Bookwild - Buddy Review of Kin by Tayari Jones with Erin Ashley

Episode Date: March 13, 2026

Erin and I both adored Kin by Tayari Jones, and we decided to do a whole episode discussing it!  The first 15ish minutes are spoiler free, so if you haven't read it yet, you can listen and decide if the vibes sound right for you.  After that, we get into everything we loved about the characters, the prose, the plotting and the themes! Kin by Tayari Jones Synopsis Vernice and Annie, two motherless daughters raised in Honeysuckle, Louisiana, have been best friends and neighbors since earliest childhood, but are fated to live starkly different lives. Raised by a fierce aunt determined to give her a stable home in the wake of her mother’s death, Vernice leaves Atlanta at eighteen for Spelman College, where she joins a sisterhood of powerfully connected Black women and marries into an affluent family. Annie, abandoned by her dissolute mother as a child, and fixated on the idea of finding her and filling the bottomless hole left by her absence, sets off on a journey that will take her into a world of peril and adversity, as well as love and adventure, and culminate in a battle for her life.   Tayari Jones Oprah Interview Tayari Jones on The Stacks Erin's Interview with ReShanda Tate about With Love From Harlem Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

Well, I am with Erin Ashley and I am so excited because while I feel like a lot of people have read Ken, you're my only like legit friend that I talk to who has read it. So I was so excited talking to you about it. And then we were like, we could probably do a whole episode about it. So that's what we're going to do. It's so excited. I know. I am too.

So you got an arc version of it, right? like you got an early galley version of it. So you read it that once. And then I actually didn't get approved, which is totally fine. So I listened to it. And I knew I was going to listen to it. So it was like Angel Pien, as everyone knows, I'm obsessed with her. I really do love Ashley J. Hobbs now.

I listen to two books with her as the narrator because I also listen to She Drinks to Light by Yasmin On Go, which is really, really, really fun. YA if anyone was looking for some of that but Ashley like narrated that one and then I listened to Ken and she narrates part of it so but then you reread it

is what you were also saying yes because I feel like sometimes with the arcs I feel like I don't know if I'm reading them differently or something because you know that you have to read them before they come out I think sometimes I'm like I don't think I've speed read through them but I think I didn't get a lot of the

depth of this book by doing that. I did actually Spotify's match thing, like their page match. So I did partly listening to it is the audiobook and then also reading it in print and going back and forth between the two. Nice. Yeah. You enjoyed it that way too. Yeah. Because I think that's like immersive reading. I feel like I, right now I feel like I'm enjoying that because I can read in the car and that could read in the bed. So I like to balance a sleeper cleans. Yeah, I feel that. I listened to it, as I said, and I had multiple moments where I was like on the treadmill or something.

I was like highlight highlight highlight. I looked. I had 43 highlights. I'm probably about the same. Yeah. It's just really, really good. Well, for anyone who does it kind of know the gist of it, the really short description is that two motherless girls.

growing up in honeysuckle, Louisiana. Okay. It was actually what I thought of first, and then all of a sudden I doubted myself. Both of them haven't had mothers since they were very, very, very young. And they are basically raised together and very close to each other. And then when they're old enough, their paths diverge.

And that's really all you need to know. Oh, and it's the 1950. in the South and they're black women. So that's that's relative to but otherwise it's one of those really I'm learning that I really really enjoy this structure for stories where it's like following two I mean I probably could do it with men too but I can't think of one that I've enjoyed yet with men but two women kind of like start out really close and then go on to be different people even just because they're different people. But then also kind of like where life takes them is different too.

So I really do like that genre or trope, whatever that would be. I do too. Yeah. Did it remind you, were there any books where you would like recommend comps for it? I have a few if you don't. Not necessarily. Like I was thinking a lot about the time difference or not the time difference, but like how it would go from one person to another.

Like obviously one thing I thought it was like Dominion, which you both read because I think it goes back and forth like that. Yes. I was also thinking of in a way, but not. It was just the multiple people narrative was the wilderness by Angela Flomelagh. But I will say that goes through different time periods and it's different people. So I found myself getting confused. But this I felt like worked really, really well. Yeah.

It made me take of dominion as well for sure. Even just like the fact that it's like exploring toxicity against women basically in the South. And then the other one. So these heathens by Mia McKenzie. It really reminded me of that one too because it's kind of the similar like coming of it. Well, these heathens is more coming of age because it's kind of all while she's 16 years old. But the historical fiction aspect of it, the like talking about women's rights, black women's rights being even different. So it remind me of that one.

And then the other one is line women of Tehran is one that I keep mentioning. And that's another, that was my first one that I read that was the concept of like two girls, their friends in that book are really, really, really close friends. and then one of them like mom marries up and so basically up to a higher class and so they're separated the same thing their lives kind of go different ways but then kind of come back together again so that it reminds me of that one too in case anyone left Lyme women in Toronto I liked that book I love it I want to read her others I have not but I've I've heard the stationary shopping is really good on audio as well. So yeah, I do want to read more of hers.

She's so cool. Yeah. But yeah, with this one, so we start off in their motherless for different reasons. We've got Denise and she's Niecy and Annie. And they both, I don't think it's a spoiler to at least talk about. like Nisi lost her mom to domestic violence. Her dad killed her mom when she was very, very, very young. And then Annie, her mom just left, just left her, which is a whole other kind of abandonment.

So they both have these abandonments. But I do think she did a really good job of making their experiences with abandonment very different. And I think that then also really affects how they navigate the world. But yeah, there was a quote kind of near the beginning where I can't remember which one of them says it. But she says I was never mothered. I was only attended to. And it made me so sad. And it's so it just like is very deep on many levels.

No. And I think even like there's a scene in the very beginning when they go. well, yes, there's a scene in the very beginning where they go to talk to the pastor. Yeah. And they're like, oh, well, my mom is, God knows where. Like, they kept saying that phrase. Yeah. I think, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting seeing how, like, when they're younger, how they talk about it, like with such an innocence, but then how it continues as they get older. Like, I think she wrote that really well. Mm-hmm. I agree.

And there's there's another, I was listening to my bookmarks before this. And there's also like a really poetic paragraph about mothers in general. And I just listened to, I don't know if you, she, Terry was on the Stacks podcast. So I just listened to that kind of last night and this morning. And so she was talking about how much it's about motherhood too. And like women who, I especially, black women I'm really thinking is the case too, who didn't necessarily want to be moms, ended up taking care of so many children. Like it just, it happened for so many ways, even if,

even if we're going back to like life on the plantation, like they were raising children that weren't their own. And so then that kind of like carries forward. But there is this really good paragraph where she even talks about how like sometimes the women who don't have children are the ones who would be the best mothers. And then someone who become, some who become mothers should have just, there's something like should have just given it up from the get-go. Like, she says something. Yeah, it's, oh, because that's literally the quote I wrote.

Okay. But this is how life works. The women who could be capable mothers too often don't want kids. And too many of those with children probably should not have, or should have probably sat that one out. Luckily, most were in between. Yeah, I related that to you, but I thought that was interesting. I know because it, I, I liked that on the sex podcast, she asked her about, oh, she, she had a question about it where she was kind of like this book is about motherhood, which sounds weird when you say like these two motherless girls.

But it is about all, it's about who they kind of find themselves attracted to as mother figures later on in their life. and just about what it's like to have someone raising you who like does care about you. Like it's not your mom and she didn't want to be a mom to anyone either. And so I feel like the amount of layers she was able to talk about with like mothers and daughters is really impressive. No, I think that's true. And when she was on Oprah's podcast for like the Oprah's book club, she said she said like she kept thinking about this scene where Aunt Irene had said

like at least your mom died because she's always questioning where her mom is. Yes. And she said that's not fair for a little girl to have to do every day. And I was like, I'm so sad to think about. I know. Because like my mom is actually a victim of that

or not a victim. But her mom gave her away to her dad. So like my mom technically was like a motherless child even though she was mothered by like her aunt and her grandmother. So as I was reading this, a lot of Annie kind of reminded me of my mom. Yeah. Yeah. That's rough.

Mm-hmm. Not having, yeah. What's the other thing that I was thinking about? Oh, yeah. And Annie has, there's some quote about how she basically wakes up every morning, hoping today will be the day that she, like, stumbles upon her mom and goes to bed every night. like devastated that it still didn't happen and I'm just like oh I do think it plays out like it plays out like her searching is like so important to her and I feel like it's what it's what leads to

her ending which I won't say anything about we'll talk about spoilers eventually but it is there there was a there's a quote too about she's like she's been saving us seat for her mom, her whole life. And because someone's kind of explaining it to Bernice, I don't know if it's her mother-in-law at that point. It's kind of what's making me think. But she's just the concept that like, Annie's been going through her life, like, oh, someone is supposed to be in the seat.

I think they're alive. And one day they're going to fill it. And so it kept her from being able to create relationships with anyone. because it was so she was trying to be hopeful but was so sad about it no she was always in a constant state of grief yeah i felt so bad for her and she just wanted to know where she was um what else what else kind of from the beginning i don't know but they obviously do start going on very different paths um i don't i don't think it's too spoilery to say that uh like, Vernice ends up going to college at Spelman.

And hers is kind of like, her approach for the most part is like, I'm going to move forward with my life. I'm going to figure out how to make a life that I enjoy, like, figure out what I need to do to make that happen. And then Annie really is, like we've kind of talked about just chasing crumbs, hoping that she's going to finally run into her mom. But yeah, how did you how did you feel about like that phase like that once they kind of leave honeysuckle? I enjoyed it.

I think I really enjoyed seeing Vernice's journey. So like even like her with what's your name, Josette, Joette. Joette. Yeah. Joette. Like I like seeing her progression with Joette, even though that was its own thing. I like seeing her with Franklin. And even like I feel like she had so many.

any like mothering things like even with miss mcern henry um but like on the opposite contrast there was such a distinction indifference with annie um and i think like as i was reading i felt like i felt like i liked nisi more than i liked annie yeah but i think it was because i always felt sad for annie but i always felt interested in rennie's that's a good point i'm trying to think yeah hers she she she had uh her niece or nices she she had more uh like i hate to say progress but that there's kind of that it is what's happening she's able to make more progress because she's literally not stuck like she's i don't have a mom but there's no there's no finding her mom since she's passed um but annie was like i i just she was just i mean she is a high

hot mess. But I did love her. And I just feel for her. Like you can just feel how much she wants someone to even just like mostly unconditionally love her even if it's not a mother figure. Yeah. She always seemed like she was like treading through mud and could never get herself. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, God, that was so good. I don't know what. That just came to me. I loved it. That's a perfect way to describe it. every now and then you surprise yourself i was like oh girl yeah but she always seemed kind of like stuck yeah yeah she did i feel like there's probably not much more we can talk about without spoilers at this

point um so if you have not read it please go read it if we've convinced you that it sounds really good you can go read it um which also is why i was like we'll talk about comps so like if any of those books interest you and then what we just talked about then you're probably going to love this one um so more spoilery so we do have uh Annie ends up like essentially working it's not a whorehouse that sounds way too hard what it is that is what it is um and I even felt like that was like somehow just like fitting for her her brand of chaos too. Yeah. Well, because she was also a teenager working in a bar. Right. Like that progression made sense. Because I think even like going to her working in the bar, how she was always trying to find belonging. Like even how she thought the man who owned the bar was her dad for a period of time. Yeah. I was like, oh, such an interesting. I mean, I know why because her mom came there, but still. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, you feel how much she's trying to fill those roles. Because yeah, she's like, see someone. one that seems like it might be her mom. And then he reacts a certain way. So she's even like,

what if that was my dad? And I'm like, oh, girl. Oh, girl. I am sorry. B. And then the, then even she's the one with Bobo. Bobo. Yeah. Uh, I do, I did love him. Like, I understand we're in the spoiler section. He does get to a point where he does get to a point where he's kind of just like, oh my gosh, you care so much about your mom. And so even kind of to that point that I heard the author talking about, it's like her obsession with finding her mom is making it, it's making it impossible for even have like the relationship with him that she wants to have. And I did love him, but I also, I understood why he was like, I can't, I can't really keep doing this with you, but I was also mad at him on behalf of the beginning, of course.

I was very mad at him. Yeah. And again, I'm kind of like you. Like, I get why he was that way. I feel like he was patient with her until he couldn't be. Yeah. But it's also like how, like, at least if her mom died, like, like, if her mom did die, then it's easier to help her put the pieces back together.

But it's like she's trying to put pieces together. that you can't see. So it's also like, how do you help someone that's grieving or looking for something that it doesn't seem like it's in reach either. Right. I know. Yeah, it would get, it would get difficult to technically be around it. We do, we do get this moment where I don't even know exactly what the tip was or like the reason she's going to this other home. but she finds these two men and one of them tells her that her mom passed a month prior a month, right, is what he says.

I think it's a month. That was devastating. I felt so bad for her because, again, you can't tell there's not like a clear-cut feeling when you're reading it of like, oh, this is absolutely going to end with her, like, getting to meet her mom. Like you're you're like maybe she will, but just as much maybe she won't. And so I couldn't tell how it was going to go. And then when she gets that close. Yeah. And then finds out she's dead.

And we're in the spoiler section. But then she does all. Then she does kind of finally get to officially grieve because it's like, okay, I can't keep looking like this is over. it's done and then she finds out it was a lie and I'm just like how poor poor Annie she was just getting yanked around the entire story no and I feel bad for her because going to like the first time when she thought that her mom had died that note that she wrote to her grandmother like I guess when I was reading it I hadn't like I don't think I realized how much the length of time had been since she had ran away and how she was saying like she was trying to make sure she was something that her mom would be proud of. But the way she like talks about like basically not being who she wanted to be to see her mom. Like I felt bad for that.

But then also there's like I'm trying to find the quote because yeah, girl, I was like, I was highlighting the love it when I was reading. I know. I was hoping I would have time to transcribe all of my notes, but I didn't end up getting to. Man, because I was reading, um, Oh, yeah, there's, yeah, because there was like this thing, like they have met a lady, her in a baby doll were working in the bar. And this lady comes in who is like a, well, I took her to be an alcoholic, but no one said that. But the lady came in and she said she wanted like the Cuba Libra. Oh, yeah.

I should know that because. But she said, oh, I found it. got on it because I thought this was an interesting quote but it was like the lady had said like girl was wrong with you and baby doll has had her mom died and then the lady had said um she said like that your mom was an angel basically she said when your mom is up there in heaven nothing is she said nothing is there to stop her from loving you not a man not a job not whatever she wanted to do but then she says this thing about when the sun shines you know that that's the love on you and then the next day when she woke up it was sunny outside so she thought it was like her mom

shining down on her and then seeing that her mom actually did not die and remembering that she said that that like broke my heart because i was like she had moved so forward i know and it it she does such a good job of writing that face because it's exactly what you said you're like you feel like you finally hit catharsis for her like she does there there are some great scenes of her kind of talking about like being able to go to the bar and just like enjoy her life more because she's not stuck in a kind of like a hamster wheel essentially um and you're so relieved for her and you're like okay good she's gonna be able to move on from this who knows what's gonna happen for her life now and Tyra just couldn't let us have that which I understand. I haven't heard, I saw some of the Oprah interview, but I haven't finished it. Does, did anyone ask her?

Okay, well, we're in the spoilers. Did anyone ask her if she had a version where Annie lived? Okay, I haven't heard. I haven't seen anything. Oh, you're okay. No. Yeah, I haven't seen anyone ask. But I did wonder, because you've probably seen the,

because I also saw the beginning of the Ophra interview, and then she also mentioned it on the stacks, but this was not the book she was contracted to write. And so she talks about how, like, she was supposed to write something contemporary about gentrification in Atlanta. And on the stacks, it was kind of hilarious how much she was like, I said for years, like,

I am not a historical fiction writer. That is not me. So, like, she was even shocked that this was the story that started coming to her. So then that kind of had me one. I was wondering if Tracy would ask her if there had ever been another. Because it's like it sounds like this book kind of surprised her. And she just kind of had to follow the ideas that she was having.

So I did wonder if Annie was ever going to live. I wasn't expecting that she was going to die. I really was. You didn't think she was going to? Once we got to the abortion and the fact that it was like going to not be a safe one, I was concerned. But it was like at no point while I was reading it did I think it was going to have a tragic ending. Well, yeah.

And I think the way she died because she said that she bled out but there was no blood or something. Yeah, it was all internal. And I think like I don't know. This is like a baby a reach, but I kind of like thought of it as full circle. So like I did think she was going to die because I couldn't see either she was going to die or she was. going to move to like Alabama or something like random yeah I couldn't see her because her story had been so sad throughout like she had pockets of joy here and there but I couldn't see her in being joyful like I thought it would be something or like either I thought she was going to have like

kids and then be like a better mother to them or something like that's kind of where I thought we were headed and I agree because it was like we knew she was maybe going to go be with a niece for a little bit. Yeah. But I agree. I kind of thought like she's not going to be able to totally merge or I guess assimilate in some ways. I mean, it is like anyway. And I yeah, I didn't think she would exist in the same world as Nisi like long term.

But I agree. I thought we might get that experience where it's like she's going to choose to do something different as a mom. Well, yeah. And I think the thing that is nice of how she died, I mean, it's not nice as she died. But like, I think like for one, I thought of her like dying and bleeding internally. I thought of it like how, you know, like how niece would cry and she would cry with no tears coming out of her eyes or no, it was maybe it was Annie.

I can't remember. But one of them cried, oh, it was Nisi because she would never cry externally. So like I thought of it kind of like full circles. somehow they both kind of had like a internal thing but then I thought also like you die in a house a cradle and how they kept calling each other a cradle and it's with your like your kin but you're like chosen sister I thought it was also that part ending what that I yeah and I don't I didn't dislike the ending either it was sad but I had like the exact same feelings about it um like she did die with her kin and when she's getting the abortion they ask like next of kin and she decides to put

me as her next of kin and the other fascinating part i was talking to someone else who was like i felt like the ending was really abrupt and it kind of is like it kind of is i understand how like that part kind of happens kind of quickly and then we're just like done so i had food in the crock five. Oh, that's okay. At first I was like, is it me? No, that's okay. But I was telling her, I was like, I think, because like the other thing that I would tell

anyone who's asking if they should read it, this is like, to me, very much literary historical fiction. And I think what I've learned now that I've read more literary fiction is like the plot beats aren't the same. And like it doesn't always adhere to the same structure. as like some of the like quote on quote like maybe like mainstream storytelling structures that we think of. And so that's I was like yeah, like this was definitely a literary historical fiction where you are sitting with these characters. You're sitting with the times. You're sitting. You're there to like kind

of experience those things. And all of that to say when we were talking about the ending, I was kind of saying that part to her. And then I also was saying, um, was saying, there's a scene and it's a few chapters before when Nisi is I think living with his parents before they're married or they get married and they just live with the parents while their house is being built I think. And so her mother-in-law is basically like teaching her how to keep house and like going through everything. And when they're in one of the bedrooms, she talks about how it's such a beautiful act of

love to get to care for the bed and the sheets that your loved ones will be in. And then Annie, like, Annie passes away, but she passes away, like in the sheets. I like how you pointed out, maybe even, like, we hear cradle friend over and over again. And then she kind of is, in some ways, like, swaddled in, in Nisi's love, at least at the end. And there was that whole, there's a whole passage about like making a bed being something that you do out of love. So I was like, I mean, it's tragic, but there's so much coming together. That gave me a little chill because that does make sense because there's also a part where she says and she's laying in the sheets that I handwashed myself.

Yes. I love your point too about the internal versus external because I think like you're saying, like the not being able to cry and then the not actually externally bleeding out. I also think it's kind of an illusion to whether it was on purpose or not. They both have wounds, very deep wounds, but they're invisible wounds. Like on the outside, people are not, people are never, I mean, we're never aware of everything that someone's going through. But from the outside, no one would immediately know that they both have like these deep psychological wounds. I feel like that was a

I liked your point about that that even like dying with the internal bleeding is even like another version of like not getting to externalize your pain essentially. Yeah and it's still like still something that she carried with her because I think I think the way like

Tahrari wrote so much of it too it's like the way that she writes about their feelings or like their internal things I thought was so interesting because she even says like um vernees is like she said she had when annie dies she had like under or she said like her tears were underground or something like i can't remember how she said it but like the way that she wrote their internal battles like you said like i just felt like it was such an interesting detail like i don't know if i've really read stuff like that before i really like thought of it in

context like full circle and the way that i did with this book but i thought it was just superb writing And it really, it really was. I finished the book on the treadmill and I was just like crying. I was just walking. So it was okay. But when it like got to like, oh no, she actually is dead, I was like, oh no. I'm going to miss her. Well, yeah, because you know what else I thought was so interesting because she had already died. And then like when she was dying or like at the end, those chapters became really, really short. But there was like when she died, she had the chapter. She had the chapter. after that she told nobody that she had saw her mom and her mom came into the bar and I was like oh my god like that's all she really wanted because we also saw like her mom left her right but

she seemed like she still loved her in a way because even how she named her other daughter the exact same name as her oh god how did I forget about that was eerie can you imagine though like being as I can actually oh

well not the same way because I well and with Harlem from love with love from Harlem um Adam Clayton Powell he names his other son the exact same name as his other son like his other son didn't exist and that's like it is diabolical I know I need to listen to that one too because I know you loved it and anyone who wants to hear an interview with author Aaron has one on hers that's uh yes that is diabolical though. That is that scene just like when she like asked what her name is she's like Annie I was like oh like stabbed to the heart no but it wasn't just Annie it was Annie Kay yeah which is literally her name and then she said oh and she was swaddling her brother on her too so it's like

you got rid of me but then you had other kids and then they were going to church or something yeah it was terrible there was the other thing that I thought was really fascinating from the interview with Tarry was she mentioned that character's names should say nothing about them and it should say everything about the parents and I was like how have I never heard any author point that out that is like so brilliant and then her point was like Vernice she still wanted to have her give her a name that it like sounded kind of like the region and of the times and something thing that like a mother who loved their daughter at that time would name her and then she was sorry to anyone named Annie but she was like and then Annie is just kind of like yeah here's the name

I mean she's right though when you think about it like it is just kind of like call her Annie but I thought that was such a cool point that like characters names say more about their parents than themselves no I thought that was cool and also how she said that it was so many bees initially so then she changed her to a V. I was like, oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I thought that was a good point to you. I've heard that every now and then where authors will say, like, even if they get to like the edit phase. And then the editor is like, you have a John and a James and a Jamie. And like, you need to differentiate a little bit. And it probably is easy when you're writing it. They're so distinct to you. But yeah, when you're a reader, like first picking it up, it's a lot of names

to remember. Yeah, but I wonder how that changes how the book is captured or like their process, because you get so attached to the person that you're writing. Right. If her name was like Sarah, then you change her name to Isabel. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I said that two names, but it seemed like it would just be like, would it take away the essence to them as they for who they were writing? Yeah. I don't know. Let's ask someone someday. that we're interviewing like did you change the name because I have a follow up question

but it would be interesting to know yeah yeah that detail was fascinating and it I'm sure there are because you've you we've kind of seen in like movies where

part of the plot is like finding your biological parent whether it's like she just went straight to adoption or she she left you you do run into that sometimes where then they do have a life and it's like it's hard to imagine how you wouldn't take it personally yourself as the child of that person but then like when I step outside of it completely like if a to talk about these heathens kind of if like a 16 year old girl gets

pregnant and she's like this is not the right time for me to be a mom or I can't like I'm not going to have the means to be a good mom. But I want to go the adoption route. And then later, if she's in her 20s, not saying you have to be in your 20s to do this, but like imagining a world where she's in her 20s and then does get married and is like, oh, I do want to start this life. When you're in that perspective, I can understand that too from her perspective or from a mother's perspective. But it's like, it's so, it's so, it would be so pain. to be the child finding that out. Yeah.

When I like look at my mom's experience because that's the only thing I know, she like, her mom tried to like come around once she, I think, had like a judgment call because she did have other kids. And so like my, because my mom was raised like her dad and his mother and like her family there. Okay. And sometimes they would be like, well, she could see her. But like my mama go to see her.

and she like wouldn't show up and stuff like that. So eventually they were like no. And I think for my mom, like my mom had such a great life without that. That's good. But I could see like the constant back and forth if Haddy kept coming back around and then leaving. Like that seemed like that would be more damaging than the kid to the kid. I think so too. Then I mean, even though for her, the loss of her and knowing that she's still alive was also something.

But right. Yeah. I think it would be better. to get lost. Yeah. No, I know what you mean, though. Because it's like, it's all the, you even hear, it happens more with dads, I think, is what you hear more frequently.

But like the, oh, he does want to spend time with me and you get excited and you're like, I'm going to see my mom or my dad on this day. And then they just don't show up again. That's where you're getting those layers of abandonment. And it's happening more than once. I feel like that's got to be just so difficult. But I think it was interesting that she did it from the mom perspective, as you say, the dad perspective. Because like while that happens, it's not that frequent.

I think like there's a term for deadbeat dads, like, because it happens so frequently. Yep. But I think like the beauty in the way she wrote it is because it, like, I do think it helps you think of like how you could be parented or how you could be loved. for someone who doesn't necessarily have to give you birth because then it's also sometimes it could be like a deeper core because you're choosing to love you versus yeah having to love you yes which is the part um a found family that's also so prevalent in this story and that is another trope or plot moment that I will love until the day I die uh yeah I just I just love that part so much and it is

it's fascinating the way that she kind of does it because there's the it probably didn't feel like found family with aunt or aunt Irene um because like she was there but it's like did it feel like family necessarily and then i can't think of what the like the um she's not a pimp well she is a pimp but there's normally or a madam i can't think of what her i can't think of what her the character's name is. Lula. Yes, yes. I'm like, I just heard them talking about this this morning.

Like she even is a mother figure for Annie and in some ways it works, even though not all of her advice is like 100% the best advice. But you see kind of different versions of found family for both of them. But then they do end up together at the end. And I, which is we've talked about. It is tragic. but they at least she does make it back to the person who really probably is her most found family. But I think that's the other interesting thing with Bernice's story in general and the Joette stuff that you brought up. So she did kind of have a relationship with her roommate, like a sexual relationship.

Anyone who's listening at this point, I'm assuming knows that part. but it always feels so weird saying the spoilery parts but then she kind of goes on i mean she does she gets married to franklin instead and i thought that was all really fascinating because one you you could want you do kind of wish she could go be with joette like at least i feel that way a little bit but then there's multiple reasons that it's difficult like homophobia in general. But then like the fact that I think Vernice's story is about she was determined to to kind of be like, oh, I don't have my mom or my dad in my life.

I'm still going to have a good life. Like I'm going to figure out how to feel like safe and kind of like established enough. Like I'm not going to let that keep keep me from that essentially. But then there are sacrifices to it because I'm sure she loves Franklin in a certain way, but I don't know if it's, I don't know if he would have been endgame for her if she hadn't so badly wanted to like establish a life that felt safe. And that's not bad. I think that's another cool thing she did with this story is there are lots of reasons people get married. And not all of them are bad just because it's not like I am. so madly in love with this person. No, and I think like two things, or maybe like four things. I don't know. I think one thing with like Franklin, I think she did love Franklin.

I don't think she was in love with Franklin. And I think Franklin knew that for himself because he even says like, yeah, he wasn't sure if she was with her because it was like a love affair with his mom or essentially I can't remember what he said. Because his mom kind of arranged it. Mm-hmm. And his mom loved her. even to the point that she told her to call her mother. I think she was able to get that love that she missed from her mom there.

And it's also a different love than she got from Aunt Annie because Aunt Annie always said like, we're not Aunt Anne-Aine. Yeah. So many people this book, guys. But she always kept saying like, oh, I don't know how to speak to kids, like with different things. And I think Mrs. McHenry had such like a love in, like, like adoration for her. Yeah.

And then I think another thing that I noticed is, because there was that one scene that I thought she really loved him and then it just kind of dwindled. But you remember he was in, he was like, oh, I don't ever talk to you about work. And then he was like, but I'm going to tell you about work. And he told her about that guy,

I mean, that lady who died because the store owner beat her up in front of her kids. And I did cry in that part because the kid, wrote that thing and said like we're two peas without a pot or something like yeah I was like oh that's so sad but she said he said that he thought of her that's why he was crying yeah and then because she said I this is like a really weird thing to remember but she said um because he was crying and she took a piece of his or she took his tear and put it on her lips and she said put it on my dry lip to taste it or something yeah yeah that's romantic in a way.

I know. I did think it was weird. Her thing was Joette because, for one, I think it was progressive. Because if you think about it, Joette told her parents that she was lesbian because of that perfume thing. Yeah. But I will say the end part, I was confused because she told her husband. But I think because that part, like, I feel like Hattie, not Hattie.

I feel like Annie. I'm getting out of her ways. I think Annie's was very like closure in a way that her mom's story wasn't. I think with Annie, no, with her knees, I feel like I was confused on what happened because he hugged her. Yeah. But I was like, did he hug her like he was fine with it and they moved forward or like what? I couldn't figure that part out. Yeah, it was kind of left.

It was somewhat ambiguous. Yeah, I squenched my eyes on that. You're like, wait a second. We need some follow-up, Miss Jones. Yeah. Well, I think that was like, because she said she purposely left it open-ended so you could think what you want. Yeah. But I didn't think that Annie's was open-ended.

I just felt like Bernice's was. Yeah. I know. It is interesting to think about like what does Vernice go on? to do after those experiences because it's like obviously with like franklin's work uh i could see her wanting to get more involved after um after annie basically dies because of lack of access to like healthcare kind of stuff so it it does make me wonder like does she become more of an activist not that she has to just because that happened to her or does she

she get more passionate about certain issues after losing Annie, but I don't know. Yeah, she still has a long time because if you think about it, I think they're like 23, 20 years or something. Yeah. And she still hasn't. That was the other thing. I thought it, well, and they kind of, kind of float the idea. I thought Annie really might give birth and Vernice would adopt since they were not able to have kids. and there is there's like a kind of like a not like a throwaway sentence but there is like some

little sentence where someone says to annie like why don't you like give it to renese and she's just like no but i i did wonder about that at one point especially because the other thing that's so heartbreaking that i also still think thematically fits is she's kind of happy after like we talked about she kind of gets to finally grieve her mom when she thinks her mom is dead and she's kind of happy and maybe things are kind of going well with bobo and then she finds out that her mom is alive and it just like throws her into a worse spiral than she's ever been in and then that and then bobo leaves her and then that is why she sleeps with her boss yeah and he just Like in my head, he seemed grubby because I'm kissing you and then you pulled, I mean.

Go right to it. Yeah. Yeah. And there's even a line basically about how like, like the fact that someone, like something about having sex with someone helps her take her mind off things is like essentially kind of where she's coming from. But it's, it's devastating because you, you know how much pain she is in and that that's why she's doing it. And so then her death is even directly related to how much hurt she carried about her mom her entire life. If she doesn't find out her mom was actually alive or if she had never even found out anything, she wouldn't have like made that reckless decision or the, it is reckless. I don't think that's judgmental to say it was reckless to sleep with her married boss. Well, because I think the thing that also is weird or not weird, but it was reckless because, sorry, I'm going back to another quote I wrote down. No, do it. Yeah.

There was this part when Bobo was going to leave her the first time. And she like bade him not to leave her. So he didn't leave her. And but he still felt bad that she saw her mom by herself or something like that. And then he said or no, because this is what it said. She said, or she didn't say it. It says it. Yeah.

I forgave him in the long tradition of women who have only known one man. He was singular in my bed and in my spirit and he was sorry and I was sorry too. That was like her only person and then to have that experience with him, which was not an ideal experience. And then also to like it came full circle because then also to have a child like her mom in the same type of way. I know. And she said, I'm just like my mom. trifling and then I was like no she is in some ways uh and that it that is what's so tough about her story is like so for example when I was in therapy I was so I was so scared of any part

of myself being anything like my mom even something as benign as we both twirl our hair when were tired like something like that that is just like neutral in general i used to freak out about anything that i discovered that made me similar to her and i remember being in one of my sessions where she was like you are still being controlled by her if your obsession is to not be anything like her and so you're i know she was a fantastic therapist um and and so she was like so you're when when you're trying so hard to like remove yourself from her by also like not allowing these like neutral things to just be what they are neutral things like you're still engaged in this control relationship whether you're recognizing it or not and I was like oh my god you're completely right and also I like I like to

with things that are difficult for me personally I love to try to find a black and white solution or understanding and it's not it's not how life is um and i'm a lot better at it now than i was in my 20s but yeah if there's high stress which i think that's actually that's actually something everyone wants to do when there's really high stress stress the concept of seeing things clearly helps you feel like maybe there's some control over it um so that's where it's it's so sad with her story is like she she wasn't directly her mom that's that's that's i'm absolutely the truth. But she did end up following it.

And some of it was because she was so obsessed with wanting to find her mom is kind of what even led her there. Because like if she hadn't been so obsessed, if she hadn't been yanked around like, oh, she's dead. No, she's not dead. She probably doesn't sleep with the bar owner. And she probably doesn't need an abortion. And she probably doesn't die.

So it's so sad that. But thematically it works. There are people who figuratively or literally are dying over what happened to them as kids, basically. Oh, that's like most of our population. I mean, and that's why, like, I think therapy is great, but also, like, sometimes, too, like, my grandmother would always say, like, be mindful of who you surround yourself or who you look at because then sometimes you start absorbing some of their things. and I think it's like so much that she tried to do to like figure out the reason

that I think when she was looking to figure out the reason I won't say she was like manifesting it for herself but she was like bringing it to herself. It was the energy she was attracting. Yeah. Poor girl. It makes me so sad all over again.

Yeah, it was sad. I know. And how I do want to know what her niece was doing though. Well, I mean, she probably wouldn't be alive today at this point, but she could be because this is like 1950s. That's true. If she's in her 20s or maybe we made it to, yeah, we probably made it to the 60s then right later in their life. Yeah. She's probably like, my parents were born in 1962 and they are in their 60s. I mean, yeah. Yeah, she could be in her 80s. no she could be in her 70 oh no because she's 23 she's like she's in her 20s in the 60s that's why I was like I mean she could be alive but might not be she may be like 93 yeah yeah that was such bad mad

born in like 64 and 66 too so kind of close hmm but you know that um Franklin's probably dead yeah because he was 33 yeah we're like who always did dead. Well, what if the baby, well, no, I'd say, what if the baby actually didn't die? It wouldn't have been a baby because it was only like, I think she was two weeks late. Yeah. She wasn't super pregnant yet. Which, I mean, it was interesting because I also listened to this one after I listened to Judge Stone by Viola Davis and James Patterson. Oh, yeah. It's not in the synopsis, but I've seen her doing press and talking about the fact that it's very, you know, the whole case that Judge Stone, the main character, and Viola narrates it. So if you all love her voice or if you loved listening to her memoir, this is one to listen to. But Judge Stone, this like huge case that comes about is because a girl 13 or 14 who was raped is pregnant. And there's a doctor in the town. who sometimes can help like under the table because it's illegal at that point. And so she even, someone comes to her with this girl. This is all at the beginning. This is all in the first 10%. Someone comes to her with the girl and is like, you have to help her.

And she's like, I can't do this. Like I will get in so much trouble. And the woman is like, no, you won't. Like it'll be fine. We'll be able to handle it. And so she ends up doing it because what, in my opinion, I know there are people that don't feel this way. But when you have a child that young who has been raped especially and is now pregnant,

like how do you turn that away? Like in my opinion, I would be like, yeah, like she deserves to have this choice, essentially. So she does help her. And then the next day, the girl, like, externally bleeds out everywhere in her home and dies. And so now the case that Judge Stone is having to preside over is all about abortion in a very small town that has very strong feelings against it. It's a really, really, really good book. And you can feel how much how much of Viola is in it. And she has said that in some interviews too.

Like the way that it approaches actually talking about like extreme poverty and the fact that there are still so many, like it's a contemporary story. there are so many people still living in poverty the way that she describes it and i think there are a lot of people who don't realize that um so she tackled so many issues with this book but it was wild because i listened to that one then i started listening to kin and i was which i didn't know until the end that abortion was going to be such a big part of it but i think there when people get angry and say abortion is not health care reproductive right to reproductive rights or productive health care is not health care. These are the stories where it's like it is and they're going to happen and more people

are going to be in danger because they're going to be doing them in like, for lack of a better word, like black market situations is the way that they're going to have it happen. And so both of these books were just reminding me so much of like this is this is why it still matters to like let people choose because they might still just choose and then die. they can't be like monitored fairly. Yeah, I remember, I mean, this is a twist, but I was watching this movie when I was a kid. It was called another girl from the IRT, I think. Okay.

And she was like a teen and she was going like she wanted to do an abortion, but she couldn't pay for it. So she put a hanger of there. Yeah. She did a hangar and every time you hear those worries, I'm like, oh, God. Yeah. Well, that was like my earliest memory seeing something like that. Yeah. Like I think people need to choose what they want to do for themselves.

I don't think the government or people should be able to say that you can't. I know. But yes, but you. Generally, I understand having limits. Like, but like at least until eight weeks, it should be your decision in my opinion. Yeah. And it just sucks. with you. Yeah. And I think a lot of people don't, I think I'm trying to give grace to some of these people.

I think some people really do think that adoption can save it all. And it's not the case. Like, there are not enough social services in place to act like that is the one solution and that you should just deal with it and just use that or whatever. It's not there. It's kind of like, I'm jumping. But when, when the snap funding was cut so aggressively, I saw a few people being like, well, and this is why the church helps hungry people. And I'm like, never once has that been enough. If the church was good enough, like to fill that gap, which is great. And I know there are churches that do help food insecurity. And that's great. It's never been enough, though. So that still is the point of the government. Like that's that's the point in an ideal world is that there are social

services. Yeah. And there should be. Yeah. So yeah, reading both of those was just like very, very timely, even though one of them is historical fiction and sad. But also good. Like you do get, you get the love of sisterhood, even though they're not like directly sisters. It's just also a very sad ending. Yeah. Well, and I do think like one thing I saw to hear you talk about on the stacks was that she still, she was curious if people like got humor from out of the book. Oh yeah. I liked that conversation. Same. And I felt like there was still some things that happened in the book that were funny to me. Like I felt myself chuckling. And I like I probably would say I chuckled more than I cried like there was parts where I was really sad but for the most part it was just like it was a fun

read but it was also a beautiful read and it was a thinking read I felt like I kind of got all the emotions from reading it I agree yeah I really didn't cry much until it's very concentrated in the end is the part that was like pulling at my heartstrings more but I did I was definitely like the sarcastic humor kind of or maybe even sardonic. I always appreciate that kind of humor. I felt like there was a lot of it for sure. Yeah. And I wouldn't have thought to put it in my review either. So I kind of understand how she's like, how did people not say it? But like I probably wouldn't say it initially. No. And there's just like pockets. Because it's like when she like there'll be a dialogue and then it'll be like their

internal thinking. Yeah. Because even like when Bernice was talking to Joette like at the end and she She was like, oh, she's trying to play cat and mouse with me. But like it was like stuff like that. And I was just like it made me chuckle. But it was like that type of thing. And even like when Clyde proposed to baby doll like in his unconventional way. Yeah. Because of the show.

And I could see the guys like. Yes. What's his name? Lenny Luster or something. I could see like his teeth being messed up. Like from the description. That made me laugh too. But yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. There's basically a scene where Annie, not Annie. Yes, no. Danny. Baby doll is like flirting with some other guys at the, we're great with names today at the bar. And essentially he gets mad. And then the dude's like, I mean, she's not yours.

Then he's like, marry me. Lisa, we're engaged. She said we are. Yeah. Yeah. It's very men coded. men slightly eye roll coated

Yeah, it was Which they're in that you're not married Yeah And she's like Okay Because she is who she is too That is a nice thing We don't have like

There's not a single character Where you're like And that character Made perfect decisions Like it is a book that allows People to be very very human Yeah Which I also loved it

I did I loved it I almost went to, Hey, Ari was in Chicago last Sunday and I was thinking about it. I had just enough work that I was like, I don't know if six hours in the car works very well for me right now. So I didn't. But then I listened to the interview on the stacks and I was like, damn it, I really feel like like she would have been really fun to listen to live. But at least we have the sacks. No, and you have to listen to the Oprah one because over asked her this question. It was good. Oprah asks, I'm trying to say ask.

I'm not worried about it. She says, because she asked her something about like how she creates these people if she like goes through the world like listening to conversations or thinking of stuff. Like I can't remember the way she said it. But to hear he's answer was so good to Oprah's. Like I feel like I have it in my notes somewhere. You know, I've been writing down all these quotes. But yeah. It was such an interesting.

thing that she said that that actually like stuck with me because I do oh she said oh well girl it's on in here I have a thing that says to Mary Jones quotes from Oprah but it's no quotes oh I've done that before I start like a note for the book that I start and then I'm like I did not add anything no because I was trying to be so organized because after the last time we talked your notes were so organized I was like oh I'm going to like Kate and organize and I have stuff all over the place. Oh yeah, it happens. But just listen to that interview. It was really good. Okay. For everyone who's listening to this and has heard us talk about the stacks and the Oprah interview and your substack with love from Harlem with love from Harlem. Yes. Yes. We're great with titles and

names. Those leaks will be there. So you all can go listen to it too. But I yeah, I loved this book. I don't think I will forget. These are one of those, like, characters where, like, a lot of this book will stick in my head for a very long time. Same. Some of it because it's just unique, but then also just because it was so emotionally resonant in so many different ways. No, I'm aligned. Yeah. Once again, we are aligned.

Have you read anything else recently that you really loved? Um. Or that you didn't really love. Let me look at my story graph Because I've actually been using it I have Oh you know what I did read That I didn't love

And it really actually broke my heart I read Judy Blumes Oh yeah Her autobiography I think And That's so great So as a person who reads a lot of biographies Or like memoirs

I thought The story of her was fine. But I feel like I wanted to know more about like her writing process or like I don't like to be honest, I don't really actually know what I wanted to know. I did want to know more about like forever because you remember when that came out. It was so controversial like the pregnancy thing. Yeah.

So like we learned that she came to writing later in life. We learned about her origin story. But I feel like this is the thing for me is I guess the people. people who you're in relations with, like in relationships with whether romantic, platonic, they shape a lot of who you are as a person. But like, there were so many extra people who I didn't care about that I was just kind of like, okay, I don't care. And then it's like some of it felt like a continuous interview, which also isn't bad,

but like I saw now that she's not doing press and stuff for it. So I don't really know, like I saw something about her agent saying that they're not going on the press tour. so I don't know if it was like, hmm, contentious or not. Like, I think the writing was good,

though. It just was boring. Yes. That's honest. You do feel like you would want to know about a writer, a writer's process, though, in a biography about them.

I feel like that's like a fair thing to kind of expect at some point. Like, yeah. It's like one of the first things I ask authors typically. Well, and I think if you read like a memoir, Memoirs about authors are so interesting because I wrote, I mean, I wrote one about

Bernardine Everestro. I can't remember her. Okay. But she wrote girl, woman. Oh, dang. She wrote that book, Girl, Woman, Lady. I don't know. Oh, Other.

Yes, she says Girl and Other. Yeah. I was a lady. She has a memoir that she wrote, and it was so interesting. And I didn't even like know her like that. I mean, I don't know any of these people. But right. I didn't know her.

You are like a fan going or like a super fan going in. Mm-hmm. But I found hers to be so interesting. I feel like I would want to see one from like, I feel like one from Zadie Smith on her writing process. I feel like would be really interesting. I have to, I have not read any of her books yet. And I need to because I have a bunch of them like white teeth.

Love it. And on beauty, where the two that I have on my TBR. I need to. I have so much I need to read. I know you do. What is on your, what's on your next read?

Okay. Is your next read? So I think I'm counting this because I've only read like one page of it so far. So this is basically my next one called, you should have been nicer to my mom. Oh, that's cute. I can't. I find it because I just want to make sure I, again, I am just at the beginning of it, so I can't remember. Vincent Dorado. Yes.

Oh, this is your lane. It's horror. Yes. So, yeah, it's, you should have been, oh, and it should have. That's why I was putting a contraction. That's why I wasn't finding it. So the short synopsis here is demons clash with inheritance claims. As secrets unfold and violence is unleashed over 12 harrowing hours trapped in a house with the worst thing imaginable family. I mean, I'm remembering why I requested this one so quickly. So yeah, it is like the main character, Zayamora, has not been around her family for a very long time. her mom passes and then we have kind of the tropey setup of having to go back to be with your family to hear the reading of a will and then as you heard even in that one sentence description there are

some family secrets going on and it's kind of short it's 250 pages I just realized the audio book because I'm listening to it is like eight hours um so not super long but yeah it's like it's up my lane with because it says a modern gothic horror which is kind of fun because sometimes gothic is not modern um so that's what that's kind of what i'm starting next what i just finished i do have to go grab this book because it's so beautiful we have to do first last current so this was my last one oh yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes where the wildflowers grow by Tara Shelton Harris, for anyone who couldn't see. Look at these.

Beautiful. There are flowers. It's not just like the vertical sprayed edges. It is all of it. And the flowers are just so pretty. So I think this is the prettiest book I have ever owned. What I loved about this one. So the setup is like Leandro is the main character.

And she is being transported. from one prison to another with some other prisoners on a bus and a deer runs in front of them and so the driver like swerves to miss them and they topple off a cliff into the water and everyone dies except her. So she was always a strong swimmer and that's like part of why she was able to actually like get out and swim to the surface. But now she's kind of she's dealing with the like the trauma of seeing all these people die like there's even a guard there that she who was very kind to her so she's kind of having to deal with this grief right from the get go and we don't know why she was in prison and so there's kind of a mystery feeling to it even though this is very much like a 480 page

literary fiction i would not call it mystery but we don't know why she went to prison we just know that before she was caught for something. She actually ended up living in like the woods behind her. Like she was living in nature for a while. So she knows how to do that. So now the government in the government's eyes, she's dead. They think everyone in that crashed past. And so she's like, okay, I can have my freedom again.

And it's kind of living in nature again. And then stumbles upon this huge field of wildflowers. And so there's a man named Jackson who owns the farm. And she ends up staying there and helping and healing. And so almost all of the story is about her processing everything that happened to her. And also like figuring out who she actually is, what she actually likes because she's really only known, we start to find out. She's really only known a very traumatic childhood. and then being in prison.

So, like, she hasn't, she hasn't thought about, like, who am I? What do I like? What do I want to do? And it's just beautiful. I, some of the, some of the quotes I have are just stunning about, even about, like, somatic work. So, like, putting your trauma in your body in certain places. And so there's even, like, a little yoga thread where she's kind of learning how to be back

in her body, which is something that I, I also like to just go live in my brain when possible. but I do have a body. So there's a lot that I am getting from this book or that I got. And so I just finished that one yesterday. It's so good. And she's going to be here. She's going to be here on the 20th. So I had to get a physical copy so that I can get it signed in about a week.

Yeah, in about a week. So I'll have some up there on the mic with you. Yes, I know. And she's going to be at a library. So I think she's going to like talk about it a little bit. And who knows? Maybe I will get her on the podcast. So yeah, that was my last. I guess I've kind of said my current then with this. You should have been nicer to my mom. So what would be my next, next one? I actually am really thinking about finally reading Babel by RF Kwong because it's so up my alley.

And I might finally kind of have a spot where I can fit in. Because this is a 21 hour long audio book. but it's about the Asian. I don't know if it's more specific than Asian culture, but it's about the diaspora and colonialism and how education and language are such a part of control. So it's like a lot of things that I'm very interested in. And I just kept having other stuff I needed to read for like interviews or, you know, how you request something on NetGalley and like forget about it.

and like four months later they're like here here are three books that you have to get done in two weeks and i'm finally not having that happen so babble might be my next one yeah yeah yeah oh yes because i'm going to read the misconnection next okay i think what is that one it's about by tia william so it's like a romance book I'm trying to read more romance. I know. I really enjoyed a love song for Ricky Wilde. I did really, really, really enjoy that one.

But it did kind of have more, like, it is a little bit more about Ricky than just the romance. I think that's kind of what ends up helping. And there's like all this like magical realism and all of this Harlem Renaissance stuff worked into it. I think that helped. I know. I'm trying to work on it because you know Harlem is like my favorite place to read about. So I'm trying to like expand but like I also have a Harlem wedding on my list. Oh yeah. To read and then I read Harlem Rhapsody last and I read with love from Harlem. I read Ricky Wild like that's the like that's

my favorite place like in history. I guess. Yeah. Um, so like I'm always going to read books there, but I'm trying to expand, but that's like, that's my jam. I get it. I just, there's not, there still has not been tons of romance that just gets me so excited and hooked. And I feel like the overwhelming need to say that I have no judgment for the genre every time that I say that. I'm assuming most people know that's not what I'm doing, but I feel like some people shit on romance so much that I'm just like, it just doesn't, click for me all the time that's all well because I feel like with romance you know you know the plot yeah so like it has to be romance with something else and I think like with love from Harlem I think that that's

why it works because it was romance but it was also historical fiction on a specific person right it can't just be like oh they met in the hallway then they started dating and and because you know that there's some like it's very predictable yeah um but like if there's other things in there I'll enjoy it That's, yeah, that's where I've gotten to. And I did, I loved her writing, T. Williams writing in that. So I brought, that's what I was thinking, like seven days in June as well by her. You've read it. Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't sleep well last night. You're not, not just trying to yawn. Oh, no, I didn't. But it's about, it's about two writers, right? That's where I was like, maybe that will, like the next time I'm like, okay, I think I could do romance or I need a pallet cleanser. That one might be next. for me. I'll send you. I'll find two things. Ooh. I like it. Well, I'll find you two books.

Yeah. Read deep cuts. I know. Oh, yeah. I forgot that kind of had a romance element to it. You're right. I just bump that up. And a show will come out eventually. I know there's been a lot of like back and forth, but it'll be an A24 show. So you know it's going to be like, oh, that'll be awesome. Yeah, I'm excited. That's really good. What are you reading right now? Did you already say that? No, I think that will be it.

I get it. Oh, I did read single black mother by Jamila Lemieux. I read that on Sunday, I think. And I read it like in a sitting or like in the day. Did you like that? Like, I think it was good. It's more like an essay collection, right? Yeah.

And then it's like essays for, people and she brings in like pop culture references and I think like I follow jamila since like she's right for Ebony so like I've followed her writing for years so I was excited to see this book and I hope she does more like she's a very great like culture writer I think yeah I do love that I love people who write about culture and books and movies and all of the which I guess are all culture. Yes. I'm just, I'm just being repetitive or redundant at this point, I guess. Yeah. I mean, obviously we loved kin. We recommend kin. I recommend where the wildflowers grow. Oh, and I keep showing the pre-book, but the audio is duet narration. And so what that means is you're

getting in real time. Like when she's talking, it's the female narrator. When he's talking, it's the male narrator. So you're not just getting like swapping POV chapters. You're getting it in real time. And I love that. I know that it costs more to produce audiobooks that way. I wish more of them would be that way because it's so, oh, it's so good.

So I recommend that one with love from Harlem. Maybe we've given people lots of books to consider, basically. Yeah. Read them and let us know your thoughts. Yeah. We'll have to, this was fun. We'll have to kind of do like a book episode again, whether we intentionally or unintentionally,

because it was kind of unintentional that we both ended up. It's not like we were like, we'll do a buddy read, but maybe we'll have to do another episode about just talking about a book. Yes, let's do them on a quarterly basis.