Bookwild - Carter Wilson's Fast Paced Podcast Thriller Tell Me What You Did

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

This week, I talk with Carter Wilson about his new page turner Tell Me What You Did. We dive into the inspiration for Poe's name, what got him writing about a podcaster, and how he crafted a chilling nemesis.Tell Me What You Did SynopsisShe gets people to confess their crimes for a living. He knows she's hiding a terrible secret. It's time for the truth to come out…Poe Webb, host of a popular true crime podcast, invites people to anonymously confess crimes they've committed to her audience. She can't guarantee the police won't come after her "guests," but her show grants simultaneous anonymity and instant fame—a potent combination that's proven difficult to resist. After an episode recording, Poe usually erases both criminal and crime from her mind.But when a strange and oddly familiar man appears on her show, Poe is forced to take a second look. Not only because he claims to be her mother's murderer from years ago, but because Poe knows something no one else does. Her mother's murderer is dead.Poe killed him.From the USA Today bestselling author of The Dead Girl in 2A and The New Neighbor comes a chilling new thriller that forces the question: are murderers always the bad guys? Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk with Carter Wilson, who is the author of many books, but I'm actually going to be talking to him about Tell Me What You Did, which just came out. It is wild. It is a truly wild thriller. The stakes are just consistently escalating in this one. So if you are looking for something really fast-paced with some mind games and some action, this one is for you. Poe Webb, host of a popular true crime podcast, invites people to who anonymously confess crimes they've committed to her audience. She can't guarantee the police won't come after her guests, but her show grants simultaneous anonymity and instant fame, a potent combination that's proven difficult to resist.

After an episode recording, Poe usually erases both criminal and crime from her mind. But when a strange and oddly familiar man appears on her show, Poe is forced to take a second look. Not only because he claims to be her mother's murderer from years ago, but because Poe knows something no one else does, her mother's murderer is dead. Po killed him. Like you get so much in this synopsis where you're like, do I know too much? Nope, nope. Even knowing all of that, it is still a really crazy wild ride of a thriller.

It is so fun. I loved the way that Carter approached the podcast element of this, even more than some other books that have podcast elements in it. This one is really driven by podcast transcripts because of what Po gets herself into. So I really loves the take on a podcast thriller. I think you will too. And that being said, let's hear from Carter. I am so excited to talk about, tell me what you did. But I first wanted to get to know you a little bit.

So when did you know you wanted to write a book? Did you know you wanted to be an author? How did, what's your origin story? I never wanted to be an author. That never was anything that remotely crossed my consciousness as a young person. But I will, so I went kind of the business route. I was in real estate finance and in the hospitality industry, went to hotel school. And when I was 33, I had to take this eight hour long class, this really boring

continuing the education class. And so in that class, I posed myself a riddle. I just wrote it down on a piece of paper. I just made up this little murder mystery riddle just to pass the time. And I could not solve this dumb riddle. So I got home and I started kind of like, what is the backstory? What explains this weird riddle? And I just started writing, not knowing at all what I was doing.

And it turned into a 400-page manuscript in about three months. Wow. Didn't tell anyone I was. was doing it, didn't know what I was doing, but I did realize that this is weird. Maybe I should listen and be curious about why this happened. And that was my first manuscript. You know, I was very fortunate enough by the skin of my teeth. I had an agent with that manuscript. But that book didn't sell, nor did the two after it. So my first three books didn't sell. But I realized from that first experience, I'm like, I just want to do this the rest of my life.

Whether I make money or not. So that was 21 years ago. So those first three books didn't sell, but fortunately my next 10 did. And so I've just been teaching myself the whole time. That is so cool. I mean, I feel like everyone has their horror stories about getting published the first time. So that part's rough. But it's awesome that you just loved it, love doing it so much that you're like,

actually this isn't going to determine. me because I feel like the reality is not tons of writers are making tons of money off of writing. So it kind of does have to be a labor of love. It does. And I teach as well. That's one of the things I teach is like the very first thing we talk about with my students is like, well, why are you doing this? Like really why, not just your top of mind answer, but really your gut answer.

And, you know, there has to be a passion there because to your point, it's a long journey. and, you know, even to get published is, you know, the least traditionally is almost impossible. And then to make, and just because you get published doesn't mean you're rolling in the money far from it. My very first book that did sell, I remember my advance was $2,000, but they only paid me half of that because they went out of business six months after my book came out. So, I mean, that's, but that is not an uncommon story. So, you know, the money's just. really hard to come by. So you have to make it a passion and you have, but you have to treat it like a job because if you treat it like a hobby, it will never have the respect that it needs for you to sustain,

I think. Right. Yeah, that's a really good point. So it sounds like you kind of self-taught yourself, I think is what you were implying there a little bit. What is your hiding process like? I didn't. I still right now the way I did back then, which is I'm a total pancer. I can't outline. I've tried it, and I think everybody should try different styles, but you'll realize how your brain works over time, and I've realized my brain pants. But yeah, I've learned, you know, self-taught is a very loose term. I never took any writing classes, but you seek massive amounts of feedback. And so beta readers, agents, editors, that's where you learn. You know, I've read a few books on writing. You know, Stephen King's on writing is fantastic. And, you know, there's no one way to write a book.

Don't ever believe anyone who says, this is how it's done. You should say this is how I do it. And maybe you can learn from that. Maybe you can't. But that's the beauty of it, too, is that you have to find your own way. And the best way of doing that is by writing hundreds of thousands of words. and failing along the way and being curious about those failures. Why was I rejected? What's the common thread here? What aren't they seen? You just have to be curious the whole process.

Yeah. Staying curious, definitely. I think it's so important with like anything creative that you try to do. But I've said it a couple of years ago when I started this podcast and started talking to more authors, I feel like that was like the first thing that stood out to me. was that there's not one way to write a book and there's not two and there's not 10 there are like thousands like it just seems like everyone has their own experience with it and maybe little details that are different and how they do it which is so cool if you can look at it as a freeing

freeing thing or sometimes it can be intimidating because you don't have any like forced parameters telling you what to do right and I think for writers and this is a huge general generality I think it's largely true. Writers really lack a lot of self-confidence. And trusting your instinct, meaning I'm going to write this book that's just flowing out of my subconscious and not thinking about three-x structure, not thinking about a hero's journey, all that stuff, takes a lot of confidence. And so that takes many years to get to the point where you feel like, all right, I'm just

going to wing it. And now I'm at the point where I like, I'll write half the book or what I perceive to be is roughly half the book without looking back. and making it up as I go along. And then I'll read that first half just because I forget stuff. And then write the second half without looking back. And then finally that first draft is out. And that is just your raw from your gut draft.

And that's the most precious thing because that has all your instincts working behind it. But then the real work begins. Now you go back and like, let's gut this thing. Because a lot of it's not going to make sense. Because you're just, you know, because there are. characters that I'm like, oh, I totally forgot. I even introduced this character. I never did anything with them. So, but it has to be from your, your instinct. Whether you're outlining or not, if you're doing an outline that has to be from your, from your gut and not from what you think

the market is looking for. Yeah. That reminds me of Jordan Peel has a quote about like, drafting is just getting sand into the sandbox. And then after the fact, you can make it look like something. It feels kind of like that. Totally. Totally. And I think, I think you'll be surprised that that first draft over time, the more you do it is better than you think. So I just finished a draft that was 84,000 words. And I went through it the entire first time and I probably cut 5,000 words and added 5. So it's all still at 84,000 words. I'm like, all right, this didn't need as much work as I thought.

Yeah. Which is great, even though it feels like a mess when you do it. Yeah. totally um what what about characters do you get to know your characters at all before you start writing or do you get to know them kind of in that first draft yeah it depends on the book i've had some books where a character will just kind of appear to me before i even know what the book is and i'm usually working on another book and all of a sudden i'm seeing this person i'm like what's your deal and so i tell myself if i'm still thinking about you i won't write anything down if i'm

still thinking about you four or five months from now whenever I finish this other book, then I'll start to see what your story is. Other times I know kind of the loose idea for a story, like very, very loose, like in the case of telling me what you did. And then I start thinking about all right, who is in this? And they just kind of come to me. I don't write much down. I don't describe them very much in the books themselves. But I have a general sense of this, like, energy about this person's energy is X, Y, or Z. And, and, you know, in the case of tell me what you did, the energy was one of kind of anger. Like, it was, it's an angry book.

And I knew that going into, like, I just feel that there's this anger in this, in this story. And I even know what the story is, but that's, so of course, my character kind of comes off like that. Wow. So knowing that then, what was the character in that feeling? Was that the inspiration for this book? or did you have any other ideas that were like the starting point for it? Yeah, my buddy Blake and I used to kind of just exchange podcast recommendations to each other. And he came up to me one day and he's like, oh, I've been listening to this podcast.

You should check it out. It's basically these people can call and leave a voicemail, leave an apology on this voicemail line. And the podcast is they play these voicemails. And I forget the name of the podcast. I never listened to it. But I remember immediately thinking like, well, what if it wasn't? apology. What if it was a confession? Yeah. And then that kind of you'll have an idea that it has a different level of feeling in your body. And when it hits that right tone, you're like, oh, this isn't

actually an idea. This is a real idea. And so I tucked that away. And then when I thought about, I'm like, okay, now I'm going to start writing this. Like, who's, who's the host? And I just, it didn't take long before this person just kind of came to me. I'm like, oh, she's angry. And She hosts this podcast. Why is she so angry? And then I started to figure out what it was. Like, why is she doing this? And that's, that's the joy of writing is that discovery, like the self-discovery.

The entertaining myself part of it all is what's fun. Yeah. That's really cool. I'm going to have to look for that apology podcast too because that's like, it's very unique concept. It might be called like the apology line or something. I, I feel bad. I imagine I would listen to like tons.

of it, but I'm like intrigued by it. Right. Right. And I might be getting it kind of wrong anyway, but that was the gist of it, if I recall. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so once you decided you were going to kind of, you were going to, like the true crime podcast would kind of be the plot driver of the story. How did you approach incorporating it? And also some of the like commentary on true crime podcast within it as well. Yeah. I mean, I've at first I was a little worried about even writing it. because I feel like I don't read a lot of thrillers, but I know that podcasts have entered the space pretty heavily. And I can't tell you that I've read any other books on podcasts, but I know that they're out there.

So I was a little, the last thing I want to do is be unoriginal. But because I don't read a lot, it gives me a little freedom to be like, well, I don't know what they're about. So this is my take. And I have my own podcast. So I have a little familiarity with like the setup, you know, the, you know, booking guests and all that kind of stuff. And I've listened to a decent amount of true crime podcast, even though I'm kind of a wuss and sometimes it's too much for me.

Like it gets a little bit too dark. I know when it's real. It's just worse. It's real. Yeah. I mean, the reality is what makes it the most compelling, but it's also disturbing, right? So I don't so much listen to them anymore. But I could just, I could just picture it.

I could picture her sitting and her. at her desk. I could just see it all. In fact, that's why I introduced QR codes into this story because I wanted to see what it looked like. And I have an actress who actually plays her. And now again, that was just for me. I'm like, I want to see what this looks like because I totally can see this. So it wasn't too hard for me to write about it. Just having kind of my own experience, having a podcast. Yeah, that makes sense. It does help if you've done it. Yeah, not too hard to research and you know, as you know, your podcast setup

can be from a couple hundred dollars to thousands to tens of thousands of dollars. I'm definitely towards the lower end of the range. But you can have a successful good sounding, good looking podcast with not much

stuff. So I felt comfortable being able to say like, okay, she can have a top rank podcast and not have to have this massive studio. Yes. Yeah, you totally can. It is crazy the range where it's like people already know you. It doesn't matter at all. Like you could be recording on you onto your phone in an airport and they're

happy to hear from you every week. Totally. So there is there is such a range. I mean, I think you and I that looks like a sure microphone to me. It is actually your microphone. Yeah. So you know, a few hundred dollars for a really good quality microphone and it sounds great. Yes.

Yeah. I got lucky. We actually record podcasts. We work. we make social media content for all kinds of people. But we'd had the podcasting equipment because we'd recorded them. And finally, a few years ago, I was like, wait, I could start my own with all of this. Totally.

Totally. And you can produce it yourself. And I'm not saying it's not a lot of work. It is. And you lose money on it for sure. But it's also great because you get to meet some fantastic people. Yep. Totally.

Yeah. I remember, like, I had no clue how many authors would say yes when I started reaching out. But I had the, I wouldn't say lucky, but interesting timing of, I started it right before we went into lockdown. So then like everyone was like, sure, I'll do it digitally. And I think that helped people get used to the idea of it. Yeah, I think you'll find, and I'm sure you have found, as I have found, as huge names are just like, yeah, okay.

Yeah. Yeah, authors, my experiences, authors are very self-effacing. they're very approachable they're happy to talk about their books they're happy somebody's interested no matter that you know so it's usually just a matter of their calendar but yeah it's rare that you get ghosted if you get ghosted it's usually because you've reached out to the PR agency right and you know or the author or you're stuck in their requests right right exactly but most people most authors just are happy to be on it oh i see your dog now Oh yeah, there's one.

We've got one moving around. Moving around. I woke her up with my talking. There we go. So did you, so it sounds like you knew Poe was angry. But one of the things that is like obviously like really interesting and dynamic about her character is she's someone who has murdered in the past. And then starts this podcast where she's exploring like you can see this. that she's trying to understand herself through hearing what these other people confess to doing.

So did you always know you wanted to go that direction or did like the feeling of anger in her just kind of take you that direction? It just kind of took me in that direction. And that's the beauty of the subconscious is like it starts, you start to get it after a while. Like I think 50% into the book, I'm like, oh, she started this podcast for therapy. I didn't realize that. But now it's making sense. That's why she's doing this.

So you just kind of trust that all those pieces will eventually fall into place. So when you think of maybe a twist 70% in that you hadn't thought of before, that twist was there all along. It just hadn't occurred to you yet. And that's, I mean, those are the greatest writing moments ever. And then sometimes you have to go back and lay your things in. But it's never forced because it's all been working to that point. You just hadn't seen it yet.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, that has to just feel so magical. It's amazing. Knowing it was there, kind of. Like, that'll happen maybe twice in a book. Like, you have this revelation, whether either there's a twist or it's just the theme of the book. You're like, oh, everybody here is damaged in similar ways. And I didn't see that until I was 70% end.

So that's the relationship to one another. I'm like, that's kind of fun. Yeah. It is really cool. The other thing about Po that I thought was really just a dynamic. Again is still kind of close to the right word for it is she's a victim of violence. She's a survivor of violence. She's kind of a vigilante murderer.

And she's also like sharing other people's truths. So she has like a lot of things going on. Was there like anything about balancing all of those things? that you like intentionally did or did that just kind of all come up to as you were writing it? Yeah, that's a good question. I'm not sure. I know I tend to write characters that I know are broken because we're all broken. And there's something in their past.

And I tend to write characters that need to work through something, but they haven't realized it yet. And usually something forces them to work through it. So Poe has been kind of in this avoidance mode. you know, she witnessed her mother's murder. She took revenge upon herself. And then it's just kind of like, I'm a messed up human being at this point. And almost pushing that away until events conspired to force her to deal with her past, which again is traumatic but also therapeutic.

You know, the whole like the only way out is through. And that's, you know, and at the risk of, you know, prison sentences or, her own personal safety or her family safety, she has to push through. So it just, I mean, I tend to just write, like I literally, I write, I'm sitting down writing a chapter. Maybe I know where that chapter's going, but then it's just like, all right, then what happens? What would I do?

What if this? So I don't ever know more than a chapter or two at a time what's coming next. Yeah. It just popped into my mind again. Her name is Po. I mean, well, that's her middle name. But was that? Did you choose that as a reference to anything from Edgar Allan Poe?

Or did Poe just feel like the right name for her? Felt like the right name. I knew she was tinged with darkness. Yeah. And, you know, I'm personally a massive Poe fan. I have a big Raven tattoo on my arm. One of my old dogs was named Poe. And it just, and it's also kind of a, you know, it's funny when I was writing it,

not that I was trying to be tricky or evasive about it, but I kind of like the idea of like, you don't really know what gender this person is. I mean, when I first wrote it, like my agent was like I didn't even know until the first 100 pages, like after page 100 that this is a female. Yeah.

And I kind of like that. And she kind of didn't. So then I dropped in more clues along the way. But I also, Po is a very, like, you don't know. It's just kind of an interesting name that doesn't really attach itself to any gender. So I just felt right for her. Yeah. Yeah.

That makes sense. The something else that you kind of explore with her and her like podcast partner slash boyfriend. He feels like he always knows when someone is lying. And there's this kind of, I don't think this. is really a spoiler. There's kind of like a rub between the two of them because he feels like she's lying about something. Right. And she kind of is. She hasn't like told her told him about her past. But I thought it was an interesting thing too because it kind of it made me think about like

are we allowed to have some secrets from our partners where we're not like we're not keeping it from them because it's like something we don't want them to know or it's not like directly related to the relationship. So is that something you were kind of having fun playing around with? I feel like it kind of fits some of the themes to like which secrets can we have for ourselves. Yeah. Well, Kip is an interesting character because in my first draft, or the draft that I sent to my editor, they weren't dating. And then my editor came back and she's like, I really like this character Kip, but there's not much of him.

And there's very few characters in the book in general. So she wanted to see more depth to him. And that's what occurred to me. I'm like, oh, they're dating. And then that felt very natural. It felt like I had missed that on the first draft that they were dating all along and I just didn't see it. It didn't feel like I had it forcet.

And then you start thinking about your own relationships about like when you feel like somebody's not telling the truth or withholding information. And I did have fun with it because I like the idea that not only she withholding, obviously, she's not withholding something small. No. It's a massive, massive, you know, non-tale that she's avoiding from him. And then I also like the idea of like he's the type of guy who needs to know. And I'm the type of person who like I might want to know, but maybe I'm okay not knowing because I trust you enough to have your own secrets.

We all have our own secrets. But the people who always want to know, insist to know, that's when it always backfires because like, all right, because we can have secrets and still have a very honest, loving, connective relationships. I mean, there are no relationships without secrets, I can't imagine. And you have to trust your partner that, you know, this isn't something that, you know, is a betrayal of you. It's just something that's a secret of mine.

But when you're the person who insists, I have. have to know that usually backfires and you're like, okay, I really wish I hadn't known that. Yes. I know. Why did you tell me? Yeah. It's kind of like when there's a like mind reading tropes or plots or whatever. It's like you don't I don't want to know what everyone is thinking about me all the time. Like I'm okay with them having some of their own private thoughts about me. Yeah. And it's to me it's interesting because that's kind of the, also the gist of the podcast as these people are confessing crimes to which they could potentially get into trouble, even though they are quasi assured of their anonymity. But they're willing to take the risk to tell their own secrets because

they're chasing some kind of attention. And I always think that's fascinating because I'm not like that at all. I would rather be in the shadows. Even if I don't have anything to hide, I would rather be in the shadows, you know, the idea of people who are like, oh, I love to each drop on other people's conversations and over here. Like, I don't like any of that stuff. I always feel like uncomfortable, not because I'm morally better than anyone. That's just how I'm built. And so it's fun to think about characters who like need to know. They need to know. And to me, that is often poisonous. Yeah. He was interesting. I did, I did like the different tension that he brought and kind of like you're saying it's such a not foil but like such a

contrast to her since she is someone who like listens to other people's secrets has her own secrets and he's someone who's like I will know everything and if everyone's telling the truth right right right which is a good person to have as an assistant that type of podcast yeah the other like her other main relationship is with her dad and it is a tricky relationship given everything that happened with her mom being murdered just there's been trauma in that relationship too so how did you approach their relationship because it's it's very clear that they love and care about each other but also that like they don't always know how to talk to each other yeah totally that's a great question because i i always this is a struggle i always have you're writing

this character and you always think about like okay well where's this person's family. Where are they from? What and and it's easy to be like, oh, her parents are dead because then there's, then you don't have to deal with that relationship. And there's other times you're like, this person would 100% if they still have any kind of relationship with their family. They are in such deep water that they would absolutely reach out to their family if their family's around. And so I thought about that. And I'm like, well, the dad's around. And, and, and then I'm like, well, of course he has to be a part of this because everything is such a domestic, you know, part of the story. And so then it just felt natural to me of like, yeah, this is this weird.

He's a changed man because his wife was murdered. He doesn't know a lot of the secrets Poe knows. So she's withholding from him that she's gotten very good at doing. And so I just thought about him being a very pragmatic, just tell me what's happening. I'm here for you. You are first no matter what. You can tell me anything. And then also knowing that like he's fragile too.

So it was, yeah, he took a few rewrites to get what I felt was like a good tone for him. But it softens her up to a little bit to establish that relationship, I think, a little bit because she's not, she's got a pretty hard edge to her. Yes. I love his, the different energy. His cat brings to and how much she's like, I hate this cat. And he's like, I love my cat. I know. I introduced the animals just kind of out of like, you know, I can see these people having animals, not as a real, you know, let me introduce animals to make them look kind or whatever.

And then I just realized, like, I'm like, their animals have different energy levels. And I wanted to. And that ended up kind of being a little bit metaphorical. Yeah. Yeah. The longer we get to know her dad, we learn a little bit more about how basically her memories of her childhood are not necessarily an accurate representation of what was going on at the time. Was that something that kind of developed as you were writing that relationship with them? Or did you always kind of know, like, maybe she doesn't have the full story? It was kind of the latter because I think that's just so true. Like as kids, we all have these memories, whether the good memories or bad memories.

But as we get older and we perhaps learn some of the same. of the truth behind those memories, it's never a match, right? I mean, I have memories of my own parents like that, you know, good or bad, I don't know the full story of why my dad was mad that day or why they gave me a gift out of the blue for no reason. Like, what was that about? Well, I love the idea that, you know, you see things totally differently as you get older and you start assuming that adult role. Yeah. Yeah. It really, added to it too to kind of have her still discovering stuff even about that time period of her life essentially right um so the what i will say you brought up earlier that there are a lot of thrillers

that have podcasts in them i don't think i've read one recently that so much uses like the literal like dialogue back and forth of like an actual podcast episode as much as this one did like this one really is like a lot of like truly reading the um why can't i think a transcript of an episode um and that really is what's driving a lot of the present timeline forward did you have a favorite part about writing the podcast chapters it's interesting when i first started writing the book i wrote it this is going to sound weird i wrote it from post point of view first person present intense, but they were different. They were different chapters. So one of the chapters was almost like she was journaling. And then it would be the story. And then she would be journaling. And I wasn't

working. And I'm like, oh, this isn't a journalist. This is a podcast transcript. And so, yeah, it was a lot of fun to write those. And it's tricky because it has to be easy to understand as a reader. You think a little bit about how is this going to translate to an audio book. That kind of a thing. How do we indicate who's talking? How do you indicate periods of silence? And I've written police transcripts before in books. So I had a little bit of a sense of it. But yeah, I think I have a good ear for dialogue. So I could just, I could hear them talking. I'm like, this is exactly what they're saying, what they're doing. And so it was pretty easy. easy to write that dialogue.

Yeah. Yeah. And Ian, the man who calls in and is kind of tormenting her, he is creepy and terrifying. Oh, good. And you describe him so well. What was it like creating his persona? Well, that's, that's where the fun is, I think. And thank you for that.

I think when you're writing a quote unquote villain, although. You know, he is a villain, but I didn't want him to make him a cartoon. And you think about all the tropes of villains. And you're trying to avoid that, but, but it doesn't take much to, I think, like, what would creep me out? I'm like, oh, somebody who is unhealthily skinny and gaunt, but has fierce, fierce burning eyes. Like, that's scary to me. And that could be a lot of people that doesn't have to be a monster. Right. And I describe very few characters in my book, but I went out on my way to describe him because she's seen him on her computer screen for the first time. So she's kind of soaking in that information. And then, yeah, then you're writing them and like, okay, you know, what's, where does it feel when it gets over the top? Because you don't want to have somebody who's so just monstrous. They always have to have a purpose. There always has to be a force driving them. And they have to believe that force is,

in the right direction. So they always have to believe in the validity of what they're doing, um, rather than just like, hey, I'm evil for the sake of being evil. Isn't that fun? To me,

that's very boring. Yeah. Um, so I needed to make sure he was ultimately human, ultimately had a reason to doing what he's doing, um, even if it manifests itself in, and,

and doing horrible things to Poe. Right. Yeah. Yeah, he was unsettling. I was like, this guy is freaking. Oh, that's good. I've had a couple people tell me they've, he's given them nightmares. And that's like the best problem that you can get.

Yeah, there's some creepy things he did. And I started this book while my husband was traveling for work. And I was like, oh boy. Yeah, there's people told me they've walked them. Well, they, you know, Poe is living in a house alone with her dog. Yeah. So, and it's a big house. And it's kind of in the countryside in Vermont.

So it's, there is vulnerability there. Yeah. I do want to live in her fictional house in Vermont. Me too. Yeah. It sounds amazing. Converted barn. Yeah.

Like total side topic. But I have like really bad asthma. So every now and then we like, especially when the weather or the air quality is really bad here, we're like, where is the place with the best air? And it's like in that Vermont area. So when I was reading the book, I was like, I am meant to be a podcaster in Vermont. Yeah. Yeah. totally totally i know we've my partner i have kind of looked at vermont as a place to maybe go in

five years from now or something like that so uh just whatever's closer to canada you're right that too that too um so i always wonder with stories that have like this one hammer fit does direct timeline hopping or if you just hear her or if it's kind of within in like her recounting stuff in the present. But anytime there's like a timeline things that are introduced at different points of the story, it always makes me wonder if did you write it linearly? Like did you kind of like start with her past? Or did you jump in and mostly write it the way that it appears in the book?

The way that it appears. That's the only way I know how to write. Because again, that's the curse of being a panther. Like you don't know that all that stuff happened until you get to the point where you write about it. And I do it more often than not because like I said earlier, most of my characters have something in their past that explains what's going on. And if it's rich content, it's really hard to just have it be exposition from the character's point of view because it slows the book down. And to me, it's like, I want to see what happened. I want to be there.

I want to see it through her eyes. So I will write it first person present tense from that moment. And so it's a total flashback, 15, 13 years, whatever. And that's way more fun. And then you can really go along with it and not feel like I have to put all this backstory in like half a chapter. Right. Yeah.

And then it feels, sometimes that feels clumsy when you're reading books like that too. Yeah. That makes sense with the painting that you're like, I'm just, I'm just rolling with Right. But it's a fun shift for the author to be all of a sudden like, oh, now I'm writing about 15 years ago. That's cool. That's what I've been doing. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Well, my last question, we may know the answer since you've been since you're a pancer. But did you know kind of where you're headed with the ending? Did you know where you thought everything was going to come together or were you kind of surprised with yourself by the end of it? I don't know if I was surprised. I certainly. didn't know. I mean, I never know my endings until about maybe 80% in. Things start kind of shaping up. I mean, the only sense that you have is a very broad one of like, I don't think she's going to be dead at the end. That's, that's one of the, probably, I don't know if it's, it's not necessarily a rule, but that's a real disappointment sometimes for, for readers. A lot of my endings

are very vague. And we don't quite know what happens. And this case, it was, a little bit more clear. To me, endings have to be hopeful, even if it's just in this dark, dismal place, there has to be hope there. Because to me, that's what the, when you talk about characters needing to change, which I think is bullshit, by the way, to me, change means going from a sense of hopelessness to hope, whether that's one percent hope or a hundred percent hope. There needs to be that, that's that transition. So, whatever she went through at the other end, even if she's not in a great place, she needs to have a sense of things will be okay. And so that's why I tried to do with her. And I think it worked.

I really resonate with that because sometimes people are not tons of people, but sometimes people are like, why do you read thrillers? It's so negative or scary or whatever. Like emotions we tend to classify as negative, I guess, what I'll actually say. But for me, what I enjoy in most thrillers is that like it feels like you get over something. Like it feels like the character does find, I like you're saying hope. It feels like the characters overcome something. And so it's like overall the hopeful experience for me to be reading these books where like crazy stuff is happening. But at the end, whether everything's perfect or not, it feels like the character has like restored some order. to their world.

Right. Exercise some demons. Right. Totally. And that, you know, and they struggle and they suffer along the way. But, you know, when I read thrillers, there are some thrillers that are too dark for me. And like, I'm like, I can't get to the part of the whole because I can't handle. Especially if it's stuff with like kids or animals, you know, the typical things are misogyny.

You know, the stuff where it's just like torture. You know, I don't like, I don't like employing a lot of violence in my books. Although people think I do. Like if you look at my books, violence doesn't actually happen all that often. But when it does, it's meaningful and real and the consequences are fierce. And that's important to me. But if it happens every page, then I'm bored. And I think the reader's bored.

Yeah. I have some other episodes where I just talk about books with other readers. and my co-host, Gare, is known for how much he loves a bleak book. And I just bleak is not anything I'll ever describe for something that I, like, loved. Because I just can't sit there in the, like, sadness for 400 pages. It's got to be. So a great example, I think, is Cormac McCarthy's The Road, which I, you know, have more than once listed as my favorite book of all time.

That is a fucking bleak book. That's as bleak as it gets. But it is so ferociously written and it just forces you to read every word and that it overcomes that. There's such a sublime sense of storytelling about something so terrible and bleak that, you know, I mean, all of his books are pretty bleak. But, but yeah, if it's not done well, then all it is, it's just depressing. You're just sad the whole time. Right. Right. You want to be, I'm not trying to bum people out necessarily.

I'm just trying to make their heart race a little bit. And I really want people to be like, what would I do? That's really important to me because that's what I feel when I'm writing the book. I'm always saying, what would I do? And then I add a lot more bravery and a lot more fear to the reality. Yeah. What I would do. Well, you and I are an agreement on that part. I know you said you don't read tons of thrillers or maybe that was just when you started. writing, but I have been asking everyone at the end if they've read anything recently that I, that I loved, that they loved. I'm assuming from all the books behind you, you are a reader. So have you read anything that you read a reader? Yeah, I will, I will shout out. I read a lot.

I did some judging last year. So I've read a lot of thrillers. But I will, my buddy, Stu Turton wrote his, maybe his third book, The Last Murder at the End of the World. is great because he's so it's it's not only is it a great story it's what i love i love diving in a book i'm like all right i've never seen anything like this before this is wholly original whether i love it or i don't love it um and and stew's book is great and it's just completely original and i interviewed him on his tour and he said he writes he writes you know 120,000 words it takes him a year and they throws it away. He literally deletes it.

And it's kind of like whatever remnants stick in his mind, that's the basis of the real book. So it could be a completely different story, but he needed to write those 120,000 words to get the real book out. So it takes them several years to write a book, but that's how his brain works. And I'm like, that's amazing. Like as torturous.

Like he's like, yeah, it turns me out because he writes, he's a guy. who writes, who can write six to eight hours a day. You know, my brain's not like, I'm an hour a day guy. Seven days a week, but just an hour a day. Yeah. I get fascinated by other people's writing styles and what it produces. And that's a fantastic book.

That has been on my TBR, like, since it came out. And now you're convincing me, I need to bump this one up. Because I loved seven and a half deaths of Evelyn Hardcast. I thought that was so cool. Yeah, yeah, he's just, he's just very original. That's awesome. I'm going to, I'm going to bump it up. It's actually right over there.

When you said it, I was like tempted to look at it over there. Yeah, and it's not a small book. It's a little bit better. No, it's not. But it's, yeah, it's, it's just very creative. I'm excited. Yeah. The concept is fascinating to me.

Totally. So a lot of mystery, but the room is an island. Yeah. And it's like literally could be the end of the world. world. Totally. Yeah. Completely. All the stakes are there. Um, where can people follow you to stay up to date with everything? Uh, two places. My website's Carterwilson.com and that's got all the typical information. And my, I also own the company Unbound Writer. So it's Unbound Rider.com. And that's where I do one-on-one coaching, writing retreats and workshops. And we're launching a series of self-guided online

classes for writers. Um, so all those places are good ways to connect. with me. Oh, that's good to know. I am going to put all those links in the show notes. Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Yeah. And thank you so much for coming on and talking about your book. Yeah, my pleasure. Always fun to talk about it and it was great chatting with you, Kate.