Bookwild - Cate Holahan's The Kidnapping of Alice Ingold: Nepo Babies, True Crime Culture & Artificial Intelligence

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

This week, I got to talk with Cate Holahan about her new thriller The Kidnapping of Alice Ingold. She shares the real life case that inspired the kidnapping structure, how anxiety fuels her best ideas, and how she approached writing an AI tech guru.The Kidnapping of Alice Ingold SynopsisAlice Ingold has been kidnapped. Call the police. Alert the media. You can't play this game without all the pieces.Beautiful, blond, and immensely privileged, Alice Ingold is the perfect victim for a true-crime obsessed culture--and for a masked duo with a singular purpose. Instead of a demand for ransom, her captors have a riddle, and they're inviting the entire country to solve it.No one is more invested in the search than Alice's parents: Catherine, a socialite with obscene generational wealth, and Brian, a visionary AI tech guru. But while Brian turns to machines to solve the problem, Catherine tries to crowdsource the solution, stopping at nothing to bring her daughter home. And America isn't just watching the story unfold...it's playing along. The nationwide scavenger hunt for Alice is on.As an increasingly desperate Catherine strives to understand each new clue, a complex picture of the crime develops. Soon, everyone will see the kidnapping of Alice Ingold for what it is--and Alice won't be the only one who will need saving. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week, I got to talk with Kat Hollahan about her new thriller, The Kidnapping of Alice Engold. If you like thrillers and missing persons cases that also talk about some social issues along the way, you're going to love this one. Alice Engold has been kidnapped. Call the police, alert the media. You can't play this game without all the pieces. Beautiful, blonde, and immensely privileged, Alice Engold is the perfect victim for a true crime obsessed culture and for a masked duo with a singular purpose. Instead of a demand for ransom, her captors have a riddle, and they're inviting the entire country to solve it. No one is more invested in the search than Alice's parents, Catherine, a socialite with obscene generational wealth, and Brian, a visionary AI tech guru. But while Brian turns to machines to solve the problem,

Catherine tries to crowdsource the solution, stopping at nothing to bring her daughter home. And America isn't just watching the story unfold, it's playing along. The nationwide scavenger hunt for Alice is on. As an increasingly desperate Catherine strives to understand each new clue, a complex picture of the crime develops. Soon, everyone will see the kidnapping of Alice in gold for what it was, and Alice won't be the only one who will need saving. This one talks out so many things, is also impeccable with its pacing,

and I had a lot of fun talking with her about what inspired the book and her process in writing this one. So I can't wait for you to hear our conversation. So I'm super excited to talk with Kate Hollahan about I keep saying the kidnapping of Catherine Ingold. It's the kidnapping of Alice Ingold. So that's why I was looking at the book to make sure I didn't mix up the names. And yeah, I'm excited to have you back. We talked about young rich widows. couple of years ago now like two years probably it was the first in the series that we spoke about

yeah okay yeah a couple we're on book three of that i know i'm so excited for that one that'll be so fun um but it was kind of crazy i interviewed Vanessa lily earlier this week and i'm like i'm just talking to all the young rich widow's authors we're back yes so um i didn't get to ask you because there was a group interview previously um i always want to know Like, what was your journey to becoming an author? Did you always know you wanted to write? What was that like for you? Oh, yeah.

Well, I was, so I got my first book rejection at age seven. I sent in a book to Scholastic. And my mom indulged me and sent it in. And with original artwork and everything, I was illustrated. And it was rejected with a very nice rejection letter that told me to keep trying. they did not send back my original book with its original artwork. So lesson learned there. And I really just wanted to be an author ever since.

However, I also wanted to eat. And in the beginning, you know, it can be a little difficult. So I became a journalist. And I was a journalist for, I guess I wrote for newspapers. I started off with obituaries when I was 13 writing for the local newspaper. And by the time I was 17, I was, I admitted to like the front page of the, at the time, it was called the Bergen record. Now it's just the record newspaper. That was so cool.

And so then after that, I was, you know, I wrote for, I wrote for the Boston Globe briefly. I wrote for Business Week magazine and online. MSNMoney. And then I was a television producer at CNBC. I did that when I had my first kid. And I was like, well, kids are expensive. Let's go to television. And then by the time I had my second one, I was just like, you know, let's, I've always wanted to write, you know, I've writing books.

It's really my passion. So I'm going to write one over maternity leave, right, and see. And so I did. And that's, and I got an agent and a publisher, and I decided, okay, let's not go back. Let's do this for real. And now, if you count young rich widows, the group series, that I write it's book I just this is book 10 and I just filed book 11 wow that is impressive um I just love that you made it to the front page of your newspaper when you were 13 I can't get over

that this is so cool not the front page 13 was obituaries oh sorry sorry 17 17 okay yeah so it took a while still you were you were still at school even um that's that's really cool you, so you've written a lot, obviously a lot of books and a lot of thrillers. Is there something about thrillers that kind of draws you to it? Or is it kind of just like what come, like those are the ideas that come to you? Well, I think it's twofold. One, it's the stakes. I mean, the stakes and thrillers are literally life and death.

So that makes it easy in some ways because it's not like you have to convince people what the stakes are. And then the other thing is I love the puzzle of it of kind of developing the twists and turns. And the last thing is I really write from a place of anxiety. So I spent most of my time, you know, thinking of things that worry me and then kind of playing that out in my head. And so occasionally some of them make good book ideas. Yes. Other ones just give me a reason to, you know, take some well-butrin. right well but mutual has the opposite effect for me but i love that it works for you know oh i love that

you're like i figured out how to monetize my overthinking brain yes that's right if you can't be to join it yeah um so i guess then from that point how do you start do you do you plot it out before you start writing do you typically know where you're headed how does your writing process happen once you have the idea yeah so as an overthinker i absolutely plot out yeah so um i have uh these excel spreadsheets and my father was an accountant and so he tried to teach me excel for accounting and that never stuck but i was like oh i can write words in it and i can move around the cell so when i just switch a chapter that chapter can so that's um so i use that and i plot the hell out of it and then i have like other color-coded sheets for different story arcs and where they're going to intersect and where the

twist is and all that. And then, you know, as you're writing, your characters develop sometimes in ways that are sort of unexpected. And then I go back to the plotting sheet and I go, okay, well, this isn't going to work anymore. And I read plot and then I go back. So there is a back and forth, but I'm very afraid of the blank page. So I always start with an idea of like, I'm trying to go from point A to point B. Yeah. And it doesn't mean I'll keep that chapter every now and then I have a day where I'm like, mm, that's,

you know, we're going to throw out that day. But at least I'm never kind of there going, what's the plan? Like, God's, me, you know, it's always,

this is what I'm doing today. I mean, I feel like that's what, in terms of, like, like, I edit a lot of videos and content and stuff for my job. And I understand that feeling of,

like, if I can just get the framework in, like, especially on, like, a big project, then it's like, okay, every time I sit down, I just have to, like, fill in the, like, in-between parts almost.

So that makes sense. With characters, is it you said sometimes, like, you're writing and then the characters reveal something to you. So do you do much planning with the character ahead of time, or do you kind of get to know them as you're writing, too? It's a little bit of both. I mean, I always sit down thinking, I know, you know, I certainly know they're the major, I know they're major want.

Yeah. Right. And I know they're major flaw, usually. And those are the things that I start to generate. But as I'm writing, you know, vulnerabilities come out probably because you're, you're filtering a lot of stuff through that character. And then I'll realize, you know, I mean, just to use one from the kidnapping of Alice in gold, as I was writing the character of Alice, I was kind of like, when, you know, growing up the way she did. what would her relationship with the media have been, right? And how that might have influenced some of her actions.

And so I wanted this idea that she has kind of been this nepo baby and not liked, you know, what people have said about her. And that's kind of put some pressure to feel like she's more than that. And she stands, you know, for more than that. And so in the beginning when she's kidnapped and she spends a lot of time talking about how she fought and how she did this. The reason I think that's so important to her, which didn't really come out until later as I was writing her was because I realized, well, she's really trying to shed this image of her as like this spoiled little rich girl. So at least if she fought these people, at least if she showed some grit, then maybe, you know, and just to put it in comparison, I think in a similar situation, I don't know how much grit I would have shown in the beginning.

like, I'm just going to sit tight, wait for their parents. You're right. You know, do what they do. Yeah. You know, it would take, it would take a while before I'm looking for weapons to try and fight my way out of it. Yeah. That's a, yeah, I love that. There's been, it, the whole Napo baby conversation in general is so fascinating.

And I'm trying to think of, I read, I read another book last year that kind of where the main character is a Nepo baby. And it's so, it's so easy. and I understand why as a society we like make jokes about them and and there are times when like it's creating huge imbalances where like other people aren't getting opportunities so I understand both sides of the conversation so much though because then sometimes though you like read a book or hear someone's memoir maybe who is a nepo baby and you're like oh but they still technically are people like they actually still are and like some of them didn't ask for this and it's just like what happened to them so I thought that I thought that was fascinating too but you cover a lot of different themes in this one

but before I like get into all my questions about them what was what was your like initial idea that sparked this story well so for me I think the main my main concern what I was going into writing the story, which kind of dovetails with the kidnappers, is what does AI look like in a world where we know wealth distribution is very unfair, right? And because I think, you know, this is, this technology is leveraging really the sum total of human creativity and intelligence and everything we've learned and it's digitized it and it's drawing upon it. But then, you know, the money is going to go to the people who started these kinds of. company. So it's kind of like you have a library of books and you're only paying the librarian.

Right. Right. And you forget about all the people that wrote all that stuff. Right. Right. And, you know, I do think that one of the things that concerns me and it gives me a lot of anxiety is the continued wealth concentration. And both because it makes me worry. And about, you know, our democratic institutions and how those things survive with a lot of people having all this influence. And, and also the value of labor because we see, you know, let's say take Amazon during the pandemic, right? And a lot of us really relied on Amazon. And I'm not saying that Amazon isn't a great company. Like, absolutely, you know, I couldn't have gotten through it without those packages. The same time, the people that deliver the packages, we find, like, you know,

they can't unionized. Sometimes they don't have health care. They're like independent contractors. They're peeing in bottles. There's no doors on their things so they can jump in and out. And so it gave me a whole new respect for all the people that were delivering my packages because also they were working at a time where a lot of us were very much afraid of, you know, interacting with other people and what that could mean for our health, right?

And so you realize they're kind of all these unsung laborers that, make the big idea work, right? And how do we value that as a society? So I think, and how is technology kind of exacerbated those inequalities? So really the main theme of it was just what does it look like if we continue along this path with AI, you know, creating a lot of valuable things as it will. right but without really addressing you know what it's going to do to labor and how that money gets you know shared in a society yeah yeah the wealth is very disproportionate like you're saying we have like so much of it in just that top 1 percent um and like you're saying they are the they're the ones who are pretty much leading the charge with AI so that is the it's a it's

like yeah it's like what do we do about that like there are like you're saying there are good use cases just like just like the internet uh like when we were first kind of um when that was first happening that's the word i'm looking for um and so it is just it's so important to look at both the pros and the cons um and it is if you you really manage to pack that into a fiction book that is still like really fun to read so i love i love when thrillers can make you think as well. And obviously it's not a spoiler. Alice Engle is kidnapped. And then, but it turns into like a game, like a nationwide game, basically. So how, yeah, like how did you get that idea? I thought it was so creative for a plot structure.

Oh, thank you. Well, like a lot of authors, I just ripped that one off from the patty, like, from history from like real life so yeah so patty hurst's kidnapping right which happened at kind of a similar time in that it was really the advent of the computer and the personal computer in the 1978 like a lot of businesses were starting that mass adoption obviously there had been computers before but this idea that it was really going to get in there and you know make what technology does which is make uh increase GDP while reducing the labor needed, right? Because the computer can now allow one person to do the work sometimes of two or more, right?

And so there was all this anxiety there. And the kidnappers in that case who did some terrible things that have, you know, that I did not want to touch in my book and it's not there. But the kidnappers there, one of their kind of like stated anxieties that fueled her whole kidnapping was was this feeling that people were going to be replaced right and they picked her in particular because of her notoriety and because they wanted immediate attention on their political ideas now they also were doing a lot of drugs and i think we're terrible rapists and and all these other things and you know put her through

you know, unthinkable thing. So, and obviously that's where we get Stockholm syndrome. Yeah. Right. But, but, but that idea of kidnappers using someone for a political message was, you know, really came from history. Yeah. You're like, sadly, it came from real life.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The whole media part is. it's always fascinating, which stories the media chooses to cover. And like you're saying, it's like being strategic, if you're a kidnapper, can mean like picking someone who is already high profile. What, oh, sorry, that's where I was going with it too.

And then she's got blonde hair, she's got blue eyes. That's typically what does really attract media attention as well. So with like true crime, because that's kind of all playing into it in the media as well, was there anything that like specifically made you want to write about true crime or was it just kind of like also just the natural progression of this kind of a plot? I think it was just, yeah, the natural progression of this plot and really, I mean, really the true crime core was the Patty Hurst kidnapping and then kind of if that sort of thing happened today, And I guess my personal anxieties, you know, I have two daughters. So one of the main point of view characters is a mom. And while that mom, you know, is a socialite and has very little in common with me other than I did give her my full, my full birth name.

Yes. But mostly because I thought it was haughty. I was like Catherine had a certain like, you know. Which is probably why we don't fight me. We're both Catherine. I was like, oh, it's fair. So it's fair. So, you know, I think that it was really that case.

And then, you know, it's funny because usually often I will write characters that have a little bit more similar similarities to my own ethnic background because I'm half black and half white and Jamaican and Irish. And I write immigrant characters and characters that are kind of dealing with being in kind of two cultural world in the same. time they're American but with Alice I really wanted I wanted kind of that that archetype that the that gets all that attention you know I wanted like the grown-up Jean Bonnet type so yeah that was it her so her parents her dad is basically an AI guru essentially and her mom is a socialite as you just mentioned and it helps you talk about like both of those um i don't know sectors of society as well so was there any like research you did into making like both of those characters that way or was something

you were already kind of interested in so you knew about it well you know i was a tech reporter were years at uh business week and then when i even when i covered the markets it kind of had a tech slant later on in my career um so i interviewed Bezos and Elon Musk and Mark Seppigberg and all of them and I think you know I mean actually and I'm not a person that that thinks like oh this person is bad this person's good I think all of us have you know different motivations and are really great in some ways and you know so what one thing I noticed covering that whole sector was the founder culture and this idea that it's kind of like the founder is celebrated and they own most of the stock of the company and they get

most of the wealth and they have the initial idea and um how the other people that work for these companies you know are are valued in the structure um and so and and you know like facebook used to have this whole motto when it first started which was uh oh gosh i don't want to get it wrong i should probably look it up but it was basically something like think fast and break things or like move fast and break things, right? And the idea, I get it was kind of like, well, to revolutionize society in a technological way, you want to, you know, you want to kind of make it and then see what it does and then deal with what it does later and fix it up later.

But, you know, sometimes that means sometimes big things break and they're not so easy to fix. And, you know, to their credit, I think they changed that motto as they got bigger. and realize. But I do think that it's not just them. I think that is a kind of a popular Silicon Valley mentality, right? Is that you, you know, the revolution kind of comes first and then you deal with the consequences. And so as an outsider, I'm looking in.

I've always wondered, well, when does exactly, when does the reckoning come with the consequences? And are there any ways to kind of deal with what we foresee those to be before they actually happen? Because some of them might be a bit too devastating to actually happen. Right. Yeah. The way you were saying that was also reminding me it's actually like a very American, not even like just Silicon Valley. I hadn't thought of it until you were just saying like founder culture. And then there's like obviously a lot of conversations right now about the founding fathers,

which I still don't even think they were like bastions of morality either, but it's always coming up. And I hadn't thought of even, like, that's even kind of how we have run our country a little bit. Like, just get it made and then we'll figure things out. And you really do excuse a lot of bad behavior if that's like, it's such an ins justify the means almost, kind of, I think, is like not having to think about it at all. So yeah. And also I think we have different, there's different visions, right? Yeah. You know, everyone's utopia is somebody else's dystopia, right?

Right. That's the whole. And so, you know, there is a vision out there where everything, you know, tech gives individual so much power that all of your media is, you know, decided on prompts by you, right? And all of your, and your news can be tailored to kind of, you know, must support your own confirmation bias. And you can kind of live in your own bubble. And there will be some demand for that.

There are people that kind of want that. But I think you have to go, well, what happens to society if that is the world that we create, right? How do you, from as simple as like you lose the water cooler conversation, did you see that show last night? Or did you read that book and the ideas and things that that sparks? to, you know, to maybe losing a foundation of fact from which we can operate. Right.

So, so yeah, so you see lots of anxieties go into my life. That's okay. It's probably, I mean, it's sometimes the anxious people who are, like, writing the stuff that, like, helps us process what's happening or, like, think about what's going to happen next. So, yeah, basically, I get it. is kind of where I'm coming from. Yeah, and it's funny, you know, my kid, my eighth grader is reading Fahrenheit, 451.

Wow. Right. And so I read it because I was just like, oh, you know, I want it fresh. It is amazing. It is amazing. How well. He has like, like some of the things he said were so prescient to write now. And it's not just the book burning.

It's really the larger idea. with society of like how much do we want to just be comfortable and not have difficult conversations and how much even do we want our books? And I run into this all the time. Like what is the balance between trying to to write something that's entertaining but also might have something to think about versus just kind of keeping it in that, you know, a little bit more true crimey where it's just like, did you hear this salacious story? Yeah. Can you believe that the mother, like, was writing the bullying notes all the time?

Or, like, you know, like these kind of like things where, I mean, maybe in a very broad way, it kind of has meaning. You know, beyonds, but not really. We're all really just going, oh, my. I know. Oh, my gosh. I can't believe that happened. It's just good, like, neighborhood gossip kind of thing. I know.

And so, yeah. You're always trying to strike that balance because, um, you know there are people that are just like you know entertain me monkey writer and like you know like you're trying to kind of do that while at the same time be like but yeah what are some larger discussions we can bring into it yeah that's what i've i've also been reading thrillers for years so it it might just be i've read a lot of like popcorn thrillers but um i have been appreciating lately it's like some the stuff that or the stories that are talking about like some bigger themes that means the stories tends to stick with me longer and like character development that's like the other part like

when when I really feel like I know the characters and like they feel completely fleshed out is more memorable for me so that's like the direction I've been going as a reader obviously read your popcorn thrillers if you want to do but I've kind of been feeling that way just as a reader and general too so I do I do appreciate the like bigger conversations that are happening that mom texting her daughter I can't even remember what the doc was called but it was also like those kids were so young still that was like the other thing that stood out to me I'm like like they're just traumatized like I saw clips I didn't end up watching it but I would just see clips and I'm like these are still babies that just like went through something very weird and we're all just like

oh my god this is crazy so it is i i struggle with true crime sometimes because of that where it's like the sensationalized part of it and then knowing it's a real person is like it's just hard for me sometimes but i know there are really good ways to approach it that have like really helped people so it's another one of those yeah i was one of those where i also watched the clips of it but i think the family fully participated so then there's that also thing of like and there must be some catharsis in telling the probably you're right but and and i think you know they were i mean not that old but i guess she was still at least like like graduated college right kind of like telling yeah but yeah and then there's that just me using it as a cautionary tale with my kids and being like see at least i'm not

bullied you you're like i'm actually pretty great give me mother of the year word yeah yes it is where you were saying to about current height 451 it is wild how when you go back and read stuff from other time periods like you really are like oh a lot of history uh repeats itself just in different ways because i had that experience i just read um the parable of the sower and the parable of the talents by octavia butler and the amount of things that she predicted are wild. Like, there's like a literally a president elected in 2025 whose slogan is Make America Great Again.

And she wrote this in like the 90s. And I'm just like, it kind of what we were talking about earlier, like the people who like need to be the most anxious, which are as a black woman, especially at that time. Not that it's like weeks better at the moment. but like she had to pay attention. And so it's like I'm like noticing like how how the people who like have more reason to be anxious or hypervigilant are actually so good at predicting stuff. And it's just like, I can listen to writers, maybe? But yeah, it's wild how much can kind of like the people who are observing things end up telling stories that may predict the future, which is kind of wild.

So you were kind of mentioning, like, this isn't just like a strict, like, police procedural. There's, like, other layers to it. So how do you, how do you, like, tell how to keep the pacing going, but also, like, the emotional depth happening? Like, I know some people are like, oh, I can read and I can tell, like, oh, I would be bored. but like how do you kind of approach that um well i think you know i always come from as their want strong enough because i think if what they want and what they need is uh is it is compelling and hopefully that'll carry you through the book right so um you know katherine's want is to get her daughter back that's a pretty compelling want and to get her back in one piece and um to use all her resources

is available to do that. And then as the story develops, and she kind of, you know, her character's kind of forced to take a hard look at her marriage because she's excused a lot of things, as I think women sometimes in these situations do, but I also think society does, where it's like, we have a lot of tolerance for our geniuses, right?

It's like, oh, we're a genius. So we're gonna look the other way when you do that you're a genius, but you know, you went up to the island a few times, but like you're a genius, you know, and, and so, and not that I'm a fan of council culture, I'm just saying that I think, you know, people have a lot of facets. And I think, you know, we also do this with celebrities. We lionize them and then we're like shocked at the person who has a skill, a really beautiful skill at conveying human emotion on screen, you know, is a hot mess once they're up. Oh, they could have been acting like a good person?

I'm shocked. Right. They're not a paragon of morality. Yeah. So we kind of, we did these things. And I think Catherine's a good example of that. And then even in a, in the partnership, she has excused a lot of stuff and has, you know, turned a blind eye to behaviors because she feels like, well, but, you know, this is the price of being with somebody who, is going to be this powerful and is going to change the world and is and she's also forced to look at

how that has affected not only her marriage but her as a parent right making these excuses and so um i think as she comes to that realization and then how that allows her to operate at the end right kind of like feeling like you know i think she does a bit of a 180 because she she she's made to realize, like, for years, I have not been the parent I imagined that I was. I thought I was being protective and I thought I was being hyper vigilance and, you know, a good mom in all these ways. And kind of like I led a wolf into the hen house. And, you know, and so then she becomes, and I'm not going to ever do that again. And so I think, I think, you know, you try to have them arc and learn something about themselves and hopefully that's that keeps people going so

that was her arc and um you know and i think alice's arc is kind of learning um i think maybe the ways that she's been selfish you know and so at the end needing to rely on people who she's been dismissive of and hasn't really thought how you know how her actions while she's been very concentrated on how, you know, they affect her, not so much how they might be affecting other people. Yeah. I feel like it's like that's a really empathetic take because like we and to your point about cancel culture, we don't want to just like cancel or never talk to again people who like she can't help that she grew up in the bubble she grew up in. And so is the conversations I've been kind of having more in general lately is about like what what do you do or what do people do when they're confronted with the new information.

Like if they were just ignorant before, then like does it change their perspective? Like it's kind of like once they have the knowledge, how are they going to act now? And I feel like that was still, that was pretty powerful with her arc is like she can't help like her. none of us can help how our parents basically design our childhoods for us. So yeah, I thought there's a lot of cool, emotional stuff going on there with both of them. With the villains and the game, was there anything like difficult about writing like the riddles, like that specific part? I had a lot of fun with them.

I think, you know, they're pretty meta because I, and also I, I, you know, as it, there's also the question of how much do the kidnappers want you to solve the riddle versus how much are they deliberately being cryptic and crazy just for attention, right? Which was also something that really came out of the Patty Hurst kidnapping and they wrote a lot of crazy stuff. Yeah. And some of it was clearly, well, some of it may have been because they were on drugs and just being crazy.

But then some of it, I think, was. because, you know, they would write these long manifestos because they wanted the attention. They wanted the media attention on it. And, you know, to sit there and say, hey, this and this and this kind of a little clearly, they would kind of lose. I think in some ways they were very, they were very aware when the cameras were on them, right? And so they were, and there was a lot of theater that went into that. I mean, yes, they were rob. banks at one point, right? But, which I'm sure was for money, but with the whole, you know, the videos that they

would do before, right? This is like before social media where like the videos, they staged her with her, you know, with a hat, like that, that Tam, you know, and Ray and the, and the machine gun. Like they were very much aware what images and are going, and what kind of were. are going to keep the media's attention. And I think that the kidnappers here are using the riddles in a similar way. So there's the whole, there's like the victim crowd and like spectator. Like there are kind of like all of those perspectives throughout.

Like we're actually not just living in like one person's perspective kind of or it's like touching on all of that. Was that like intentional too that you kind of wanted to talk about how everyone reacts to these kinds of things. Yeah, I wanted to show that there was, you know, I mean, there's only two point of views. Right. I wanted to know that there's that the kidnappers' ideas and media spectacle and that they are creating, you know, what they intended.

And also, you know, being a journalist for years, I think it's an honest, you know, portrayal of the kind of spectacle that would be created. Yeah. With something like that, you know, with like the news. helicopters and the whole wave, I think I refer to it as like a multi, it's like a centipede coming toward you where it's like this mass of bodies and cameras and yeah. And so, yeah, you know, but I think it's funny, especially I think this new generation, even more so than mine, because I see my kids, they have just a comfort with the camera,

right, and with that sort of attention that I certainly don't. because they've just going up. And I'm partially to blame, like, since they were born, and it was like, my own for mommy, you know, like. And let me tag it so your entire childhood can be, you know. Documented. And so I'm dealing with a generation here that is kind of very media savvy. And they have this comfort with the spectacle and public attention that I think is unique to them.

Yeah. It's like every now and then I'll see I'll see like TikToks of like six or seven year olds who are like pretending to be YouTubers or like they like sit down there like hey guys blah blah blah and I'm like they like they're so young and they know how to like act like an influencer. It is a little bit it is a little wild seeing that. I mean I'm guilty of a during COVID I thought all those all these like science experiments. sets because the one thing I thought that was going to get lost was, you know, because they couldn't do, there was no hands on science since everything. So my kids did all like 150 Dyson engineering and science experiments and we videotape them all like a show.

And they like took them through and had to sit there and be like, okay, guys, today we're going to learn about, you know. And I thought it was a way that it was making it fun and probably also. selfishly preserving it. Well, that's okay. My own memories. But yeah, it was cute. We did every single one.

COVID lasted so long. And then we also did, I think, like, all of the male science experiments, like every mail order. Yeah. So, I don't know. They become mad scientists. I like to think I'll have something to do with that.

Oh, totally. You'd be like, look at who helps get you excited about this stuff. that's okay we've blue step up don't you remember right that's awesome yeah i mean it's not it's not an inherently bad thing that kids know how to do like social media speak or whatever it's not just like everything we're kind of talking about there's a lot of things where it's not all good or all bad so i'm thinking if they are doing science experiments is probably okay I thought I mean they made me take down the channel as they got older they're like it's so bad yeah yeah

yeah that I have a niece who's hit that phase where she's like don't post me mom she's like okay fine I won't but yeah um obviously I loved it I really enjoyed it anyone who loves thrillers like we were talking about that have some emotional depths to them and talk about some social issues as well you guys need to go grab a copy. As of the time that this is airing, you can go grab a copy. And I do always ask at the end if you, if you've had a book you loved recently or if there's a book that you like always recommend to people.

Oh, geez. Okay. Well, it's not out yet, but Vanessa Lulet's newest one I'm really excited for. So that's, that's blood. sisters. No, let's just was the first one. The bone thief. The bone thief. Sorry. I knew I was going to say it wrong because I'm like, I just finished talking about sisters as the word sisters is in my head. Yes. Yes. The bone thief. So I'm excited about that one. And I mean, if people have a chance, it's funny. I just read Fahrenheit 451 and oh yeah. Literally just I read it yesterday. It's so it's so short. It's almost like a in between like a book and a

short story. But it's a yeah it's just kind of wild how how prescient some of it is. Obviously there's the overarching threat of nuclear war that I think we feel less concerned about now. Maybe wrongly. I'm just saying yeah, who knows. But yeah so I'd say give that one a look again. It's kind of it's kind of crazy yeah you're making me want to reread it so i probably will here soon well thank you so much for talking with me about this and obviously writing it was very fun and yeah um i'm excited to see what you're working on next