Bookwild - Chelsea Bieker's Madwoman: Motherhood, and Cycle Breakers

Episode Date: September 3, 2024

This week, I got to talk with Chelsea Bieker about her powerful emotional suspense novel Madwoman.  We dive into the story's exploration of motherhood, traumatic childhoods, coping mechanisms, anxiety and integration.  Madwoman SynopsisThe world is not made for mothers.Yet mothers made the world…Clove has gone to extremes to keep her past a secret. Thanks to her lies, she’s landed the life of her dreams, complete with a safe husband and two adoring children who will never know the terror that was routine in her own childhood. If her buried anxiety threatens to breach the surface, Clove (if that is really her name) focuses on finding the right supplement, the right gratitude meditation. But when she receives a letter from a women’s prison in California, her past comes screeching into the present, entangling her in a dangerous game with memory and the people she thought she had outrun. As we race between her precarious present-day life in Portland, Oregon and her childhood in a Waikiki high-rise with her mother and father, Clove is forced to finally unravel the defining day of her life. How did she survive that day, and what will it take to end the cycle of violence? Will the truth undo her, or could it ultimately save her? Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I really had a time period where the fear that I could become like my mother, God rest her soul, was so palpable to me that it felt really urgently dangerous because I think my brain could not wrap around how it was. She became the way she was. I could not make sense of it. I couldn't make sense of her choices. I couldn't make sense of how her life spun out from where it began. Like it was just a nonsensical sort of path. And so I think I had a very like real fear in my brain of like that could happen to you because why did it happen to your mom? And I remember at that time like going to therapy and really unpacking it because I was truly living in this fear that I knew logically didn't make sense. But it felt very real to me. And that's what the book is very much about. like memory, trauma, all these things that if we take a logic look at, we're like, well,

of course I realize that I'm out of danger now. But the body does not realize that. And that's what the work is. And that's what was so hard for me to not feel that that sense of actual terror that I would just wake up one day and I would be in her shoes. This week I got to talk with Chelsea Beaker, who is the author of Mouckel. books, but we are talking about Mad Woman, which just came out today. This is going to be one of those books that I just talk about forever and ever and ever, and I know it's going to be on the

top of my 2024 favorites. So I was very excited for this interview. I had 174 highlights after I finished this book, so I was seriously worried that I would try to talk to her for like hours, but we kept it to an hour somehow. But this is what it's about. The world is not made for mothers, yet mothers made the world. Klove has gone to extremes to keep her past a secret. Thanks to her lies, she's landed the life of her dreams, complete with a safe husband and two adoring children who will never know the terror that was routine in her own childhood.

If her buried anxiety threatens to breach the surface, Klove, if that's really her name, focuses on finding the right supplement, at the right gratitude meditation. But when she receives a letter from a women's prison in California, her past comes screeching into the present, entangling her in a dangerous game with memory and the people she thought she had outrun.

As we race between her precarious present day life in Portland, Oregon, and her childhood in a Waikiki high-rise with her mother and father, Clote was forced to finally unravel the defining day of her life. How did she survive that day, and what will it take to end the story?

cycle of violence. Will the truth undo her or could it ultimately save her? A gripping story of motherhood and mother loss, intimate terrorism and terrifying love, the insidious ways male violence disrupts mothers and daughters and the brutal, mighty things women do to keep themselves and each other alive. Mad Woman marks Chelsea Beaker as a major fiction talent. I agree with everything there at the end. This book is so emotionally poignant. and very, very psychological suspense, emotional suspense. You feel everything that Clove is feeling. And as you can imagine from what you've heard of her childhood, anxiety is pretty pervasive in her life. So you just feel all of it as she tries to figure out how she's going to keep the life that she's carefully created for herself.

So I loved getting to talk to Chelsea about this one. We dive into all. of the complexities of motherhood, the cycles of domestic abuse, and also the long-lasting effects of PTSD from your childhood. So with that being said, let's hear from Chelsea. Before we dive into Mad Woman, I did want to get to know a little bit about you. So what was the moment that you were like, I want to be an author, or what was the moment when you were like, I think I'm going to write a book. Yeah.

I think like so many authors, I was just so in love with books as a child. They provided such a safe space, and I loved the way it felt to get lost in a story. So I think that's pretty universal for most writers. And then in high school, I just loved to read. I knew that I just wanted to always be reading. and I did like writing. I think I had in my mind that I wanted to write books, but it wasn't really until one of my English teachers sort of noticed that about me,

and she asked me to come write for the school paper. So that was a big turning point because prior to that, I didn't have a ton of direction, and it allowed me to feel really like I was sort of part of this thing that was bigger than me. And I was seeing my name, like, my byline and things that I'd written, people were reading. And that exchange, I think at an early age, really shaped that desire to want to put work into the world and have that back and

forth. So I kind of pursued journalism actually first, but was always writing fiction. I always knew that I really wanted to be writing fiction, but I will say what journalism really did for me was it really honed my curiosity because I was interviewing so many people and I was able to pursue the stories that I was interested in and it also taught me to really write on a deadline so I could turn around copy really quickly and I think that helped my fiction writing in the end because I'm not so precious about where I write when I write how I write I just know that I can do it whenever so I'm grateful for that sort of beginning. Yeah, that's a really good point.

point. Like, you're already used to it having to be kind of regimented and, like, finished on time. That's cool. It's a cool way that that kind of translated into everything. With your fiction, how do you approach that writing process? So do you typically know, like, do you outline, do you just pants it? Like, how do you get into your writing process? I love the term dancing. You'll be better or pantser. Yeah. I think that I definitely, I go in on a feeling. I don't do a lot of planning. I don't do a lot of outlining, but definitely around the middle of the process, an outline becomes really important, especially for a book that has quite an active plot, I would say. I love books with wild plots and twists and turns.

and when you start to figure out what the story is really about, it's helpful then to have that sort of framework really dialed in for yourself. So with Mad Woman, once I felt pretty confident in the story, and this is like a year and a half into writing it or more, I realized, you know, I could get more of a bird's eye view of it and really be more strategic about when certain things were happening. and the sort of rhythm of the plot, I use this sort of like three act structure where I just wrote out three columns and literally wrote like every scene, every beat that was happening. And so I could track when certain things were happening.

And that was really useful. But that was really only something I could use after I had written more from that like intuitive heart space first. because that's where the real story lives to me and that's where the discovery is. However, you know, like, I'm writing a new book right now and I think I know kind of what it's about, but I know in the writing process I will ultimately be surprised. Yeah. And that's the best part. So I can plan a little bit, but I know that I hold that really loosely.

Yeah. You kind of have to feel it first. That's especially with this one, because I would almost call it like emotional suspense the whole time. I could see how you're coming from. from the feeling first. With your characters, do you kind of get to know them in that first process where you're just kind of like feeling out what the story is?

Yeah, I feel like once I hook into a voice, I start to understand more about them. Once I can hear the way they talk and the way they're thinking, it really informs how they're gonna see everything, what they're gonna do. So it's really based in that more sonic, knowing of how a person sounds and how they talk. And I think that that's always been the way that I've written where I just will hear a voice or a line come to me and I'll,

and sometimes it's like a strange way to say something or a strange way to see something. And I'll be like, okay, that informs me of how they're going to see this other thing and this other thing. And it's really fun, actually. It's sort of that moment where, you know, the narrator of Mad Woman especially is very similar to me. A lot of the conditions of her life are very similar to mine. And it's probably the most close to the bone character I've ever written. However, you know, as I got deeper in there, I was able to see the ways we are different. And some of that is rooted in the way she talks and thinks. And that branches often becomes its own thing. Yeah. So even if a character is sort of based on someone or rooted in my reality, it always

shifts and becomes its own thing because of the voice, I think. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Well, it sounds like some of the inspiration then might have been from your own experiences, but what was your initial inspiration for, Mad Woman? Well, the very, very, very first little seed came long before I ever wrote it. And it was my daughter, she's 10 now and she was two at the time. So it was quite a while ago. But I, when I stopped breastfeeding her, I had what's called like post-weening anxiety and depression disorder set in.

And I was totally gobsmacked. I had no idea that could even happen to you. But it really kind of sent me on this path, this sort of healing journey, if you will to figure out like what is going on why do I feel so insane and and no one's really I mean there's very little studies around this of course like many women's issues and it really required me to piece things together myself and and see a lot of you know specialists and all these healers and and I think in that process I had this this moment where I went out one night.

I hadn't been away from my daughter at all. Like since she was born, that was kind of part of my like postpartum anxiety is that I just never wanted to leave her. But I went to a reading. And when I was there, there was this younger woman there who was so much fun and we really hit it off. And as we were talking and hanging out that night, I couldn't help but think of the ways that I had changed since becoming a mother. Like it really felt so stark to me in contrast to this younger woman before me where I was like, oh my God, I see myself in her. I'm reflected in her, but also I am so different than I was. And that was so startling.

And it made me really start to think about the ways that motherhood had changed my identity. And also, I think it was sort of the seed of the character of Jane in the book, this person that comes into her life that she really wants to be a bit of a mentor to or like warn her a little bit about about what motherhood is like, what aging feels like, all those things. And I think that that little seed was really born that night. I came home and I wrote a really fast little short story called Mad Woman. And then I just put it away. But but I always went back to it. I really loved the energy that it felt very urgent. And so, you know, in 2020, when the pandemic happened and my book tour was canceled for my first novel, I just decided to write this book. I was like,

now I have, now I have time to sit and kind of stew about what this voice is trying to say. And it turned into something much more than I bargained for. So. Yeah, that's powerful that it came from that. And keeping with that, the first, like, I think it's four sentences are so powerful. Like, I'm always so impressed when it feels like the whole of the novel is almost included in those first few sentences. But it starts off with the world is not made for mothers, yet mothers made the world. The world is not made for children, yet children are the future. So what, like, drew you to write? about how vital mothers are, but how we also kind of look down on them and definitely don't accommodate for them in our society. And also that like children are so important because they are the future, but some people really don't take it seriously, like what it means to like raise a kid. Yeah, I think that when I became a mother, I was sort of not prepared for the ways the world was not made for me and my kids.

Like in very practical ways. There's a scene in the book where she's at the post office. And I feel like any, you don't even have to be a mother to relate to this feeling, but any mother will relate to this feeling where you kind of enter a space and you feel total dread because you can see all the ways it's not going to work for a small child. to be in that space, yet you have to mail the package. Like you have to do the thing. Right. And the post office became this like metaphor in a way for me because I was like,

here I am in this very public space that should be for everyone. And it's set up in such a way for me to totally fail because they had this, they literally, I have a picture of it. This Lego, it was this rendering of a post office made of like a post office made of Legos, it was at child height behind a glass case, but it wasn't locked. So, I mean, the sliding glass door alone kids are going to want to play with. It's just, it's sort of, but then the total judgment and disdain that we fell me when my really small son was like wanting to play with these Legos, a literal child's toy, but he couldn't, but it was just such a mess. And it was right in the line. So I was

like I have to stand in this line for 20 minutes with this late-go set, but he can't touch it, but the glass door is at his eye level. It was crazy. And by the time I got to the checkout counter, I was crying. Like, it's not so dramatic, but I was at this point of desperation where I was like, I would love to just get back in my car and leave, but I don't know when I'll ever, like I was the primary caretaker. It's not like I was going to get another day. that I'd be alone where I could do this errand. And I sort of felt defiant too where I was like, no, I'm staying in this space and I'm going to mail this damn package. But it was just this portrait of a much bigger issue, right? It's not just the post office. It's all these spaces

that don't accommodate mothers. And I felt very like pushed to the side of society in a way where it's like, well, you can just go to the park, lady. You just go where you belong. to your mommy group in the park. And it was an odd sensation where it's like on one hand, I was really enjoying being a mom and I loved my kids so much. There was so much about it I loved, but there was also this like sensation that I wasn't really part of society anymore, which sounds really crazy. And when you think about it, right? Like, yeah, we're on the surface so, like people really want to act like, you know, investing in children is that's so important. That's the future.

But it's, they're not investing in children. Our country doesn't invest in children and mothers. And that is the problem. I think if you paid mothers, if you provided resources, if you invested in schools and the arts, all those things that we know, our society would be so much better for it. But it's sort of this weird. I don't know, not to get into all the politics too, but it's just this weird missing piece where none of it really adds up. And I wanted to kind of show that frustration in the book,

how it plays out on a day-to-day level at that really micro level. Yeah. So yeah, it was reminding me that scene one of my friends was reading the book at the same time as me. And so I was like talking to her about it and I was like that opening scene, I was like, it really, like, it's not, but it feels like horror. Like it is the like horrors of motherhood. Like I was like, I don't have kids, but the like the clove is, she's crying. She, I think she's been headbutted, right?

So she's like bleeding too. She's crying. She's bleeding and her boobs are leaking. And I'm just like, as someone who like, if I'm sweaty in public, I'm like starting to be over-simulated, I was like, this is like, it's such, I really, appreciate authors who kind of like show the really unflinching realness of what motherhood is and it was it was such a way to start the story thank you yeah it was yeah you know it's funny the first the first lines of the book the ones that you read i was nervous with starting the book with those because i am conscious i was like is this sexy enough is this like cool enough will this immediately

people will put it down because they're like, I don't want to read about moms and kids. And that's, I had to just stand strong in that and be like, no, this is important. This is a provocative way to start the story, actually. But I felt that sense. I probably looked for some other lines thinking, like, is there another way in? But for this book, there's really not. It's really foundational. And the book is not just about that, but it's about, but it touches everything.

And actually, I had a friend tell me when I was kind of debating this, she was like, everyone has been mothered. Everyone has been cared for. It is universal that if you were born, someone was in charge of you. You know, like we all know what it's like to love a mother, yearn for a mother. be mothered, whether or not we are mothers or will ever be mothers, we all know what that is. And so in that sense, it does apply to everyone, I believe. So. Yeah, it really does. So Clove is, she's, she's obsessed with doing motherhood and doing her whole life differently

than how her mom did it. Like it's a big preoccupation for her. And she's like ruminating on it a lot, too. So how did you approach writing, like, kind of her inner monologue and how she's kind of, like, trapped with the fact that she doesn't, um, trapped in her obsession of being who or not being something instead of like knowing what she does want to be. I love how you put that. Like she's preoccupied with not being a certain thing. It was a big part of my own therapy. so I felt it. I know. I know that you said that that was a really connective point for you.

And I think it was like, you know, for me, I really had a time period where the fear that I could become like my mother, God rest her soul, you know, was so palpable to me that it felt really urgently dangerous because I think my brain could not wrap. around how it was she became the way she was. Yes. I could not make sense of it. I couldn't make sense of her choices. I couldn't make sense of how her life spun out from where it began. Like it was just a nonsensical sort of path. And so I think I had a very like real fear in my brain of like that could happen to you

because why did it happen to your mom? I mean, like, because I couldn't make sense of it, I started feeling like it could happen to me at any moment. And I remember at that time, like, going to therapy and really unpacking it because I was truly living in this fear that I knew logically didn't make sense, but it felt very real to me. And that's what the book is very much about is like memory, trauma, all these things that if we take a logic, look at we're like well of course i realize that i'm out of danger now um but the body does not realize that and that's what my work is and that's what was so hard for me um to not feel that that sense of actual terror that i would wake up one day and i would be in her shoes and yeah i'm out of that and so i can look back at it and be like wow that was really

intense like that was a true fear. And also, yeah, and it ties in with the way that this narrator is terrified of memory. I mean, how do you make memory scary? It's just memory, right? But I wanted to, that was the challenge of writing the book where I was like, I want to really show how PTSD works. And PTSD does not care about logic. It's in the room, it's urgent, and it's telling you something is very wrong, even if you're just in a rocking chair with your infant. And I had to learn that for myself. And I was like, I have to try to write this somehow. Yeah. Yeah. I think the other kind of element of like the really intense emotional suspense is she's afraid of becoming the enabler and kind of like the doormat that her mom was. But she also is afraid like when she's.

angry and has some of those like what we typically call negative feelings but aren't always negative feelings then she's scared of being her abusive father as well so what and that that just sticks out to me like I just I really understand like when when the genetics that were given to you are from people who you never want your life to look like it's it can be so overwhelming um so how did you kind of like incorporate that and was that kind of always part of the goal like with some of the emotional suspense absolutely i mean the title madwoman is a play on many different meanings and at it core to me it's about not only like the label of madwoman given to women who are quote unquote crazy um and wanting to flip that on its head and be like no for me this is about anger this is

about I'm mad. I'm mad in the sense that I'm angry. And so it has all these meanings, but I wanted to show a narrator who is feeling not only like fear about becoming her mom, but actually recognizing within her that she holds so much anger. Yeah. And that does mirror back her father, who he's a very angry person and a violent. person and someone who goes into what she calls the red out zone where the anger goes almost

into this total blackout zone and he becomes violent. And she feels what's interesting is she actually, I think, is more similar to her father than her mother. In her personality, in her disposition, even her physicality, she kind of looks in the mirror and she sees him looking back at her. And that's sort of haunting because she has to grapple with those. impulses in herself that I think there's a line in the book where she's like the only difference between me and my father is that I can take that breath that I can take that breath and and it's also

an exercise right in like some level of compassion for him too it's not black and white he's not just this villain he's someone that she's forced to kind of see the complexity of him as well and that was also important to me. I don't I don't love a story where someone is just a villain. It's like just a bad guy. It's like yeah, well, yeah, but generally in life that it's more complicated than that. And yeah, and it definitely is for her father and she has to entertain the ways that, yeah, they are similar despite. Yeah. Despite her. Yeah. I loved that sentence you reference where it is like the big differences that she's able to take a breath because that's sometimes what happens for me, especially like when I'm PMSing. And so my thoughts are so ragey. And sometimes you're like, oh, my God, like, I'm going to start

being an explosive person. But like, I have to remind myself, like, it's, there's a, there is a difference if I keep it in my head and don't blow it up on other people. So I, I do like that, that sentence for that. That's the whole difference. And, and, you know, women expressing anger, right, It's like we don't have a real format for that. Like, as soon as you express anger, you fall into that crazy, you know, the crazy territory, the mad woman. Like, and you're not taken seriously anymore. It's very hard to figure out, you know, how do we express anger in a healthy way? And I think that we must express it.

Like, we have to let it out somehow. And because otherwise, you know, it just turns back on us. just turns into that disease in the body and yes she's contending with that because you know like under every sadness or under every anger madness is just behind it's like it's they're always connected they're always together so that was one of my other highlights it was like but aren't there always tears behind anger yeah oh yeah I know they're all but yeah I love that you said PMS you know I'm like the luteal. I think also in the book, he's like, I allow myself one throat shredding scream into a pillow during my luteal phase. Because sometimes I think that phase for women almost offers

this little window where we express our true feelings, right? It like shines a light that is real within us, but we finally have this like hormonal permission to let it out. Right. So I've, I've been trying really hard to be like, okay, the feelings and thoughts that come up during that phase of my cycle are not irrational. They're actually true. They just are able to rise all the way up. Yeah. I can really look at them.

So. Yeah. That was a really good point. That was a reframe for me. I was like, yeah, this isn't actually irrational. I've just lost my ability to tamp it down. Yeah. Yes.

It's just like elevated, basically. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that happens with Klove is she gets to a point where she doesn't want her relationships, basically as an adult moving forward, to just be founded in pity. And so that's kind of what makes her decide to just kind of make a whole new life for herself and everyone she meets moving forward. Like she's telling a different story than what was real.

So how did you kind of like approach creating those moments where like pity felt overwhelming? Yeah, I think that that was really a huge theme of the book. I think a lot about how so much of my writing is this idea of writing into what I call personal fantasy. So like on the page, you know, I can have interactions, conversations, confrontations. I could watch a scenario play out that I can't access in my real life, right?

There can be like an improbable say at the last minute. There can be a run-in that serendipitous that would never normally really happen. Or, you know, there can be a way to explore things like pity in this really palpable way, which I felt was important for the book. and that idea of personal fantasy includes not carrying one story around.

You know, I felt at various times in my life that my story or what I've experienced in my childhood felt like sort of a ball and chain that I'm just like carry. It's a heavy backpack, you know, and sometimes I'm like, can I just set this down? Like, I actually don't want to contend with it at all. Like, could I just pretend to be some sound? else. And I mean, in real life, no, I can't really do that. Or I never did. But I was like, what if this character really goes to an extreme to do that? Is there something so wrong with that? You know, is she owed a fresh start in that extreme way? And of course, the book is about

the fact that that doesn't necessarily work, you know, like our, those memories, our past lives within us. a much deeper way. So eventually they have to be confronted. But she really wants to see if maybe she could sidestep that. So yeah, it was yeah, it really does. Yeah, it does remind me like of, she is trying to dissociate from it completely as much as she can. And then I think kind of what you're talking about without giving anything away, I thought it was cool that some of her arc is about reintegration and like owning all the parts of yourself and all of that but i felt that before where i'm like i don't want my trauma to be the only thing people know or remember about me and it does change yeah the the feeling in the room a little bit like i think especially in some

of my early like dating experiences or romantic relationships i I could just feel that it was outsized or something. I didn't like it. And maybe that's something about my partner. I mean, we've been together for a very long time. And there's no chance I could have hit in anything, really. But, you know, I really sensed that he was not seeing me necessarily with that, like, filter. for whatever reason.

But other partners in the past, I could tell that it was always sort of in the room in a way that sometimes would feel nice because you're being seen. But also I think I just have this like independent streak that didn't love that feeling. And I was like, no, I want to be more in charge with how I'm being seen. Yes. I guess. Yep. I feel you there.

on that a lot. I hope you're enjoying this episode of Book Wild, and if you are, could I ask you a favor? Could you go and rate and review this podcast and whatever platform you're listening? Ratings and reviews make the biggest difference in discoverability of the podcast, and I definitely want to find all of our fellow thriller readers out there. So if you could go rate the podcast and leave a short review, that would make a huge difference. Thank you, and let's get back to the show. Klova also, she's kind of, we talked about it. She gets a little bit obsessed with the idea of also becoming a mother almost to kind of like prove that she could do it better or the right way than her mother did. And so she has these kids, but then also kind of starts to realize,

like there's a sentence about how eventually they just become mirrors that are reflecting stuff back to her. And even though she's like done all this research and stuff, it's, it's not perfect. So how did you kind of approach that part of the story? line that's like wanting motherhood so bad and then also realizing how difficult it is even if you're not in an abusive situation yeah it's um i just remember you know from my earliest thoughts um in childhood thinking i really want to experience family i want a normal family i was so taken by these normal families i'm doing quote marks you know uh families that seems to like really exist in this very basic way that just seems so easy and nice and and I was like

one day I want that I know I want that and if I can get that then somehow it will I don't know absolve me right and you know in some ways it does it's like she's clove is very um educated on you know healing modalities and wellness and all these things and And she is really convinced that if she can have this, you know, experiential healing by sort of like rewriting the past by having this present opposite experience, that she will be sort of relieved of the pain of her experiences that she had in childhood. And in some ways, right, that is true. Like, it can be extremely healing to have a very very. opposite experience. And that's really beautiful. And then also, right, there is the sense that it works in both directions. Because when she sees her kids, she's feeling the strains of motherhood,

even in much better circumstances. She has to re-entertain what she knows about her own mother. I think that was the biggest thing. She becomes a mom and she's like, oh, shit, this is still kind of hard and my life is way better than my mom's and how how could I have expected my mom to mother under those conditions and that's like light bulb I think it's like this novel where she's having to expand compassion and also narrow this anger because it's both yeah she's like angry at her mom but also she's having to expand in compassion at the same time um yeah which is just a lot of growing pains. It is. Yeah. What you're kind of talking about, too, is their anger is definitely directed at her father. He's kind of like the most overt abuser in the family, but especially she gets older as a

child and also then later as an adult. She really has a lot of resentment, too, toward her mother for because it feels like she didn't love her enough to get them out of such a bad situation. And so that's kind of more of the covert abuse that sometimes happens when one parent's just letting the other parent run wild with their abuse. So how how did you kind of like approach that as well? I think sometimes people get so focused on like just being angry at the abusive parent. Yeah. And then later in life, you know, realized, but like my quote unquote nice parent didn't care enough to protect me either. And now that

I'm an adult, I would have protected my child. Yeah. Yeah, it was hugely important for me to show sort of those longer effects of domestic violence. And one of them is clove reckoning with the feeling she has toward her mother. And her mother is the victim of the circumstance, but also clove can't help but feel that her mother really kept them in this place of suffering. And what I hope it shows, too, is like the psychology behind prolonged abuse is really significant. Like your brain is changed from that abuse. And so you're actually not necessarily always able to get out of that cycle. But for a child, you cannot understand. it. From your advantage as the child, it just looks insane. You're like, why don't we leave? You know,

why are we going back after that? Or there's no logical sense that a child can make sense of that. And so they just, she feels angry at her mom. She's like, you're the one driving us back. You're the one, you know, covering for him. You're the one. And of course, that's like misdirected anger. But it's anger nonetheless. It's still there. And she, because they're so, I really feel that, you know, there's so much emphasis on her mom's addiction in the book. You know, as the dad uses it against her when the police come. Oh, she's an alcoholic.

Don't listen to her. You know, but no one is thinking about her, the abuse she's enduring in the greater conversation of her. sobriety or recovery or anything and that's a huge misstep because you know the addiction and the abuse are totally holding hands in the book yeah the mom really doesn't have much I mean the sad truth is is like when you're in that deep to get out is like extremely complex it's it requires probably a lot of support that generally is not all that available and I think people have this idea like there's resources, just find some resources. And it's like even when you are have the wherewithal to find resources, they're extremely limited. So you know, you need a shelter for the night. There might not be a

bed. And you've got a kid. There's not always help. And we we don't realize that. And so I, I wish that there was always help, but there's just not. And and so it's not, the conversation is so much more complex than like she should have just left you know um yeah and i i just i wanted the book to show that i think that a lot of like more i don't know i feel like some portrayals of domestic violence that we see in stories or media or these like really popular narratives don't account for that complexity they are showing this version that is totally unrealistic to most surviving. of domestic violence. And I guess, I guess we, those become popular because we like that simplicity in some way, because it makes sense to us. But that's just not the reality for most people.

Yeah. Kind of some of that nuance too comes out. Because one of her mom's friends, well, they become friends with a daughter and a mom as well. One of her mom's friends is like, is basically asking her like and you're going to go back to him again. And she, her mom says, well, yeah, I love him. And the friend Christina says, you don't love him.

You love being a victim. And so that is like, also there's a book, if some people have been in therapy, it's a book called Addicted to Misery. That's like, that even that becomes your addiction. So that,

that was what I thought was really fascinating about what you did with her mom was like there there is empathy for her too kind of all the things you just mentioned but you're also still like okay but you've kind of like you've kind of like decided that you'd like being the victim and you're just going to kind of stay here is what eventually happens over time yeah because it's wild how the brain tells you that that is the safer choice. Ultimately, like that familiarity to that feeling becomes this like this reward center in the brain, which is, it is really mind boggling. And from an outside perspective, it's infuriating, you know, like to watch someone kind of over and over just throw themselves into the fire. And you're like, what? But I mean, it's, it's very nuanced. And I think maybe, you know,

know, Kloves' mom wants a better life for them, but she kind of also at the same time can't imagine what that would be. Like, I think she has really been reduced and diminished to the point that her self-worth is so low that even if there was a solution right in front of her, I don't know if she could take it. You know, like that self-worth is so low that she has totally started to believe that this lifestyle is what she deserves. And that's that like really messed up psychology of abuse. Right. Yeah. And then it creates the kind of like I feel like again, I'm trying to tiptoe around spoilers, but it also creates such a confusing situation for Klove even because even kind of like

you were saying expanding some compassion even when she can maybe see her mom or start to understand her as a human and like all of those things it still doesn't like negate the like things that have hurt clove and made her like approach life the way that she does too so it is it is it's so complex because you can kind of see it from an outsider's perspective but then when you're the kid who had to like survive it and it felt like no one cared about you it's hard to like move forward with that as an adult well i think that that was a huge reason that the book is written in a direct address to the mom because you're right i love that what you just said there's a sense that within the stress and confines of living under this like regime of domestic violence there is not a lot of room

to have true connection, to really know someone, because you're in survival mode, right? So her mom is only ever looking at her through the lens of like herself. Like how are you going to save me or like we, we, it's us against your father. But very almost no time is ever devoted to the parents looking at their daughter and being like, hey, what do you like? You know, like, they're just asking that question. And she's so aware of that as an adult. She's like, I don't have any memories of like doing normal childhood things because I was always

in this weird three-pronged relationship with you two. And it was all about you two, you know? Yeah. Despite all this compassion we can garner at the end, she was totally not parented. And she feels resentful for that. So the book is a little bit like, hey, you're going to look at me. You're going to look at my life. I want you to know me for who I really am.

And I'm speaking directly to you. And I felt like that was a very, I knew the book had to be written in that format. Yeah. Yeah. I loved it. I've felt that part very much through all of it. The other thing I noticed, I think. So there's one guy that she dates early in her life, and we never learned his name.

He's just the butcher. And I could be wrong because I realized it halfway through. But I think we also just addressed her husband as my husband. I don't know if we ever learned his name. Was that a creative choice? And I mean, I'm going to ask if you were taking some power away from the men by not giving them names. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, I was for sure. I think it just, it was really an impulse I just had. When I first started writing it, I just had them named that way. And it kind of stuck. Like, I didn't really see a reason for names for them. Yeah, I get it. I think it's okay. Yeah.

And we don't learn the father's name, his real name. Yeah. We know his nickname. But yeah, I think that that sometimes a move like that can be distracting at its worst, right? You're like, there really should be a reason behind it. And it should be done, I think, like not like it might be too distracting of every single character did not have a name. You know, I don't want to do. do that to confuse the reader. I think it's pretty clear who is who and and sort of what that

move means. But it's definitely trying to pull focus off of the men in the book. Yeah. I liked it. And I don't think it was distracting because it also did take me until like 50 or 60 percent where I was like, wait a second. I don't think we even know her husband's name. So obviously like I hadn't cared enough to be like, what's his name? So it worked for me. Names are interesting in the book. too where like she goes through a couple different names and and she isn't ever true like super settled in that way for herself because of the scrambling of her identity early on so so there is this sort of like that's mirrored in some of the women too where they're also trying to figure out like what is my name what is my identity after all of this and and I think it's it's sort of this little

thread that runs through yeah It even kind of fits, I'm just realizing this now, what we were talking about at the beginning, where, like, anything that can happen postpartum, but you were talking about weaning specifically with anxiety and depression that can come on. It's also, like, a nod to the fact that, like, even men's health has been prioritized over women's health for, like, centuries or however many years. So it's like, let's just care about the women in this book. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, during the writing of this book, I did a lot of research about that very thing. And it was really shocking to learn that so many medical studies are just, they are done on men's bodies, but those results are applied to women. And men's bodies work very differently than our bodies.

Like, it doesn't, it's so infuriating. I mean, I read this book called, I think it's ordinary insanity by. Sarah Mendendeck. I might be messing with that last name. It was like the kind of book. It was, it's such a good work of journalism, but as I read it,

I was like, I need to throw something across the room because she really outlines how deep this goes and how little women's health is prioritized. And it's really horrifying. I mean, and then you find it out firsthand

because you go, you have a problem like post-weening anxiety. and even the people that are, you know, midwives or lactation consultants, they're kind of like, we don't really know. I mean, it could be this. You could try this. You could, are you taking enough walks? Are you, you're like, oh, I'm going to figure this out on my own.

And what I really found was this total, like what felt like a whispered network on the internet of mom blogs talking about it. And that's where I was getting my information. I was, you know, my doctor was not going to have any medical opinion about the matter. And so, you know, there's a funny moment in the book where the doctor's like, have you tried some chamomile tea? And she's like, I'm beyond camomile tea right now. And that's how I felt too. I was like, what?

Like, of course I've tried that. Like, I'm doing everything I can. And I'm also like, there's no break in. caretaking to address your health and it feels like a real cluster fuck really and it and it is and I part of wanting to write that into the book was like I really want to encounter that in fiction I want I want it to be a thing because it is a thing yeah I just did another interview and the woman I was talking to also had gone through the same thing and I was like what are the chances like it's It's very common, actually.

But we're made to think it's like so rare that a single study can't even be done on it. It's like, no, I know many women who have experienced this. Yeah. That's what I, when you bring up the chamomile tea, that's what I've experienced. I have PCOS and it's a really similar thing where like, they're like, just go on birth control. And like, it helps some of it. And like, I definitely am worse when I'm not on it. But then they'll be like, peppermint tea can be really helpful.

I'm like, I don't think peppermint tea is going to fix this for me. And they're like, do you, like you're saying, they're like, do you exercise? And I'm like, yes, I exercise. Like, I wouldn't be here if I haven't tried some of the things already. You know, right. It's like they're just kind of throwing darts at a board. And of course, like you're like, yeah, exercise, vitamin D, iron. fish oil like magnesium yeah these are like the stand gold standards we all kind of know that

um yes but beyond that like i found also there seemed to be i think even in some mode i don't know if you find this to be true it's like sometimes you also just want a medical professional to acknowledge you're suffering right i wanted them to be like oh that sounds really hard i'm sorry But it was like hard to find even that. It was sort of like, are you making this up? I think you're just tired. And I was like, oh, I've lost the ability to sleep. Like, yeah.

That I can't even sleep. Like I'm still tired that I can't sleep is what's happened. And it's, yeah, it's something that once I was out of it, I could look back and see actually how hard it really was. Because it was so distinct. I was like, it did end. And when it did, I could look back and be like, holy shit, I can't believe I lived through that basically year of feeling that way, feeling like I have just, it felt like someone just plugged me into like an electrical outlet. And I was just always like, zzz. Yeah. But anyway, even back to PMS,

that's the same thing for me. Mine would be so bad. And then you start your period. And like, you're like everything feels fine again. So then like I have to be careful that I don't like obsess in my luteo week of like, okay, I still haven't fixed. I still haven't fixed it. And instead kind of be like, you're just not going to fix it during this week. Exactly. And then you just, you immediately feel better. It's, it is wild when you have those moments and you're like, oh, that's just what was happening. And like how much harder it is to live when that's going on. Well, if we lived in a matriarchy, we would honor cycles. And we don't. We don't. We honor the 24-hour cycle, which is the cycle that meant the male for Ronald cycle.

Yeah, it is. Yeah. And that's the cycle. Our entire lives are scheduled around. And I would love to think that there's some change coming for that. I know if you work for Channy Nicholas, her company, she offers like menstrual leave. Like you get some days. Yeah.

And, you know, but it's like that is not across the board right now. but it should be because if we played to those cycles, I think that everyone benefits, right? Yeah. But that's a whole other conversation. That's a big conversation right now. It's like what women get to choose with their body. Yeah. But yeah, that would be a long conversation.

Well, obviously, I adored this book. I really loved it. I loved how you pulled it together. at the end, but I won't say anything about it. So I hope everyone who's listening goes and reads it, too. But I have been asking authors at the end if they've read anything recently that they loved. So I don't know if you have any. Yes, of course. I love, it came out this year. It was a debut novel. It's called We Were the Universe by Kimberly King Parsons. It is another look at motherhood. It's a, about grief, it's about desire. I've never seen a book that entertains desire and horniness

in the realm of the day-to-day caretaking of a child. And often I think those things are always separated or when you become a mom, you're like, you're exempt from the being horny or whatever. Yeah. It's like the Madonna or the mother. or the whore. Or the whore, yeah. Yeah, and that book is so funny. It's so funny. And it's about sisterhood.

It's about loss. And how do we process loss when we are in that really daily intimate relationship as your caretaking? Yeah. So good. So voicey. So masterful on every level. So that one.

and then a book that just came out today, actually. Another debut novel called The Volcano Daughters by Gina Maria Malibrera. Okay. It is so, so good. It's very different, but also, you know, it's about women. It's kind of witchy. It's really voicy. It's really inventive.

I think like the first paragraph you're just like blown away. You're like, oh, we're really in for something kind of. different here. So it's a great cover too. So I'm really excited this year about those two. And this is a good year for books. I always say that every year. I'm like, oh, there's so many. I do too. Obviously, I loved all fours by Miranda July, me and everyone else. I read Lires by Sarah Manguso. I thought that was, I read those two books like right next to each other. And it was interesting experiment because they both entertain very similar themes about marriage and, you know, how to sustain a marriage over time.

And they're very different. They're very different. But they're both really amazing. So, no. We're lucky. I have to check those out. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. What about you? Well, we're, oh. You're reading. So. Well, I just finished Maddard. woman as you know so that I can just tell I'm going to talk about that one forever um and also I recently read the lion women of Tehran by Marjan Kamali okay it is very is similarly it's

it's harrowing it's this like depiction of what it was like in Iran from the 1950s to the 1980s where women went from pretty much having the same rights as the rest of the world to it like abruptly stopping in the 80s. So it's it's another one where it spans the friendship of these two women from the time they were like eight until there's kind of like you would almost call it an epilogue at the end. It does get into 2020 but you're mostly following them from like eight to their like 30s or 40s basically. And it's it's really powerful. It's very heavy. So it's like if you're not in the mood for heavy, just don't start it. But when you're in the mood for it, it's really perfect for that.

And then what did I just? Oh, I love spy thrillers. So I just finished the third alias Emma book by Ava Glass. It's called The Trap. I just loved it so much. Amazing. I love spy thrillers. How much do you read a week, would you say?

It's really probably one and a half books a week. And then it really depends because my husband and I are freelancers together. So it also like depends on that. Sometimes it's like it is only one a week. But sometimes it's like I can kind of read one during the week and maybe part of one on the weekend. So yeah, I read a decent amount, but there are still books to grammars out there reading like 200 a year. And I'm like, I don't think I'm ever going to get that. How do they do?

It's amazing. I don't know. I'm impressed. I'm impressed with one week, honestly. Like, I think that's my ideal pace, too, but it sometimes it's not possible, of course. Well, yeah. I don't have kids. Like, I just have to take care of my work and myself. So it makes it easier. I just have dogs that act like them sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, where can people follow you to stay up to date with everything. I'm at Chelsea Beaker, C-H-E-L-S-E-A, B-I-E-K-E-R on Instagram and all the other places. I have a website, www. www. chelseabeaker.com, and I have information about my book tour. I'll be going to lots of stops. So I hope that listeners will come see me in person. I'm so excited. Yeah. Well, I will put all those notes in or all those

links in the show notes. And thank you so much for talking with me today. Thank you so much. This is absolutely wonderful. And it means so much to me to be read so closely and just to connect the way that you connected with the book is so special. So I feel so lucky. Thank you.