Bookwild - Chronic Illness, Spy Thrills & Fake Dating: Kate Williams' Fake Out Make Out

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

This week, I talk with Kate Williams about her new romance spy thriller Fake Out Make Out! Kate's journey from self-publishing and writing across genres to landing a traditional publishing deal with Fake Out, Make Out.  How Kate built a spy romance, balanced action with emotional beats, and embraced genre mashups. How she drew from her own autoimmune journey and the importance of seeing disabled and chronically ill characters on the page. How she approaches outlining action scenes, creating compelling character dynamics, and finding the perfect title for the book. Lessons from years of writing, and encouragement for aspiring authors navigating publishing. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with my friend Kate Williams about her new book, Fakeout Makeout, which is a really action-packed romance that I think a lot of you are just going to really love. Here is a short description of it. After a chronic illness ends her elite running career, Charlie Ross joins a sport logistics organization only to discover it's a front for covert espionage and is reluctantly recruited by the guarded spy leading its secret operations. As they race across Europe to stop stolen weapons from threatening a major international sporting event, danger, betrayal, and undeniable attraction, force the mismatched partners to confront

both the mission and their growing feelings. If you love some banter, if you love kind of a faking a relationship vibe, and if you love action, I think you will really, really, really enjoy this book. That being said, let's hear from Kate. I am so excited because I'm here with Kate Williams, or M.K. Williams, depending on if you've read any of her other books. But we have been like Bookstagram friends for a while. We have a lot of things in common. But we're also going to talk about her new book, Fake Out Makeout. So I'm so excited you're here. I am so excited to be here. Yeah. We can talk about books. We can talk about pollen. We can talk about all the other things. We have all the fun bookish. Like I always joke. I sometimes feel like a sick.

Victorian child that you like read about in books that it's always bookish. I'm like yeah, that's me. That's pretty much me. Um, so yeah, we, we have, we have, we have all kinds of stuff in common. But, um, I do always want to know first what was, you've written lots of books. You've written under the name, M.K. Williams as well. You've self-published. You've done so much stuff. What was your journey to writing and like, did you always know you wanted to or how did that all go for you? Yes. I've always loved. books. I was an only child. So like books are my friends, right? Like I could just escape into that world and they were my besties and very imaginative. My mom was always reading as well. And she let me

read like Stephen King books when I was a kid. He has a few that aren't as scary. So she was always, you know, like, here, read this, read this. And trusting me to like know if it was too scary to just close it and put it away. Right. So I always wanted to be a writer. I kind of talked myself out of it for a bit. I'm good at math. So in high school, it was like, do math things. Right. Young woman, do math things. Also, the Philadelphia parochial school system for all of its benefits was like, she's smart, but she doesn't know where to put a comma, but no, just pass her alone. It's fine. And so I got to the point where I was like, well, I don't have like a good. grammar background foundation therefore I cannot be a writer my dream will never happen and then I just

decided I was going to write a book and does the comma go here or there better put at both places right that's what editors are for exactly that's what editors are for and I also like swallowed my pride at one point and took like a corsair course that was for people learning English as a second language yeah um about grammar and I was like okay so like if that's what I'm telling myself is why I can't write a book. Let me take this course. And now I'm going to write books. So yes, I've always had stories in my head. I've always been creative. I tell my husband, you know, even if nobody read these books, I would still write them. And he was like, well, when I first got started, he was like, well, honey. Which honestly, we can joke about that now because when I self-published my first book,

I was like, I'm going to do a surprise drop. Like I thought I was Beyonce or Taylor Swift or something. I was like, it's going to go viral. I was genuinely. worried about having to tell my boss if I had to like call out of work to like be on the today show. Like this was the delusional first author, hope and excitement. I mean, it's probably the confidence that made you do it though. Yes. You need the confidence. Yes. And you need to be imaginative to write books. But it was also like, oh, like I have to build an audience. I have to do the things. Nobody knows about it just because I clicked publish on Amazon. So it's been a long journey. Yeah.

But I've stayed delusionally optimistic with each book and like giving it the best effort, building audience, connecting with people. So like it took a long time. Yeah. Yeah. I was, yeah, I just, I loved reading. I wish I could have been reading some Stephen King a little bit earlier because I think it would have worked for me, but that's okay. And you also have like a very popular YouTube channel as well where you guys talk about all kinds of

different like writing related things. So where like what made you want to do that as well? So I self-published nail biters in 2015 put out a short story collection the next year, got another domestic thriller out. And so I started to get questions from people that I knew who were interested in writing or they would say, oh my cousins, best friend's sister wants to write a book. Can she send you some questions? And when I started self-publishing, I was a bad millennial. If there were forums and Facebook groups, I did not find them. Yeah. But I did go to like a local library event.

And there was a local author speaking. And I was like, this is it. We're going to become besties. She writes in different genre. That's cool. Like I'm just going to go. I want to be a writer too. And boom, we're going to be best friends.

Right. That's what not happen. I walked up and I was like, hey, like I want to be a writer. And she just looked me in the eye. And I was like, you're what, 23? What could you possibly have to say? Oh my gosh. To my face.

To my face. She said this. So I was just like, I was like, you know, shut down for a little bit. I was like, oh, like I expected the publishing industry writ large to be like, no. But like other authors, I was not expecting it. So when people were asking after I had self-published, I was like, I need to be there for them. I needed to be supportive. And I was like, okay, but I'm getting the same questions.

Can I just like copy paste? But then let me personalize it. And then that was taking all my writing time. And I was like, well, I know what will save me time. I'll start a YouTube channel. That'll save so much time, right? Yes. So I love the creativity there that I can have visually.

I'm not great with audio and video. And I'm on a but I like answering questions for people. I like connecting with people. I feel like I'm paying it forward in a way. So it's just kept going. Yeah. So that's been a fun outlet for me outside of when I just can't think of dialogue or I can't think of the next plot point. I'm like, what can I get to the YouTube channel? So it's been fun.

It's been going for eight years. Yeah. Eight years. Yeah. That's so cool. I feel like the, I feel like you, we weren't hearing as much about self-publishing to your point until like the last like five years maybe it's become a little bit more like I'm hearing more of that conversation. So that's kind of cool that you saw the gap and you were like, oh, I could I could kind of fill parts of this gap. It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes that like this is probably something people laugh at because they hear me say it so many times. But there's a quote that says be who you needed when you were younger. And I kind of tend to take it in the context of like your childhood. But it's also like the version of yourself like five years before or the version of

yourself before you published a book. So I feel like it's cool kind of like getting to do that for other people too. Absolutely. Yeah. It's been nice to pay it forward. And And I've lived through the days of like you self-publish, get off my lawn, like, from bookstores and like other properties and things like that. And now they're just like, yeah. Yeah. The thing is, like, obviously there are pros and cons to both approaches. And it's just like with the pace of how quickly things come out now, I just, at one of my friends, Sagit Schwartz, I co-narrated and produced her audiobook. with her last year. And she was kind of saying, like, to her, her publisher, who published her first

book, um, since she's been gone, didn't pick up her second one when she had finished it. And she was like, with how quickly everything moves, like, I still want to get this out there because, like, there are readers who are like, especially in the thriller genre. It's not as much in others. I think like thriller and sometimes romance, there's a little bit more expected of like you put one out every single year. And so she was like, I want to get it out there. And so she was like, I want to get it out there. So it's like, yeah, why not, why not self-publish in that case so that you can actually get it out there? I know you've also, you've written different genres. And then this one is even kind of like, kind of like a romantic action thriller as well. What do you enjoy about like

the different genres that you've written? You know, I always set out to write the book that was in my mind and the story that was in my mind. There's a best practice, which is obviously like you pay your lane, you only do that, you really specialize and you kind of niche down on it. And I admire the authors that can do that. Yeah. I think my brain is able to like shiny object or that was fun or that was really dark. I want to write something lighter or that was too light and fluffy.

I need something dark. Yeah. And so I've written a cross genre because of that. So I like I like writing something twisted. dark and then switching and being like, and now they're in the, like, just two different. I like having both sides of my brain present. Yeah. That makes sense.

And it's like, I think obviously there are like pin names and different things that people like recommend, which may be why you went with Kate Williams for this one as well. But like the more I think about it, it's like a lot of us as readers read different genres. So it would make sense that some authors would be. getting ideas for different genres and then it was reminding me uh john fram was like the first one who said it to me this way but he was saying he writes what you're saying he writes the idea that comes to him and then it's like an editor or a friend or a publisher that tells him what genre he wrote so what like with this one what was the like initial idea that came to you so i had the idea for fake out

make out almost like seven or eight years ago. I was working full time for a very large triathlon company that may or may not be on my water cup. Go to YouTube guys. I don't know if I'm allowed to say their name. That's okay. Anybody looks at my photos. I'm wearing their shirts all the time. I'm wearing the brain all the time. I had a good time there. But we, you know, we're an international company, you know, triathons and marathons and like every major world city. And I was just at my desk one day. And I was like, you know, a lot of people who work here are like super fit, you know, just opting to work there. A lot of people speak multiple languages because we have offices all over the world. And we have to because we go in, we shut down these major cities. We shut down the roads.

We shut down the waterways to do these events. And I was like, wait one second. Are we Mission impossible? Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes. And so that was the idea. And as I'm having to, having this idea. You know, I have a science fiction book out. I have a domestic thriller that's about to come out. And I was like, spy novels are a whole other genre that I don't even feel confident writing right now. There's always a romantic element. I don't write romance right now. I was like, that's going to have to sit. Yeah. And then after I wrote a super dark book, like if we're using a chocolate scale for my books, like I would say fake out makeup. I was like like a 65% cocoa, right?

Right. You get some of like the darkness and things like that, but it's, you know, it still tastes pretty sweet. This, this puppy is like 100% cocoa. Oh. This dark. Yeah. I'm gonna, yeah.

So that I got out of my brain and I was like, you know, I had something fun. And I was working with my agent on getting half her published and she was kind of like, hey, like, pitch me your ideas for your next book to kind of like, kind of like keep you sane while we're waiting to hear back on Heffer. And I was like, okay, I was like, well, here's some more, you know, darker ones. And I was like, also off the wall, here's this crazy idea I had when I was working for this triathlon company. And they were like, that one, that one, that one's all the time. It is such a fun concept. Because like, even as you were explaining what your company did, I was like, oh, yeah, like, we know that in the past,

like it even kind of makes me think of like Josephine Baker and, like, like, like how she was like basically used acting and in her fame to also like help with clandestine causes that she was really passionate about so it's like it makes sense we know this happens absolutely yeah or like thinking about like even world games that are going on now or in the summer's past you're just like everybody's all in one's face everybody's super fit like yes that is going on point so when you get that idea do you sit down and outline or do you start like writing what has come to you? So my process used to be I would just open a word doc and throw down the concept, some bits of

dialogue, some ideas for scenes. And once it would hit a critical mass, I would start to organize it. Okay. Fake out, make out. I did a true outline because I was like, okay, this is a spy novel. It's also a romance novel. And romance readers have very clear expectations for like. points we have to hit of like there's the meat queue and there's like their first interactions and like

things have to build and then for the spy side of it I was like okay I need to make sure we aren't going too long with just romance without having like the spy elements and like what are going to be some of the the gotcha moments what are going to be some of the trying to throw you off course a little bit moments so I outlined and color coded it so I had like this bright pink was my romance beats and bright green was my spy beats and like making sure they were all in there. So this was the first book I truly outlined and I wrote it much much faster. I think having written so many books helps but I think the outline also helped me just to like less drifting. Yeah. And that's fascinating. So did you did some of the, do some of the plot beats line up then when you did that kind

of outlining, I'm assuming? Yeah. So there were certain elements with like some of the spy situations they were in where I was like, oh, well, I can like just kind of up some romantic tension there to kind of keep the spy going without too long without like any like interpersonal connection between the two characters. So yeah, that, yeah, and every once in a while I'd be like, oh, that just worked out. That's so cool. Yeah, I feel like we see, and I could be wrong, it could just be, I've gravitated more toward them, but I feel like we see a little bit more genre mashup lately or at least a little more tolerance for it at least. Well, I guess you did know.

I was going to say, so you knew you wanted to do both of those. Was there like any part of you that was like nervous about writing it as a genre mashup? A little, right? Because you could get somebody who's like, okay, there's like five things going on in this book. What is this book? Right. You know, like you don't want it to be too much. Or it's like, it's this.

And it says in clowns. Like, yeah. What's going on? But I, I, I dated to the books that, that defy the expectations, right? I think some of the earlier reviews I was getting was, hey, this is great. This is a romance novel. But there's like things happening beyond just the romance, right? And somebody's like, but there's like a plot.

And it's like, well, romance novels have plots, right? But like, get what they're saying. Like there's something else moving the action forward. Or like, oh, like this is great. So many. spy movies you think of, right? Like James Bond always gets the girl. Like Mission Impossible.

There's always something romantic going on, but it's like playing that up more. So it was fun to play with the genre expectations for both. Yeah. And I've been loving some mashups. I just read How to Kill a Guy in 10 Dates. Yes, I've seen that one around. It's so good. It's so good.

I read it and I loved it. And then I handed it to my husband. He's like, how did you read this? this is so gory. I was like, well, I skimmed some of the gory sections because I didn't want to have nightmares, but like it was great. It was great. I loved it. I didn't realize it was kind of great, too. Yeah. I'm loving the mashups or the more like mystery romances, like, thriller romances. Like, I'm definitely enjoying that more. So I think it's fun to see people wanting a bit of both in each read. Yeah. That's why I've been talking about a little bit more lately because there have been

some books that lean more into romance that I've enjoyed. And then like everything, I'm learning that it is kind of about the subgenre within the genre, like finding those parts that you like. And so I've talked about that a little bit like actually into the blue by Emma Brody was what kind of taught me this about myself. And it even says like a love story on the front, but it's like also very much about like improv and stand up and S&L. and like all these other things that I'm like innately interested in. And so obviously if you just love a traditional romance sometimes, like that's wonderful. But I'm kind of falling into the same thing that you're talking about where like I do like when there's that and something else that my brain can like follow along with.

The other element too is I feel like you really, especially when we're talking about like James Bond or or like the born supremacy. it's more like they they when they getting the girl is more than hooking up with the girl and so there's not necessarily a ton of emotional development there um and this one has a lot of different emotional things at stake and one of them is like uh the main character is dealing with uh kind of having to give up on her own love for running because of health related things so what made you want to incorporate that as well? So I have two autoimmune conditions in terms of like survivor. I am the immunity idol.

You are. So like my, so like I've been living with chronic illness for a long time. And so I had the concept for the characters. Like I had the concept for the story, but I was like, okay, but like what's the, what's the entry point to this world? What's the story? And my idea was that like, she tries to. everybody except herself. He trusts nobody, especially her. So I knew that was going to be the

dynamic. And I was like, okay, so how do we, how did they get there? How did they get to that point? And I was like, well, he's the spy. So like, that's obviously why he has trust issues and I can build that. And I was like, okay, she trusts everybody except herself. And I was like, oh, like, she trusts everybody except her own body. And I was like, how do we get there? And I was like, I think it's time. I think it's time to pull this out of the trauma toolkit. And dig into my own past and kind of give that to her because in my other books, I haven't really had characters who have chronic illnesses, who have really strict diet and lifestyle limitations, like, trying to bend into the shape that, like, their body is demanding. And so I was like, I think

it's time to do that. Like, I felt, I felt ready to explore that in the book. And to really give that to a character. Usually, when I'm writing, it's a fun escape for me to be like, this person's healthy. I'm they can obviously do anything they need to and just not worry about whatever food they're ordering or medicines. So this was interesting to like really bring this to a character and be like, yeah, this is her more lived experience. And I would say when I post about this book and I like, I'm highlighting, oh, it's spire romance.

It's sports romance. There's fun destinations. They're spying on a billionaire's yacht, which is the only acceptable time beyond a billionaires yacht. Like all those things. when I mention that there's autoimmune representation or chronic illness representation, like those posts get way more engagement. And I think it's because more people have chronic illness, more people are living with this and they want to see themselves represented.

They want to see like some of that more, dare I say, neurotic lifestyle. I'm just like, okay, I have to do this and this and this, but I've been doing this and this. And is that going to trigger a flare or, okay, we're going to see what happens. Like, it was nice to bring that to a character and her lived experience. I've read several books and I've actually sought out books that have chronic illness representation. And I love it when the character is like, I've been doing this for a decade. I know what I'm doing.

I know my medicines. Like, yep, I'm good. And I wanted to show somebody who's still in this like early stage of like, I think I have this under control. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. So I enjoyed bringing that to the character. and I've been getting good feedback from that so far.

Yeah. And I think there's also in those cases, especially because she's at the beginning with it, you have to start to kind of like grieve the life that you don't get to have and that you thought that you were going to maybe get to have. So what was it like exploring like that emotional part of it? Absolutely. Or just like you see her being like, well, I was told, you know, that this physical activity is what triggers.

your flares just don't do it. And then you're kind of like, well, what I'm feeling okay? Like how much can I push against that, you know, medical advice without completely going AMA, without like trusting my own body? And it really is like a delicate dance that so many people with chronic illness do. Of just like, okay, well, the doctor said to do this. I feel like a gut instinct, maybe I could try this. So.

And it's wanting to have what you had before. and like very stubbornly pushing against it. And it takes a long time for your body and your brain to meet up and be like, look, it's just not going to happen. Yeah. So like, so those early stages when you're like, well, but maybe who knows? Like the doctor could be wrong. Right.

No, they were right. Okay, I shouldn't do that. Yeah. So I thought that was interesting to bring. And also kind of exploring that like there are some people with chronic illness who are very good at like following the letter of what their doctor does. and there's a lot of people with chronic illness who are like, my doctor is gaslighting me and, like, not listening. And, like, I don't know what to do because I don't necessarily trust their advice now.

So now I have to find another doctor and another specialist. So, yeah, I wanted to show somebody who is, like, feeling a little bit of that, like, okay, I'm following their advice. But, like, where can I start to push a little bit? Where can I start to claw back who I was? Right. and who I've become now that I've had this medical experience. Like I don't think anybody gets through the medical system unscathed. That's what I was about to say.

It's so you want to have a healthy level of skepticism about health care in America specifically. Because it is like sometimes it's just like sometimes they're like told like you get 15 minutes per patient. And like what how are they really going to know who you are and like what specific? happening to your body in that case and I've run into that. None of what I have is actually autoimmune but I do have like there's renamed PMOS for but anyone who has PCOS like I am really glad they renamed it because cysts aren't like the only thing that are the markers of it but that took me forever to get a diagnosis and I didn't I also am hypermobile and it was going to like a a massage therapist who had multiple different accredations and sports medicine specifically.

The first time she saw me, she was like, so do you know you're hyper mobile? And I was like, what do you mean? So she was the one who ended up pointing it out to me. But then it was great because now I can find my accommodations for it. And kind of to what you're talking about, I as well love to push right up against as far as I can go. And so it was kind of crazy, the timing of this. I had a knee injury that happened now seven weeks ago. And I work out a lot. And so similar to listening to the story right now was very interesting because working out is what it is for my physical body. Because there's all kinds of reasons that working out is for your physical body. But mentally it makes me a less angry person, a less irritable person and a more confident person. And so I just have to be. haven't been able to. And I tried a couple weeks ago and I put myself into like a full body flare, even though I only did upper body. And you're just like, you're like, but I want to do this. And like,

I think especially, um, is this, the story is sports adjacent, but like especially socially, we talk about like pushing your body to, to its limit or like, well, have you been working out? Have you been walking? Have you done strength? You, you hear it. everywhere. So then even when you're injured or and my injury definitely lasted long because I'm hyper mobile, then when you are injured, sometimes you're still seeing all of this messaging that makes you think like, oh, but I need to get back to it. And it's not just like, it wasn't just my mental health. It's like, I'm just like, oh, I need to get back to it. And like, I need to try and I need to push myself. It's not always the case. So it is just so hard to balance. It is. And there's

so much individuality to like what works per person and like it like you said is that doctor able to give you the time and attention yeah do they have that expertise or is it somebody else better it's yeah it's I had somebody kind of leave a critique of the book they were like this sounds like it's maha and I was like first of all you clay to follow me on social media um no but no I was like But what I learned, and I'm grateful I learned this early, having this experience I will take from the silver lining, was I learned to advocate for myself as a patient and say, hey, I hear what you're saying. I think you're missing this point that I said. Or can you explain to me why you think it's this and not this? And I also learned that it's called a medical practice and that doctors are practicing.

And that we are kind of raised in a society to be like, doctors are very smart. They go to school forever. they are all knowing. You're right. And yes, I will say doctors are very intelligent. They know a lot. But I think they're also trained to see like this is the common thing you're going to see. Yep.

You may be these outlier cases once or twice, but it's really like the majority of what you're going to see is going to be X, Y, Z, go forth and prescribe. And so when you're in a situation of being, hey, I have a rare condition, it's like, it's rare. Like I don't have, like I didn't have a medicine that was tailored to it. And so they're like, you're just going to keep these two medicines until it leeches your bones or it destroys your liver. And I was like, okay, we hit that. And they were like, well, you've been fine for a while.

So let's go without medicine. I'm like, oh, okay. Wow. Yeah. You know, it's. Yeah. And then there's a lot of bias against women, even when it's a female doctor, because we have not researched women's bodies the way that we have. Well, and also minorities.

That's the other thing that we haven't done. We've researched a lot of white male bodies. And like that's not always going to translate. And we kind of don't take women's pain as seriously. Even though like if you think about it logically for a moment, you would think the gender that can give birth is probably the one that can handle pain pretty well. And like it probably does hurt if they're saying it hurts. But then there's like that whole level of it too. Like it's a lot of women's stuff is downplayed.

It's just frustrating. Yeah. I will say I felt very lucky when I first had symptoms of this eosinophilic fasciitis. They were pretty severe symptoms. And because at first they were like, you're a healthy 16 year old girl. Like this was a one time thing that's ever going to happen again. A week later. Nope.

I'm back in an ambulance. Can't feel my extremities. Can't even like talk. Like it was totally just slack. And they were like, this seems serious. And so just like the full battery of tests of like we're rolling out the big scary stuff. And so in some ways I was grateful that I was taken seriously because a lot of people that doesn't happen to. And I was also, you know, I was junior year, this like prep school.

So I was like, I need to be studying. I need to be getting perfect days. Like, like super type A Roy Gilmore. You're right here. No wonder my body was plaring. And so they were like, oh, like she is legit. Like she wants to get healthy. Like she doesn't want to be here.

Yeah. Let's figure this out. And so I was very lucky that they ended up just doing a biopsy on my muscles. They're like, we don't know what's going on with you. Let's do a biopsy. And that's how they diagnosed it. Otherwise, I could have spent years chasing a diagnosis because that's often the case with autoimmunity.

So I do feel very lucky that I was taken seriously, that I had a parent who's there to advocate for me and be like, no, like, this is not normal. Like, she's the kid who's like still begging to go to school when she has, like, laryitis. like, no, like we got to fix this. So very grateful for that. And I know that's not everybody's experience. Right.

Yeah. And then with my second autoimmune, they were just like, oh, yeah, it's this. And I was like, what? Oh, wow. When you have a common one, it's really easy to diagnose much. Oh, man. Well, yeah, I'm glad it was that way for you. That is, that was really, because it can just take forever.

Was it, did it feel kind of cathartic than getting to write this story? Like, did it kind of feel almost like a love letter? to your younger self too. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I kind of gave Charlie more confidence than I had at the time. You know, I was always so, you know, telling people that they're going to be like, what? Yeah. Like, I remember telling somebody in college once that I had an autoimmune condition, right?

There's a lot of them versus the super rare one. They were like, you have AIDS? And I was like, no. Oh, gosh. I was like, I have the opposite. Yeah. genetic. My immune system is too strong.

Yeah. But no, please don't tell people I have AIDS. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, there's not a great amount of awareness. No. With that. Yeah. So it was nice to give her the confidence.

Yes. I love that. Get that in there. Well, we also have, like, she doesn't want to like him. And we have some fake dating happening, too, which is always so fun. So was that, was that like a, I say trope positively. Was that a trope that you were like really wanting to write? Or did you like as you were writing the characters where you like, oh, they would be kind of resistant to this at first?

So I figured with them being spies, there was going to have to be some. We have to kiss for our cover at some point. I actually clocked it in the first Mission Impossible movie. There are two instances of this in the first like 10 minutes. of like spies kissing each other to like as their cover. So I was like, yeah. And so I gravitate towards this enemies to lovers, adversaries to lovers.

Yes. Your face is so handsome. It's annoying type situations. I don't know why. I just really like reading them. So I was like, okay, I think that's going to work for them. How are we going to get these two together?

And I think in the other books, I've like thought about writing in the romance ban. They all start out with like, I hate your guts. Yes. But now we're going to fall in love. Maybe it's because you and I, you know, as a whole, are suspicious of men. Maybe that's what it is. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And like what's interesting is my own like personal love story with my husband, it was like insta love. It was like, that's all. Like we've never had an adversarial phase like nothing. Like yes. I just enjoy enemies to lovers. I like a sassy, snarky lady being like, look, I don't like you.

and him being like, I like that about you. Yeah, I do too. I do too. So that was fun to write and kind of like chess pieces. Like how am I going to inch these two together? Because the way they meet is like, it's a meet cringe. Yes. I love that.

Being like, okay, how far can I push this and still make it realistic that they end up together? Yeah. Yeah. What about the action, like writing the action scenes? I know some people will like, like one of my. favorite stories from Yasminongo is she was like my fourth interview for the Nina Knight series and she talks about how her kids make fun of her because they will walk by her in the office and she's like blocking out scenes and then like goes back to her computer and types it out.

So how do you like visualize them? How do you how do you write them? Like what's your process? I think so I know you're not done yet. so I don't know what action scene you may or may not have seen yet. There's one that I think has much more blocking. And I think mentally I would just like sit there and close my eyes and be like, somebody has two hands and two feet and two arms and two legs.

So I need to make sure they're all accounted for. Yeah. I think that was the biggest thing of being like, okay, this person has both arms restrained. So okay, they have their feet are they can use, but like that's going to knock them off balance and try to remember like, okay, like if this person has a weapon, they only have on free hand and like making sure there weren't just three hands. Yes. Showing up at some point on one person.

Yeah. There's like meticulously going through trying to mentally map that. I think that was the hardest part for me. Okay. And in some other action scenes as well. Right. To keep track how many hands everybody has. Oh my gosh.

I didn't even think of that. That it would apply in both senses of that word. Yes. Are there anything that surprised you about writing this one that you kind of like weren't expecting? I think I wasn't expecting. So I put a lot of, you know, my personal experience with chronic illness into Charlie. I think I wasn't expecting how much of my own like corporate America trauma I put into Declan. And as I read through it, it was just kind of like, you know, you have a mentor that you trust.

And then suddenly it's like, eh, like. like yeah here's a company line bye um and like i feel like as millennials were often criticized for being so dedicated to work i don't know how we were all culturally raised to be like you give a 110 percent at work and then you get rewarded obviously right right didn't work out yeah it didn't work out um so yeah giving that to declan i wasn't surprised i wasn't i was surprised i was not expecting when i reread back through the drafts to be like oh yeah like yeah like yeah on a lot of other trauma too, didn't I? So that was very cathartic, but also like it's still done in a fun way.

Like I think, as I've read through it, I'm like, this reminds me of just like a fun, not slapstick, but just like you sit down to Mission Impossible, you know what you're going to get. Right. You're going to get some funny one-liners. You're going to get some action. There's going to be the hot girl. There's going to, they're going to get the bad guy. Boom.

Yes. That's kind of what I wanted to put into. this and I think I hit that one. Yeah. Well, with like some funny moments, some action moments. I'm, I'm happy with how it came together and I feel like in kind of the woo-woo creative way. I'm like, oh, like the universe wanted me to write this and it helped everything come together. Yes. It was what you just said reminded me. It kind of, the story kind of reminded me of a random Reese Witherspoon movie from 2012 called This Means War. And it's so, it's so fun. Like,

I haven't watched it or I haven't seen it forever. But as I was like starting your book, I was like, oh yeah, this is reminded me that one. It had like, it had actually has a love triangle element as well. But there's, there's this action. There is the romance. It's also funny. Like you're getting a little bit of everything and a lot of the scenes. And it is a fun one. So if anyone who means a movie to add to their watch list, there's that one. Yeah, that was really fun. What was the, I just had another thought when you were saying that part.

Oh, the World Games. Did you do any, so it sounds like you were obviously kind of worked with a company that was adjacent to like large athletic events. Did you have to do any like additional research for like the locations they were going to? and the event. It's the event themselves. Yes and no. So what's interesting is that company I worked for,

like I promote all these like endurance triathlons, like all across the country, all across the world. Like I have a catalog of features of these courses in my head that I will never use. And like since I've left, some of those courses they don't do anymore. They have new ones. And so I wanted to kind of bring the sense of like awe and fun. fun, like, because I've done half marathons, and I'm just like, sometimes you just want to run and

you just slow down, you're like, this is a really pretty trail. Yeah. I don't care about my trail, but like, this is just pretty. And so I wanted to kind of have some good geographic diversity. Mm-hmm. That we're going all over. And hopefully, if we get the all clear for books two and three, we will be going even more places. Yay.

Yes, hoping. I was told if the sales are good, and I'm like, define good. I know. Good at jumping at carrots. But yeah, so I wanted there to be some excitement for some of these destinations. So we have like Glacier National Park or we have, you know, the evening in like Mexico City. And we have Copenhagen and like all the fun different places. I've not been to any of the destinations in here.

Yeah. Well, I live in Tampa. So that's the main hub here. And then I've been to Key West. But like we only see them on their way to Key West. Okay. So it was fun to research and just tell myself, I'm like, I'm just going to take a trip here and it'll be a business expense. But I haven't actually taken any of those trips.

So it was fun to kind of research a bit and kind of think like, okay, what's the mood? What's the vibe here? Yeah. How do things work? And also knowing some of the other races I've done with other operators, like there's one that was advertised like the Yosemite half marathon. It actually takes place outside of Yosemite National Park. you can't just like do a race in a national park. Yeah.

But this was fun that it was like outside. So I was like, okay, I'll have to keep that in mind if I'm writing Glacier National Park, but like outside. Yes. So that I already knew going in like with that experience. That's impressive. So you and you said you've run half marathons as well. Was there a point where you had to stop running them in relation to your health or is it that personal?

So, yeah, so in high school was when I was diagnosed and I was on the cross-country team. And so that was running like 5Ks for the races, 6Ks every day or 10Ks every day, 6 miles every day for training. And so I was told to stop. And so I got to the point in my like early 20s where I just felt weak. I was like, this can't be right that like I can never push myself physically. I'm like, what am I going to do when I'm an 80-year-old woman with like brittle bones? And like I have to be able to try something. So I started to push a little bit on myself, just doing like lifting 10 pound weights at full,

like really small stuff. Right. Not running. So I started working for this triathlon company. I was really excited. And I went and I was like, yeah, I'm a runner. Like I was a runner in high school. I'm a runner.

And at that point, I had done like just jogging around our neighborhood, which was like a one mile loop. And I was like, I can do this jog. I can do this run. I'm not pushing it. And look, I'm fine. Everything's fine. And I was like very vigilant to look out for any symptoms. And then I started this company and they're like, oh, we need somebody to do the relay in Haines City.

Can you do it? You're a runner, right? And I was like, yeah. But the run distance is like a marathon. They're like, no, no, this one's a half. And I was like, oh. And that's in how many we feel like six weeks? And I was like, yeah, I can totally do that.

Please don't fire me. So I kind of was voluntold to do it. And I was like, I'm going to train. If something happens, if something comes up and I get an injury, then on the other I'm going to tell them I can't do it. Like, that's realistic. Like, they can't. And they couldn't fire me for not doing it.

But I was like, it's like my first week here. I don't want to not be a player. So I did it. And I liked it. And I was fine. And I was very nervous. And I was like, I think maybe like, okay, like my body healed. I had this time.

So then I started doing more half marathons. Nice. Yeah. And then with my second autoimmune condition that I was diagnosed. knows with a couple years ago. I did take a hiatus from running as well. I didn't think it was triggering that one, but I was like, all the stress in my body maybe needs to calm down. But I did a half marathon this past February. Nice. It was fine. I was good. I think it took me longer to train than it would have in the past because I was much more like vigilant of like all the potential symptoms

from both conditions. But I was really happy that I could. Well, that's good. It is always, it's so difficult trying to make that decision where like even what I was just talking about where like I wanted to get back to working out as soon as I can when you push yourself too far then you're in like mass pain everywhere again and it is nice when you can just like find your way back to it still in whatever way you end up finding your way back to it. you also brought up which i thought was a cool dynamic how she trusts everyone except herself and he doesn't trust any why did i just mess that up she trust everybody but herself yes nobody especially her there we go there we go that part um so that dynamic then kind of means that they're kind of

they kind of challenge each other on who each other is kind of because of that. So was that fun to write? Like, what was it right? Like, writing that. We can wait, too. They were quiet when you were talking. Oh, of course. It's okay.

It's not even super loud. So, okay, that's good. He's like, I'm still here. It's okay. So it was fun because I knew we had to get her to a point where she would try trusting her own body. And she would take that leap of faith to trust herself, not just for her physical limitations, but also like, can I do this job? This is a whole new company. This is whole new people.

And now, oh, y'all are spies? Like, okay, and you think I can handle that? And like learning to trust herself and her abilities. So that was part of it. And I think with Declan, you know, in some of their discussions. he's like I had I had to trust somebody like I couldn't just let everywhere I stood just be sand and not trust anybody so he's choose to trust somebody and like take that leap and like I'm a romance point of view like sometimes you just have to take that leap yeah um so it worked

from like a co-worker on a mission together thing as well as yeah yeah that makes sense oh okay so the title I do love the title and the way that it like fits all of it so well I know you don't always get to pick your titles, though. So was that a process? Was it something you knew from the beginning? Like, how did that go? So I usually when I write a book, I kind of get the title in my mind pretty early. Yeah.

And so for this one, I did not. Like I was calling it sports and spies. Oh, yeah. The first, like, pitch title I sent to my agent, like, snakes on a plane. Yes. Sports and spies. Yes. Here you go.

Or sporty spies. And then I was like, okay. like we'll call it espionage is an endurance sport and she's like that's clever it doesn't really roll off the tongue um and so she was kind of just workshopping it and sending stuff back and forth and so within romance there's lots of tropes right like there's like a meet cute there's enemies to lovers there's all these things and within spy stories there are two tropes and so a fake out makeout is the name of that trope right when two spies have to kiss for their cover or there's like a trouble entendre that

a double entendre it's a trouble entendre like they're saying oh this croissant is warm but really it means like the bomb codes are in the briefcase like like they're saying something innocuous but it has like a double meaning for like spy talk so there's all these different spy tropes and so it's actually the name of a spy trope is a fake out make out so i did not pick it um and it took me a while to warm up to it but then i realized the acronym was phomo and i was like i love it oh you're right i didn't even realize that and oh Of all the tropes, like of all of the movies and books I've read, watched and read, I didn't even know that's what that was called. So now, now I know, now I learned something new. Well, I am really enjoying this one, quite a bit. It's very fun. As we said, like, it's very fun genre mash up and that's something I'm enjoying a lot lately. So whether you want to listen to it or read it, you guys need to go go do either one of those so that we can get. a second and third one, hopefully as well. But I do also like to ask at the end if there's anything

you've read recently that you really loved or if there are books that you just like always recommend to people. Okay. I mean, how much longer do you have? Right. I will always recommend for somebody in a reading slump, this is how you lose the time more. I loved it. That has been on my list for too long. Okay. It is so good. It is beautiful prose for the sake of beautiful. prose. Like, I read it and it was like, oh, okay, like, if somebody had said, this is a sapphic retelling of Romeo and Juliet, I'd be like, okay, I probably wouldn't have picked out. I would have been like, well, I know Romeo and Juliet, but I didn't know what it was about. And it's the time war, and I was like, well, that's kind of cool. And so it's just very beautiful

pros. Like, just enjoy it for the beautiful language. And I think having that underpinning of the familiarity of, like, the Romeo and Juliet set up, just made it easy just to, like, love the, love the words, love the language. Yeah. If like you're in a reading, slump, read it. One book I'm super excited to recommend to you if you're into maybe dabbling into some romance. Yeah. It's called the Jezebel List by Alyssa Dean.

So it's a spicy romance, but she is a former P.K. Oh. And pastor's grandkid too. And so she has all this like C PTSD. she's at this university it seems like it's like a Bob Jones stand in but she is deciding that she is like I'm done with this like I'm here to finish my degree I have one semester left but like I am going to go out and have a bottle of wine at a nice restaurant and I'm going to do other things and obviously romance ensues but it was so fun to read and yeah it was yeah it was hot too

it is good it is hitting me it bitches this play about us I was like, oh, like, I think you need to read this. Like, I know, like, romance might not always be like your top genre, but I'm like, you need to read this because, like, this girl is like, I am done with this. Like, I am done being told what I can and can't do when all of these other things are going on in the background that like, yeah. I love that. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Well, I will be adding that one. Even, I mean, speaking of chronic illness, I can see BTSD technically is one of the ones that I have. And you don't hear it. I think we're hearing about it more. We started hearing about it more in like psychological therapy areas a little while ago. But I feel like I'm only now starting to see people write fiction with it. So that's exciting to me that there's kind of some more of that coming out. Okay.

Fiction for everybody. Yes. And this says it comes out August 25th this year, just for anyone who's wondering, oh my gosh, Hilltop and University, I am. dead. This is amazing. So I will be requesting this on NetGalley. And if anyone else has Nat Galley, I'm having you read it. I'm going to say, go get it. So thank you for that recommendation. Where can people follow you to stay up to date with everything? So I'm on social media as one, like the number one, M.K. Williams, even though there's like three pen names. I'm on YouTube. Again, M.K. Williams, Mary Kate Williams, you're going to find me there. And my newsletter is the

best for getting direct from me. Sometimes the algorithm just like doesn't show things. And because I used to do email marketing, I only send one email a month. That is my promise. I said one. That's not bad. That's everything you need. Yeah. Perfect. Well, I'll put those links in the show notes for everyone. And everyone, just go read it. And you can DM me when you're done. You can DM, you can DM, one MK Williams, if you want. But go read it.