Bookwild - Continuing Ed: The Mis-Education of Indigenous Children in America with MacKenzie Green

Episode Date: October 13, 2025

Bonus Episode!!  In this first episode of my new Continuing Ed series, MacKenzie Green joins me to talk about a non-fiction book she convinced me to read: Original Sins: The (Mis)education of Black and Native Children and the Construction of American RacismThe book covers the way America chose to "educate" both Native and Black children, but for Indigenous People's Day, we chose to focus on how Indigenous children were treated and taught as our country built its education system.We cover how Thomas Jefferson's Doctrine of Destiny laid the groundwork for the belief in Manifest Destiny, and how Manifest Destiny lead to white people believing that Black and Indigenous populations were inferior and savage, groups of people to be "civilized" by an army of good white Lady Bountiful teachers.Make sure you go support MacKenzie's Substack here !And follow her on Instagram here ! Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I have been talking about doing a series on a couple different episodes. If you guys are podcast listeners, you may have heard this a couple times. So I'll try to keep it kind of brief. But obviously, recently, there has been a lot of wanting to kind of erase history, specifically about black and indigenous people and other immigrants, but especially those two. There's just been a lot of big move to remove it from. school curriculum and just museums, all of it. And for me, that is gaslighting. It felt very reminiscent to gaslighting, which is something I had to work through myself. And so I'm a little more

sensitive to it. So when some of that, and also, you know, like, let's not rewrite history. It's not just because I'm sensitive to it. But I was starting to get a little bit freaked out by it and the fact that a lot of people could be gaslit. And so I started remembering that the last time I was dealing with this on a personal level with my family, it was books and it was knowledge and it was that kind of stuff that helped me feel grounded and almost like protected from gaslighting was like having information and knowledge. So I've been reading a lot more nonfiction this year. It's not the only way you can learn, but the things I'm more interested in, I've been paying attention to. And so I wanted to do this continuing ed series, partially because for about a decade,

I have been noticing the things that were not a part of my education. And so I kind of just want to continue my education. And if this is something that other people also had not heard about just because of the way education is set up and I feel like this is a really approachable way for us to learn some of the gaps in at least my education. So that's that's my goal with this. And it made a lot of sense to do the first episode about original sins. Also has a really long subtitle about the miseducation of black and indigenous children. But I would also then say then it continues into like then what white education was about black and indigenous people as a whole. So this seems like a perfect book to

start with. And I heard about it from McKinsey Green, who is here with me today. Yeah. I keep forcing myself back onto your show. Oh, yeah. I need co-hosts. So what I'm here for it? No. I, what kind of drew you to the book? Well, it's interesting. So it's twofold. One, you know this. I am on a show that kind of threw me into being an educator on topics that I knew peripherally, knew of, knew about, but you know this better than I do when you find yourself unexpectedly in a debate with someone who's like, well, I want your facts. I want your knowledge. I don't understand what you're saying. This isn't what I've heard. All of a sudden, I had to go on this self-teaching journey that I could no longer just go off of like, well, this is what I know. These are the stories,

my lived experiences or the stories of the people in my life, you know, even something as small as I was recently thinking about like the barn, you know, something as small as I have family histories of lynching and violence in my life. That is not enough for some people you find yourself in a debate with. So you have to kind of go on this journey to get knowledge and facts and, you know, because facts are not feelings. And then I think the other part of what led me to this book is that very selfishly, like anytime there is a book about black education, I immediately get it to see if my dad is mentioned in it. And I think now more than ever, and this happened maybe a couple years ago when my dad was doing a speaking engagement. Like,

obviously what the Little Rock Nine were, what my dad was, have their significance. But we were at an event and the kid asked my dad, was it worth it? Like, yeah, like a kid said to him. Yeah, it was a young black kid that it was like, was it worth it? Do you wish you had stayed at? at Horace Mann. Like, was all that hell really worth it now that you see where we are right now? Like, what this has meant. Everything from what this book talks about, the trauma of what the education system is, how it's not built for black bodies, all this stuff.

It was like, was it worth it? And so I heard Eviewing on another podcast, and she was critiquing the desegregation movement to a certain extent of like, hey, they should have sent adults in. And so my spidey senses went up just from a curiosity standpoint of like, oh, okay, I I want to read this book because I don't know how, I mean, also full disclosure to the listeners. I am also my dad's speech writer. So I would prep him constantly. And so I was like, I want to read this book because I didn't have an answer that day when he came back and said, hey, this kid asked me, was it worth it?

And I was like, yeah. What do you mean? What do you mean this kid asked you that? So I, yeah, I went out in search of like an answer to was it worth it? And then along the way got even more answers and things that I didn't expect. And then you know this from my social. Like immediately I was like, every human needs to read this. Like, let's just start with all the educators.

You guys need to read it. And I was like, but truly every person following me curious about how we got here, like, please pick this book up because it will illuminate dark spaces for you that you've always been a little like, that doesn't make sense. or why was this this? Or like my boyfriend said, who is white, he was like, he felt very validated where he was like, I always kind of hated school to a certain extent. Like the way school was done. And it was this almost revelation of, well, now that I realize what it's built on, some of

these things I hated, I'm realizing they were never built for me to like ever enjoy it, truly. So, yeah, like a lot of different paths led me to this book. But boy, oh boy, does it kick in this? the teeth. Yes, it does. And for anyone who doesn't know, McKenzie's dad is one of the Little Rock Nine is what she's also, like, referencing. That was kind of why someone thought to ask him if the situation was worth it. And it, it is a hard question. It is a hard question. You know how we read this book, I'm thinking about it. And I'm like, you want the right to be educated the

same level that everyone else is. Truly, one of the. craziest fights I ever witnessed between my dad and his sister. This was over like a family brunch. It somehow devolved into her ultimately saying, because my aunt went to my aunt older than my dad, went to segregated schools, went to an HBCU, went on to be a black educator at a black school. And then here's my dad, desegregates Central, becomes the first African American after Brown versus board to like show the efficacy of this law, goes on to a PWI, all this stuff. And they were having, at the time, this is one of the few times my siblings and I were all on the same page. Like, they were ultimately having a fight that my aunt was like, I think it was a waste. Oh. Like,

I think we were better off before we were trying to play quote unquote their game rather than being the best in our world. And we three were just sitting there like, oh, this is crazy. This is the craziest fight we've ever been privy to is that the two of y'all are fighting about whether or not what dad did helped or hurt the black community. And we were just like, wow. It had never occurred to the three of us to ever have thought to ourselves that like there was a level of, I don't know, advantage that black folks had during that time of being able to control the education, the teachings, what was happening, knowing, okay, you're,

you're going to go from a black high school onto an HBCU. So we don't have to change the curriculum. We don't have to assimilate. We don't have to think of respectability politics, all this stuff in relationship to that. So, yeah, still to this day, like, that had always been sitting in the back of my mind, but when, like, a kid, like, ultimately somebody from the new gen said it,

that was the first time my brain went back to that fight and then sat in that moment, it went like, damn, you got that point. Like. Yeah, when it makes me think, I know I've seen you, talk about or write about or both like especially the age of the your dad

and the other kids as well it's like you don't like these people who people sometimes get thrust into like being a superhero quote of quote and it's like whenever it was I saw you talking about that I was like

I don't be I hadn't thought of that very often like it never heard of these people but it's like it doesn't they didn't dream of being a martyr or something. No, he was no one who like thought that. He was a 15 year old kid. Like, and I tell people this story all the time and I'm happy to give the context of it of like, my dad went to an info session.

This wasn't supposed to be a big deal. As he puts it, he was like, there was at least over 100 kids that signed the sign up sheet to do what they ultimately did. Like the schools were opened up and it was like, oh, let's do this. And I joke that like my dad lost his student body election for his senior. year and he was just too cool. So he didn't want to go back to Horace Mann because he lost his election and he didn't

want to be embarrassed in front of his friends. I was like, oh, those are the moments when I'm like, oh, you were clearly 15. Like, you were clearly a teenager that your soul concern was like, I don't want to embarrass myself in front of my friends. That's right. And that would be perfectly 15 of him. Exactly. And so

he signed all of this. He talked about how he was more concerned with what he was going to wear on the first day because they had told them, like, Maybe there would be cameras there. And then because Governor Fobbus got on TV the night before, my dad was like, clearly, the message didn't get to the other nine of us because technically we're 10 on the first day. Oh. And so that whole story of like Elizabeth Eckford, because they didn't have a home phone when Daisy Bates called around to tell everybody, hey, don't go directly to the school, meet at my house.

Like right after the gubernatorial address, she was the only one that didn't get the message because they didn't have a home phone. There was no way to get that message to them. So that's why she went to the school in her outfit and was waiting at the bus. Because she was like, I'm waiting on my friends. This is supposed to be a nothing burger. You know, like, yeah, Fobis had initially run. I mean, I tell this all the time. My grandmother voted for Fobis.

He was supposed to be the progressive candidate. You know, this kind of stuff didn't happen in Little Rock, which again feels reminiscent of where we are now where people are like, that kind of stuff doesn't happen here. We're not those kind of people. And so, yeah, yeah, he genuinely was just like a kid. kid. And then, yeah, because he was the lone senior, they, when they finally got them into school, they hung him in effigy outside of the school, they broke windows in, they were going to come in,

they were going to take him, they were going to hang him, because he was the same age, or he would have been the same age as Emmett Till. He and Emmett Till were born the same year. And so they used to constantly call his house, leave notes, places saying, you're going to be the Emmett Till of Little Rock. We're going to make an example of you. And they kept saying, if we can kill him, the rest of them will go home. They'll never come. come back. And so, yeah, it's like, it's, again, to your point, you read a book like this and you go like, oh, it goes all the way from Jefferson to now. That's so long ago. But in reality, it's not. And we are currently living in the wake of how recent it is. Like, it would not be this,

this real and visceral if it was not this current. And to your point, it is wild being, a descendant of history and watching history be rewritten in real time of like watching school curriculans change when you're like, well, these aren't fairy tales. These aren't fables. These aren't, these aren't biblical tales used to explain different morals and ethics. No, these are actual lived lives, human beings that still walk this earth. It's like Ruby Bridges has an Instagram page.

Yes. And I remember seeing her interview where she was like if I, because she was even younger, obviously. Yeah. She was a little girl. She was a child and by herself. Yes. And I remember seeing an interview of someone asking like, were you aware of what was happening? And she was even like, no. And I'm really glad I didn't. I think it would have been so much more terrifying if I knew the stakes of what was happening. Yeah. My dad said that all the time. But you're saying she has an Instagram. Yeah. My dad always jokes about how he fell on. in love with astrophysics because they were the lead story on the news. So like you go through all that hill for the day.

Obviously, these are four channels. He was like, I would come home after school and I would see my day being told back to me by like reporters. Like I was, he was like the nightly news would be led about the day I just had. And he goes, and it was not until Sputnik. went up in the air that we got a break from being the lead story. Yeah. And that's what got him into, that's what made him all.

And that's what, and he had this dream that he wanted to be an astrophysicist. And then obviously the story goes, the physics teacher hated him and made it his mission to flung him. And my dad hated science from then on out. Oh. Which is why now my mom and I was joke that we like wish he could meet Neil deGrasse Tyson. Yeah. See that like somebody did do the thing. Yeah.

Oh, man. Well, yeah, so... It's wild. It's wild. We're in it. And it's like, in the to read a book like this, you're like, yes. Oh, we've been in it. But yeah, it's, it's not, it's not far gone. And also, it was the, like, guiding principles of the way our country was founded. And then on the flip side of it, like, speaking to the, the subtitle of both black and indigenous history, I don't know fully the tribe, but like, I know my great-grandmother is an indigenous woman. I know her name was the Panky Cloud.

I know, like, I know she went by Mary. I know that her family sent her off. Like, I know there are parts of my family that exist in this world. I will never know because ultimately my understanding from the story is the choice her family was looking at was either scatter our kids to somewhere else so that, they don't end up in residential schools or keep them here with us. And so for all I know, I have cousins. I will never know exist. I have no way of finding them.

And so I think that was the other thing that made me curious about this book is because I know so little about indigenous history. And I want to know that part of myself in whatever way I can kind of cobble together from books because, you know, you and I both are the same way. We're like, I will find the answer somewhere in a book, fiction, nonfiction, like cookbook something. I will get an answer from here somewhere. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, I'm realizing, I have so many thoughts happening. But just in learning more about both indigenous and black cultures, I have become so aware of like, like community never felt attractive to me. and sometimes like I definitely grew up in a very white evangelical we don't we don't consume secular media we're in the world not of it bubble so it's not surprising that's not what I was learning but like that's like one of the things for me is the more I've learned about it I'm like who does want to just be like

pull yourself up by the bootstraps be an individual chase your manifest destiny yeah your manifest destiny like I think as I existed more in the world and less than my my world. Because I'll also say, and you know this, we joke about this all the time, like the way my grandmother saw religion, like all this stuff. Like, I mean, at the end of the day, that was

a black and indigenous woman. Like, of course, she saw everything so differently where it was like, we pray. We also go outside and touch the ground and remember to which we got our blessings. A very breaking grass of her. I know, I did want to hear any of your insights from that because you've read that and I just

got it. But, like, I think what's funny is to your point of community like you ain't even lays out like it's like community is going to be the way forward if we were to learn anything from indigenous wisdom and when I think about the world I came up in it was community you yeah and it wasn't just community of like it takes a village but really this thing of like finding wisdom in your elders talking to people trading resources all this stuff and then yeah I found myself in the world more. Yeah.

And it was like, well, what do you mean you don't want to work together on this project? What do you mean you don't want to share what we know? What do you mean we're not supposed to tell each other how much we're getting paid? Don't you want to? I have some information. I'll give you my information. You give me yours. And then we work together.

And even something as small is like, oh, that's a them thing. Like, you know, I have complained about this on other podcasts I'm on. I'm like, oh, I hate when people hit me with like, when I'm like, oh, people are so mean who listen to X, XYZ and they're like, oh, that's her, that's not me. And I'm like, no, no, you're part of that community. That is a we statement. And we have to

get better as a community. There's not a lot of, I guess, distancing in black and indigenous spaces when it comes to both knowledge and poor behavior. And I think we're, I think if we took a little bit more of an indigenous wisdom standpoint, I think that

would also deal with a lot of stuff we're dealing now. It wouldn't be, you know, that is this authority showing up in Chicago would be, we are failing ourselves. Yeah. I completely agree. And it's, isolation is like, I know you like cult, not like. It's, but it's cold. Yeah.

Isolation is so important. So it would make sense the dismantling community happened. Yeah. And I think Ewing even lays out in the people. Yeah. And Ewing lays that out a little bit in the book. It's like that isolation sense is the, is the test. It's the labeling.

It's the neatly fitting people into, in a sense, almost like the carceral system of education. Yeah. As wild. Yes. Oh, that was just reminding me of another book. Oh, Eloquent Rage, which you actually have like on the ear. She talks about different epistemologies, which is what I didn't even know what that was,

but that's like who, like, who decides what knowledge is. knowledge and how things will be taught. I don't have my notes up from that one. But if you are interested in kind of like a broader view of feminism, I loved that book so much. It was really, really good. And she talked about just like the, especially like the epistemology from black women is so inclusive and more community

based and interaction based, not just like being talked at. I think a perfect example, and I think about this all the time, because they bring it up in word slut, too, of how we use linguistics. It's the yes, okay. Oh, period. And I immediately think of it for this last Met Gala, which because it was based on black dandyism, there were two black host. And it was Ego Wodom and Tiana Taylor. And I am not remembering the gentleman's name. And I'm sure people are going to be like, how do you not? He's like one of the biggest stars of Bollywood. And he came up. and he was talking to them and they were asking him about his outfit and the designer kind of interrupted and it was like, you know he's one of the biggest stars in Bollywood. You know, it's almost this kind of like, you should revere him. And they

hit him with like a ok, period. And it was funny to watch online, to your point of like the epistemology of words, people were like, how dare they interrupt him? That was so good. Do they not understand that Shah Rukhan is this big celebrity? And I was like, no, that was them confirming him like you are who you believe you are and we know that's right you wouldn't be saying that

if that one you know it's just it's such a yeah it's all yeah it's all so different and I think one of the most beautiful things in kind of like you know a self-learning journey is yeah I love that Mark Twain thing it's like I love self-learning journeys because when you keep your shore of ignorance and sight you're like oh I got a lot more to go here we go and it just keeps growing Like when you pick up a book like this, all of a sudden, that shoreline goes from like this to just it's out of the screen. And all of a sudden you're like, cool. Yeah, it should be making you think you know even less than you know. And I love that.

Like the more you learn, you realize the less you know. I'd rather be humble in that sense once you start. I'd rather feel like an idiot every day. That's my takeaway from like a book like this is I'd rather finish a book and be like, damn. I don't know any of this. Yeah. Yeah. I had the experience of reading this and then reading since I'm going to throw some fiction out there.

I read the reformer story by Tananarivu right after this. And we are going to mostly talk about the indigenous aspects in this book. We'll probably circle back at some time to the other parts. But since we are releasing this on Indigenous People's Day. So that's what we're going to focus on. However, reading the reformatory right after this, I had just started thinking I might want to do like nonfiction and fiction pairing. So like, if you're interested in something, but you just can't, just nonfiction doesn't do it for you, you could try reading this. And I'd like just said that.

And then I got the reformatory because it was on sale, the audio book. And then that, that's about like a school for black boys that was a reforming school, which was, oh, it's harrowing. It's a harrowing one, but it's very good. And she's one of my new favorites. So you do. You start being like, oh. Yeah. I had no idea this kind of stuff was happening.

And then you read a very like emotionally like resonant version of it in fiction. And you're like, yeah, there's a lot of stuff I don't know happen. That's what I'm saying. That's why I wrote in my dad's speech ones, you know, Islamic racism is like sugar. It's in everything. Once you start turning labels over, you're like, damn, I can't have nothing. And at first, and I think that is something I would tell anybody is like, at first it feels so restrictive when you start reading labels. Because you find it in all your old favorites.

Yes. You're like, well, what am I supposed to eat? Like, your immediate reaction when you go on a diet and find out what you can't have? You're like, well, what can I have? Yes. And then it is that moment where once you calm down, you learn new recipes, you teach yourself about new ingredients, you expand. You notice it. You notice it.

All of a sudden, you're like, well, I do have a lot of foods to choose from. I have a lot of new recipes I can try. It's a different way to get to this. And then sometimes, unfortunately, you have to be like, I like this thing this much. And I have to know the harm I'm doing by enjoying it and ingesting it. And, you know, what I want to do with that? I'm looking at myself when it comes to college football now. Yeah, I know.

Football in general. I know football in general because I'm talking about this online. But I'm like, because I was one of those people in the theater watching him being like, oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. So many quotes. Like I took so many notes because we were in the back. that's a whole separate episode we'll have to do it.

It probably should be. Yeah, we'll have to do that around. Yeah, there you go. That'll be all of our Super Bowl half time. Yeah, that'll be our Super Bowl episode. I'm good with that. But if you haven't watched it yet, you should go watch it. The imagery is fantastic.

The allusions to all kinds of things is amazing. And also just like when I talk about how you can tell when an author was having fun writing something, I feel like the same, the way, that they use like ice baths and Uber and saunas and like all the Uber crazy stuff that athletes use and then flip it into horror was like chef's kiss. It's so good. And Tyreef Withers is fun to look out for an hour and a house. Wow. He's a great time. He's just, he really is baby girl. Like he really is. I need to watch. I know what you did last summer. Yeah, no. I think you'll like lose your mind and be like, oh, also watch his episode of Atlanta. You'll be like,

Oh, yes. He is that guy. Yes. I loved Atlanta. Atlanta was another one of the... Atlanta, that was... I've been trying to make a list of all of the different things that helped me what I'm calling lose my ignorance. And Atlanta was one of them. Like, Atlanta was the first time that I was like, what is Juneteenth? And then he has a whole Juneteenth episode, and I was like, yeah, that feels like something important I should have known.

So, yeah, go watch Atlanta, too. But original sense. Yeah. Yeah. So it obviously important or fittingly, we have to go all the way back to settlers arriving here because the land was not undiscovered. There were native people here. And that was, he didn't call it manifest destiny. but Jefferson, he basically, he writes notes on the state of Virginia, is this book that he writes

to kind of talk about his philosophies. And he's also one of George Washington's, like, closest advisors at this point, which is pretty important. Shackingly, he is not Davy Diggs in Hamilton kind of fun. Not that kind of fun. No. No. And so essentially this first book that he writes is getting into the idea of manifest destiny. And so we have him saying things like, and I'm quoting the book, if you want any references, I have the references ready from the book. But he said, though, for a century and a half, we have under our eyes the races of black and red men, they have yet, they have never been viewed by us as subjects of now.

natural history. And so he wanted to put into place this system where every year an expert would choose a brilliant boy from black and indigenous communities whose parents were poor and they would send him forward

for further schooling to be paid for collectively. And then he ends that idea with by this means 20 of the best geniuses will be raked from the rubbish annually. Yeah. So this is this is where we started.

Yeah. I think from my end, outside of, obviously, as we're going to dig deeper into the indigenous portion of this, but it gave me tones of W.E.B. Du Bois and the talented

10th kind of idea. Right. Which, yeah, which again, like, as you unpack history, you start finding yourself being like, oh no. Yes.

Like, you don't even realize how much sugar is in your recipe. Like, you know. Yes. And I think what. They didn't have as much access and information. It's so much harder to, like, separate white thoughts in your head, I'm assuming. Yeah.

And I think what's so fascinating, and I will always think about it when it comes to indigenous people, to your point, like, there were people here. There is a reason the land was so plentiful and could be tilled and used for profit because other people had been here first and done all of this originally. So, yeah, it was almost like having people join in on a group project. that is already on its way to an A. And then you're like, great. Now I'm going to add a couple extra sentences.

And you're like, wait, wait, wait. This is my project. Yeah. I saw someone because obviously we can't even avoid current events in the context of all this. And I saw someone saying like, we should be able, essentially like, we should be able to understand and welcome immigrants because like we were having the same situation, the people who became the founding. and someone correctly pointed out, they were like, they were not fleeing religious oppression. They were not fleeing anything. They saw something they liked. And they were like, this is ours now. That is actually different. And I think this might sound silly for people

that are like, don't you know better than this? But for some reason, reading this book, like, I've always been able to understand Andrew Jackson as the villain in the American story and in the oppression of indigenous peoples. But I don't think I fully understood Jefferson's culpability. Same, yeah. Like, I understood him in relationship to the Sally Hemings and the owning of the slaves part. But it did not occur to me.

And the book gets into this. It did not occur to me the damage that he and so many others did to the indigenous population. Like, Ewing gets into it later in the book and we'll talk about it. but I even realized something as small is talking about indigenous people in the past tense. Yes. It's just like. The first time I heard E-Vewing say that on the podcast I listened to her on, I was like, oh my God, that's so true. It's only learning about how they lived.

Lived. It's never living. Yes. And it's funny, and this may sound silly to some people. It did not hit me how active the indigenous. population was how robust the history on the res's were until I watched, we're here. The show about drag queens going into small town America and trying to teach about love and extending grace and the power of drag.

And it was an episode where they went to a res and they transformed three people that I was like, way, they're... Wait, right now? You're dealing with what? Huh? What? You know, it was, I just felt, for some reason, I felt so stupid in that moment. Oh, and then the other time.

I have those moments. Yeah. This is the other time I also realized like, oh, wait, indigenous people are now, not just amongst us. Right. As like civilians was, talk about current events. It was Jillian Michaels had a show. Oh, wait. She had a show about helping.

America get fit. And I remember she went to an indigenous woman and in the episode there was a moment where she is chastising an elder about serving fry bread to people on the reservation. And what's crazy is now when I think

about it, she was telling this person not to make processed food. Rather than saying, hey, let's get back to your roots. Let's get back to indigenous wisdom when it comes to moving your body and nutrition and all this stuff. Instead, it was like, you should try Gatorade Zero.

Yes. And I'm like, and now in Highside, I'm like, that was such a wild episode. Why did we all let that air? Right. That's a, to your point of like not even acknowledging the wisdom, I can't remember what her name is, but I just started following her. But there was a professor who did this really cool explanation of like when Tana Hacy Coates was with Ezra. Oh, yeah, Ezra Klein.

Klein. I don't know why Klein left me. And like, Tana Heisi references that he's had recent family members die from racist violence. And Ezra starts talking about meditation. Like, just starts talking

about his meditation practice and how it changed his life. And she did this great carousel, so I'll link it in the notes about how this was an example of co-opting, of a spirituality and not having an understanding that like in the Buddhist culture there's meditation but service is just as much a part of it and there's another there's a third part that's just as important but like I think about reading about being a community yes I think about reading this book

of how many people do we know that are like I'm going to stage this space oh my gosh yes and you're kind of like oh okay okay all right yeah I know yeah Yeah, very similar. So, yeah, so Jefferson was actually, he was so, the philosophy in general was very accepted at the time. And I think this was a really important part that she points out here at the beginning that he's one of the most influential figures in U.S. history. He writes one of the most influential texts in U.S. history. and even to this man, matters of race and matters of schooling were inseparable.

And so he had kind of an obsession with establishing the order of these two things, the hierarchy of man and the way that a man should be educated would be crucial to the foundation of his righteous republic. Yeah. So current times, we like to think, I've been hearing a lot about how it's not in the system. and this you can't combine the two. It's been there since the very beginning.

Yeah. And I think what stood out to me is like that next portion where they talk about how Jefferson ultimately is the one who gives us the two archetypes, which are the Vanishing Indian and the Noble Savage. Yeah. And I think, yeah, it's like this idea that they would choose death over surrender and like they're such barbarians and you need to use force. You know, it's speaking about a group of people as though they are an animal that needs to be broken in or, and we know why else would you break an animal other than to be able to use them to get your labor done.

And so I think even just that usage of like, you know, oh my God, we got to, we got to get them under control. We have to, you know, we're taking this land because it's for the better. Would you want to leave it in their hands kind of thing? and yeah, I heard Chris Jackson, speaking of George Washington, or Chris Jackson say, you know, history, if history doesn't repeat itself, it definitely rhymes. And I think those ideas of like, they need us. They need us to break them.

What else would they do if not for our control kind of thing is like, you know, yeah, we love to play out a broken record. Yes. It's very much the beginning of white saviorism. Yes. I would assume because it's like, going all the way back then, that's when it would have started. It's like, God has sent me here and I am saving these people.

I mean, it's what Manifest Destiny is. I would send to tame this land, to keep pushing forward, to conquer and conquest so that I can help us move forward. And it's like, I am on a mission by God to make this land, inhabiting this land, inhabits. and grow and prosperous. And it's like, holy mother of God. Yes. And it's like all to justify the fact that they came here. They liked what they saw.

And they were like, that needs to be mine. And how can I make it seem like I'm a good person and say that this is mine? Well, I'll just say God told me. Yeah. It's just like the oldest excuse in the book. Yes. Yeah. Oh, why can't women do this?

well, God told me you couldn't handle this. You know, and it's just, it's really, I think the hardest thing about the Jefferson portion, like, so early in the book is it is the beginning of seeing a thread on your clothes and being like, oh, well, just rip that right off. And you realize, like, as you just pull on that part of just Jefferson alone, you're like, oh, my God, I'm about to unravel this whole thing. Yes. And we just started. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's what stood out to me, especially in these first parts of the book, is also the projection.

So we, I say this because, you know, technically I am dissented. You're like, I am of people. I like how you're like, I am of the white delegation. I am of these people. Show up, want the land, take the land. Now, they take it by force and with raping and with pillaging. And, like, force is needed. Like, they're not being handed the land.

And then the fact that they immediately turn around and are like, we must tell everyone how savage these people are. Like, it's classic projection. It's classic, it's even classic narcissism. This is what you learn, like, any way that they can be the victim or the saviors is going to make them feel like they can justify their actions. So that was the part that was standing out to me so much. I was like, you were savages and you needed to like point it in a different direction. And I think when I think about how the book lays out things like Saka Jui or I think about like Louisiana Purchase, it's like, what in the world are we talking about Louisiana Purchase? Who are you buying this land from?

This was not your land to sell to begin. And I think and I think when we like here we are now sitting in modern times, you know, and this is a bit of a tangent when people are like, how are we so behind? And it's like we're not behind. We had a head start. Imagine making money off of like, imagine you steal a Birken bag. And then you find somebody on the street and you're like, this is a rare ostrich skin burkin bag. Yeah.

I will sell this to you for $100,000. And people are like, wow. Or like a million dollars. And people are like, oh, my God, Kate. Wow. You're such a brilliant. And like, down the road, people are like, Kate, you were such a brilliant businesswoman. And you're like, thank you so much.

I built this company with nothing more than a single buyer. I built this whole vintage selling collection off of just one first purchase. And it's like, we're not talking about the fact that the bag was stolen. People that work for your company aren't getting paid. Like, that you didn't come up with it. You didn't come up with it. Like all this stuff. We're just all like, wow.

Kate is good for you. Good for you. You're industrials. You're incredibly. This is probably one of the most powerful businesses. in the world. And you're like, thank you so much. And meanwhile, the woman who you initially sold the first bag from is like,

okay, but can we ever talk about the fact that she launched this business off of my stolen purse? And everybody's like, yes. You're being dramatic. And honestly, I don't see any other luxury purses in your collection. And she's like, because Kate stole all of them. Okay. But maybe she did it for a reason. Like, obviously, you'd still have luxury items if you took good care of them.

And you're like, I can't help it. If she comes in my house, takes my things, and then sells them to other people. Yes. And her entire company is run by people she's not getting paid by. And they're like, yeah. All right. Well, I think you're being a little hysterical. So honestly, me, it's just like, yeah, maybe you should move someplace else.

Yeah. Yeah. If you're going to be so dramatic about this. I was like, yeah, that's the way I can make sense of it. That it's like when you think about how we tell this. the story of Sakajua. I mean, God bless Disney, you know I love them, but now in hindsight, I'm like,

baby, Bocahana should have never been made. No, she never made that movie. Oh, my God. There is, I have to, I'm going to sneak in my fiction recommendations. There's a book called, oh my gosh, I have to remember her name. There's a book called, and then

she fell, and it is like indigenous, domestic social horror by Alicia Elliott. And literally, this is like the prologue, so I don't think it's a spoiler. But in the prolog, the indigenous main character is watching Pocahontas, and she comes out of the screen and tells her, like, her actual history, not the Disney-fied history. And that's the opener. Oh, boy.

It's fantastic. It's also very emotionally moving. I hadn't cried in a book in a while and I was like finishing the audiobook in the shower like crying. I was like this seems more depressing than it is but it's just so emotional. So another one where re-education or

like learning her actual history is like a big part of the horror aspect that's going on. Also shout out to this new era of I feel like indigenous writers using horror as a way. to get the story out. Like, I feel like we're seeing a rise of indigenous horror books

and thrillers to explain the actual horrors of what happened. Yes. It's, I come back to a... The quote at the beginning of the other black girls, black history is black horrors.

I know we're talking about indigenous, but unfortunately, that's like a lot of... These two stories go in tandem with each other, yeah. Mm-hmm. Is horror. And also, I'm interested in... her but Tanana Reid do does it so well to the reformatory is very good but the 22 hour

audio book I was just saying I had to finish which I may not have said that on air was her the good house came in for me through Libby and the beginning of it I meant to mention this earlier when we were talking about your grandma being a black and indigenous woman that's the beginning of it is 1929 a black woman she's either black and indigenous or it's a black woman married to an indigenous man. So it's all there, but she's like the healer of that town. And it's like, otherwise they hate her. But when they need people to be healed, they bring them. And then it's something happens that curses this house back in 1929. And then the present day, which was 2001, was when this book was written, is like dealing with everything that happened back then. So that's a

really fun fiction horror as well. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. It is long. It's about 600. pages. Would I say that technically it could have been shorter? Yes, but I still enjoyed a lot of it. So if you can get in it for the long haul is one that you'll probably enjoy. But let's see. So I mean, I think the other, like there's a note you have in here that I think is so interesting are these kind of like Jefferson in these notes talking about like they subsist on animal flesh. They cover themselves and in the skins. of wild beast. And it's like, okay, girl, don't be bad because we're resourceful. Exactly. Rude. I'm looking good. Doing it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The resourcefulness is what's so fascinating. Yeah. With, again, both indigenous and black cultures where it's like... You use every bit of what you have. Because that is born out of, when you read braiding scripts, it's born out of respect for the land. Yeah. Oh, even that.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I'm not going to just kill this buffalo for a truck. trophy or whatever. It's like, I'm going to kill this buffalo for skin, for meat, for bones to make weapons, for, you know, it's like I'm going to use every part of this out of respect. Like, you know, I'm on this journey to understand the underpinnings, a lot of it of like diet culture and women. And like when I even read braiding sweetgrass, it made me think of and even this portion of Jefferson saying like, oh my God, they eat the flesh and use the skin. It's like,

When we talk about the broken animal husbandry system now, if we were to use more indigenous wisdom, I don't think we would be having depleted soil, factory farms, all this stuff. Right. But because we want, we're not thinking about how do I raise the chicken out of respect and take from it while giving gratitude through it to it during its life. We're like, I need the biggest chicken you got in the fastest time I can. It's like, comfortable of hormones. Yeah, and it's like, do whatever you got to do to get it, get it, get it. As we're when you read a book like this, you realize indigenous wisdom says, are there apples in the spring?

No. You ain't got no apples. Yeah. Yeah. And so you're like, oh, okay, I have no access to apples. Understood. Right. You know, I think they're, yeah.

It's just, it's crazy to me that such a quote unquote learned man. Yeah. Could not have the intellectual humility to see. the level of knowledge that these people were working with. Yeah, it's like the greed is obviously the biggest problems for centuries. But it's kind of like what you're saying there, but you're also like, but if you were greedy, wouldn't you want to know about systems that have been working for a really good time? Like, even if you were greedy.

If you truly were smart and really on that business minded, you'd be like, how are you pulling this off? Yeah. Teach me everything you know. And I think, again, that comes with a level of intellectual. sexual humility that we see throughout the book that Ewing is showing that indigenous wisdom comes from a place of questions, curiosity, you know, respect. And those are not, do not run in tandem with what manifest destiny even requires you to be. You ask no questions. You just keep pushing forward. You don't stop and go, should we even be living over here? Yes. Yes. Which also, Geles and John

Wayne. Another great example that talks about how we went from like Jesus being a like kind person who spoke truth to government to someone who was like shoot them up Western movies and like push push push and take take take like

or I always laugh reading this book like speaking of like Manifest Destiny that's what I'm supposed to be right it's the I think about every year around this time when people live in these wildernessy places and they're like, a bear broke in my house. Yeah.

I'm like, well, that was the bear's home first. You just happened to put a house there. And it's kind of like, yeah, but I live here now. The bear should stay out of my way. And I'm like, no, no. The bear has generations of existing in this space. That bear does not know that you paid the age, Maricio at the agency to buy a $10 million log cabin.

Right. That bear doesn't care. That bear has been. here. And if somebody who had cultivated and prospected the land had paid attention, they, like what indigenous wisdom offers is, hey, yeah, you came to look at the land in the winter. Come back in the spring. Come back in the summer. Come back in the fall. Wait.

Be patient. See what this land does all year. Then you might have seen, oh, damn, there's a lot of bears that come through here. Yeah, we probably shouldn't put a house here. But instead, you're like, what, beautiful land. It's got a gorgeous view of this river in the back. And it's like, yes, because this is where the bears come. Yes. For a year. You know, it's just, I think what this whole early portion, particularly that lays the foundation of like, you know, Jefferson, even here's this, this known atheist that now everybody apparently loves, which kills me to this day that you have a certain group of people who are like, the founding fathers. I'm like,

the founding fathers were atheists. But like you have Jefferson, this atheist who is now prophesizing. Yes. That we have to do this. And I'm like, oh, so now you found some sort of religion when it comes to the subjugation of other people. Like, my guy, what? Relatively convenient. It always reminds there's an Anne Lamont quote about like if God is always on your side,

you might be worshipping yourself and not God. I love that. And I'm butchering it, but that is the essence of the quote is like, if God is your justification for things, like, you might have turned yourself into an idol or your race into an idol or whatever. Meanwhile, you tease me all the time whenever I'm like, am I a bad person? Am I a narcissist? And you're like, fun story, McKenzie. Narcissists don't ask themselves if they're narcissists.

And so I think about that oftentimes, like what you just said when it comes to. Like, God told me I need to have this. I am convinced all the time that God is like, girl, I'm. don't know what you are doing. I'm going to try to protect you from yourself. Yes. It never occurs to me at any decision I make. Yes.

And I'm like, God told me to you, I'm like, I'm just looking up being like, is this, does this go with what you think? And then I'm like, if it's not, you're probably going to take it away from me, right? Right. You know, in my curtain circumstance, I'm like, I looked up and God was like, yeah, I didn't want you to do any of this. I didn't think that was the way. Yeah.

So I actually took it all away and I'm like, okay. Okay. Okay. That's great. I didn't want to be Job, but whatever. Yeah, I'm like, that's hilarious. I don't like that part of the story. I did not sign up to these trials and tribulations.

Yes. Yeah. It's anytime God is getting used as a justification, just think about who you're hearing it from. Yeah. And typically if you're doing something lovely and loving, you don't need a justification. So I think it's only when people are doing bad stuff. They need God's justification.

You usually don't have to get a, yeah, you usually don't have to get a message or a dream. or all the things if it's the right thing. You will step into it and it will continue to work. You know, I... Yes. Now in the hindsight of reading E.V. Hewing's book, to your point, I think about, like, the Oregon Trail. Yeah.

And I'm like, hey, to be real honest, guys, as somebody who is convinced God is constantly sending me signs, by the time I hear about the fifth person that died of dysentery, I'm going to turn to everybody in the group and go, I don't think we're supposed to go that way. Right. I think we need to stay right where we are because people keep dying, fording rivers, eating the food, the rattlesnake for killing. Everything's that direction seems to be taking them out. Yes.

Just stay here. Yeah. It's kind of logical. Kind of easy to get there. At the very least, what if we just stay on this side of the Mississippi? Because it does not seem to be going well for us that direction. Yes. Yeah.

I'm with you on that. Well, I think outside of Jefferson, I love that you have the next portion, which really, again, another one that hit me between the eyes is education for extinction. Yeah, we start kind of moving into that. And this was my, I've heard indigenous people, indigenous authors talking about, oh, like words that have colonial connotations that you don't think about. And this was the book where I was like, oh, yeah, why were we using the word civilized? and the way that we were kind of using it, it says through Jefferson's lens, the people who were

original occupants of the land were a type of creature, he and his contemporaries came to define as a savage, with particular qualities different from his own normal civilized human qualities. Yeah. I like, he was like, hey, y'all are not civilized. And when I blew me away, we used to demean people. Well, this whole United States board. of Indian commissioners and this idea that like we cannot tolerate any more than a half civilized parasite, a wanderer, a vagabond. Yeah. The only alternative left is to fit him by education for civilized life.

Yes. Yeah. Like immediately that whole portion for me was very triggering thinking of my education, even in these fancy private schools where it's like, sit still, be quiet. do this, do that, don't go here. Like, I remember at one point leaving and going to a school for neurodivergent people, which again, we can argue this whole conversation of neurodivergents, what is it called, two-spirited people in indigenous circles, like this stuff exists there, right?

So it's this idea at this school for neurodivergent people. It was like, hey, Connor, you really fidget. This was pre-fidget toys. It was like, you want to have, we can have a standing desk brought in for you. you know, let's do the lesson outside today. Yep. Everybody's really distracted by the air conditioner in here. Let's move into another room.

You know, it was, it was teachers at the school. Yeah, it was teachers at the school saying, I remember at one point, your Capstone project, they basically said to you, would you like to do this like auditory, kinesthetic, physical? Yeah. And you were like, and I remember the first time, like, stepping out of, you know, ultimately what the education system is built on,

stepping into a school like that and being told like, how do you want to do your, your project to show that you read Langston Hughes over the break? And you're like, I mean, I like to make a song. And it was kind of like, yeah, sounds great. Let's do it. Somebody from the music program will, will work with you and help you through this.

And so, yeah, it's truly, it's really mind-blowing. Like, when you read a section like this where it's like, this line alone, it's cheaper to feed than to fight the Indian. And so ultimately school was just kind of like, great, we can break these kids here. Yeah, it got to a point where they wanted to educate them. And to your point, it got to a point where the way that they were like trying to sell it was that it would save them money. Yeah.

So just saying like, oh, it would save us money. Yeah. And I think that gets back to, you know, the great line from what is it, Rush Hour 2 is like, follow the money. And then you'll get the answer to how we got here. And I feel like that, yeah, that's a big one here. It's like, oh, it's cheaper to feed them and to fight them. Yes. Are you for real right now? Like, those are the only options is like what they started acting like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I got it. I mean, and I think this is just my person. curiosity. As someone who's never watched a single episode of the Gilded Age, I know guys, fight me later. Just that line where they're like, this is happening during the Gilded Age, very selfishly,

I said HBO. I think we have some characters you need to add to the story. Yeah. I think we have some things you need to acknowledge in this, that I would be curious to just even hear this be acknowledged at the table by like Cynthia Nixon's character while they're

talking about who's going to... Because they would be. They would be talking about this while also discussing who's going to have patronage of the Met. Yes. That was, that reminds me of Viola Davis in her memoir. She talks about, like, she knew that it's that, it's that tension of like, do you exist in the system to try to improve it or do you just exist outside of it? And she knew she wanted to be inside it. And so she talks about how specifically, in it's not the secret life of bees or is it? I think it is. Secret life of me. It is the secret life of bees. Okay.

Like she agreed to play that part, but she said to the directors and writers, I will play that part if the black women who are essentially taking care of these white women's homes. I will do it if there are, I'll do it if there are scenes where we're all talking and you're hearing our point of view. Yes.

And they added that. in because they wanted her in the movie. So it's like, I always think of how powerful that can be, actually, when I was reading The Great Man, it was also coming up for me too, which was another one you posted about, where that one tackles the idea of like some black people would be angry at some black actresses because you're like, oh, you're perpetuating certain stereotypes. Yeah. But they might have been pushing back on them just a little bit that they eventually changed. So it's so hard to decide what to do with that. I think the other one, the, the quote, that really, I mean, you talk about history repeating itself, this line about we do believe in a standing army,

but it should be an army of Christian school teachers. And the idea is painfully. When I tell you, it feels like people are pointing fingers. Yeah. Because the idea that they were like, the battleground is education. They knew. They knew. And I think, again, it goes to that thing where, you know, for those of us that want, to learn. Certain things happen in the world. You go, did you know this was a tactic that was used before?

Going to the schools and getting the kids there? Or did you just happen to stumble upon a generational playbook that has worked out repeatedly? Yeah.

It's like the crazy part is we are continuing, education continues to be the battleground to get people before they learn too much. Yes. it's like we do know that you can make kids believe something with like their whole heart

because they're like what else are they going to believe like the information they receive is all is the only thing it's like my family was weird in lots of ways I was also a part of a weird church for a really long time and I knew it felt off but until I saw another way and heard another way and talk to people who lived another way. It's like, you don't know what you don't know. It's like that part. Kate lore is beautiful. Kate lore is my favorite. And as silly as it sounds and like this is more an aside for both you and the audience,

you are the, you are one of the main reasons. I was like, I'm going to keep trying. Like, keep trying to reach people. Because I think ultimately to meet someone like you who truly has every excuse in the world to not learn any of this, that there is more comfort in lack of better word in ignorance than there is in knowing. I truly all the time go back to like, until the day comes where you send me a note and say, that's not okay. Like you and Sarah Fisher for me, like, weirdly, this may sound strange are like my white women litmus tests. Like when I run stuff best you two and I'm like,

is that okay? Did I do too much? I have to do that. I've got to you too. Yeah. And it's like, we do. We exchange it where I'm like, was that too far? Did I do too much? And then you're like, nope, no, that was totally fine. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm gonna keep going then. You know, it's like I really do. I always, you know that. I always admire. Like, I feel like you are the antithesis or maybe the better yet, you are like the worst nightmare to somebody like Henry Pratt. Like you are, you are her general Richard Henry Pratt's worst nightmare. Yes. Well, that means a lot to me. And I think, I mean, a lot of mine, I've been able to learn more because of what you've even talked about. So it goes both ways. We're cross-pollinating our information and all of that. Speaking of indigenous wisdom, that is indigenous wisdom. It's like, I have shells. Hey, I have sticks.

Hey, I have, you know, this great mud. Hey, what if we all combine the thing together and make a thing with it? Oh, dope. We now have this thing together. Let's go show everyone. but we made with our collective rather than individually being like I'm going to try to learn everything

and it's like yeah in isolation there's nothing and I think to the point of like this whole idea of corporal punishment in schools like that the book gets into it's like yeah the fabric of the native education experience is isolation and punishment in that isolation

so that there is is and it is also holding that person up as an example of, hey, don't behave like them or you will suffer the same fate. And so it's almost self-correct and force yourself into it so that you do not get the quote-unquote savage beaten out of you. And instead, you know, it's this line here, kill the Indian save the man. And it's like, golly, Moses. Like, can we get a break?

You know, but that relies on. And hey, you'll get something if you tell us that this person is, you know, celebrating the harvest festival. Okay. I get to avoid punishment if I rat out someone else. If we don't work together, you know. Yeah. We had that happening during COVID as well. It was like, please tell on your neighbors for like, you know, maybe leaving for just a little bit to like experience a little bit of outdoors.

And you know what's funny now when I think about it? A lot of COVID locked out, this is going to sound insane to some people. And, you know, maybe I'm cooking, maybe I'm not. I think it did force us to lean into a little bit of indigenous wisdom in the sense that you had to meet outside and in community. There was no individual drop by houses. It was like, hey, if I want to see my parents, we've all got to work together collectively to figure out how to make this happen. Where are we meeting? You know, who's bringing what?

because we all can't, we can't go to the store. So who's got this to bring to this gathering? Hey, well, who's got that? Okay, well, we can't go into a movie theater anymore. Well, I want to experience story with other people. Well, I don't know. Maybe you could go to a park and read a book. And people felt so isolated.

Hey, what are you reading? Oh, this is a book I have. I just get some sunlight. Like, all of a sudden, it was like, well, I got to get across town. Well, you can't go across town. Okay, well, I'm going to have to call somebody. Or I'm going to have to walk. And maybe I'll ask my friend, hey, is it safe to walk through your neighborhood?

Yeah. You know, it's like, I think, yeah, it sounds weird, but like to watch nature heal and to watch people have to rely on one another. Yeah. I think we- The environment improved to your point about nature. Like the, like, smog was better in certain cities and size were fair. We had to move in a direction that required community, which again, indigenous wisdom requires

community and collaboration. that it's like, I, you know, I wish we could have the catalyst that everybody realized, like, hey, isn't everybody shocked that we got through this global pandemic together? Yes. Because we all talked to each other and shared information and said, hey, don't buy those masks, buy this mask. Oh, thanks, man. Appreciate it. Don't go on that street.

Go on this street. You know, all of a sudden, TikTok was a communal thing of like, oh, oh, you're going to tell your story. Yeah, that was what got me to TikTok, really. Yeah. It was like, oh, we're learning a dance together. cool can you show that to be a little slower yeah yes yeah it really was a little microcosm of that so I think the one that also makes me most nauseous in that section which sounds so stilly is the cutting of the hair I know that's what I was going to go to next

so like this this Pratt dude just thought that he he thought it was given to him by God too this this that he was going to be the best civilizer is essentially the best way to put But this dude is like, God wants me to be a civilizer. And so in the book, it talks about how the first step, he had their leg irons removed because also it was called a school, but they were being forced into school. And it was a school prison, something else combo that I have somewhere. But he removed their leg irons and then he cut their hair. And then he distributed old army uniforms to all of them to wear.

and then then sensing a public relations opportunity because why don't you need that for your school prison Pratt called photographers

in to ensure that he had photos of the captives before and after the haircuts to serve as later of their transformation with the before and after is what it actually

made me feel reminiscent of is diet culture in the 2000s yes it's like this idea of using before and after imagery to also to get ahead of a public narrative

to tell people what is right and what is wrong, right? It was us growing up seeing like, look at Tyra. Now look at Tyra. I was going to bring up in the next top model, but the makeovers. Yeah, it very much gave me that vibe, which, you know, I'm always deeply obsessed with like the damage the 2000s did to us.

And I was like, wow. Same. Before and after photos have always been some sort of weird propaganda. Tell people what they should be aspiring to. That's what I was going to say. you see it enough times and you're like, oh, like, no matter what, you see it enough times, you're thinking that person looks so much better.

And as actually, as someone, both of us have taken GLP ones. Yeah. Because also, I wanted to feel healthy as the other part of it. I understand that it's a thorny subject. But I know exactly what I mean this. I prefer being thin, but. Yes. But I genuinely have refused to put up it before.

and after. Same. Because I realize even what this book is saying is like, it is meant to show you what is wrong and what is aspirational. Yep. And I'm like, listen, y'all, I was aspirational when I was big and I was aspirational now. So I'm never going to put these two girls side to side because they're both bad bitches. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So that's a whole, yeah, we can definitely, sometime we'll have a, we'll have an episode about all that. We'll have to do like a

lot of that comes together. We'll have to do a girl-on-girl episode or maybe one about that top model book to be a little. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I want to read that one too. Have you read it yet? I've just, I've heard about it,

but I'm like, little bit of the triggers. Yeah, I think it's called you want to be on top, I think. Yeah. It's something crazy. But, and I think even following that, um, the idea of, because it's funny,

because I just so, Tracy, my friend who has a literate podcast, I have a lot of bookish friends. She always talks about she started her podcast, The Stacks, because of this book, Blood and the Water about the Attica prison uprising. Okay. And I was always kind of like, yeah, prison reform, fix it. And then how the book immediately goes into like, oh yeah, no, the penopticon, the idea of what you know a prison to be, the tower, watching everybody. Yes. Girl, where do you think that came from? And I was like, oh, God, everything gets back to education. Yeah. Hell's and racism

both of them together. Yeah, I'm just like, no, Colin is angry racism are screwing us all over. Yes. Yes. Well, that's a good segue, because the Panopticon was one of the,

it's covered in Pratt made really big use of it. This might have been, I mean, there's a lot of this book that's harrowing and sad, but I know why it resonated with me so much, because this is how a lot of white

evangelicalism is setup is very panopticon like. So the concept of a panopticon, if this word, you're like, what are you guys talking about? Um, so it's a, and you, if you're watching on YouTube, I'll show a picture, but you can also Google, that's what I did to see the picture. Um, but a prison model in which a guard sits at the center and is able to see captives at all times and from all possible directions. So it's, it is like when you see those, there was a season of orange is the new black that was like that too, just for any references. The, circular prisons essentially where you see just like cells on top of cells on tops of cells for

like stories and multiple stories then there would be like a guard kind of in what looks like a tower its own watch tower within that prison and so they can see everyone above they can see from all angles they're all knowing which is why it translated religiously for me as well um but it the book really explains it the best. Once a person is in a situation where they've lost total control, oh, sorry, I missed the first. The major effect of the Penocticon is to induce in the inmate a sense of conscious and permanent visibility that assures the automatic functioning of power.

Once a person is in a situation where they have lost total control of the space they occupy where someone might be watching them at all times, but one can never actually be sure the condition of incarceration is fully internalized. So you are self-policing as well as policing everyone around you just because you have the fear in my case, the fear of God

and you or the fear of the panopticon in you. You have a note that you have where you were like, it's giving severance. My thing is like, and I think that is like such a perfect tie because I just started washing it. I know. I was like, it's gonna be perfect. It's iconic.

But it's like what I had trouble coming to terms with is that Innes know they're being watched. They know they only exist within the system they are allowed to exist in. And I think like that's even what the Panopticon is arguing is like there comes a point where even you logically are aware like this guard is not standing up there 24 or 7. Mm-hmm. But it's that it's that mental beating down of like, but they could be. But now could be the moment they are watching.

To your point. Mm-hmm. There is an all-seeing, all-knowing God. that is constantly watching you all the time, sees everything you're doing. Yeah. Constantly. I mean, listen, this was the fight I used to have my parents about Santa Claus when I was a kid. Did you not believe in him either?

Because I believed in him, but I had questions. Good. Because certain things didn't make sense to me. I was like, so he watches me when I go to the bathroom? Right. And my family was like, well, and I think there was just a point where my grandmother, again, black and indigenous woman who was like, everybody let it go. Yeah.

Right. Get over. Either the kid's going to do right and she's getting what she wants for Christmas. Yes. Yes. Yeah, because there's even this reference, I can't remember where it was, but there was like a reference that references elves somehow and like elf on the shelf. And I'm like, that is so panoptic on too. Like it's like the existence. This idea. Because again, it goes back to indigenous socialism would argue be good for the point of being good. Right. Yeah. It's the stoic philosophy of sympathy. You are a part of a much larger system. system. Yes, you are your individual, but you are part of the greater hive. You know, you owe it to the others to do right by yourself and by them. And then to your point, it's like the elf on the shelf

of it all that you're like, that is kind of crazy that you take your kids. Like, guess what? This elf's coming. He sees you all the time, all day, every day, every second. He goes back to Santa, reports on your behavior. It's like, or you could just literally be like, hey, here's what I'd love to see. It is time for this time of year. You're going to start asking me for gifts. I'm going to put a thing on the wall. And every time you do a good deed, I want you to write it down. So that I want you, because I want to see 60 days of kindness extended to others.

And then we, then now we're. Instead of like coercion. Yes. Instead of fear. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was, I, the whole all knowing God thing. Like, it's so effective.

And I've spoken about how. especially the older I get. And sometimes, so when you're, when you don't like your childhood, even if you don't like block it out like intentionally or like black it out, just even if you don't black it out intentionally, sometimes you just don't think about things for a while, especially if you're living in a very different way. And so now more and more when I have memories of some of the strange things that both of my parents did, not just the pastor who was my dad.

it hits me how lazy it is. And I have not been a parent parent. I have dogs and I have one who almost act like a true baby. I have not been a parent parent. However, even the elf on the shelf stuff to me, I'm like, they're like, well, it makes it easier and they listen to me. And I'm like, yeah, but is this about like taking the easiest route? Like, we're talking about parenting and like shaping your child and how they,

how safe they feel in the world. Like, yeah. I kind of feel like a lot of, especially than like really religiously strict parents are lazy. That's just what I'm trying to say. It's lazy parenting. I think that's a valid thing to say because again, like when you read a braiding sweetgrass, there is the author, and I'm blanking her name, but she tells the story of wanting to clean a lake behind her house. And she talks about how much work and how many years it takes in order to do it right. and you as the reader are at some point

are like, Robin, just give up on this stupid lake. Girl, move on. Right. And it's like she gets this house with this lake for her children to enjoy the lake and by the time she finally gets the lake clean, her kids are adults off in the world. Yeah, I think the way

Western knowledge teaches us, it was like, what was the point? Was it worth that? Right. As where what you realize that she's arguing and braiding sweetgrass is like, Indigenous wisdom tells you It was absolutely worth it. Because maybe her kids won't get to enjoy the lake,

but her kids' kids will get to enjoy it. Somebody else who maybe buys the home will get to enjoy this lake for all of its beautiful glory that it's supposed to be. At least the animals will get to enjoy the lake. Right. She'll get to enjoy the lake. You know, and I think, yeah, it's just so fascinating. Yeah.

Of like, yeah, it is lazy to a certain respect to be like, we're just going to base, be good in school off of like somebody who's watching you all the time. Yes. I used to, when I was sitting next to my parents, I used to think thoughts that I knew I shouldn't think because I was pretty sure they could read my thoughts. Like, I would periodically try to think stuff. I used to create thoughts in my head in the pool when I was swimming to see if my coach could hear me. Oh my gosh. Why do we have these strange things to comment? But it's funny when I think about indigenous roots. My riding coach had indigenous heritage. The way Holly Chester taught and coached me. entirely different than what I experienced in swim club, in school to a certain respect. Like, Holly truly was like, she had questions for you. Yeah.

I'm going to go to the house. I expect you to do X, Y, Z, while I'm gone. And then when I come back, we're going to do jumps. And sometimes you would think to yourself, I'm not going to warm up because nobody's here watching me. And then when you would fall or do something stupid, you'd be like, listen, I can't make you do anything. You're the one who suffers if you don't do what I,

I told you you need to do. Yeah. It's the thing. And you're like, and then eventually that hits you. Like, okay, nobody's watching me. But it's on me out of respect for this horse, out of respect for myself, to do this. Or I'm going to hurt us both. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And it, yeah, it gives you the meaning behind why you're doing something instead of just. Yeah, it was like, yeah, she would truly be like, the reason I want you to warm up like this is you're about to make this giant animal jump over fences. Right. He needs to warm up too. Do you want him to get hurt? Yeah.

I know you say you love this animal. Why would you not do this out of the love of this animal? And you're kind of like, oh, you've got a good point. I should probably do the thing you're telling me. Right. Yeah. Well, so the extreme of that, I think this was like, I think this might have been for me, the saddest, one of the saddest stories in the whole book.

but there's, with this penoptic idea and like self-policing yourself, not just practicing because you want to practice, but policing yourself. There was a seven-year-old girl. I tried to find pictures of her and I couldn't quite tell if I was ever actually seeing a picture of her named Nellie Robertson wrote Pratt a letter in 1881 and she was apologizing and confessing that she had committed the sin of speaking her own language. It just like makes my heart hurt ever. every time. But you know what? Also, I hear the echoes of my head.

Mm-hmm. How dare you tell us to learn another language to watch you perform? Exactly. Also, like, how many people do we listen to in our own language and don't catch the whole song? I have, I still to this day, don't know 90% of what James Brown is saying in any of his music. I like it. Like, okay. I did not know what Homeboy was saying in Gagnum style.

Love you. Yes. Yes. Great time. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Titi Me Pregunto is now, like, one of my favorite songs, and, like, some of it's just vibes, and that's okay. I'm trying to learn Spanish, but... I mean, I think about when Pristine Aguilera went through her full Spanish album era, and I was like, this is a vibe.

When her and Ricky Martin sang that duet together, it was great in English, but boy, oh, boy, in Spanish. What is it? Hot. Yes. My little tweenage self was like, this is iconic. Yes. That's what I want to do with the rest of my life. Yeah. There, I'm going to keep bringing your...

up. But in the first chapter of the Goodhouse with Tananariv her, this black woman is talking to her indigenous husband and he speaks to her in his native language and there's a state, this is in the prologue. This is what I was posting and I was like, I understand.

I get the sinner's comparisons. I get it. I get it. There's a line that says, I didn't know the words, but I understood his meaning more when he spoke in his language. And I was like, that's just beautiful. That's a beautiful way. I mean, And it's so disheartening to think of a seven-year-old. A seven-year-old.

Yeah. I'm sorry I spoke in my own language. I mean, just stepping back, I'm like, well, she must be learning something if she wrote you an entire letter. I know. I know. Yeah, the letter says I write this letter with much sorrow to tell you that I've spoken one Indian word.

I will tell you how it happened yesterday evening in the dining hall. Alice Winn talked to me and Sue. and before I knew what I was saying, I found that I had spoken one word, and I felt so sorry that I could not eat my supper, and I could not forget that Indian word. And while I was sitting at the table, the tears rolled down my cheeks,

I tried very hard only to speak English. Like, the amount of, like, internalized hate toward herself, her culture, her native language, it broke my heart on so many levels, mainly what you're saying. She's seven years old and already feels this way. but something that is very damaging in fundamentalist religion across religions, not just Christianity,

but I grew up in Christianity, is back to the whole God feeling like the man in the Panopticon. Like the need. Some of my OCD was so related to religion and thinking I had to do the right thing and I had to have justifications for why I did it and make sure that it was completely the right thing. And this impulse gets instilled in you so much that you feel so much shame when you do something

that, like, you feel like you need to report on yourself. Like, even high demand religion makes you feel that way. And I just think that's heartbreaking. I think what's so, again, it's like that moment is ultimately what even that entire chapter is, which is like, to save the man, you have to, like, beat the savage out of him. Yeah. And it's, yeah. And then we get to a point where.

where this guy Roman knows, I don't know how to pronounce his native name. But then his, it's not necessarily a whole letter, but he basically thanks Pratt and says, now we are following, I'm getting hiccup attacks, now we are following the white man's way and endeavoring to get an education and do something useful and teach the red man to avoid temptation. first I did not know anything about the white man's ways and I'm very happy now that I can be useful, polite and love God. Like that's like the next level is like he's like, oh, thank you for saving me. Yeah.

He did not save him. No. So sad. And you realize the indoctrination that has taken. And again, to that point of us saying like, you need the schools. You need the teachers. You need this army of good white teachers to come in and make them better. teach them and you know and like the the book talks about is blurring this line between school,

military and prison. Yes. You know. That's the other one military. Yeah, that you have to have those three elements in there to create this system that will break this person's roots out of them. Yes. Yeah. It's I see it. And I know I shouldn't be surprised by it anymore. I have a few of my friends and I were all like, I can't, why do I keep saying I'm surprised? But yeah, I guess as a, as a, you're surprised because it's something you wouldn't do. That's what, and that's what I can't wrap my head around. I just, I can't imagine truly believing that this person who still looks a lot like me. Like, humans look like humans for the most part unless, unless you go to the MAGA amount of face fillers.

Yeah, face fill. It was like, but for the most part, people look like people. And I can't wrap my head around getting to a point of thinking that way about other people. From a personal perspective, the lie that really got me going back to the top of what we talked about it, my aunt and my dad had having that fight. My aunt went to Hampton. So in the book, when they are talking about Samuel Chapman Armstrong, seeing what Pratt did and being like, let me found Hampton,

I immediately, I mean, I'm a shady bitch. I immediately was like, I'm giving my aunt this book for Christmas. This is her gift this year. This woman is getting this book. She's already, she's a teacher. So I was like, so it looks like I'm like, oh my God. I love a change. And I was like, but I will be making a beeline to highlight on page 113 hampton.

Yes. Did you know these are the roots of the place? Because I think what is, I think one of the things that Ewing talks about at the end of the book is how much harm both black and indigenous people are always causing to each other in this fight to remove themselves from this kind of ideology, systemic oppression that it's like, we are weirdly fighting each other in the effort to get away from this. And I think what's funny to me is I think about her pride, not pride, but like her way of talking about having to have attended Hampton is the answer and the antidote to this

crazy thing my dad and the nine did that it was like, well, if you guys had just come to Hampton were gone to these places like we did, you all wouldn't have wanted more than what you had. And when you realize, like, the roots of even this thing that black folks find so much pride in is born from, again, the subjugation of indigenous people. It's like, there might be some questions. There might be some amends to be made. There might be some conversations that need to be had. There might be some new, new, new, new majors that need to be added to the curriculum to make amends for these roots, this foundation, this kind of rotten foundation this is built on. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it was, yes, the, the book, the book really describes how, what you're

saying, Pratt was inspired by what was happening at Hampton. And so there's, uh, kind of that point that like if it was able, if we were able to make black people essentially subservient, then we can teach it here too. But speaking of systems stealing from other systems, I always think about Jim Crow inspiring some people across the Atlantic and be like, what if we built a whole fewer element? Yeah, yeah. That thing they're doing over there with Jim Crow. Yes. Huh. Yeah. What if we tried that over here? Mm-hmm.

Okay. It's like you realize very bad people are trading notes constantly. Yes. With each other and being like, ooh, I like what you did there. And it's like, yeah. Well, and to your point about the infighting, yeah. Then similarly, what that is on a global scale is, even if you take race out of it,

which is kind of hard completely to, we're more in like yelling at each other within the same class and these one percenters are learning from all the evil one percenters of the world. And is that nasty argument that Isabella Wilkerson makes is like, take race out of it. Yeah. Pass systems. Yes, exactly.

Like that's the biggest fight we're infighting on. Yes. And it's really this book I feel like is, yeah, it's the, it's the Scooby-Doo unmask. of like, hey, you've been curious, who's the villain underneath the mask? It was never what you thought it was. Here you go. And in terms of capitalism, that was what really clicked for me with this book especially. And then I think I read Eloquant Rage After It, so there was a lot that was kind of coming together. But how do we end up in late stage capitalism? It definitely makes sense that we end up here by building a country on unpaid, uh,

slave labor where clearly we were most concerned with stealing the land and not having to do any of the work ourselves to like build it up even though it wasn't even our country

to begin with. But yeah, how do we end up in late stage capitalism? Starting by forcing people into unpaid labor makes a lot of sense as a beginning point. Yep. And I think what kind of that chapter in particular of like the residential schools and all of that,

it's like you teach the kids that. Yes. And the kids teach their parents that. And it just keeps the cycle going. Yeah. There's this quote where he was like, Pratt was saying if he was going to be successful, he would need his own school and he would need to have access to pupils much early in their life. Like he knew.

Yeah. Which makes you then, again, ask the question of the education system when people are like, well, you got to put your kid in pre-K. Yeah. Okay. Right. And they got to be in kindergarten. and then in first grade and then this and all the way and you're like wow that's a lot of school

they start so early. That's so much school immediately. What? Yes. Okay. You know. Yeah. And it's a lot of school for me to that like this is an example I keep bringing up about

mine because it was just like the big moment. But that was a lot of school for me to not know about Jim Crow until I watched Madman and I was I think 18 or I was 18 or 19. Like that's a lot of school for me to. not know that was happening that recently because I all kinds of stuff. One, I'm remembering how much the war on Christmas and the war on Christians, I'm like, I'm remembering how much of that. I was like, people really were obsessed with that. But I remember there was still very much the sentiment of like, why can't black people get over this?

Like slavery was so long ago. And that was most of my education about it. And I'm like, slavery ended. But everyone wasn't even free. That's then why we have June. because not even everyone knew about it. So then we finally have not even everyone knowing about it, just slaves in Texas knowing about it. I was not aware that like Jim Crow and segregation stuff persisted for so long after the fact. And I was very much around the whole like black people need to get over it. And now I'm like, no, there was recent, very recent stuff happening.

Even if it wasn't, they don't have to get over it. Yeah. And to the Jeffersonian idea of the disappearing Indian. I was even, in my own right, existing in the space of like, oh, Grandma Mary, great Grandma Mary is gone and like, how will we

ever find our roots? Everybody's gone. Yeah. Like, McKenzie, what? Everybody's not gone. What? You could absolutely go to Florida and start going from reservations and seeing and trying to learn

and doing DNA testing and all this stuff. It's like, when I think about it to your point where it's like, oh, black people to get over. In my mind, I was like, and then we took their land. Right. Sad. It wasn't even occurring to me. Yeah. You don't think about it. Or in my head, it made total sense when people would be like,

I went to South Dakota and I went to a reservation and I'm like, wow, that's where everybody is. And I will say like a big part of my thing was, and I knew of Great Grandma Mary, it was not until the Smithsonian of Native American, which now in hindsight, I'm like, well, I was it called the Nesional Smithsonian of Native American history. But like, when that went up and there is a moment where they show this map in all the potential tribes, I remember my mom and I standing in front of it and being like, oh,

oh, wait, this, oh, this isn't just, like, for her it wasn't just, oh my God, my grandma Mary, like my, it's like, oh, there's like 10 different options from which we come. I think the joke for black people is every black person wants to be part Cherokee. Every black person with nice hair and good cheekbones are like, well, you know, I'm part Cherokee.

And I remember the joke used to be like, okay, girl, now everybody can't be part Cherokee. Right. Everybody can't be Cherokee. Everybody can't be Creole. And everybody can't be the descendant of African kings and queens. Now, come on.

Can we like try to get a little bit more knowledge to this than that? And I do think a little bit of that that ignorance is born from this idea of like indigenous people are gone. So it's like, so I, yeah, it's like, so I am one of the few carriers. I'm part Cherokee. And it's like right now. Or I think about Elizabeth Warren.

Like, God bless the woman, knowing what I know now. Yes. Why were we building your entire identity off of like one 16th? Yes. Girl. I mean, I get it. It can have a little bit of eugenicsy blood quantum feeling, but also it's, the same time, Ms. Ma'am, we could have given other people this platform and then been like,

oh, I come from a heritage of these people, but I wanted to give these folks a chance to speak on this issue. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I won't even get into the nickname certain people called her. Oh. Yeah. There, and there is, he talks about, uh, at some point, what you're saying, it's, um, I don't have it pulled up completely. Yeah. But the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to be a disintegration of the tribes. Like, that was even a part of the education was that they wanted to be like, no, you're, you guys are all the same problem. I say that with quotation marks because what these men were talking about, it as was

the Indian problem. How do we fix the Indian problem? And part of it was like, don't let them feel connected to their communities. And I think to your point of the late-saved capitalism, that ties into the idea of that was necessary to create the intellectual inferior. is like you've got to show you're at a lower class. You don't have the same advantages. You don't have the same things, the trappings of success because you are inferior.

You know, but obviously you're not going to teach it real on the res and be like, hey, you don't have nothing because we wanted everything because money is the only thing that matters and capitalism. Here you go. And again, like taking it back to Braiding Sweetgrass because I read these two books back to back. I read original sins and then Brady Sweetgrass. It's like what you realize is you have to, and this book talks about it, you have to teach a capitalist system because first you have to teach ownership. Because how can you take something from someone if they feel it belongs to no one? Yes.

You can't take land, goods, things, inventions from somebody who when you're like, who do I talk to about buying this? They're like, nobody owns it. We all own it. It's like, think about it. We mock, like, the boomers mock the hippies. Yeah. It was like, these weirdos, and they're all growing cabbages and eating them together and they got co-ops.

And, you know, you walk into a co-op and you're like, how much is this brown rice? And they're like, how much you got, man? And you're like, that is hippie nonsense. Get out of here. How much money do I have to buy the rice? Yes. You know, the concept that you would walk into a commune. And, again, as somebody who loves cults, like, communes can take a turn.

but the idea that you can walk into a space and be like, can I get some rice? And they're like, yeah, here you go. Yes. How much do I owe you? Don't just pay it forward. When you're able to make your own food and till your land, please share what you have with somebody else in need. And it's kind of like, what? And to be honest, low key, I think that's why cults take off, is that everybody misses community and collective and working together.

That all it tastes is one charismatic dude standing there talking. about everything belongs to everyone and everybody and somebody who's kind of like I'm really tired of this system goes I know quick quash how do I join this and then next thing you know though it's the rajneishi and you go from wearing a cute burnt sienna outfit to now there's dead people at the everywhere and you're like oh oh I thought we were just wearing cute outfit I know and sharing cut out of usually yes I didn't know this had a weird insidious underbelly yes yeah and the The inferiority also is, or believing in an intellectual inferiority also propels cults when we're starting to get more into cult territory than helping each other territory.

Because it's like you are, I've been talking about this a little bit, it is easier to feel like you have a Messiah, whether it's in the sky or a single person. It is easier to be like, I just have to do what this person says. I don't have to think for myself, like, I will just follow what this person says. And so even in that structure, you may end up having some of, like, you think you're intellectually inferior to this person and now they've got control over you. Because it's what we said at the top, which is to learn to ask questions, open yourself up to how much more you don't know.

And for some people, the vastness of things that you cannot make sense of. because to me ultimately that's what religion is. It's giving up surrender and going, there is some stuff so beyond my comprehension that rather than me thinking I can intellectualize myself through the concept that I am trying to put into, like when I see those pictures, when Neil deGrasse Tyson will put up those photos

of like all the universes, I say, you know, I know. I think I know enough. I'm going to go away now. I know, I barely understand this universe, Neil. I didn't need that picture of all those. And then on top of it, Neil will hit me with, and not only are those other universes, those are the past. I said, you know what?

You know what? That's enough. You broke my brain. This is not my ministry. I'm a house. Because I'm not meant to know. I don't need to know. So I'm a surrender that there are like 800 billion billion universes.

There's another version of McKenzie. I'm out. I'm a guy. I'll see myself out. But it doesn't. But I think what this book is arguing is, the colonizer mentality is I cannot be adrift in this ocean

of things I do not know so therefore to make sense of it to wrap my arms around it I am going to drop anchor and rule over this little bit everything I have and pray that nobody beyond this is ever like so what's that shore over that?

What's that? like I they're like I don't I can see my shore of ignorance I don't need anybody else to see it because if they see it they'll know I don't know anything and I think what indigenous wisdom argues is like there is so much power in not knowing and continuing to realize what you don't know you know it is hearing indigenous stories of like you know mother wolf moves the sun this way or whatever it may be and just and and you be having intellectual curiosity of like well, why? Why is it a wolf? Why is it this? And then eventually at the end of those questions, somebody will say, you know, that's a beautiful question and I don't know the answer. And hopefully we can keep being curious and find our way there. Yeah. It's like, no, what Western wisdom teaches us is like, saying, I don't know, ain't the way to control people. So you got to be like, yeah, so you have to be like, it's a wolf because it is. And don't ask any more questions. If you ask any more questions, you are ignorant and you don't trust me.

Yeah. Which is common right now. Lots of all caps, tweets. Yeah. Which is why I love the line in the book where it's like this idea of intellectual inferiority, which, you know, made me think of what's happening now. Yes. Where it's like these bad arguments that keep recurring, keep coming up is that it's like, listen, there's a new white dude every generation who gets famous talking about this. I mean, if we want to talk about why Karen Atia got, that's what the rereading this.

made me think of her. She quoted, word for word. Word for word. Charlie Church. Charlie Quirk. He's quirky. He's quirky. His exact statement saying that black women didn't have the same brain processing

power. And I read this before, all of that. When I was just re-researching, I got to that point and was like, there's a new white dude. Every generation who gets famous talking about this. I was like, oh, God, aren't there. But I think, again, like, if history doesn't repeat itself, it definitely rhymes. Also, the beauty of a book like what Eve E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. E. left a playbook of how to do it right. And to your thing earlier where you were like,

you know, for white folks, it's not communal. It's like, the first thing that happens is people are like, when you're, you're black or indigenous, people are like, what did my ancestors leave me? Yeah, you guys have so much of a connection to that. Yeah. And like, rely on it. Yeah. It's that, it's, it's, it's, it's that ability not to feel fear when his, the drumbeat starts to pick back up because you're like, somebody else has done this before. me. We did this already. Yep. Like in my mind, I'm like, Sapanky Cloud survived Andrew Jackson. Exactly. Exactly. I can do this. Ernest Green survived horrible phobis. I can do this. Yeah. Like, okay. You can't let it paralyze you. Yeah. It's like as much as I want to be frozen,

books like this remind me, yes, all of these original sins sit here. But if they were that deadly, you wouldn't be here. Yeah. Yeah. So obviously, like the fact that Ewing starts the book by being like, listen, I don't have answers. I'm just going to show you all the stepping stones other people used to create the same bullshit. Yes. And it is comforting to like at least have the knowledge that it happened before. And like you're saying, I'm going to have to find it because I'll link it. There's Joy Ann Reed said something like this and said it so beautifully. And it was it was that, which was making me have that same realization where you guys, you guys connect. to your ancestors in a way of like they made it through this. So like, yeah,

she has a really beautiful thing. I'll find, I'll find the link. I think actually, um, Kelly Garrett, who's been on the podcast a few times was who shared it. Um,

but the other thing related to, I was also thinking about gift. I was thinking about giftedness. I was been thinking about giftedness too within intellectual inferiority. Because I was thinking about the private school I grew up in is this talented and gifted. Who's gifted? IQ test. I was in eight.

gifted and talented education. Oh, I haven't even crazier for you because the book talks about IQ tests. And I remember very hoity-to-y private school and people were like, hey, Mrs. Green, we know you think your child is smart. She's not. And my mom was like, well, that's a damn lie because I'm sitting with her. And this kid is doing X, Y, Z. Things that on a traditional educational space are not brilliant. But to my mom, again.

Probably some critical thinking. Critical thinking. spatial awareness, appropriation, all these things, like, kinetic knowledge, all this stuff.

She was like, I think my kid is smart. And the school was ultimately like, well, we want to pull her back a grade. And my mom was like, absolutely not. That's a kiss of death. And it was like,

you know, it was kind of like, well, just be open to it. And she was like, no. And they were like, all right, cool. Well,

we'll send, your daughter can go get an IQ test. So my mom's like, dope. Great. Send my kid to go get an IQ test. I do the test. Score comes back.

And the response from the school was, weird daughter's so charming. She probably charmed her way into this score. You can't charm the IQ to Fjol. You can't. So then the school came back and said, hey, we've now identified. My mom was like over my dead body.

Right. Because ultimately also, this was a point in my life where my parents were like, hey, you want the donation for that new library at this part of school? I love your parents. Yeah. I'm like, one thing that cracks me about Phyllis is she exists as what's her face, Phyllis in True Beverly Hills. Like, my mom's like, keep talking.

And so then the school was like, well, here's a list of cognitive testers we want you to use. And then we'll decide if the score is real. Score was higher with the second test. Because also by that point, I was like, I think I know what the pattern, because, you know, that neurodivergence, that pattern. I can say pattern recognition is the thing. Oh, I know what you want me to say. Exactly. Okay.

Take two. Which is another form of intelligence, by the way. Literally, I would like, heatily. Healy. I figured out how to game this system. I know what you want to hear. Yes. Then they were like, oh, damn.

And so like to me what was, but again, the conversation was, oh, wow, she did. And so my mom was like, well, then put her in the gifted thing. The funny person that said no, was my grandmother. My grandmother was in town and said, mm-mm, don't put her in those gifted and talented classes. Yeah. You are setting her up for a world of pain. And my mom was like, but I want her to learn more. And she's so curious and she wants to know more and all this stuff.

And my grandmother was like, then get tutors. Do it in the house. she was like the three of us can have a book club and discuss these books together. She does not need to go to a gifted and talented English class. I promise you right now, Phyllis, it'll be the kiss of death for her curiosity and her intellect. Definitely. Yeah. It was like if he learns.

Yeah, it was like if she learns to do this, if she gets put in these places, if she's told she's one of a few who are allowed to represent black intellect, it was like, you're going to set her up for a lot of pain. Yeah, which is some of that, what I learned about then in eloquent rage, the epistemology. So it's like how we define knowledge, how we define, what we decide to educate on. And I'm glad you read this gifted part up because you're talking about how giftedness is so subjective. That's the word I'm looking for. So it's whoever is defining it, that's the definer. But this book even points out, so they're really. was, I feel like I want to get the author.

Well, while you're looking for that one, the other thing I was going to say about intelligence, and I was thinking, I was trying to see if I could see it on my bookshelf, but it's somewhere else, good Lord. But like, I'm a trained memory athlete, right? And so with, but one of the things you learn about in Josh Fours moonwalking with Einstein is he talks about how some of the original memory athletes are indigenous people. Wow. Because of the fact that indigenous folks would use the land. So what we learn in training, method of loci, is use memory palaces. They had physical ones based off the land. So the story they're trying to tell you is based on this walk we're going to take out in nature. Oh, right, that tree is part one. Oh, this riverbend is part

two of the story. Oh, bullet point three is associated with this part. And so one of the things four argues in the book is by even just damaging the land you are taking stories and knowledge from indigenous people that their method of

loci is completely thrown off when you decide we're going to put a highway over here so now or we're going to put a dam so now that changes the river that was used to tell this four part story based on the four different bends of the river yeah and that's how they kept

so much information and knowledge when we have computers. But think about it, you can't test that. And so, like, that's the other part of, like, what is gifted? What is knowledge? Now you talk to people and they're like, oh, my gosh, Kate can remember the names of everybody she meets. Okay, that's wisdom. That's knowledge.

I don't, you know, it's like, don't we all tease about when's the last time I used the Pythagorean theorem? Right. Like, but I am constantly impressed when I, I see people showing from an animal husbandry standpoint how they're using every part of an animal to feed their family. And I'm like, damn, I'm like, y'all are rich. Y'all don't have to pay supermarket prices. You are raising a cow and using every bit of it through an entire year to the Niaf cow.

Yeah. Their turn to die for this. And it's like, but I think that's the thing that this book made me think. And immediately why I picked up braiding sweetgrass as I was, I want to love. learn what gifted feels like locking into both like black heritage and indigenous wisdom. What is actual knowledge? Yes. What does that look like in practice?

Yeah. Yeah. That was what this. I can't pronounce it. It's a Diziyayama Gunu is one. It's a concept of the heart or giving from the heart. and they value in that culture that as a domain of giftedness. So this one encompasses qualities such as endurance, drive, generosity, empathy, self-sacrifice, and conviction.

And so their leaders also valued other forms of giftedness that did overlap with a mainstream white perspective, skills such as linguistic ability, the ability to recall information and reasoning to apply information in ingenious ways. but these skills were understood to be inherent in all people, not a select ordained few, and they were understood to be valuable only to the extent that they reflected an individual's desire to contribute. Here we go. To the well-being of the community. So it's like, it's a, we've let that description be subjective and be, like, gifted. Because, again, it was making me think, like, the smart kids group I was in was gifted and talented education. I am not handy.

I can't do shit. I can't hang stuff. I can't do any of that. And other people can and that's a gift. Well, what I immediately thought of is I went to a sports college filled with guys that are going to go on to the NFL. And I thought about this one thing you had football. And what hit me is I would be sitting with these guys who would tell you I'm not good

at school. I'm not smart at all. I'm not smart. They'd be like, I suck at school. and I would tutor or I would sit with them and midway through us studying I'd be like oh let me go grab some water I'd come back they'd have a playbook this big

and they'd just be sitting there and then I'd watch them and they'd be like I remember one of the guys had like hand signals he had taught himself to memorize every page and I say hey jazz you're really smart how do you memorize this whole thing he was like oh it's just what I do and I was like dude

you were so smart I'm not smart I'm just good at football my friend it has a level of intellect stuff I can't memorize this how do you not only do you know where you need to be on the field you know everybody else's

position place where they're going yes yes yes yes you're smart man yes no I'm not no chas you're smart really yeah buddy I want you to look at the binder

that holds your place Now look at the size of this book over here. Right. Your notes in it. Yes. My man, you learned this much material. And he was like, well, and I said, what is this for the year? He goes, no, it's for next weekend's game against St. Louis.

Chas, my friend. You get a new one of these every single week and you learn it. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's what I do. Buddy, regardless of what this notebook tells you over here and what these teachers tell you, I'm going to tell you right now my man sees, degrees, but don't ever let somebody tell you that you're stupid. Because you don't learn all of that and then practice it with your physical body and follow it through if you're a dumb dumb. Right. I feel like it speaks to how much of the education system still is memorization is like

the other part too. Like, there's a difference between that and like really having knowledge that like I constantly, I constantly joke from what I know of memory. athletics. I'm like, when I have a child, I'm going to teach the memory training. Yes. And be like, here's what you're going to do. You're going to use memory training on all this stuff in academia. It's all it's doing for my part. So you can just speed run, just speed run your way through this. And then you can really engage with intellectual curiosity over here. Like I think about that all the time where it's like the first time somebody said like, oh, you can learn language using memory techniques. You can do this. It's all just memory

techniques. The first time my memory coach said to me, chess grandmasters, it's not about knowing chess. It's about memorizing the patterns of winning chess moves. Yeah. I said, say what now? Same thing. He said, you want to know how you solve a Rubik's cube? Pattern recognition. It's memorization. You're not, I don't actually know how to solve a Rubik's cube, but I do know how to look at this particular layout and get back. And I memorized that how to get back to it set. And that blew my mind. in terms of what knowledge is. Because then all of a sudden I zoomed in on my grandmother,

teaching me, reviewing multiplication with me while I was digging, helping her in her garden. So then when I'm sitting in a test and I can't recall what seven times seven, I remember, oh, I snapped these peas and I said 49. Yeah. You know, or layers of memory. Yeah, it was her saying, okay, you got to memorize all the presidents. It was, okay, Washington's at the front door.

Oh, okay. Second one, standing on the steps. Now we're going to go into the living room. Yeah. Third one's at the piano. Fourth one's over here on the chaise lounge sitting across from him as fifth. Yeah. And you're like, oh.

So then you're sitting in the test and the teacher's like, all right, who's the 17th president? And I'm sitting here walking through my house in my head. So cool. Yeah. But when you realize this idea of giftedness, I think about my childhood friend who was like in the gifted fifth grade class. Yeah. And she would just, and every time I'd be like, God, Maitre, you're so smart. She'd be like, I'm just good at memorizing what's on the page.

That was how I felt great, because I got a lot of praise for being like very smart. the reason I say it with that intonation is I remember even still even in high school, middle school, high school still, like, there were a lot of bell curves used once you're into high school for whatever and I would set the curve a lot and sometimes that would also piss people off because what people didn't know, one, I was always like, all I have to do is read this a bunch the night before and it's easy for me. Like, I didn't see how, like, why am I getting praise for that when it's harder for other people to get the knowledge into their mind and, like, they're having to work harder to learn? Like, this just feels like it just happens for me. And, like, I don't know what to do about that. But those are growing up now. The two things that I'm always so honored is if people don't know that I'm, or couldn't tell that I was a pastor's kid. And if people are shocked to find out that my IQ is high.

because I was just like none of this matters and I hate how those topics are used against other people Well what I immediately think of on the flip side is and now having to read this book I mean truly it's like my marginalia is filled with some dramatic stories

I put in here that I'm like Oh this is like that time they made my friend Taylor Run up and down the hallway that time Like and I think what's on the flip side for me is as somebody who was not good or honestly now reading this book, I'm like, was I not good or was I just not following the system? But I now take so much shock when people are like, God, you're so smart.

You're just the inverse. Yeah. What? What? And people are like, God, you're just so, you know so much. You have so many questions. And I'm like, I used to get in so much trouble for continuing to ask questions. Right.

And being like, well, why do we do it this way? It wasn't until I got to college. when all of a sudden you have professors, you know, in those 200, 300, 400 level classes. They're passionate about their topic. And also, they don't want to be bored with grading papers.

So they're like, they're like, I would love to see a creative rap inspired by, I would love to see this. And I remember, then I got to college and all of a sudden,

I'm in a vampire English class. I'm like, cool. Let's go, baby. Yes. I hate, or, you know, I remember the first time

I wrote a paper, this is so stupid. When I went to the neurodivergent school, I remember the English teacher was like, what is the topic that everybody wants to write on? You can write whatever you want. It just has to be on classic literature. And I wrote about how the Bronte sisters are some of the worst writers in the world. But the only reason they get by is because they are trading off their name.

And basically I wrote a paper on early Nepo siblings. And I was like, they're not even good. They just, one of them wrote a book that people read. And then the other two follows... They talk shit about her too. It's juicy. And it was like, and it was a whole thing. It was inspired by the fact that I hated Jane Eyre. And I had thought in traditional school spaces, because I couldn't read Jane Eyre, I was stupid.

But then Harry Potter happened. And I was like, wait a second. I'm reading these books in a night. These are like a thousand pages. Way longer than Jane Eyre. Jane Eyre sucks. And that was my whole paper. And that teacher at that neurodivergent school was like,

excellent work, McKenzie. Oh, I love that. So I'm not stupid. And she was like, no, this is really well researched. This is really well thought out. But I will end my biching and moaning with this one piece that came to me. Oh, for it. When I was in school, in the very traditional hoity-to-to-dy private girl school,

we were supposed to write freshman-turn papers. Everybody wrote theirs on everything from like, Amelia Earhart. Well, you can imagine. I wrote my freshman term paper on how the fall of Constantinople and the end of the of the Silk Road led to the modern

slave trade. Like, I'm tackling the important shit. Well, because that was what was, because the whole time I had been asked myself, I can start trading people. I totally. But we just did this whole unit on the Silk Road. Yeah. How did we get to trading people?

And so I wrote that paper. Now having to read Eve Ewing's book, I said, girl, you set yourself up for failure. You went to the system built off of this and said, I have the evidence. I am holding the smoking gun. And I'm like, so no wonder that paper got a C. And I would later give that paper to my now sister-in-law, my brother's wife, who was a professor, she's still a professor at University of Chicago, or no, at Northwestern. And I gave it to my brother. I took my name off of it. And I said, hey, I came across this paper. Can you guys tell me if this is any good? And my brother was like, oh, I would give this like an A.

And Tessie, my sister-in-law was like, I mean, honestly, I'm. I mean, honestly, I I think I'd be with Adam. I'd go, A, where'd you find this? And I said, I wrote it for my freshman class. And I got a C plus on it. And my brother was just kind of like, uh-oh. And then from there I went on to the school for neurodivergent people. Yeah, which definitely a better experience at least there.

Not that it's a birthday. And then I ended at Catholic school and that sucker was wild. I loved it. I mean, that's a story for another day. I said, what? To your point of the Panopticon, people were like, I can't do that. God is watching. I said, where?

Yes. Where is he? He is here in our junior year gym class? He cares about gym class? This news to me. Oh, yes, he does. We'll have to break that down another day because I said, what? Yeah.

That's very much what I grew. I was sure that God knew absolutely everything I did. Even my thoughts, there's that Bible verse from Jesus where he's like, even if you look at your brother with anger, it's as if you've murdered him in reality, that was used so often to be like, you better be keeping your thoughts pure, too. So I would like freak out if I had angry thoughts. I'm like, I'm basically a murderer. Meanwhile, my grandmother, if I encountered people that were mean to me, she would just go, listen, we're called to do on to others as we do onto ourselves. So, honey, they just don't like themselves. And I'd be like, and that was my takeaway. And that's why then later, Rupert will get. And it's true. That's like,

it's hurt people, hurt people is true. Yeah. And that's kind of, and, And the, and jokingly, like, you could summarize a lot of what Ewing says in this book, which is ultimately, these are hurt people grasping for power. Mm-hmm. And that, anyway they can get it. And jealousy to that, I mean, to, again, go listen to our sinners episode if you want to talk about that. But the jealousy, too. Like, actually, if you guys are calling them inferior, you probably feel inferior. Yeah.

The call is coming from inside the house. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we could probably talk for three more hours. We really could. You know you and I could do this all day. We love this kind of stuff. But I feel like this was a good start, especially for people a little bit new to this. Yeah. And, you know, I'm already going to force you to let me come back and talk about that come Super Bowl season because I want to talk about football. We have to. Everyone needs to go watch him. Leave. Everybody. If you like horror, even just tangentially, don't expect to watch a football movie. I guess there were some people who did not know there were horror. elements. Yeah, was shocking. I don't even know how, like, even if you didn't watch the trailer, how did the poster or not tell it? I don't know either. Again, and I'm like, maybe that's because I

was around sports too much. And I will also say for fellow sports lovers, get ready to go see this and feel called out. Yeah, a little bit. Yes. As someone who is obsessed with fantasy football there for a while, I have to agree. Yeah. Also, go follow McKinsey's substack. We've mentioned it a couple times. Oh my God. And I'll put that in the notes. But she loves, as you can tell, language, words, books, all the things we love here. So yeah. I'm going to go hear her perspective too. I'm a yappy person. And so I'm, it's all started with my sociolinguistics journey this year because I'm like,

I love to run my mouth. What are the implications of that? Same.