Bookwild - Cosmic Horror and a Crime Procedural: CJ Leede's Headlights

Episode Date: June 9, 2026

This week, I talk with CJ Leede about her new horror novel Headlights! Listen to hear about: How CJ originally planned to become a medieval historian, but after a professor helped her discover storytelling was what she wanted to pursue. How Headlights began with the idea of people waking up on the side of a highway wearing the skin of strangers, and evolved into a story about grief, mortality, family legacy, and the search for meaning. Why Leede treats setting as a character, using Colorado's beauty, danger, wildlife, and landscapes as metaphors for the novel's larger themes about life, death, and the unknown. How the novel contains investigative thriller and horror elements, but is really a book about confronting sadness, loss, and the things we cannot outrun within ourselves. Why horror can uniquely encompass mysteries, romance, literary fiction, supernatural stories, social commentary, and psychological explorations, making it one of the broadest and most creative genres available. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with CJ Lead about her doist horror book headlights. This one is really fantastic if you are a thriller or crime fiction lover and you think sometimes, like, I wish I could dabble in horror a little bit, but I don't know where I could dabble. This one follows an FBI agent who thinks that he's done, thinks that he's going to move away. And then people start appearing on the road side covered in the skin of other people. people. They don't remember how they're wearing the skin of deceased people and they don't feel like they've murdered anyone. And this is something from the FBI agent's past that he thought he had kind of outrun, but now it's happening again and he's pulled back into it. So it absolutely

has horror elements, but it also has kind of like the structure and feel of like a crime procedural. So if you've ever just kind of wanted to dabble a little bit in horror, but you like those other I think this one is really great for you. I talk with CJ about what draws her to writing horror, how her ideas come to her, how she ends up structuring them, and the fun you can have in kind of like weird girl lit as well. So that being said, let's hear from CJ. Well, I am very excited to talk about headlights because there's a lot to talk about and a lot to not talk about because we won't get into spoilers. But I always love getting to know the authors a little bit first before we dive right in. So to start off, what was your journey to writing in general? Like, did you always

know? How did that come about for you? I kind of stumbled into writing in my early 20s. I was, I thought I was going to be a career medievalist. Wow. And, um, Yeah, I did medieval studies in undergrad and I wanted to be a historian and an academic. And that's what I thought I was going to do with my life. And my plan was sort of like take a year off after undergrad and live because I was like, I'm going to spend the rest of my 20s in libraries by choice. But I went and saved a bunch of money and then I was going to go on this like big hike. And when I, my last semester in undergrad, I I had an open elective. I took a writing class. I wrote, I didn't think too much of it. I thought it was fun, you know, graduated, moved on. And as I was like working these jobs and saving some money,

I got an email from my professor who said that he had forwarded my pages to his agent and editor. And they reached out and they wanted a book or they wanted to read something. And I was like, I don't know how to do that. So I wrote a book. book really fast. It was really bad because I didn't know how to write a book and I wrote it in like a month. Yeah. And, you know, they were like, one of them was like no. And one of them was like, yes, but, you know, maybe like make it a lot better. And I thought that was a no at the time. And time went on and I kind of like stuck to my plan. But I kept thinking about how fun it was to work on that book. And I couldn't shake it. And I remember I was on my hike and another hiker asked, well,

do you do? And like the words that came out of my mouth where I think I want to be a writer. And since I had planned to go back to school anyway, nobody needs to go to school to be a writer at all. But I love school and I was going to go back anyway. And I thought, well, what if I just apply for writing programs? And I had to apply three times before I got in. But then I got into Columbia and I went there. And that's where I discovered I was a horror writer. So it was like, everything was sort of like, saying yes to things and then seeing where it all led and I'm so grateful. That's, yeah, that is like you don't, you don't typically have like someone who's like, hey, can you write a book for us?

It doesn't tend to happen. You just can't say no to that, right? Yeah. And then, you know, they were like, oh, God, this is not it. Yes. And they were right. But it's, it's, things like that. I think sometimes we just got to like, you know, like, follow.

the tide and can lead us to cool places. Right, especially if you're mildly interested. Like, if it sounds terrible, obviously, you don't have to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. But yeah, that's, that's really cool. So you say you kind of learned then, like, pretty quickly at Columbia that you're a horror writer. So did you love reading horror before this? Or like, do you know what drew you to horror? It was the same thing. It was like, I thought, I thought what I had written was like YA just because that's what I was reading for fun when I wasn't like doing schoolwork. And so I thought I'd written like dystopian YA. I actually got into, I almost went to a YA and children's writing program, which is crazy to think about how different things would have been.

But I went to this adult, you know, literary fiction program and I was handing in stories that I thought were genre fiction, but like, but like fantasy. And my professor said, So you're a horror writer. And I was like, no, no, I don't, I don't read that stuff. Like, I've never read like a Stephen King. Like, I don't do any of that. And he was like, maybe you should because he was like everything you've handed in was a horror story. Oh my gosh.

So I do it was crazy. So then I went and started reading Stephen King and everybody else. And I kind of realized, too, what had been my favorite book at the time still is, is was a library at Mount Char, which I thought was like, I was like, that's a family. fantasy novel, but it's like, that's also shelved as horror. And there was this big crossover. So, yeah, it turned out that's what I wanted. I don't know, just saying yes. Yeah. It's, it's always fascinating to the whole genre question, because there's obviously ways where it's useful and helpful. Yeah, yeah. Like, even more, I think we even are seeing more like genre mashup. So like, I, one of my, when you were saying, you thought it was fantasy, one of my favorite, like,

horror is also like fantasy and it's an academy for liars by oh yeah yeah yeah so good i loved that one so much but it has both well you even have like dark academia fantastical elements because there's dark mad psychological magic i'm just basically telling everyone everything and then there are very much horror elements like some very distinct like bloody moments that i remember and so i think they're useful for readers, but it's like, so many stories can be so many things as well, especially more lately, I feel like. Yeah. And horror especially is so, like, welcoming to all genre crossovers and mashups. And I think that's like one of the great joys to me. And I've tried to do three very different types of horror novels. And I want to keep playing because like it's so amazing that we're

the genre that's this huge umbrella term for like so many things and we this is we have like the biggest freaking sandbox yeah you know yeah i agree because you can have like you can have the supernatural element you can have psychological ones i actually just did a post about this because of the movies actually so like um obsession back rooms yeah hope them is god is are all horror films and then obsession and then back rooms came out and now there's like I think it's I get annoyed by it every single time there it turns into this like competition of like you thought that was scary and like all this like competing and so I was like you know what I'm tired of this I'll always make a post about it so I did a whole post like breaking down how many different

subgenres there are in horror cool and then if you understand the subgenres you might understand why like maybe it wasn't terrifying for you but it was really scary for someone else and like it's just like so many different things but it always makes me think of humor specifically. It's just so subjective, like what's going to scare you too. Yeah. And also what you want out of a story, right? Like, I don't personally, I don't think for me, like, the scares are the most important part. Like, I just want to feel like I'm, I'm taken on a journey that is surprising and, and, you know, like, and it makes me feel alive. That's all I care about, you know? And there's, because even within horror, there's just like sort of like low grade spooky stuff that's also awesome and I you know yeah that's so

interesting it's an interesting metric I know I know and I think again kind of similar to talking about genres I think it has so much to do with the marketing of movies and so like the marketing they're like I remember this happened last year with a or was that two years ago but like long legs and there was something else and long legs was saying like the scariest movie in years and like all their marketing and i understand why marketing feels like they need to do that but like it it's not always useful either actually where i've landed with it basically well and i have no idea how it works with movies but like you know as an author we have almost nothing to do with how our books are marketing so it's always a wild thing where you're like, oh, okay. Yeah, like, mostly I agree, but I don't know, you know, and it's, it's

amazing to how much, you know, like, there are like full departments of people who, who sort of have, like, whatever their data is and make these decisions. And it's always shifting and everybody loves these, like, micro subcategories, you know, which is great, too. You know, we're not thinking about it or I'm not thinking about it when I'm writing. I'm not like, oh, this is going to be this exact, like, niche thing. So it's fascinating. Yeah. It's reminding me. I had a conversation with my friend, John Fram, and when he wrote No Road, well, I interviewed him about No Road Home, and I loves that book so much. But when I asked him, kind of the same question, like, what draws you to horror? He's like, I just write the idea that comes to me. And then I turn it in and somebody else tells me

which genre it is. So kind of like you're saying, like there are people who clearly have like data that leads them to decide how to market and classify a book basically. Yeah. And yeah, then it's up to readers, I think, to like maybe get into some of the like details in terms of like recommending it to people maybe might be kind of where it can happen. But he as well, kind of just that he wrote and someone told him, you just wrote. So what will? was how did your writing process develop once you were like, oh, I am a writer? Like, do you plot? Do you follow the vibes? How did it all kind of come together for you? Or is it different every book? It's different every book. But so the first, the first book I had ever worked on was what

eventually became my second book out, American Rapture. It didn't, it wasn't called that originally. And, you know, that went from being in my mind like the Stobey. B&YA to fully just like a horror novel. You know, like a sort of like religious apocalyptic virus zombie outbreak kind of thing. But when I was in grad school, I wrote another book which has never seen the light of day, which is my, I might bring it back one day, but it's a vampire trucker novel and it's huge and it's sprawling and it like goes all across America. and I

probably wrote both of those books from page one start over I don't know like anywhere from like seven to 12 times both of them like complete start over because I was learning

you know and I was like how do you there are so many decisions that go into how to tell a story it's kind of crazy like even whose perspective POV tense where you drop the reader in

what you should show and what you don't show. Like there is there are, it's like millions of decisions. And early on, I just, I didn't know how to do it. And sometimes still I don't know how to do it. Like headlights, I had to start over a number of times. And this book I'm working on now, I just, I'm not scared of a, of a blank page, you know, because everything's still in your head. And it's just about getting it right. And you know when it clicks. So I always plot heavily. like really heavily, many pages of plotting. And inevitably, when I start writing, all of it changes and then I re-plot and then I get

back to writing and then I replot. And it's like that. Like I just kind of until I'm like, oh, yes. And kind of discover what exactly the book, you know, kind of wants to be. So yeah, it's like, it's always, it's just this totally insane. like rolling revisions a little bit yeah and to me i don't ever want this to sound like in any way like self-aggrandizing but to me writing a book feels like this sort of like mystical alchemical like magical experience where like i imagine like a hatch opening in the top of

my head and then like yeah this thing going through my fingers you know and like coming out and to me to write a book, I have to feel like I'm doing something that matters and that I can like offer to the world. And so that's all part of it too. If I'm not feeling that I have to start over. Yeah, that makes sense. So what was the inspiration for headlights? Like what, what kind of got you going on that one? The first, this image kind of dropped in a my head when I was walking one day of these people waking up on the side of the highway wearing the skin of someone they'd never met allegedly and with no memory of how they got there and I was like oh interesting you know sort of like huh all right and then this guy started

to emerge in my mind and I just couldn't let him go everybody was like don't write a male protagonist, you know, this is, don't do an investigative thriller. This isn't really your thing. Like, you know, we need more, speaking of like, you know, categories. It's like, yeah, people being like, no, you write Femmgore, you write weird girl horror, you write feminist horror. And I'm like, well, first of all, all my books are going to be feminist because I'm feminist. Like, it's like, I can't imagine it would ever not be that. Just having a man doesn't make it. Yeah, like, 100%. And I'm always going to have like strong female characters. But, Yeah. I just, it just was his story to me. And he just sort of appeared. And then this book, what's in the book and my life at the time all kind of felt like, like I was really struggling with grief a lot and a lot. And this question of like, where do our loved ones go when they're gone? And that felt to me kind of like stumbling around. Like someone had turned the lights off in my life.

And I was just stumbling around in the dark suddenly and just, I just saw these characters. Like, they're sort of like lights shining. And I just followed them. And I, it was like, I don't know. It felt like they were just telling me where they needed to go, which ultimately, like, kind of told me where I needed to go in my life. And it really, this book kind of saved me in a lot of ways. Wow. But it's a strange book.

It's a book that's like stumbling around in the dark, looking. for like, you know, like, it's a weird one. And this, this mortal experience is weird and sort of nonlinear and confusing. And so all of that's what this was to me. Yeah. It's interesting that you said like the characters were even like kind of shining and you're following them because that ends up being so much of the like, uh, without giving anything away like his mom calls him her shining boy. Yeah. Obviously the title's headlights. There are multiple pivotal scenes that have headlights in them. So it is interesting that like it even kind of like felt that you were kind of just like

following the light to write it as well. The other thing you mentioned though is grief and like those heavier feelings. And I think there are plenty of genres that I handle that. Like you can you can have. Yeah. That's dealing with grief now too. But there are I feel like there's kind of more that you. can play with in horror since it doesn't all have to be completely like quote unquote realistic.

Yeah. So what was it kind of like using horror to explore like themes like grief? Well, I think the I was kind of stilted when I started the book because I thought I was writing this investigative thriller. And at one point my editor was like, you're a horror writer. You don't have to just do this. Like, you can do anything. There's no rules.

So, like, suddenly I thought, oh, I can do anything. And the book already very explicitly interacts with The Shining. And it's a Colorado horror novel. And I was like, oh, there's this whole element I haven't played with, which is this question of like, are there ghosts? You know, and that's not. That's like, that's like early. It's like, are there? And do we?

and this question of like where do our loved ones go like that all of it felt the same and so it actually it's interesting in terms of being like plausible you're like well when it comes to death like nothing is implausible because it's the one thing we all share and it's the one thing none of us can definitively answer and it's like to me that's so significant that there is like we really don't totally understand this and it's the most important thing in a lot of ways of our existence. And so that I just couldn't, I just couldn't like look away from it. But yeah, horror opened it up. And I was like, oh, I can really explore like potentialities here. Yes. Yeah, that's why I wanted to say like quote unquote unreal or not. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, I agree. We don't,

we don't know. So it's like you can be just thinking like, there. are people who have had experiences with ghosts yeah um and the other thing that kind of it always reminds me of too though is like when when there's like um native american folklore in horror we call it like native american folklore or um myth or mythology like we'll call it their mythology but we don't call it mythology when there's like the quote unquote traditional like christian or capital Catholic stuff. Yeah. Named into stories too. So I think that's like kind of part of that same conversation where it's like, who are we to decide what's considered like mythology and folklore and like quote unquote real life or real religion or spirituality or any of that.

So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there, yeah. Totally. No, no. You're just you're right. Yeah. The, um, the settings in your books. I have not read your other to you. I need to know. But when I was like reading like what other people love about your books is that the settings are super super important. And like you're saying this one very much feels, not feels, it is a Colorado story. And like very much of that is is in there. For anyone who's listening, you did a really cool post too that kind of shows some of those locations within the book. So what is it like building the setting essentially as a character? So like my big project in general is kind of writing America kind of like place by place and creating this kind of like patchwork narrative version of it like my version. And I live on the road right now. I've lived on the road in the past. And I think while we have a lot, it's like an understatement, it's the biggest understatement. We have so many issues here.

And it's unresolved and ongoing and very difficult. and also there is, there are things to celebrate, and there are things that are unique and amazing about it here. And I think those things are worth looking at. Like they always say, there's like an ism that goes around on the internet that's like if you want to hate America, watch the news, and if you want to love America, get in your car. And that's like very much been my experience.

And so I think I'm so fascinated by these sort of like microcosmic environments and cultures and inherited. wisdom and architecture and art and music and food and all these things. But then the fact that we are all part of this greater like American framework is crazy to me. And even what that means and the homogeneity of our country. And all of it is fascinating. So that's kind of like what really lights me up. And with Colorado, each each environment gives such a different feeling to me. So it is such a cool way to get to reflect what's happening with the characters in the environment and vice versa. And I think that's kind of true of place that it kind of makes us who we are. And also,

we tend to as humans, really try to shape our environment to exactly what we want it to be, which is a lot of what this book is about as well. And so to me, Colorado was the landscape that for me growing up, I had family there, but I didn't live there myself. But I went all the time. And I felt like it kind of scared me. Like we went in winter. I wasn't into winter sports. They scared me too much. And it was literally.

Yeah. And it was like literally cold. And in my mind, it was kind of like vibe wise, a little cold too. But then people visit from all over the world. And John Denver wrote Rocky Mountain High. And there are these wildflower blooms. And there is this sort of like total. gentleness to it on the flip side and this like sort of feeling of both like it's the most beautiful

peaceful lovely place and it's also sort of like so formidable and foreboding and terrifying that that also felt to me like so reflective of like this sort of life death thing like this mortality thing is so scary and so beautiful and I'd had the experience as a kid of driving at night on on like the really winding mountain roads in Colorado with the snow falling. And you can only see as far as your headlights in front of your car. And everything beyond that is just this like total mystery. And you don't know if a truck is coming the other way or where the cliff is going to end or if the snow's going to start falling harder.

And to me, that just felt like the perfect metaphor for what we're doing here, which is like we can only see so much. And everything else is kind of a guess and we're doing our best. Yeah, totally. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. With Daniel specifically, he is obviously like dealing with some trauma from the past. Well, trauma at multiple phases of his life. I think you even, there's a part where he kind of talks about like it isn't just one big trauma that we have. Like we do accumulate kind of multiple over time. And. that kind of leads him toward really wanting to figure out what happened and also he kind of tried to figure out what happened previously and then these I mean it's such a the premise is like the second you read like that people are showing up wearing other people's skin you're like okay I need and then he kind of tries to think like I'm gonna I'm gonna get away from this place and that's

going to make me feel better. Yeah. And that was kind of reminding me of the like no matter where you go, there you are. Like he doesn't end up really leaving physically. Um, but was that kind of also where you were going with it? Like he kind of can't run away from the things that happened. Yeah. And I think I, you know, uh, in terms of like my life when I was writing it, that's how I felt. You know, I felt like I would do anything to get away from. I mean, in some ways, it's what I did. Like I lost a ton of people for like a and dogs over this like 10 year period out of nowhere. And it was crazy because before that I'd been extremely lucky and I really hadn't lost anyone in my early life. And so it felt like my life went from like no death to like all death. And my first two books were

really like, you know, my first two books in many ways were kind of the first one was totally escapeist for me. It was like, I just need to feel, I need to get this, like, they were like the big feeling books. Like, let me just like get rid of my anger and say what I don't like and sort of like have big feelings and and right crazy sex scenes and, you know, like they were, they were like all of those sort of like externalizations of things, like not focusing on like what was underneath. And after I did them, even though they both talk about very real things. And the first one's about grief. The second one's really about, like, religion.

But this one, I was sort of left with this, like, hollowed out feeling of, like, now what? And I realized I was like, oh, I'm sad. And I'm sad. And I don't want to be, you know, it was more fun to be angry. And in Dignment. It's more empowering. It's more empowering. But at a certain point, you cannot run away from yourself.

and trying to is what stops you from being able to move forward, I think. Or that was kind of what I came to. And so this book was me having to face myself. And it was Daniel having to face himself and some other characters. And that is that it's like that's kind of the only thing that'll like give us a future and freedom and hope. Right. Yeah. I am known to prefer anger over sadness.

I think a lot of people do, but also I am very comfortable in anger and I'm very uncomfortable in like really connecting to how sad I am about something. Yeah. Yeah, I completely get that. It's just, and like I said, it feels more activating and more empowering to be angry and sadness. You're like, oh, I have to just sit with this. Yeah. It's almost like sadness you just have to accept. It's, you know, you can't, there's no, there's no action item. It's like, it's literally just like, oh, fuck, it's here. It's not going away. Yeah, yeah.

So it's, and it's such a part of this life that we just, you know, so. Yeah, it is. So I wrote a lot of pages about it. Yeah. Kind of along like the mental health lines, too. It was reminding me, reminded me of a. couple things actually there was a book brian freeman wrote called the ursulina which is so good um and then there's another one called the hunter's daughter and i am so her name is nicole i have it back there

uh nicola solvenic for anyone who's interested in that but it has the the hunter's daughter has to do with a um a woman who's now a police officer um but her dad is a notorious serial killer who's been jail and then copycat killings start happening so you can kind of already see where like there's like comp similarities there but what was so like a huge part of the tension of that book and I think part of why it was really memorable for me is she's also so scared because she is genetically linked to this man who is a terrible man so there's so much fear of being like her parent and like what part of that is lurking inside me and that obviously is happening for Daniel we learned pretty early on that his dad was not a great guy.

And so that's kind of always there for him too where he's like kind of feeling like what am I capable of. Yeah. So was that something like that was there for you from the beginning or did you kind of like notice that as you like quote unquote got to know him? Well, I think it was the sort of premise and set up with his dad was always there. But when I started like my kind of style is I always interact with a lot of like existing books and music and so and and and sort of like real life places and so with this book i did a deep dive

into john denver's life and obviously the shining was the big part of this book and it was all of it felt to me like suddenly a lot of these stories had to do with fathers and sons and with this question of sort of like what is death what is the purpose of being here what is our purpose you know Like it's the book is asking a million questions, but to me, they're all kind of just like one question. And this, this thing of like, what's our lineage? Like, what did we inherit? What are we leaving behind? You know, what did, who are we in relation to those that came before us?

It's the same thing with the ghost thing. It's like they go before we do. You know, they come before we do. And all of these felt like one question to me, which is just like. like, what is all this? You know, even though it's like 50 questions. So yeah, I think his relationship to his dad and his self and this question of like, what do we inherit and what do we pass on was all part of it.

Yeah. Well, you kind of mentioned what my next question was. There's a heavy influence of John Denver's music. There's music like very strongly linked to his memories, which is something I think a lot of us experience. Sometimes you hear a song and you're like, oh, that reminds me. we have a very specific time in life. And it even can, I mean, there are some songs like that for me.

It even can get, like a song can get all tied up with a trauma. Yeah. Especially. And so then it really stands out to you or to the person experiencing it. So what was, it sounds like you researched John Denver and then maybe that kind of led to the father son dynamic as well. But like what made you want to include him and his music? Rocky Mountain High was the big thing.

And when I was a kid, I was told that John Denver was like one of the like famous Colorado people, you know, that he chose to live there. He wasn't from there, but he chose the name Denver. And he, his version of Colorado really stuck with me as a kid just from my parents didn't even really listen to him. But, you know, like you can't throw a stick without hitting a speaker playing Take Me Home Country Road. or whatever, like any of his leaving on a jet plane. Like, they're just sort of such a part of our environment. But to me, they showed this sort of like gentle version of Colorado that I felt like I wasn't able to access.

And so that was why. And then once I started reading about him and like, he's just like fascinating. And his music is very, to me, it's so lovely and haunting. And he also was like a big environmental. advocate and that's a lot of this book too and it just all I don't know these things start to click in weird ways and you're just like okay yeah it was going to be about John Denver of course even though I never really listened to him before yeah that makes sense like I do think there are a lot of writers who like they're kind of just like following random interests and then all of a sudden you like

feel the connections between stuff and run with it. Yeah. And it probably is more likely something like we're just good as humans that like making connections where there may or may not be any. But again, I like to think of it as this sort of like almost like mystical process. It's like some things like putting a song in front of me because that has to be part of it or whatever the thing is. Yeah. Well, you mentioned the environmentalism as well. this one specifically kind of talks about like when the wolf population has just been like so depleted. It does have effects on all kinds of other things. But there's also a section where you are talking about how basically when an apex predator is eliminated, it kind of leaves a void.

Like who's going to step into that. And it's like very ominous and feels very thematic to the. the story itself, even though it's kind of also about, you know, like, uh, animal populations in general. So what was that? Did you know that that was kind of going to be there? Or is that another thing where like once you started, uh, researching Colorado, you kind of noticed it. I, well, I had been in Colorado a lot before starting this book. And the wolf conversation is a huge one. Like it's a main, it's a big issue in Colorado. Because we, The Wolfrey introductions, you know, it's really like it was California and the West Coast and then Colorado was second in the U.S.

I don't know if they've done up in Montana, Wyoming. But it's a big conversation. And then it becomes this thing of like ranchers versus environmentalists. And then this thing of, you know, it becomes extremely politicized. And then it becomes this very much us versus them thing. And all of it is just like. you know, I started to look around and think like, do humans matter more than everything else that lives here? And I think that's a, that's a question that's all throughout the book. And, and I put forth what I think about that. But again, it's like we, we have this sort of like one wild and precious life, maybe, maybe more. I don't know. Yeah. But we all get to choose our perspective on

things but to me a landscape that is so clearly so interconnected like a place like Colorado you know aspen trees being like an entire aspen tree grove is one tree

it's those are branches you know that we can see it's so connected and the trees get depleted when you take out the keystone species and then everything that relies on the trees and every it's just this like cascade effect and Denver is constantly developing land constantly adding new housing developments so all of this felt like definitely the conversation with like

the character work um so it's like Daniel I mean this happens in a lot of books where like the external plot is also helping drive like the internal like a kind of transformation within Daniel. So was that, did you kind of know the journey you wanted him to go on? And, and how did you kind of balance? Like you're saying, this has procedural elements. It has horror elements. And then also like his character growth. Well, I think, you know, definitely I thought I had to work within sort of set rules at first and then realized I didn't. That was huge. But aside from that, I always kind of knew what his journey like needed to be. But I didn't totally know what was going to get in there.

And so it was, it was fun figuring that out. I knew there was going to be a connection point with another person. And there was another thing that ended up coming that kind of surprised me. But I thought, oh, of course, this is it. And so that was really cool. And, yeah, it's like the hardest book to talk about without spoiling. Like, I don't know why I did this to myself. Way harder than my others.

This one, yeah, it's a weird book. Yeah, there's a lot that starts changing kind of, or you get a lot of, a lot of information like 20% on because it's five, five or six parts, right? Yeah. And I would just say if you're someone who is like, oh, I love knowing exactly what a book is going to be, like this probably won't be it for you. Like this, I think this is a book that if you want to go into something and be just totally open-minded and say like where is this going to carry me that that's this book it's it's a weird book and

frankly i would petition for more weird books because oh yes i think we're i think there's this feeling that if a book is not what you expect it to be there's like a disappointment and a sort of like i didn't like that it wasn't what i expected it to be but it's like well shouldn't that be the greatest joy if it surprises you you know yes that's why honestly like I really don't watch a lot of movie trailers like in their entirety because it says too much. Like yeah. I, and it's a whole rant I could go on. There's like second screen viewers is like a whole thing that's changing how stories on TV and movies especially.

But I'm like I don't need to know. I don't need to know much about like second and third act. Yeah. And also I feel like I can tell you can tell. if a movie is going to be your vibe in general. So that's how I prefer to watch movies, but I've been doing the same with books more and more often, especially if a publicist is sending it to me,

where I'm like, I just need that like one to two sentence thing that you say at the beginning because then it is like it is way more fun to like kind of like hit, hit new reveals. It's not always a twist and not know what was coming, basically. but to your point about kind of like it's it is typically called like weird girl lit i'm sure there are men doing it too but that is like what you're seeing in like bookstagram as well um and i feel like you also are like not afraid to go into some like taboo stuff even sexually again around something that people won't get to into like 70 percent um but do you think horror is like

especially a good genre for some of those like weirder things that are unique and different than what we're reading. 100%. Yeah. I think, I think the, I wonder if this is like an idea occurring to me. I wonder if the reason that horror, you know, for so long the conversation was like, there's always a fantasy shelf at a bookstore. There's always a thriller shelf. There's always a romance shelf. There's always a mystery shelf. Like these are like, these are round the clock all-time genres that we always have. And there was this strange thing where when people would talk about horror, they would talk about it seasonally or would say, you know, horror's

having a moment. And this implication being that it's not going to stay or it doesn't like deserve a seat at the table with all the rest of the genres. And I wonder if the reason horror took longer to get a seat at the table, which I think it now has. Now, every Big Five publisher has a horror imprint. Like, we're here. And when I go, you know, I drive all over the country, go to indie bookstores, like, at least like three a week. And I'm seeing so many horror shelves across America now that I never saw before. Yeah, it's really cool. And I think, I wonder, though, if what made it hard for horror to get a foothold like the others is that it wasn't as formulaic maybe i'm not sure like people you know you don't always know what you're going to expect so maybe sometimes you are like oh

that one wasn't as much for me or whatever yeah but i think it's really what is so thrilling about it it's like it's the broadest umbrella term for a hundred different things and people are doing all of those things so yeah you can throw in a freaking taboo sex scene and you can throw in comedy and you can have it be devastating and have it be a quiet grief story or a supernatural thing or a slasher like all of that is horror and so and there it's like I could go on forever and I think it's people are catching on that it's fun to not know what you're going to read yes I think some people I have a couple friends who always tell me they're like I always feel like I'm not smart enough after I finish horror. And I'm like, one, I get that.

Like sometimes things are so abstract that maybe. Interesting. Yeah. Maybe you're not understanding it fully. But I don't think it's like, I tend to tell them, I was like, I don't think it's that you're not smart enough. Like one, yes, the genre might not be for everyone. There's also that, obviously. Um, but when I'm kind of talking people about horror. I'm like, some of it is like, I learned, I learned to enjoy ambiguity more in stories by reading more horror. And I think it's something we're kind of like, we were talking about expectations. If you can just shift your expectations just a little bit. Yeah. You're almost even expecting something super specific. Yeah. But knowing that maybe not everything is going to have a super clear answer, I think people wouldn't be telling themselves,

And then at the end, like, oh, I wasn't smart enough to understand that. It's like, no, it's just a different feeling reading horror. Yeah. Also, hot take. No one's smarter than anybody else. Like, there's like, do you know what I mean? There's just like a million kinds of smart in this world. I agree.

And yeah, yeah, I think it's really just like, yeah, you don't have to like everything. I'm a book DNFer. And anybody listening to this, like, DNF my books, if you're not loving it, you know. I would say give me like 50 pages, maybe, any of them. Yes. Yeah, if you're not loving it after that, like, life is so short and art is so subjective. And, like, there are so many books that you would love. So you should always just, I don't know, there's that, that's the fun of it.

So, yeah, I don't know. It doesn't have to be for everyone. But I would say there's probably something in horror for everyone, you know. I think so, right? Because there's just so many, like, subcategories and so many types and so many different voices. Mm-hmm. which is anyone who is listening that was kind of part of why I put it in my review of yours this one specifically with headlights is if you are someone who enjoys like crime fiction

and police procedural type thrillers but you kind of like dabbling in horror you do go hard with the horror element yeah yeah but I think this is such a this is like that was kind of why I included in my review because I have so many friends lately who are like I'm not smart enough, but I want to try it more or like I don't like this. And I feel like this one really has, it has a lot of realism in it as well. And then there are also the horror elements. That's what I thought was really cool about this when I feel like this would be a good entry to people who are mystery thriller readers, which I thought I was mostly into the last few years. So yeah, that's just, I love that. Thank you. Thank you. For people. Yeah. I love it. And, and

And also, you know, I've kind of learned like all my books have, they're not romances. I learned very quickly early on that we actually sent my first book to a romance bookstore that I love. And they replied to my publisher and they were like, please never send us anything like this again. And I was like, no, I think it's kind of a romance. But it was and wasn't. But that's another genre that has so many sub-jail. And it has rule. Well, it really has one rule. And I won't say what that is because I guess, yeah, I guess I just got a little spoilery with some of my books. But there's always a romance subplot because I love romance and I read a ton of romance. And I think that it's just fun to get to bring it into this like horror world or in this one, the horror world, but also this sort of like crime thriller world. Yes. And I mean, it is reflective of life for there to be.

different relationships no matter of the genre. Yeah. Yeah. And it's part of this whole thing that like we have also a relationship to death, but also a relationship, maybe a romantic one with somebody or maybe friendships or maybe, you know, familial relationships.

Like all of that is part of it. And I love having that kind of spectrum and getting to see characters like interact in all their different sort of circles and pockets and, and relationship types. Yeah, I agree. It's what similarly, and I won't talk about it too much, but it is how I got more into some romance as well in the last year as I started like learning the subgenre.

Yeah. It's more like literary romance. Or it's what I've really come to understand is like calling it like a love story. So it's like there's love involved, but maybe no, this isn't like super romantic. and maybe it is about their lives too and how they go in and out of it basically. So I'm having the same experience with romance. So that's like the new thing I can't stop talking about with people is like if you think you don't like a genre, maybe learn about subgenres.

And that might, you might actually end up like loving a book. 100%. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's just there just is. And there's the other thing I've learned too is like it's like settings and situations.

end up mattering a lot for me, I think, is some of it. This is coming from I finished Into the Blue by Emma Brody last month. And one of my favorite books of all time, I never would have picked it up if I hadn't heard someone else talking about how it is a love story, but it's also within the realm of like improv and stand up and SNL. So like all these other things I was interested in. And I was like, oh, okay. So like sometimes like settings and like hobbies you're interested in might make you love

a genre you didn't think you would. I love it. Yeah. There's always a way in. And I, I personally am such a try anything twice kind of person. Yeah. Yeah. We're here on this earth and you never know. Like sometimes, sometimes saying yes to something that's like vaguely interesting can change your life in ways that you don't know. Right. It really can. Yeah. Well, I loved headlights, It's obviously so much. And you all have heard me say, like, if you're kind of one of the more thriller mystery readers that listens, I think this will be a good one for you to try out. And as of the time that it's airing right now, you can go and go get your copy. Oh, I listened to the audiobook.

Oh, my gosh. Speaking. That it was one of your favorite audiobook narrators. So can you tell us a little bit of that here at the end? Yes. I'm so glad you listened to it. So it was my first time listening to him. No way. So it was fun. Yeah. Okay. So he is so I've probably listened to this guy read like I don't know hundreds of books like no joke because he reads under

two names in two different. So he reads basically under his real name for like any non-romance genre. Okay. And he reads like awesome like thrillers to you know like I would like go through his catalog. He is amazing. And then he reads under a different name for romance. So he's Andrew Eiden normally and then Teddy Hamilton for romance. And I was talking to my audiobook team and I was like, look, he's like so hugely famous. And he's, I really think like one of the greatest audiobook narrators alive. And I can't believe the things that he does. And I was like, okay, probably we can't get him probably he doesn't want to do it probably you all don't want to like try to go get him but like this would be my dream I don't know like is it ever possible and then like three days later like super fast

they sent me and like a clip like they do like an audit they have everybody audition yeah and so they set like a clip and I was like what is happening you're like that's his voice that I've heard so many times reading my book like are you serious and it blew my fucking mind yeah I like screamed I was in New York City on the street and I was like what I mean I would too yeah that is so cool he's amazing sometimes you just have to go for it and ask yeah right and and you never know and I'm actually three for three with really amazing narrator so I feel very lucky as an audio girl myself yes I'm new to them. Like this is, I've actually only been an audiobook listener in fiction.

I used to be able to do just nonfiction. And then it started clicking for me. So I'm only a year in, but I'm obsessed. And I get to read so many more books because of it, which is like not in a competitive way. I think it's very weird when people get weird about other people's reading numbers. But I just love that I can like, you know, you can do all your washing dishes and driving, all the ways that you can't read, read. that are not fun, fun suddenly. Way better.

Yeah. I think our house got cleaner once I started listening to audiobooks. It's so cool. Yeah. And I always get surprised too when people have rules about anything, but like sort of like listening versus, you know, reading with your eyeballs. But it's like oral storytelling is much older than written storytelling. Yeah, we've literally always been doing it.

And it's an art form in itself. So I don't have an issue. I mean, it's great. Yes. I love it. I love it so much. So I do always ask at the end if you have any books you've read recently that you really love or if there are books that you just like always recommend. There is. So one of my best writer friends, Liz Karen, has a book coming out in February. So you got to wait a little while. But it's called speaking of sort of like genre mashups, it's called How to Disappear Completely. And it's coming out with like poison pen source books. And so it's it's definitely like if you're into like thrillers and a little bit horror or thrillers,

then I call she calls herself this. But Liz is like, Liz is like sad girl horror queen. Like I think she's like the Phoebe Bridgers of horror. So if that's like your vibe and you like also. Yeah, she's so good. And if you also want like an investigative element, that's with this book. And the book felt a little like listening to like a radio head song.

It's just really good. So I very much recommend how to disappear completely if you're like, if you feel the feels, if you're like wanting to live in a world where it's this question of like, is it paranormal? Is it not paranormal? What's happening here kind of thing? It's so good. Yes. Okay.

Well, I'm adding it to my TBR for 2027. That sounds really good. So, yeah, I can't wait for people to read. Yeah. Well, where can people follow you to stay up to date on everything? I am on Instagram and Blue Sky and Threads, but mostly Instagram. And my handle is Siege the Moment on all three of them. And I'll have a website up.

Actually, hopefully by the time this podcast goes live, I'll have a website up to. But if it's not just my socials and then I'm about to go on tour. So the McMillan, my McMillan author page has my full. tour info and tickets and I've got that on my socials too and come out and see us. A lot of these events are at like breweries and cocktail bars this year. That's cool. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, everybody needs to go read this one. And thank you so much for coming on and talking about it. Thank you for having me. This was so fun.