Bookwild - Deconstructing Without Losing Jesus: Jeremy Jernigan's The Edge of the Inside

Episode Date: March 31, 2026

In this episode, I talk with Jeremy Jernigan about his deeply personal and intellectual journey behind The Edge of the Inside, unpacking how Jeremy’s lifelong love of writing evolved into a healing-driven project that blends memoir and theology. We discuss how time and emotional distance were necessary to move from bitterness to clarity, allowing Jeremy to structure the book into reflection, belief, and application. We also discuss shared experiences as pastor’s kids, the disorienting process of deconstruction, and the realization that faith is far broader than what we were taught. Listen to hear about: Writing as healing, not just storytelling Jeremy describes the book as a form of therapy, something he had to live through and process before he could write honestly and help others.   The “edge of the inside” concept Inspired by Richard Rohr, this idea captures the experience of still belonging to a system while holding a perspective that challenges it.   Deconstruction and expanding belief systems We both reflect on realizing that what we were taught wasn’t the full picture, leading to curiosity, questioning, and broader exploration.   How language shapes belief (and confusion) The same words, faith, truth, provision, can mean completely different things depending on who’s using them, especially in religious and political contexts.   The “life quake” moment Jeremy shares the pivotal realization that doing the “right” things doesn’t guarantee success—and sometimes leads to losing everything, forcing a complete redefinition of faith and identity. Grab a copy of Jeremy's book here! Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with Jeremy Jarnigan about his somewhat memoir, somewhat nonfiction book, The Edge of the Inside when losing your place means finding your soul. It is a fascinating exploration of going from being a pastor at a megachurch to really redefining what his spirituality meant to him and for others. In the edge of the inside, Jeremy shares the raw, unvarnished story of walking away from a dream job at the center of a mega church, not because he lost faith, but because he found a better one. After spending decades at the center of American evangelicalism as a pastor, leader, and insider, it all eventually unraveled. What felt like failure became an invitation to see faith differently.

This is a book for the ones who can't unsee what they've seen, for those who feel the growing tension between the Jesus they love and the Christianity they were handed. It's for the wanderers, the wonderers, and the quietly restless. humor, honesty, and hard-won hope. This book is for anyone who feels disillusioned with the church, but not done with Jesus. The truth isn't hiding at the center. It's waiting on the edge. And the title of this book has to do with being able to be within a system, but you're like on the edge of the system. So you aren't in the center where you would think the strongest members are, but the centers where even more dogma for anything exists. But being on the edge

of the inside is this unique concept from Richard Roar that allows you to be within an organization or a system while also being almost an outsider and able to critique it and see issues with it. And that is pretty much the premise of this whole book. In the interview, you will hear us bonding over some very specific church kid experiences as well as pastor's kid experiences. And we just really had way more in common than I even expected. And I just love his approach to inclusivity and faith and spirituality and the fact that he was willing to leave a church that wanted to silence him for talking

about issues related to social justice. So that being said, let's hear from Jeremy. So I am super excited to talk about the edge of the inside. but I also did kind of want to get to know a little bit about you before we dive right into it. Did you at any point ever think that you were going to write a book, even if it wasn't this book? Did you ever think you were going to write a book? Yes. Okay.

Nice. So it was kind of a natural progression. Yeah, I was like a little kid and I'd read books and I'm like, I'm going to do this someday. Yeah. I just knew like I was, I've always loved words. I've loved how reading something can transport you emotionally, mentally. I love the way your imagination can get lit up. And so I think, yeah, I was always the one that was like, I'm a writer.

And then I had to kind of do the thing of like, when can you actually say that? You know, is it like, do you have to be published? Do you have to sell so many? Like, what makes you a writer? And then I've just, yeah. Yeah, I've come to the point of like, if you write, you're a writer. And I just make it that simple. And so yeah, I've always I've always loved it. And I think now, this is actually my third book. And I think now like I want to spend more of the rest of my career focused on this end of it. Oh, that's cool. This is a cool way to kind of find your way to that. And with this one, it's, I mean, it's kind of like a blend of memoir and just like general nonfiction. Do you have a process? for like starting it like do you know the chapters that you think that you're going to write about or is it just like you've had enough bouncing around in your head about something and you just kind of start writing great question I think each book is different unless you're a writer that writes all the same like you know if you're like I write stories in this series like then it's like probably the process is very similar for me each of my books have been a completely different journey this one was almost therapy for me it was like I

I need to write some of this stuff down and process it. And I keep my keep like a running journal for myself just to like be aware of my own thoughts. And a lot of this was kind of that of how am I processing this? What am I doing with this? And then realizing I think this is beneficial for others to, you know, to see in their own journey. And that's what's cool. So far some of the early feedback people are going, oh my gosh, this helped me navigate this thing in my life. And like that's like the greatest encouragement you could get is not just,

hey, you wrote a good book. Like who cares? But like you wrote a book that's helping other people find words for their story, for their journey. Like that's the coolest thing ever. And so for this one, the only thing I knew was like, man, I got, I got beat up back. And this messed me up and it's taken me years to process it. And I should write about it.

Like that's where this started. And then it morphed into. I'm going to make that part one, which is like the memoirs, part one, part two is a theology. And then part three is kind of like, where do we go from here? Like, let's put it all together. And that was all later, way later into the process. Yeah. I mean, you probably had to do a little bit of healing to get to the point of being able to write a third part.

Yeah. Well, I tried to write this book like four times. And the first few times I would try it, it was like I was bitter. I wasn't healed. You know, and so I was still too early. And then Diana Butler Bass had something that she shared. One of her editors had told her that never write about something crucial in your life until five years have passed. And for me, it literally was the five year mark. Something clicked. And so I had not read that at that point,

but I read that afterward. I was like, wow, that really, there's something about five years as a writer that almost gives you enough room to breathe to then write about whatever it is you you went through right even if kind of to your point even if you're journaling while you're going through it you don't need to like you don't need to publish them yet right yeah those would not make a great book those are you know these are my thoughts that I'm working through yeah well I think it's kind of cool about what you're talking about there with how like because I had the same experience reading this we have a lot in common um I'm I'm also a pastor's kid um right yeah question mark were you the good one or the bad one because evident i was a completely good one like not not even and then i got i i was so scared though

that i didn't do anything until i established myself financially and then cut off so even then it's like i don't know like i like i still didn't even have that much of a i didn't have that much of a crazy phase which i think obviously we all um handle things differently i i had no judgment for anyone who handled it differently. But some of it, I was like the audio adrenaline reference, the like pink lemonade reference. I had all these references. I was like, oh my gosh, this is my childhood. You just proved yourself that you're real because I don't mention audio adrenaline. I reference audio adrenaline. And only someone who knows audio adrenaline gets that reference. So you just earned your street cred right there. Well done, Kate. Well done. Yes. Billenial P.K. right here.

I definitely experienced all of that. But to your point that it's meaningful when people say it really helped me make sense of my life, I think that was making me think how this book, even the title is kind of based off of something that you heard that Richard Rohr had said about the edge of the inside. It kind of helped things make sense for you. So can you kind of talk about like that inspiration point for the book? Yeah. So I was doing an event one night and we were at a wine bar.

We were doing a wine flight talking about Jesus and I was sharing a little bit of my story. And this was still earlier on in it. And someone comes up to me afterward and they're like, you know Richard Roar has a phrase that like exactly describes what you're talking about. And I'm like, no, I don't know this. And so they sent me like this PDF that was part of something else he had done. And in this PDF, he uses the phrase, the edge of the inside. And he talks about this idea that we expect the center to be where we're really.

truth is found, but in his experience, it's not found. It's found on the edges in the margins. And that just, I mean, it was one of those, like, again, why I love words, but like, it like brought something in me to life. And I'm like, that's what I've been, like, that's what I've been trying to describe. Yeah. And that became an early, uh, litmus test of like, okay, something, I'm, I'm getting ready to share this in a different way. Still didn't know that was going to be the book title at that point. Um, That came later. I ended up using the phrase, the edge of the inside on my website, on my homepage. And I was in a conversation. This was like, and then I don't even know how a year later, two years later, I was in a conversation with someone.

And he saw on my website that and we were talking about it. And he's like, oh, I really loved that. And as I was explaining Richard Rohrer's phrase and then talking about my journey, it was like, I was like, that's it. That's how, I mean, and then like for the next two weeks, all I did is right. And it was one of the, those mad dash inspiration moments where finally the water turned to wine it clicked this is how I tell the story without the bitterness without any of it and it was literally like unlocking that one piece that one phrase everything else flowed out of that and then literally I wrote the book very quickly after that that's that's really cool sometimes it is it's those realizations that you're like oh this is what I needed to be able to even like express myself better about it

And I think it's kind of cool, too, as you explain that terminology, it's also kind of like being an insider, but you're on the very edge of the inside. So you're kind of an insider with an almost outsider's perspective that can still like see criticism for how something is functioning. And I know you had multiple really difficult situations with churches and you talking about things that seemed like something Jesus would care about and would want people to talk about. So can you talk about like, I mean, that's what the book is, but the experience of kind of feeling like an outsider because you're not agreeing with what the big group is doing but still wanting to be a part of it. Yeah. So, you know, we were talking about being a preacher's kid. And I mean, I can't think of anything more inside than growing up as a preacher's kid, right? Like, I'm the kid.

I was always at church, you know, I was always in the pews. I would bring my little toy figures and play, you know, during church services. I mean, like, I literally grew up in the church. And so all of that was like, that was the air I breathed. It was the water I swam in. I mean, like all of it, like was. And you, I think you just kind of. assume like if that's what you've known like you just like that's what it is right and it's almost

like you need something to jolt you out of it i don't know that you can just well maybe you could but it it would take a very mature person much more mature than i am to just arbitrarily choose it of like you know what i'm just going to choose something better than this like for me i had to be jolted and it was exactly what you said, teaching things that I thought were so clearly about Jesus and then getting crazy reaction to it and then trying to make sense of the reaction of like, why are you guys reacting? And one of the things I talk about, not as much in the book, but I just conversationally talk a lot about this. I think especially right now, we're in a season where a lot of people are trying to make sense

of this funky reality. that sometimes the people who introduce you to Jesus will have no idea where Jesus is leading you and will not be able to make sense of it. Yeah. And that is a disorienting feeling that I don't even know that we talk enough about for people because that was that was my journey leaving the center. It was like all these people who introduced Jesus to me that I'm grateful for. Like there's no bitterness there.

I'm all of that. I use all. Like I thank you. Right. Right. But I kept going. You know, it's like I kept following Jesus. And at some point, I lost the rest of you.

And that was confusing. You know, when we're talking about the support of Trump or some of these things today that you go, this became the Christian position. Like I don't know that I shifted as much as everyone else. You guys shifted. Right. Because you did it in a majority setting, it became normalized. And then the rest of us who didn't fit that, we became ostracized.

and we had to go on deconstruction journeys or whatever, you know, whatever you call it. And that was what for me was really bizarre. It's like I never, I never chose to leave the center. I feel like the center left me, if that means any sense. No, that totally makes sense. I had like my experience was, so there was physical and emotional abuse growing up. And then there was, as you can imagine. And I clarify this just so everyone knows.

It's not what I even think about all religions. any religion that gets involved in like control and abuse of children, like it's going to go pretty far because you're scared for like your eternal being and like your soul for forever. So once I was an adult, I basically got into therapy and then I found myself deconstructing in a sense where I would have said at least for a few years that I was an atheist. But then I loved you have a chapter where you kind of talk about how you realize you were

kind of always going toward the edge maybe too and how you like went into a bookstore and saw all the like read things about Christianity that you'd never heard before and that as a pastor's kid you were like oh sure I thought I had like all of the information and I think that's how I felt too and I was like if this is all of the information I have no interest in this at all and then we kind have made a joke that like then then I started hearing like maybe Christian mystics or just other religions in general and that was that kind of opened me back up to the very vague and jocable like spiritual but not religious kind of thing um oh I'm losing it where am I going with it oh so so that was where my deconstruction was going but then now for me it's been about

staying curious and knowing that there could be different interpretations of all kinds of things. And so now I'm back in like, I don't know, agnostic or something. But we have been joking that in 2025, before that maybe 2024, maybe starting in 2016, it got so real that I had my come to Jesus moment. And all of a sudden I was like, oh, this is who Jesus was. Like he sounds like a historical activist that I love, like all these other people. He seems cool.

I'm like, actually, I think I agree with him in general. But then it is really, it's very confusing because you're like, well, I've been hearing all of this. And now I'm hearing there's actually a version of even still Christianity that maybe I resonate with or whatever. So what and then you went to, I mean, you were a pastor, you went to theology school. You kind of, you had gone through all of that was that was it always like a search to just find like a version of Christianity that would work for you? such an interesting question and insight it's one of those again and i i just i resonate with the way you said that yeah i thought i knew all of christianity right you know what i mean it's like i grew up thinking like i've heard more sermons than any other kid you know my age like i listen to my dad

preach all the time and you know if he wasn't preaching someone else was and we were there you know and right and so yeah you have this you have this thought and i don't even think it's arrogant it's just you just like your default setting. I'm like, yeah, I've heard all there is to Christianity. And then I remember even being an undergrad. So early 20s going, you know, I started asking some bigger questions at that point. And I remember like I remember this conversation now. I just laugh about this now. I remember going to one of my favorite Bible profs. This guy was brilliant and helped me help me learn how to read the Bible differently. And I asked him, I said, okay, I'm looking for a resource because what I see from Jesus is so intriguing to me, so compelling. And then when I go to

the Old Testament, there's so much junk there that doesn't look like Jesus. And I said, what's a great book that you would recommend to me to help navigate? Because again, I was in early 20s, trying to establish something deeper. And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah. And he sends me like the name of it. And so I go and I look it up online. And it's like a introductory textbook to the Old Testament. it like not at all what I was asking about and I'm like oh he doesn't know of a resource right and so that kind of made me think like is is there more like what where do you even find more you know and it was kind of this thing and so that started a journey so for me once I graduated I'm like I'm going to start reading books that I had never read before yeah so it was like if you read those four views books

you know like four views of the atonement four views of whatever super nerdy very dry not the most engaging reads right however it was pivotal for me because i started reading these books to realize this thing is way bigger than i'd ever heard and one book in particular was four views of divine foreknowledge which again probably sounds so nerdy to someone listening to this this guy i think this audience will we'll probably even pick it up okay because i get self-conscious even as I say this. No, no, no, no. These are the books that, like, put people to sleep, right?

But this book is, like, how does God know what God knows? And in particular, about the future. So, like, how does God foreknow things? And it was four different arguments. Well, again, I thought, hey, I'm a preacher's kid. I know this stuff, right? I'm reading things in this. I'm like, what the hell is this?

And in particular, I read a view called Open Theism by a guy named Greg void that blew my mind open. I mean, like destroyed something, some, you know, box that I had jerked it. And I'm like, I have never, never even heard a whiff of this. Didn't know. And again, I'm in my late 20s by this point. Right. And so I just dive hard into it. And that, I would say since then, I have been on an aggressive journey of I want to know what I don't know. I want to hear from people who see this differently than me. And, and to me. And to me, me a great book is a book that is the, it's the first introduction for you to an idea you've never heard before. Now, again, if you read a lot, it gets hard because you're like,

oh, yeah, you've read this idea before. You start to get crossover. Yeah, yeah. And you're like, oh, yeah, I read that with them and then whatever. But the first time you're exposed to it, right? Those books are magical. When, when I thought like to me, this four views of divine foreknowledge isn't the best book in the world, but it was the first book that exposed me to this idea. And so I have this like emotional connection. I still have this book on my shelf. I will never read this book again. But I can't like there. And again, we're decades later now that that book has such a has such an emotional, you know, connection to me. So that began this journey. And and now what I do, and this is the way I describe this book, the edge of the inside, I literally am writing a book for me in my 20s.

Like this is the book I wish I had. And part two, the theology has taken me decades to track down elsewhere and then put together in like a summary. Yeah. And what's so cool is like my 17 year old has been reading this book. And the other night he came to me. And he goes, dad,

I just wrote, I don't remember what chapter. It was like, I just wrote chapter nine or whatever, one of the theology chapters. And he's like, I was thinking about what you were saying about the Old Testament and how it doesn't look like Jesus.

And he's like, that's pretty cool stuff when you figure out how to think about it differently and how to read it. And literally as I'm listening to him, Kate, I realized you're having the insight at 17 that I was asking my Bible prop about in my 20s and I couldn't find an answer for it. And that to me is like, oh, this is why I just, I geek out about this stuff. Like it's like so exciting. Well, to have your kids say that too. Yes. And I'm like, you now are exposed to this idea.

And so his understanding of Christianity, like, I don't know where he'll land on all of these ideas, but he's been exposed to so many more ideas than I was ever exposed to his age. And, you know, a skeptic might say, yeah, well, you have no idea what slippery slope you just launched him down. And you know what? Fair enough, I have no idea which road they're going to take. If he was going to maybe question it, he was going to do it no matter what. So at least he's at least he's getting like resources and choices. and different perspectives, that was really making me think one of my favorite quotes is like,

be who you needed when you were younger is what like means a lot to me. And I get, I get a lot. I'm trying not to cry. I get all choked up anytime I see someone getting to do that where they're like, I wish I had this as a kid. And then when you get to do that, like it, for me, it also will like heal some of the wounds in the sense that it gives them meaning basically or you, you actually actively give the meaning that way. Well, what you're describing is therapy because like I'm in therapy. And literally one of the things my therapist has instructed me to do is as an adult,

I have to go back to the kid version of me. And I have to heal things as the adult version of me. Yes. And it is like what you're saying is so powerful when you're like, I didn't have this understanding. I didn't have this language or this voice back then. but I do now. And so I can go back and not only heal the kid version of me,

but try to offer this for other people to do the same for their versions, right? And it's like, ah, it's just so beautiful. It's like circle of like helping one another and previous versions of us. I think is really cool. Yeah. It's so empowering. You get to be like, at least I still have to do it. If I, I don't have too many issues with anxiety now.

It's there. But when it comes up, I, too, remember, I spent like about 10 years in therapy and how you can be like, it's okay. I've got you now. Like you do the parts where you separate into your adult self. And then your child self can know like, oh, there is an adult here who can handle these things.

Like, it's okay. Like I can be relatively safe just because my adult self is here. So helpful. Oh, I love it. So the other thing that you kind of get into. to especially since we're talking about there being different even different facets of Christianity is oh where did it go oh that there like there's also all this like different versions of theology that people are kind of attracted to and so to your point about words I lately in this political

climate especially that's what I'm starting to learn to and therapy is sometimes people use a word, but it can be interpreted so many different ways, even just one word or one sentence or someone could say, like, I am against, or I am for the separation of church and state. And you're like, oh, okay, cool, good. But then they're like, the Ten Commandments needs to be in every single classroom. And you're like, okay, so when you said that, you were like meaning what I thought you missed. Yes. And one of the things you kind of talk about is the where God guides God provides and like the idea that like if the person experienced something they feel god told them to do it then it will happen perfectly and that i feel like that might have been kind of the biggest thing

that was like a lifequake for you maybe um so yeah can you can you kind of talk about that part yeah i mean when you're in the center you you feel like if you if you do the right things yeah god will bless you i mean and sometimes it's it's said that that obviously and a lot of times it's just kind of implied, you know, by things we say of like, well, did you pray enough? Did you, you know, did you, did you, did you, I mean, like, we, we equate if you do these certain behaviors, God's going, I mean, and I've, I've heard pastors over the years, some of them make it very blunt of like, yeah, just do this. And then God's going to show up. And so you're referencing a quote in the book from Rick Warren that, you know, that I love the idea of, you know,

wherever God guides, God provides. Like, yeah, like, I want that to be true. I believe that shows some goodness in God, right? Like God has like this good parent, like leading us along and like, hey, God's going to take care of you. Like I love that. Uh-huh. What I explore in the book and you're absolutely right. This was a life quake for me was that quickly leads to if I do the right things, it will

always succeed. Mm-hmm. And that was my career for a lot of years. I mean, it's like everything just kept building and it's like, oh, I'm an executive. pastor at a mega church and I've got a budget of six million dollars and I oversee 60 people and I'm on my early 30s. I mean, it was like an amazing job. Right. And I loved it. And then, you know, at 35, I'm a lead pastor of a multi-site megachurch. And I, you know, I was like, this is a dream job. And like everything was just like up to that point up into the right, up into the right,

holistically. I mean, I had hiccups along the way that I talked about in the book. But holistically, my career kept, you know, trending upwards. Yeah. And then, you know, in 2020, I get to this moment where it's the most obvious of all the moments that had already been leading me this direction. But it was, you can either keep building this thing and your soul will die. Yeah. And you will absolutely become a shell of who you really are. Or you can be who you really are. Do what you sense Jesus is nudging you to do and you're going to lose it all. And the life quake was that that didn't fit into my equation because it was like no no I didn't do anything wrong here I did all supposed to do so why do I lose and that's what I talk about early on in the book of

I think a lot of us wrestle with this and we're not prepared for it right and I think a lot of Christianity has done a disservice for people of just pray the right prayers have enough faith God's going to show up yeah and God's going to show up if you do it right or we imply if something goes wrong, you didn't quite pray right or you didn't quite do it right. Or we put it back like victim shaming. And it was just totally toxic. But I think we just need to make room for you can do everything God wants you to do and absolutely have nothing to show for it.

And you can fail. And so, you know, I even tried to figure out like what words do I describe because I ended up resigning as a lead pastor. Was it a failure? Was it like what would I call it? Right. I don't even know. because going back to your earlier thing, it depends on how you're going to use the words and in what context.

It's a failure in one sense of my career did not keep going the way I thought it was going to keep going, right? I thought I was going to retire in that role. So that was a failure. It was not a failure in the sense of I came to life in brand new ways that would have never happened without this. So I'm incredibly grateful for it now. Yes. But that took me six years to be removed. to be able to say that. Yeah. I was not working for a church, but I got fired 10 years ago. And I think

I was not a personality or politics fit. And I'll just leave it at that. And that's how I, that's how I feel about it now, though. Like now I work for myself, uh, my husband and I get to like produce content for people. And it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't fired me for, you know, the things that were happening there. So sometimes it just is, which you include that. I'm trying not to share every part of the book, but you include that story of like the man who's like, could be good, could be bad, we'll see.

Like just thinking, knowing something in the moment happens and feels bad doesn't necessarily show you the whole future. And that is what can give you hope when you're in the middle. Or the middle space sucks. Yeah. Yeah. It sucks to be in. And I recently had someone asked me how they worded the question.

It was something like, how do you, essentially what they're asking was like, how do you quickly get out of liminal space? And I was like, I don't think you can do that. Like you don't think so. You have to sit there for as long as it takes. And it sucks. It sucks. It does.

And sometimes when it's when it's that you're truly thinking like maybe I'm about to become a different version of myself, you're, you're, you're, also having to kind of like the best way ever to explain it you all you kind of have to cosplay this person that you believe you're going to be while you're feeling like shit even though you're like I think that's I think that's who I want to be so I'm going to go that direction and it's very easy to get impatient in the midst of that well and then you start you you look at your future weird and you look at your password yes right so you're looking at am I this person now am I going to be that person you know like can I be that person and then you

look at your past and if it's like me, I was like mortified. You know, I like, I can't believe I used to think that. Yes. I used to do that. And the most helpful illustration I use this in the book is I now think of my past as compost for my future. Like it had to die, but it didn't die without, you know, contributing to the cause. And so all of that became the compost of who I am now. So there is, you know, I think for early on people are like, oh, he just sounds bitter. It really isn't a journey of bitterness at all. There is critique and there is, you know, all of that, but not from a place of bitterness, from a place of, hey, I've, I've healed from that.

I've moved beyond that. I've worked through all of that. And now I can say what I think is good and what's not good. And so, you know, I try to talk about in the book of like, there's lots of my journey. I was very grateful for and I enjoyed and made me who I am today. But lots of it, I had to let die. And that's the messy part. It's disorienting when it happens.

Yeah, for multiple reasons, I have a weird thing where it's like the first 19, 18, 19 years of my life. Does and doesn't feel like the same person even. And then it feels like my life started basically when I, it's complicated. But I started therapy and I was financially sound and couldn't have that held over me. And so it's still extremely weird sometimes. One of the first things that happened when I started deconstructing, too, though, was, like, I felt this. I also have OCD that has, like, come from religious, like, rigidity and stuff. So when I was first deconstructing and seeing this stuff, I all of a sudden had, like, the compulsion.

I didn't do it. I had the compulsion. I felt like I needed to apologize to, like, all these kids and youth group. Oh, man. Not even for things I did even, like some. Totally. For like my, on behalf of my dad. Like I felt like there is a really specific example.

There's a music festival called Icthus, which is like, think for people, woodstock for Christians is like definitely what it is for anyone who's like, ethos. And they would always have, it also was set up to have like a cry night. And every year it would be, they would be on stage telling girls. to feel so much shame if they had lost their virginity and they could all come up on stage and confess and be made pure. And that was like the first memory that came to mind. There was a girl I thought of immediately. I was like, I just want to text her and apologize that like my dad was making her feel that way. And I was able to keep it to myself, but I very much have had that experience or I'm like, oh no. That's amazing. But I think it's.

It also reminds me, I really enjoyed your chapter where you're kind of talking about certainty and one, how some people even kind of confuse their certainty as faith, which technically, if you're certain, you wouldn't need faith. But that has been what's been so important to me is to stay open-minded and stay curious and keep hearing other perspectives. So can you kind of talk about, I feel like that's what you have done as well. like you basically stayed curious through it all. I love curiosity.

I'm writing a blog post right now about it because I can't. I just can't stop talking about it. We love curiosity and empathy over here. I wish it was a fruit of the spirit. That's what I want to say because I feel like it's that level. Like it's, it's, I feel like it's a trait of God.

It's kind of an act of love. I totally think so. And I think curiosity is the gateway for so much good in your life. and when I look at the world right now and I look at the stuff that just weighs on me and depresses the hell out of me, it's because there's no curiosity about reality and people just accept it. And, you know, take any news headline right now. And it's like, well, do you actually believe that is the version of reality? You know, and it's like, I don't, you know.

And, you know, it used to be if you, if you question things, it was like, oh, you're a conspiracy theorist. Right. Now it's like, if you don't question things, I have real concerns about you. It's willful ignorance. Yeah. Like you are burying your head in the sand. And, you know, I think there's so much about Jesus that does not fit into any box. You could spend your entire life.

And, you know, there's things that Jesus taught in parables. I love this. Because you and I could each listen to a parable, read a parable, right? and you could go, I think he's saying this. And I'd be like, what? No, he's saying this. And I think if Jesus were sitting with us, he'd be like, yep. You know, like wouldn't it clarify, Kate, you were wrong, Jeremy's writer, you know.

Now he'd be like, yeah, I love it. Love the way you guys. Because Jesus said things like, hey, how do you read it? That's like a direct question. How do you read it? He's talking about the scriptures. Shouldn't there be a proper way to read it? not according to Jesus.

Right. Because he's like asking like, how do you read it? To me, this is where it's like I had so much baggage I had to work through with the church. I did not have a lot of baggage of Jesus because I've always been so fascinated by Jesus. And so even when, I mean, there were moments where it's like, I'm not going to read my Bible right now. I'm not going to go to church right. I mean, there's moments where I'm like, I need a detox. Yeah.

From this stuff because it was like it's too much. And even in that, I still was drawn to Jesus. And this to me is why curiosity matters, because I think one of the problems is if the only way someone knows about Jesus is through one very particular lens through a church community, then if things go wrong with that church community, they lose their view of Jesus, which is why you have to be curious beyond that. You have to ask questions that your tribe isn't asking. And especially if you lose your tribe or you get kicked out of your tribe, this happens to a lot of us, right? You've got to keep asking the questions. Because if the only version of Jesus you have was the version your tribe gave you,

you haven't fully experienced Jesus. Right. So what I encourage people is like, be curious, like read deeply, ask questions, learn from people who are totally different. And that to me, it's like the older I get, the bigger this whole thing is becoming. and I'm just seeing it. I'm able to see more of it than I ever have. And I'm like, I just, I want to read all of it.

I want to hear all the voices, all the perspectives. I just like, I just, I soak it all up. I love it. Right. Well, and since it was, I mean, centuries ago, it's like, of course, there are going to have been multiple people who have written about it, thought about it, used it for good, used it for bad. Like it's such a, it's such a big subject. And it's not just, like the American Christian nationalism that gets into that super fundamental authoritarian stuff.

Like it's Christianity that's been global. It's other relationships that are other relationships, other countries that have done that as well. So it feels like there is. There's just like an unending amount of interpretations. And I do. prefer just hearing different perspectives on it. The one thing that I've had some people mention in the comments of some stuff is that how do you approach the fact that you feel like you're staying curious? But then there's also stuff that I very much am like, no, that is not, but it's not loving or that's not a loving interpretation. And they're like, well, why can't you just get on board with that? Do you get any questions about that?

that. Yes. Okay. Here's my answer for this. Yes. There's an incredible phrase called the paradox of tolerance. And whenever I'm I'm trying to coach someone or encourage someone who's working in this space, a lot of times we'll end up talking about this because I think this is for those of us who are fostering these kind of conversations, this is something we need to be aware of. The paradox of tolerance is this. If I want to to shepherd use whatever language you want to use. I want to help facilitate a healthy community. I have, in order to make a community that is truly inclusive,

I have to be willing to exclude anyone whose desire it is to exclude others in the community. Ah, I love that. So this is why this is a paradox because you go, well, that's not inclusive. That's exclusive. It is. It's the paradox of tolerance because here's what happens. if I tolerate that person, then what that leads to is a lack of inclusion for whoever it is they're targeting. Yes. And this is what a lot of communities do. Well, we're just,

you know, we're just not going to say anything. And where I today, I mean, I've taught this and it gets reactions, right? I'm sure. I'm like, if your desire is to come into this community and you're going to alienate anyone, you're going to target anyone, you're going to say, hey, they don't belong. we're going to let you know this isn't a community for you. And again, you get the push by. Well, that's not very open mind. It's like, no, absolutely. But let me explain to you why.

Because for the environment to be truly inclusive, we cannot allow people to come in here and do that. And it's the same thing. If I was, you know, having a party at my house and someone came in and wanted to just go after every single person who I invited over. No good guest would be like, well, sorry, guys. You know, I invited everybody. Right.

No, you would say, I invited you over and you are, you are attacking everyone that's in my house right now. And like, you're going out. Like, you got to leave. And we understand it in a social sense. Like every, I think every host would be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, dude, you got to go. Like, this is not okay. But in a spiritual community, we go, well, I don't know. And to me, it's like, no, it has to happen.

We have to be willing as the leaders or anyone who has influence to say, if your desire is to exclude others, this isn't the community for you. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I am also reading Chain of Ideas by Eroom X. Kendi just came out. And it's it's all about how the great replacement theory, which is for anyone who's like, what are you talking about, which is a theory that has happened not just in America. It's happened in lots of countries where the leader, president, whatever, gets to a point where they're like, they want to kind of get more power. And so. they're going to say these these Muslim people are becoming too big of a part of our population. They're going to replace us. We're going to have zero power. And our country is never going to be what it was quote unquote supposed to be. There's a lot of that happening here. And that's I really liked how you explained what you just explained because that like with the ice stuff.

I'm like like there's nothing more you're not allowed here. we exclude you and also we're going to treat you really, really poorly because we think we've decided you don't belong here than what ICE is doing right now. And so he's talking in the book about that about like how like the France is kind of going through its own version of that right now, even that kind of started in like 2016 coincidentally. But this this fear that starts to happen of like, oh my gosh, we're going to be replaced. We're going to be replaced. We're going to be replaced. which I don't even understand having that fear in general, but it's there. And you talk about the, how they kind of similar to the where God guides he will provide.

There's this idea that like if you're following God, you're always going to be a winner because like that's what he's doing and he's here for you specifically. but then that kind of leads people to thinking like anything they think is going to be 100% right and to push people out. And I am not really working myself towards a question. I'm just like saying things that we're coming to mind from what you're saying. But do you run into any of those conversations then too with that same topic? Yeah. I mean, I think it's you're describing cultural Christianity, which think about the language that Trump used to get Christians. You know, we're going to have the Supreme Court back.

You're going to win again. You're going to have influence again. I mean, literally, these are all the messages to the church. And collectively the church ate it up and was like, yes, more, more of this, more power, more prestige, right? Because it's to what you're referencing. We have this idea of like, that's what Christianity should be. We should have the majority. We should win.

We should get to legislate our views onto other people. It doesn't matter if it's their body, whatever. like, you know, we, we have that right. That's a very culturally Western Christian way of understanding it. Whereas, you know, one things I point out in the book is like, look, we follow the guy that didn't get a book deal, didn't have a huge church. In fact, John 6, tons of his disciples left him once they realized what he was really about and essentially kind of dies alone.

Everybody's kind of scared and, you know, not a lot of people there other than the women who braver. But like this is our model. And so it's like, no, we're going to follow him and we're going to win. You know, it's like, yeah, you're going to need to rethink that because following that guy. Yeah. There is a win in it, but it's not the kind of win that I think cultural Christianity is looking for, which is we have the numbers.

We have the influence. We have the majority. And even the way, and again, I say this as a guy, I've spent the majority of my career in mega churches. Mega, mega, 10,000 plus. I mean, like, I have been that guy. So I'm saying that as an insider to that conversation, right? Right.

But that has been historically how we have described, like, these are the healthy churches. These are the ones that are growing, right? Right. And I go, I think we've got to point out, like, that doesn't make it good. No. Like, because you can, you know, attract thousands of people in a room at one time. and you can get them to pay for the facilities and the moving lights. It doesn't make it good.

Doesn't make it healthy. Now it doesn't make it bad inherently, but there's nothing about that. And I think we're seeing that emerge now where people are like, oh. And so for me, we're talking about our healing journeys and all this conversation. For me, these days, I do most of my teaching at a small Mennonite church that has one service. Yes. And then the second hour, we do a question and response. And it's like my favorite thing ever.

Yeah. If you would have told me, Kate, six years ago, 10 years, whatever, like, hey, this is what you're going to be doing. I'd be like, nah, I'm going to be. Because I preached to thousands of people every weekend. That's like what I did. Yeah. And then I was like, you know what?

This isn't it. Yeah. This isn't what I thought it was. And I'm grateful that like for me, I got it out of my system. Like, I got a chance to taste all of that. And then I was like, bleh. That is not what I think. thought it was. Yes. Glad I got that experience because now I don't ever look in that

review mirror and go, right. We could just grow this thing like three times. I know. I don't. Well, it's also the the like in game of capitalism in America is that you should be thinking that way. And it's not that you never should, but it is driven by, it is driven just by capitalism in general, which I've also learned is a word that not all of us agree on what it even means and like what can happen with that. So I won't dive all the way into capitalism. But the other thing I really resonated with, I don't know if you know who Pete Holmes is. He's a comedian who was the first person once I had maybe considered myself an atheist like at the very beginning of it. He was the first person that I could tolerate listening to about spirituality.

Oh my gosh. He'll see to him talk about God is fascinating. It's, it's, it's, His language is fascinating. It's fun. Like he's a comedian for anyone who doesn't know. And then if you know him as a comedian, but haven't seen or listened to his podcast where he like, like he's had Rob Bell on and so many, so many people you were even talking about. Him and Colbert. Have you seen that? Oh, yes.

Yes. His, his conversation with Colbert was stunning. I just, I adore him as a. Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. And the way he knows how to communicate. communicate things. Kind of to your point, it's almost like you can hear theology without it feeling

really dry just by kind of hearing his journey. But one of the things that connected with me so much for the first time, after feeling like my version of church had been like, yes, it was a community, but it was more panopticon. My parents were reminding me, like, no matter where you go in this small town, like there are people who know you and know what you're doing. So, better not do anything wrong, which does not feel like community. It feels like a police state. Yeah, I got that message too. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. They all know you. Yes. And so like I was like not allowed to drink Mountain Dew. So I was like having my friends hide Mountain Dew. I know. What was wrong with Mountain Dew?

I don't know. I really. Then cereal that had sugar was called sin cereal in our house. Like there were so many things that had nothing to do with religion that got. Were you guys like Baptist? What was this? Methodist. Really? Okay. Wow. Yeah. No mountain do. No mountain do. What were the other? To the point that my friend started calling my parents, the restrictive parents. And then when my mom found out about it, she got so angry at me and was like, you correct those kids. Like you are a walking example of us. And my dad's like you're a walking example of God. Like so much of that. So that was what quote unquote community was to me and church was to me. And then I heard Pete Holm.

talking about why he's like when I'm looking with a guest I don't even remember which guest it was but he does a lot of his in person and he was like when I'm like looking into your eyes and you're looking into mine and we're talking about these things that matter to me this is what church is why does church need khakis in a sweater and I was like oh my god like 22 years old and I'm like that's crazy but I loved how you even talked about going to the winery with with people and how that felt like it could be church. You have a great quote, but I didn't completely pull that one. But I resonated with that so much. So is that kind of continued to be your experience where you're like church can happen in so many places? 100%. And I still have church in church environments. So I put that as a

disclaimer. I still do. I preach this last weekend. But these days, yeah, I'm way more open minded and intrigued by how it happens in other environments. And for me, as you're referencing, and I talk about this in the book, I began to realize that when you had a glass of wine in front of you, the conversation was holistically different in a good way. And I was like, what is it about that? You know, and then it was like, okay, and when we're sitting in a winery and you're just immersed in this beauty of nature and it's just gorgeous and you're looking over the, you know, the vines and the hills and trees and it's just like stunning and you'd have these phenomenal conversations with people like where i mean not servicing i'm like you're talking about like deep things with people they're sharing

things with you that i you know and so my wife and i we would take these couples out you know on a saturday not every week but like on a saturday we'd go out with a couple to the wineries and just have this for all the time then i'd see him at church the next day and it'd be like good morning pastor you know they're all put together and it doesn't make them bad people it's just what they had learned They learned in this environment. There's a version of code switching when you walk in the church. This is what you do. This is who you are.

This is how you talk. Yeah. Well, the beauty is, and this is, you know, I think what Pete Holmes is referencing. When you're just talking face to base to face with someone, there are no rules.

There are no expectations. They're no. What am I supposed to, how am I supposed to say this to you? It's like, no, we just talk. We,

you know, that's why I love podcasting. Same. It's like, it's way more open-ended as a format. Like, there's not the time restrictions, not the content restriction.

I mean, It's like you can just like have the conversations. Let them go where they want to go. To me, that has been freeing. And so yeah, so like we do a lot of our conversations in wine bars. We'll do, you know, we'll do conversations like totally outside the box. I am tackling things that I'm trying to do now from that vantage point. So like one of the things I'm working on is I think to use, again, to use heated words that mean different things.

Yeah. For progressives, I would say we have not done a good job helping men find healthy versions of masculinity. Correct. And so we have just kind of like hands off because we're going to empower women, which we should be empowering women. Totally. But we've left a gap. And the conservatives have grabbed the guys for the most part. Yes.

So I'm trying to work on how do we help men who don't want to be that understand what does healthy masculinity look like? What does it look like? You know? And so one of the things that I, so I do a lot with wine, but my wife was like, hey, you should do like a whiskey thing with guys. Because, you know, guys tend to be more drawn to whiskey. Yeah. Stereotypes.

Here we go. And so I created a wine and whiskey weekend in Oregon for just guys. And we did one last year. And it was basically like, could we get guys who don't know each other together to have a weekend to talk about some things. that guys should talk about to be healthier but probably aren't talking about. And we'll do it around whiskey tastings and wine tastings and all this. And it was phenomenal.

Yeah. And it was because the space, right? It was because of the environment. And so I'm doing another one this year. And I love it because I couldn't do the same thing I'm doing in a church. Like it just wouldn't work. The guys wouldn't feel safe. They wouldn't be real.

But you get them into wine country. You get them around a whiskey tasting. And all of a sudden, I mean, they are sharing things. and they are talking about real things. Yeah. And I mean, guys were crying together. I mean, just like not for stuff.

Just like you just let the environment and let the conversation go. And so I'm a huge believer. And this is kind of part three of the book. But like whatever the church is going to look like next, it's not going to be more of the same. It's not going to be more, you know, nonprofit buildings that we attend on Sundays. Those have their place.

And I don't think they're necessarily going to go away. I just don't think we're going to keep seeing more and more. of them. I think we're going to keep seeing more and more expressions that look different. And I am all on board with that. I'm here for. I think it's going to be exciting. It kind of, as you were saying that, that also kind of reminds me, I talk a lot on this podcast about there's nonfiction that I love and it's very useful. And then there's fiction that I love. And sometimes teaches me more than nonfiction does. And part of that is because you, your guard might be down a little bit more in,

fiction and it might feel a little more organic in fiction to get to kind of experience all of that. It's also very empathy building, but not the point of training now. I think fiction is the secret to building empathy. Yes, it is. The fact that most people won't read fiction is why people suck at empathy so bad. It's like read fiction and get into other people's heads and feel what they feel. Yes, long term. It's like, that's the other difference between fiction books and a fiction movie is like you are in their head first.

eight to, I mean, if you're doing fantasy like 20, 24 hours and you're spending it like with other people. And I love that I then can also experience like different people's cultures, like all of that even through fiction. But then I also do love nonfiction. Obviously, we're talking about nonfiction right now too. And I was kind of seeing that when you were talking about like there still is going to be the place for like church, church churches, the building. But then there's also there's there's a different realness in other situations and I like to you pointed out too it's not just that it's alcohol it's not like you guys are like blackout drunk and that's why you're finally like sharing we don't even remember the conversations yeah right it's it's it's just part of the environment

and like alcohol is just a part of what that environment is and it's not an environment that's super rigid like literally being in church so I I'd never even thought of it like that but it is a little bit like nonfiction and fiction as well. I like that comparison. Yeah. And I, you know, and so for me, like as a reader, I read fiction and nonfiction. Yeah. And I would, if you said you can only choose one, I would feel like such a loss. I know. Either way. Like I would feel such a loss because there's, there's such a difference in that. And so to me, it's like, can we have both? Like, can I, can I have these really beautiful stories? And can I also have people who are willing to take ideas and develop, you know, like, I really would like both.

That's kind of what I envisioned the church. That's what I was trying to do with part three of this book is, let's have a both future where we're not, we're not battling the institutional church. We're not battling the deconstruction community. We're bringing the best of both worlds together creatively for something new. And I think that's, it's like a good book list. It is a really good book list. So do you want to touch on what you were saying with how you're,

wanting to help men who are getting mixed and toxic messages about their masculinity. I just watched The Manistphere Doc with Louis Thoreau last week for anyone who hasn't. It's on Netflix. And he's literally, like when you think of red-pilled, that he's interviewing the, I don't even know all of the men's names, but think like Andrew Tate and people adjacent to him, who are telling men, this was like one of the really prominent moments in the doc for me. One guy, they're walking and his fans come up to him. They're like, you changed my life.

Thank you so much. Like everything is so much better because of what you said. And so the documentarian, Louis turns to them and he says, like, what did you learn that was like so life changing for you guys? And he was like, well, I am born useless and worthless. And I need to prove my work. via like finances, fitness, and like something else. Like I am always going to have to be striving for myself worth. And he was like once I realized that, like I understood why women didn't want to be with me.

And Louie's like, what do you think about women? And he was like, well, women are inherently born with beauty. And that's all that they need. They don't need to do anything else. And I was just like, who. And I was talking to someone else about it. And she was like, it's one of those things where like there's that little shred of truth.

Like in general, I earn wisdom the longer that I'm alive. But it's like so perverted to be to the point that you're like, you are useless and women don't want you because you're useless. And the only reason women will want you is because all they have is beauty and they can't do anything either. So how have you been countering some of that, that messaging basically? Yeah. I think it's one of those.

subject. It's so divided. Yeah. Across the aisle, right? And okay, so I'll make a weird comparison here. We'll see if this lands. I think it's kind of like a white person trying to talk about racism. Yeah. And for a lot of us who are trying, like, I've tried to be an ally and be in that space. Right. I constantly have a fear that I'm going to say something that I don't understand that is incredibly insensitive and reveals my, my whiteness. Yeah. in ways that I don't even understand. And someone else is going to be like, I cannot believe he just said that. That's always a fear I live with. Same.

But I think the work matters enough that I enter into that fear. And I have people around me who could say, hey, don't, don't say it like that. And you'd probably be okay, apologizing when you're confronted with information. And there's been times where I've like, hey, I want to say something. I'll ask somebody like what would be the right way for me. So I try to even put myself like, I'm not going to decide what the vermin. would be like you tell me what the right verbiage would be. I think it's the same for a lot of men in progressive spaces where it's like I don't know how to talk about being a man without

coming across like I'm anti women. Oh yeah. And so I think a lot of guys are scared of that of like, well, I don't want to, I really want to empower women. I really have that desire. So I don't want to say anything. So they kind of just like don't. And the problem is then you have all these guys that you're talking about with all the podcasts and going loud and, you know, and then this messaging is what, you know, gets, gets across. I've got four sons. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm terrified, terrified of any of them becoming a fan of Andrew Tate. Like that, you talk about like things that would scare me is like if any of my sons ever like, you know what, I think this is the kind of guy I want to be. So I like pour myself into them.

I'm like, what does it mean to be a healthy man? What does healthy masculinity look like? And the problem is, I think for guys, just like for women, a lot of the things we've been told are not healthy and you have to remove them. You know, a lot of this, you've got to prove yourself and you got to be this and that. And even things that don't sound harmful, I've started to realize, oh, that's funky too. I'll give you an easy one that may not sound harmful depending on who's listening. but this the idea that a guy should provide for his family right we go yeah that's great no that's

noval there's nothing wrong with that that is common common common language for a guy a guy is going to hear that all the time from other guys well you got to make sure you got to provide for your family and here's what i would say let's challenge even that notion because what that does is it elevates me uniquely in my family it it devalues anything my wife could do right because now I have to provide. Why do I have a burden uniquely that she doesn't have? Right. So you start pull, you know, pull the threads on that a little bit. And you start going, oh, this is going to reveal some funky things. And, you know, I've had guys say to me pastors, you know, friends of mine that are like, oh man, my wife makes more than me. It's the worst thing ever. And I literally

am confused by this. Yeah, like, because. Yeah. Kate, their manhood is attached to it. Yes. So it's a value system. And so you have to get under the layers of that to go, okay, what is it you believe about being a man that makes you feel that when your wife makes more than you? My wife has made more than me since I left being a lead pastor. Right. Yeah. And I would be lying to you if I told you that never pinged my ego. It has because I live in this culture.

It's being reinforced. But it's been great for me to go, I am okay with this. Now, again, I don't, I don't expect her to carry all the way either. So it's like, it's not like, hey, you should do it. But I don't expect that it falls on me uniquely either. And so if she makes more than me, great. Are we both doing what we love and are we both able to contribute to our family? Like that to me is the conversation. So I think what we've got to do? And again, I'm early in this work. So I don't even know. But Richard Rohr has a book I just bought that I want to dive into. Like what does it mean to get a few layers down? Yeah. us some of the things that we believe. And I think about things that were said to me, like, again, that don't seem weird, but like I remember one time, I'll keep this somewhat vague. I remember one time we were at a family gathering and my wife had driven us there. And one of my family members is like, oh, she drives. Oh my gosh. Yes, she knows how to drive. But it was an indictment, you know, casually on my manhood. Like something's wrong with

me as a man that I allowed my wife to drive us as a family or us. I don't know, you know, I don't know the deals. But I remember thinking, should I be bothered? Like, like, should this bother my manhood? Right. Because it didn't, you know? And I was like, why, why would it bother my manhood? But I think guys have all these kind of weird things like that that are in the culture. And then you get these Andrew Tates, the Joe Rogans, these voices that are just pumping these ideas into men. And so I think we have to do better than just hoping other men rise above it and develop healthy masculinity. Like we have to actually make it part of the conversation. And it's going to take women helping men to do this, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We still have to a little bit.

You mentioned your wife, though. And so coincidentally, the way that I discovered you was TikTok. And I love, she will like ask a question and then like, run up to you and then you'll kind of explain your thoughts on that what what was kind of the origin of doing things that way was it just like you did it one time and you're like oh this is a good idea because i like i think it's such a perfect way especially on ticot to like share this information so it's totally my wife's idea and here here's what she loves more than anything and this is taking me a lot to admit to you kate I get more traction on those videos than anything else I do.

Yeah. Any sermon videos I do, any blogs I do. I have more than the book I'm about to release. Right. I've seen lots of questions. Yeah. That is the thing that like people know me for. It's like, yeah.

We call them Jere, I have a question. Yes, I love it. My wife calls me Jair. So Jare I have a question. And what that came from is we always, we just have these conversations all the time anyways. And her background is not theology. She's got her own things that she's very much an expert on that I ask her about.

But she's like, hey, I think other people might like these theology questions. Like so when I'm asking the theology question, well, let's record it. And so literally what she does is she'll film herself and saying, Jair, I have a question. And then she films her feet. And then it's her feet walking from her desk to my desk in our home. And she speeds it up and that's like a little. Yes. So it's her feet walking.

So if we ever need to oldie fans, we've got tons of footage. Oh, my gosh. I know. She gets to my office and then she'll say like, and I don't know the questions that are coming. So like she's really good at looking at things that people are talking about and then figuring out like what's what's the theological. So she'll ask me. And it's off the top of my head. We just banter back and forth.

There are three minutes or less. And I feel like when I die on my grave will say, Jerry, I have a question. and that'll be what I'm going for. But yeah, it just works. And I've asked her, because like we've done over a hundred of these now. And I was like, why is this, why does this work more than anything else that I do? And her take is she's like, because people want the real conversation, not the polished presentation of it. And she's like, you know, they can get your thought through polished presentations on everything else,

which is like, I think people like just seeing. behind the scenes of like, what's your, what's your reaction to something that you don't know is coming. And I do think there's an element to that. So yeah, we, it feels, it feels spontaneous. I didn't know if you were prepping for it at all. No, I don't know what's coming. I think on social media a lot, if it feels spontaneous, people are like, oh, I might be able to believe this more or enjoy listening to this more. Probably helps that she's on screen for a second, too. Like, not, not just a man maybe that's part of it too we have gotten complaints people are like why why are you having a man explain everything and she had to jump on she's like look this was my idea yeah she's like

this is my husband and this is his expertise like this is what he does like she's like he spends all day long thinking about this stuff so yeah i like to have his opinion on this and she's like he asks me about other things but we don't have an equivalent series you know she's in real estate so if we had like a oh that's crazy my husband's whole families in real estate yeah real estate and theology or and Christianity we've got them in common um yeah that that was really cool was how I found you and it was so wild you're published by choir as of the day that this is airing and it has come out and I think I saw you after Keith Giles reached out to me about his quantum gospel of Mary so I had him on yeah I thought And I was just, I was just seeing yours more and more and more.

I was like, oh my gosh, I love these interpretations. I think I saw a lot about the Old Testament, which is obviously something that also is very confusing for me. And then I made it, I mean, I made it to the end. I typically do make it to the end of all of them. And you mentioned your book in one of them was maybe what it was. And I was like, wait a second. There's a book involved. And then when I looked at you up and saw Koir, I was like, oh my gosh, this is crazy.

I need to talk to him. So social media can be used for good. There are a lot of people who think like the internet. They're like, it sucks. I'm like the people, people suck on the internet in real life. People are great on the internet. Like it's a spectrum. But they worked at grabbing my attention at least.

I'll let Michelle know. Yes. Now we're friends, Kate, because of a random TikTok. Yes, totally. Well, I loved our conversation, if you could not tell. And I'm so glad there are people talking about these issues and publishing stuff about these issues. Like I mentioned, people can go buy it now. It is out. I do typically ask at the end, typically more with fiction people, but it sounds like you read nonfiction and fiction anyway. But are there, and it might be the books you already talked about, are there books that you loved recently and would recommend? Or are there books you recommend to like everyone or like something that you always recommend fiction only or no it can be anything oh gosh i read i try to read 100 books a year that's my goal same you have a hundred goal yeah nice i didn't hit it last year and i felt shame for it i got it was the first year i did

and it was only because of audiobooks that's the only reason i can confidently do it um okay the last so i have to like literally pull up my good reads to remember everything I was okay but the last book that I read that I was like whoa this is really beautiful is Theo of golden oh yeah I keep seeing that cover you read this I haven't read it no so this is a fictional story and um I loved it I really thought it was it was profound it's an engaging story um it it starts to feel a little redundant at parts and then you're like okay, it's kind of the same thing happening. And then you start to realize that there's a bigger story that is kind of being teased out. It's going under the whole time. And so that's why I would

say like, work all the way through it. Even if I got to a moment, I was like, I don't know, this is going to deliver. It did. So I'm grateful I kept in it. But I think right now, this is one of things I, so I host an online community for people who are trying to like navigate these ideas in real time. One of them gave me really good. feedback recently because a lot of stuff I feel like when things are dark you've got to like get into the darkness and like understand it. So we'll do like book studies in our online thing. And I like the last book, one of the last ones we went through was James Cone, the cross and oh gosh, I'm totally blanking on this name. The lynching tree. There it. Oh yes. I just listened to that one a couple

months ago. Okay, go ahead. Well, super heavy. Yes. Talking about the history of lynching in, uh, in America and, you know, just, but to me, it's like the reason I'm like, well, we need to read this because same this happening. And someone literally like, I can only handle so much. I know, like all of this. And it was a good reminder to me of like, okay, yeah, we have to help people come up for air. Yes. So I'm going to have our community go through Theo of Golden as our next book. Oh, nice. Because it's such, uh, it's such a, it's an uplifting book in the sense of we each have

a part to play that we can bring beauty into the world. And yeah, the book talks so much about beauty and it's this idea of, uh, bringing beauty into things that, that may not, that may not have them. And yeah, I found it so compelling. And my daughter is 14. She's reading it right now. she's my she's my super reader and um yeah she's she's loving it although she just got to a tough scene last night came in crying oh and she's like such an empath and i was like keep reading you know she's like okay dad yes that's awesome it's funny that you bring that out though i i have i have the same tendency so when things started to just feel a lot like they were escalating kind of like two the last two years especially

I find solace or grounding in reading even like historical horror, like actually like Tananari v. Do is like the reformatory. So I was like, how are you reading that right now? And I'm like, for me, it like helps me to hear that other people have gone through this stuff. And they were still able to find ways to maybe not rise above it completely because it's kind of hard to rise above like white supremacy. see if, but the ways they found joy, the ways they navigated it, or even just like some of the comfort that like Ryan Holiday had a real, a couple months ago where he's like, so you think you're the first person to live through political unrest? Like, you think you're the first person

to live through violence. Like, you're not. And I'm not saying this in a nihilistic way. It's just like other people have gone through it. So I'm the same way. I definitely still have some like, maybe like popcorn thrillers every now and then. But for me, it like helps me to like actually read darker, darker things right now. So I'm with you. Okay, but I want to ask you a follow question of that. Yes. Have you ever read a book? Because if we're both like this, have you ever read a book that you're like, oh, that one's going to mess me up. Like that was too far. I'll give you two examples for me that like if you said to me right now, you have to read them. I'd be like, I'm not reading these books right now. I'll give you three. I'll give you

three. The Road by Cormac McCarthy. Okay. Depressed the hell out of me. Yeah. Um, silence by, I think it's Sasaki Endo. Okay. Messed me up. And then the Gulag archipelago. Who, I can only imagine. All those books. Like, I read them and I'm like, I need to go for a walk. I mean, it was just like, I was in a funk out of them. So my question to you is, if you, are like me and you process through the negative. Do you ever bite off more than you can chew? And you're like, oh. There was one.

That's a good question because I haven't had one in a little bit. And the reformatory felt like it was going to be like that. And then the author, I'm not trying to spoil it for anyone who hasn't read it, but the author talked about how like she wanted to write a different ending because it's loosely inspired by like her great, great, great, great grandpa or something like that. I can't remember how many generations, but also surprisingly, I loved this book.

It's called Kin by Tayari Jones that I just read. And it wasn't the whole book that was like that. I did not think the ending was going to be as devastating as it was. And I was walking on the treadmill listening to it. And all of a sudden, I'm just sobbing on the treadmill. And I was like, oh, no, I didn't think this is where it was headed. There's definitely been nonfiction. Some of reading, I read a book called Original Sins by, oh, I can't think of her name.

But it's all about the way we Americans used education to civilize for people who aren't watching. I'm heavily using quotation marks, the indigenous and black population. Some of the stuff in there, I was like, I think I need to take it a couple chapters at a time. and nobody's girl by Virginia Jufre, who is one of the first victims who spoke out against Epstein and Trump, that one's pretty devastating. So there have been books where I've been like, I can only let myself do a chapter a day and it's okay to just like take my time with it. Yeah, what do you think the role of those books are? For me, in some cases, so like with Virginia's, I knew it was going to be very uncomfortable.

but the quote I brought up that was like be who you wanted when you were younger, I wish someone could have seen what was happening and not been, not maliciously, but thinking like, oh, she's a pastor's kid, nothing bad could be happening at home. And so some of it for me is kind of the like, to use a very church word, some of it is to like witness because like I wish people cared and wanted to like know what my experience. experiences were. And then other ones helped me understand how people got through really dark times. What about you? I don't like like the last two I mentioned the gulag archipelago was like I didn't realize how horrible humans can be to one another. That's what freaks me out. And the like the level of

like depravity in that messed me up where I was like, Oh, gosh, like we're capable of this. So I think it's healthy in the sense of that is real life. It's describing something that historically happened. So to be unaware of that, right, let's go back to curiosity. I should be aware of reality. That is real. So I think you need to make space for it.

I agree. I also think it would be crippling to try to carry that with you. All the time. I'm going to think about this often. And then, you know, the book, Silence, which was made into a movie. I'll confess. I didn't go see the movie because I'm like,

that book jacked me up so bad. Yeah. I don't know if I could handle the movie version. Right. But it's all about torture and your belief and giving up what you believe over torture. And it was like just mind game. I mean, it was like,

but I'll also confess I'm so sensitive. I've learned this about myself. I can't watch scary movies. Oh, no. Because my brain, I can't turn it off afterwards. Yeah. And so I, and I just have learned like the last scary movie I watched like truly like kind of thriller. This will tell you how lame I am was the ring. Oh wow. That was a while ago. Yeah. I was in college. Yeah. I couldn't stop thinking about it. Yeah. And I had this epiphany where I was like, why am if I can't control these thoughts, why am I putting them in there to then set up shop and I can't control them. And what I've learned is other people can't control their thoughts when it comes to scary stuff. Like they can watch the saw movies and be like, yes, let's go get popcorn.

And I'm like, that would like, I would not be able to function after those movies, right? Yeah. And so even you're talking about like reading, I don't remember how you describe the genre. Which genre? Your horror. Oh, yeah, historical horror. Historical horror. Like, that sounds awful to me.

Like I'm like, that would scar me. Yes. So I think there's something to knowing how you're sensitive. and it's different for every single person, right? I'm sensitive in this way, whereas you're like, that doesn't do anything to me. But you might have a total sensitivity to something that I'm like, oh, I read that all the time. It's fine. Right.

So I do think there's something like learning yourself, but it's interesting when you get to those books that you're like, this one's going to jack you up. I know. I'm having somewhat of a similar experience with this. And this might be some other people too. I had not watched The Pit, which is on HBO. And it's an ER drama. basically, but each episode is just an hour of the shift. So each season is just one 15 hour shift.

And it is so heavy. Like they are, they're nailing how difficult it. I like, I don't know how some people are health care providers, for example. So like, that's something like I don't know if I could survive working in an ER and like the things they have to accept about death every single day that like most of us don't have to. And I was just talking to my friend about it who had told me like, no, you really have to start. And I was like, I can't binge this show. Like I know it. I just can't. Like two is enough for me. Like it'll take me some time. And he was like, oh, my mom and I burned through like four episodes the first day. But then there are things that like I read that he's like, I have no interest in going there. So it is all different. Like there's a child death last

night and I texted him and I was like this didn't even make you cry and he was like no and I was like I'm stopping so yeah you you just have to know and circumstantially sometimes it depends on what's happening in your life yeah that's great yeah well I feel like we could probably talk forever um I'm enjoying yeah I've probably a lot to learn from you well same this helped me a lot too where should people follow you to stay up to date with everything so my website website is jeremy jernigan.com. That is where I have everything. So all the podcasts, I do, social media links, I write a weekly blog post. So it's kind of like the one-stop shop for everything. I'm on some of the socials that I like. So I do TikTok and Instagram primarily. I have an account

on threads and Facebook that I rarely use. But TikTok and Instagram are the two I use the most. And then edge of the inside.com is the website for the book. And you can find all the different things without there. Awesome. Well, thank you for coming and talking about it. And thank you for writing about this stuff. Well, thank you for the invitation to geek out on things that we like about books and journeys that are very similar and how we've healed from them.

I mean, I feel like we've come full circle on so many things. This has been a fun conversation. It's good that it can happen. I love it.