Bookwild - Double Agents, Journalism and Espionage: Connor Martin's The Silver Fish

Episode Date: July 7, 2026

**If you're listening when this airs, note that this episode was recorded at the beginning of May and should've come out in May.  Due to an injury (and painkillers) it's been sitting in my drafts, and I forgot to publish it.** In this episode, I chat with Connor Martin about his new espionage thriller The Silver Fish. Listen to hear about:How a 20-year journey and a career in national security led Connor Martin to write his debut espionage thriller—including why switching from literary fiction to spy fiction finally unlocked the story he was meant to tell. The fascinating real-world technology behind The Silver Fish, from undersea internet cables to corporate control of critical infrastructure, and how Connor turned a little-known global vulnerability into a gripping thriller. A behind-the-scenes look at crafting morally gray characters, intricate twists, and cinematic action, including why Connor rewrote each character's storyline separately to create distinct voices and perfectly timed reveals.   Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with Connor Martin about his espionage thriller, The Silverfish. If you are a fan of spy novels of like fast-moving action and especially ones that incorporate tech and politics as well, you are going to love this so much. The short gist of it is, in this thrilling espionage fiction debut, an American journalist in Ghana is pulled into a dangerous struggle for control of the world's fiber optic cables. That is kind of all you need to know going into it. There are so many reveals, and I think he was really impressive the way that he worked in some geopolitical elements, some tech elements, and also some very like spy thriller feeling elements. So if those are things that you love, you're going to love this book.

And I got to talk to him about the inspiration for it. And also how it is oddly relevant right now. So that being said, let's hear from Connor. Well, I am super excited to dive into the silverfish, but I always want to get to know a little about the writers first. So what was your journey to writing like? Yeah, well, first of all, it's great to be here, Kate, and talking to you, you know, really excited to be on the show. So my journey as a writer. I've been working other jobs my whole life, you know, national security jobs and government.

the private sector, but I always wanted to and believe that I could be a novelist. So it's actually been, believe it or not, a 20-year journey to get to the Silverfish. The whole time it wasn't writing this book. It was writing other things and false starts and fits and starts, but it's pretty surreal to actually have it out in the world and hold it in my hands now. Yeah. When you knew you wanted to write a novel, did you know this was the genre you wanted to probably write in? Actually, no. No, I wrote, I wrote actually a couple other novels before this one that were more kind of like literary, literary fiction. And it was fun. But I think I became a better writer through the process of doing those. And ultimately, like, I love the genre of espionage fiction for the reasons everybody does, right? It's like it's page turning. It's like world. expanding, but also it often can get at like bigger questions around the world we live in, identity, double-cross, you know, secrets and things like that. And so I just thought it was a, it was kind of a

natural fit of like, oh, and actually I know stuff about this world, you know, so like maybe it kind of was like a light bulb moment, like, why don't I just write a spy novel, you know, so that's, and here we are. Yeah. Did you, when you were writing the others, how does your writing process kind of develop then? Like, do you outline? Do you go, with the vibes and then was it any different writing a little bit of a different genre yeah definitely more vibe and meandering with the earlier things um which doesn't really work for a spy thriller um i will say that for for some of the silverfish like some of the character development and kind of backstories i did a little bit of that let me vibe let me meander with this character holds the

childhood like etc um but obviously for the plot like it's super uh sort of tictocky and page turny in terms of like, you know, every things have to happen in exactly the right moment. And it's also parallel timelines. So like I really plan that out. And I'm writing the sequel right now. And I'm kind of in the same exact headspace of like, you know, moving pieces around literally on a board. Yeah. That's so cool.

It is. There's a lot going on in that, in this one. So I was wondering, I was like, I don't know if you can, how could you write like reveals? And like you're saying like the double crosses if you didn't have some planning. but I know some people do. Like I'll talk to some authors where I'm like, there's no way they didn't plot. And they're like, I don't know. I just like wrote what was happening and fixed things later.

Yeah, I mean, to some extent, like, I don't know if I believe that, right? Like you got, I mean, like for a real intricate twisty type of book, which so many great spot novels are in which I tried to hear, like, you don't have some idea that you're going to like yank the rug out from under the audience, the reader, you know, like in chapter 10, then like if you write in chapter one, you know, is going to be different. You know what I mean? So like for me, at least, that's how my brain works. Yeah. I feel like that's how I would have to do it. With this one, it sounds like you said you kind of had a moment where you're like, I kind of know some of this stuff. Like I should try a spy novel. What was the kind of like first idea that came to you?

Like, was it the technology, the cables, the character? Like, what kind of came to you first? So I really started with the setting, actually, of Ghana in West Africa, where I spent some time when I was younger and I wanted to write a book set in Ghana. So I started there. Number two, I was like, okay, who are the characters? Who are my heroes or anti-heroes villains? Who's in Ghana?

And then Danny, who's the sort of main character? and then some of the other, you know, there are several other sort of prominent characters started to come to me. And then I thought, okay, what is going on in the world that I know a little bit about in terms of sort of covert battles, basically,

that could put these characters in a conversation with each other in a sort of plot against one another in Ghana. And that's where, you know, that sort of, it all came together with the undersea cables. And it's like a little bit fictionalized, you know, like there's not, you know, literally like in the book, right, there's like an important undersea cable in Ghana and some of that is true and some of that's not true. But it was like, how can I bring all of these elements into one piece? Yeah. That's what, so when I first saw, I don't even

know when I would have seen like the synopsis of it first initially. It was so wild because I know if it's being published right now, you were at least working on it a year ago, if not longer. And I'm sure there's probably always some, like, talk about these fibroptic cables, like, deep in the sea. But I saw the synopsis right around the time that Iran was starting to bring up the fact that they would maybe cut them in retaliation to the, just like the war that we're waging on them. And so it was kind of trippy because I was like, this is extremely relevant right now. So was it like shocking for you having it kind of come out then? Or is this kind of like people are in power struggles over important stuff like this all the time? Yeah.

No, I mean, it is one of the least known, like most little known major facts about the world that. So there's a very small sort of group, basically people who've worked in the government or in like policy circles. Like everybody knows and it's not a secret, right? Everyone knows that these cables are all over the world. it's how the internet works like you know i'm talking to you like we're both in the continental the united states but so it's not under sea cables but ultimately we're doing it over a cable um right like and then if you happen to be in london or Tokyo or something it would be we'd be having this conversation via these cables right now that's just how the internet works and i feel like

that's not a secret it's widely known but nobody really knows it and it kind of shocks people when they learn that. So yeah, of course, like, just like any other physical thing in the world, you know, when countries are fighting each other and one country is like, hey, this is an important thing, maybe if I need some leverage in a situation, I can, you know, boy, like, be a shame of anything happened to your cable, you know, like, pretty obvious. And, you know, Iran obviously is like top of mind right now, but like lots of other sort of flashpoints in the world, these cables are sort of part of. Yeah. The other thing that I thought

was just kind of interesting to think about too is there's a little bit more of like a corporate element to this, the way it's being discussed in this story. But when I was describing it to another, to another reader, I was like, and so basically it's kind of about how these companies, basically I said the word companies instead of countries. And I was like actually at this point, especially in America, it's kind of the same thing. Like there's so much corporate greed and so much of that involved as well. So what did you have to do like any research to kind of bring in that corporate element to it also? Yeah. I mean, it's a really important point. Like the companies almost entirely are actually not owned by governments. They're their private.

They're owned by most of the world's cables are owned by either Google or Amazon or meta. Those are the three specifically for whatever reason that have been like, okay, this is our thing. And, and, you know, there's some other telecom operators and things. But like, yeah, that introduces this whole other piece where it's like we are relying on it. You know, it's infrastructure. It's sort of like it's just as important to our lives as, you know, the road we drive on. or the bridge we drive over or whatever, like these cables go down. Massive problems, right?

Not just like for us having this interview, but your bank, your health records, whatever, anything that's online. And yet they're in private hands. And so we're kind of like dependent on these companies' goodwill, basically, to. And also there are these companies' ability to protect this infrastructure, you know. So it's a super, it's kind of a vulnerable place, you know, that we're in. and that was definitely, you know, I wanted the book to be first and foremost a thriller, fun page turning.

But if people go away with it being like, wow, I also learned this kind of crazy thing about the world that I didn't know before, then all the better. I'd love that in fiction. Like, and it could be all, it could be anything, but I love when there's like either, even like an emotional point where maybe I'm like, oh, I'd never thought of something that way, or like factual stuff that it has me like Googling more stuff. It's good. It's fun when you can get it through fiction.

Totally. So you mentioned the setting kind of even came to you first with Ghana and that you spent some time there. What kind of made you want to write there, basically, or write a story there? Yeah, I mean, Gama's an amazing country. I spent a summer there when I was younger. And it's not a very big country physically. So I actually got to go to a lot of it. And, you know, when I was wanting to write a story about these themes of like geopolitics, the way the world is changing technology, like there actually aren't there aren't so many stories set in contemporary Africa, you know, in the sort of massive market, right?

But it's such a important kind of place for all of these, where all of these themes are playing out like right now, especially on technology because in some ways, you know, Ghana, specifically in other countries in Africa, you know, Nigeria, can. Kenya, some of the other sort of bigger economies there, they're like leapfrogging in some ways from like less technology to this sort of always online world that we're sort of catching up to in the United States. So it's a really interesting, I wanted to kind of, again, write something that was thrilling and fun and really drop the reader like into the marketplace or into the bar or whatever. But also if you come away being like, Ghana seems cool. They've been or never heard, you know, that's also like a big plus for me. Yeah.

I have to do a very quick shout out to these books that are right behind me. But Yasmin Ongo has the Dina Knight series, and it's an espionage series with a female assassin, essentially, in the trilogy. And she is from Ghana. So we do have one other little set for anyone who reads this and is like, what should I read next? It's probably one of my favorite trilogies. but I kind of had that experience like twice now where reading spy novels I've like gotten more and more interested in Ghana and I I enjoy that I like that you can kind of like expand your world that way totally and I mean I you know I had a pretty thick diary from the summer that I spent there of like things

it and so like a lot of the scenes and the reason that I kind of felt confident writing a book set there was like that's just literally like that's a place that I win or that's like an internet cafe that I went to you know so hopefully that comes through too when you're reading it yeah you do feel the setting like very immediately I listened to the audio book but I remember like there's also a very like I don't know what to call it kind of intense and like suspenseful beginning I mean the whole book is too but I was listening while I was walking my dogs and I was like I literally feel like I am somewhere else like as I'm walking my dogs through this like suburban neighborhood. So I love that loves like a real feeling with setting. You do get this that with this one. But it also like you said is very pacey and has lots of twists and lots of

reveals. Was there did you like have to do something to kind of consider keeping it page turning but you're also dealing with some like very complex global systems? Was there like were there times that you were like, okay, I need to kind of like not info dump all of this right here or spaced it out. Yeah, definitely. Like in the editing process and over the various drafts, I think that there was there was like more stuff about the cables that eventually got cut because people were readers. Readers were like enough about the cables, you know, like I get it. Yeah. Which is fair.

And that's why you have readers and editors and agents and people to like give you that feedback. But yeah, like I would say that the twists and the turns and kind of, like I said, it really needs to be a fun thriller first and have a little bit of learning in it. But ultimately, like, you know, it's not a textbook. It's not a nonfiction book. And there are plenty of good ones about this stuff if people want to read it. And I'm glad you talked about the audiobook because it's excellent. It's so good.

The Hannah Cavill, who's the narrator, did a really fantastic job. I'm glad you're. Yeah. Yeah, like the different characters, like the accents, like literally all of it. It's very, it's a really well-produced one. I was actually wanting to see if she's done any other ones because that's like one of those fun moments where like obviously not every narrator is for everyone. And so then when I find one that I really enjoy, I'm like, okay, what else have they narrated? I've read genres that I wouldn't expect to read just because the narrator was so good. Yeah, yeah. It's great. Yeah. Well, the other thing that we have going on is the main character, Danny, is she's a journalist. So it's also, I think it's kind of fun sometimes when you're definitely reading something that's like an espionage thriller, but it's not your traditional spy character. And it's not that she's totally inexperienced, but it is kind of like she's a little bit of an outsider kind of coming into this situation.

So what was it like kind of like building her character? Did you do any research into journalists so that maybe cover this kind of stuff? Yeah, definitely. And so, you know, I've never been a journalist myself. I did do a lot of research actually into like famous, you know, war correspondence and foreign correspondents. I studied, I did study a little bit of journalism when I was in school. And so some of the like kind of rules about journalism that Danny talks about early on in the book come from sort of my class there and sort of what I learned.

I thought maybe I would want to become a journalist. So I never did become one, but I kept the notes from the class. Yeah. And so yeah, I wanted it to be like, like you said, it's an espionage thriller. And in the chapter one, which is pretty intense, drops you right into that world. but then you kind of meet Danny, this journalist, and you're kind of through the early chapters, like how is this eventually going to intersect? And that's where the sort of, once you start to get the train going down the tracks, the momentum of the story like picks up. So that was

yeah. Yeah. It also, it feels really cinematic too when you do have the like parallel storylines going on. Because I think something that we just maybe see more in, movies like it definitely happens in other spy books as well but I think um in movies you have so much of the there's not one main character and there there is like a big like cast of recurring characters in this book but I think movies will like jump scenes even more than we get used to or that we have in books because it kind of just you can be even more I don't know third person omniscient I guess with a movie. But I really felt like we were getting that here where you're like, okay, how are these things going to come together? Did you, it sounds like with the plotting, you probably did kind of know

what was going to happen. But did you focus on like, did you basically did you write like one of the purse people's storylines all the way through and then write hers? Like how did you do that part? Yeah. I love that question because yes, basically that is how I ended up. Okay. So I will say that, you know, I wrote the entire first draft with different characters. And then the first draft was very much like, okay, chapter one, two, three, I just wrote it in order in the plot. And so I jumped around a little bit in my brain. But then when I was editing it and kind of refining the plot and also wanting to make sure that the voices of each character were kind of distinct and felt different from each other, I basically experimented with what you just said, where I said, let me write all. all the Danny chapters and forget the other characters for now. And then let me write all the characters, all the chapters about, you know,

Billy, who's this assassin or the double who's the sort of, and let me just write that person's story straight through. And it gave me a fun, it was kind of fun way to as like I could kind of take a break from some characters and just, yeah. And then it's like at the end, I was like, oh, I have all these stacks. Let me just interspers them in the order they go in. and it really flowed perfectly. That's so cool.

I always wonder that, especially with books that also like time hop. I'm always like, and everyone's, every author is different. It seems like some people are like, yeah, I wrote it linearly.

And then I like switched the like past and present back and forth. And then some people again are like, I just started writing. And I get bored if I know what's happening. So I can't know. And I'm like, okay like more power to you. Power to them. Yeah.

I know. I also really enjoyed like we do get emotional like backstory to like Danny especially but even with some of the other characters too and sometimes that's

what's missing in some spy novels which isn't always bad either because sometimes like you really are there for the plot but I do think the kind of like her internal journey and then the external were able to both happen essentially. So what was it like kind of managing those two aspects of the story? Yeah. I'm glad. I'm glad that spoke to you and that kind of that and it was important like Danny obviously is is the main character. So she has

kind of most of the emotions, but all of the characters have a little bit of why are they who they are and why might they make the choices that they end up making. And that was important to me and fun to write because they're all their, all their, all their, you know, lives and backstores are just so different from each other. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I just, that was where that was a little bit more free flowing, you know, like kind of vibey. Let me just write. And like, if I were Danny, what would my college experience have been like?

what why would I want to become a journalist in the first place you know what are some and then same for the double and same for billy like if i'm billy why did i join the army what you know who are my like that kind of just like kind of just improv and and a lot of stuff you know made it into the book a lot of the stuff i was just like yeah cut that yeah but ultimately it gave and i think the editing process was where it was kind of like what's the exact right balance of just enough so that these characters are real. You care about them, but like the pace and the plot is is the main thing of the book. Yeah, that makes me think about like some authors will talk about like they needed to know those things about the character for the character to feel real, but some of it didn't

always have to be included. So it sounds like it's kind of that kind of a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Something you said made me think of something else. I don't know. So you mentioned you worked in like within the government in some areas and i don't know how much you can talk about any of it but what which parts of that kind of helped you with writing the book yeah i think um you know my time in the government um helped with the parts of the book that are about the kind of geopolitical like west and china and and what's happening in africa you know kind of the big themes of the book sort of beyond the direct plot, you know, beyond the like what's happening and who are these characters. And, you know, like we were talking about a few minutes ago, that's definitely

in there. And it's really important kind of context. It's almost like the canvas, the canvas that the story is taking place on. But ultimately, it's not a, it's not a textbook, right? It's not a news article. So it kind of gave me the background color. But for the actual writing of the book, it didn't it didn't inform all that much actually you know what i mean yeah like more how can i write a great novel than right yeah yeah it's not i mean it's not like you were a spy or maybe you were and we will never know the there's obviously i think in the genre especially you're you're typically going to run into morally gray characters and it's a good genre for kind of thinking about like ins versus means and like when you're doing something to maybe protect like another group of

people but maybe her doing another group of people. So was it particularly interesting getting to write really a lot of people who are kind of living in that moral gray area? Yeah, that was really important to me and a really fun part of writing the book was I tried to have all of the characters really be kind of black, not black and white, you know, kind of like. Like, Ray, like you said, and for, you know, some of what they're doing, you're like, okay, I see it. And there's a sort of moral or there's a reason they're doing that that's defensible. And some of what they're doing, you're like, oh, my God, why are you doing that? You know?

And I wanted that for every character. So you can sort of root for any of them or none of them. And different readers have responded honestly in an interesting way to different characters. Like, I love that character. I hate that character. And like that was what I wanted because the real world is like that. And certainly in this sort of high stress, high tension. Yes.

Environment of like an espionage, you know, plot or whatever. The whole kind of what makes it so dramatic is like, yeah, like the choices are always going to be a little bit imperfect. And you're always going to be maybe hurting someone, maybe not, you know. And so that is what feels sort of dramatic about it all. Yeah. It's very compelling and it's kind of, I mean, a little bit random here reminding me of I just finished watching the pit. And it's such a similar thing in the fan space where like some people are like, I hate this person. And it's like every, in my opinion, every single character on that show is complex in all kinds of different ways. And then exactly what you said, there's so much. The high. stakes are it's life and death again in a show like that most of them are trying to do the right thing or make the best decision or save lives when it's possible but they're all very different people

and i think also kind of some other parallels is they're also obviously very ambitious and driven people too so it's like the decisions they make are going to be different than what a lot of people are going to choose and sometimes then it kind of takes on a life of its own where it's fascinating hearing what the fans are in this case readers like what they're picking what they'll excuse in certain characters and what they will just like hate in other ones totally and like you know I love the pit and I love that about the pit right yes um you know whatever every doctor is like you're you have good good parts about them and parts about themselves that they maybe like would want to change or the audience want to change and like that also like you said with the dramatic

you know, if there's a patient coming in or in my book where, you know, in the silverfish when like there's a sort of decision to be made by a character, the nice thing about that moral ambiguity is you as the reader or the audience, you're not sure which way they're going to go, right? Yeah. If they only ever did the right thing, then or they only ever did the wrong thing, then there wouldn't be that uncertainty, which for the reader or the audience, you're like, what's going to happen? I could genuinely go either way, you know, and so that's a fun.

I like that as a as a viewer, as a reader myself, and I wanted to do that in the book. The other thing that I think when we're readers and viewers is it's so easy to kind of like armchair expert it and pretend like we even know what we would do in the situation. And like especially in really high intensity situations, you have no idea what you would actually choose to do, especially like if your body's like flooded with adrenaline, if it's life. Like there's all life and death. There's all kinds of things that like we like to think we know exactly how we would handle situations, but you don't know how you will until you're actually in it.

Totally. And that's what makes for great drama, right? That's what makes for just compelling entertainment ultimately. You're like, you come on your seat. Like, what's going to happen? Yeah. Was there anything like when you were writing it that surprised you that was like either it was like more difficult than you expected or like, you?

you thought you were going to handle something some way and then something kind of just changed your mind, obviously, without spoilers. Yeah. I think that the character of the double was kind of the one that took me the longest to get right as the writer because he's such a complicated character. It's right there in his name, right? Like he's a double, right? So he's working for, he's a spy for one country while acting.

actually in reality being a spy for, you know, a different country. And yeah, he's trying to manage logistically keeping his various identities in secret straight. And he's also trying to marriage more, you know, manage morally like what, you know, am I doing the right thing? Like, you know, who, who am I kind of morally like in my different roles? And so that was hard. That was hard to like keep track of and it was hard to get hit the right emotional notes. But it was fun because I think it's sort of the key to the whole book is like that character because the other characters for most of the book until really the very end in some cases

that don't don't know where that character really stands. So that was the piece of it. Yeah. That is the fun with anything where like con stories, anything where people are trying to get one over on each other you never can completely tell like even if you're reading in their perspective you're still like something could happen that might make them switch to the other side like immediately yeah it keeps the suspense up yeah and it's fun also for the reader you know i wanted there's some some shows or books the the reader the writer will tell the reader oh this person is

really this person and you kind of know that but the characters don't but i purposefully didn't want to do that here. I wanted the audience and the characters in the book to figure it out more or less at the same time. So it's like, whoa, you know. Yeah. Yeah. With some of the action scenes, I'm always fascinated by how people write action. Because again, we're not actually in a visual medium and you're having to like write it in such a way that it becomes visual for the reader. Do you have any tricks for writing action sequences? you know I've never been in physical combat myself so I don't you know there are some writers amazing writers who like have done that right they've been yeah I've been in the military right so I I don't know I kind of it's kind of like writing any scene where you have to physically move you know if you're writing a scene where a character I don't know goes into a restaurant and sits down at the table and someone sits across from her, at some point, you're writing, she walked over here, she moved her right arm here. And so to some extent, writing an action

scene is the same problem, just kind of in a more intense way. It's how to write where the limbs are going, what's happening in a way that doesn't feel like you're kind of giving like clunky stage directions, you know? Right. And so, you know, I think like switches of perspective. I tried to play with, like, sort of like for you as the reader when you're reading the fight scene, sometimes you're right in like, you're right in with someone's fingers or something, you know, like in the opening fight scene. And then sometimes you zoom way out and you're like looking at the car where the fight is happening. And so movies kind of do this too, you know, and I tried to sort of recreate that a little bit on the page.

Yeah. Yeah. It makes it very fun. when it feels that cinematic too. And you're just like, I feel like as a reader, you're locked in. That's like the other thing I enjoy about more complex plot storylines is like because there's so much to pay attention to, it like actually does just like grab all of my attention. I love the feeling in a book of being like, I need to be suspicious of everyone. and I'm going to try to figure out what's happening like the whole time. It just like keeps me locked in.

Yeah, I love it. Totally. I love that feeling too as a reader. So I'm glad. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like you can find it in spy thrillers. The other place I've been starting to really find it is like psychological horror.

There's there's some, a lot of like needing to lock in and pay attention to details and that kind of stuff too. And like to keep talking about TV, but like severance is enough. one that was like the way you had to lock in just like made my brain so happy was there when you were writing it did it did it change any of like how you thought about kind of like global technology or even like global relations or is it kind of like coming from a place of like what you had been thinking and feeling about those topics um I think it was was, I mean, I tried not to put too much of like, here is what the author thinks about these issues.

Right, right. What I tried to do and what was fun about having multiple characters, which is sort of a similar dynamic in the sequel that I'm writing now, is like, I could have different characters express different views on the U.S., on China. And that character really, really thinks that way. and I can kind of inhabit that view and try to like represent it super faithfully like well if I thought this way I would I would say this or I would say that and then like I have another character that thinks the opposite and try to represent their view and kind of just put them in the in conversation with each other and let the reader like same with like the moral grayness it's like the reader will pick up on whatever resonates with her you know and right I'm right That's, to me, that's fun as an author, like, rather than I really try not to put the right answer is blah, blah, blah. Right. And you try to keep all of that out. Yeah.

Because also there is really a right answer with so many of these questions, you know? I know. Yeah. Especially, like, when you're talking about it on a global level. But it does, it kind of reminds me, as you were saying that, a couple of things. I always talk about how sometimes fiction can expand your empathy more than even, like, nonfiction can. And so it's kind of making me think of that, like you're saying, like, you could at least be, you can at least find yourself empathetic for some of these people's beliefs because you know where they're coming from. But it also was just making me think about like debate where like if you want to be good at debate, you need to be able to inhabit the other person's perspective almost entirely so that you can't even have a conversation about it.

Absolutely. And, you know, when you were asking me earlier, like, oh, did I write sort of every character's section all the way through? Like, that really helped this process because I was like, okay, for these weeks that I'm writing this character, the way I view the world is this, you know. And it kind of, it allowed it to sort of flow more confidently. And then when you put them on the page next to each other, you're like, oh, these are actually pretty conflicting viewpoints. But hopefully both kind of like valid, you know, or couldn't happen. Yeah, totally. Well, I loved it. It might be obvious to everyone. But for everyone who is a big spy thriller fan, you definitely want to go read this one. I'm super excited to hear that you're working on the second one. Is there anything you can say about it? I know you sometimes can't. Yeah, there's not too much. But I can say that it's mostly not set in God.

I'll leave you with that as a teacher. Yeah. We'll get to some different areas. Yeah. That works. That is like a big part of the fun of it, especially even the one I was referencing from Yasminango. Like it doesn't take place in Ghana for all of the trilogy either.

So it is fun to just go different places. But yeah, I'm excited for that next one. I do always ask at the end if there's anything that you have read. recently that you really loved or if there are books that you just always recommend to people? Totally. You know, a lot, there's so many great spy fiction being written these days. I mean, you know, one of my favorite recent books is The Peacock and the Sparrow. Ayas Perry wrote that a couple of years ago. That's set in Bahrain in the Middle East and just does an amazing job of a lot of the stuff we've talked about like setting moral grayness.

you know, espionage, CIA stuff. So I highly recommend that one. Paul Viddick is another great writer. You know, the Poets game, I think is his latest. He might have another one that's more recent than that. Those are two sort of definitely would be high on my like, if you like the silverfish, you should read those books. Yeah.

And then, yeah, you know, I don't know. I would say those those are those are high on my list yeah yeah I'm definitely going to add those for when I need that I am like in the middle I'm in the middle of a book called Into the Blue and it is like really like contemporary fiction it says it's a love story but it's not romance in my opinion and it is like so emotional and like wearing me down and I'm like I'm going to need something fast-paced after this so I might have to go with one of those too. Yeah, I'm always one of those if you need like a palate cleanser. Yes, yes. I'm like, I'm going to be so sad at the end of this book. I can already tell. Yeah. So I'll probably switch to

those. Where can people follow you to stay up to date with everything? Yeah, so I'm on, I'm on, I'm on Instagram. I have a website, Connor Martinauthor.com doing some events. I'll be at Thriller Fest, which is in New York and in a couple weeks. I'll be mostly throughout the Northeast over the rest of the summer doing some bookstore events and things. But lots of stuff. And yeah, I would say I also have a little email list on my website. I'm on what else?

I'm on Facebook. I'm on Twitter, which I don't use very much. I am there. So people can find me. And I'm always, you know, I love talking to people that. Yeah. Thriller Fest is so fun. I got to go last year.

and I wanted to go this year, but it just didn't work out with my schedule, but it is so much fun. So hopefully, yeah, that's, I loved it so much. I'll be back at some point. But I will put those notes or those links in the show notes so that everyone can go find it. And thanks so much for talking with me about it. Yeah, thanks, Kate. Really, really glad you love the Silverfish. And, you know, it's been great to chat with you about all things, spy fiction. Yes.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to. coming back when the see you. Yes.