Bookwild - Emily Layden's Once More From the Top: Fame, Misogyny, and Parasocial Relationships

Episode Date: September 10, 2024

Emily Layden joins me to talk about her new contemporary fiction novel Once More From The Top!  We dive into her inspiration for the book, and our shared obsession with the many facets of fame.Once More From The Top SynopsisEveryone in America knows Dylan Read, or at least has heard her music. Since releasing her debut album her senior year of high school, Dylan’s spent fifteen years growing up in the public eye. She’s not only perfected her skills when it comes to lyrics and melody; she’s also learned how to craft a public narrative that satisfies her fans, her label, and the media. In the circles of fame and celebrity in which she now travels, the careful maintenance of Dylan Read pop star is often more important than the songs themselves.And so lots of people think they understand everything about Dylan Read. But what no one knows is the part of her origin story she has successfully kept hidden: her childhood best friend Kelsey vanished the year before Dylan became famous. Now, as Dylan’s at the height of her career, Kelsey’s body is found at the bottom of their hometown lake—forcing Dylan to reckon with their shared past, her friend’s influence on her music, and whether there’s more to their story than meets the eye. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

We love tablet gossip. I get it. I get that it's really irresistible to wonder which song is about who. And sometimes our stars are intentionally feeding us, right? I think about that. So I keep pulling, dropping the Beyonce references here, but that line where she says, like, sometimes shit goes down when there's a billion dollars in an elevator, right?

We're all sort of winking at it being like, I know, I know what you're doing. I know what you're doing, I know you're paying attention, I know you're trying to figure out my real life, and it behooves me in a way to feed that a tiny bit. Nonetheless, it is a dangerous game for everyone involved to assume that we know the artist based on their art. This week I got to talk with an author who is as obsessed with fame and celebrity as I am, and I know you guys have heard about how much I love it already. So if it's something you love too, you're going to absolutely love this episode and this book. It's called Once More From the Top by Emily Layden. And it is about a singer-songwriter named Dylan Reed. Everyone in America knows Dylan Reed, or at least has heard her music. Since

releasing her debut album, her senior year of high school, Dylan spent 15 years growing up in the public eye. She's not only perfected her skills when it comes to lyrics and melody. She's also learned how to craft a public narrative that satisfies her fans, her label, and the media. In the circles of fame and celebrity in which she now travels, the careful maintenance of Dylan Reed pop star is often more important than the songs themselves. And so lots of people think that they understand everything about Dylan Reed. But what no one knows is the part of her origin story she has successfully kept hidden. Her childhood best friend Kelsey vanished the year before Dylan became famous. Now, as Dylan's at the height of her career,

Kelsey's body is found at the bottom of her hometown lake, forcing Dylan to reckon with their shared past, her friend's influence on her music, and whether there's more to this story than meets the eye. This book explores so many aspects of fame, especially the differing ways we treat women who are famous and the different expectations that are given of them, and also this new tension that we expect to know everything. about our favorite celebrities or people that we're fans of in general. And what that means as a fan and also what it means to a performer who's feeling that tension to be perfectly authentic and themselves all the time.

So I had so much fun talking with Emily about all of this and I can't wait for you guys to hear it. So let's get into it. before we dive into once more from the top, which I am a digital reader, but I got a physical version. So I was like, I have to bring it with me for the people who are watching. It's such a beautiful cover. But before we dive into that, I did want to get to know a little bit about you. So when did you know you wanted to be an author or what was your first moment where you were like, I'm going to write a book? So I come from a family of writers. So my dad is a writer. He's written over 40 books. He does predominantly ghost writing. My uncle, his brother, is a longtime journalist for Sports Illustrated. My cousin, his daughter, is a television writer. We are a family of storytellers. That's cool. Yeah. And my cousin and I used to put on, you know, like in a very tweet or annoying way.

We used to like put on little living room plays that we wrote when we were kids and everybody would watch and everybody encouraged our creativity in a way that I think is really special and really important. But I think I do think most of all living with a working writer, growing up with a working writer showed me that this was like truly a viable, like that this was a real job. And I think that to some extent, do have to like see it to believe it a bit. So that was it was modeled for me from from when I was five. Yeah. That's a big part of why we're here. Yeah. That is really cool. And you're, what you're saying about seeing and believing is such a good point because I've also, I feel like you hear it commonly. I've heard it from a few authors and even on other podcasts where they're like, I liked it, but I knew that that just wasn't a viable career option or like there was someone who

was like, I thought the like government had to like tell you you're allowed to make your money that way. So it is so different that like you did just get to like grow up around it and see it as a legit career path. That's really cool. Yeah. And to know to be really, really clear eyed about it too, like to know that it is it is it is work there's going to be you know there's there's there are going to be ups and downs they're going to be setbacks there are going to be successes but there are going to be failures and that it just is about persistence and discipline as much as it is any kind of you know we romanticized creativity so much and just seeing someone who was really, my dad is incredibly talented, but he's also a workhorse. And I think

that was really, that's important to know too. Yeah. I just saw, I don't know if you know who Rob Hart is, he's an author who kind of writes like sci-fi speculative thrillers. His most recent one was Assassins Anonymous. The idea was like assassins who give up killing, but then like people come after them. So kind of like actiony and sci-fi basically, but I just saw he wrote something on his substack about how like the most important thing you can be as an author is stubborn. And like the idea of like being stubborn about like finishing your story or like he was he was talking about how he had gotten a really good publishing deal early on in his career and then didn't get picked up again with that same company. But he was like, I'm still going to keep

writing. So it is, it is fascinating how it's, it's kind of that mixture of like, you have to be like, I'm going to get through writing a whole book, like, and then I'm going to do it again. And you still have to be disciplined. It's not all just beautiful, magical creativity all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm sure, I'm sure Rob was also referring to like, you know, when the door opens for you, it's not a door that stays open and you have to like insist on keeping like a, like a, a toe through the gap at all time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it is a business, you know. Yeah, totally. So what is your writing process like? Do you outline? Do you pants it? What, how do you write your books? So I am a big believer in the really messy first draft. It helps me to just get it all down, start to finish.

no pausing, no going back, no matter what epiphanies I have, no matter what issues I realize, just like, just go, go, go, keep moving forward. That act of writing straight through, you know, to paraphrase Joan Didion, right? Like I write to figure out what I'm thinking. And that process helps me figure out the book I want to write. And then once I have a very messy, unreadable to anyone but myself first drop down, then I outline. So I'm a second draft outliner. And that, because I think by then, I'm a lot clear about what the book is. And I think

I wish I was, that process, whenever I share it, I'm like, oh, that sounds so inefficient and such a waste of time. But, you know, and I wish I could sort of quickly conceptualize the whole thing. on a storyboard and put it all down, but I'm not. Well, I mean, it, like, it may not be quote-unquote efficient, but I was having a conversation with someone about something. And I was like, but if it's effective, if it, like, is producing books doing it that way for yourself, like, maybe it's not that it's, like, efficient or not. Like, it is effective for you in a way of finishing your books. I saw there was a quote going around Bookseagram recently. I mean, I'm sure it's gone around it before. But like Jordan Peel talks about how it's about the first draft

is about shoveling sand into the sandbox so you can make sand castles later. I feel like that's kind of like a freeing way to think about that first messy draft. So that's cool. That works for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you get to know your characters kind of as you're writing your first draft too or like do you know your character or your main character before you start writing? That's a great question. So using once more from the top as an example, I think the top line answer is it probably depends on the character. I think that my main characters tend to be pretty fleshed out. I'm pretty sure of who they are before I start writing. I think I'm a character forward writer. I am a character first thinker. A lot of my ideas begin with character. I think that's

why that draft process works for me if I was plot forward. If my brain naturally went to plot, I would have a different process. So with once more from the top, Dylan, our protagonist, I was very sure of her contours. I knew she was a perfectionist. I knew she was incredibly ambitious. I knew she was a, like a chronic, a good girl. I had, I had those tent holes before I that was all I had when I started writing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's enough. I'm assuming you probably knew she was a musician too. So it's like there's a lot to go off of there at that point. Yeah. But speaking of all of that, what was your initial inspiration for once more from the top? So I think a lot about fame, particularly contemporary fame, particularly the experiences of famous women, and the kind of, I think about, I think a lot about the way the expectations of a famous person have changed in the past, you know, definitely since the mid-century when sort of, you know, you know,

A movie star was defined by their inaccessibility, right? The way they were totally entirely of another planet, right? And today's fame, which is really characterized by the opposite, by accessibility. Let me know how, let me know the authentic you, the real you. Let me see your real life, right? And yet still, of course, they have to be aspirational. else they wouldn't, we wouldn't worship them. We wouldn't idolize them. And so I think about, I think about that like every day, just like scrolling Instagram. Me too. I'm very,

those exact words are like very interesting to me as accessibility versus aspirational. Yes, right. And the, our most iconic stars right now, right? Like people, although, and we can talk about this too, I think this summer has been an interesting moment. You know, know, with an artist like Chaparone kind of dominating the discourse or Ethel Cain, right? Like, but artists like Beyonce or Taylor Swift have made a built entire personas through work that is deeply personal. And there's like an inherent tension there, right? And that is really, that seemed really ripe for storytelling to me. Yeah, I totally agree. I think it, Chapel, on a side note of Chapel, I think it's really cool. Some people, of course, think she's being

like bratty about it. But I think it's really cool that she has like set an actually a pretty firm boundary so early in her career. If people don't know exactly what we're talking about, she basically posted a couple weeks ago, just something about like my life changed so quickly and people are just coming up to me on the street. And like, I don't think she was talking about all fans. That's another thing. Some people are like, oh, you have to be grateful for your fans. I think she's talking about the ones who are like being rude and like needing too much from her and like touching her like without consent, I guess still is the right word for that. And she even kind of said something because

she feels like she's almost performing, like she's in drag when she's on, when she's Chapel Rhone. Yeah. She called it a project. Like this is a project. Yes. Yeah. And I thought that was so fascinating too. I remember seeing like those videos. And so she even had kind of a cool like demarcation almost with that where she was saying to people when I when I'm dressed up when I'm chapel roan like I'm chapel roan. But like when I'm just walking on the street like don't call me Kaylee. Don't come like running up to me and like just like encroaching on even like the privacy you still are allowed in public. And I just. I just like. And I just. And I just. You just I thought that was so cool that like the I think yeah she's gen Z that like the gen Z generation like it'd be cool if that's the new model for fame absolutely I mean can we swear on this is it okay to swear oh yeah yeah yeah so like I mean she literally said I'm a random bitch you're a random bitch yes yes she was yeah so is an iconic thing to say and something you cannot imagine a millennial star saying. I think it's really different. It's a really different. The goalposts,

she is maybe moving the goalposts or maybe moving the definition, which is really, really interesting. It is because it is just the parisocial relationships we have, which like, it's not that I'm not guilty of them. Or I guess guilty is not the wrong word. It's just like I still, I know I still participated or get and get caught up in it anyway. But it's like I, I also don't feel like these people owe me anything if I saw them in public like and it's normally the opposite like my husband and I have talked about it like I almost don't want to like meet someone in the context of like oh you're standing in a line to meet them after their concert like it would be cooler and who knows I'm not saying it's going to happen in my lifetime but it would just be cooler to meet them

through like a more sincere way if it happened that way because it's just like it's an interesting concept to be standing in the line of like a thousand people just to like kind of talk to someone brief moment, but a lot of people just think, like you said, they deserve that access to knowing everything. Right, right. And I feel like in those moments, like, in a pre or post-concert meet and greet, like, I would be acutely aware of the fact that, as Chapel said, this person is working right now. Like, I am, I am a part of their job. This isn't, this is like a, a some sort of duty she's fulfilling because of some machinery in the industry. Not necessarily that this is like some sort of authentic interpersonal reaction.

Exactly. Not to diminish people who certainly have, like, who have longed to, you know, get a hug from Taylor Swift. Like, that's also what's that. That's, like, part of the deal. Like, I'm so glad that there are, like, these adorable photos of her hugging nine-year-old. Yeah. But for me, I do think a lot about, I spend a lot of time thinking about what the dynamic really is there and that there's a, that this is a professional moment, not a personal moment. And I think that the way we live now has muddied that a lot. And to what you were saying earlier that you're interested in fame, but also even more specifically the way women have to navigate fame. that's the other interesting part that I think is becoming more and more obvious too is what we expect

from women and like just how perfectly nice they're supposed to be in every single situation. And I'm like, I, my sister-in-law and I were talking about it, we were both on our periods at the same time. And I was like, how does Taylor Swift perform for three and a half hours? and then still be like very gratuitous. Like she doesn't do after show mean greets anymore. But like she's like making eye contact with people in the crowd. Like she's singing. She's running around.

I'm like, I am not my best version of myself every single day. But it's like there's definitely this thing happening. And I won't get too into it like lively either. But like there's like such a propensity for us to have like the new woman of the week to hate. And it just doesn't happen with men. Like it's just not expected. We're not, I feel like we don't analyze men's behavior on like every red carpet, the same way we do with women.

No, I mean, we absolutely don't. Or like, if you even just think about like the difference, I am a huge, I love Zach Bryan. The expectations on Zach Ryan are totally different than the expectations on, for example, I don't know, Lainey Wilson, right? Like it's to use sort of two artists from similar genres, even though Zach would hate being, hating, hates being pigeonrolled, I think, but somebody says. Yeah. But like if Zach says, Zach will go online and say, and say something like, I think of this happened recently, he said like, you know, he said like, don't call, don't, don't call me a pop star. Like he got mad because of someone putting him in the genre.

And that kind of pushback is just like, just would not be, a woman artist would not be allowed to push back on the way, on that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah, it is just so different for women. Was what did, I mean, it sounds like you kind of knew from the beginning that you wanted it to be a pop star, but was there anything specifically that drew you to that version of fame? So I knew, I think that I knew I knew I didn't want to write about an actress.

I think that that didn't feel as there was something about how that was going to feel on the page that wasn't as compelling to me. I knew that and I think I was never going to write a writer. I'm not interested in that. But songwriting, I felt like I could, I had enough like a little bit of knowledge. It's just I'm a writer, how a writer's brain works. That's different than being a poet. That's different than being a songwriter, of course,

but there's some connection there. And so that was like one arena, and then I think the one way in, and then the other part was just like simple curiosity. I going in thought songwriting was magical. Like genuinely in the most literal sense of the word, like I didn't understand where melody came from or how lyrics and melody came together, how an artist did that.

I didn't understand production. I wanted to know about those instincts. I wanted to know about the training that helps a person know when they've caught a snippet of melody. That was all really, really fascinating to me. And like a book is just an excuse to spend a lot of time obsessing over something. Yes. Yeah, that was going to be my next question. Like, what did you do? Because there's, you really have a lot of details of music production in it. Like it was making me think of music differently or listen to it differently too because I was just like, you kind of dive into like,

how you can make a sound song more anxious, sound, song sound more anxious or like uplifting. Like you really got into all of So how did you learn about all of that? So I had, it was like the best part of writing this book. I had so much fun researching for it. And I, there were really, I did a lot of, you know, I spoke to any songwriter, sound engineer, producer who would speak to me. I went into any recording studio that would have me. I spent time in Nashville. That was hugely, hugely formative for the book.

But I also, podcasts were a fantastic resource for this because of the way they allow you to hear the music that the hosts were talking about. So podcasts specifically music, the podcast about music theory or sound engineering or musicology. Switched on Pop was a real favorite. The one, Song Exploder, those podcasts that break down a song for you, those were really, really, really helpful in teaching, in training my ear.

That is really cool. And that makes a lot of sense. Like, obviously, I have a podcast as well, so it's a little meta talking about podcasts. But even the whole reason I wanted to start one was like one, similar to you, you're saying you're really curious about music. It's like I'm really curious about books. And I had listened to so many.

And I enjoyed how like you can kind of get to know, you get to know the host or the hosts. But there is, there's so much you can just like learn about other people's experiences since it is this like long form medium where they. can, they're not trying to fit everything into 25 seconds. So you'll like pay attention to it while you're scrolling. Like you can just like you can actually hear and learn more and just get like a more genuine feel for all kinds of things. But you're the first author who's mentioned that like with research. I mean, I'm not saying you're the first one ever to do it. But to use podcasts for the research, especially with music like you're saying that's really that's cool. It makes me want to

kind of listen to some too. Because I'm always intrigued. by it because in the same way you were saying music feels so magical like when I try to think of like it's like that and drawing are the same to me like I I just nothing comes into my head or I can imagine like coming up with that or like even sometimes how when you like read just the lyrics of something before you listen to it like it's not the same experience at all so there is this whole like you could be saying even some things that would sound we are just spoken. Actually, espresso by Sabrina Carbender's a really good example of that.

But you hear it and you're like, oh, I get the five. I don't know what this is about. This is so funny as if you just read it. Yeah. If you just read it, you'd be like, um, what? I think I saw she even said that like her record label was like, we don't know about this. She was like, it's good. It's good.

Like, we need to do it. And I was like, good for her for just knowing and trusting her instincts on. It's that me. espresso. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that the even,

even just like, so I read a, I obviously read a lot as well. But when you're reading, you know, I would read some really academic, like scholarly articles on music. And like,

I don't, I didn't know, you know, I'll use a really simple example. Like everyone talks about 808s, the drum machine. I didn't really know what that actually sounded like, right? So like that podcast, but a podcast would be like, oh, and they've got 808s going in the back,

and then they would separate out the stem of that sound. And then I would be like, oh, now I know what that is, right? Like to define music, you need to be able to hear it. And that was really helpful for me. Yeah, that's actually reminding me. There is a guy, his name is Troy. but he's H.T. Hayes on Instagram and YouTube and TikTok. And we got really interested in him because he's a producer.

Like he produces music and he's musician himself. And he does a lot of like reaction videos to all kinds of albums, like really popular ones or like on Fridays. I think he does like small artists and like his patrons on Patreon can basically submit like I found this person. I really love them. You should listen. and what my husband and I noticed when we've just been watching him is like it's so cool. I think it's the same thing you're saying too to have like he'll be like, oh, the kick drum really is perfect for this reason. And then all of a sudden, like we're in the car and we're like, ooh, I see why they use that kick drum.

And so sometimes like I know it can go both ways. I know some people feel like if you like know how the sausage is made or whatever, it decreases your like enjoyment of the art. but it's always been the opposite for me. So like even reading books like Save the Cat Writes a Novel made it even more fun when I read and watch movies to be able to see like, oh, and then like they, here's the midpoint and like you just see different ways that people pull it off. But like for me, I get like a deeper appreciation for it from like knowing more about it. Yeah, absolutely. Totally agree.

I hope you're enjoying this episode of Book Wild. and if you are, could I ask you a favor? Could you go and rate and review this podcast and whatever platform you're listening? Ratings and reviews make the biggest difference in discoverability of the podcast, and I definitely want to find all of our fellow thriller readers out there. So if you could go rate the podcast and leave a short review, that would make a huge difference. Thank you, and let's get back to the show. On a less technical note, the book also focuses, we kind of just, we talked about how men and women are

expected different things with fame. But it also really focuses on just the kind of misogyny there is in the music industry. And she starts out in country music. And so it's kind of touched on there. But how did you approach? There are a couple different examples of stuff like that in the novel. How did you approach incorporating that? So I think that that's a really good question. because the novel also write like has some examples that are pulled from real life like she mentions she mentions tomato gate which is

for anyone listening who doesn't know this is like a kind of famous infamous incident where a label executive in Nashville said that women were the tomatoes in country music's salad which is like such a weird metaphor anyway I still feel sometimes I don't really get it but I you know

I and I what I'm what I was saying there what I meant there is like I I had a lot of fun weaving this novel in and out of real life pulling from real references and then pulling back and then making sure we lived in a in a more fictional world um I I think that at the end of the day I wanted to write about how hard it can be as a artist to number one like you were just talking about with Sabrina carpenter stand in your own two shoes right like no is that the expression stand in your own feet i think it's your own shoes i know what you mean at least hold your ground basically yeah whatever like to know yourself and your art to trust your instincts um to trust that your instincts are also what is best for your career

because there's always going to be an inherent tension between artistry and capitalism. And if you want to make a living as an artist, that's a tricky thing. And I think that that is even harder for women, particularly for young women, to just know that when you're sitting in a room full of men, it is still okay to say, no, no, this is, this is, well, maybe not that I'm, I wasn't even trying to say it's still okay in the book. I'm not, I wanted to say how hard it is to say, this is my vision or, no, no, I think that this is the best choice or, but this is what I'm trying for. Can we do something as a collaborative team that would help me make it the best

version of my vision. All of those things are really hard when there are a lot of more powerful older men telling you how they think it should go. Yeah. I don't imagine like that's also not that necessarily that you have like a male editor who's like trying to force your book, but I assume it's kind of similar in the writing process too with novels where sometimes you, there's the stuff that you're like, no, this is what I do want to keep. And this is why I, I want to keep it versus like also being open minded is like that kind of difficult balance, especially like you're saying when you want it to be a career. Right. Totally. And I, you know, I've been very fortunate. I've had fantastic editors. I'm also a screenwriter. I've had wonderful

collaborators in the producer and executive side. And so I have been fortunate. But what I think what I've been fortunate in is that I've worked with people I trust. And if there is a level of trust, you know that that person, whatever input you're getting is coming from a place of wanting what's best, of genuinely wanting what's best for you and the work. Right. And that trust is earned. that trust comes easier in some situations than in others.

And sometimes it's not there at all. And that is something Dylan encounters a lot. Yeah, there's also, I don't think it's very spoilery to say. There's a point where someone she worked with in the past, a man she works with in the past, like some bad stuff comes out about him. And it's like she at that point hasn't been working with him for, years, but she is, she knows she's going to experience the backlash. So that I, I thought that was, I mean, cool is like the wrong word because you don't want it to be something that's out there.

But I thought it was, it was like a good inclusion because there's also this weird thing where it's like if a woman ever worked with a man who did something, they like somehow have to like atone for their sins as well in the media. Oh yeah. So strange. Right. And it's like, this was a fictional like this is a novel this isn't real but I think part of what you're speaking to is just like how of all the things I wrote in this book like utterly believable that is right then of course she would have to carry water for this for for the sins of this producer yeah yeah she there are a lot of ways that it's hard to win as a woman in that in in in that industry um the other thing that you definitely touched on that again is kind of, it's very believable. But is a little bit intense is just like how hive-minded fans can get when they're super obsessed with like, this is exactly what her song is about. This is exactly who this lyric about.

And I think something that you probably also kind of did with this book as well, then is touched on in her character, is how writers or creators of anything. kind are often pulling from inspiration that is their real life, but also are creating fictional things. And with music, like, you also are going towards a specific feeling and a vibe, and it doesn't mean everything is literally autobiographical. But how did you kind of approach that fan dynamic of people who think, like, I know everything about her and I can interpret everything she writes, literally. Yeah.

It's, I mean, we've all seen it happen with, you know, pick your, pick your star, right?

But like, we know this happens with Taylor. We know this happens with Beyonce. It was, it was done really, commented on really well

in the series swarm. Um, if anyone, which is kind of based on a, a star, a, a,

Beyonce asked Star and her and her fandom. I think that it is irresistible. We all love, we love celebrity gossip. Like there is a reason it has been like a tent pole of American culture for like 75 years, maybe 100 years, right? Like since the 20s, right? we love tablet gossip

I get it I get that it's really irresistible to to wonder which song is about who and and

and sometimes they are you know our stars are intentionally feeding us right I think about that again so I keep pulling

dropping the Beyonce their references here, but that line, I'm totally like, you know, what's long it's from, but there's a line where she says, like, sometimes shit goes down when there's a billion dollars in an elevator, right? That was like a knowing, like, I know you all watch that video. Yes. Yes. And so. Yeah, and in some ways, they're wanting to like take the power back from someone intentionally. We're all sort of winking at it being like, I know, I know. I know. I know what you're doing. I know you're paying attention. I know you're, I know you're trying to figure out my real life and, and it, it behooves me in a way to feed that a tiny bit. Yes.

But I think that nonetheless, it is, it is a dangerous game for everyone involved to a that we know the artist based on their art. And I don't, I don't want to, like, I didn't want to, I guess I wasn't trying to, in the novel, I wasn't trying to only sort of, or I wasn't trying to say that it's only the fans who are hurt by this dynamic. I was also trying to, it's, it is Dylan who's really struggling with how much do I owe anyone of my, of my private life. How much of my private life is really in my art, which is kind of a magical question that no artist maybe really knows the answer to. Yeah, yeah. I was, I just, um, last.

night went to see Chelsea Beaker, who wrote Mad Woman, it just came out. And she was with Lindsay Hunter. They were, or she was in conversation with Lindsay Hunter. And she kind of asked her that question because there's a lot of Mad Woman that is coming from Chelsea's experiences in her life. And she had a comment about, she was like, I think all writers have like their little bag of shit. And then she's like, maybe I should call it gold. instead of shit. But she was kind of saying how like some of the stuff that like sticks with you, even when it's like positive or negative,

like it is something you're kind of carrying through. So like she loves to dive into motherhood and mother loss are things that are in both of her recent book synops. Um, and so she was like, so if I start, if so if I ever write a like happy book about a giraffe, I guess you can know that I've like transcended.

So that was kind of like already in my like brain space like after hearing her talk about that last night. And then it was definitely in your book where it's like Dylan is pulling from personal experiences and she's creating stuff. Like it is still fiction. It doesn't mean like all of that. And like Taylor Swift, I've seen interviews with her too where she talks about like sometimes someone just really is a muse and is like giving you so many like feelings to. And like Taylor Swift. I've seen interviews with her too where she talks about like sometimes someone just really is amuse and is like giving you so many like feelings to. explore and then sometimes you get nothing from them. And so there it is just fascinating. Like, of course there's some part of an artist in anything they create, but then it also is fictional too. So it is crazy too. And even with Taylor Swift, something that I think I got really intrigued. Everyone did when the air store started happening. But the way she does Easter egg is such a, and I don't think calculated is always a bad word the way we like to say it is with women sometimes is a really calculated and smart way to keep people's attention like oh watch every single thing that I'm doing because I might be telling you something like it's so effective but there have

to be some moments where she's like what did I do what monster did I create yeah I don't know the orange body suit was just an orange body suit like you know it doesn't mean karma is real I know. I know the big debate of like, is it karma or is it a chief's body suit? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I don't know. There wasn't really a question. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I don't want to make you feel like you have to come up with something. But yeah, it is. It is. It's like it's just it's brilliant in a career sense. And I think it's also. so really important to remember that she is a billionaire. And so she's made career decisions, like, not just decisions through the parisocial lens of, like, what everyone thinks they know about her. Yep.

But kind of similar to Taylor Swift, there's a point in the sense that it's country. There's a point early in her in Dylan's career where she is working with some more established. I'm trying not to say older. but they are older than her, who've been more established in their careers, and they're kind of working on a project together, and they want to flip the tropes of, like, what is almost prescribed for what women in country write. So they're kind of wanting to flip it.

They're wanting to play with it, but also do a feminist take on it. But they also, like, that chapter or those scenes really explore the way to kind of kowow to, like, country music as a as an entity so that the music still gets made but so that it's like also like subtly they're still saying stuff to the probably mostly women who are going to catch on to it. So how did you kind of like approach crafting that part of her story? Because I thought that was really cool.

So thank you for asking about that. Yeah. I love that chapter. I came from a place of. of one of and to sort of bring things full circle here and talk about what part of the book is real and what is you know or what is drawn from life or whatever um i so that is something i love about country music that's something i'm very fond of um in dolly parton's work and you know we're talking about patty pline we're talking about loretta lynn um kitty wells these women who at a

time when it was really, really hard to not just be a woman in country, but to like talk about the things that might make being a woman period difficult. They figured out a way to just sneak their feminism into their music regardless. And so some of those songs like, you know, don't come home and drink him with love. your mind or it wasn't God who made hockey-tonk angels. These are really feminist songs that came at a time when it was not okay to say those kinds of things out loud. But something about the production, their personas, the whatever, the, the packaging made it

palatable and so palatable that if you're not listening carefully, you might not like realize that, whoa, this is a radical song. And that is really cool to me. I think that's really cool. And I just thought that in a book where I am talking about music history and the legacy of certain artists, I thought it was, I wanted to talk, I wanted to talk about that. I sort of like defining some really defining women in the genre. Yeah. It also, it reminded me of like what we've heard from like, I mean, I feel like it goes way back. Like you've been probably into the 1700s or whatever.

But how women would write stuff sometimes under men's names. Like that's been happening forever. but it was reminding me of that practice where it's like you could almost say it's not it isn't feminist that they're like putting the man's name on their own work but it's the only way that the ideas got out there and so it's like if that's a way to get the ideas out there is it worth it and it just kind of reminded me of those experiences but it is cool it's kind of unique to music that it can make something feel so palatable in a different way since there's so much else going on like I feel like there's kind of more you can pull off that way. Yeah. Yeah.

It's it's hypnotic, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it could just be catchy enough that like you just, it's catchy. So you're not thinking about some people barely think about the lyrics, even if they kind of know the lyrics in the back of their head, which is my husband. Like sometimes he'll be listening to this. I'm like, he'll be listening to something. I'm like, this is so sad. And he's like, oh, is it? Oh, my goodness. It's so sad. He's like, I don't know. I kind of like, I just like the beats, which like he also gravitates to like more melancholy music as well. So it's like, it's there. But he'll be like, oh, I didn't realize how sad it was. I'm like, it's really sad.

So it is. So it's so different. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. The other kind of unique thing with this. story is she, Dylan is also really dealing with Survivor's guilt through the whole book, is her processing that. So even though she was like 16 when her friend went missing, it was a friend that she wrote music with and kind of, her friend helped her fall in love with music too is like also the other part of it. So there's a big part of her that feels like she maybe doesn't deserve this career or that she just kind of have copied what Kelsey was wanting for herself and feels bad that Kelsey's never going to

experience that. So what what made you kind of include that in a story like this? So I wanted to write about, I wanted to write about those, that feeling, I wanted to write about imposter syndrome. Right? Yeah. That feeling of I didn't deserve this. I, it's a lot. I, It's a fluke. It's random. It's luck. I am not actually good enough. I'm actually talentless.

When is everyone going to find out that I don't belong here? Yes. And so this Kelsey's disappearance, Dylan's friend's disappearance is, and is really just like, I just like threw gasoline and a match on that feeling. I just wanted to make it as sort of big and not hyperbolic, but kind of like heightened in the creative. It's as heightened as I could. So, yeah, this is a murder mystery, kind of. Yeah.

Like, people listening, I'm wincing. But it's really, it is really a, that's just cover for. or a story about exploring, don't these feelings of creative self-doubt. Yeah. That I'm realizing that I kind of noticed that when I was reading it too, like that it is so similar to that, mostly because there's another podcast I produced called Imposter Hour with Greg Wands and Liz Keenan. And they are like, they're about like just talking about the experience of creatives and

how we feel imposter syndrome. and then also characters who are impostors or cons or kind of all of that. So I do, once you said that, I was like, oh, yeah, when I was reading it, I was thinking about how it is a different version of imposter syndrome. Like, it's probably, it's there for a lot of creatives no matter what. But it is like her survivor's guilt is a version of like, I'm not supposed to have this or was it supposed to be me or like she's working so hard on everything to compensate for the fact that maybe Kelsey had more natural talent.

Yeah, it was a really cool way to use imposter syndrome. I love that. Thank you. You're welcome. So we've talked about like the crazy fan dynamics that definitely happen. The other interesting thing you do touch on though is how there's also kind of this mentality of like, oh, poor little rich girl. like the idea that you can't that you can't complain about any aspect of your life because your life is just so much better than everyone else is which also is like kind of simplifying the idea of like even just that like having lots of money means you like can't complain about life.

I feel like it's somehow related to money too as part of where that mentality comes from. And there was it was reminding me there was I remember when Midnights came out there there is a clip from Taylor. who she even when she starts talking about anti-hero that has the, um, too big to hang out slowly lurking towards your favorite city. Like it was her talking about that concept of your life getting so oversized. And she even says something like looks at the camera's like, oh, I know, poor me, poor famous me. So like she even felt the need to do it in that context. Um, but what made you kind of include that? And you kind of show it through her relationship with another famous person where it's like, finally I can talk to someone about the downfalls.

But what made you kind of explore that, that we almost act like you're not allowed to complain? Yeah. It just feels like a really human. Well, no. I was going to say it feels like a really human thing right now. But I think I also specifically were in this moment of gratitude culture, right? So we're all tripping over ourselves to say how grateful we are all the time, to practice our gratitude, to do our daily acts of gratitude, whatever. Like, and I just, I think sometimes I wonder if sometimes that all that emphasis on gratitude, which again, I think is, I know we keep coming back to it, I think it's particularly gendered.

Right? Yes. Like my tendency to say like thank you in an email four different ways at least, right? And use an exclamation point. Like don't sound, they'll use all periods. Thank you. I'm so grateful. I appreciate you. Right. Like it's there's seven synonyms for thanks in an email I send. And that it's not that I'm not thankful. I am. But I also just wonder about. that and I think that it's possible it is always possible that multiple things can be true at once you can be very fortunate you can be very privileged you can be very grateful for all of those things you can also have baggage you can also have trauma you can also have things that are hard for you we have to be able to hold those things simultaneously yeah

It's fascinating that you say it that way because also we're located in Indy and we went to Chicago for Chelsea's event. So we were listening to an audio book on the drive there and the drive back. And it's called Rich as Fuck by Amanda Francis. And it's really a lot about changing the energy you give to money and the energy you have around it. But there was a point in the book and she narrates it too, which. is really fun, where she was like, she talks about gratitude in that sense. And she was like,

you are allowed to be really grateful for what you have and still feel like you want a fuck ton more. Like you're allowed to. And we like both looked at each other. We were like that like mark that clip. Like such a good one. Because it is. It's like it's it's it seems like they can't be true. Like you're saying like both things can't be true. But it can. Like you can still be grateful that you have food and shelter and all of that. And you can still have ambition. It doesn't make you greedy or bad. And that's like a lot of the messaging we've gotten around it. And to your point, even more for women who want more like the wanting. It's another thing this book is focusing on for anyone who thinks it sounds interesting is like not being ashamed by the things that you

want. Like it's not a bad thing to want stuff. So that's cool that that dovetails with kind of all of what you just said. Yeah. And you're also talking about, I guess I hadn't, I didn't mention that, but that's such a salient point in the novel too, that Dylan is, Dylan is incredibly ambitious. Yeah. She wants to be successful and she wants, she wants, she wants achievements.

She's focused more on, on external markers of success, kind of than she is, money. but she is incredibly ambitious and I do think that is a related that's totally a related thing where like it's you already have seven Grammys why do you want another one right?

Like or why do you still need the critics pick in the New York Times? Who cares? Like these things some it's these things matter to some people. Yeah. And it's just it's okay that it does. It's also it's also reminded me there's been like all this discourse of like Taylor releasing variants of the album that she just came out with and there will be people that are like she's releasing them all to keep other women from charting. And I just don't think we would ever say it about a man. Like I just don't think we say that stuff about we're not like he's being bitchy and just releasing them.

so that Charlie X-E-X isn't number one. Like, I just don't think we say it at all. And then also Kanye's album didn't hit number one this time. And, you know, maybe who cares if she wanted to block him? Like, I'm fine with that. But, like, it's so crazy that, like, ambition gets so villainized. I don't think Taylor's perfect. I get the vibe that Taylor doesn't think she's perfect either.

And I think we all know she's not. But, like, there's such a propensity to, to be like, look, she's not a girl's girl. Look, she's doing this. And it's like, she likes being successful. Just like probably all of the other people that are charting are like probably people who wanted to be successful. But it is.

It's like it's so sticky the way we treat women. And also the word I brought up earlier calculated. We think that gets used in a negative connotation. And I'm like, calculated is just like smart. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that's been used, you know, I mean, certainly female politicians get called calculating. Yes. I guess it is, it is a dirty word when it maybe it just means being strategic.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. And I just think everyone, if that's what you want, like, go for it. Well, obviously, I love this book. I'm really glad I got to talk with you about it. I'm also, as you probably can sell a little, fame just fascinates. me as a thing. Like it just is something I'm so curious about. And as someone who doesn't want like, I don't want fame, fame. Like, obviously I'd love this podcast. I don't want this podcast to keep growing. Like, I love the connections I'm making through it. But like my ideal version of fame would just be like I could have access to writers of movies and books. And it is, and it is there for me right now. But as someone who doesn't, I know I don't want to be recognized like every time I go somewhere.

I think that's why it's more, even more fascinating to me too, because it's not like an innate feeling I have. So I think it's even more interesting for me to think about other people who do have that feeling. So I love books about fame. So it was so fun reading yours. Yeah. Thank you so much for that. I think that I also, I think that that's a thing. I shouldn't speak for all writers or all creatives,

but I do think a lot of my friends for me, there is sort of that inherent tension, which is like we watch success in our field so that we can keep doing the thing that we love doing. But I also really, I'm a writer because I enjoy spending most of my days alone. Thank you. Yes. And so that is, there's attention there.

And so I think that's always curious about, I similarly am always, curious about like what it would take to live a more to live an extremely visible life. Yeah. Yeah. And that's reminding me the other thing that I think is always stuck out to me too is like I think more with actors too. There are a lot of introverted actors who like press tour is really difficult for them.

But it's like they love getting in character and being on set. And that is another, you knew what you were getting into when you did this career is something that people like to say to be angry at someone. And I'm always thinking about like, what if like the thing you really did want to do? Like you didn't want that other aspect of fame. However, like, this is genuinely what you want to do. And so many people will just be like, you knew what you were getting into. It's like it doesn't give people the right to be shitty to you though. Like it's just a strange reaction.

I think a lot of people, I do think if we all just step back, I think a lot of people struggle with is how do I preserve my mental health while also pursuing things I'm passionate about. Like there are those things aren't always in tandem sometimes they're at odds. And that just feels like a pretty human struggle. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's like compelling to read about and watch.

And yeah, I'm just, I'm kind of endlessly fascinated with it. Are there any books that you have read recently that you loved? Oh, great question. The evergreen question. Summer, for the great reading summer. Like everyone, I loved, Rupy Thorpe's Margo's Got Money Troubles.

Yes. I'm sure that that's already, anyone listening to this probably has already read it, but it was fantastic. I loved, was more as God of the Woods. Great. Oh, yeah. Great.

I've got to fit it in. I've had like, I'm glad I have books. I have to read for the podcast, but I haven't been able to fit in because it's like 500 pages but it's very impulsive and it takes in upstate New York where I'm from and so I knew sort of the setting which was very fun for me. Those were great. Those were great summer books and my friend Daisy Garrison, our first novel, six more months of June, came out in June and that's just

a very, very sweet teen romance for anyone who was, who kind of missed the summer I turned pretty this summer. I think that I really like the 10 months of June. Nice. That was a good range of books too. Yeah. Yeah. I love the variety. Where can people follow you to stay up to date on everything? I am on Instagram at Emily Layden. And that's it when Instagram dies, that is I will buy with it. Yeah. I feel like that's like that it's the main place that most people are. Some people ventured over on the book talk, but I think it's most like Bookstagram as well. So that works. And I'll put that link in the show notes so people can find you. And thank you so much for talking about my favorite topic, fame and your book with me.

Thank you so much for having me. I could have talked to all day. It's been a delight. Same.