Bookwild - Emma. C Wells' This Girl's a Killer: A Feminist Vigilante, Preying on Male Predators, And Chosen Family

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

This week, I got to talk with Emma C. Wells about her stunning debut serial killer thriller This Girl's a Killer! We dive into her inspiration for the book, how Cordelia was unavoidable for her, and the way women have to consider violence in ways men don't. This Girl's a Killer SynopsisAsk Cordelia Black why she did it. The answer will always be: He had it coming.Cordelia Black loves exactly three things: Her chosen family, her hairdresser (worth every penny plus tip), and killing bad men.By day she's an ambitious pharma rep with a flawless reputation and designer wardrobe. By night, she culls South Louisiana of unscrupulous men―monsters who think they've evaded justice, until they meet her. Sure, the evening news may have started throwing around phrases like "serial killer," but Cordelia knows that's absurd. She's not a killer, she is simply karma. And being karma requires complete and utter control.But when Cordelia discovers a flaw in her perfectly designed system for eliminating monsters, pressure heightens. And it only intensifies when her best friend starts dating a man Cordelia isn't sure is a good person. Someone who might just unravel everything she has worked for.Soon enough Cordelia has to come face to face with the choices she's made. The good, the bad, and the murderous. Both her family, and her freedom, depend on it. Check out Bitter Southerner where Emma got her Hell Hath No Fury shirt If you've enjoyed episode of Bookwild, an easy way to support ongoing episodes and content is to join the Bookwild Patreon.  Just $5 a month helps me spend more time on this content, and bring you more of it!  And if you're interested in Bookwild's Backlist Book Club, you can join the $10 tier and chat with the community at Book Club each month! Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

When you have a book like this, it's in you. Like, you've had experiences, and then you've seen other people's experiences and witness women you love go through things. And it just feels and it's there. And it was almost cathartic to create this woman who just had, can I cuss on here? Fuck, yeah. Okay. She has like zero fuck slap.

Yeah. She does what she thinks is right. Now, like, you know, whether it's right or not, I'll leave that up to the reader because Purdue gets pretty, she gets pretty violent. I don't think I could have avoided her. We have to constantly consider men in a way that men don't have to and often don't consider women. And what I mean by that is even if you're living your best life and you're doing everything

you want to do and you're not in a situation where you have to worry about things, in the back of our heads, we still have to consider men. We have to consider where we park. We have to consider where we're going to be. We like, we have to consider violence. You know, it's when you're a young girl going to college and you have traveling groups. It's when you get up together to the bathroom and you're not quite finished with your drink, but you're by yourself sitting somewhere. Do you, you know, do you down your drink or do you order a new one? It's when you're choosing care for an elderly family member, like a grandma at like a nursing home, you know, like, is she going to be safe here? Like it's in every stage of life and it doesn't stop.

And it's at best, it's exhausting. It's an exhausting way to be, but it's also the normalized way to be. This week I got to talk with Emma C. Wells, who is the author of a stunning debut thriller called This Girl's A Killer, a Juven a longtime fan of the podcast. podcast or even a short time fan, you probably know how much we love some female rage over here at Book Wild. So I was so excited to read this book. I was flying through it. I was battling sleep trying to get through it. It is one of my favorites of 2024 for sure. But this is what it's about. Meet Cordelia Black. Cordelia loves exactly three things. Her chosen family composed of her best friend Diane and her goddaughter, her hairdresser, worth every penny plus tip, and killing bad men.

By day, she's a successful pharmaceutical rep with a pristine reputation and a designer wardrobe. By night, she's calling South Louisiana of unscrupulous men, monsters who always seem to evade justice until they meet her. It's a complicated yet fulfilling life that requires complete and total control at all times. But when the evening news starts throwing around the word serial killer, pressure heightens for her in the South, and it's only exacerbated when Diane starts dating a man, Cordelia is sure isn't a good person, someone who might unravel everything Cordelia has worked for. Soon Cordelia's world spirals, and she loses grip on those tightly held threads that kept her safe. I, in my review of this book, if you've already seen my reviews, you've already heard me say this, but not only is this like a female dexter because we have kind of like a vigilantee, female killing bad men. The inner monologue is so snarky. And then I also started to realize,

like, I haven't watched Dexter in years. And I was like, oh, he was one of those OG snarky characters I was attracted to before I knew how much I love snarky characters. So I was so impressed with the different world building she did to make Cordelia's life possible and how Cordelia is just a total badass. We dive into. to where she got the idea for the book, how she wrote the book, how she deals with being a writer with ADHD. And we also get to celebrate because the day that we recorded, she hit the USA Today bestsellers list. So I cannot wait for you to hear from Emma. Let's dive in. I am so excited to talk about this girl's a killer.

Anyone who has listened to this podcast for any amount of time knows how much I love a ragey, female and how much we love revenge. So when I saw this book synopsis, I was like, holy shit, I have to read this book. So I'm super excited to talk about it. I did want to get to know a little bit about you first. So when did you know you wanted to write a book or when were you like, I think I want to be an author? Okay. Well, it's actually interesting because I've always loved books. I grew up in a, you know, I wrote a thing for like, I think library journal, no, one of, one of the library things. And I talked about like my childhood, basically we played jump rope with the poverty line. So, you know, I was born to teenage parents in the rural South. And we didn't

have a lot of money. And most of my childhood, we didn't have cable. My grandma did. I'd go to her house and watch cartoons and stuff. But we had books. And we had books. And we had. were always in the library and books were my way to escape just not because like anything other than like boredom. I was constantly bored. I had ADHD and I can dissociate like a champ, like Olympic level. Same. And books kind of like help me do that. And I was really young when it kind of clicked that, hey, I could, I could do this. but I didn't know anybody. It was kind of like saying, I want to be a singer.

Like when a little girl's like, I want to be Taylor Swift. Well, one of the little girls is going to be, but you never know. You don't think you're going to be able to do that things like that. Not to equate with what I'm doing with Taylor Swift. Like that was a bad analogy, but you know what I mean? It was the same like out there. I mean, why not? It was the same like probability.

Everybody I knew worked in like, like, like a secondary or. or, you know, my grandma was a switchboard operator, like one of the very last ones before that job went away. My mom eventually went back to college and became a nurse. So these were the jobs that were possibilities. I didn't even know anybody that was like an academic, you know. So I always wanted to write stories. My parents are both pretty creative and would make up bedtime stories. So I was surrounded by storytellers.

My uncles are hilarious. It was always telling the stories. But again, I never thought, I know I'm rambling, sorry. I never thought it was something that I would actually. You're not. But I was that nerdy kid that looked forward to like the essay question on our test because I would get to like tell you all about swimming pools and what I thought about them or dogs or whatever it was.

And I would just forever go. And I'm still like that. I write way too much and have to cut it down and find the fly. and turn it into something. But it wasn't until I was probably, I don't know, like in my 20s, I wanted to do it, but I was in a position where it was like, no, girl, you've got to do something that has an end. Like, you know how much money you're going to make, right? Right.

And so that's kind of what I did, but it was always this dream. And then probably my mid-20s, late 20s, I started writing and actually getting. serious about trying to get better at it and like I wrote a lot of awful things um and then yeah there there was a point where I was going back to college um at this point I had been several times and dropped out because it just wasn't working for me for different reasons and And at this point, I was, I had a discussion with one of my creative writing teachers. And basically, I was like struggling. I was working.

I was a mom. I was trying to make school work. And I had like the most supportive spouse ever. But it was still just a lot for me. I know there's some women that can do it and make it look easy. Unfortunately, I were all different. I can do one day and do it good. Yes.

So she basically was like, well, Emma, do you want to teach? And I was like, no, God, no. I'm not. I think it's amazing when people can teach. Yes. If the pandemic has taught me anything from having kids at home that I had to homeschool for a little bit, is that that is, I can't do that. So she was like, if you want to write, just write.

And I'm not saying it's going to be easy. I'm not saying that it's going to not be like a lot of hard work involved that you're going to like miss step. But if this is what you want to do, don't go and there's value in the degree. There absolutely is if that's a accessible path for you. But you don't have to force it go into a lot of debt. And like there's other ways, especially because I was a non-traditional student who already had a career. And I was like, okay, but even then it didn't feel real until, I don't know, like in 2017, I got into pitch wars and kind of connected with a lot of other authors who were on many different paths. And I would say that is kind of when it really got really real for me.

And I kind of decided to just almost bulldog it for lack of a better time. Oh my God, I'm telling you way more than what you asked. No, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, there's not water in here. It's cold brew. So there's, there's not water in here. It's cold brew. So there's going to be a lot of talking. Well, okay.

Well, what I always tell people is the point of a podcast, especially when you're the person being interviewed, is for you to talk. Like, we want to hear that. And I also think it's really important for some of our listeners are aspiring on. authors or are writers themselves. And I think a lot of us, I mean, I can count myself in that category. I think a lot of us think there is one route to it. And I think a lot of us think, like you're saying, that it's like such a lofty goal and only so many people can do it. And so part of, I feel dumb, like for a long time when I would talk to other authors. And this

was they didn't make me feel dumb. This was like internalized stuff from having like a learning disability. Right. The 90s. Um, yeah. Like everybody, it felt like a lot of people had like an MFA, which is amazing. My sister is an academic. I love her. I think if it works for you and that is a possibility, do it. But it's not the only way. And you're not dumb if you don't do it that way. And then like I said, it's not like you're going to be like, oh, I'm not going to go learn how do this i'm just going to the first draft now right it's perfect no you're still going to have to fail a lot you're going to have to fail up that's the other way to do it to fail upward do it bad and then do it better and then just keep going until you don't really suck but the secret is you'll always think you

suck but other people will tell you don't yeah yeah i'm just always going to be there and you do have to you have to be bad at something to get good at it. I think that's a thing that stops a lot of people from trying any new thing. Yeah. I like, and one of my friends who also has ADHD and also is like a high oldest daughter. And it's also a writer. We talk about that all the time.

We're like, doesn't it suck how you can't just immediately be good at something that you know that you could be good at? Like, you're our own. worst stumbling blocks right we are we really are um but within that topic i think it's i think it's good for people to see something i've brought up through all these episodes i've done is it's been really cool to learn that there's not one way to write a book and there's actually like more than like 200 ways to write a book actually like everyone has some really different processes and i think you can learn a lot from craft books or courses and all of that but then you're ultimately going to have to pick and

choose what's working for you um so specifically as a writer with ADHD um did you find any tricks that help you write okay let me tell you so I learned by doing um which means I did a lot of really bad writing in the beginning. But I read, I feel like when you read a lot, for a lot of people, you kind of internalize what works. Even if you can't put your finger on why something works, you know, okay, that's good. But as far as like craft books and things, there are some really helpful, helpful items out there.

But I find that it helps sometimes to use them differently. we all are we all think different the way we learn is so different and for me if I read a craft book and I went in and I had a story idea and it was like my brain would just shut down it was like this is homework you're not good at this let's stop so for me I feel like I can listen to the audio of a craft book like an audiobook or I can do like save the craft writes a novel they actually have like a computerized course that worked for me. But even then, I listen to the whole thing and then I outline and do my thing. And then after I go back and I try to like plug it in.

But if I try to do my work as I am working through a particular craftbook, I just, it's like every ounce of creativity leaves my mind. And I'm like, what am I even doing? But I'll tell you another thing that this is a really funny story. I think it's funny, but it might be. Yeah. So Jesse Q. Sutanto, who wrote like Dali for Aunties, um, like, she's written like a lot of really good stuff. Yeah, she's written pillars. Of course, I want to podcast every book title is okay. It's okay. And follow her on Instagram because she has a very interesting, it's not craft. It's not how to, like, how to get better at your word, you know, writing with the book.

But it's about how to actually get the book done. And it was probably the first time advice just immediately resonated with me. And I was like, this works. I don't know why this works for me, but this works. And she has it in her stories on Instagram, her whole process. She writes a book in like a few months. Like it's wild. And it doesn't, she doesn't spend all day on it.

And I was like, this works. I don't know why it works. It's amazing. Thank you, Jesse Cous Dantto. And then. The other day she posted and she was like, just got diagnosed with ADHD. And I was like, yes, I've been following this. That's the why it works.

And I reached out. Like, this makes so much sense to me now. Yeah. She does a lot of things in like short bursts and then she like moves. And that that really helps me be creative. But the minute something feels like desk work a lot of times. Like, I can sit down and hammer out 3,000 words, but does it even matter if only 300 of them or any good, you know? Yeah.

No, I feel you. My husband has ADHD and we were literally just having this conversation last night because he's been going to a coffee shop to edit. We basically like create content for our clients. and you and I talked about this too. I'm on the autistic spectrum. So for me, I need as minimal distractions as possible. I love being able to sit still in one moment and like burn through stuff. And so, but for him, he's getting more work done by going somewhere where there are other people

and he can look at other people and he can talk to people and then he can work in short bursts and all of that. So I think it's really important to. to just back to our conversation about you can write a book in a lot of different ways. I think it's so important to figure out the best way that works for you, whether you're writing a book or not. Yeah, and then do that on purpose. Like, like Dolly Parton said, figure out who you are and be her on purpose. Like, find out the way the work works for you to do that.

And then don't feel bad if you're not doing, like, the way ever, like, whatever. the new trendy thing is, if that doesn't work for you, it's okay. It doesn't make you less of a writer or a creator or whatever. Yeah, I have ADHD and my sister is autistic and my son is odd ADHD. Like he's autistic and has ADHD. And so there's like a lot of overlap there. But then there's a lot of things that just are like completely. Yes.

Make for one way of thinking that doesn't work for another. I feel like with ADHD, we need to fall into that sweet, sweet hyperfocus. But we also have to be a little, a little bit distracted. Like if it's too quiet, that's almost noisy. I don't know how to, I don't know how to explain that. But it can be distracting. Yeah, that's his experience too. And you're right.

There's overlap, like the hyperfixations, like getting super interested in a certain subject or sometimes like, as we'll get into with your character and overdevelop sense of justice, like, both have that in common. But then it's like you're saying, like, with ADHD, it's like, I need stimulation that's changing all the time. And then my being on the autistic spectrum, I'm like, can I have noise cancelling headphones on everywhere I go? Look, I feel you though. I love my noise cancelling headphones. I just have to put something really quietly in the background.

I can hear the one thing. Yeah. So what was your inspiration for this girl's a killer? Oh, God. It's kind of hard to say when you write a book like this because I, you know, I don't think, Cordelia, there's a lot of me in here, but there's a lot of just that's not me in here. But at the time, I had to write about this for Barnes & Noble. And it was actually very hard for me to come up.

Like I know in my head, but it was very hard for me to put it into words that makes sense. And I think that's because when you have a book like this, it's in you. Like you've had experiences and then you've seen other people's experiences and witness women you love go through things. And it just feels and it's there. and it was almost cathartic to create this woman who just had, can I cuss on here? Fuck yeah. Okay, she has like zero fucks laugh. Yeah.

She does what she thinks is right. Now, like, you know, whether it's right or not, I'll leave that up to the reader because Perdue gets pretty, she gets pretty violent, but she's confident in it. It was kind of cathartic. And I think when I was writing the blog post for Barnes & Noble, and that was pretty much the thing, like where I got the idea for the story and anti-heroes. And I settled on, like, I don't think I could have avoided her.

Like, she kind of come from that place beside where we're just, like, we have to constantly consider men in a way that men don't have to and often don't consider women. And what I mean by that is even if you're living your best life and you're doing everything you want to do and you're not in a situation where you have to worry about things in the back of our heads, we still have to consider men. We have to consider where we park. We have to consider where we're going to be. We like we have to consider violence. And I'm not being one of those people who are like, pass this chain around Facebook before you get abducted in Target.

Like that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like, you know, it's when you're a young girl going to college and you have traveling groups. It's when you get up to go to the bathroom and you're not quite finished with your drink, but you're by yourself sitting somewhere. Do you, you know, do you down your drink or do you order a new one? It's when you're choosing care for an elderly family member, like a grandma at like a nursing home, you know, like are, like, is she going to be safe here? Like it's in every stage of life and it doesn't stop and it's at best it's exhausting. It's an exhausting way to be, but it's also the normalized way to be. And I think just it didn't hit me.

I was probably way too old when it hit me. Like these girls now, man, they're figuring stuff out a lot younger and it's awesome. But like I come from like a girl. I have sisters, girl cousins, and my husband comes from a boy house and just seeing the way that he interacts with the world because he's like a complete wife guy golden retriever. But like also he can park wherever he wants. He can walk across a creepy ass park a lot and it doesn't it doesn't even cross is not. Like he's he's alert, but he's not like worried. You know. And I'm like I have to know all of these things.

before I go somewhere. Not like I said, not because I'm a person that lets it necessarily negatively influence my actions, but whether we realize it or not, we are constantly having to observe and make decisions based on that. Yes. Yeah. Girl, I tell you, I lose the plot. I start talking. You did it. I feel like what you're saying is the book, the book and inspiration came out of the fact that women have to feel that way and think that way. Because Cordelia absolutely does not. She uses that. She uses all of that and the way she, all the things that we do, she uses that when she's like hunting or whatever. She's like the real alert of where people are, of the people that are like clocking her. And kind of plays into it. And honestly, I think

that's why so many people, so many women, and, you know, other people also have resonated with her, even though she is a serial killer with a fascination for blood and who does some pretty gnarly things, you can still, there's still parts of her that you're like, oh, yeah, no, I get that. I can relate. Yes. Well, and a lot of female rage stories, especially in thriller, it is about the fantasy of like feeling that powerful as well, like as that character. And something I really loved in the book, she doesn't think she's a serial killer. So there you have a quote in there where she's kind of like thinking about herself. Am I any better than the predators that I put down if I enjoy the process?

The answer, yes, I am and was and always would be better because what I did was important. And so she, like, cringes at the word serial killer when, like, it's starting to be on the news. She feels like she's that ridding the world of bad men is her life's calling. And I love that so much about her. Was that part of your idea from the beginning that, like, to herself, she's not a serial killer? Yeah, absolutely. A lot changed in different rewrites of this book. But that the way that Cordelia sees herself her belief about who she is never changed because I'm very much a character first writer which is probably one of the plot in conversations I'll lose it in my book too but and it was very important for me to create this it kind of flip

this serial killer trope on its head or serial killer delivering justice trope and like I'm not the only one to do this so I'm not like taking credit as like this groundbreaking thing now there's amazing authors who have written similar books but um for an example though if you read like the dexter books or you see the dexter show which I love I think it's great I actually didn't watch it until after I had written my book because I didn't wow too much yeah yeah I had to pitch it so I was like well I knew what it was it's it's kind of like if you've never breaking bad, you know what breaking bad is. It was the same thing.

Like I used taste there was a killer that killed killers. But one very interesting thing about him, especially in the books, is the reason he kills killers is because he has to kill and he might as well take out the trash. Well, Cordelia is like the opposite. She enjoys it. But it's not like, I enjoy this. So I might as well take out the trash. it's more like she feels compelled to do this thing because these people are so bad and there are like

there's predators and violence enacted against vulnerable people that's nothing's ever going to happen to the people that did it so she feels called to like like she says like the universe god her inner self whatever you want to call it she feels like she was put here to handle that and the fact that she enjoys it is just a bonus that even if she didn't like it, she would still freaking do it. But she does like it, so it all works out and she's good at it.

But she struggles, I think, to see herself as a serial killer because she sees a killer as kind of maybe similar to the people that she is putting down or whatever. Whereas in her eyes like that's not her she has a reason the reason she's doing her thing is to even though she's doing something violent it is to stop harm it is not to harm if that makes sense correct yeah she is taking wrong in her head like she's not perfect but that's her like that's where she's coming from with it yeah she um very much believes and she is getting rid

of predators and people who prey on women and children and all of that. And before we hopped on, you just found out that you made the USA Today best sellers list. And for everyone who's listening, we are recording this on November 6th after the election results. So how empowering does it feel to be on that list this week? It's complicated for me, honestly. Like, it was, God, why I'm emotional? I have cried with people on this podcast. We cry sometimes.

I never thought that I would make a list. Like, well, first, I never thought I'd get a book published. And then I never thought, well, I never thought I'd write a book. And then I never thought I'd get an agent. I never thought I'd get a book deal. But I'm also very hard-headed. and I just, I'm like, whatever, you know, somebody's got to do it. It might as well be me, but I never really in my heart thought that I would do these things.

And then for the book to be so well received, that I make a list, I feel like ordinarily I would be just beside myself celebrating, freaking out. But finding out today was really kind of hard. Like, it was good. It was good. And I know it's going to sink in and I'm going to feel super happy. But when you write a book about a woman who fights against predators, and then it's so well received, you make a list on, you find out on the same day when you find out the person that we,

as a country, have chosen as our leader, has been accused of being a predator. It's weird. It's a lot. it's like on the one hand i'm not going to let i'm going to feel my joy because i've earned this and i'm not going to let like a bad person take that from me but on the other hand it's like uh like nothing it's hard for anything good to like really sink in too much today yeah yeah does that make sense i really i can write a whole book about a fictional character but when i have to

talk about like my own emotions and thoughts it's like immediately like the curtain closes and I'm like how do you feel anything what is what is feelings yeah no it is hard what I think is empowering about it is to at least know that even before he was elected a story like this was recognized as a book that was deserved to be published and in this whole conversation where book bands have also been discussed even more this year. I think it's even more important that we still have these stories out there of like women, even if it's vigilante, even if it's played up, the violence is played up, but even if it's fantasy for some of us, because you feel very empowered when you're in her mind. I think it's, I just love that these

books are still going to be out there. Yeah. And there's it's I feel like there has been an influx in like feminine rage stories. And I think that's a good thing. I think that that shows like, you know, we want to see women in these roles. We want to see ourselves as the not only like the hero of a story. but like the anti-hero of a story. We want to see messy women doing things, good things and bad things. We want these fog characters, but we want these strong characters. And there's been, I mean, strong women characters have existed for a long time. I don't want to, like, insinuate anything. But, like, particularly with serial killers and in crime fiction, there's been,

a lot more, I think, in recent years, which makes me happy. I mean, obviously, I like it. Yeah, me too. So the other thing that kind of defines Cordelia is her relationship with her friend Diane and Diane's daughter, Sugar. And that defines a lot of her motivations. Were you, did you always want that really strong female friendship to be a core part of this story. Yes, I do. I did. That's been there since the beginning. I do want to touch on

one thing, though, because Cordelia is Diane's best friend, and Diane, wait, Diane is, how do I say it? Cordelia is Diane's best friend, and Diane is Cordelia's best friend. But it's a little toxic because Cordelia knows everything about Diane, but Diane doesn't know Cordelia is a serial killer. And Cordelia, it almost borders on obsession because this is the only person that's ever loved her. And that is the most important thing to her. Like, she's never had that, like that kind of love. And so she will literally do anything for this person. Like, she is so wrapped up.

And like there's a moment where it's really hard to not give spoilers. I know. But he's considering, like, if Diane found out who she was, could she even do anything about it? Because she could never hurt her. And, like, if anything ever happened to Diane, I feel like Cordelia would be done so. It is very much, it is, it is very much, it's a little toxic. It is very, uh, codependent. But it's also a lot of love there, you know?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, she does. She is, she wants to protect both of them in an extreme amount. Oh, and they go to a sugar, like Samantha, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, they're very intertwined. But, I mean, in some ways, it's like there's probably safety in that relationship, since it is two women, essentially. So she's always, she's going to feel safe there in a way she wouldn't with men. obviously. The thing about Cordelia is I don't think she ever feels unsafe. I mean, she can register if she's not safe.

And she registers when things are falling apart. Like, I need to do something about this. But she's a little broken in that way. She never, like, if she has a spot, like, immediately, like, if something happens, she'll often consider, like, how is this going to impact, like, her family? it's going to how's it going to impact diana is mantha um because she feels like she can handle anything she's like you know if she goes to jail it would not be great she would not like to wear an orange jumpsuit it would completely wash her out it would be horrible the food's bad but she's

she thinks she's a bad bitch and she thinks that event she would be okay um which if that's true or not who knows but that's what corda thinks about herself right totally you know yeah and um Also, when I created Diane, I kind of wanted her to be like the anti-Cordelia. We don't get inside of Diane's head. And externally, they look like they have a lot more in common, but we get deep in Cordelia's point of view. So we know how she really is. But because I wanted to show, you know, I feel like Diane's a little bit of a badass too. And I wanted to show that there's a lot of ways.

I feel like a lot of times women are pitted against each other. Oh, you want to have kids. Oh, you don't want to have kids. Oh, you want to be in a relationship. You don't need to be in a relationship. because they're both very different. Like Diane's a mom. She wants to find her person and get married.

Like that's literally her dream is to keep working in her job. She likes. Meet somebody that she can fall in love with. Maybe have another kid. Maybe not. Very like very traditional domestic, not like tribe wife, but like very traditional dream. Yes. And Diane is like that is my, I mean, Cordelia is like that is literally my nightmare.

Like, no, thank you. I don't want that, but they still love each other, you know, and that was important to me. Yeah. I love that. There was, I recently interviewed Marjan Kamali for the line women of Tehran. And it was the same thing where like she really wanted to have these two characters who were very distinct and one is extremely politically active and facing the regime that was taking women's rights away in Iran in the late 60s. in the 70s. And the other is still forging her own path and, like, has a career, but is, like, very scared of being politically active. And it doesn't mean that she's not feminist either. And I loved, she and I had a similar conversation where it was like, I see myself in both women. And I think it's important to always keep that definition really broad, kind of like your sense. Yes. Yes. We, I mean, If your feminism isn't for, you know, all women, LGBTQIA, cis straight, like all races, creeds, then it's not feminism.

It's, you know, it's white feminism. It's like a cult. It's not. Yep. Totally. The other really cool thing about Cordelia is she, if you feel like this is a spoiler, we can just skip this. but she takes the blood of her victims and turns it into beautiful artwork that she keeps in her house. And I thought this was such a cool aesthetic choice. And I was wondering how you came up with it. It's kind of like a feminine flip on serial killer trophies. You know what is really funny about this. I keep saying that everything's really funny.

But what's really interesting to me about this is, As I wrote this, I wasn't thinking about like the trophy thing until I wrote it. And then I was like, damn it, that's her trophy. That's what she's doing. And then like I leaned into it, like when I was editing. Because like Cordelia and Diane's origin story is they met at college. They were both art majors. And they both like went their separate ways and like ended up majoring in different things.

But they met as art majors. And they have like this overlap. And what's also funny is the author is, I don't know if Cordelia is a good artist or not. But I know Cordelia thinks she is, but I also know, like, Diane thinks she's good at her arts and crafts. And we know that Cordelia secretly thinks Diane's arts and crafts are hideous. So I don't know if Cordelia literally has these, like, gorgeous paintings in her house or if it's, like, God-awful. But she's just, like, yes, amazing. And I would, you know, and we know.

I love that perspective. Like, I'll go back and forth on it because in my head, like, she's. She mixes blood with paint. And I don't feel like this is boiler. We find out pretty early on. She mixes blood with paint. And she creates art. And in my mind, it's not like a painting, like where, you know, you see like a person or a house.

It's more abstract than that. And also in my mind, there's just like a shit ton of these paintings in our house. Like, they're all over the place. We know, like, when people visit, there's a scene where someone visits, and, like, they know this one and are, like, commenting on it. And she's like, oh, yeah. But in her head, we can see she's thinking of the person, like, who the painting belonged to, a sign to. I don't know. The person was making the source of the painting.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I loved it. And I looked at for her. And I have a friend. Two of my real life good friends. One is a therapist and one is an artist.

And I feel like I picked their brains so much during this book because I'm like, I love art, but I love to go to museums. I love to look at it. I love to buy at arts markets. But I'm not. That is a talent I do not possess at all. I was recently signing books in the suite. woman asked me she was like i want you to draw a picture of your favorite animal and i'm like do you like snakes because i think i can draw snake because i could draw that

a head with a line on it looking more like a tad yeah you're like suddenly the snake became my favorite animal right like i'm like you don't know what you're asking me to do yeah yeah we were we were talking about how you were saying even you don't think cordelia feels very very unsafe very often where she may realize she's in danger but she doesn't feel it and there's this really cool sentence in the book that I like want on a t-shirt and it says once upon a time I'd been a broken girl unable to protect herself from the scary things now I was the scary thing just love it I just got chills rereading it um how how did you approach creating cordelia's backstory that felt really believable

It was difficult to kind of go there. But I also thought what would make a woman feel so strongly about protecting others? And she would have to have like a personal tie to it. I mean, not like we all want to protect people, but like this is the extreme, right? And I knew I didn't want to spend too much. much time, like writing, like giving it too much page space as far as like in details, like the horrible things that she experienced. But I wanted the reader to like, no, hey, this woman has been through some stuff. And people that were supposed to protect her didn't.

And people that were supposed to love her didn't. And that's why like it's kind of shaped every, it's definitely shaped her worldview. And it's also shaped how she interacts with the world. And like her decision making like it all kind of comes back to that um she basically the reason she is who she is now not even like the serial killer part but just like outwardly like she's very much a controlling type person she has to have all her ducks in a row every hair and lace and it's because when she was younger she would see these women like picking up her classmates from school or places and she was like nothing bad can happen to them and we know that's not true bad things can happen to anybody but that was something she observed at a young age and kind of

internalized and so she kind of spent her life for like in like this metamorphosis to become like who she is um and then used that to her ability to almost I wouldn't say be invisible, but to be the, to look like the type of woman that would, you would never say, oh, she's probably a serial killer. Not that we're going around with the point, random women say in their serial killers. But it was, it was, it was all who she was very much, as I think this does for all of us, what she went through very much informed who she is and who she is, is very deliberate, if that thing is.

Like, she didn't accidentally become this woman that's got her shit together that kills bad people. Like, it's very much a path. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Did I even answer the question? You did.

You totally did. Okay. Listen, I can talk to other people about their books all day long and ask questions. But I'm telling you, it's so weird to be on this end of things. Yeah. I mean, I love it. You're amazing. You're making it possible.

But yeah. I get it. It's probably hard to target because it's like there's so much of the world of the book in your head, too. It's probably some of it. Yeah. At the time it becomes a book, you've written it and rewritten it and you've done edits. And like a lot of, like when you do edits, you're usually doing the way it works. For me, it's like it's different pieces.

And then like you'll read it all together again. but it's not like you're going through the book front to end every time. And so sometimes I have to think, okay, what did I cut out of this? What did I? Right. What did I leave that, you know? Yep. I bet.

That makes sense. Yeah. There's a lot more. You talk about hyper fixation and like research. Let me tell you. There was a lot more. When I was having to research how she does these. kills and how she collects this blood this is your your listeners are probably oh no this is all

thriller podcast so okay okay i went down some deep rabbit holes not about not about people i wasn't friends i was not searching on the internet how to bleed out a person but just in general like talking to people i know i was talking to someone i know who is actually an avid hunter and all on the page. And my poor agent, who is so sweet, I'm like her, I think her only thriller writer, and she is actually a romance writer herself. She's just like, Emma, you know, you can kind of nudge us in the right direction, and we can fill into blanks. And I was like, oh, okay. I mean, yeah, it was very detailed. It was very detailed. But hopefully. But hopefully. I left in just the right amount, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I loved it. The other thing I loved about Cordelia is her very snarky inner monologue. That's something I talk about a lot on this podcast, how a snarky narrator or main character can just sell me on a book immediately. Did she kind of like come to you that way or how did you develop her snarkiness? Yeah, I'm pretty. I'm pretty much, like, friendly, but my inner monologue to myself is like, I can be like the biggest bitch to myself. Yes.

Like, girl, get your shit together. And some of the people that I love most in life, like, are pretty snarky people. I don't know why. Like, that just works for me. Like, I think it's hilarious. And I think that I don't know where it come from. That's just always who she was, like when I imagined her or brainstormed the character and made list because I'm a huge list maker.

She was always a little snarky. And part of that is because I really you know, like Cordelia is the main character, but Diane's like I feel like the second big character in the book. And I like that banter. I like that friendship

banter. I love that when friends say stuff to each other and like you know you're joking but you're just completely dry. And if anybody else hurt you that are they fighting? But you know you're not like that's just you're being dumb like you're with your friends and so that's what I wanted I knew I wanted them to have mm-hmm oh she just kind of grew from there which is interesting because we see it in

her head and we see it when she talks to Diane but when she like has to adopt these other personas to go like hunting for these monsters she's like completely different she like holds herself in or whatever box she needs to be in to um to catch her prey, for lack of a better word. And it was really fun playing with the version of herself she was showing to the world versus what we saw she was thinking in her head. And I just really wanted to like have that contrast there. Yes.

But and then also like as a woman, how many times have we like growing up, like even if we were to not do it anymore, where we just like, you know, you had to be kind or you had to be sweet. On the inside, you were literally screaming, you know, like whether a male teacher or like a coach or whatever, like maybe at your job and you're just like, okay, yeah, let me, let me do that for you. And inside you're just like, yes, that's what, that reminds me just randomly. there's a book called Unmasking Autism that I read a couple of months ago. It's really good, but what it also touches on is like for years, we thought of it as like little boys being like the only one's getting diagnosed with it. And that a lot of it, they feel like now is because of what you just said, is that girls, whether they're autistic or not, are expected to mask way more frequently than boys are. So of course, we weren't getting diagnosed as females, with that stuff because like I may not be great at eye contact but I can make myself do it because

I've been told to do it and I can smile and I can defer to people if I need to and all of that. Because it's okay to intimidate little girls. It's okay to you're going to do this or whatever. And so you kind of like a self-preservation thing and like when you grow up with that, it's hard to it's a whole trip and I hope kids that are diagnosed with neurodivergence now maybe

things are changing a little bit yeah on doing that as an adult and trying to figure out how much of your authentic self is your authentic self and how much is like literally this thing you've created to show the world because that's how you

pretend to be a human or whatever you know and the false self stuff is difficult it's definitely and in a way it's not the same but I kind of poke at that a little bit I think in the book in a different way using using her experience like I don't know I don't want to misspeak because I don't want to like accidentally upset any because I'm not saying yeah yeah yeah but but it is if you're neurodivergent and you've masked and you grew up and you've and you've had to be a certain way and then you don't anymore it was kind of a way to explore that a little bit without

saying hi this character without telling the story of that it was a way to explore it if that means sense yeah I agree I totally agree because I felt I I had a lot in common with her. I have not yet killed anyone, but her sense of justice really reminds me of how riled up I get about that kind of stuff. She doesn't really have a gray area. It's like good or bad for her. And if it's good, it's great. And if it's bad, it's terrible.

Yeah. It really is. Well, I loves it, obviously. I've posted about it. anyone who listens to this podcast knows that all kinds of themes or structures or character traits that we love are in are in it so I think everybody needs to go read it especially especially given everything that's happening right now so definitely need to do that is is there where should people follow you to stay up to date um honestly I think I have all my social media

handles but if you really want to like kind of keep up with things i'm on instagram the most i do have a substack that i haven't started yet that maybe i should i'm a little intimidated by it it's so much easier to write a book than it is to write about having written a book um yeah but you can join that i plan on doing some sort of giveaway eventually but but instagram i make silly things on TikTok. I talk a lot. Well, not a lot, but I talk. TikTok is more of a mashup. I talk about like ADHD and writing as well as the book. And then Instagram is more book news and just like funny stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I think of one of those places. I remember I have a Facebook. I forget it exists. So sometimes I go. So do I. I was there. I'm like, oh, hey, I just realized my Instagram is still

posting to Facebook stories and I was like I don't need it to be doing that right hey honestly oh I'll like remember and log in because there's a couple of groups that I'm in that I just lurk around to get like book wrecks and things like that so I'll log in like once a month on my Facebook and my notifications list is this longer I'm like what are people even And it's all because of Instagram cross-posting. Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah.

I just figured, I just finally last night figured out how to disconnect it because I was like, this is admin. I don't want to do it. But yeah, I will put all those links in the show notes for everyone so they can follow you. And thanks so much for talking with me and for writing this wonderful book. I'm so happy that you reached out to me and that you enjoyed the book so much. That makes me so happy.

Hey, can I say one more thing? So I got this shirt. It says, Hell Hath No Fury. I got it from a website called Bitter Souther. And they spell different shirts and proceeds from different ones go. It's basically like for a better south go to different organizations. And this one actually, a portion of the proceeds go to benefit women's health and reproductive rights. But they have several different like snobes.

darky awesome shirts and it says on there like what they benefit so if you like that's my thing check out they are like did not send me this shirt for free and like this is just me like I love it and I love them basically yes everybody I am sure there are going to be a couple people that buy that buy from this little promo we just decided to add in it felt appropriate today you know it's very appropriate Thank you.