Bookwild - Exploitation, Empowerment and Enlightenment: Courtney Kocak's Girl Gone Wild

Episode Date: April 1, 2026

In this episode, I chat with Courtney Kocak about her debut memoir Girl Gone Wild!  She shares how it is both a personal reckoning and a cultural critique, tracing her journey from a “too much” small-town girl to a woman navigating ambition, sexuality, religion, and creative identity. She reflects on how early influences—strict religious messaging, shame around the body, and a lack of role models—shaped her relationship to power, pleasure, and self-worth, while her experiences in Hollywood and the entertainment industry reveal the harsh realities behind the myth of “making it.”  Listen to hear about: How the memoir evolved over 15+ years, requiring both craft development and personal growth to fully process her past experiences How early religious and cultural messaging created deep tension between bodily autonomy and imposed shame The empowerment vs. exploitation dynamic for young women, especially in entertainment The way Hollywood’s success narrative often hides the economic struggle, privilege, and sacrifices required to sustain creative work How Kocak shifted from chasing external validation and fame to prioritizing artistic fulfillment and an integrated, authentic identity Learn more about Courtney or purchase Girl Gone Wild here Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This we got to talk with Courtney Kosak, who is the author of Girl Gone Wild, which is her first memoir and also kind of a series of essays as well about her experience growing up in the Midwest and then having dreams of succeeding in Hollywood. Here is the literal description of it. Girl Gone Wild is a collection of exploits and delusions about chasing your dreams with reckless abandon and what happens when their pursuit becomes a new kind of trap. In this memoir and essays, Kosak takes readers along on her heady metamorphosis from girl to woman and from dreamer to professional artist as she is transformed in this unwitting feminist coming of age. It's a wild, cringeworthy, and often heartbreaking tale. With Kosak's wry wit and clear-eyed accounting, it's nothing short of captivating. I loved this.

I really, really enjoyed the way she handled lots of different topics. If you've been listening for a while, you've heard, me talk about girl on girl by Sophie Gilbert, which is how pop culture turned a generation of women against each other. And this feels like a memoir slash essay compilation that fits so perfectly with that one and really deals with a lot of the same themes. So if you are interested in the nuance of how people talk about women, how women's bodies are talked about and legislated, and how there are nuances to sex work. It's not just good and it's not just bad for certain people.

I think you'll really enjoy our conversation. So let's hear from Courtney. This one was fascinating. I kept having, coincidentally, there was a nonfiction book I read last year called Girl on Girl. And I kept having so many moments where I was like, oh, this is like a memoir companion to that book, basically. Oh, that's so interesting. I love that. Yeah. There's just so much. And I think it's because it's kind of the same time frame, too, like the early 2000s is like what that book focuses on too. And just the way that we talk about women in their bodies. So it all emerges together. So I feel like I kind of know what got you to the point of wanting to write this book. But for the listeners, what kind of like brought you to the moment where you were like, I'm going to write a book.

about this. Well, I had a pivot from at my lifelong dream to be an actor to writing at about 27. And around that time, I was reading Cheryl Strait. I read tiny beautiful things. I read wild. I was obsessed with just like her poignant, plain spoken prose. And still, she's still like the number one legend in my heart. Yeah. And so I think, you know, the nugget was kind of planted then. And, you know, it was 15 years since writing like the first non-academic essay of my adulthood, really just trying to get over a breakup.

Right. And realizing like, oh, my God, I need this to process all these things that I've been through. And then I went on this long journey of getting good enough to write the book craft wise, getting wise enough to write the book as a person. And I really started in earnest in like 2020 working on the book. And then I finished a draft that year. And I finished a full like kind of the bones of the book that exists today at the end of 2023. and then I've just been revising ever since. I think, you know, processing the Girls Gone Wild experience for me,

I initially wrote an essay about that in 2012, so like seven years after the experience. And I never, I like, it never left me, you know, it wasn't like I wrote that and I was done with it. It was, it just, as I began writing more essays, I realized. like, oh my God, this is in conversation with all these other experiences that I've had. Yes. And then in 2020, when I was in an incubator working on the book, everyone that was, you know, like my classmates were like, all your writing is so feminist. And I was like, I don't even think of it like that.

Yeah. That's so interesting. And so I just kind of, I think, leaned into that thematically. Yeah. you were mentioning craft as well and it's it like it is a memoir it's kind of like a series of essays too for um if people like that kind of structure but what i thought was cool as i was reading it is it is kind of divided into three parts so it does kind of take you on the hero's journey in some sense um and i feel like it this probably was a little purposeful i also feel like when

you're reading the first part, you can kind of feel the, like even the writing feels a little more naive, like the tone is, and then it kind of ramps up a little bit in the second, and then the third we get like reflection on everything. So is that kind of part of the learning the craft part for writing this? Yeah. I mean, all of that stuff was experimental at the beginning. Like I didn't know how to write a memoir. I feel like the memoir and essays form is very friendly to the debut memoirist because you can kind of work on the pieces individually and then you can work more holistically. And so and it felt right because all these experiences were episodic in a way, but they're in conversation with each other. And so yeah, I really liked that structure.

and someone else was recently telling me like, oh, the chronology changes in the third act. And I'm like, I don't know if it's that exactly, but I think it's kind of what you're pointing to that there is, I have more experience at that point. And so there's more reflection. And so it does seem like that in a way. Yeah. But by the end, all of it was very intentional, including the framing of the opening curtain. and the closing curtain and the acting kind of structure. But I had no idea what I was doing going into it.

I just interviewed someone else last week who he also wrote a memoir about some really, like a difficult time in his life. But he talked about how he had kind of been journaling some of these thoughts at the time that the event happened. But he had someone give him the. advice early on where he was like, do not publish or completely write anything until five years after the event. It gives you such a different perspective. So kind of what you were saying there was reminding me of that too. You're like, I need to become the person who is like wise enough to write it

and probably get some of the distance because it is so hard when you're like really up close with it. Yeah. With this book in particular, I'm really glad it took the time, even though I definitely felt impatient earlier in my journey and wished I had my book already out and all of that. And it's so interesting too. It's like I have a second memoir in progress and I hope to publish that within two years. So I think I kind of needed to take, needed to really let this one like cook and fully marinate and I became the kind of person that I think can write the next one faster if that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, this one too is like covering from the time that you were essentially

a kid to into adulthood. And I'm sure your other one might still have some stuff from your childhood, but I feel like there's like a bigger range that you probably had to cover with this one too. Totally. Yeah, it really is zero to 40. Yeah. So speaking of kind of the beginning of it and the time span that it ranges, what is the word I'm actually, that it covers. I think that it ranges works. Yeah. It's obviously the title's girl gone wild. We know from the synopsis, like you were eventually on the Girls Gone Wild tour. But you kind of open up talking about being like born wild almost and how there's like. like what does it mean to be too much, especially as a girl? And what is like curiosity seeking look like as a girl, basically? Um, kind of, kind of in the sense of thinking like I was always a little bit like this. So can you talk about like that beginning part? Yeah, it was also in stark

contrast to how a lot of people were where I was from in this small town. And so I didn't have a lot of models for other people that were too much, you know, that lived the kind of life that I wanted to live. But yeah, I mean, I write about in later chapters like kind of being an early exhibitionist and I'm always wanting to perform in front of the mirror is something that I talk about in this, you know, super early quest to be an actor. And, I really didn't know anyone else like that. So I always felt like a little bit of an outsider where I was from. And I think that it's kind of natural for me to become an artist in the way that I have.

But yeah, I mean, I wrote it. I think a lot of people grow up and they have that same kind of feeling. And so hopefully it resonates with with readers too. Yeah. Well, I definitely was resonating with stuff at the beginning as well. You also have a chapter called Theater of Religion. And it's about how much like the rules and the rituals and the speaking in tongues and all of that is actually like feels very performative where it actually really. feels like theater as well. And I was connecting with a lot of the stuff. Did you grow up Catholic?

I did not grow up Catholic, but I am a pastor's kid. Oh my God. From a really, really small town, to your point about that. Yeah. We were Methodist, but intense, intense Christians, essentially, intensely conservative where I grew up as well. And specifically, though, like your line, when you're talking about like going through confirmation and it says like in a few years we would be confirmed becoming adult members of this wildly popular cult with ancient roots in Judea I about fell out of my chair. True or true? But then you pair like those experiences like the strictness and the rigidity with there's also a chapter

or when you're in like sixth grade where you kind of have kind of have like a sexual awakening where you're like, oh, my body has impulses that I can't, that I can't control, but also I've grown up in this religion that says it needs to be completely controlled. So can you kind of talk about living in that dichotomy? Yeah. I mean, a lot of the messaging was, you know, I remember my dad telling me how important it was that my mom was a virgin when they got married, which is like kind of such a weird message to tell your daughter because like what if she doesn't follow that path? And a lot of that messaging, I mean, you see play out in the book. It's like I wound up in an abusive dynamic that I felt like I couldn't leave and that was my first boyfriend. And

it's not like my dad's fault. It's like also my own self-esteem. I didn't I didn't even think I would ever fall victim to something like that. But I did. But part of it is that kind of early messaging that I got about virginity. You know, you're referencing the time I kind of got busted for masturbating in class. And my teacher was someone who went to my church. And there was a lot of shame in that experience. Not like I should have been doing that, but still. I didn't need to have that kind of shame. Yeah. Yeah. divorced me from my body and pleasure for a long time. And so, yeah, that was another theme that came out kind of early on that I,

it was hard for me to decide at the beginning exactly what to include because like the eating disorder stuff, I felt like I could, I did in the first draft go a lot further with that. That's a thread of being a woman in this era in any era, but especially in the, this kind of era. But I wound up ripping out some of that very much exists in the book, but I wound up ripping out a lot and that's going to be in my next memoir. But the religion piece felt, you know, with the performance aspect, with the rigid strictures that are involved in that felt like it very much belonged in this book. And I sort of used the epicure

at the beginning, like that Mary Daily epigraph about like everything that has been taken from us by the patriarchy, including our religion, as very much a guiding force in terms of did it belong in the book? And I felt like it very much did. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me Zorneal Hurston has a quote about like the men will create gods in their own image. Yeah. And that's been. It's been a big process for me in adulthood is like separating those things out like very patriarchal or very nationalist Christianity versus the fact that there are other interpretations of it. And the modern one that we're dealing with is very heavily influenced by like male power for sure. It is interesting that I kind of have a renewed relationship like post. It's not really in the book aside from when my grandma dies.

But I do, you know, as a 42-year-old woman now, have like kind of a renewed, like I pray. I have my own prayer that I say. But I think you're right. For me, it was organized religion is this very male-centric thing. And I had to create my own version of what I think it should. look like for me. Right. Yeah. I'm trying to figure that out still as well at 33. So I'm with you. Um, the other thing that's interesting is sometimes actually I was again interviewing someone and I was like, yes, I am a pastor's kid and he was like, oh, were you the good kind or were you the wild kind?

And I was very, I was scared and I like followed all the rules was and I'm a first child. So it's like, Like all of that is wrapped up in it. But it is interesting that we kind of like do that binary, especially with people who are involved in really any kind of like high demand religion growing up. And so there's this was when I mentioned girl on girl, which is by Sophie Gilbert. She writes about this concept of how like in the 90s and then the early 2000s,

there is kind of this like you should feel empowered by the fact that men. want your body like this or like I and it was a kind of a light bulb moment for me when I was reading it because I remember like running to like rap songs I'm not saying you're rid of rap songs but I remember running to like rap that was very technically demeaning but being like oh but this is I have this kind of power like this is an empowered thing and so I think that was kind of part of what you may have experienced as well where sometimes there's this correction later where you're you're like, I'm going to lean all the way into it and it's going to only mean that I'm empowered, not that I'm exploited.

So can you kind of talk about like that, that gray line between empowered versus exploited? Yeah, I definitely felt this, especially in my very early 20s when you're just like trying to get your feet on the ground and you are so, it's so easy to take advantage of people at that age and especially in the entertainment industry. It's just totally ripe for for Dation in that way. And, you know, everyone is look, I went, like I auditioned for an independent film. And it's like, that's what they wanted. They wanted a 21-year-old girl or a 20-year-old or a 19-year-old.

You know, like, that's exactly who they were looking for. And so I would find myself in these situations where, yeah, it was a source of power. but I realized how fleeting that power is and how I actually wasn't in control of it. Yeah. And it also sucked because like I am very sex positive and I am very comfortable with nudity. But then when my own like pleasure centers would be turned against me. Yes. I hated that as well.

So it was very complicated. And yeah, I do get into that a little bit in the book, especially like in the poisoned court and some of those essays. But yeah, I mean, I'm very happy with, I think age really helps because you're able to sort of know better in terms of what is actually powerful. And yeah, thank God I'm out of that stage. Oh, yeah. The kind of jumping out of the book, I think that's you, so you have, you have a couple podcast and produce multiple podcasts as well. But with private parts unknown, I feel like you kind of

have a unique perspective because of what you were just saying, like you are sex positive. It's not like, oh, let's not talk about that. But we can also talk about how there is a positive version of sex work where people are like choosing to go into that and then there is the like other people being able to exploit it because you're in whatever kind of situation but i think a lot of people think you can only talk about it one way so what has like what has getting to talk about those issues in your podcasts felt like for you oh my god it's been amazing to have a a home to just suss out exactly what what I believe in terms of all of that stuff and have conversations with people across the

spectrum. Obviously, I'm trying to mostly platform people that don't have, you know, views totally that I, that I don't agree with or whatever, but I'm down for a debate. And just being able to talk to people that have had like real sex work experiences. and I feel like there's so much nuance in all of that. Also in relationship structures. Like I'm pretty naturally monogamous, but there's also so much nuance in there and just really being able to determine like what is my feminism?

What is the kind of relationship structure I'm into? Being able to have those conversations so that other people can hear them and kind of make up their own mind about that stuff has been incredible. And also, you know, I write about in the book, I couldn't talk about my abortion for like years. And it was through doing the podcast and our rights being taken away. Yes. That I realized, I was like, oh, why am I not talking about this on the podcast? And so it empowered me to have those conversations. about my own experience, about other people's experience in within reproductive rights. And all of all of that I think has really brought me into, you know, my full feminism.

And then Girl Gone Wild is me writing about my personal experience versus interviewing other people. But I do think they're both in conversation. Totally. Yeah. The other thing we're kind of talking about how Hollywood can be exploitative too as well. And kind of like the myth making of making it versus like you're actually kind of fighting for survival essentially. And so they're from a couple different chapters. It's kind of like it's like Hollywood is like actually filtering out the people who don't have the resources to kind of like go the direction they want to. And so when you're in a situation,

I think there's at one point where you talk about like a lot of your decisions were being made by the fact that you are now like scared of like hand to mouth poverty essentially. And but there's like this like very American, very like pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality in Hollywood. Like if you just keep trying and you keep trying like it's going to work out for you. So what were the, I mean, I kind of know some of the takeaways, but what were some of those like Hollywood experiences like living in that type of survival? Yeah, I feel like the media representation of making it is different than what it is actually like. And not like it's totally obscured. I mean, we can see all the time. There are Nepo babies and it's way easier for them.

They have time, they have money, they have connections. And obviously that's a huge leg up. But then Hollywood thrives on these stories of like this person was discovered or they did this bold thing and that's how their career started. And I guess some of that does exist, but it's so rare. You know, the Midwestern people or like the middle class or lower class people that I see making it are have really kind of sacrificed everything at the altar of their creative career. And I would say, and they're probably outliers. That's the other part too.

Yeah, yeah. But even to get to where I am, I have also sacrificed everything at the altar of my career. And so, yeah, I feel like the book is a pretty accurate representation of how hard it is. And, you know, that I had to be an apartment manager. And that was just one of the mini shitty jobs that I had to try to stay afloat. And I was making quote unquote bad decisions because of money when I was really trying to act. You know, I sold T-shirts on The Girls Gone Wild tour. I hawked all this shit for, you know, Fortune 500 companies. I know the like staples coupons.

I was like, oh my gosh. I also did these auto shows. I didn't, this got ripped out of the book, but I did these auto shows where I was a product specialist for Volkswagen. And there was later a story about how they were selling these diesel cars and they were, we were basically lying for them about that they were environmentally friendly. Oh my gosh. And so I had a whole game.

gig where I convinced a bunch of people to buy that car. Yeah. But like that those are the kind of crazy jobs that I would have. And, you know, to even carve out enough time to write this book, like I'm, I'm 42 and I have spent every scrap of extra time. Right. For the last 15 years, kind of working towards this goal. And still, it takes a long time when you don't have all of that privilege.

Yeah. It also kind of, the book really shows how ambition can be, actually a lot of things in the book show how something can be really good or it can be really bad, which I think is really important for us to remember with most topics. There are some clear-cut topics, but I think with most topics we need to have more nuance. And so it's like the ambition is what was powering you to keep trying and to maybe take a morally gray job or something kind of in the gray area. But also it kind of keeps you from ever giving up or like sometimes like seeing red flags or knowing when you need to rest. So have you kind of, I'm assuming you have, you kind of come to terms with you're the good and bad.

sides of how ambitious you are. Yeah, I would say I still, it's still something, it's, I will always be driven by my ambition and my husband teases me because he's like, I can't give you too much money at one time because you'll just spend it on your art, which is true, which is true. Like, I could not be trusted with any if I just randomly won the lottery and I got a million dollars like it would be gone next year I would have yeah. That's who I am and that's who I will always be. And so yeah, I would like to say I've learned all these lessons about the downsides of my ambition. I think I've gotten smarter about other how other people can take advantage of me in that. but I am still like a total nihilist in the face of my artistic dreams.

I think that's pretty common for people with like creative dreams as well. So I'm sure there are a lot of people nodding along basically. The other thing I thought was really interesting is like so parisocial relationships are very interesting to me. and fame, although I love podcasting. I do not ever want mega fame. I'm too much of an introvert. But how fame is tied to like the external persona or the persona that you're putting on for other people. But then sometimes you might be like, oh, I'll do this because this is like the public facing version of me.

But then you kind of start to lose track of yourself as well. Yeah. So you kind of talk about how you figured out like, oh, I think I'm blending my persona with my actual self. I also just feel like the older that I get, I feel the same as you. I don't want some extreme level of fame. I want to be able to be respected for the art that I create. And I want to put a lot of amazing things out into the world. But I'm not driven. by like I don't really want random people on the street to come up to me and I don't want to worry about people coming to my house and any of that stuff that can even happen even if you get kind of a little bit famous. So which when I was younger, all the fame and external validation around, you know, making it as an actor was very attractive, very attractive to me. And that's so dissipated.

And I think it's because I really came into what is the intrinsic value of the art and realizing how that is what really drives me. And then also, yeah, in terms of identity, I did have these silos. identities for a long time. I just, I do a lot of things. And so, and they're not all necessarily, like, you wouldn't necessarily think, oh, you can do your stand-up or be out about your only fans in front of the people whose podcasts you produce or whatever.

And I have had some downsides to being who I am. Just like, just. just last year somebody didn't want me to teach this class with kids because of some of the stuff that I have on the internet which I'm like it's actually pretty tame but okay so but the older that I get the more that I have realized the value and just collapsing those identity like I can just be one person and I only want to be one person and I don't want to have to censor different aspects of myself for different audiences and it's okay if not everybody likes me that is totally fine and it just makes it more comfortable for me to live and even like my family follows me on Instagram and I

still try to be just my full self because it just feels better. Yeah it's there's a lot of energy that has to go into like faking something. Yeah. And so that's kind of what I've talked about with people before too where like it's actually going to be like not in terms of like posting is like your only sense of value. But it's a lot easier to consistently post if like who you are online is pretty close to who you are offline. Because you're not having to perform to to make the content most of the time. No. We're all we all have like versions of masks that will. put on in different scenarios, maybe just for the sake of like general appropriateness for like where you are in that literal moment. Sure. But it's a lot, it's a lot less like thinking and it's a lot less energy and it's a lot less to keep track of when you can mostly be yourself in any of the important spaces for yourself.

So I do think that's cool. But yeah, you do, you will have the cost or whatever of that is. some people won't like you. But the good news is if you can logically get to the point that nobody in the world is liked by everyone. Yes. You could be okay with it. Yeah, I did a little exercise just to kind of prepare for this launch. Obviously, I've published a ton of one-off essays on the internet.

And I've released a ton of podcasts. So I'm not against or it's not like I've never had negative reviews or. people sending me shitty emails or whatever before, but I'm sort of opening myself up to that on a larger scale. And so I did an exercise of looking on Goodreads at some of my favorite books, like James and Wilde and et cetera. And a few of the most anticipated books of this year. And they all had really shitty reviews. In addition to a bunch of people loving the book, some people actually, like, read the book for filth and i it was such a good exercise to remind myself of the fact that it's impossible to please everyone and is i don't need to try yeah i just saw someone's tic-tok yesterday

um and he was talking it like it was like he was like looking at the camera like it was awkward and it was like that audio that's like it sounds like blinking eyes which sounds weird but anyone chronically online knows what I mean. And the, like, the text on it said that when, when you're like 50 pages into a book that everyone told you, you were going to love and you're just not into it for some reason. And I was like, the comments are always so fun on stuff like that. And I even commented because I'm like, I was like, it is the strangest experience where like, maybe multiple of your friends have said like, you're going to love this. You read the synopsis. You're like, this is right up my alley. And then you're reading it and you're like,

why is this not vibing? I don't understand. So it's like that's what I try to even keep in mind is like the even for me every now and then there's a book where I'm like, this should work for me. And it's like whether it's the time or me, it's not working. And it doesn't mean that they're a bad person or you're a bad person. It's just you're, you just don't vibe and that's okay. It just happens sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah, you just, you can't. you can't have your self-esteem directly linked to any of that. There's that one of the things that has stuck with me was I heard someone on a podcast years ago talking about like if you can read 100 or 100 comments about yourself and one of them is negative and like the other 99 were like positive or neutral but the negative one is what's sticking with you. It's because a part of you believes that part.

Uh-huh. And he was saying like, because if someone was like, you have such ugly pink hair and you're like I don't have pink hair it's not going to stick with you yeah but it might stick with you if it's something that's like stuck in your brain about yourself which is like your cue to work on it even though it's not fun yes I agree with that um but speaking of self-esteem as well I don't know if everyone can hear Bruce in the background um hi puppy there's there's a there are still ongoing conversations about like what kind of self-esteem women are allowed to have or what kind of confidence they're supposed to have and we use different words

for women who are like trailblazers might be called bossy like all of that stuff um so what was your journey kind of like with i mean we never completely figure out self-esteem i don't think but What was your journey with the self-esteem part? I mean, I definitely was called bossy when I was little. Yeah. I got the you should be a lawyer. I think I have been, I've always been a pretty too much kind of person and never really been been bothered by it, but I have, you know, stepped in minds that I wasn't expecting, like

my first boyfriend turning into an abusive situation, which clearly was tied up in self-esteem or like not being able to walk away from experiences sooner. I mean, romantically, you can see it a lot in the book of just like not being able to leave when someone, doesn't want me, which was a long, a thing that I had to work on for a long time. I mean, now I think of my husband was like, I mean, I hope we don't. But if he was like, I want to get divorced, I feel like I would actually handle it pretty well because I've worked through a lot of that. But yeah, I mean, self-esteem as a woman is a tricky thing. It took me a lot of years of and then there's body stuff and all the messages around that I really just got to a point

where I have been I'm pretty able to divorce myself from like other people's opinions. And so I don't get as stuck in the trap of you should be like X, Y, Z. Right. I have a pretty clear sense now of who I want to be and that's my measuring stick. and it works out a lot better when I use that. Yes. One of the other quotes I know I had highlighted, but I didn't completely pull it so I don't have it for verbatim,

but you were talking about with, I think it was with your first boyfriend, like the way you felt about him was so intense that it almost felt like this is like a replacement for God or like this must be, because when everything in your life is framed, so much about religion. That's kind of what stuck out to me about it where like I had to in my 20s learned too that like I was definitely deconstructing. At some point I would have considered

myself an atheist. I just say I'm kind of curious and don't quite know what. Yeah. At that time period in my 20s I had to start recognizing my pattern too where like I was so used to having my validation be external. So whether it was God, a pastor who also happened to be my dad. So, like, of course, those were, like, really confusing things for me. So then it was like, when I went into therapy, I was like, I wasn't literally thinking it. But I was like, oh, she is now my, like, guiding light. Like, she is the one who can give me all the answers.

Or, like, I would meet a woman who was, like, who felt who had the age gap between myself and my mom, who I was no contact with. And I'd be like, oh, this woman is going to like fill that gap in my life, not literally, but it's like how my emotional subconscious was responding. Yeah. And I think that's kind of what's a little bit dangerous. I, we've both talked about like there are versions of Christianity that I think are really wonderful.

Mm-hmm. But I think it's one of the dangers of having it so externalized and like not questioned. Mm-hmm. Like you do not question this stuff is like, then you don't get to like learn for yourself. like I'm actualized. I have my own thoughts. I have my own opinion as well. It's so hard to get out of that. I think, yeah, just as you said, some of it is subconscious and it's a little bit below your conscious thinking. And so you can't, it takes a while to even surface exactly how the process is working so that you can unpack that it's flawed. And that's kind of the biggest thing for

me because on the surface, I was like, I don't believe this shit. But obviously, some of the stuff still seeped beneath the surface in a way that I had to realize that it was there was like the first struggle and then bringing it to the top and then figuring out how to fix it versus if I just would have been conscious of it the whole time. It wouldn't have been such a trap. That was what I also had that highlighted when you, it says, because sometimes, Something that's big for me lately, and especially with Book Wild itself, was I saw someone who talked about how, like, there are versions of people who are atheists or agnostic that seem like very angry. And then there are some who don't. And she basically broke down the, I can't remember all of them, but all of the four things that religion like evolutionarily supplies to people. And one of them was community, like another is like a sense of on transcendence.

being able to look into yourself so like introspection and all of that. So when you there's this thing that I had highlighted where it said I would choose a different church, the theater. Very huge for me because like bookish communities and like getting to go to book events with people that feels like quote unquote church for me now as well. But then I and then I loved like the rest of like I would worship a different Holy Trinity, Shakespeare, Sam Shepard and Yvon's Endler. ironically acting felt more honest than Catholicism also like speaking to my soul but I thought like what

you're saying then the next part though says but it was too late to make a clean getaway I'd already soaked up the Catholic guilt forever branded with its indelible ink the need to be good the not wanting to disappoint the distance it put between me and my family and the everlasting dissonance of it all a cognitive dissonance is what is blowing my mind at present lately yes it's so it's so the undertow of it is so powerful. Yeah. Just like we were just talking about like even if even if on the surface you've worked through a lot of this stuff, it's a lot of it sticks with you. Especially when it's, I think what some people don't always know or maybe some people who were like Christmas and Easter type of Christians is like when it is from the time you were born until like.

So for me it was like I wasn't really completely free. thinking until college. So like 18 to 19 was when I could finally actually think the thoughts that had kind of already been happening for me. But when it's the formative years, it's so ingrained in you, even if there was always a part of you that was like, I'm not totally sure about this. Because similar to the conversation about like survival in Hollywood, how that can be exploited, when you're a kid, your survival is dependent on the adults around you. So it's like part of your body is internalizing the message and thinking like I need to do this to be loved and that just doesn't go away when you get away from it yeah it's that I need to do this to be loved and also just like I had to go

like there was no version where I disobeyed my parents in terms of church that was gave me any sort of outcome that I wanted right so I had to actually walk the walk whether or not yes I agreed with it or not And so the muscle memory of that is also really strong. Yes, it just is. So a little bit later in life, definitely later than growing up in the church, you also get to a point where like Adderall is what's keeping you going, essentially, which I think is very common for a lot of people. And it's, so it's kind of another thing in the book that is kind of discussed as like,

yes, this is a tool, but then also like maybe paired with like bottomless ambition and desperation, it starts to be destructive as well. So yeah, how do you kind of look back on that time now and how was that changed? Yeah, I started taking it in college because, you know, it helped me stay up to study and to party and to still pursue all the stuff that I wanted to pursue. And it also tied into the body stuff like I could stay skinny. It's easier to not eat. Yeah. And then it just, I mean, the addiction started pretty quickly.

I would say within months of starting to take Adderall. I was totally abusing it. And that lasted about 10 years. Yeah. And when it's giving you some things that are helping you, it's hard to quit, even if it's giving you almost as many things as you don't like in terms of like, yeah, it's helping me stay up to work on some things that help my career. But it's also making me bomb some auditions that I wouldn't bomb.

not being able to look people in the eye. That's not super helpful all the time. And just your decision making gets wrapped up and you're not totally in control, in control of it. So, yeah, but it still took me like 10 years to distance myself from it. And ultimately it was, I mean, I read an essay about a drug, dealer that I had and, you know, I recently quit smoking weed. I wrote about it for the cut. It's not in this book. But that had also been a super long relationship, way more positive, obviously, than my Adderall relationship. But that was also, even though it's not supposed to be

chemically addictive. It was really hard for me to stop doing that too. And so I just think any of these chemical things that we get dependent on and then it turns habitual. And yeah, it was tied into all these because it gave me just enough of the things that I liked. It was almost impossible to quit. But oh my God.

You couldn't pay me to take Adderall. know. I am like so sensitive to stimulants so I'm I'm I'm pretty safe because I get so irritable and anxious so quickly I don't know why but yeah I had it once and I was like this is insane like just just the way my chemistry works it just didn't work that well for it but then coincidentally like this was after I'd read the book it was literally really, I think yesterday or two days ago, I saw someone talking about on TikTok how she had just listened to this episode of a podcast called the white woman whisperer that like breaks down things that are both like patriarchy and white supremacy and capitalist related in America, which is

almost everything. Yeah. And she was talking. So the episode she did was about the sense of urgency and how like that was very much tied into like white supremacy and capitalism and how the like constant feeling to both like prove yourself be productive be concerned with things like profit are so tied into urgency and then this person who had listened to it was like so I was like huh I really do live with a sense of urgency all the time and she's at least from her TikTok she was saying like she's been prescribed Adderall and it was making her think about Adderall and she was like, oh, like the way I got Adderall was going to my doctor and being like, I can't work as much. And then they just pretty much like, that's kind of all you

have to say to even like get access to it. And she was like, and I was like, huh, that is kind of interesting if that's all you have to say for it. I mean, and this is a stretch, but we're just following chains here. And then she was like, what is Adderall again? And it is like synthetic meth essentially meth. No, it totally is. And she's like, and when did we start creating meth as a human race? And it was in the Third Reich and it was created so that soldiers could fight for more than 24 hours at a time. And she was like, I'm just sitting here with my, she's like, I'm just sitting here with my mind blow. Like, oh my God, all of this from someone talking about urgency. But I think that's another reason it's really hard to notice that it might be problematic for you in some ways.

because the positives are highly praised, basically. Yeah, and we also have this culture of, I mean, it's even worse now than when I was doing it. But, you know, like everyone wants to self-diagnose any tiny little thing that they have. Even to their detriment, I mean, I have a ex-friend who, when I point to the beginning of the disintegration of our relationship, It's when she went to the doctor and demanded that she get Adderall. And it wasn't even like a triggering thing for me in terms of that she was taking. I was just like, was so interesting to watch it in someone else's life. Yeah.

Turn into such this negative thing. And it was complicated there because I couldn't criticize, oh, you're having these problems because a doctor prescribed it. But I could see very clearly. I was like all these relationships in your life are falling apart because I think because of this drug. Yeah. Yeah, that is sometimes what it is. That it is what's so complicated because I like I am on the autistic spectrum and I was diagnosed like 14 years ago at this point.

And so even at that point, it still was not a thing where so many people were self-diagnosing themselves with stuff. And now it's like, I think it's great that we have access to more information. But sometimes then like the people who do need certain things, it's going to be harder for them to get it. Yes. And else is just self-diagnosing. Yes. And it's also like sometimes, you know, I have OCD tendencies. They don't get in the way.

They're not, they are in my childhood. I can point to, I probably could. have gotten a diagnosis. Yeah, or cleanliness. I had a whole, I had a whole thing. I had a counting thing. Yeah. Whatever. But as an adult, it's just like I see other people so eager to claim the thing. And it's like, we're all just a little weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the thing with OCD is like people use it incorrectly is like and bipolar is one people use so incorrectly, where some people just use it to mean they want something clean. Oh, rhetorically.

Yeah, like anal retentive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. And I'm like that I do have OCD. And so much of it has to do, in my opinion, there's a lot of the religious, like having to always think of like making sure I was doing the completely right thing, like the threat of hell. I think really instilled my OCDs a lot.

It's an anxiety disorder no matter what if you're diagnosed with it. But I get stuck. compulsion is the thinking and thinking that I'm going to be able to think myself into like the perfect decision and then you just paralyzed all day and it's terrible but there's also multiple expressions of it like you're saying then there's like what we tend to see more represented is the kind of like counting or cleanliness stuff like that's kind of the only thing people know about it and then coincidentally the one way people rhetorically use it is like the one way that it's really not how it presents.

Hopefully we're getting a little bit better on that as yeah. I hope so too. Realize like we can't say we can't call things gay. We fix that one. Yes. Our word we're working out. You know, we're getting there, but it's slow. Yeah.

We're trying to. Like, can we please get there? Well, then kind of the next thing. Like, not that we even need to dive completely into therapy, but you do kind of start therapy and obviously that helps if anyone is in therapy and willing to be introspective um it should it it kind of helps you be reflective on a different time in your life and kind of choose to be different in the areas that you want to and i think what's really powerful especially in that like third part of your book too is like you did kind you got to like reclaim the decisions

that you made and reclaim your story and decide what you want to do next which i think is kind of cool with your podcast and everything. So what has it meant to you to kind of be able to look back on these experiences and like see them with some grace and like integrate them? Yeah, I think I had a lot of shame wrapped up in a lot of this stuff to the point where I couldn't even really remember it or I didn't have it. I didn't have full access to those memories and I remember being, like I date of this comedian over a decade ago. And I remember being jealous of him that he just had access to all these memories. And I knew as a aspiring memoirist, like, it's a problem that I couldn't or didn't want to remember these things. And so I think a huge part of it has been

working through the shame. And yes, I had an amazing therapist for a while who was just just kind of out of the box who is exactly who I needed. I've also done a, you know, ayahuasca and pursued my self-development in all kinds of weird and not so weird ways. Journaling has been transformative and just being able to integrate some of those things. And working on the book, I mean, working on the book has been the ultimate form of therapy and catharsis around this stuff. and allowing myself to fully remember the memory.

And a lot of it has been good because, like, I'm not, I'm not the, like, I'm the, like, I'm the asshole in a lot of, I try to be the asshole in the book in, in its expression. But, like, in the reality of those situations, they're not always my fault or it makes sense why I was doing this. things that I did because of lack of money, because of lack of experience, because of whatever. And so I could forgive myself for missteps that I made. And now I don't have the shame. So I have full access to all of those memories and a love for my former selves in a way that I didn't have before. and it's been so powerful to, I mean, I think I've never felt better than I do now. And I think a large part of that is writing the book.

Yeah, that is the important part. Because it's really easy. I was talking to someone last week about like thinking like I need to confront all of these people who hurt me to be able to heal versus I just need to go back as my adult self. and like forgive myself for how things played out. Yeah. And it makes, it really can make all the difference. Yeah, so much. Yeah.

Well, I really enjoyed the book. I think everyone who listens to this podcast will really enjoy it too. And as of the date that it's airing, you can go buy it. So go do that. I do always ask at the end, too, if there are any books you've read recently that you really love. or if there are books that you just kind of always recommend. Well, I always recommend Tiny Beautiful Things in Wilds, which I mentioned at the beginning, Cheryl Strade's books.

And I just actually relistened to the audiobook of Tiny Beautiful Things. And it's so interesting because I hadn't read it in probably close to 15 years. And it's so interesting to like she was hugely impactful. and I could see some of the ways that she had been impactful on me by listening to that. That's cool. Yeah. And I think she's influenced a whole generation of memoir. Probably.

Highly recommend checking those out. Tomboyland is an excellent Midwestern telling that's slightly different, more. gender dysphoria. Oh, okay. Those covers very pretty. Yeah. You can kind of see the similarity, actually.

I loved her cover. Yes. You're right. And the chronology of water was a big by Lydia Euknovitch was a big important book to me. Soon after I read Cheryl, I read that. how to write an autobiographical novel by Alexander Chee was hugely influential,

totally different. I mean, he and I are very different. And I just thought that's also a memoir and essays. It plays with form in a few places that I like. That's a memoir class. I feel like. Yeah. And I'm really excited to read girl on girl.

I have not read that one. So that's, I'm adding that to my list. It is fantastic. I think it's behind me. But like the subtitle even is how, the subtitle will tell you a lot. It says how pop culture turned a generation of women against themselves. Uh-huh.

And for anyone who hasn't heard me talking about it for like, what a year now. I think it's been out for a year-ish. One of the things that I think really explains what she examines is with Pamela Anderson when the sex tape was released and it was so public and it was everywhere. She considers that the beginning of the post-privacy era and that then the fact that we could see so much of everyone's lives fueled this like being hypercritical of other women in a whole other way. Yeah. So if that sounds interesting to anyone, you will love it.

It's just, it was, it's one of my favorite nonfiction that I read last year for sure. Oh, amazing. And then, oh, I want to shout out, which you would probably love talking to her, but Antonia Crane wrote, spent, which is kind of like a Gen X, San Francisco. So it's very much in conversation with my book, but she went further into the sex work realm. And Antony is just like a beautiful soul and a wonderful writer. And I absolutely adore that book. Oh, man. Well, now you have me wanting to read that one.

My CVR is constantly growing as for everyone. Well, I know it. So I know you have you have a couple of podcasts yourself. You produce some podcasts, but where should people follow you to see everything you're doing? Yeah. I'm everywhere at Courtney Kosak. My last name is K-O-C-A-K. I mostly hang out on Instagram. I'm also on substack. I have a substack called the Bleeders. I have like four substacks, but the writing one is called. the bleeders. And yeah, my sex podcast is called Private Parts Unknown. And my debut memoir is called Girl Gone Wild. So of course, check that out. Yes. I will add all of those links to the show notes. And thank you so much for coming on and talking about it. Thank you for chatting with me. Yeah, it was delightful to find your content and even more delightful to have this conversation.