Bookwild - Exploring Imposter Syndrome with Liz Keenan and Greg Wands

Episode Date: July 12, 2024

This week, I talk with Liz Keenan and Greg Wands about the inception of their new podcast Imposter Hour, a show that delves into the syndrome haunting creatives, impacting their lives and work.  We dive into the origin story of the show and their plans for it in the future.Subscribe to Imposter Hour on Apple or SpotifyFollow Imposter Hour on InstagramOr check out their website ImposterHour.com for more info! Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

So this week, I am back with Liz and Greg, who have been on the podcast before, but kind of excitedly or excitingly, some of you guys have probably already seen that they just launched a podcast called Imposter Hour. That has been very fun for me because I've listened to multiple of the episodes. And yeah, we just wanted to kind of talk about it for everyone who's a book wild listener so that they can kind of get to know about the podcast. welcome back. Thank you for having us. It's exciting. Yeah. So listen to all of them.

You're producing Imposter. I am. Like, give yourself a lot. Give yourself a lot. Yeah. We couldn't do what we're doing without you. Yeah. Well,

the kind of keeping with that, sometimes it's like, so basically we have recorded an episode that will come out on your guys's podcast where I've kind of said all of this, but for the sake of the book wild listeners and the fact that this will technically come out first, I, long story short, when I started between the lines, at the time, I thought it would be really cool to eventually have something like Barstow Sports is the most commonly known one where they produce like six or seven or maybe more

podcast at this point, just all in a similar vein. And I was like, I knew I just loved podcast in general so much. So I named my YouTube channel Book Wild Collective with the hopes that eventually one day there could be other bookish content on there, especially because I just don't venture out of thrillers very often. So I thought it would be cool for like people who do to still have a home for bookish content basically. So then when you guys reached out and said you were kind of thinking about a podcast, I was like, well, let me pitch you an idea. So it's been super cool for me because this was like something I thought about like four years ago, essentially coming to fruition. So I was super excited when you guys wanted to do one. Yeah. We're, I mean, we're having

such a blast. Thank you for bringing us into the fold. This is really a wonderful experience. so far. We just dropped our second episode today. And yeah, it's just, I mean, it's such a, it's been a really kind of interesting learning curve and a lot of fun. Yeah. And we can see what the fuss is about. Right. It's just the, it's a, it's a cool way to build community. It's a cool way to kind of check in and have fun conversations with people that you already either know and love or this work you really admire.

And just a way to share and try and get the word out a little bit. And also in our case, you know, with the imposter syndrome being kind of the unifying theme on it, it's also just a cool way to dig into a little more of what makes authors and creatives tick, which has been really fascinating. I mean, we were talking just before we started taping a little bit about the idea of building community and kind of sharing community and bringing people over the fold. And it's really, it's a fun way to do that. Yeah.

And also, I think when we were conceiving this, I think, idea, it was like, you know, Greg and I lean so much on each other to kind of talk about not only like our ideas and what we're excited about, but also our, you know, insecurities, our self-doubt. That's been like a big part of our partnership as friends, as writers, and now as co-hosts. And I think the thing that I'm coming to realize with this podcast is, you know, the actual coping with imposter syndrome is being achieved by having these. conversation. So it's like this amazing halo effect. We get to talk to writers that we really admire or want to get to know. And we learn a lot of aspects about them that we might not normally

if we were just kind of having a traditional conversation like, why do you write or how do you write? Which I love those conversations. But to bring it a little deeper, we are hearing a lot of things that we really identify with and relate to. And then also having some new perspectives on, you know, the various aspects of imposter's, imposter syndrome and imposter characters. And I have to say that, you know, we've recorded a little more than half a dozen episodes now, but I'm feeling less imposter syndrome in my writing. And I didn't necessarily expect that to be, you know, a side effect of doing the podcast, but, you know, I really feel like this is helpful, you know, I can speak for myself,

but I hope for also our guests and for you guys. Yeah, that is what there's just like so many trippy things happening even on my end as well. Because like that has happened for me. I've listened to I think four of the episodes at this point. And there have been times when I've been writing where like I've thought of things that I heard someone else say. And so then it does make it easier to write or I have. I have like a logical combat or what is the word I'm looking for? Not combat and thought, but a thought that can go up against the impostery type thoughts.

And I had just been telling my husband about that. I was like, it's just like cool, like interconnected, sometimes meta thing where like producing it is helping me get insight the way you're saying from other people. and then it's even making writing easier for me for like, I think for multiple reasons. The first one that comes to mind was it started to make me realize how many different ways there are to write a book is like what has dawned on me. So it kind of has like given me the freedom to be like, you don't need to be so serious about like all of this or like figuring out the right way to write a book. like, because there just are multiple. So if you're interested in doing it, like, I'm glad I read like Save the Cat and

Story Genius. But then it was like, okay, now you can now you can start writing that. Like you've learned about structure and like now maybe just start writing itself. And so hearing so many different perspectives kind of reminded me of like, oh, there's not just one way to do it. And then on the flip side. it's been making me think of, which I should have looked it up in preparation for this, but Bray Brown has a quote about how shame can only exist in a vacuum.

And so if you crack it open and are talking about it with people, like the shame itself goes away. So like shame wants us to hide and isolate and like think that we're bad and that no one else is having the same bad experience as us. but then like the ironic part is that like just not isolating those feelings or like talking about them makes it go away immediately. So I also think that's kind of cool for what your guys' podcast is doing. It also kind of takes the shame out of imposter syndrome because it's like let's just talk about it like it's a thing. Right. Right. Well, I think I think being a writer is sort of a study in contrast and contradictions in a lot of way because you are,

it's a very solo endeavor, right? I mean, Liz and I have a slightly different version of that because we are a writing partner. So we actually have a support system built in and a sounding board built in and mutual, you know, respect and admiration and love for one another. And that's very helpful just from like a, I don't know, emotional buoyancy perspective. But really, I mean, most writing and most writers and most scenarios, you're, it's very isolated, you get into your head, you're living in your head, right?

Yeah. You're getting in your head in an effort to put something out into the world that then is shared, right? But I think that because it's such a solo endeavor, isolated endeavor, very kind of, I don't know, there's just like a thing where I think it's very easy to, for that snowball effect to happen in your brain, right? Because you think you're the only one who's ever had imposter syndrome, you're the only one who's having the self-doubt and the things like that.

Also, I think with the way that we live now and the way that a lot of book stuff specifically and publishing stuff is marketed with social media, social media is the antithesis of that in the way that a lot of people, kind of the whole thing, it's aspirational, and people are putting up their best versions of themselves. So, you know, you see people out there and they're celebrating all their successes, which is wonderful. But I think when you're, especially maybe if you're in. a little bit of a period of self-doubt or a low period, that seems stifling and that seems

further isolating or can feel further isolating in that way as well. So much of, yeah, so much of writing and so much of that is such a like you're having to navigate all of these things inside your head, which is outside of your pet in the real world. So just, yeah, that was sort of our goal for this or our inspiration, I guess, for this, is to, you know, as you said, you know, take the shame out, open it up, air things out, and, you know, maybe starting a bit of a dialogue to help people feel a little less isolated and alone and whatever rut they're in. There's one of the leading experts on imposter syndrome is a psychologist named Dr. Valerie Young,

and she did a great TED talk about imposter syndrome. She also wrote a great book, specifically imposter syndrome and women in the workplace. Oh, my. But one of the things she said in her TED talk was the only cure for imposter syndrome is to talk about it. And, you know, it's, I think, much like therapy, recovery, you know, 12-step programs where you have that kind of setting, you know, really any place like you guys are saying where you're taking something that's isolated and putting light on it, you know, that saying, you know, that saying, you know, you need to shine the light for something to grow. You know, I think it's really important for people to feel like they're in a safe space to be able to talk about the things that, you know, worry them or create self-doubt or pain

in them. But exactly what Greg's saying, I think the way that the world looks right now, like the optics of everyone else, it's further isolating. And I always think, you know, if I had a version of Instagram, that was real, it would be like the introverts version. It would be like a lot of me needing to lay down. Like a lot of like lowering the lights and watching two movies. Like not answering my phone.

But you know, that's just not like the honest way that people, I know there are influencers who highlight that and I really appreciate that. But yeah, I think. And also who better to talk about these things than storytellers? That was our. opinion, you know, and people who can have some, like, self-deprecation, you know, laugh at it a little, because that helps too. Yes.

Yeah, Scott's episode that just came out, I posted out in my stories, but his sense of humor is just, like, so similar to mine, and he's, like, so dry and I would say sardonic as well. But there are so many moments where I was laughing, and Tyler was like, are you. because I added a comedy podcast too. He was like, is that the comedy podcast? I was like, no. It's just Scott talking about being introverted and stuck in your head and noticing too many things. No, but also, yes.

I mean, we're also, you know, lean into as much because comedy is such a ball for anxiety and stuff like that. So if we can, you know, have a few laughs with one another and kind of open that up and maybe take some of the self-serious. Kate, you were talking a few minutes ago about the idea of that, you know, getting into the, kind of getting in your own way as a writer because you can get too self-serious or you can get too affection minded. And that really, a lot of that is also, I think, fear based, right? There's so much that we do. There are so many of these mental contortions that we do as writers, which are just ways of trying to navigate fear. And that can be its own kind of pitfall and its own trap. And so as much as you can, again, bring some humor and some levity and a little less self-seriousness to the whole endeavor, the more, hopefully that also opens you up and allows you, you know, allows that flow to open from your kind of creative side too. Yeah. The comedian I was talking about, her name's Miss Pat. But she, I got really, I heard her on Joe R.

Rogan like seven years ago at this point, I think. And she was, she's had a really traumatic past. Like, just significantly worse than anything I experienced. But I really connected with her message because she talked about a lot of her comedy does revolve around her trauma. And especially back then, her hours have evolved since she's gotten bigger. But she told Joe, because Joe was like, you just have such a levity about it still was essentially what she was saying. And she said, if I can laugh about it, I've got control of it now, basically.

And I think that's kind of even what you're saying too. And that's how I feel in general is like, I already know the negative parts of myself. Like it would be nicer to just be able to laugh about them and like navigate them that way. way than just being like, meaner to myself all the time. Yeah. You know, neuroscience is, they're finding, too, that, you know, the more, a lot of, a lot of your emotional health and a lot of the way you can, your neural pathways, you can actually shape your neural pathways depending on the kind of stimulus that, you know, so if you're living

more in a positive headspace versus a negative headspace, that's going to affect your overall mood, your attitude, it's going to affect how your brain actually functions. Yeah. So as we can, you know, as, as much as there is that temptation of dwelling in the negativity or, you know, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory or everyone put it, it's like, as much as we can be mindful and, and intentional about the way that we try and frame things, that's going to then have that echo effect as well. Yeah.

The neuroplasticity. was like a big thing. I taught my therapist and I talked about when I was in therapy as well because it's like it feels so hard because you do get, you get your pathways that just get run deeper and deeper in your mind. But like if you're willing and you're saying you want to not feel that way anymore, you can do the things that like start building different pathways for your brain to follow. You just have to want it because it's hard.

that's the main thing. He can't casually want it. Like he has to be pretty active in it. Yeah, you have to work for it. But I think that's one of those, you know, as mindful as you can do and as intentional as you can be. That also, I think, waiting, you know, you can help to. It's, there's a therapeutic aspect to that, as Liz said, you know, earlier.

There's like we can use that, I think, as creatives and as writers to help us to kind of re, I don't know, you know, steer the ship. Yeah. If you will. Yeah. And I think that's a big part of that too. And that's part of that echo effect is like as much as you can kind of hit some of that stuff, the trauma head on and the things, the old, the old ways, right?

The old kind of pathways that were dug for you in a certain way based on how we were brought up, your background, your past, your experiences, you know, there are ways that you can, as you're saying, Kate, you have to, you have to. want it and really work at it. But with as much as you can do that, writing can be a really wonderful tool in that as well. And reading as well, like reading is something that, you know, also fosters that kind of empathy and compassion and sometimes can show you a way that you might not have occurred to you. Yes. That's what you were saying was making me think about, it was reading is I've always loved how you can experience so many different people's experiences

with reading. And then you do have those moments sometimes where you're reading something and like something clicks because of the way like the character dealt with something. And maybe you hadn't thought about it that way ever. And then you have a total paradigm shift. And that part is always so cool for me. Or when you just resonate really strongly with a character. I'm always thinking of revenge, which I was about to go into like like revenge.

and I'm like, not everyone is going to be like, yeah, revenge. But every now and then I really resonate with the character too. And then you're like, oh, okay. So like, even if a writer wrote this, someone else like gets this feeling. I mean, and we're with you. Our first three books are heavily driven by revenge, if not entirely. Yes. Yeah, they really are.

There's a reason we connect. And even that, I mean, Greg and. and I as people are not vengeful at all. You know, certainly we have a wide range of emotions and anger is one of them. And just speaking for myself because I don't live in Greg's head. Sometimes. A little bit. We do my belt.

Right. We do. We do. And indignation, these are all things that I think are really like, I feel hallmarked to my emotional experience, especially in context of like, trauma that I've experienced. So when I can leverage fictional characters to exact, you know, vengeance in like kind of like direction or towards characters that maybe I would have liked in real life, that is like magic. I mean, that's a way to like commit the perfect crime and you don't have to do the time. Yes. I am with you on that one. There's a character I'm

writing right now who is just how I'm trying to find the right word to say um just really insidious and it has been fun writing some of it and seeing people's reactions and then I'm like oh see that person that I'm modeling it after really is insidious I'm right let me ask you in that in the process of writing then is there are you finding a catharsis and exploring that and examining that? I think so. I do think so. This is kind of like a long answer to it. But an example is in Ashley Winsteads,

because we have to talk about Ashley Winston at some point. In Midnight is the darkest hour. Ruth, her main character, is like 19 years old. And has her dad's like really fire and brimstone. preacher, I think preacher, not pastor necessarily. And so when I was reading it, there were a few times where I was like, just stop letting them treat you like this. Like, just stop.

And I remember even kind of saying it to Gare and him being like, yeah, but like she's like 19. And it's still new to her. And like 19 was the exact same age that I was when I like started questioning things and started going to therapy. And I was like, oh yeah, just because you're like. Like not 18 doesn't mean in certain situations that your parents have like let go of you or that you feel like you are completely an adult. They may have still convinced you you aren't. So I've been thinking about that example because there's basically a character I'm writing who has been convinced by her parents that it's like we know what's best.

And when you don't do it, things go wrong. And here are all the examples of how bad it is. when you don't do exactly what we say. So that part has been cathartic, and it's helped me also kind of remember. I'm so removed now as an adult from a place where everything was very restricted, and there were a lot of rules.

And it's helped me kind of think again of what it's like when you haven't had that realization yet, too, like having more empathy for because it's like I have this I have a strange my a lot of my childhood memories are cringy to me basically and so that's a really weird experience for me that like my childhood memories don't feel like myself um so that part has been cathartic writing a character who's kind of struggling with something I struggled with so long ago. So yeah, it has been. Yeah.

It's unique. But then like doing it in a different, like it's reality TV family instead. So still kind of moves and a little more fun. But yeah, it's been reminding me what it's like before you have the realization that you have your own power. Well, I'll just to keep the Ashley Winstead love train going for a little longer. I would say from the flip side of that as a reader, there's something. something very cathartic about her writing too because her books take on a lot of institutional power structures, a lot of traditional patriarchal power structures. So as a reader, there's something

so cathartic and freeing and sort of release, releasing about reading that so done so well. And again, she's bring it back. She's also a writer, I think, who possesses great empathy and compassion. And so he's able to write really nuanced take. that are confrontational to those power structures that she's addressing but at the same time you know humanizes that she's not she's not writing these kind of cardboard villains you know these two-dimensional ther's and things like she's getting into the the grit and the granular essence of a lot of the stuff that she's writing but doing it in a way that is confrontational and it's calling out a lot of these things yeah i agree i that is

what I love about all of her books for sure. And it's there are just her characters just feel so real. Like every single character just, yeah, just feels super real. I love that part of her books. What you said made me think of something else, but it has completely skipped my mind. Oh, well, what I finally realized that what I, I didn't do it intentionally, but then it's one of those things where you're like, did I do it intentionally? And I just didn't know. But I mentioned somewhere. I don't know where I've said it before, so it might have been on here. But my main character is a journalist who knows that this reality star killed her best friend in college.

But she doesn't have any proof, and so she couldn't do anything about it. And then she gets, basically she's been working in a magazine for like five years since it happened. and she gets the opportunity to do like a long form piece on the family and she decides to take it and to try to kind of like investigate basically. But her tone is like so snarky and angry and like so against like mega fame to the point of like are you being a real person. So hers is like this really angry perspective. And then what I started writing back when I started this June challenge with Hallie, I was like, I need to know the family's lore before my main character goes and meets her. So I've been writing the family's lore.

And what it made me realize was that actually I'm doing both sides of it. So I'm doing the side that like rolls their eyes at mega fame and like how fake people can become. But then because I am writing in this perspective from this daughter who basically grew up in TV is that I actually am doing the empathetic side too that's like they're still people. So it's like kind of fun that I'm going to get to write both where like I have fun being snarky about it. And then it was a little harder to like shift into the more emotional part. But I was like, wait, I without like purposefully saying that's why I was going to do both perspectives, I've actually managed to get to do both perspectives with it, which has been fun.

And I think that makes for a really like emotionally resonant, you know, complex story if you have different perspectives. You know, I think that a lot of people dismiss thrillers, especially as far as genre fiction, as being one dimensional or having one dimensional characters. But just for what you described, you know, if you have these kind of absurdist or larger than life portrayals in your case, you know, reality TV, which is a great trope because of. It's like metaphor upon metaphor. Yes. But then you show it from a few different angles. You get that kind of prismatic narrative. I think it makes for like very interesting.

I mean, Ashley Winstead does this beautifully. I could mean probably five thriller writers out right now that have done this really well. And I think Gillian Flynn did this with Gone Girl, which is kind of like the seminal. Yeah. Complex character thriller. You know, you see these kind of. of especially with snark. I think that's such an effective tone if you can counterbalance it with earnestness or, you know, authenticity.

Yeah. So everything you're talking about is such a great setup for a really dimensional novel, you know, especially one where people are being one way, you know, front-facing and then you get to see kind of how they really are. I mean, isn't that the quintessential imposter character? Did I lose internet? Right. And also the narrative tension you can imbue in the story with that chasm between the two. That rub.

Yeah. I have to mention because it's such a perfect example of it and just came out, Bodies to Die For by Lori Brand does it really, really well because she loves. literally took inspiration from like their super fit culture and then there is it's kind of called like healthy at any size and how both of those have kind of started warring with each other like body positivity from more overweight people or traditionally less attractive people and how that kind of turned from like body body positivity meaning we should all be able to feel good in our bodies turned on that side to like we hate skinny people and they're the they're the

bane of our existence so she was like seeing both of those rise up and conflict with each other and so her main characters are from both sections of that debate or whatever and it she just she killed it She really managed to talk about body image with that much nuance. And she covers so many aspects of it and still wrote like a really cool thriller that has like very fitness culture related deaths. Like it was, it's just, it's really unique. And it just like has that tension of being on like totally opposite sides. How to get to the list. Yeah.

Lori is a is a bodybuilder herself, right? yes yeah she's one she did yes she did um bikini bodybuilding and then that's like the main competition that's happening during the book so yeah and she still i don't think she does competitions but she is fit like in the gym posting cool gym videos all the time did i drop out possibly so that's got to be yeah you did but you're back now um okay i think just, I mean, to write from that psychological perspective, too, of being in a culture that's so body image specific, that's so kind of diligent about that. That's got to be, that's going to be interesting to write from that perspective. It is. And I don't want to give anything away. But the

way she culminates at all is really, really powerful. Like, I got choked up at the end of the book, just the way that she managed to make both character arcs end in this really cool way. But I want to say for anyone who wants to read it or has already read it, I'll put the link in the show notes. She wrote a blog about why she felt compelled to write the book. And she really talks about her experience with eating disorders growing up. And like the shame she had for so long for so much of her life and how she's like, why, like, she was even objectively in great shape and felt terrible about herself.

So she has the, the blog she wrote about why she felt called to write the book is really, really cool too as well. So I'll add that to the show notes for anyone, because I read it after I'd read the book and I was like, this is powerful. It's very powerful. Yeah.

I think you guys kind of talked about it, but what was the inspiration for the podcast? Like, when did you guys start having conversations about it? We kind of know why you wanted to do it, but was there like a inspiration moment that, like, started it? Yeah, I mean, I think it was, we have trust issues, which is our fourth novel coming out in January. And we'd been working on that for a year. and we made the decision with Dutton, our publisher, that we were going to publish it under our names, as opposed to EG Scott, which is the pen name we've used for our first three novels. And at least for me, but I think both of us, we had started to discuss this, like, sense of, you know, this is going to be a change.

We're not going to be writing behind a pen name, you know, and we're going to have our actual names on the cover and what does that mean? and of course we're going to promote the book and talk about the book, which is one of the places in this writing profession that I feel the most imposter syndrome. I don't necessarily enjoy going out and doing events, not that I don't love to see people or feel the love for our books. And I actually really enjoy talking about our books, but just kind of getting up in front of people is a challenge. And I think just in the natural course of talking about these feelings, we talk about imposter

syndrome and where that pops up for us. And we had been on your podcast. And I think it was following that. I think we even made a joke, like we should start a podcast because there's not enough of them. And Greg and I just were on one of our weekly Zooms. And we were talking about kind what we could do in the interim leading up to our book. And also, what could we do to use what we had learned in the course of researching our book? Because trust issues is all about a family that's been taken by a con artist and the, you know, what they do in response to that and then the kind of pathology of the people involved. And we've learned so many cool things. And, you know, I think we're both living with all of this knowledge about impostors among us.

us. So the intersection was kind of evident and then the podcast was born. Greg, I don't know if I left anything out. No, I mean, you and it really was, I mean, I'm going to credit you on this one because this was really your brainchild. I feel like in a lot of ways. I mean, it was definitely the things that we had been, as you said, we had been researching and discussing amongst ourselves, but you thought, you had that thought of like, oh, why don't we, this would make a really good podcast conversation topic and theme. And the other thing, I think, is because the more we've now gotten to know writers and met writers and made connections and things like that, you know, you'll be at a writing conference and you'll be hanging out with a bunch of writers. And it inevitably, at some point,

the discussion turns to imposter syndrome. And I think we realized, and other creatives that we know as well, not necessarily writers exclusively, creatives that, you know, Scott Leeds, who we had as an author and also a musician who covers a number of different aspects. We just realized that in a, generally in a creative life, you are faced with a lot of imposter syndrome. And so we just thought, oh, that's a, that, it's a, it's a great unifying theme, I think, that people can again get on board with and discuss and hopefully hash out a little bit of whatever their version is.

And that will hopefully help, you know, the, the guest a little bit, help us, help the listeners. It's something where, again, you can build and foster community in this thing that has been, maybe people feel a little bit self-conscious about talking about, but ultimately, I think everyone has a version of it. Yeah. Yeah. Scott had an interesting point in his where he talked about how, like, and again, he was, like,

very quick to be like, my best friend's a plumber. I'm not talking down on people in this profession. But I really liked his point that, like, in some jobs, it's like, this is how you fix a clogged toilet. Or, like, this is how you install an HVAC system. Like, it's, there is one way to do it. You generally, like, go through training, learn how to do it, maybe get some accredation for it. And then you approach it that way. And I, but I liked his point a lot where he was.

I don't know that in that situation you would have imposter syndrome because you're just like, okay, this is what I have to go do today. I can check it all off my list. It will be definitively done. And like there's not just like all of the things like sometimes even when I'm writing now, it's like, I don't know if that scene was that great. And it's like, I'll just keep going. I can come back to it or whatever. But like I feel like you're in creative stuff, you can get stuck in so many thoughts of like, is this as good as it can be? Is there anything else to change versus just like something where you follow directions and then you know you're done?

So I love what he brought up about that. Not that like maybe a plumber has imposter syndrome with like being a new dad or something like that. Like you could have it in other areas of your life. But I liked his like point that like kind of because writing is so or creating things can be done so many different ways. It's kind of hard to like know when you're done or if it's good. Right. Right. Well, I think there are certain things. That brings up an interesting point. There are certain professions where you have objective. Yeah. The creative arts are so subjective

that it's kind of possible. I mean, even we, I mean, I feel like maybe the three of us have fairly similar tastes and books and things like that. But you can have someone who loves one book and have someone else who hates the same book. And both of them have legitimate reasons for that. You know what I mean? Everything is subjective and that I think is hard to live in the headspace of because it really is kind of impossible. You know, there's not one correct way to do it where you can say, well, that that's done and check it off the list, as you said, right? It's right.

There's a million ways to do it depending on who your audience is or where even, even day to day. I mean, I'll write something one day and love it, right? I'll come back in a good. What is this? Yes. You know, like who do I think? Yes. So it's a subjective that it's almost impossible if you're engaging with something.

And it's, and presumably you're engaging in an emotional plane because it's something that needs something to you. So you're engaging in a subjective subject on an emotional plane. Yeah. Good luck. I know. There's nothing sure about any of that. And I also think that there's an important, you know, degree of certain personality profiles are attracted to certain creative jobs while others are attracted to, you know, like neurosurgeons,

for example, we don't want neurosurgeons to have imposter syndrome. And, you know, or be creative on the job. Exactly, exactly. There's a finite number of ways that they need to do what they do. probably only one way, generally speaking. And I think that job and there's a whole, you know, there's books about, you know, what personality types are drawn to what professions. And there is a link between introversion and imposter syndrome. That's like actually one of the essential links. You know, people with imposter syndrome by and large seem to identify or be classified as introverted.

So that gets interesting, though, when you, look at creative jobs that are in the, you know, very much in the like front facing realm, you know, like entertainers, celebrities. You know, I wonder if someone like Taylor Swift has imposter syndrome. I wouldn't think it looking at her. I'm not necessarily a fan myself, but I understand from every single other person I know on social media, they are, you know. All of the news sites.

But it's, you know, you wonder where there's certain careers that you might have a cross-section of people who have both imposter syndrome and also incredible confidence in their talent and their art or their need for outside validation. But, you know, I feel comfortable that there are a number of professions. Maybe plumbers, as Scott talks about extensively, but, you know, surgeons would be one, you know, truckers would be another, you know. Yeah. Arborists, people who have like high risk either to themselves or to their clients. I'm hoping that those are the people with the least amount of imposter syndrome. Yes. I wonder that a lot or not wonder about it. I'm intrigued by it with performers because there are some, there are some like musical performers that will talk about how they are introverted. And so, but like they're also so drawn to creating. music. And so they're still like, okay, well, I'm going to go out there. Or actors, I feel like

is where it's even more common that you're like, you think they'd be an extrovert, but they're actually super introverted. And it's, they're not always performing for a whole audience when they're doing it. So then like, sometimes they're like, oh, doing these like press kits for a movie is terrible. Like, I hate it. I'm exhausted. And like doing fan interaction is so difficult. And I've always thought that was a really interesting contradiction for someone to have to live with. Like it's almost made me feel bad for people in those. Because like with writing a book, there's still the part because when you were saying you don't love doing events, I've thought about that as well. Or I've been like, I'm kind of glad not that my podcast is going to do all the press that I would need to do if I had a book.

But I would prefer doing it this way than like doing a lot of in-person events. So then when I think about people who like can't get around that though, I'm like it would be so difficult to live with like I really love acting and I get all of this energy from it and I'm successful. So then people want to meet me. But then like just because the thing they're naturally drawn to, people assume they're extroverts. And and then they're not like it would just it would be so hard like being actually being someone who's creating and not necessarily wanting. fame because I've also always said like I would love to be a Hollywood adjacent but I don't want to be famous like it would be cool to write on a set or something like to be close enough to the behind the scenes stuff that I could like talk to people I was interested in and all of that but

like I don't want to be famous yeah well it's again you know we talked a little earlier about that study and contradictions and there's a thing with I think with again I'm speaking in general but I think most writers would probably label themselves introverts, but then there is that extrovert thing where, you know, you're going to conferences and you're speaking, you're on panels and you're doing book events and so on and so forth. And that's another one. You know, Liz and I recently were at Thriller Fest. And you have these conversations with people. And I think at a certain point, it's funny. You can almost see the energy in the room shifting by about day two where it's a bunch of introverts who have to put on their extrovert mask and kind of, you know, And it's a lot of fun. I mean, that's the thing about it. It's a lot of fun. And it's wonderful to see all these people. But it's just at a certain point.

Inevitably, you start to wane. Hannah Morrissey had a great, she referred to it at one point as, I heard her refer to it as her social battery. Like at some point she kind of dipped out because she had to go recharge her social which is stuff. Which I think of in those terms now. So, yeah. You're to maintain your levels.

you know, certainly, yeah. It's another one of those things that is kind of contradictory and it's, in its, you know, in its,

that's what, because I'm an introvert and my husband, my husband's closer to an ambivert. He's not a full extrovert, but compared to me, he's an extrovert. So that was something we covered in therapy a lot together when we were in therapy.

And that was the distinction our therapist made is that introverts, introverts get energy alone, so they recharge their battery alone. Extroverts gain energy from being with people. And so there are so many people, like our conversation gives me energy kind of because of what we're talking about. And that's what she talked about too is like an introvert may seem like an extrovert if they're not having to do small talk and talking about something they're super into. but at the end of the day, even all of my most favorite people, I could not hang out with for like eight hours straight feels like that feels like such a long time to spend with people. I know I technically could, but it's like no matter what, like eventually I get to the point

where it's like, I do just need to be alone. And then everything feels better after like an hour. So it is. It's like even when you're loving the people you're with, all of a sudden sometimes, you're like, oh, I'm done for the day. Right, right. It's not personal, you know. No.

I think it's also just personal preference and where you are. I mean, Kate, you said before we started recording that you're a mood reader. I relate to that a lot. I'm also like a mood socializer. Like there are just certain days where if, you know, given the option to read a book or sit down and write or go to an event, you know, nine times out of 10, I'm going to pick a former. But it's not because I don't like people or enjoy people. I get so much out of being around people.

And I get a ton of inspiration as a writer. I think as a creative person I need to be out in the world. But I also think that it's about how comfortable I feel being for myself, being myself all the time. Sometimes I just need to kind of be quiet and, and process everything and often write it down or read to kind of like fill that cup. Whereas Greg and I have a mutual friend who is the most extroverted person I know and I've seen her just plow through, you know, event after event, party after party.

It just is, it fills her in a way that, you know, I would need to probably check myself into a hotel and sleep for seven days. Yes. Yeah, and the same way. For sure. There was a, there was one week a couple years ago where like a lot of people reached out at once and wanted to do stuff. And so I ended up like having something every other night. And by the end of it, I was like, I can't do that again. I was like, Tyler, you're just going to have to go alone to some of these things. Because I just get irritable. And then I'm like, I'm not fun to be around right now. And that's self-care and also consideration you for your others. Yeah, I was going to say, I'm taking care of you too.

Yeah. Sometimes you just need to lay on the couch, in my case, with a dog and read. Mm-hmm. And then it does. You just feel better. Has there been anything that has surprised you guys? Like, was there anything that you ended up really loving about recording some of these episodes that you did it? expect going into it.

I mean, there have been a lot of amazing anecdotes from authors that we've known personally that I was surprised about. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. We had the amazing Fiona Davis on, and she's the New York Times bestselling author of many incredible historical fiction novels. And I know her. personally. And to have her talk about how imposter syndrome shows up in her life was so helpful

for me to hear as, you know, a friend, but also as a writer. Because, you know, to look at Fiona's career objectively and to see how she kind of operates in the world promoting her books, you know, she's a prolific speaker. And she can't just get up and say, this is what my book is about. She's writing about, you know, in-depth history. So there's an incredible amount of journalistic substance behind what she's doing. And she really is, she teaches in a lot of ways. But to hear her talking on our podcast about having imposter syndrome at all was a surprise. But then to hear her really talk about it candidly and vulnerably was, you know, it was such a gift. You know, I'm so grateful that the authors who have come on the show have felt safe

enough and have trusted us and trusted the listeners and then really been able to talk honestly. That's one that's coming to mind. Greg, I'm sure you have some too. I think what's interesting about this is because it's less project based, let's say, than some podcasts, you know, we're not necessarily having people on to talk about whatever book has just come out. We'll touch on, obviously, current projects and projects over the course people's careers and things like that, but because we're not specifically promoting projects, I think it also, the formal allows for a lot of what this is talking about can get into these conversations that sometimes will meander into things that are a little more, you know,

they're more kind of headspace-based or more experience-based or background-based. And you do really, once you kind of delve into those topics, they can yield some pretty interesting results, interesting reflections. So it's been pretty fascinating to kind of let these conversations go where they go and see where they that makes sense. Yeah. Just getting to know people on a different level even. It sounds like even people you knew already.

Right. You know, you get somebody on a mic for you and get a conversation and suddenly you think, you know, something new is for some in some cases yeah yeah that's somewhat similar to something I was just telling my husband about was so mine is well my Tuesday episodes would be more project slash press tour kind of base it's more books that are coming out that day um and I mean I have people on if I enjoy the book so it's like all of the books I've enjoyed But the thing you like, sometimes I'm like, oh, I love this book. I'm going to have so much to talk to this author about.

It'll probably be like a really long interview. And sometimes those are so short and you're like, okay. I mean, I still really loved the book, but I really thought like based on the book we would have tons to talk about. And then sometimes it's a book where you're like, I really enjoyed this book, but I don't have tons of in-depth questions to ask about it. And then sometimes you just connect with a person so much that you end up talking for a really long time to you. So not exactly what you're saying, but I've been, I've been surprised by like where conversations go,

especially since sometimes these are people I haven't talked to at all. So you like have this expectation of what it's going to be. And then there are times where just like goes the total opposite direction still. Yeah. Which I find also to be an interesting parallel to the writing experience. experience itself, a bit of what Liz and I talked about on our first episode of Imposter Humph-Hupe one another was how Liz brought up this wonderful thing about how at a certain point the characters start writing you, I think was the quote.

And it's, you know, you go into a book, presumably with some sense of what you're going to, you know, more or less with from writer to writer. Some people go in with a very specific fleshed-out outline, some go in a little more as what we call Pancers and kind of find a way. on the story as they write it, but there's that thing of sometimes going in with less expectation or less presumption, as you're saying, sometimes opens up magic in, in, in, you know, writing as well. So it's almost like in a way taking that sensibility and applying that to speaking with other writers and other creatives. And a lot of times, that's kind of where the

magic flows from as well. So it's kind of a fun. That's a really good point. Yeah. It is a similar feeling because, yeah. Go ahead. Well, this is a little bit different, but it spawned this thought in me that way back in the days of viewer when I was young in publishing and a book publicist, and the media landscape was totally different. I mean, there was like local media, local radio, local print, a lot more events. You know, you could send an author out on the road and they could have a full schedule. and when they would do those interviews, you would really need to be able to talk about your book in like 30 seconds, two minutes,

and five minutes like chunks. You could really only get in depth unless you were doing like a long format radio show, which was really reserved to kind of like the bestselling authors or your events. And I think with the advent of podcasts, you've really been able to give writers, creatives, you know, fill in the blank, a lot more of a runway to talk. And it's not just about, like, give me the elevator pitch. You know, what do you want to talk about as far as your process, about who you are, where you came from? And I think that's where the best information, you know,

lives. You know, it's kind of in between the elevator pitches. And, like, that's all very necessary for selling, marketing, promoting, publishing a book. Social media. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, one of the things that I've loved about our show and then, you know, the shows you do and so many other great podcasts is I think people get on the show with this like different kind of mindset. You know, there's more time.

There's different questions. And there is a culture that's been created where, you know, people want to know more. you know, listeners want to know the nitty gritty. They want to know the vulnerable. They want to know the things that you wouldn't normally hear on the Today Show or even NPR. And there have been moments in the shows that we've done where I'm like, this is not ever something that would have been discussed in like a mainstream media platform then and now. But, you know, how lucky are we? and some authors basically, like, they have their, like, their pitch, their stump speech for their book, and that's what they get to say, and they say it over and over and over.

And you can listen to a bunch of different interviews and hear the same thing. But I think there's things that people have said on Imposter Hour that they maybe haven't even said out loud. Right. Because no one has just asked them the questions that are kind of central to the themes we're exploring. One thing I just- go ahead go ahead no i just one thing occurred to me that has been a surprise but not a surprise on our show is that i think every author we've had on has talked about how many unfinished projects they have which is really validating to hear as someone who has a lot of unfinished projects yeah um i'm gonna

just keep talking about joe rogan on this podcast apparently but there's what you were talking about of a really short elevator pitch type, talking about your book versus long form, something that someone else brought up about Joe Rogan's podcast a couple of years ago. I read an article where, like, we're obsessed with how everyone's attention span is this big nowadays, like totally tiny. No one has an attention span.

And yet the most successful podcast, at the time. I think he's, I mean, he's still close to number one. Is three to sometimes five hours long, depending on who he's with. And he's been, and podcasts like his have been stealing airtime from like people watching the news or cable TV and stuff. So we're kind of in a weird spot where like, yes, if you're on social media, you're in the mindset of I've got to stop someone scrolling and tell them something as quickly as possible and keep them engaged since there's all this other stuff to look at. So, like, that is simultaneously happening at the same time that podcasts are really flourishing. And it's not just Joe's that are sometimes two plus hours long.

There are a lot of the really popular ones are at least more than an hour. So it's like at the same time, there clearly is interest for long form getting to know people. content, maybe just not when you're scrolling. Yeah. Well, it also, as we're talking about this, this is occurring to me. And I'm curious to know if there's a correlation. You know, we're talking about social media a little bit. We're talking about more kind of traditional information sources. And I think that it feels like because of those things are so curated, they're so hyper curated and hyper

messaged very specifically. I wonder if there's a little bit in what we're talking about. the appeal is in the backlash to that and pushing away from this idea of things being curated. Like Liz was talking about the 30 second, two minute, five minute elevator pitch that you go in and you do the spiel and you leave, right? If there's something that we want to key into where, and as Liz also just mentioned, you know, the messiness, right?

And the kind of seeing how things are going behind the curtain. Because I think we've been fed so much of this aspirational curated content. And people are, you know, have begun to sniff out the fact that that's not what the, what really is. You know, and then there's something kind of unhealthy about that if you're just assuming that without having any kind of framework and context of how to take that information in. Yeah. Yeah. Similar to that, there was a point because I'm very intrigued by Taylor Swift. And I'm also very intrigued by everyone's reactions to Taylor Swift is what's.

even more interesting to me. So I was very heavily into Swift Talk, which is the Taylor Swift side of TikTok for a while. But what I started to notice was just because I was consuming so

much of her, which is not me consuming her when she wakes up and rolls out of bed as we're kind of talking about here. Then I would like get on to record a podcast and be like, oh my God, like my hair is horrible.

And like my skin is like, like, looks like skin, essentially. And it was like, body image is always going to be something I think women especially always are going to have thoughts and feelings about. But I started noticing that, like, it was way more in my mind that I'm like, oh, I don't look like a paparazzi picture of Taylor coming out of dinner where she was planning for people to be taking pictures of her. Like, everything in my mind was adjusting to like looking that perfect all the time. And I was like, okay, maybe I don't need to consume so much as that.

But like, that comes back to my argument I've had with people too, where it's like, it's also on you to be able to catch that in yourself. So it's like it's not all that social media is negative and terrible and that it's corrupting you. Like, you also could maybe catch some of it and be like, maybe I don't need to consume this all the time. But it's crazy how much like your visual diet starts to change, like, how you see the world and yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in terms of like we were talking about earlier, about really like wanting to change, wanting to, you know, rework your neural pathways, for example,

like breaking maybe bad habits. I think there's a lot to be said for like self-curation as as self-care, you know, so like I'm 100% an Instagram addict, you know, I grapple with this often. One of the things that's been incredibly helpful to me is like when I look at a post and I feel a certain way, you know, whether it's compare and despair, less than, you know, basically any negative feeling I will unfollow if, and then I will try and replace it with something that makes me feel good. So, you know, my feed, as you can imagine, is almost entirely about books. You know, and there's other aspects of my life, you know, parenting. Yeah. I like to draw, like fine art, things, you know, music, comedy. And I found that it's really made that experience

healthier. And I think the same goes for what you listen to. It's just like you are what you eat, what you listen to what you look at. Yeah. I think it's easier for adults to have that relationship, whereas it's, you know, it's really pernicious if you're younger. And I feel very grateful that I wasn't a teenager during social media. For sure.

I know. Thinking about like middle school and high school with social media just sounds terrifying. Yeah. But then you don't want to not. I mean, Trayway calling was the worst thing ever. And that was the high of technology. when I was in middle school and high school. Yeah.

Yeah. It's just, yeah, it's crazy. Like, I, yeah. And then I know a lot of parents that have kids approaching that age. The other thing is you don't want to just completely keep them away from it. Because one, like they're going to go out in the world and it's going to be there no matter what. And then two, you also don't want to do the thing where you're like, this is terrible. You can't have any of it.

And then it just makes them want to. it even more. So I'm like, I don't even know how you figure that out, which is why I have dogs instead of human children. And they don't consume. They just end up on social media. But yeah, I think what you guys are doing kind of, of course, this all comes together because it was from the same subject, but having the longer form conversations about the more vulnerable part of creating stuff will kind of will help combat that for some people for sure. Part of it is getting into the stuff of selves. I mean, again, this is an extension in a lot of ways of what Liz and I talk about on

our own when we're having our zooms or when we're in the middle of book issue. We're talking about some other podcasts and other platforms. And one of the things that we talked about early on was, was ones, if you're familiar with my kids. Yes. Yes. When they started doing hodils, the initial setup was that Sean Evans was just going to have people on to interview and the guest was just going to eat the hens.

Right? For listeners, if you're not familiar, basically, it's a great show where this guy, Sean Evans, who's a wonderful interviewer. He's so good. And they have a great, another thing, and you kind of touched on this earlier, they have such a great research team that I feel like they dig into really interesting things. stuff so that the guest who comes on doesn't feel like they're just doing all the road red carpet interview type of stuff right but apparently what they were going to do initially

is they're just going to have the guest eat the wings and the wings get increasingly hot so by the end of it basically the guest just it's really entertaining because the guest just is losing yeah some of them are like crying some have like snot running down their face kind of hallucinating when you get to that point where you're in that kind of crazy heat schoolville range where you just start losing those really entertaining but they had to figure that out that the way that you make that really engaging is that the host has to be on the journey with them as well so that you're not you don't just have this guest who's like losing their shit right so yeah that was one of the things that Liz and I said earlier is you know we have to if we're

going to do something like this we also have to be able to show up and be willing to come to the table and meet people halfway and also be you know as as fourth coming and as kind of, I guess, vulnerable as we would want the conversation itself to be. That's kind of a guiding principle. That is a really cool fact that I'm sure I'm going to share with people in the future about that show. And everything you just said, you're like, oh, of course the host needs to do it. But like, I'd never thought of how you could have been thinking at the beginning of just

having the guests do it. If I'm remembering this correctly, I think it was Tony Yale, who was one of the early guests. And I think he was the one who actually suggested that to the, to the, I was like, yeah, if you're going to have people on this, you've got to be eating these things as well. And I think that was a little moment for that show. Yeah. Yeah. It's so cool. Yeah. And I think he's such a great interviewer. Oh. Yeah. He's one. The Paul Rudd interview is like one of my favorite. Yes. That show. But I was going to say for current authors we've had on and then even, even for future authors or creatives who are listening who come on the show, I think we will try

and match the vulnerability. You know, so if the kind of more candid people are in their experience, I mean, I've found myself sharing things that I didn't normally expect myself to share publicly. And same. I think it's really fostering that sense of like trust. Yeah. And that makes for really good content. and conversation, more importantly. And even in the first one we did where we interviewed each other,

we really wanted to kind of set the tone and also show people like we're going to be part of this. We're not just interested in probing and getting information from people like we're there with them. Yeah. It's not gotcha journalism. Essentially. We're trying to move in sort of the antithesis of gotcha journals. Yes. Yeah.

Well, I What, sorry? It's like you got us with the interview. Yeah. Whether you wanted us or not. It's not a choice at this point. You agree to this. Well, I have loved all the episodes that I've listened to.

So hopefully anyone who is interested in, it has been writers so far, writing even readers who are interested in writing or maybe writing themselves or people who just know what it's like to have imposter syndrome in any area of your life should go listen to it for sure so I will put the link in the show notes so hopefully people can go over there but thank you guys for coming on and talking about it much Kate and thank you for everything you do to make the show so wonderful Yeah. It's been a real pleasure. It's been a real pleasure for I'm bringing on this with you and learning the ropes as we go. Yeah. You're a kind of tutelage of us and sharing your experience. So thank you. Yeah. Yeah. It's been fun co-creating. Yeah. Indeed. Indeed.