Bookwild - Fatal Intrusion by Jeffery Deaver and Isabella Maldonado: A Serial Killer, Hackers and an Unlikely Duo

Episode Date: September 1, 2024

This week, I got to talk with Jeffery Deaver and Isabella Maldonado about their new action thriller Fatal Intrusion.  We dive into their joint writing process, the inception of the story, and creating a killer obsessed with spiders.Fatal Intrusion SynopsisCarmen Sanchez is a tough Homeland Security agent who plays by the rules. But when her sister is attacked, revealing a connection to a series of murders across Southern California, she realizes a conventional investigation will not be enough to stop the ruthless perpetrator.With nowhere else to turn, Sanchez enlists the aid of Professor Jake Heron, a brilliant and quirky private security expert who, unlike Sanchez, believes rules are merely suggestions. The two have a troubled past, but he owes her a favor and she’s cashing in. They team up to catch the assailant, who, mystifyingly, has no discernable motive and fits no classic criminal profile. All they have to go on is a distinctive tattoo and a singular obsession that gives this chillingly efficient tactician his nickname: Spider.Over the next seventy-two hours, Sanchez and Heron find themselves in the midst of a lethal chess match with the killer as they race to stop the carnage. As the victims mount, so do the risks. Because this spider’s web of intrigue is more sinister—and goes far deeper—than anyone could possibly anticipate. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

You shouldn't get up on a soapbox in a novel. You know, Samuel Goldman said, you want to send a message, you know, don't put it in a movie, go to Western Union, to the extent anybody knows what Western Union is anymore. But I think thrillers, let's say they transcend a basic do-em-up, a made-for-TV movie, if they deal with a slightly broader topic. And we can't say anything about it, but of course you've read the book, and you know the twist toward the end, is, oh my gosh, talk about intrusion.

For me, you know, with a background in law enforcement, it helped me in a couple of different ways. I mean, first of all, I write crime fiction. So I already have an idea of what the proper procedure would be. That's both a blessing and a curse because I know what's supposed to happen, but on the other hand, I have to take steps away from that. Otherwise, it would be the most boring book on the planet. This week I got to talk with a power duo of an author pairing, Jeffrey Deaver and Isabella Maldonado. They both have written multiple series on their own that are just absolutely action-packed crime fiction, and they came together to write a new series, and the first book in this series is called Fatal Intrusion. I could not put this book down.

It is like 440 pages, and I read it in a day and a half. was glued to the pages. But here's what it's about. Carmen Sanchez is a tough Homeland Security agent who plays by the rules. But when her sister is attacked, revealing a connection to a series of murders across Southern California, she realizes a conventional investigation will not be enough to top the ruthless perpetrator. With nowhere else to turn, Sanchez enlists the aid of Professor Jake Heron, a brilliant and quirky private security expert who, unlike Sanchez, believes rules are merely suggestions. The two have a troubled past, but he owes her a favor and she's cashing in. They team up to catch the assailant, who, mystifyingly, has no discernible motive and fits

no classic criminal profile. All they have to go on is a distinctive tattoo and a singular obsession that gives this chillingly efficient tactician his nickname, Spider. Over the next 72 hours, Sanchez and Heron find themselves in the midst of a lethal chess match with the killer as they race to stop the carnage. As the victims mount, so do the risks, because the spider's web of intrigue is more sinister and goes far deeper than anyone could possibly anticipate. There's so much I want to tell you about this book, and this is one of those where every time I go to review it, I'm like, I want to tell you everything, but you want to be just as surprised as I was by the amount of reveals and twists that they pack into this action-packed thriller.

It is so fun if you love crime procedurals, if you love action thrillers, and if you love the hunt to find a serial killer, you are going to love everything about this book and read it way faster than you think you will. That being said, let's hear from Jeffrey and Isabella. But before we dive into the book, I did want to get to know a little bit about your guys' backstory. So when, I know you guys have both written quite a few books already, but when did you know you wanted to write a book or that you knew you wanted to be an author? You want to go first or?

You mean when did we write a, no, we were going to write a book together or separately? Sorry, no, separately. For each of you, like, what was your like moment of like, I think I could write a book or something like that? Okay. Well, Jeff. then maybe you should go first because you started writing before I did. Sure. I was a nerd when I was growing up. And, you know, I was a nerd when the word meant something. Like now you're a nerd.

You're a billionaire with a cat app, TikTok video or something. But no, I just had no talent for sports or anything. But I was drawn to books and I love stories. I kind of lost myself in them. So, I mean, I was reading adult sorts of books. I mean, murder mysteries and thrillers, not young adult fiction, but like James Bond and John D. McDonald and Raymond Chandler at eight and nine. And I actually somewhat egotistically thought, well, I can do that.

And I might be able to come up with a better ending. Again, you know, hooverists of youth. So I started writing when I was about 11 or 12. But, you know, there are no prodigy writers. They're prodigy artists and musicians. But so I figured I needed to work for a while doing something that was kind of related to writing. So I went to journalism school. I was a reporter for a while.

I went to law to report on law. But oddly, I did well in law school, much to the shock of all of my prior teachers. And so I got a job practicing law for a bit. But all the while, I kept writing. And finally, in my 30s, I said, okay, now I can write fiction. I'm able to, I felt comfortable starting to write fiction. And then about, I guess it was 40, 35 so years ago, I was making enough at the writing to quit legal practice. So I've been a full-time novelist and short story writer since then. But it was kind of baked into the system. Yeah. And for me,

how about you? For me, I mean, I fell in love with books and stories also as a kid. And the book that really kind of moved me was a wrinkle in time. When I read that book, I was very young, and I just thought it was magic. And the way that the story just took me to a totally magical place, I thought, I want to be able to do this for people. And I think that what Jeff said is extremely true in that there are really no prodigy writers. And, you know, everything I tried to write, you know, as a really, really young, like teenager or what, you know, it was terrible, obviously. And so I decided that I just needed more experience, more life experience, because I felt like I wanted to have something to say. And, you know, as a, as a kid, I really didn't have anything

to say, I felt like. So then I, when I thought, you know, I'll just put that aside. And then later in life after I have more life experience under my belt, then I'll write. Well, I ended up going into law enforcement. And after 22 years with a gun and a badge, I had stuff to say. And so then that's when I was able to write and I felt like it really, everything just really clicked. And all the time I was reading, though, reading, reading, reading all the time. And that sort of gave me, I guess, enough, you know, information to know kind of what I wanted to write and how to do it. Yeah, that's really cool because I'm part of my review for this book. That's what I talked about. Like you can feel the fact that you were in law enforcement, just the way that it is written as well.

But it sounds like, Jeff, you were a journalist for a while and Isabella, you were in law enforcement for a while. So for both of you, then how did like those experiences affect the books that you write now? Well, in my case, journalism and law helped me in two regards. I mean, people say, well, Jeff, you were a lawyer and you write crime books. You must have been a criminal lawyer. And my answer is, well, I represented large multinational banks. So draw your own conclusions from that. But those both help me.

First of all, I'm a very pedestrian writer. In other words, I put sentences together, you know, not necessarily all subject, verb, object, but I'm not like a Cormac McCarthy or a David Foster Wallace. I respect style, but I'm not a real stylist. And that came from journalism. Communication is the most important thing. And I tell my students in the courses I teach, break all the rules you want when it comes to grammar, punctuation, syntax, and so forth.

But it's about clear communication. If the reader knows what you're saying, fine. And law helped me with research. I mean, I don't really, I didn't actually, I was joking a second ago. I didn't do any criminal law, but I knew criminal procedures and, you know, the Constitution and Bill of Rights and things like that. So that was helpful to me. And so those still are helpful to this day.

And for me, you know, with a background in law enforcement, it helped me in a couple of different ways. I mean, first of all, I write crime fiction. So I already have an idea of what the proper procedure would be. Now, that's both a blessing and a curse because I know what's supposed to happen, but on the other hand, I have to take steps away from that. Otherwise, it would be the most boring book on the planet. Every time a cop discharges a weapon, they're immediately taken offline, line and there's a big investigation and all the, you know, all kinds of these things. It would just,

it would slow down the pace of your thriller to have your cop taken offline for 30 days because, you know, they discharged their weapon or something. That's just one example. There's, there's a lot of other things that go into it. The other thing is very much like Jeff. And one of the reasons that we write together so well, and, you know, he was saying he got it from journalism. I got it from police work is a very direct, plain source. spoken style. You know, I can say both of us have a large vocabulary, but we don't deploy it in all of our writing.

It's a very direct, very plain style. And it's short and to the point. And that is because if you're doing your job right, your police report should not be creative writing. It's supposed to be just the facts, ma'am. So that is kind of, you know, how we both approach it. yeah it makes sense to just kind of like with the pacing that we were talking about before we were recording is like to keep the pacing moving kind of like you're saying you're not going to

follow every police procedural or police procedure or we would be like learning about paperwork instead of like catching the killer um and i i think why i just was so i could not put this book down Like I was reading while I was cooking. I was reading while I was drying my hair. Like just like doing everything I could to get through it. But when the when the description and the language isn't super flowery, we can just like get through the actual story. So I feel like that works really to your benefit.

The American writer Nathaniel Hawthorne said that a writer's words should dissolve into pure thought. So that the reader doesn't look at the prose and say, wow, that's beautiful. It's scintillating. have no idea what it means. The idea is to get what's in the writer's head into the reader's head with as little static and interference as possible. I love that. That's definitely how I prefer to read, for sure. So how did you guys decide to work together on a series? What's the backstory there? Oh, do you want to tell her about baby mafia? Sure. We first met in...

In 2017, I think it was at a conference in Chicago called Murder and Mayhem in Chicago. And it's a crime writers and readers conference. And we were there over St. Patrick's Day, which was fun for me because I had no idea that they died the river green. It was incredible to see. But anyway, so we're there at the conference and we're talking. There's like a green room for the writers who are on. who are giving presentations and I was in the green room and Jeff was there and Gillian Flynn was there and so the three of us started talking and we just started riffing on

what would be like a really wild story that you know that you could write that no one would expect it would be like you know well what if what if there was a crime boss and the crime boss was a baby and this was actually before that ever like became a Disney thing or whatever but we were we were talking about this and we were chatting and making jokes and we enjoyed each other's sense of humor and the three of us just kept laughing and laughing and also at some point jeff mentioned that something about being in uh living in rest in and that is where i was raised and that's where i'm from and it was like wow we had that in common too and um so that was the beginning of talking about how we you know just

First, we had to just like each other and get along together. And then later, we met again in 2019 at the Thriller Fest conference in New York City. And at that point, I actually approached him about blurbing a book, which is, I guess I'm lucky. I didn't realize I had to get through the first few pages. You hit the ground running. Don't worry. No problem. I always do.

I always do tend to write, like my stories start. fast. But yeah, so he read the cipher and he blurbed it and, you know, that just took off and became a bestseller and everything and it really worked. But Jeff got a chance to see my writing and then see that I write very similarly to the way he does. And there was even some readers that said, oh, this reminds me of Jeffrey Dever, you know, and that sort of thing. And then after that, we just sort of stayed in touch. And then eventually it was like, you know what, we should try doing this. And at first, Jeff was hesitant because he actually says he doesn't play well with others. I've never written a book with anyone before. He's never written a book with anyone before.

It was a complete, you know, leap of faith, but it worked out incredibly well. We were very lucky because we write third person, past tense, multiple points of view, short-paced, fast-paced, you know, generally short chapters. The books are not too long, maybe 100,000 words in the crime genre and the thriller genre. And the thriller genre is what we describe as asking the question, what is going to happen, as opposed to a murder mystery like Dorothy Al Sayers or accuracy, which asks the question, what happened in the past?

And that's valid. I mean, I love my twists, and I love my twists. learn those from Agatha Christie, among others, but the, that story is slower. It tends to be more character-driven, and that's not what either of us do. So we, you know, we meshed on all those levels. I could not write a, you know, Barbara Vine, the alter ego of Ruth Reddell, Barbara Vine wrote very dense psychological thrillers that were brilliant, but not a lot happened in them. I mean, it was all very internal, you know, brilliant, brilliant works, but that wouldn't work. I mean, we just had this groundwork together and it, you know, it moved on from there.

Yeah. How did you guys, so you would definitely have really similar styles. It wasn't, I didn't feel like when I was reading one chapter, I was like, oh, this is a different person writing. But I imagine you kind of divided it up in some way. So how was your writing process as you started to write the book together? Well, you want to run through the rough part? Sure. So, excuse me. So when we were pitching the book, you know, we had to put a proposal together and we both worked really hard on that, but we kind of knew what the story was generally going to be because we had to, you know, we wrote like a synopsis in the first four chapters. So we, we, We knew what the story was going to be.

And then when it came time to writing it, you know, we both do some outlining. However, I always say Jeff is a world-class outliner. I mean, he's very, very detailed. He will write a 40-page outline. I will write like a maybe 10-page outline, something like that. It's much more terse. Anyway, so we get the outline done first, and then we start picking chapter. And it's like, oh, you know, I'll write this, I'll write this, I'll write this, I'll write this, in the initial phase.

So we each do write individual chapters. But, and I think this is why you didn't notice a lot of difference with the chapters, is after that, when we get into the editing phase, we are both reworking and editing each other's work and going through it very, very thoroughly. And we are free to change things. And this is something that we always say, you know, there's a no ego zone. We declare a no ego zone. So that means you have to be willing to have the other person edit your work and, you know, change things. And it is, I think, absolutely essential. And I was really happy about that. I have always been very comfortable being edited.

But again, it's the first time either one of us ever worked together. And I, you know, I always, I say this, you know, Jeff could be a diva, but he's not. He didn't mind at all. As a matter of fact, he encouraged it. He's like, go through and, you know, make whatever changes. And I said the same thing. Go through and make whatever changes. And we both really made it our joint work by the time it was finished.

There were, you know, the question would arise occasionally. I don't really have a handle on this scene. Why don't you take that? And then it would come back to me and I'd say, okay, that's fine. And I maybe or maybe didn't edit very much of it at all. But, you know, it was, we just felt more comfortable at times about certain things. Isabella took more of the actual procedure because, yeah, there's that pesky little Fourth Amendment. Damn it, you got to read people their rights and all that sort of stuff.

I would be happy just shooting them, you know, immediate justice, but you can't really do that. Then, you know, a lot of the police procedure. And I know a bit after, you know, having written a number of books like this, I know weapons, I know procedure to some extent. But I also, because the book, as you know, has some cyber issues in it. And I've written about four or five internet oriented thrillers. So I was kind of comfortable writing that sort of stuff. And then we both did research, a great deal of research.

And there were times when people who read the book already, it's not out yet as we're having this conversation. But they'd say, wow, that was a great thing you wrote, Jevarez. No, I didn't write that. Isabella wrote that. I even said that about a passage that I thought she had written it. It turned out I had written it. So.

But then we also, so we had the outline. And then we worked very quickly, very in. intensely. And then we also did rewrite after rewrite after rewrite. And we worked with a stellar team at Thomas and Mercer. And, you know, again, I've done a lot of writing over the years, but there is never a single book of short story that cannot benefit from being edited. And if your ego gets in the way, well, you produce a less than perfect product for the readers, and that's a sin. You know, readers make, that's what this is all about. They are our gods. And if you produce a, you know, a less than perfect story for them, well, that's,

that's a crime. Yeah. That's really cool that you could just remove the ego and kind of like give each other feedback even. And then yeah, then you kind of got to go through the editing process together as well. What was like your initial inspiration for like the spoiler-free basis of the story. So like, how did you guys come up with kind of like what was going on in the story? Well, that was a little bit, Isabella's primarily. I mean, the, I can't actually remember what the specific Genesis was, but you had a kind of a rough idea. And then we both sat down and did the, you know, worked on the outline that went back and forth and it morphed and changed. And, you know, the, it's known, this book, Fatal Intrusion is known as all of our books for the twists and surprises

and twists and surprises. And after that, there are more twists and surprises because that's just exhilarating. And, you know, we'd get into the outline and then, you know, we'd say, oh, you know what, let's try this here. And then, okay, let's try that there. I tend to put in too many twists. And I think you would point it out, Isabella, that's, that. But that was maybe a twist too far. And we pulled back from that. But the general process was that we took the core idea and then ran with it. And it's the writing process.

Ideas emerge. And even in the writing process, some ideas emerged. I mean, the outline, this outline probably started being 60 pages, 60, 70 pages. And then it, you know, we, that was the first draft of the book. But then, yeah, okay, well, and that ended up being 80,000 words. Well, we need a little bit more. Oh, here's a good twist.

Oh, that's too much taken out. So it's a very organic process. That's cool. But you could write because it's so complex, everything that happens. But that's cool that you can still kind of, you can still be figuring it out organically as you write it, even though there's that much going on. Sure. Um, so I love the dynamic between the two main characters and it really made me realize how much I love the like badass female character with like a nerdy, not as like action equipped male. Like I just, I was just really enjoying it. Um, so how did you guys approach like creating those characters and did like either of you like spearhead one or was it still kind of collaborative?

Well, it was in the beginning we were trying to think we wanted to do, well, I always seemed to write these Latina law enforcement types. I mean, I've written a few of them now. And so we thought that's good. We should, you know, we should do that. But we wanted to do something that was fresh and that hasn't been done to death. And so we were looking around and thinking, you know, what is there, you know, going on or whatever? And we hit upon, sort of through a process of elimination, we hit upon HSI, Homeland Security Investigations, which is part of Homeland Security. And we're like, wow, that hasn't been done to death. I mean, I had to do some research, you know, to even learn about them myself. And so it's like, okay, that's cool because she would have jurisdiction really anywhere and even overseas, really anywhere in the world, she could get involved with stuff.

So it's like, okay, that gives some fun. And then, you know, Jeff knows California a lot better than I do. So it's like, well, let's base her, you know, in California. So he was really contributing a lot of that. But then we're like, you know, she needs a foil. Everybody needs someone to, you know, to work against or with or what have you. And that was really, you know, more of Jeff coming up with the idea of professor. Heron. What a fun character. And it's like it was sort of through the process of accretion.

Jeff was creating more about him. But the cool thing is that once he really solidified, I was able to write chapters in his POB as well as Jeff could because this idea that that really started with Jeff just became a whole person. It was great. Yeah. Yeah, it was a good. That's really You know, the oil is a good word that complement each other. And she is a badass, but a strict law enforcer. She takes the oath, of course. And Jake is, he's what's self-described intrusionist. That's his job.

And he lectures. It's like Cal, it's like University of California, Berkeley, although it's a private college there. And he lectures in public, does TED talks, although I don't, we don't mention Ted, but that kind of thing about the dangers of intrusion from, you know, corporate overreach, government overreach and even personal overreach, like domestic abuse, is a form of intrusion. And so he's basically saying, okay, you people have to be careful. You have to end up for yourselves and be very aware of the dangers of somebody crossing

the boundary. He analyzes all of life and history in terms of intrusion. And so, he is a nerd, you know, definitely a nerd. He knows which end of the gun the bullets come out of, but that's about it. And so he, but he feels very strongly about this. But by definition, he doesn't really give a, you know what, about the rules. And it's like, well, I'll do anything I can to protect people. And Carmen, of course, is like, whoa, wait a minute. No, we, if you don't color within the lines, to some extent, the bad guys can get away in court. And, We won't talk current events, but it just does happen occasionally that people can get away with things. And, you know, we feel that let's make sure the case is buttoned up entirely.

So that's Carmen's job. She makes sure that happens. I hope you're enjoying this episode of Book Wild. And if you are, could I ask you a favor? Could you go and rate and review this podcast and whatever platform you're listening? ratings and reviews make the biggest difference in discoverability of the podcast and I definitely want to find all of our fellow thriller readers out there. So if you could go rate the podcast and leave a short review, that would make a huge difference. Thank you.

And let's get back to the show. I thought Jake's Professor Heron, his whole world of being really fascinated with intrusions was so fascinating. And kind of like you were saying, you guys didn't want to do something that had been beat to death. And this was like very new to me. to hear someone who was kind of focused on like the way that you can invade on any level like you were saying like it even happens at a personal level it's happening in the internet like all kinds of levels um so what what made you guys want to like focus like focus a really an action thriller around because it really it really does i'm struggling to say what i'm trying to say but it really

pervades the whole plot, this idea of intrusions and being invaded. So like, how did you, how did you decide on that? Well, I think. Or did you create the character and then that kind of just did it. Yeah, I mean, I think you shouldn't get up on a soapbox in a novel. These are entertainments. You know, Samuel Goldman said, you want to send a message, you know, don't put it in a movie, go to Western Union to the extent anybody knows what Western Union is anymore. But I think thrillers can, let's say, let's say they transcend a basic shoot-em-up made-for-TV movie if they deal with a slightly broader topic. And we can't say anything about it, but of course you've read the book and you know the twist toward the end is, oh my,

my gosh, talk about intrusion. And that seemed to be a pretty good thing that would get people's eyebrows raised. Of course, I always think that when you write a book, you should do something like that to get a hook for publicity. But we can't talk about it because it's a big surprise. So in theory, it's a good hook for publicity, but we can't really talk about it. But there is a hook there everybody. Yeah. Yeah. The way it plays out is really cool. One of the other, I almost would say themes, but I don't know that it's a theme, is that we spend time in the killer's mind and he is obsessed with spiders. And I am terrified of them.

And so every time I was reading about it, I was like, this is so uncomfortable, but I have to keep reading. And the metaphor kind of extends throughout where like he's kind of wanting to approach his kills the way. spiders do. So when did you have, when did that idea kind of come in to include that as a part of I'll blame my co-writer for that. So she may want to address that. That is, that is good. I mean, that was actually baked in from the very beginning. The very original kernel of an idea involved a spider. And we ended up, you know, changing sort of how it was going to play out. But that was always there. And like you, I, I, I, I, find spiders horrible and awful and I almost arachnophobic. But it's like, okay, then, then, you know,

then this is something that it's a good, it's a good way to write about someone who, you know, sort of embodies those things. And it's not just the, the creep factor, but actually when you start researching spiders and Jeff is the king of research. And he, he probably, knows more about spiders than a lot of people right now. But it turns out they are kind of fascinating in a horrible way. They are very different, the different species. And we do go into it in the book. And, you know, this is how he's doing it and this, that, and the other thing. And it really is kind of a fascinating way to do it. And but yeah, it was always baked in. Yeah. That's cool. And it made it like really unique and like memorable in a different way. So

And there were times when I was like, I'm about to fall asleep. I need to stop reading this because I'm notorious for having dreams with like big spiders coming through the window. Oh, thank you so much for that. I really appreciate that. Yes. Yeah. But I really enjoyed it. I thought it was a cool approach and like kind of added to the like chapters when we were in his mind to kind of like understand him a little bit more.

but another question I had so something kind of randomly cool that's a through line through this podcast was I had someone on who had been at thriller fest and I asked her what her favorite panel was and she brought up the like how to write action scenes and I know you were actually on the panel isabel and I thought it was cool they had someone like actually acting it out and Greg who was acting it out has been on the has been on the podcast now as well. So we've kind of got this little action panel thing going on. But how do you guys approach writing action scenes? Because I hear different things from different people. Well, I hate it. Because, you know, the rule is you've got to make the book different. It's got to be a reader. I just

hate it when a reader says, oh, Ben, they're seeing that. I've got to, you've got to, you've got to you something different. And that scene, and we're, I'm sure we're kind of a PG-rated podcast, so I'll simply say adult relations, those scenes are very hard to write. And action scenes are very hard to write. Why? Because for 2,000 years, people have been writing those scenes. And it's hard to get a different take on it. So, but, you know, we get paid to tell a story. So you roll up your sleeves and you do it. So it's the least, least favorite. part of mine, but it gets done. Actually, that's a good question.

I don't know that we've ever been asked that, Isabel. Yeah. Well, for me, I borrow from stuff I've actually been involved with. Again, because I'm usually writing some kind of a law enforcement female. I just, like, what I do is I sort of go back in my memory banks and take things that I've been involved in, action situations, but I have to really blow them. up way out of proportion of what really happened to me because, you know, I wasn't involved in a bunch of shootouts and all this, you know, I know. So it's a matter of using your imagination to

augment it. But what I also do, and I feel like this is something that that I bring to the table that is different. A lot of people, it seems like these days, are writing female law enforcement types. But there aren't that many female law enforcement types who are writing. So it's like, okay, I need to do this authentically. So what I think is different that I do is I try to make my stuff more realistic in the sense of I don't take. And, you know, I blame TV for a lot of this and movies and stuff like that where you see a size zero actress or actor, you're supposed to say now. And she takes a 250 pound, you know, muscular man and throws him casually over her. shoulder. It's so ridiculous. And my own experience in in fighting with and arresting a man,

it is really hard to do. And you can't just, you can't have a fair fight and just like duke it out. Well, I shouldn't say you can't. There are very rare women who can do it and they have had a lot of training. And, you know, usually things like martial arts or something will figure in. but your average woman is not going to be able to do it that way. So I have my women use their brains and leverage the parts of their body like, you know, their core and their quadriceps and, you know, those parts of the hip flexors, those parts of the female anatomy that are more powerful. So, you know, I do that and then I have them use sort of clever ingenuity around,

or they have to use their weapons, which is, you know, what I had to rely on too, because otherwise it just is not, I think, going to be accurate and it feels wrong and I don't like it when I see that. Yeah, I do like that concept and that approach that it's like even like recognizing that they have to be a little bit smarter and what they're doing or they have to think a little more because they're at a disadvantage in that situation. that makes a lot of sense. One of the other things that the book focuses on, especially kind of with intrusion and invasion, is like the internet and AI as well, but also like some of the really hateful, dark corners of the internet as well

and how dangerous that can be. So did you guys do some research on that? I know you've kind of written books that encompass some of it, Jeffrey, but how did you guys approach, including those parts. Well, yeah, it's not really giving anything a way to say that there's a group of what, who we call with some disdainful affection,

if that's even a term, but the haters. And of course, in the language of the internet, that is the letter H and the number eight ERS, and that's kind of a group of young disaffected. I won't use it because we're a good podcast, but little creeps, we could say. And they live in basements and they don't really do much. They can't get a job. Well, they could, but they don't. And they complain about not getting a job. And they just want to go

online and play video games and then go to the, it's not even necessarily the dark web. It's just these chat boards. And they dis people and hate people. And there's a certain level of anonymity. You know, you can get a proxy or you don't necessarily even need a proxy. you can just sign on anonymously and just spew these vile hatred things. So it doesn't take much, you know, technical research to go online and find this kind of garbage. And so we thought that too was an important thing to talk about. You know, ideally of our millions and millions thinking optimistically, readers around the world, very, very few of them will have run into a serial killer.

or a, you know, a group of terrorists, but everybody has got a child, friends with children, or maybe parents or cousins or relatives, who are, you know, who are going through a difficult time. And this, what I call the soap opera element of a novel, I think is very important. So we try to be very, very accurate about, and also accurate, but also to, you know, use those emotions as well as the exciting car chase and shoot-em-up scene so that the readers say, oh, yeah, I know. I know that. And my heart kind of goes out to this person or I revile that person. And that's, you know, what makes, I think, a more engaging emotional experience of the book. I agree. Yeah, you definitely, there were multiple times where this book was reminding me,

like, oh, we really live our lives really publicly. And some people can really take that and do bad things with it, basically. It's kind of what that follows. So it does. It was making me reflect on even my own life as well. Let me ask my co-author a question, which I don't think I've ever asked before. Did you do like youth investigations when you were with the police department? No, I never did. But obviously you would run across. some of these cases, you know, but I never specialized, but certainly I had cases that I investigated that involved youth and juveniles and arrested them and stuff. It was just never my focus. And it is a very difficult and vulnerable time in someone's life and impressionable, and it is

really unfortunate. I think it's one of the things that we decided that we wanted to kind of talk about a little bit was, you know, the trolling that goes on. And that's really what, you know, some of we wanted to describe from a different perspective some of these trolls and um you know and kind of what they do and it it's a tangential thing but then it sort of does become involved in the whole plot i'm sure people who are listening right now are probably like what wait a minute we have spiders we have trolls we have you know there's a killer going running around she's with homeland What on earth? I know it sounds wild, right?

Well, it is wild. And you have to read it and understand, right? I mean, you've read it. There's a lot going on. Yes. But the weird thing is, I mean, it all comes together really, really well. And we're actually busily right now writing the sequel. So yes, we are.

I think this is the first time we're talking about it. We're writing a sequel. We haven't announced it before. You were there first, Kate. Yep. I know it was going to be my final question actually was well first I wanted to say to what you were saying that there's so much going on when I first started reading it my two friends who I talked a lot to about what I'm reading I was like texting them and I was like there's a serial killer on the loose there's a professor who in my mind I've made this really hot professor who is really concerned with privacy this woman's having to work with someone she swore she would never work with again and I've was like and there's hackers i was like and i'm at 15 percent right now i was like this book has just like grabbed my attention i'm sure they're just going to keep adding more things the whole time so

i loved that that was i was so hooked that there was that much happening that quickly um so i loved how everything came together but i did want to know do when you guys started writing it were you intending it to be a series was that how you even approached it yeah Nice. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I, when I started reading, I mentioned, you know, reading James Bond when I was eight or nine. And by the way, that sounds a little strange, but you have to remember that Ian Flammer

was writing in the 1950s and 60s. And it was a much tamer time then. I mean, he has a reputation for being a ladies man. And that was true to some extent, but everything happened off camera. And there were very few debts. And, you know, actually when James Bond, who was a higher disaster, you know, You know, he didn't have the right, double O didn't mean he had the right to protect himself. He was hired to go kill somebody.

He would go into a depression for four or five months after that because he had taken a life. So the books was somewhat, somewhat discerning. And, you know, the movies are quite different. I'm not a huge fan of the movies, but the books, the original books were quite something. So, you know, reading those stories, oh, I could not wait until my character would come back again. I just love the characters. And Travis McGee on the Busted Plush, his houseboat down in Florida, and, you know, Sam Spade in San Francisco, and, well, Sherlock Holmes, of course, and Miss Marple and Eric Kilparro.

I just love those characters. So we thought we'd give it a shot, and so, yes, Jake and Carmen will be back. We do have to finish the book. There is that, but, you know, it will happen. will happen don't worry yeah i trust that you guys can write another really great one i i can't wait for them to be back i'm very excited to read the next one for sure i just i loved their dynamic so much yeah it just worked yeah um i feel like i had another question from what you were just saying but it might have left my mind might have left my mind yeah that might be it um so where can people

follow you to stay up to date with everything so that they can get hooked on this series too. Well, there's a landing page for the book. Fatal Intrusion on Amazon. If you, you know, if you look it up, there's a landing page for the book that will, you know, give you all the information about that, where to get it. And also how to, you can pre-order the next one. You can pre-order this one right now. And then you can, soon there'll be a link up to pre-order the next one. We're, you know, just getting that finalized. So that's one good place to look. You can also find it right now, I think, at the moment, it's on sale for pre-order at Barnes

and Noble, but, you know, depending on when this airs, but, you know, you can also get it at Barnes & Noble. You can get it at a lot of independent bookstores. And then what we would, what Jeff and I would really love is we're having like a mini book tour and we would love to see everyone to come out. and it's going to be a lot of fun when we go to our live events. We're just having a, it's a small book tour, but we're going to have a great time doing it. And of course, either one of our websites, we actually link to each other's websites too.

So you can look up either one of us and you can get everything you need there as well. Indeed. Awesome. Yeah. Well, I will put all those links in the show notes so that everyone can keep up with everything. And thank you so much for talking with me about it. Okay, thank you so much. A real pleasure.