Bookwild - Female Rage Thrillers with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: November 22, 2024

This week, Halley and I once again commit to one subject, and end up covering multiple. On top of some great female rage thriller recommendations, we dive into the film Heretic, talk about religions' obsessions with rules and workarounds, and get into a brief rant about twists verses reveals (more on that in future episodes).Books with Female RageThis GIrl’s a KillerIn Defense of WitchesThe Lion Women of TehranThey Never LearnTheir Vicious GamesHouse WomanHer Name is KnightSmile and Look PrettyHurt for MeA Certain HungerLay Your Body DownOutEleven PercentThe Lady Upstairs Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Even in the dark times, we have fun. Even in the darkest times, Hallie and Iona have fun. And Hallie's looking cute, guys. You guys need to go look at YouTube for just half a second to see her cute little Bob because it just keeps getting shorter and shorter and cuter and cuter. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Yeah, it is just slowly going up the same way as my life trajectory is like slowly moving towards sunshine in California.

And now my hair is just getting shorter and shorter. Yeah, and blonder. I'm here for it. I love it. It just looks really cute with your face, too. I'm just going to compliment you for the first 10 minutes. Hey, I love this. Thank you. Well, have you? Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, no, you're good. Thank you. Me and my purple and pink. Yeah, I know. I love the pink lipstick. It's so kick ass. Yeah, thank you. It is. I literally. this is someone asked me about it on an Instagram um it's lip sense which was like this company that got really popular like kind of like right before the pandemic lots of people were selling it on like facebook groups it legit stays on forever like you can put it on and eat multiple meals and it stays on but i have two of my favorite colors and they stopped making them two years ago and so i slowly would

I slowly bought like 10 at a time until they were out of stock. So I have this huge backlog of this lip color because I'm like, it's my whole brand. What's going to happen when I read out? I love that, though. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like we always recap what we've read and watched recently. And because of Instagram, I know that you saw a heretic last night.

I did. I really liked it. I thought it was great. I am so here for Hugh Grant's villain era. Like, bring it on. And I'm not somebody who grew up with like a huge background in a church or in faith. You know, my dad threw on a couple Charlton Heston movies and was like, here you go. And like, you know, my understanding of the Bible, you know, I think we read stories from the Bible.

And interestingly enough, when I got to college, I feel like I analyzed the Bible. Bible from a literature standpoint because there's so much, especially in like American literature that like alludes to the Bible. So like that's honestly where like most of my like religious understanding comes from. So it was interesting for me, but I'm really curious about your take because I know you have a different experience with religion and I'm curious about like what the movie was like for you. Yeah. So a couple of things. One, I have leaned into the fact that even solo I can just talk forever. And so I did a whole Tell Me Lies season two recap a few weeks ago and talked for an hour and 47 minutes. And so I've been wanting to do more of these like long form things. So like this

is me saying I have so many notes on Heretic and I really do want to do like a long form breakdown of it as well. I just haven't had the time yet. So hopefully that's going to happen at some point because to your point. I did grow up in like highly high demand religion, I guess is what they kind of call it now. And so for me, this, there are so many things that were fascinating about it. So for anyone who hasn't seen the trailer at all, the really short gist that you need to know is two women who are part of the Latter-day Saints Church or Mormon Church. As we all know, they go like door to door, sometimes just anonymous or to anyone's, but in this case, they have like these people they're checking off. So they go to this man, Mr. Reed's house, who's played by Hugh Grant in his villain era.

And basically they go inside and things are pretty immediately off. And so even from the trailer, what you know is like now they're trapped in this house with him and like, how are they going to get out? and it turns into him like asking all of these questions really i think it's cool from from your standpoint that you just said that too these really like academic questions about religion and spirituality and so in that sense like he's the villain and it and it plays out that way like he is the villain um but i appreciated some of the like devil's advocate stuff or whatever that really is in there. Totally. I was like sort of with his viewpoint for a while until until it clearly, and you know he's the villain, but like the sort of academic argument he's making about religion

and like the things. But but then to the flip side, I also felt, and again, maybe I'm not the best person to have an opinion on this, but like I also actually felt like the movie never made the young girls the butt of the joke. They never made like they had rebuttals. They had really like salient points. They were pointing out the way. his logic was like flawed and like I just thought it was a stunner like I there's some stuff at the end that I sort of was like okay I don't know about that but like that always sort of the way a horror movie has to kind of like old but like I loved it I thought it was yeah I couldn't tell how it was gonna come together in the end either and there are things where I'm like yeah whatever but that like that that yeah for I without I'm making sure I don't do swole But it's like kind of the first and the second act, you're not, you could be following his logic, I guess is literally just what I'm saying. And it was reminding me of a lot of questions that came up for me when I was younger as well. And I'm jumping, I'm jumping around the spoilers in my head right now.

I know. I just, I think it's fascinating. this is something I can talk about because it doesn't really spoil the plot. But he highlights within this, within the movie, he highlights that so many religions, because it's taking place in America where, as I think we all know now, Christianity is really kind of coming back to the forefront, in my opinion. Not that never went completely away. There's a line early in the movie where they're talking about faith and I believe it's

Sister Barnes, who's played by Sophie Thatcher. I might have their names flipped, but the girl who's on yellow jackets and such a good actors. And she basically is like, I'm so glad to hear that you're a man of faith because we feel like religion is not always centered. And I like turned to the friend that I would sit with. And I was like, um, a few things would argue with that. Like, I don't know that I feel that's true actually in America at this moment. But okay. Exactly. Yeah, I felt the exact same way. I think I have that in my notes where I'm like, you don't feel like religion is centered. okay, which everyone's glad to have their different experiences of the world, but it's not my experience.

But one of the really, really interesting things that he talks about is how, and he's comparing a lot of things to Christianity or that realm of religions, because that's the main one that's popular, essentially. So he's saying, but then, so he's saying, but 1,000 years and 2,000 years and 5,000 years before Christ, there is the exact same, like, virgin gives birth to a God story. And having just come from Egypt, we talked about that in Egypt. There actually, there's like the god. I think they call it horse in the movie, but actually our Egyptologist said it was Ta' and a couple. of other, but there essentially is the, like, the Trinity. It's the mother son and like, or I'm sorry, not the Trinity. It's like the, basically like a similar like outline to the, yeah, to the, to the Christian story. And it's so interesting. Because I was like, that came up in the movie and I was like,

oh my God, I can corroborate. Like, it happened. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's a fascinating point. I like, like, in terms of recommending it, which is like even I posted a reel today about it, where I was like, well, first of all, if anyone's ever watched the good place, it, it feels like the good place, but horror was how I felt after I, like, left it. And I love the thought experiments in the good place. And I love just like the openness. And I think you, yeah, you were saying this too. I also don't feel like the movie comes down and says one way or another at all. I don't. I don't, and I feel like that wasn't, weren't ever. making these women, and they weren't making the women's faith the butt of the joke,

even though, like, as a secular person, them going into this man's home, I was like, just don't do it. But like, they, the girls are really smart about it. Like, they keep asking, like, where's your wife? She has to be present. Like, noticing all the things. They do the smart things that you never see in a horror film, which is like, okay, we got to get out. Who cares? Like, it's raining. I don't care. We got to go. And they, like, they can't. But, like, they really appreciated that they were not the sort of, like, final girls trope of sort of like, We're just like finally going into this. They like keep trying to get out of it.

And it was really interesting to me to see they basically have two different approaches. The one who's a little bit more worldly is kind of pushing him and like arguing his faith. And the other one is doing the thing that actually is really interesting, which is the sort of thing they tell you to do if you're caught by a predator, which is sort of make yourself small and like appease him. You're a big man. You're right. Like it was it was really interesting like and just really well done, I thought. Yes, I, yeah, I loved the way they portrayed both of those things because it to exactly what you're saying, though, too, both approaches are admirable and neither of them are,

she's not submitting to him because she actually agrees. She's just thinking, I've learned that like with men, like, I'll just agree and maybe this will make it go by faster. I just got to get out of the situation alive and like, this is what I need to do. Yeah. And it was interesting to see the way that like kind of a blend of those two approaches is like, yeah, no spoilers. Because actually I don't even think I could say something that is a spoiler based on my train of thought.

But like, it's interesting to see how those two come to play in the situation, you know. I agree. And also the way there's even a lot of shots, I was telling Tyler, I was like, I wanted to take pictures so bad. Because as I've talked about on this podcast, I like to just go. to like a showing that doesn't really even have many people, sit in the back, take notes on my like black background notes. And I've been wanting to take pictures because like I see TikTokers who like will show stuff in their review and I'm like, okay, I'll do it. Like the one like time I tried to do it a few months ago, like I had turned the flash off and it turned on. So I just don't trust

it and I'm too scared to take pictures now. But yeah, they're the cinematatial. There's a lot. There's so much cool cinematography that is putting like two parallel images in the center of a screen or like two and two of things. I like this is not a good sentence. But what I'm trying to get to is I think it was also focusing on how much we want it to just be black and white. Right. just like two choices you can make. There are only two choices. And I think the movie does a really good job of kind of being like, we don't even know that.

We don't know that's what's for sure either. Totally. Totally. Right. You're right. Because he has we have the belief and disbelief and he kind of draws them as like being total like opposites and like that there's no real shades of gray in between.

And I think that that's not untrue for certain segments of the population and religious believers, but also again, Sophie Thatcher has a line in there, which again is not a giveaway where she's like, there's like a whole spectrum of belief that you're sort of like just putting to the side, which is like, honestly, I thought was interesting because that's sort of where I fall, which is like, I don't know that like, you know, I don't know. Like, we don't necessarily need to get into all of that, but like that between everything being true and nothing being true and there's no in between, in between any of that is not true in my experience of like anything in life you know yes yes so then two things from

that that are really interesting one i talked with victor may mythos or mythos i think it's victor mathos yesterday about he just had or he has a thriller coming out called the silent watcher um it is creepy as fuck um if you like legal thrillers with like serial killer thriller all in one I think it comes out December 3rd. So I was talking to him and he, so like at the same time that I saw a heretic, I was reading his book. And I'll have to send you some of the quotes because they were, oh, it was so beautifully written the way he was exploring it. Actually in a very similar way, just not, it wasn't the whole bit, the whole book wasn't just centered around it. So I brought up to him how he has a character, the detective Lazarus, is, he grew up in very,

very, very high demand religion more than mine. Sorry, guys, if I keep hiccuping. I had an Ollie pop. I can't handle carbonation very well. So anyway, basically, I brought that up to him. I was like, was that always something. He was like, that was just something that my character was interested in. He was like, and I've always been interested in it. And apparently he was going to be a philosophy major. And then he realized, like, wait, like, how am I going to make money with this? So he switched to law. Yeah. So, but he said like back when he was like around that, he was interested in more religions. And there was like an atheist convention, like across the street from where he stayed. And he was like, well, I have to go to this. And so he like went and someone like greeted him there. And there were like people playing music up on a stage. And like everyone was like talking to each other. And then when everything was about to start, they all sat down. And then someone started reading like what they'd done the last month. And then. started reading from like the book of like some of their their their,

one of their favorite atheist authors. And he was like, they went to church. Totally. Totally. And I was like it is. It just is like it still even looks really, really similar. And I think that's why I have the longer I'm alive. Um, the thing that's ever spoke the most to me is something Rain Wilson talks about called Baha'i. And they're a group of people that believe, that like the savior story or kind of how we're saying like there's very similar stories and lots of religions is like a story that has been interpreted by different cultures, very similarly over and over and over again, that they just kind of generally believe

there's something to that, but the rules that also got made were very man, human driven. Totally. So I like that. Yeah, I feel very similarly where it's sort of like, this is like a weird angle to go about this. But like, and I, there's more to talk about in the movie. And like, honestly, you and I might have to have an offline conversation so we can like spoil it and talk about. Definitely. Like, there are certain things that like, for example, almost every culture has a flood story, like no in the arc.

Yes. And like I know that anthropologists are like, we think that means at some point there was a great flood. and like people came up with an explanation for it. Or like, and this is a strange one, but like there's the story, King Arthur and the roundtable and Guinevere and Lancelot, right? Like King Arthur's married to Guinevere, she falls in love with Lancelot. They have this tort affair goes to war. If you flip, there's also, so that's, I think, I want to say that's like the,

the England version of it. But then there's the Cornish version of it, which essentially is Tristan and he's old, which is the same story but told from it. different point of view. So again, it makes like literary and historical scholars think that actually this did happen, but it got interpreted differently in the mythology based on like which point of view you were coming from. And like that was what I was thinking watching that movie where he's pointing out that like there are so many historical similarities between the idea of this thing that it's like, well, maybe that doesn't mean that like the Bible is right. Are your followers going to like

come for me if I say that. Like maybe that doesn't be the Bible. I don't think so at this point. But like, but maybe that means that some there, this is all based on something that happened. It just may not have been like exactly the way that the Bible portrays it or Quran or, you know, that any one book is not necessarily white, but there is some sort of truth that they're getting at, you know? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's, there's a really cool scene about iteration. and yes, yes to everything you said, basically. It was really good. It was really good. And I definitely have some stuff to talk to you about afterwards.

But the other interesting thing, other interesting thing I did, I guess, the other interesting thing about my week was I'd seen a lot of people talking about conclave. And this is like the current Pope dies and the cardinals gather to like, pick the elect the next pope and i saw a couple of people on ticto who's like film opinions i trust saying like it is so entertaining the whole way through like you're gonna love it and like there's like a twist at the end and i was like okay all right like enough people have said this um my like bottom line is like it's a very good historical drama but like it is a historical drama like it is

not thrilling i i think maybe these people maybe just don't watch thriller thrillers. So don't go into it if you think it's thrilling. And there's not a twist at the end, which this is like something that even amongst thriller readers, I think sometimes people like disagree on. But a reveal is different than a twist to me. 100. Can we do an episode on that?

I would really love to talk about that. I actually like have an essay I want to write about that about the difference between twists and reveals and also like reader expectations around twists versus like and like marketing of it. Like that is a thing that drives me crazy when somebody is always like, this book is so twisty. And I'm like, okay, cool. So every reader is going to be looking for the twist.

You know, or like, like you're right, twist versus reveal. A true twist is like very different than just like a reveal, which is a culmination of all the things that you've like been looking for versus like, oh, the game's different. All of this is different, you know. Exactly. That was exactly what I told my husband because I went and saw it while he was gone. And I was like, and there's, I was saying to him, I was like, and it's not a twist at the end.

It's a reveal. And he was like, what's the difference? Like, just because he's not like a reader. And I'm like, the, I'm like, a twist means like almost all of the information or at least a large amount of the information that you had before. You now feel, feel or see completely differently. A reveal is like, oh, I wasn't expecting that. And it's new information and I didn't know until now, kind of. And that's what happens at the end of this movie.

It's a reveal. And so it's like, I was bored for sure. If you love his, but I also know it was beautifully shot and like fantastic acting. If you like historical fiction, historical drama, you will totally love it. But like, I think I had gotten myself convinced that like, people were like, it's so, it's just such an entertaining movie. And my notes at like 32 minutes, I was like, I think I'm bored. sad face. Totally fair.

That's what that is. But amidst all of this conversation, there's also, there's kind of a really interesting line. I'm looking through my notes in Conclave, where he basically, one of the characters basically says, may we never have a pope who doesn't have doubts? And it's like in relation to, because that's then how you have faith. So that kind of fits into all of all. of it too the whole belief versus disbelief even people who believe really the more they have they have faith and so it doesn't mean that every second they're even completely sure so it was interesting seeing two movies like that this week totally for sure something's in the air with faith

something's in the air with popes too wasn't there like a tv show with jude law that was like the sexy young pope i don't know that that was the exact title but in my heart that's what it was That was the jits out. I don't know. They're so hot right now. They're so in. Did you watch Fleabag? I loved Fleabag and I know exactly where you're going with it.

And the hot priest is so hot. The hot priest is so hot. I just watched the other day that was like somebody taping their friend watching the hot priest kneel scene for the first time. And the girl just like turns to the camera with like this feral look in her eye just like, And I was like, yeah, I know. I know, me too. Yeah.

And like whatever, whatever scene it is, I mean, we're ruining it, but this show's been out for a while. Whatever. He says something about like, do you think you actually want to kiss God, like, talking about how she's like partially attracted to him because of that? And he's like, do you think you actually, it's something like that? And like, when I say it, it sounds goofy. And then when, is it Jonathan Bailey?

I think it is, right? No, it's not Jonathan Bailey. I forget whose name. Oh, my gosh. Why can't I think. of his name he was the guy in andrew something or other andrew scott yes yeah okay there we go andrew scott uh when i say it it sounds weird when andrew scott says it i'm like do i want to kiss god i know or there's yeah there's that line where he's like fuck you calling me father like it doesn't

turn you on just to say it and every time i like i'm like i feel like exposed in my home watching it i'm like okay yes i feel the same one actually have you watched the baby girl trailer with Nicole Kidman the what the baby girl I can't believe you just said that I was about to bring that up I was about to tell you that I like walked in on that preview I don't get there on time because our AMC literally does 20 minutes of previews which is fine if you don't go to the movies much but it's like for me I'm just like I don't need it as much so I got I got there like 10 minutes late and I thought I had walked I knew this movie was coming out, but I thought I'd walked into like, I'm like, is there a porn theater in this AMC right now?

There's about to be on Christmas. Merry Christmas. I know. I wish we lived close to each other. We could go spend Christmas together with Nicole and Harrison. We definitely would have to. We definitely would have to. And like, yeah, that one line where he says, like, I think you like to be told what to do. And he kind of has this like upward inflection on it. And I like every time he says it, I'm like, Jesus Christ, like insane. I know. Like, I'm fascinated. I'm fascinated by what this movie is going to be like.

Me too. I'm really curious. The trailer is like a really well cut trailer. Like I'm hoping the movie is as like sleek and stylish and like like as good as the trailer is. Yeah. Yeah. I hope that my thing is like I, it's funny since people make the joke like, oh, I'm seeing it for the plot. But like I actually need plot, unfortunately. So that's like my main thing when I

see a trailer like that. I'm like, as long as there's still like a true plot happening, then I'll enjoy it. There. I've got Antonio Bandaris and Harris Dickinson in it. I don't need plot. I'm, I'm, I'm set. You're good. You're like, I'm like, what's this about Rome? Get out of here. You're getting your Rome into my Pedro Pascal. Like, my God, there's so many. Like there's. There's Pedro, Pascal. There's Paul Meskell. There's Denzel Washington. Oh, did you hear him, like, mad that they cut a scene of him kissing a guy?

I did hear that. And I'm like, release the director's cut, you cowards. Let's go. I know. One of my favorite creator. No, I think it was Blakely Thornton, went on a whole rant about it. Just look it up if you want to, if that seems like something you want to laugh at. Yeah, I do.

I was dying to his reaction. It was so funny. That's this weekend, right? Because Wicked and Gladiator, they tried to make, like, Glickettor. Yeah, totally. Wiccadiator. I don't know. Yeah.

Are you a musical theater, girly? Yes, but like a basic one. Like, I like musicals, but I don't have, like, a deep knowledge of it. I have seen Wicked on stage, which I loved. And I'm excited about it. You know, Cynthia Arrivo is amazing. And Jonathan Bailey and Ariana Grande, here's where I'm anxious about this film, Wicked.

Yeah. The fact that they're breaking it into two makes me worried it's going to be soggy. It makes me worried that we're sort of milking a phenomenon to make more money in a way that doesn't necessarily serve the story. And I know that, like, in a musical, there would be the, like, half-marked. break and it probably is like three and a half hours which is probably a little too long to really get away with but i'm also a little worried that we're going to go the opposite direction it's going to feel bloated you know what i mean yep so interesting that you say that i just listened to a podcast with

actually mackenzie green who has been on here previously as well she got to go to a screening and the full cast was there too i was like oh my god and this is like her favorite this is like her lane so like i was I was like so happy for her. Yeah, seriously. Her perspective, because someone she was talking with was like, why do, why are we splitting it in half? Her perspective, one, she said it's a two hour and 40 minute movie and like it felt like it was like 90 minutes for her.

Oh, okay. And she has seen it on stage, multiple times are on Broadway as well. And her main complaint is that she feels like, the second act is rushed in the musical. So for her, she liked the idea of kind of separating out their time at school as like the beginning and then everything else in the rest. So it's fascinating that you said that. I literally just heard her like explain this to someone.

So that's how some people feel. But she also then went into she was like, also you see the success of Barbie and what does everyone say? Like, I want a sequel. I want a sequel. She's like, so, I mean, they're planning to make a lot of money, too. It's, that's fair. Totally.

Totally. Of course they are. And that's why people tend to do, you know, like the Harry Potter, um, Deathly Hallows that became two movies where it was like, you know, this is more or less a cash trap. As much as I love Harry Potter and want to live in that world. Like, it's also like very financially savvy. Um, so I'm curious. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I definitely am going to see. Um, yeah. We'll see. One of my like, I considered a flaw because it's, silly, but like when people break into song, I just, I can't do it. And I'm so happy for everyone who loves it. Like, let me be very clear. There's no judgment. But I, I, it feels like secondhand embarrassment sometimes. Yeah. I do know what you mean about that. Like, I actually just this last

weekend, um, saw Amelia Perez on Netflix. Um, which is, yeah, it's a musical. It's like a, they call it like a Narcos Noir musical. So I was like, sure. Up. Up. my alley. Yeah. And it was good. And I liked it. And I had a lot of story notes that I won't share because I don't want to ruin anything. And I thought the cast did great. And some of the musical numbers hit better than others. Some of them it was sort of like, we're just singing to sing and really we're just talking, but we're singing. And I was just like, okay. You know, but then some of them were I was like, yes, this is great. This is electric. But yeah, it really, I'm with you. I'm, I like musicals. And I like a lot of the classics, but I don't know, my capacity for it is not as high as some other people

as big large. Yeah. Yeah. I, when Rob Hart was on the podcast for Assassin's Anonymous, he talked about how he, when he like teaches action or how to write action, he makes the comparison of that like every action scene needs to be a moment where like all of the emotion of the story has gotten so big that the action and the fighting is just like the emotion has just got raised so much. He compares it to musicals where like the emotion has gotten so big that then they're breaking into song. And I was like, did you just make me feel like I should watch more musicals? Totally. Like right? Like in the best musicals, it's like a way to access the interiority of the character or like, so you take Hamilton or something where it's like even in the songs, they're

telling you stuff about the character's personality like Hamilton and Angelica sing the fastest because they're the smartest and their brains move the fastest. And Aaron Burr sings in this really melodic sort of like beautiful voice, but that's also because he's sort of the like oily like, like, you know, getting next to you and trying to like get you to his side. Like they do all these smart things where they like mirror the character's interiority like within the way that they like even sing, which I think is so cool. I'm like, I'm such a nerd for stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. I. See, now you're making me want to watch Hamilton.

We'll see. I mean, I also am probably going to want to read every book you mentioned. Fair, fair. I know. Like, when are we going to consume all the media that we want to? Exactly. I know. I want to watch the Martha documentary, too, and I still just haven't even seen that yet.

Okay. I also watched that last weekend, and it is great. It's great. Martha is my icon now, and not because I think she's nice. I think she's a bitch and a weirdo, like, in the best way. And like also like I don't expect men to be nice, you know, who are successful. And yet somehow, but like she's, I was like, yes, I'm now a Martha Stan. Like, let's go.

Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. I've been seeing clips on TikTok and I'm like, she is that bitch. And I need to see this. There's so many epic moments where like my friend and I were watching it. And for like the first 30 second like for like the first half of the thing, every 30 seconds we,

be like, it was just so, I don't know, it was great. Yeah. I'm excited to watch it because that, I was telling Tyler this, like, the generation of women truly before me or even further before me, it's so, it's even more impressive to me those women who chose to like trailblaze in a certain direction because it was so much harder and like not expected. And not expect. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I'm really curious about your take when you watch it. I thought it was great. Yeah. I'm so excited. I've definitely seen the discourse of people who are like, she's blah, blah, blah.

And they're like, if you saw that his name is Steve Jobs, you guys see Steve Jobs and you're like, oh, and he created great things. And you're like, a woman does it. And they're like, she's kind of mean. So I'm excited to see someone who's like. And she does not come off. They're not whitewashing her, which I also appreciate. I feel like sometimes documentaries have a tendency to make them seem like, oh, and they're the most perfect angel who ever perfected, you know?

And like she's not, but like also she was a boss bitch who got shit done. Like, and that's just who she was. Yeah. Yes. From the get go. Yeah. I know. Yeah.

I know. Now she's like BFF's with Snoop. I love it. It's amazing. And they go into how that happened. And it's like, it's great. Yeah. Oh my gosh.

I have to watch it tonight. See? found more things that I need to watch. Yeah. Well, speaking of things like Martha being an anomaly, since women were not CEOs back then all the time, we're going to talk about some female rage thrillers. And you can use them for whatever they fit in your life right now. For some reason, hard to name some reason of like 72 million Americans or whatever, like

53% of white women. reason you're really angry right now, these might be cathartic. They can be very cathartic. And they're always cathartic too, you know? So I'm sure they'll be cathartic for years to come. Yeah, I'm sure. I don't think, yeah, it's not like if Kamlo was in office, we would be like, oh, it's all over. I know. True, true. But it would have felt better for me anyway. definitely fell better um well i'll start off with my first one because it kind of fits with the way that we're jumping off into it um this girl's a killer by emma c wells is just just like it's so good it's so so so so so so so good but it was also kind of cool because i had an interview scheduled with her for

the day after the election um and this book is a book about basically a a female Dexter who she hunts predators like specifically men who assault women, sexually assault women, children, all of that. So she hunts predators is the gist of this book. And Emma actually, I don't think she would care if I told this because we talked about it in episode two. She emailed me and she was like, I don't know. Like I might need to reschedule. And I was like, that's totally fine if you need to. And then like five minutes later, she was like, I just found out the books of USA Today bestseller. And she was like, it became a bestseller.

She said my book about a woman who fights predators became a bestseller on the day that we elected one. And she was like, so let's talk about it. And I was like, let's do it. Let's do it. I'm here for it. So it's fantastic. You've kind of all heard like the little gist of it. But here's the actual synopsis.

so I don't get into any spoiler territory. Meet Cordelia Black. Cordelia loves exactly three things. Her chosen family composed of her best friend, Diane, and her goddaughter, her hairdresser, worth every penny plus the tip, and killing bad men. By day, she's a successful pharmaceutical rep with a pristine reputation and a designer wardrobe. By night, she's calling South Louisiana of unscrupulous men, monsters who always seem to evade justice until they meet her.

It's a complicated yet fulfilling life that requires complete and total control at all times. But when the evening news starts throwing around the word serial killer, pressure heightens for her in the South. And it's only exacerbated when Diane starts dating a man, Cordelia isn't sure as a good person. Someone who might unravel everything Cordelia has worked for. I loved this work so much. Amazing. Her voice or tone, like both of them, it's just so fun. I haven't read it yet, but it's been on my radar for a while.

And I'm, I think it's going to be really cathartic to read. And I love to see that it's getting such great reception. I love that she's having success with it. Like, hell yeah. I know. It's really, it's just so good. And the way she like, because like I had a note in my,

because like I just take notes then for the interviews. At the beginning about how like she really did world building. in the sense that like to be just like Dexter I know a man but he has to have all these things in place that would make it possible for him to act and do the things he does and so that's what I thought was really cool with this one too is she has some really creative world building where like it was kind of reminded me how sometimes like vigilantes it does kind of feel like a comic book that has its own world essentially. I really liked that part too. That's awesome. That's really cool. Yeah, I love that. Like sort of like John Wick-esque where you're like, oh, it's like a world adjacent

to Earth, but it's like still got its own sort of like. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And the little mechanisms she has to pull it off. It's just, it's cool. It's also 436 pages and it did not feel like it to me. So if that intimidates anyone, like chapters are short, everything's snarky, snappy. It's great. love it love it yeah um okay my first pick is not actually a thriller but it's okay it's funny i like usually i've recommended this book before but i usually don't kind of lean in this direction but i actually got to review this book for miss magazine a couple years ago and i loved it then and i still love it now it's called in defense of witches the legacy of the witch hunts and why women are still on trial by mona way. And it is basically like a history of witches, basically kind of positing that like most people

who are like hunted in the witch trials and most women who get like labeled witches are like women who make like systems outside of the patriarchy and like how threatening that is. And like the way that like there's internal knowing of different things has been squashed. And she does this great. She kind of breaks it into like four different chapters. One, a life of one's own. Two, wanting sterility. So like women who are witches because they don't want to have children, the dizzy heights and turning the world upside down. And there's a forward by Carmen Maria Machado, who is like one of my all-time greats. I wrote stuff on almost every page of this book. Wow. It like pushed me to think harder and more strongly about so many different things.

And it's like for being a book that is like really kind of like theory, it reads like a novel. And there's so many interesting stories in here tied in about like, for example, like the way women were called witches when they were midwives because like knowledge that have been passed down for hundreds of years were like here are things you should do like wash your hands before you deliver a baby but that was before we had germ theory so like all of these women are like witches for knowing this and like actually they're doing it wrong and all this different stuff when they in fact weren't and like that's why the maternal rate was like better if you worked with a midwife than a doctor and like all this different stuff about the way that like

because a woman came up with it because there were these systems of like intergenerational knowledge like oh it's witchcraft and i was like read it and was just like on fire with rage and i it's a good book for this moment i would say yes it is that is one i went on an outlander kick a while ago when it came to netflix but it's reminding me of that too like the gist of that is like a woman from i don't know what her home year is like 1940s i think yeah it's right right after World War II, if I remember correctly, because I think her husband has been away at World War II and he's coming back. Yes. Yeah.

She basically ends up in the 1600s. Wow. I can't remember the 17. One of them guilty times. Is that? Yeah, one of those great times. She wins in Scotland and, boy, is it worth it to be there because of the name that I can't think of. But the man she falls in love with is fantastic.

Jamie? Jamie? Jamie? Sam Cuehler? Yes. Yeah. Well, it's Jamie. Oh, my God. Not a thriller, but if you really like adventure and a romance and a lot of dark drama. And like female driven sex scenes, which I think is really cool. There's like what I remember is there being like a big emphasis on like female pleasure. And like, yeah. Because he, in this case, he's a virgin when he marries her. And so you see. see a very different dynamic than we normally see.

Yeah. But she's a doctor in her 200 years in the present or in the future. And so everyone immediately assumed she's a witch in those times because she knows some of these things. So it is. It's just like, it's crazy. This is me. We think of how women used to like have to publish that stuff under like a man's name for

people to believe it, like was helpful. Like, who. Yeah, highly recommend. You'll come out of this book being like, oh my God, like just about everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, I am, I am totally going to, I think I might, I just discovered in case anyone else has Spotify, there is an extremely extensive catalog of audiobooks that are just free if you have Spotify premium. I feel like I might listen to this one on my dog walks on Spotify. You definitely should. It's good. And let me know what you think. I love this book. Yeah. I'm going to tell you the one that I started later. I started an audio book today, but I'm not trying to get us completely, completely off topic. So this was one that I've talked about before, the Lion Women of Tehran by Marjan Kamali. But I read it a few months before the election.

And it's kind of what reminded me of like, oh, be kidding. One day you. can have rights and then you just don't. So this one's historical fiction. In 1950s, Tehran, seven-year-old Ellie lives in grand comfort until the untimely death of her father, forcing Ellie and her mother to move to a tiny home downtown. Lonely and bearing the brunt of her mother's endless grievances, Ellie dreams of a friend to alleviate her isolation. Luckily, on the first day of school, she meets Homa, a kind, passionate girl with a brave and irrepressible spirit. Together, the two girls play games, learn to cook in the stone kitchen of Homa's warm home, wander through the colorful stalls of the Grand Bazaar, and share their ambitions for becoming lion women.

But their happiness is disrupted when Ellie and her mother are afforded the opportunity to return to their previous bourgeois life. Now a popular student at the best girls' school in Iran, Ellie's memories of Homa begin to fade. Years later, however, her sudden reappearance in Ellie's privileged world alters the course of both of their lives. Together, the two young women come of age and pursue their own goals for meaningful futures, but as the political turmoil and Iran builds to a breaking point, when earth-shattering betrayal will have enormous consequences. This one will just rip your heart out, but also restore your faith in friendship in

general and the homas of the world who have that irrepressible spirit. But it, like, it made me not embarrassed, but, like, a little bit to know that, like, I didn't actually really realize that, like, women had, like, similar rights to what we did in the 1950s. Like, they look that there are, like, you don't see the black and white pictures of them without, um, like, coverings and all of that. But, like, it all, like, they, they used to, like, get to have jobs. And, like, it wasn't like that before.

And it was just a religious regime that took. over and just like almost overnight like women who had been like working for their careers just lost their rights um immediately so that one's been there in the back of my mind since I read it like four months ago um but also it's a really it's a really cool story about friendship and about friendship between two very different girls slash women um and and And how, like, not everyone is going to be the political activist, but it doesn't make you less of a character, too, is a really cool thing that she kind of pulls off with both of them. That's excellent. Yeah.

I think you're right. I think that's, like, scarily more relevant now than ever. Because I think we like to think, like, oh, we've established certain things. But, like, that doesn't mean that they can't be rolled back. And I did know that about Iran because one of my good. friends is married to a man whose family moved from Iran after some of this. Yeah. And it is really crazy to imagine like overnight.

You could just be like, well, nope, guess not, you know. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Very handmade's tail adjacent. Oh, God. Unfortunately. I know.

And I'm like, I'm wearing red today. I shouldn't have done that. You are. At least I'm not wearing teeth. There we go. Yeah. I got to read the lion women of Tehran that I would be right at my alley. It is very good. Yeah. She's really cool. Okay. Yeah. My next pick is one people, many people will probably be familiar with. It is they never learn by Lane Fargo, which is also the story of much like this girl's a killer. It's the story of a woman Scarlett Clark who is a professor at a

university who every year she's a serial killer and every year she's like i get one i get one bad man to kill but then she kind of gets a little greedy and winds up killing more than one and people start to become aware of the fact that there might be a predator in their midst and it's also the story of a young woman in college named carly and sort of like what she's dealing with on the flip side as a student And it is a great female rage read. It could also be called Good for Her, you know. I was going to bring that up too. Yeah.

It's great. It's great. Uh-huh. Yeah, it really is. I was thinking about that when we were getting ready for, or when I was getting ready for this episode. I was like, it also is the good for her genre because bonus movie rec I'm going to throw in here. Blink twice is one of the best good. for her moments I've seen in a while in a movie.

So that was, that's my, my movie interjection for this genre, basically. But yeah, good for her ones are just, they're just, uh, they're gratifying to watch. They really are. And like right after the election and I haven't bought it yet. And honestly I should. But my friend, um, Hannah, who's a great writer to, she's not yet published, but will be one day, sent me this t-shirt that she owns that she was wearing. the first time I ever met her and I was like, you're one of my people. And it's a picture of Eileen Warnos, the female serial killer who targeted men. And it just says like, I'm with her.

And I'm like, you know what? I might have to start rocking that one. I need that shirt. I'll send it to you. I believe they have one in pink. Then I definitely need it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. She's pretty, I mean, she's iconic in her own way. she is she is not advocating but not not necessarily not understanding where she's coming from how about that right yeah yes definitely that one too um okay so my next one is their vicious games by joel wellington this one like has the female rage but also my like being a minority as well So I felt like this one just was fit in a good way too. So let me get here to.

There's like a lot of extra at the beginning of this synopsis. Okay. Adina Walker has known this. Oh, sorry. You must work twice as hard to get half as much. Adina Walker has known this the entire time she's been on scholarship at the prestigious Edgewater Academy, a school for the rich and mostly white upper class of New England. It's why she works so hard to be perfect.

and above reproach, no matter what, she must force beneath the surface. Even one slip can cost you everything. And it does. One fight, one moment of lost control, leaves Adina blacklisted from her top choice Ivy League College and any other college as well. Her only chance to regain the future she sacrificed everything for is the finish, a high-stakes contest sponsored by Edgewater's founding family, in which 12 young, ambitious women with exceptional promise, are selected. to compete in three mysterious events, the ride, the raid, and the royale. The winner will be granted entry into the fold of the Remington family, whose wealth and power can open any door. But when she arrives at the finish, Adina quickly gets the feeling that something isn't quite

right with both the Remington's and her competition, and soon it becomes clear that this larger than life prize can only come at an even greater cost, because the finish's stakes aren't just make or break their life and death. Oh, it's like ladies, a game. Yes. Yeah, it also reminds me, because I think I included it maybe,

I don't know if I did it in that list. It also reminds me of kind of like hunger games and salt burn. There are also some like very similar salt burn vibes in the like being the odd one out with like a very weird. weird rich family. Yeah, totally. Interesting. That sounds great. That sounds right up my alley. It's so good. This book and it's Y.A. I loved this book so much that it made me think like, oh, I'm really going to love more YA, but I didn't always end up loving it. But this book was so good that it made me think I needed more of it. Okay. All right. I got to check it out. I don't read as

much YA anymore either, not because I don't like it. I guess there's just, there's so many things to read all the time. And like sometimes, yes, I get the wonderful thing of being asked to read for blurbs, which I love, but also is like, okay, then it meets up my reading schedule too. And as you know, reading for your podcast. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What's going on my list. Yeah. My next one is Housewoman by Adora Noora. And this is, I'm going to be honest with you, it's a tough read in the sense that it goes some really dark, painful places. But it also is, so it's basically the story. I'll read the synopsis because I don't think I'm going to be able to um, um, um, synopsize it well. But this young woman who basically is like sent, she grows up in Lagos,

Nigeria and is basically sent for by like her family friends to like marry their son in Texas. And kind of with the premise of like, we're going to give you like the great American life that we've built if you're, if you are like the perfect Nigerian wife for our son. But what it essentially turns into is like she's basically like human trafficked kind of enslaved. And it goes some really dark places. And it's it's ultimately I thought it was a beautiful cathartic read. But it is, um, I do want to be up front about the like trigger warning type things. So, um, I'll just all read this really quickly. When Icafuma is put on a plane from Lagos to Texas, she anticipates her newly arranged All-American life, a handsome husband, a beautiful red brick mansion and Sugarland,

pizza parlors, and dance classes. Desperate to please, she'll happily cater to her family's needs. But Icafuma soon discovers what it actually means to live with her in-laws. Demands for a grandson grow urgent. Her every move comes under scrutiny, and the America, she imagined from Nigeria shimmers almost as distantly through the locked windows of the Sugarland House unattainable. As Icafuma finds there's no way out, her new husband, Nah, a corporate attorney, grapples with the influence of his parents against his own increasing affection for her, juggling their deeply traditional expectations with his own. As family secrets boiled to the surface, Icifuma must decide how to scrape herself out of an

impossibly sticky situation, a marriage succumbing to generational cycles of pain and silence. In the end, she may be carrying the greatest secret of all. An unforgettably delicious thriller, this is the story of a woman trapped in a dangerous web of conflicting desires melting in the Texas heat. It's a good one. It's a good one. It definitely sounds heavy, but it sounds good. It is. It really is.

And it also has a lot to say about sort of the perceived American dream and like the way that like that can be wielded as a weapon against people. And it's really good. I'm also intrigued by the cover. It's a great cover. Yeah. Stuff about sticky. So it's giving me honey. Honey and it's like wallpaper sort of.

Yeah. Yeah. Man. Well, it's time for me to become independently wealthy through Book Wilde so that I can create it all. Right? Isn't that the goal? Like, yeah.

Yeah. Just enough time to read forever. It is. Well, actually, I do have a segue because this cover. has some also beautiful yellow orange tones. Her name is Knight by Yasmin Ongo. I will never stop talking about this. And you guys will just have to always hear about it.

But this is one of my favorite spy. She's an assassin, so like assassin thriller series. I actually got her books are like right here. The whole trilogy right here. That's part of my like book birthday hall because I was like, I have to have these. So this has been one of my favorite series for a really long time. And this is the first book.

Solon from her Ghanaian village as a child, Nina Knight has plenty of motives to kill. Now an elite assassin for a powerful business, for a powerful business syndicate called the tribe, she gets plenty of chances. But while on assignment in Miami, Nina ends up saving a life, not taking one. She emerges from the experience a changed woman, finally, hopeful for a life beyond rage and revenge. Tasked with killing a man, she's come to respect, Nina struggles to reconcile her loyalty to the tribe with her new purpose. Meanwhile, she learns a new tribe council member is the man who raised her village, murdered her family, and sold her into

captivity. Nina can't resist the temptation of vengeance, and she doesn't want to. Before she can reclaim her life, she must leverage everything she has and everything she is to take him down and end the cycle of bloodshed for good. Actually, they're really worse. Some segues here, too. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, very, because also I should say, like, she's sexually trafficked. So another trigger warning there in this case. There are some really, really dark scenes, but just, like, really rich relationships and, like, nonstop action and revenge. So I love it. It sounds like it needs to be a TV show, to be honest with you. It does.

I know someone got the rights for it. Oh, good. But I don't know if anything's happened. I know. Yeah. Yeah. No. You never know.

It would be great. Yeah. Oh, that sounds like a good one. I need to read that. Yeah. It's on my list, too. They're so good. I'm kind of sad that they're done, but like I get it.

Yeah. Yeah. Can't write all the same thing forever for sure. Yeah. Um, okay, my next one is a slightly different direction. It is, it's a, it's thriller, um, but it's not quite as like some of mine, like some of the ones we've been talking about are kind of like kick ass thriller. This is more like working. You'll see. It's smile and look pretty by Amanda Pellegrino. Um, okay. Which is basically, and I'll read the back to you. It's about like four assistants who work in different kind of like, um, what do they call them? Passion industry. like publishing is one, film is another, which basically means the things that people are like really passionate about and want to work in, which often comes with like low paycheck and abusive behavior if it's not well regulated. So it's these four young women in New York pursuing their dreams

who basically are like treated like crap by their bosses and kind of come up with a way to sort of like reclaim their own power. So best friends Kate, Lauren, Olivia and Max are overworked and underpaid assistance to some of the most powerful people in the entertainment industries. Like the assistance who came before them, the women know they have to pay their dues and abide the demeaning tasks and verbal abuse from their bosses in order to climb the ladders to their dream jobs. But as they are passed over for promotions and the toxic office environments reach a breaking point, the women secretly start an anonymous blog detailing their experiences, which snowballs into hundreds of others coming forward with stories of their own. Confronted with newfound viral fame and the

possibilities of their identities being revealed, the assistants have to contend with the life-changing consequences of speaking out against those who refuse to share the power. And it's like, it feels me too. Exactly. Very me too, very of the moment, sort of like in the ways that like if there aren't systems to protect you, people will come up with systems themselves, which may be imperfect, but are kind of like the best, you know, like what are like the shitty do list and media, right?

Like where it was like, this isn't better that saying like people can't act like this. but it's at least something so that women know to like avoid these people. And it's kind of like a deep exploration of like, what about that? And like what if that's both a way to reclaim power but also, you know, could take you down with it. Right. Yeah. That kind of reminds me of a concept in narcissistic relationships called reactive abuse where like they treat you so poorly and keep pushing. certain buttons enough that like you kind of explode back and then they're like you're abusing me

and so it's this way for them to be like well now you're acting bad and you're like yeah but you got us here so it kind of reminds me of that concept totally totally like there's if there were better systems i wouldn't have to do this but this is where we're at exactly yeah yeah yeah yeah fascinating and i love the cover yeah it's great cover it's a great book really good one. Well, cover-wise, I have a great segue because on for people who aren't looking at the cover, this is like, this has like a blonde woman like putting on really pretty bright red lipstick. Hurt for me by Heather Levy has a very similar, very similar cover with red lipstick. And again, this one has some dark,

trigger warnings that I'll get to, it might be in the synopsis. Ray Dixon is lucky to be alive. 15 years ago, she survived being trafficked and abused and escaped her captors to reclaim her life. Now she's running a thriving business with her best friend and raising a teenage daughter on her own. Ray's finally in control, literally. As Mistress V, Ray is the one calling the shots catering to Oklahoma City's elite in her

private dungeon, which fronts is a spa. But when a client goes missing, Ray's world spins out of control. Detective Dayton Clearwater shows up at the spa, sparking panic when he asks questions that risk exposing Ray's true business. After several young women from her underground community disappear too, Ray spots a chillingly familiar pattern. Together, she and Detective Clearwater must find answers before more lives are destroyed, including those they love. Yes. This one is so good. It's such a good thriller.

It's self. And then it's also very sexy, but also very dark. Also deals with like sex trafficking and the horrors of that. Totally. And like you're so, and like all of those three things are like Heather's basically. Like she is such a smart trailer writer. She has such great pacing.

She writes so well about like human darkness. but then she also has this like really interesting like in this book and also walking through needles there's this sort of like BDSM thing that's explored that's like tied to the darkness but is itself not necessarily dark it can actually be very empowering and like the way that women sort of navigate that tension between like I'm being treated like a victim in this way and like I find my power in these other ways and it's so good and you're right it's so interesting because it is a book about sex trafficking and a lot of it and it's also sexy as fuck like not the sex trafficking itself but like the other things that she brings into it.

It's so good. Yep. Yeah. It's so good. I loved it so much. Yeah. I know. Me too.

Yeah. I'm so gladed for this violent heart. I just got my copy of it. Yes. I know. I haven't read it yet, but I haven't read it for it. And I can't wait to read it. I loved, oh, hurt for me so much that I did the, her book launch with her virtually.

and I was in Paris at the time. So I got up at 2 a.m. and was like, I'm awake. I can be here for this. That is so cool. It was awesome. Oh, my gosh. I love that.

Yeah. I know. She's just so cool. I love her. She's super cool. Yeah. Yeah. I conique.

Okay. My next one, oh, sorry, is also has some very sexy moments that. that also like given the subject matter should maybe not be sexy but like is it's a certain hunger by chelsea g summers um this book has made the book talk round so you might have seen it it came out i actually think it came out the same day as my first um uh lady upstairs it's about a woman who's a food critic dorothy daniels who is also a serial killer and she and a cannibal and so she will like murder a lover and like fry up his liver. But when I tell you, Kate, this is the most delectable food writing I've ever read and it's about cannibalism. It's so good. So I'm going to read the whole

synopsis just because it'll do a better job. But like food critic Dorothy Daniels loves what she does. Discerning meticulous and very, very smart. Dorothy's clear mastery of the culinary arts makes it likely that she could on any given night whip up a more inspired dish than any one of the chefs she writes about. Dorothy loves sex as much as she loves food, and while she has struggled to find a long-term partner that can keep up with her, she makes the best of her single life, frequently traveling from Manhattan to Italy for a taste of both. But there is something within Dorothy that's different from everyone else, and having suppressed it long enough, she starts to embrace what makes Dorothy uniquely terrifyingly herself. We're counting her life from a seemingly idyllic farm-to-table childhood, the heights of her career, to the moment she plunges an ice pick into a man's neck on Fire Island. shows us what happens when a woman finally embraces her superiority. A satire of early foodism, foodism, a critique of how gender is defined, and a showcase of

virtuoso storytelling. Chelsea G. Summers's A Certain Hunger introduces us to the food world's most charming psychopath and an exciting new voice in fiction. It's great. This is unique as fuck. I haven't even read it. It's unique as fuck. And the writing is spectacularly beautiful. Like it is, it's not a book that you necessarily speed through because she's got these like long, chewy descriptions of the beautiful. And it's food, like not just the men that she eats, but like, you know, the food that she's making and she's going to Italy and like sourcing these truffles. It's like you're in this,

like, fantasy fairy tale of murder and cannibalism. And it is like so unique and so well done and just like truly delicious, which is like a fucked up thing to call this book, but like that is what it is. I love that I love that you still feel that way about it. I really do. I came out of her being like, that's the best food writing. Like I like, my mouth was watering and I'm like, but she's talking about eating a dude and I'm still like, um, played it up for me, you know? Wow.

Yeah. I am notoriously a baby about cannibalism and I can't figure out why. Like, why is that what just like sends me over the gaggy edge? Oh, because it's like completely unnatural. Like I actually think your reaction is very much. You're right. no but it's right it was good that I'm not like excited about it I guess we're not like pizza or human flesh tonight who's to say um if you can get past that which maybe not but like it really is it's a

beautiful book I'm intrigued yeah yeah I read a book recently where cannibalism started to come into it and I was like man I'm going to have to stop but it was like still not the whole plot and I was like okay, I made it through it. It was watching it in a movie one time, admittedly, while I was peaking on an edible, like just fucked me up so much, watching someone like eating someone's thigh muscle. I was like, oh my God. I think books I can maybe handle it a little better. Yeah, I get that. Um, no, I think that's fair and normal and like the health of reaction, but it's, I love that book. Right. the cover is fascinating too i'm very intrigued by this yeah well my next one is just called lay your body down

is my transition yes by amy suitor-cler-clerclercler it has one of the best good for her moments at the end uh just one of my all-time favorite good for her moments but a A young woman returns to her rural Minnesota hometown where a radical evangelical pastor has poisoned everyone's minds and maybe covering up a murder. After Del Walker fled her small hometown and its cult-like church, she vowed to never return. The man she loved, Lars, left her to marry the local golden girl Eve, and their romance is now the focus of Eve's viral blog, espousing the pastor's conservative philosophy about women and marriage. but six years later, Lars is suddenly killed, and she's convinced it couldn't have been an accident. When Del returns to her hometown for the funeral, she discovers the now megachurch in the insidious patriarchal teachings of Pastor Rick Franklin has grown not only in size but an influence. Eve was clearly discontent in her marriage, despite the carefully constructed noble wife positivity of her blog posts.

And Del knows more than anyone just how far she will go to get what she wants. She was determined to cut through the church's lies and corruption to find out who killed Lars, even if it means confronting the religious trauma she spent years trying to bury. It's just so good. This is another one where like it's a really good thriller the way it plays out. It has a really great good for her moment, but also really looks at like practically or something. like the like literal things that happen to like girls who grow up in a church that's that conservative and like the creepiness that sometimes gets involved with pastors. So it just explores a lot of things like victim blaming to or victim shaming and being obsessed with shaming people.

Totally. Totally. And I know Amy has, you know, experience with, um, What was it? What did you call high demand religion? You know, and that like, I think part of that is like in a woven in the book. I mean, again, as somebody who didn't come from that background, it was so chilling to read about the like noble wives and like that, you know, and just so dystopian. And yet I know it's based in like very real stuff as we've seen. Like what a trad wives are now mainstream. And like, you know, there's a whole different. It's it's it was a really good, a really smart thriller with a lot to say. Yeah, the way that she depicted, I don't think this really is spoilery because I'm not even getting to super details, but the way that they will use, like, you need to confess your dirty thoughts or whatever, because like that's the only way for you to be made clean. You need to tell me about how much of a sinner you are. So prominent. And it reminded me from my childhood when there would be these like big retreats. There was always like crying. night where it's like everything's elevated to make you feel a certain way because music has that effect, whether it's religious music or not. But they like get you in a certain state of mind. And then I remember they would like, they would like call up girls that would be like if you're ready to be a born again virgin, please like come up here. And like when I think about that now, I'm like what the fuck? Like it would and so and this is like like a, like a,

I'm not going to say which one it is, but it's like a festival of like 18,000 people. Yeah. And they're like telling women to like admit that like you need to become a born again, virgin again. And they're like sobbing and walking up and like made to feel so bad about themselves. And I remember the first time that I like remembered back to that as an adult. It made me like want to apologize to the girls in our youth. Like it made me want to reach out and be like, I am so fucking sorry. that like we were going to something like that but i know all of them are they're in better places

too so they don't need me to apologize for it but this book reminded me of some of those things where it's like they get you all works up and make you feel so bad about yourself and then they have control totally and it's it's so like i can understand the function of confession and i don't mean that necessarily just tied to Catholicism, right? Like the idea of sort of saying, here are the things I feel bad or guilty about there is power and sort of exercising that shame. And then the way that people in power use that information is so beyond fucked. Like that is such like a vulnerability and trust. And as you say to like point out these women as if like, I'm sorry, I'm sure they weren't asking does any man up here want to become a born again?

I don't remember seeing any men go up. I think it's great. Yeah. And it just is it's like so crazy. And I had another thing I was going to say about that, but I'm not sure that I remember it very well. But just it makes you kind of ill, you know? Yeah, I don't know. And yeah. And we're talking like high schoolers or high schoolers. Like that just seems so, I don't know. Even now I'm like, that is just so wrong.

Here's what I was going to say. Here is my thought about this. it is so weird and pervy. The, like, religion fixation on, like, people's sexual status and all this stuff, it is so much purvier than somebody just, like, watching porn, you know what I mean? I think that when you're watching, like, secret lives of Mormon TikTok wives, I know I get that title wrong. I don't care.

Or, like, different things, like, even, you know, when they're making fun of stuff about, like, soaking or, like, you know, the practice was the things that people come up with as the work around to sex, like, sex that's, like, sex that's. just being like a very natural part of a healthy life. For some people, if you choose to be asexual or, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that, not choose to be asexual. If you are asexual, like, I'm not saying sex is the only way to have a healthy life. But like, it is a pretty normal healthy phenomenon.

Yeah. Then to be like, but like the like insistence on purity and like genital status is just to me beyond bizarre, you know? Yeah. Just like, okay, that's none of your business is a little curve. yeah yeah and it causes long-term problems yeah women who are told over and over and over again that they're dirty for like ever doing it and that you're going to be like a ruined prep gift for your husband like oh yeah it's just i'm sorry i don't i don't think i am a i don't think i'm a i don't think

i'm a sexual gift and i don't mean that like i'm putting myself down i you know what i like it just is no no no we're co-creating something i'm not given to you. I'm not, you know, it's so weird. It's so weird. Yeah, which was like totally in this noble wife stuff in this book too, where you're just like, I don't want to be that. Totally. I know. Reading that, I was like, no, thank you. Yeah. I know. Dude, see your lives Mormon wives, though. I think we had that conversation. It's just crazy because it was like seeing like 30 year olds who felt like 17 year olds or like something like that right like soft swinging like all the things you come up with to do because you like didn't get to explore sex because of the church and stuff and I'm like

just go fuck it's less weird like you know it's it's less weird yeah I saw tic-tac the other day I saw tic-tac the other day which was somebody like pretending to be god and he's like hmm soaking you got me you got me that's a loophole and it's just so funny because just ridiculous. Like, if you believe that God is that concerned about, like, sexual proclivities, like, yeah, this is not a workaround. This is just weirder sex you're having. No. Yeah. You're just like, yeah, I figured it out. Right. There's a lot of stuff in religion that's like that, too. The way that people like to get into a religion, to have weird rules, and then to find ways to skirt them again no offense to the Jewish faith but I saw someone with that perspective on how

like no one is allowed to see a Jewish woman's hair real hair except for her husband and maybe her family so that's why wig culture is huge with Jewish women and so they like have all these wigs because it's like the hair is meant to be private and then the solution is to just put fake hair on your head. Totally, totally, which is so interesting. And I think, to be fair, I think that's the more orthodox. I don't think that's like, you know, my friends who are Jewish, but like, but again, you're right, because it's like, but that's just hair. Like you, like you did, you came all, made like so many left turns. It's now a right turn. You know, like, it's the same thing. They're like, but it's not my real hair. It's like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. It is the more orthodox. I can't remember who the woman's

name is she had a Netflix show. Yes, I know what you're talking about. That's where I learned about it. Yeah. Yeah. They were, was it called unorthodox? I think it is.

I think it's called unorthodox. You're right. And, you know, I believe in people's right to choose, like, however they want to express themselves in religion, too. And, like, wearing the hijab is like, if you feel empowered to do that, I think that's great. It's just some of the weird. Yes.

And again, weird is like perhaps more of a judgmental term. But like the, like you said, the workarounds people come up with with the rules where you're sort of like, but aren't we just back to the same thing? We just, we just did it as like a longer route to the same thing, you know?

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Anyway, on that note, I know. I know. Seriously.

This is our like anti-religion episode or like maybe not anti-religion. but like a little questioning episode. Not really. Yeah. Okay. My next one is out by Natsuo Corino. And this is a book set in Tokyo.

And it is about these women who work the night shift at a factory. And one of them has an abusive husband and winds up killing him and kind of needing the help of the other women to get away with it. And then that kind of crime pulls them deeper into like the Tokyo underworld and has all these consequences that they didn't foresee. And I'll be honest with you. There are parts of this that were a tough read for me. There's some like sexual violence that I was sort of like, I kind of wish that didn't happen. But it is a really interesting look into also another culture and like sort of the way that like gender mores are being broken and like the sisterhood at the. the center was very compelling to me and the way that these women kind of come together to get rid

of this bad men and then like deal with it in their different ways. Yeah, this sounds good. Yeah, I mean, it is dark and good. For sure, dark, yes. I love this cover too. I'm distracted. It's a great cover. It's very like confronting, you know? Yes. She's like staring down the camera. Yeah. Or the reader. reader yeah totally adding this one to my list now too it almost had i think it's you were saying kind of like the sisterhood at the um center of it that's what pulls the line women of turan through too is like you're still feeling that part and yeah and it helps you get through the bleakness totally totally yeah which is how we want it all to be um so i

This is interesting. Okay. So the next one I'm going to talk about, I was about to say it doesn't come out until next year, but I still wanted to talk about it. But oddly, like, Goodreads simultaneously says first published September 8th, 2022, and also says expected April 22nd, 2025, which is what I thought. So maybe this book exists in the non-U.S. already, but I'm excited to read it. Oh, yeah, it says Danish author.

Okay. I'm excited to read it because I got it on that galley, and it definitely fits the vibe. It's 11%. I think I said that already. An inverse of the Handmaid's Tale asks, what if women took over the world? It is the new time.

I know. I was like, request. Yeah, totally. I kicked my little boy because he's actually being quiet and didn't know he was there. It is the new time, a time not so different from ours, except that the men are gone. All but 11% that is, the minimum required to avoid inbreeding. But they are safely underlocking key in spa centers for women's pleasure.

I'm so glad I talked about it, even though it's not out yet. Trained by Amazon's to fulfill all of their desires and procreation. A few women protest that the males should be treated better, more space, better food, but all agree that testosterone just cannot be allowed to go free. The old patriarchal cities are crumbling, becoming overgrown. Women don't blow things up. People now live in round houses, in round communities, but if you prefer the slum, that's okay too. Religion has survived, sort of. Women, priestesses speak in tongues inspired by snake venom as apples are passed around to the congregation. Four different lives intersect. Medea, a tiny long-haired witch and snake whisperer. Wicca, a young priestess who excelled at the self-pleasureing curriculum in school and has lost her pregnant lover.

Ava, a doctor working in the spa center, and silence who lives in an almost abandoned convent. Each has a secret and one is not what she seems. There's a lot going on. So you're saying this author has written a utopia. Basically. Yeah, 11%. You'll be to make Pedro Post now change his name to be of Halley. Right.

I love that. Oh, my God. It sounds so good. I was like, this, I'm going to enjoy it. But I also, okay, all our jokes aside too, I also am fascinated by the concept that it's going to have this question of like, but are we treating them poorly? So it's like it's still, I think it's still going to, I would assume, explore, what, equality? Like is equality possible?

That kind of stuff. And power imbalances and like, right. Like the question of like if women were in charge of every, if there was a matriarchal supremacy, like would it be? be a more fair society in general or just more fair to women. And like, I think that's an interesting question. But also like, fuck it, I want it either way. Exactly. Exactly. We've read, we've read and lived in the world of men. Let's just read the opposite. Done with that. That sounds amazing. I know from Marin O-U-T-O-T-O-T-A-U-G. It does say she's Danish. So okay. It probably can't. I'm sorry. Can you say that again? U-T-A-H-U-G. U-T-H-U-G.

Okay, perfect. Oh my gosh, you even said come for me Denmark at the beginning of the episode, didn't you? I did. Wow. Are we prophets? Are we like pathetic? I think so because this has been published in Denmark. I stand by it. I stand by it. Ready for. her a benevolent takeover. We are meant to read this. Yes, I think so. Oh my God, this looks great. I just pulled up the cover, too.

It looks amazing. I know. The cover also got me. Yeah. Me, too. I know. So good. Hey, hi.

I had just one more. I was going to pop in there. and it's a it's I don't normally do this but since we're talking female rage books I am going to plug my own the lady upstairs which was born out of my own particular thing I almost did that I almost said years I like yes to do it yeah and it's the story of for anyone who doesn't know it's the story of a woman named Joe who works at a business with her best friend and her sometime lover Robert well best friend Lou so sometimes love a rar. And they basically are, um, Robert Jackal, uh, they are, um, targeting bad rich men, training girls to seduce them and then blackmail them for their own personal financial gain or the gain of the people who hire them. And, um, it comes out of a lot of things, including my own, like, want to feel powerful. Like to me, oftentimes when I'm writing, like, it is a fun thought experiment for me to be like, what if I'm the thing?

that people should be afraid of. You know what I mean? Like you live your life as a woman frequently being like trying not to be scared, intimidated, hurt in all these different ways, even if they're minor. And it was really fun for me to be like, no, but like what if people should be scared, you know, of women?

Like, and there is like a long fear of women that goes back like many millennia. And it like comes out in all these misogynistic ways. And I feel like a lot of our lives were like, no, like women like that's misogynistic. and stuff. And I was like, this book was like, yeah, no, you should be fucking scared. And it was really great. It's why I loved it. I was thinking about it on my dog walk. I was like, I need to bring hers up. And then I did it. So I'm glad that you brought it up still. Thank you. I try not to stop. But you often, but you should. You should, though.

along those same lines the quote that I pulled from this girl's a killer is once upon a time I'd been a broken girl unable to protect herself from the scary things now I was the scary thing so you and emacy wells have that same wonderful writing energy I think so too and I think I think a lot of us who like write anti-heroens probably come to it from that place of like yeah I would rather wear the scary coat than like I'd rather be the predator than the prey well and it's like not to switch to a male version uh but breaking bad if anyone has seen it it's also the moment when she's like his wife is saying like you should be scared of like who's going to show up and it's the I am the one who knocks moment where he's like I'm what you're scared of it's always an

interesting moment in the anti-hero arc yeah yeah it's so funny I was just at um two weekends ago i was at um a conference called noir con which is a conference specifically for like writers and lovers of film noir and nor literature and different stuff and um which obviously is something i love um and they were talking about this famous crime that happened in palm springs the conference was in palm springs and they talked about it which palm springs if you're not familiar is like two and a half hours east of l.a it's into the desert and it was kind of like the playground of the rich for like Hollywood like it was where people would go and so it has this really interesting sort of like Hollywood past and there's this infamous crime of this actor Tom Neal who killed his wife and

he says it was in an argument he essentially gets like basically like I don't know if he's like fully acquitted or if he just got a slap on the wrist but it was one of those like every man gets to kill one wife sunny you know like that sort of thing that the guy who was presenting about this crime that happened that was an interesting crime talks about how right after he kills her he goes out to lunch and weirdly he picks this restaurant that's run by Buddhist monks and the monk one of the monks who's like serving him can see that he's upset about something and he said something about like there was some saying and I can't remember what it was but there's something about the tiger at the door and the actor the guy he just killed his wife said like I am the tiger like I think he said

Like, you don't need to be afraid of the tiger at the door. And he was like, I am the tiger. And it's this interesting thing because afterwards he sort of never really admits his guilt. He always says it was an accident. They had been fighting. Actually, she shot herself in the midst of the fight, blah, blah, blah. But it was a moment where you could clearly see that, like, he knew that he had done something. And, like, yeah.

Oh, boy. Yeah. What a thing to say about yourself. Seriously. And an upper, you know, here you go, just a happy little. It's an anecdote for me. Right. Well, I mean, it was a subject matter.

I think we had to give trigger warnings for like 50% of the book. Yeah. I'm okay with that, though. I mean, I think most people who read thrillers are, don't have tons of triggers that they're like having to look out for. Totally. That's part of why you come to the genre. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. well we've got books for y'all we've got movies tv shows i think we i think we gave a little bit of everything hot takes on religion hot takes on religion what more do you guys