Bookwild - Fighting Book Bans and Censorship in Louisiana: Amanda Jones' That Librarian

Episode Date: January 6, 2026

This week, I talk with Amanda Jones, a dedicated small-town Louisiana librarian, about the challenges she faces in her fight against book banning and censorship. She discusses her passion for literature, the importance of representation in books, the defamatory posts about her that spread like wildfire, and the impact of misinformation on community perceptions. Amanda has always championed the importance of diverse literature and the role of libraries as safe spaces for all children, particularly those from marginalized communities.Read all about Amanda's journey in her book That Librarian: The Fight Against Book Banning in America Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with Amanda Jones, who is a librarian and the author of that librarian, the fight against book banning in America. If you hadn't heard her story, I hadn't either until I listened to her audiobook. And she is basically a bookish hero and an advocate for the marginalized people and subjects that a lot of people don't want in libraries anymore. Here is the official synopsis. Part memoir, part manifesto, the inspiring story of a Louisiana librarian advocating for inclusivity on the front lines of our vicious culture wars. One of the things small town librarian Amanda Jones values most about books is how they can affirm a young person's sense of self. So in 2022, when she caught wind of a local public hearing that would discuss book content,

she knew what was at stake. Schools and libraries nationwide have been bombarded by demands for books with LGBTQ plus references, discussions of racism, and more to be purged from the shelves. Amanda would be damned if her community were to ban stories representing minority groups. She spoke out that night at the meeting. Days later, she woke up to a nightmare that is still ongoing. Amanda Jones has been called a groomer, a pito, a porn pusher. She has faced death threats and attacks from strangers and friends alike. Her decision to support a collection of books with diverse perspectives made her a target for extremists using book banning campaigns funded by dark money organizations and advanced by hard right politicians and a crusade to make America

more white, straight, and Christian. But Amanda Jones wouldn't give up without a fight. She sued her harassers for defamation and urged others to join her in the resistance. Mapping the book banning crisis occurring all across the nation, that librarian draws the battle lines in the war against equity and inclusion, calling book lovers everywhere to rise in defense of our readers. Her story is harrowing for sure. The town that she grew up in and had served as an educator for two decades, people in that town were turning on her because of this false information that was being spread about her. On the flip side, her commitment to protecting the books in the library and fighting against book bands is so commendable and so inspiring. I respect her so much

for not backing down, and I felt very lucky to get to talk to her. We discussed why it is so important to have diverse representation in books, which you know is something that I've been passionate about for years. We talk about this new, like I would call it an epidemic of thinking that empathy can be toxic. And we talk about how scary it was for her to be getting these death threats, Specifically, some saying that they were going to come to where she worked with children with a gun. You heard me talk about how much I hate book bans and how concerned I am that were to this place in society already. But this conversation with Amanda, while parts of it did infuriate me, also gave me a lot of hope and really reminded me that we have to find each other. The good people have to find each other right now because we've got to find a way to hold on to hope still.

That being said, let's hear from Amanda. I am here with Amanda Jones, who is that librarian, which is actually her, the title of her book, too. But I am so excited to talk to you, the book banning, the censorship, it's gotten out of control. And your book was just like giving me hope that we still have people out there who want access to books. So thanks so much for fighting for it and for coming on. Well, thanks for having me. It's not something I like talking about. Right. You know, I wish we didn't have to deal with it. But I am always up for trying to explain

what's happening to people and maybe hopefully help other people get informed so that we can come out of this in the next few, hopefully the next few years. Yes. Yes, totally. Well, I kind of wanted to start, like, way at the beginning. I remember hearing in your, I listened to your book that, Like, you were kind of always interested in being in a librarian or, like, even your undergrad, you were trying to take classes for it. So can you talk about, like, what made you want to be a librarian and your journey toward that? So I always, like, joke and say I was raised on the street, like Sesame Street and Reading Rainbow. And Mr. Rogers were huge parts of my life growing up. And, you know, they always talked about books, especially Lavar Burton and Reading Rainbow.

and I so I've always been you know interested in reading and I my mom's a retired kindergarten teacher so I she surrounded us with books and she would load up the station wagon and the minivan whatever we had at the time and get friends and we should take us to the library like public library every single week we had a very rich um set of books at home and so I just always lived to read and when I got older um my 10 taste were different, but I had a, I was lucky enough to have a wonderful high school librarian who also connected me to great books. And then when I was in college, I was, I went to be an elementary school teacher. And while I was in elementary education, the first three Harry Potter books came

out. And I remember just seeing on the Rosie O'Donnell show, seeing her say, oh, there's these new books that are out. And I read the first three zip through them in a few days. And I thought, But, you know, this is great. This is what the publishing world needs for kids lit. And it just reignited that passion I had a reading. Again, different thoughts on the author now, you know, at the time. I think that's like that for a lot of us. Yeah.

And I will say the works still, the books I still think are magical. And even if the author's not. But it reignited that passion that I had growing up for reading. And I just remember in my 20s as an undergrad, I didn't know what master's degrees. were I didn't because I was the first person in my family to get one and I took special permission to take the library science graduate courses as an undergrad because I just I knew like I just knew I want to be a librarian one day and how do I get there and so I did what I had to do and I I was fortunate I was hired at the same middle school that is that I attended as a child and

it's a mile from my home and I've been there for 25 years. years so I really looked out yeah yeah it's it's so like knowing because you I think it you said you lived in the house like next door to your childhood home and okay and then you're like getting to like teach and be a librarian in that community that it is it's really powerful you were able to do that all kind of in that same community and it's a very small community too by the way Like it's, we're very, I mean, considering, we have two red lights and we're not even an incorporated town. And so it's a very small community. So where I work, I'm the only middle school librarian.

Like every kid of my community will have me, whether that's a good or a bad thing considering what camp you're in. But I will have every kid in my community. And what's really cool now after 25 years is that I have a lot of grant students. So kids that are the children of kids that I taught. So it's, and my husband went to my school as a child and my child went there. She's graduated now. And it's just a wonderful place to live and work for the most part. Yes. Yeah. It is important to focus on like what you're saying. Like for the most part, there's like a lot of good to all of that. And what kind of kickstarted this journey that now is in your book as well.

I like kept getting mad just listening to it, of course, but it's like for people don't know, you essentially just talked about book banning in general and like relocating books to different sections in the library and how that's like something that you can always do. You can always kind of talk to bring that up. But you basically talked about it at a library board meeting and like lies from like just grew from that. So can you kind of talk about like what you were wanting to just say at this board meeting and then we can kind of get into the negativity that happened after?

Yeah, they, you know, I've been a library cardholder since I was five years old in my local community. I'm 47 now. So a very long time. So like I am a community member. I've lived here my whole life. And so I went to my public library. I'm a school librarian, but I went to my public library to defend policy.

and procedures that we already had in place. Because the general public, they don't realize that all libraries have collection development policies and plans for if a community member doesn't like a book, there's a reconsideration form you can fill out. And I think that's very important. That's every community member's right. So what I went to do, we saw in our community a local, an outside, not local, an outside extremist group started posting about our library.

People that didn't live and work in our community started posting, pages of books out of context and saying that we had inappropriate books in the library. So what I hope to achieve by attending the very first library board meeting I went to was to say, look, that's not happening. First of all, there's no inappropriate books in children's sections of our library. But there, we have policies and procedures. So if you don't like it, hey, fill out a form and just follow the procedure. And let's go from there. We don't need to have this big hubbub about it. But also, I did talk about how censorship is wrong, in my opinion. and what I believe it goes against the Constitution, you know, and all the amendments and things that we, the history of our country.

And that's all I talked about was policies and procedures. And in censorship, I didn't, I never spoke about any particular book or anything like that. And then, but, you know, the extremist group didn't like that I had gotten, they thought I was going to be a walk in the park. They were going to come in and dictate what we were going to do. And they were going to, you know, cost us funding like they had done to other. area library, you know, library systems or across Louisiana. And I was like, no, you're not coming into my community. So they didn't like that.

So someone from that organization and another man who he's friends with chose to create horrible false, provably false memes about me and spread them all around my community. And what happened was that people I've known my whole life just suddenly started believing what they saw on the internet from two men that I had never spoken to, still haven't ever spoken to, don't know them, I never interacted with them in any way. But people that have known my whole life decided to pile on and believe with these men were saying about me. It didn't matter that I had worked in my community at the time, 22 years, a stellar record as an educator. I wore awards and grants for my school. None of that matter. All that matter

was what two strangers said about me on the internet. And that's kind of still three and a half years later, that's kind of still how I am and what's happened in this community. Oh my gosh. that's what it was making me think about too as i was reading it like obviously no one should be getting death threats in any like way shape or form um but we do know that happens sometimes from like keyboard warriors from bots at this point like who even knows what it's coming from but like at the beginning of your story when you're like it was the people you knew which is like almost worse i would feel like because you're having to like see these people in person who are just believing all of this stuff versus like just like not that I'm excusing a typical

internet troll but it's so much different than just someone who you like don't even know it was wild to me and it still wild to me and it still happens to this day in fact I woke up this morning to a comment from a former student and this is someone that and he's an adult now he's almost 30 and I'm thinking you are one of my favorites and we we had a great teacher-student relationship and like I don't and I'm like what are you talking about it just it shows it shows the how horrible um of a hold social media can have one and propaganda and lies can have on people that can make you can have an experience with someone and know someone their whole life and then just it just can change or maybe that's human nature maybe we're just fickle people I don't know I yeah I haven't been able

to wrap my brain around all this it's been four years still there's so much yeah cognitive dissonance to all of it is what's very confusing for me as well. And you've, you kind of pointed out too, like, and where actually you did now, like the First Amendment rights, freedom of speech is one that like a lot, I'm saying this administration or in general Christian nationalists is kind of the big part where like in a lot of cases they will defend themselves and people who agree with them and are so hardcore for freedom of speech and then at the same time are some of the loudest people trying to get books banned it doesn't make any sense to me i've been trying to like i've had a few

moments like you're talking about too where i'm like i've known you for a really long time and did not expect you to believe or act like this and now you're acting like this and so it is it's so confusing because it just doesn't even make any sense it doesn't and i you know you said you touched on Christian nationalism. And so it is. That's what it is. And that's what we're saying, especially in my community. And these people, I say these people, this is my neighbors and my friends and former friends, some of them, you know, like they're all for the First Amendment for their rights to speak. But they want to push their thoughts and their ideologies on other people. and so my community is a very Christian majority community and I was raised I'm still a Christian

but I don't ever want to push my beliefs on anyone else but it's it's like you know you will believe me I reminded there's a movie with Mandy Moore I wish I could remember she's like in the power of the Christ will listen to the power of Christ and she throws a Bible out of yes that is so not Christ like and so not Christ's like and so I, I just, I'm very angry at people who have taken over my religion and pushed it to be harmful to other people and to, to ostracize in other, other people in their communities. But, you know, it's First Amendment for, for me, but not the, is what I call it. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to ask about that because I, like, I grew up, I'm like a pastor's kid,

essentially. And I kind of deconstructed and moved away from Christianity for a really long time. And then I felt even more kind of convicted in that recently. And then I had like this year has kind of been this almost like second deconstruction where I'm like learning the wide variety of interpretation that exists in Christianity. And I don't know what I think about the afterlife at this point. But when I just focus on what Jesus says, I'm pretty on board with the things Jesus said. So can you got to talk about how, like, in some ways, I'm, I think from the vibe I was getting, like, the way you practice your Christianity is about inclusiveness. Yeah. I mean, and that's the way my community taught me to be. Right. I mean, I'm a product of

my community, which is so wild to me that now they would turn and say, I'm woke for the beliefs, because I'm like, I have the beliefs that you raised me on. Right. Um, which. is just this disconnect. I was raised. If we weren't at the library, we were at church. And I was raised Southern Baptist. And I have a lot of thoughts on the current Southern Baptist Convention. But at the heart of it, we went to Bible school and Sunday school. We were raised. The most important lessons was that love thy neighbor as thyself and be a good Samaritan. And those and championing the underdog and those were the lessons like i was it was drilled into my head that we must love one another and that jesus was um you know a teacher of the sick and the week and the

i mean he he hung out with prostitutes you know i learned that as a kid i learned i mean we learned i learned i learned i learned four years old and yeah and jezebels yeah jesabels and i was actually jezebel for a Halloween when i was little so that's amazing you know it's um Um, I, I, what happened to these people, they will tell you that I'm now woke, but I will say that I've always been awake and that they're asleep. I don't know. Yes. Like these lessons that they taught me, I'm thankful for them. I just wonder why they don't practice what they preach. Right. Yeah. And for anyone, I've been talking about Christian nationalism a decent amount this year, but for anyone who maybe is like just landing on this, like a big part of that. Like, like, a big part of that. Like, like, you've discussed like this version of Christianity, I kind of say with quotation marks that has developed is like very much about restricting the rights of certain people. And like you're saying, like really pushing your belief system on other people. So that's kind of like the delineation

we're basically making is like there's this version that's like very misogynistic, very xenophobic, like does not want to take care of the stranger versus like there are some people who really follow like the red words of the Bible or or what Jesus was saying and what he did it's um one of the in my community people would say one of the um the best if you can be a best Christian um in our community is is uh one of our state sinners and she is constantly posting you know Jesus is king and Lord of Lords and then the next post and we will rid everyone of the and then slur slur like what are you talking about like you can't post god is love and in the next post post something lies i don't right there's like how did i don't and then i wonder okay is there

really a disconnect is she really that or is she just that hateful or is she getting paid as a politician to be this way you know and so but either way choosing to post things like that yeah and we're all human I mean, I say, let's be kind, and I've posted ugly things sometimes like, you know, I don't agree with this, this woman's foolish. But I'll admit, that's not what I'm being Christ-like. And so I, there's a lot of- He did flip tables when people were being manipulated and treated poorly. And I think even, no matter what, if you're a Christian or not a Christian, at the heart of it,

we're all humans and we should all love one another, regardless of religion, regardless of socioeconomic status. race and gender and we should all love one another that doesn't mean we have to like each other but we should all be respectful and kind and cognizant that it takes all sorts of people to make the world go around because otherwise what a boring world we would live in totally yeah the you talk about the importance of like including queer stories and uh that's something they get really hung up on wanting to remove um and it it's it's just so harmful because it's that is people's lives and they're not seeing themselves represented and you had a really powerful story where you said like a student came up to you and even said like my mom told me that like you're a safe person can you

I'm like about to start crying telling the story we're two cries me too um and so then you were able to help her like read stuff or I don't know what gender it was actually um find stuff to read that made that person feel seen so can you can you like talk about like why that why books are so important for that reason yeah um i think um something that really stood out to me was a study by the human rights coalition and i talk about it all the time about how um it reported in the study that so many kids so many kids students from the LGBTQ plus community feel so unsafe at school and so just scared but nine out of 10 in that same study said that they feel safest in the school library yeah and to me that's a huge responsibility

because I do teach every kid in the community or I will if they you come through our school and I want every kid to feel loved and seen and heard and we have more than white straight to shindered kids at our school, regardless of what anyone wants to say. Yeah. And we have kids that have two moms and kids that have two dads or, you know, whatever. They come from different backgrounds. And just like we have kids from all races and every one of those kids deserves to see their stories reflected on the shelves.

And so to remove a book because it has two moms or because the author is queer, what is that saying to those kids that either are from the community themselves? or if their families are. It tells them that they don't deserve a place in our community. And I will not have any kid in our community feel that they do not belong or that someone in their family doesn't belong. And people make fun of me for saying that. And I don't care if they make fun of me for saying that.

There was, I'm in a documentary. I would prefer that be the thing people, the only thing people could find to make fun of me for. And that's all they can at this point, you know. Yeah. I'm in a documentary and there's a clip that's been like rotating around my community of a scene for me from the documentary crying and saying I don't want any of my LGBTQ students to feel ostracized or feel they have to move from our community and some people were making fun of me like oh that's not a thing that's happening I had multiple former students message me saying it's me and you protected me yeah so I sorry I know I'm crying you are okay so like I know I don't care what other people think of me I know that there are kids that have felt safe and that have not been made like I know in my heart that I'm doing the right thing because I have these kids that are not kids anymore they're in their 30s yeah not being not being contacted by minors right right you know that I that tell me that thank you for standing up for me yeah Yeah, it's so important. There's something that I always think of, like the quote that says, like, be who you needed when you were younger. And I feel like that kind of fits under all of this is like everyone deserves that safe space. I have a friend who he was on the podcast actually here recently too. And he talked about he grew up, I think in Alabama is what he said, somewhere in the South and he's queer. And he felt the exact same way that like the last. library was the place that he felt the safest he could just spend time there like the librarians would

help him find stuff and i i stories in general are so important to me obviously that's why i even have a whole podcast about it because it's even like my experience i i grew up like very much in the bubble that was like we're in the world but not of the world so like i did not get to consume anything secular um until i was basically like 18 um um And so once I did, I was like, oh my gosh, like I saw, I actually understood why they wanted to keep so much from me because it's easier to control someone with limited knowledge or doesn't know about a lot of stuff. And then hearing other stories that I would connect with, I'd be like, oh, this helps me understand myself as well. So I just, books are, they're just so important for so many different reasons, like the empathy you get from like being in a character's head for such an extent. extended period of time like fiction can be just as much empathy building as nonfiction can be it's

just it's so important to have those spaces and I think part of being a good librarian because I always want to be the best librarian I can be is listening to you your students or your patrons whether you know if you're a public librarian you listen to your patrons and and my students were telling me Ms. Jones, I want to see more of this and I want to see more more of that. And that doesn't mean that I am getting books that are not age irrelevant. All the books in my school library are professionally reviewed as age relevant, age appropriate for my students. But there are topics that they want to learn more about.

And I remember even several years back, some of my students that were African-Americans, American, they said, Ms. Jones, we're glad that you have, we see that you have diverse books in here. These kids actually said this. However, we need to tell you that you're doing something wrong. I was like, what am I doing wrong? I was like, tell me, tell me. They said it's all, all the books that look with characters that look like us are about the civil rights period or slavery. Yep. I was like, oh. So I listened because I think that's what a good librarian or a good educator does. You listen. so I focused on black joy and not even also books of white but books as the characters just happen to be black just existing it was just existing and to me that's important and and when you when you listen you learn you do better and and so but there are people that don't like that I have books with black characters and so I'm not going to change that because something you're a fool some homophobic or racist person that is not even a parent of a child in my school you don't let them

dictate you know what other kids how they feel in my library yeah yeah I think that's that story is so important it was because it was making me think too how uh I didn't know I wasn't aware growing up that there are so many people's experiences I wasn't reading about and I wasn't I really wasn't as aware as I am now until kind of like the last two or three years I've just been reading more experiences and what matters to me so much with people is ignorance in general I think it's so important to realize ignorance in general is not malicious um and it for me what it mattered what in conversations I have now with people what matters is like when you are confronted with new information how do you handle it um and I think that's what's really powerful

about your story I thought it was really powerful that you shared as well just like all of these things that you weren't aware of but once you became aware of it you're like oh okay now I can now I can notice like oh I don't have stories of like black children just existing in the world essentially And I think it's, that's what becomes so important is like when you're given new information, even if it makes you a little bit uncomfortable, what do you do once you have it? And I think that's part of the problem nowadays is that people don't want to admit that they don't know things. They don't want to admit when they're wrong. And it's, you get stuck in this, you think life is one way.

And then you learn that things are, more nuanced or different than you originally thought and you can do you can go either way you can choose to be a better person and learn or you can choose to bury your head in the sand and as someone who has taught thousands of children and hopefully will teach thousands of more but even more importantly to me i have i have my own child and i want her right i want to set a good example for her and i want her to go out into the world and learn you know build a point on the things that I've learned and even learn even more become even you know become a better person than me you know so that's that's what I I hope for I it's sad to me that people stick their heads

in the sand because my life is only has only increased tenfold thousand you know thousands upon thousands of percent better from knowing other people and knowing about other people and their experiences And I still, I will go back in credit to this day, Dr. Charlotte McDonald, my high school librarian, who first put, I know why the Caged Bird sings into my hands. And she first put Angela's ashes into my hands. And she put the bone setter. I think it was either the bone setter's daughter or Joy Luck Club in my hands. And I realized, oh, there's so much more out there, these experience that I don't know about. Yeah.

the other thing i was kind of i was talking to my husband about this this year book um and book banning in general and i was like there's even i have like some version of a hot take that i haven't totally settled on but i was like in the arguments for reading diversely and you touch on this too some white people white straight people especially think they're oppressed when inclusivity is encouraged which just like again that's cognitive dissonance for me like those two things are not related but even in this conversation about reading more diversely selfishly it's more interesting to be like reading books in different places and in different cultures and hearing different perspectives like even if you're not doing it in the way that some

people would call you woke which like not an insult really um even if you're not doing it for that reason even just selfishly it can be more fun to be reading a variety of experiences And that's what I feel. I just, I feel so sorry for people who close their minds off. And, you know, and I feel sorry for the kids. But it also goes, it works two ways, though, because I will also recognize that that's those parents' choice to raise their kids that way. Right.

And I feel sorry for kids that have to grow up that way. But I don't want anybody telling my kid how to read or what to read. or who to be. But I think what gets lost is that when you're censoring books, you're not just saying, I don't want my own kid to read this. You're also saying, and then no one else's kids should be able to read this as well. And that's where I draw the line because you absolutely have the right to tell your own child. And look, you your kid, you can pay for the therapy for that kid later down the road.

And when they estranged themselves from you, because that's your own you. but nobody you can't you can't tell me and I'm not going to tell other people just like I think diverse we should all have diverse literature in the library but I'm not going to tell a parent your kid has to read that diverse literature they can read whatever they want yeah that's what sticks out to me so much with with a lot of control but also with like censorship and book banning is exactly what you're saying it's like this can exist here and you don't have to consume it like that's fine like don't do it it's this kind of the same way i'm like you hear people sometimes say like you don't like gay marriage you don't have to get gay married like that's

kind of how it pretty much goes but i also thought the point that you brought up that like some of these parents who are the most worried about what happens to exist in the library are parents of children who have like they are able to connect to the internet what's what's ironic about that is that i pointed that out yeah i actually did an entire lesson school-wide lesson at my school on internet safety and do you know i was attacked for that as well oh my gosh by the same people they tried to get me fired legit tried the same exact people who I, you know, who didn't like me talking about freedom to read, when I said we need to, I did a whole lesson on, hey, this is what these kids are saying that they're seeing on the internet.

We need to be concerned. And then I taught the kids about how to block. I'm like, block and report to your parents and tell a trusted adult. They didn't like that either. So I'm thinking, it's not about protecting the children because if you're, if your cause, if you were really worried about connecting with protecting children, you would join me. on this and agree with me on this internet issue. Yes.

They just want to gripe about everything. And it's not about protecting children. And that right there showed me that it's more about control. And it's not about real actual protecting children. And especially because also in addition to not wanting me to teach internet safety, the way they go about their opposition. to what I believe in is that they've tried to destroy me.

They try to destroy me and they scream at me in public, tell me I'm going to hell. My favorite was God's going to wrap a millstone around my neck and drown me in the pits of hell. They quit it about verse. Multiple times that has happened to me. It's kind of like they got together and decided we're going to use this one verse

to really be offensive to everyone. But they lie about me. And what kind of example is that to attack your child's teacher or librarian? Exactly. what is what is happening like that's not protecting children either so I those people have no I don't I don't I don't I don't longer think about them anymore and I just focus on the good and I they're all that's just noise in the background that says a lot about them that says nothing about me right so let them gripe in the background let them gripe on Facebook let them call me what they want to call me I know what I'm about and it took me three and a half years to get to that point, but I know what I'm about now. I mean, sometimes it takes longer than that.

So that's pretty quick. I'm proud. I'm proud of, I am the person I was raised to be. I'm proud of who I am. And no one is ever going to take, let me dull my sparkle again. I wrote about that in the book. A kid gave me. I used to tell that to a kid all the time. Don't let anybody dull your sparkle because she was being bullied.

And as an adult, she came back and she gave me a sign that says, don't. And so I have it in my library, and she reminded me, you don't let anybody do your sparkle, Ms. Jones. And so I no longer allow that to happen anymore. Yeah. Yes. And again, like, it's worth talking about these people, but I also am trying to not give them the biggest attention in what we're talking about. But what you're talking about with them lying about you, too, there was there was just so much online hate. People were saying you were a groomer.

it's important to notice that the or note again that the speech you gave had no books listed in general like it was not it that's all you know there were no books that were mentioned and it like turned into this thing of them being like you're a groomer um you're teaching children like i think six year olds or 11 year olds about anal sex like yes not what was happening yeah and go ahead Well, I was going to say one man said that I give pornography and erotica to six-year-olds and eight-year-olds. And then he produced a book called Let's Talk About it that was not mentioned at the meeting. I didn't even, I had never even heard of it. Nobody talked about the meeting.

I didn't talk about it. And then he started putting pictures of it saying she wants to show kids. I'm like, where did that even come from? And then another man posted a picture of my face and said, I advocate the teaching of anal sex to 11-year-old. which is not anything that had anything to do with my speech and nothing I would ever do and I I will say that since this has happened that man has issued a public apology to me oh he was forced to I mean I sued the two men the two men that targeted harass me I sued them for defamation and I am still in a lawsuit with one of them but one of them did come to his senses he came to his

senses and he said you know he he offered to settle with me and um i was not going to take any money and all i i said yes i will settle with you even though he what he did was horrific to me and caused me great physical and mental pain right that you know his apology will never wipe away no but he did publicly apologize so i don't longer speak about him you know except the he did apologize and so i've moved on from him yes and that pain but what what is funny is that the negative not funny ha but funny strange to me was that the meme he created was shown thousands of times around my community and the apology he issued was not of course but that's okay because again like i said i know what i'm about and he did have to apologize he did and we settled

out of court and that's done and so i'm going to move on from that and I learned a lot of lessons. And again, that's more about him than this is more about him than me. Right. Yeah, these awful things. Like I, you know, teachers, teachers in library and school, because I'm a public school educator. And we don't go into our fields because we want to harm children. We go in because we want to make a difference.

And we don't get paid very much for making a difference. No. We're trying to make a difference. and so to then further like these people educators and school librarians who go into our fields

just wanting to make change to suddenly just start attacking and belittling and it's just so wild to me it's so wild. It is. It really is. And like you're saying

like it's never going to again his apology is never going to make up for the fact that like what stood out to me when you were talking about it too is like it like death threats were happening and like someone even said something along the lines of like we we know where you live and click click like alluding to um guns essentially yes we know where you live and work you have a large target on your back see you soon beep click click and it's like anyone who's making fun of you for crying for having a reaction part of

of it was even you're like I work with children like you were like having to live with that fear as well that like there were children around you all the time even when you're a home like it's your it's one it's your home but then your husband your children your child um well my my old child went to my school my nieces and nephews go to my school yeah even that like but i love every kid that that goes to my school and they're putting children in the mix and saying yes you know we know where you live and work i work around children and i yeah that's that's sick though that's you know there's a lot of terrible and but it did it devastated me totally not just for myself but for the potential harm that they could do to my loved ones people that i care

about yeah it's horrible to be living in that kind of fear and it over books like Like, I understand in some ways because I'm like, of course, like, books are so powerful. Like, so I understand. So actually, yes, of course, this is something that when people are controlling, that's what they're going to go for. But at the same time, you're like, I'm getting death threats because I'm advocating that books should exist. I just, I thought that was wild. I can't imagine living in that type of fear. And the other thing is like, sometimes you hear this conversation around being.

books where you're like is it like a badge of honor and you're like no it is not a badge of honor that my books got banned and i think similar to your story it's it some people it might be easy to look at it even like you're saying some of the people like thought you were going after fame like excuse me what like this is not how i would go about it if i wanted fame like it's it's insane said just yesterday i posted um i was nominated for uh made of i was made a finalist for louisiana end of the year or something and um i i post online yesterday i i trade it all in like i was i was named a time magazine 100 next person the year like i would trade that i would trade the book trade it all in if they would stop harassing libraries library workers and stop trying to erase

people and stories and i would trade all that in and go back to being you know in the shadows like do they think I like you know living in a community where half the community thinks I'm a pedophile groomer for nothing I've ever done going and doing my living you know trying to do the best I can for kids during the day I come home I probably do two or three interviews or podcasts a day oh wow during the school year I fly on the weekends to other states even other countries to spread the message I am tight hired. Do people think I want to do this? I'd rather be sitting on my couch with my husband and my daughter. Yes. But that's not where we're at in the world. And so these people that say I'm seeking fame and forth, like what, I don't know what kind of fortune they think I'm getting over speaking out. I don't get paid for interviews. So, you know, I and I don't know. I guess I think authors made tons of money. I don't know. We don't. I mean, I'm sure if you're like, you know, you're Anne Patchett.

Yeah. You know, or you're Stephen King, yeah, but not Amanda Jones from a small town Louisiana with her one book. I know. I think a lot, yeah, I think a lot of people have no clue how much authors don't make in most cases. Yeah, no clue. But again, I mean, I am privileged and I am blessed for it to have a book, but I just want to get the message out.

It's not, I'm trying to protect kids and not just kids. their grownups, their library grownups, as Michael Threats would say, protect the library kids, the library grownups, the libraries themselves, and then protect the authors and the history and the resources and the stories. And if some people want to think I'm a bad person for that, that, again, that's on them. Too bad. Yeah, totally. That all of that was making me think about, I mean, a couple of things. But when you are in, in your trial, you kind of mentioned, which is crazy part of why in the first round the defamation essentially got thrown out was because they designated you as a public figure which oh yeah going into it you're like i'm not a public

figure like you're saying i'm a manda jones from a little parish in louisiana like i'm not a public figure i'm not a public figure it's become out of ridiculous out of this world exposure i am a public figure but at the time though and that's it was making me think I have a friend who's posted before about like especially like black activists during the civil rights era it's sometimes we like post haste or like looking back on stuff we're like oh that person just always felt like an activist or like that person was like meant to be an activist and it's like sometimes actually in a lot of cases it's people who are just saying what they believed or trying to, in the case of marginalized non-white people in America, trying to say,

like, I have a right to be a person and to have full rights, basically. And so it's actually so common that, like, a lot of the people we think of that way, they weren't like born thinking, like, I'm a radical. I'm an activist. I'm like, that wasn't what happened. It just kind of happens over time. And it made me also think you mentioned Martin Luther King's quote about the blueprint where he says like this is not a direct quote but basically when you discover your life's work um he says do it with passion and excellence as if god almighty called you at this particular moment in history to do it i so powerful i love that quote in general but can like you're saying like you're tired you're not doing this for fame however like you can't stop talking about it yeah i can't stop

But I refuse to stop talking about it because I am coming from a place of love. And I talk about it when I don't have, even when my voice runs out and my hair is falling out in chocks, which has happened. I still talk about it. And once a year I go and listen to Martin Luther King Jr.'s the speech, what is his life's blueprint? and how I think sometimes if you're born knowing that this is your life or life's work like I know I want to be a librarian like this is what I want it's the best job in the world and I think it's a disservice to my community if I didn't try to do it as if God Almighty himself had put me here to do this in this period in history and I go I'm thinking about what you said about

people are born thinking they're going to be this way I've met the author George Jim Johnson author of All Boys Aren't Blue. It's fortunate to be on a panel twice with George. And I am sure that when George was just writing about being their authentic self, you know, just expressing and putting a light, putting just a beautiful work of art that expressed themselves. And George said, I didn't, I didn't choose this fight. This fight chose me. And George then became an activist.

And I'm sure that George never set out to be that way. right they just wanted to be themselves right but same with you know i think about peter parnell and justin richardson who wrote intangu mix three they just set out to write a feel good story about two male penguins and now they're headed to the supreme court to defend the first amendment for all of us and i i will never we can never pay people like uh justin and and Peter and George, because unlike me, they actually are from a community. They're a part of a group of people who have been historically marginalized. And so I just have the utmost respect for people like George and Peter and Justin and all of the people that are out there, the authors that are just out there telling their story or other people's stories.

And then they find themselves in the crosshairs. it's not fair and i will speak out about it yeah and you're you in the chapter i love your chapter titles too or so like it added a levy to it almost um but your woman in the mirror chapter i just found so inspiring because in a lot of things you talk about how and i have learned a lot about this myself as well it's like growing up in the education system that we did like there wasn't a priority on like I was something I was really realizing recently I did all the English classes I was in AP English and then I'm like looking back on it I'm like I did not read a single not white author that whole time and so of course I wasn't aware of a lot of these things

that were happening until recently but what you're talking about with people who have been marginalized in that way you also started to realize like we can't expect marginalized people to fight the fight and talk about everything because they're like it's them fighting against their own oppression so it's it's like uh it's fantastic that there are marginalized people who write stuff and like you're saying they might they're not thinking it's like activism they're thinking i'm just like writing about like memoir type essays or something like that um but they they can't win this battle it has to be other people helping them as well And I kind of similarly have that realization when this administration got reelected where I was like, I'm white.

I'm a female. I don't have children to worry about you do and you're still in your activism. But I was like, I'm white. I don't have children to be worried about. I'm my own boss. So no one can fight. Like there are so many reasons that I need to be talking about this because like you've said, like we can't expect marginalized to speak about it. so can you kind of talk about like that part too like you're like no I am going to talk about it

I um I have so I have a tattoo on my wrist and it's P cubed and so it stands for it's a quote by author Samir Ahmed that says use your power and privilege for purpose and again I get made fun off for saying I have privilege but I do I there's a lot of privilege in being white straight middle-class, cisgender female. The only people that have more privileged than me would be people with a little more money or my male counterparts. Men, yeah.

But I have been very blessed and I'm a very privileged person and I think that it takes people like people that are being oppressed shouldn't have to speak out for their own existence. We should all care. We should all care and we should all care and we should all fight for it. And no, I don't like, I'll be honest, I don't like being a big face of this movement.

Right. I don't. It's, I, I don't like hearing myself talk and I don't like, you know, but I'm going to do it because I have been given a platform. I was given it, it started back in 2021 when I was, even before all this happened, when I was named librarian in the year by school library journal, you're given a platform. And to not use it for good as such a waste. And so if I know I don't want to be in the spotlight, but the spotlight's on me.

So if I went and hidden the shadows, what a waste. You know, what a waste. And so I have to put my big girl underwear on and go out there and do things I don't want to do and be uncomfortable. Yeah. Because everybody deserves we're all humans. We're all humans. and we all need to start loving one another we're in a horrific point

in our country right now not just with book bands but with so many human rights and other issues and we got there because of hate we got there we are here because of hate and a lot of hate and a lot of greed and greed and hate and we have to turn it around

and the only way we can do that is that we have to use our voices and we have to advocate. As Stacey Abrams would say, we must advocate with empathy. Yes. And so I know I don't like these people. Yeah. I have choice words, but I have, I'm under a microscope.

And so I am going to do what Stacey Abrams says and advocate with empathy. And I'm going to do what our former first lady Michelle Obama says. And when they go low, I'll go high. And we have to push love and not hate. Because our country is just in a rotten spot right now. Yeah. Yeah, I think that empathy is so important and it's so incredibly strange to me that there's, again, and within the Christian nationalist movement, there's a lot of talk about how empathy is toxic. Right?

I'm like, you really mean that? Like, what? What is the toxic positivity? But that's like, not. not from a place like empathy is from the heart yes you know and empathy is from the heart and who can fault someone for being loving and kind i guess white christian nationalist can't because my senator again does it all the time i hate it it's it's insane to me well yeah she actually go ahead no you're fine i'm not going to say what i was going to say

um even even with empathy i know you said you went to therapy as well i did like like seven or eight there's a therapy in my 20s. And even if you're very empathetic, there's also still room for having boundaries so that you don't feel the weight of everyone all the time. Yeah. That's still not saying that it's toxic. It's toxic to have empathy. It's just like learning how to like not get overwhelmed by it, basically.

And I find a lot of librarians are very empathetic. Because you tend to go, because I've met 100,000. actually, I have thousands of librarians in the past few years from all my travels. And they all have the same thing in common is that they all tend to be empathetic people. And I'm finding that that's being preyed upon. And what a shame. You know, what a shame. And then when they are empathetic and kind, the weight that librarians are feeling right now,

the weight of the world. And it shouldn't be that way. Funding is getting cut massively, federal funding at least. like that's a good point i i did want to mention to you that like when they start these book bands it is about the books and it is about oppressing people and taking out history but um a lot of it from that's coming from politicians there is this it's because they want to defund yeah they do want to defund public schools they want to defund public libraries they want to privatize everything because it goes back to greed and money yeah and i wish people would see

through that that it's not always about the books because they we saw that very very early in our community they pivoted once they saw they weren't getting anywhere with us with the books then they pivoted they started trying to defund our library yeah yeah and it's like oh I thought your cause was the books and protecting children but now your cause is to completely eradicate the library like you know and they're trying I mean they well around election time I had some people where I was surprised by the conversations I was having with him. I had them telling me, like, he's not going to do Project 2025. That's not him. And I'm like, I think it is. And now I believe, like, statistically people, you can go look it up. I think about 65% of Project 2025 has happened

by the end of 2025, so much so that the Heritage Foundation has put out their 2026 goals, which are just as alarming. And they're trying to completely eradicate the Department of Education. Yeah. I wrote it. an essay for Time Magazine back in like October before the presidential election. And I said the fate of this election will determine, or this election will determine the fate of libraries. And people were like, I mean, that's so ridiculous. And I kept pointing out that libraries are mentioned on page five in Project 20. They start right from the beginning of libraries. And I, people are like, no, that's nonsense. The very first thing with this person was the very first thing, one of the very first

things this person did as president was eliminate what trying to eliminate the institute of museums and library services and cut 200 and something close to 300 million dollars in grant funding to our library systems. Don't tell me that libraries aren't under attack. I know. Yes. And it's another thing historically we as a people burning libraries is one of the we're eradicating them in some ways is one of the first stages of fascism because having an uneducated population, which is like has even been my experience. I've now kind of like, I consider it my continuing education is like filling in all the gaps that were not taught to me. The more uneducated you are, the more you're not going to care about what might be happening to other

people. A dumber society is an easier led society. And it's just, it's heartbreaking that that that is something that anyone would want. Well, and what it's going to affect, or who it's going to affect is the most vulnerable in our communities. So people who might be, they say, oh, it doesn't matter to me because I'm white, straight, Christian, cisgender, doesn't matter to me. But it's eventually going to matter to you because in my community, the poorest areas of our community are where white, straight, sister, people are living in poverty.

and they're going to lose their Wi-Fi and they're going to lose the resources and their programming and they're going to lose that and they're the ones that's going to suffer. The rich people aren't going to be the ones that are going to suffer. The people with no money are going to be the ones that don't suffer. And then how do you get an education when the library's not there and there's no more financial aid and there's a donor society? I know. Dear-led society.

People vote against their own interest every single time. That's what I was going to say. That is the terror. part that like this administration so effectively convince people to vote against themselves by like fear mongering really just fear mongering that's almost it like it was just like lies yeah lies and even if you don't want to help yourself you don't want to help your future like your children or your grandchildren or your best friends children and grandchildren or your nieces and nephews and I don't yeah yeah there's a lot of sadness around this issue

I have and there's also I see the light at the end of the tunnel because right as we've seen in Louisiana they went too far too fast with the tax on libraries so we are seeing the pendulum swing back in Louisiana and I can only hope that the rest of the country I mean we're not there yet I mean, don't give it no. We haven't, we're not a utopia for libraries by any stress of the imagination here in Louisiana, but I see the pendulum shifting. Yeah. And so, and that is what, why I am here to help push that pendulum in the right direction. Right. Yes. I am very happy that we have people like you. I think it's important for us, all the, those of us who are feeling like, oh my God, what is happening? It's so important to find each other too so that we don't completely lose hope. Because you even point out, there's a really good chance that the most hateful people are the loudest, not the largest group of the population. Oh, yeah, they're absolutely not the largest. I mean, I look at all the studies that Penn America and like every library and ALA have done. And people, majority of people trust libraries.

The majority of people in our country are against censorship. It's just that some of these people are so loud. And then they use these tactics by completely harassing and trying to destroy people's lives of anyone who wants to speak out that it's not as openly talked about because people are scared. But I think the majority of our country loves libraries and it loves the First Amendment and is against censorship. Yes. Well, I know you have a chapter where you talk about things that people can do. But for anyone who's listening and maybe hasn't read it yet, what are some things that, uh, maybe are even just very accessible ways to support libraries.

The easiest. Absolutely easiest thing to do is if you don't have a library card, go get one. If you have one, go renew it. Check those books out. Check those resources out. People say, well, how does that help? Because libraries do end of the year statistics and they do audits. So when libraries are coming up for funding and people are trying to ban books,

librarians can show statistics and say, well, in my community, I think it's like 80% or something have library cards. So no, the community is not against libraries. And every year since the war on libraries in our community started, our library statistics have grown in usage and checkouts. So we're able to say, look, if you don't like it, why are you all checking out books? So the biggest and best thing you can do,

download ebooks, audio books, go and check out those physical spaces. Go see what your library has to offer. We have telescopes, cake pans, 3D engraver. There are a lot of 3D printers in libraries. We even have cultural passes. You're a family of four and you want to go to a museum. Go check out cultural passes. You can go for free.

Yeah. So do that. The second thing I would say is you've got to pay attention. Maybe you don't want to go and speak out at a meeting like I do. Right. But pay attention and spread the word. Hey, did you know that they're trying to cut funding? Like spread the word.

And then go to those meetings. You don't have to speak. You can sit and you can clap when people, when you agree and you can, you don't boo, you don't do that, but clap, you know. And if you're listening, people who are listening today, sit down today, you write a letter to a librarian, a school librarian, or a public librarian. Because we're feeling it. I know if I if I I have a whole binder of thousands of cards and things that people have sent me and that's what gets me through so reach out it makes a difference yeah I loved how you talked about like if you see positive comments like about librarians you'll like message that person and be like please tell this library and how much they meant to you like it's so important it's so important and I as much negativity as I've had in my own community I have had my it's my it's a one

wonderful life moment because the amount of children who are not children anymore, again, I would like to preface that I am not communicating with minors. These are kids I taught. My oldest students are like 37. Wow. Yeah, because I started at 22 and I taught 14 year olds. And so they're, you know, 37, 38, whatever. So people that I've taught have so many have reached out to me to tell me what I've meant to

them. people and i you can never take that away from me and these people that are pushing book bans they're not receiving that don't think so you don't get that when you push out hate so take the time to reach out to to someone that meant a lot to you a librarian or a teacher or whoever because it means the world to us and it helps keep us moving forward and fighting the good fight yes yep everybody everybody go message some librarian i'm assuming most people who listen to this um my throat's just closing on me uh who listened to this probably had an experience with a library and that was really good because you're probably a reader so and i did reach out to

mine i reached out to dr charley macdonald when this all happened to me it made me realize and i reached out to her and um she became dr macdonald and she's actually a professor of library uh library science students now and so um you know i reach out to those people it it means a lots of them. Yes, yes. Well, thank you for doing what you're doing. Thank you for coming here to talk about it. And hopefully we, I think it's important to remember sometimes that's what reading nonfiction helps me with. We do go through cycles. And so I do hope we're, you know, eventually we're going to see a very different experience and conversation about libraries moving forward. I hope so. It's going to take a lot of people, a lot of people joining together. But I think that

happening so I have hope for the future yeah I have a lot of hope in my heart so yeah we don't want to give up on that I don't want to give up on that but I thank you for having me and and allowing me to talk about this is this very very important topic that is just yes near and dear to me but I think near and dear to a lot of people yeah yeah I when I realized like the timing of this it'll be like my first episode of 2026 I was like I think that's setting the tone right good positivity into the future and collectively I like to use the hashtag better together because collectively we're all better together so we are we're better together and we just have to keep that in mind and let's hope for a good 2020 let's hope this is the year we're going to get at least a few more

bills that are anti-perfeiting on the books across our country