Bookwild - Follow the Rules… or Else: Marcus Kliewer's The Caretaker

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

You all know how excited I am to say that this week, I got to chat with Marcus Kliewer about his newest horror book The Caretaker!  We dive into his unconventional path to writing, our shared fascination with psychological horror, and how he plants his Easter eggs in multiple mediums. Listen to hear more about: The Caretaker’s premise, tone, and how it connects to We Used to Live Here Marcus Kliewer's origin story—from Reddit horror posts to book deals and adaptations Insight into psychological horror, ambiguity in endings, and why “not knowing” is so unsettling A candid discussion on OCD, anxiety, and how those experiences shape the story’s tension Behind-the-scenes details on worldbuilding, Easter eggs, hidden codes, and what might connect across his books Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with Marcus Cleaver about his book The Caretaker. But if you've been a long time listener, you know my obsession with his first book. We used to live here. I still think about that book. It's still the top performing video I have on my YouTube channel. I was thoroughly obsessed with that book. And shout out to my buddy Gare for connecting me with Marcus's publicist. We did record this in February.

So there may be some references that sound out of date. You may run into that, but I thought it was a really great conversation. The gist of it is this girl Macy is trying to find a job, and she sees a caretaking job in Craigslist and thinks, that's something I could do. And she goes there and then finds out that there are all of these rituals she has to do to keep the homeowners home safe while she goes away. And if she doesn't follow the instructions,

creepy things start to happen. This one is super atmospheric. It is very creepy. I loved it. It is very different than we used to live here, but it is a part of the same world. And I can't wait for you guys to hear us talk about it. So anyone who has been listening to this podcast for about a year or more knows that we used to live here is like my favorite book of all time. So I am so excited to be here with Marcus to talk about the caretaker and some other things. So thank you for coming on the podcast. Of course. Yeah. So the first thing I always want to know when I first start talking to authors is what their journey to writing was. And I know yours even started on like a Reddit, a subreddit. Well, that might not be where it started. But I know that was part of it. So can you kind of talk about

your writing journey? Yeah. So I've been writing for as long as I can remember. And I want to say around 2014, I started writing on a subredic called No Sleep. And I did decently. I don't even think those stories are public anymore or if they are, they're pretty hard to find. Yeah. Because it was under a different account. And I took a long break from it. You know, life gets in the way.

And then I ended up seeing an article. This was back in 2020-ish around COVID. I see an article about some guys that had sold their no sleep story to Netflix. And I was like, oh, I used to write on that subred, and I did okay. So I thought I'd give it another go. And just by luck of the draw, after a few months, I got reached out to by the same people that had sold that story to Netflix. And then it just kind of snowballed from there. got a book deal, a two book deal, then a three book deal, then a movie deal. And yeah, it's just been

kind of a roller coaster ever since that I'm still kind of in shock, but very fortunate for sure. So at least with the two books you have put out, yes, at the time that people are listening to this, the other one will have come out, they are both really eerie horror books. Is there anything that draws you to horror or do you even know? Or is it just kind of like, well, I just enjoy it. I think there's like a forbidden fruit aspect to it. Like when I was a kid, we weren't, we never really had scary movies in the house. And, you know, I grew up in a religious home, nowhere near as crazy as what's in, we used to live here, thankfully. But that's definitely going have restrictions on on what you watch um so i think there's that aspect of like oh you can't watch

these these are these are bad these are sinful and that kind of makes it more enticing um and i think for me i just i'm always drawn even if i'm reading something that's not horror i'm like drawn to those elements of it so if i'm reading um a fantasy book and then there's an element of like something really left field that's kind of borderline horror. I'm always just fascinated by that. Yeah, and it feels like a healthy way to let off steam. So, yeah. I agree.

I also grew up same way, super religious. Like, everything was off limits. So I had never really thought of it, but that could be part of the horror draw for me, too. But the other thing I think I enjoyed, about, well, I know that I enjoyed about both your books, is it's also like very psychological horror. Like, that's like there's your kind of like typical horror aspects, but it's also very psychological, um, both of them. So, uh, do you kind of, do you kind of just naturally go towards that? Or is there something within that that intrigues you too? I think, um, like a lot of

my favorite horror definitely leans into that element, whether it's like Stephen King or it's Japanese-based horror. And for me, there's always a lot of energy and the tension between the supernatural, the imagined, and the human. So I think playing with those three at the same time can be really freaky because it's relatable. Like we don't really know. I think Blair Witch is something that you probably see me bring up in other interviews is you don't really know are these hikers losing their minds? Is it other people in the woods messing with them?

Is it a supernatural entity? And that not knowing is just very primally unsettling. It's like we're hardwired to want to know what kind of threat we're dealing with. And when we're not giving that answer, it's you don't really know how to even cope. Right. Yeah, I totally agree. And the other thing that it was making me think about to is your, so no spoilers, but with your endings, there are some, in both of them, there are some things that are left ambiguous or unanswered a little bit. And I know everyone has their own feelings about endings like that, but I do tend to enjoy them when it's like asking, uh, asking, uh, it fits some of the questions and the themes that were going on in the books and the fact that we kind of don't always have answers. So is that kind of like an extension of what you were just talking about? Or do you just kind of get to the end and you're like, this is the end part for me?

I think we used to live here. It was like I'm juggling 20,000 different things. And there's really no way I could have come to a satisfying ending that would have landed it in a way that still. maintains the kind of cosmic horror of it all. So with that one, it was like, I always knew was going to be an ambiguous ending. And with Caretaker, though, I'm actually quite surprised by, there's obviously things that aren't answered, but there's a lot of people that I feel, I feel like I wasn't clear enough in how it ended.

So I actually went in and did some changes to it between, so the, if you read like, like the arc version. There's quite a few differences between that and the final book where I made it a little more clear. I don't give answers, but I really viewed that as a very definitive ending that people, like, when it ends, should be like, oh, that makes sense within the rules of the thing. And I try not to look at reviews, but there was just a concerning amount of reviews that were generally positive, but just being like, oh, man, it seems like it's opening up for a sense. sequel and I never intended that whatsoever. I really wanted it. I really wanted it to be like, oh, that's the end. And so it's very similar, but I just gave a few little more nudges to kind of make it a bit more of a concrete as to what happened. And hopefully more people are able to

kind of pick up on that. Because I think for me, you're never going to be able to communicate 100%. There's always going to be people that miss things. And that's not their fault. whatsoever, but once it becomes like more than 30 or 40% of readers, then I'm like, okay, something's got to change. You also don't want to hit people over the head with a sledgehammer. So, yeah, I guess I won't talk about it here because it's spoilery, but yeah, I think. Yeah. Yeah, but there's definitely ambiguity as to when it comes to like, what are the rights, what's going on there? What is the meaning behind them?

Yeah. That's ambiguous. And I never intended to answer those in the book. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Like, the caretaker isn't as open-ended as we used to live here. There's also just more questions overall, I think, and we used to live here when you're reading it. But yeah, you don't get all of the answers. But I do have a question for you later about it, but I will do it later. with the caretaker though I know I've seen you mentioned somewhere like this is in the same world as we used to live here

but it's not a sequel it's different characters totally different things was there a reason you kind of wanted to stay in that world and do you think you'll always stay in the kind of the world of the old gods um I'm just like I love world building like I think

I fell in love with world building long before I fell in love with writing. And I know they're very similar in a lot of ways, but like, you know, growing up reading Lord of the Rings. And for me, it's just so satisfying to kind of just be building one little thing, one book at a time, one short story at a time. And then kind of just adding these layers until it becomes this much larger presence. So there's that element. And then I think probably 80 to 70% of my books will be in this universe. But I do have, I actually have something coming out after Caretaker with, I can't say too much on it, but there is one story in there that is completely separate universe.

And then there's a few other things that are in the old host universe. And I think that kind of gives me leeway to go a little crazier because I want, as crazy as we used to live here is, I still want it to feel grounded and in some kind of reality, whereas there are certain types of stories where I just want to go crazy over the top, and they just totally wouldn't fit within that universe. So, um, right. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, with the caretaker, what was, so people know if they heard the beginning of the episode. It's this girl Macy basically is an episode, is an a position where she needs to take almost any job she can get. And she applies for this job of being a caretaker and then finds out it's she has to do a lot of strange things to keep

the house safe, essentially. What was your like inspiration moment with this book? It's a very specific moment, actually. I was walking around Vancouver. and I saw an ad it was on a light post have a picture of it somewhere I've been trying to find it and it was like oh that's cool it was literally just like it was like some kid I don't know kids maybe early 20s

like we metal band we need a drummer already have guitarist and singer and then there was phone numbers at the bottom and it was written just very earnestly and very sincerely and I, it was just very funny in a charming kind of way of, um, you know, just that looking for a metal band drummer. And then it just kind of sparked, um, I don't know, I guess the idea of seeing an ad that seems rather innocuous, which is obviously a trope. We've seen it in lots of things, like, especially when it comes to like, sitting or caretaking or, you know, take care of my elderly grandparent kind of

stories, but that kind of sparked it. And then the neighborhood I was in at the time of seeing that was very similar in some ways to Brooksview Heights, not quite as over the top McMansiony, but just very Pacific Northwest and just beautiful. There's a few McMansions there, but you know, just like these gorgeous houses just surrounded by wilderness. And that image to me was just, I really like the juxtaposition of that of just crazy gnarled trees. And then you just have like a prolescent Greek looking mansion just sitting there. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. It is a fascinating concept. And I feel like the title works on multiple levels, but you have to read the book to understand that. So I won't say anything else about that part. So with the so another question that was on my mind as I was reading it basically I don't think it's a spoiler to say Macy basically finds out that she has to kind of complete these rituals every day to keep things safe generally so how did you come up with the rituals or I know some people are like they just came to me but there are some like

interesting rituals and how did you decide like how many? Yeah, it's hard to know because the rules story is just notoriously popular online, especially now with TikTok and everything like that. And so I'm sure I unintentionally absorbed a few from other stories without realizing it. And I even make an acknowledgement in the final book to be like, there's just so many, if you go to Reddit, I'm sure there's just hundreds and hundreds of stories. And it got to the point where I actually just avoided reading them because I didn't want to read something that ended up being similar. you know and being like oh shoot now people are going to think i just went off but i think for me the types of stories um and rule stories have been around far before reddit i mean i reference gremlins in here as an example i mean i think most horror at its core is a rule story to some

degree sometimes the rules are more explicit and sometimes they're more ambiguous but i think for me the ones like the really innocuous seeming stuff of like a light-trily turning on or off, that always really grabbed me. Paranormal activity, for better or worse, the original film was also massively influential on me for that reason. I think if you watch that movie on its own terms, without all the hype, without sitting a bunch of drunk friends screaming at the TV because nothing's happening, I think it's actually quite a respectable horror film.

And if you let it, if you let it kind of wash up. over you, just having a light flick on at the end of the hallway can really freak you out. And I love that image. Oh, yeah. I think there's actually, I think I directly took an image from paranormal activity of a light turning on at the end of a hallway in the story. And like, just that idea. And something about it turning on is creepier, too, because I think the trope is obviously

all the lights turn off and now the monster's going to get you. But something about a light flicking on, it's like, like, oh, this thing wants to be seen or what? Like, that's freaky to me. Like, it's, like, very... Yes. It goes against expectation in a way that's really unsettling. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, I was reading this. I was reading it at night. And my husband had been at his brother-in-laws. And normally, like, I see the notification. We have, like, ring cameras. So normally I, I, like, see it on my phone. And I'm like, oh, okay, he's here.

but like I didn't know that he was here and so as I'm like reading this all of a sudden the light in the hallway turns on like in the hallway behind me from the bedroom and I was like the fuck is happening right now that was like maybe I should read this during the daytime that's funny because it is it is weird having something turn on that wasn't on it also I don't know if because you're kind of pointing out how it like rules horror does kind of like exist. And for me, it was also reminding me, and I, then this could be me just projecting onto the story, but it was also reminding me of like OCD where like you feel like you have to do all of these things or something really, really bad is going to happen. Was that at all

part of it? Okay. So, funny story. Well, not funny, I guess, but like I actually wrote a story on Reddit called The Man in My Basement Takes One Step Closer Every Week or something like that And that was the story that kind of really got me traction on that website And at the time of writing it, I was obviously riffing off all the rules stories It's even more of a rule story than this one. There's like a literal list of rules that kind of trope And somebody messaged me

Asking if I had OCD because they were like, they were like, Like, so much of this is very, like, they were diagnosed with OCD and they were like, oh, this is just like, exactly mirrors my experience. And at the time, I didn't even, I always had a very narrow view of what OCD was. I think it's kind of how it's representing the media is kind of like, oh, you need to turn off the light three times. Or you need to wash your hands all the time or you're obsessed with symmetry, which is a very real symptoms that some people have with OCD. Yeah, it's a part of it. But I guess the more I started digging into it, the more I'm like, oh, there's so much more to it than I realized. And I ended up getting an actual diagnosis.

I want to say only like a year and a half ago. Like I kind of knew before the diagnosis that something was going on. And then when it came to this book, I also wanted to be, I flip-fopped on in the final book, in the content warning or the note from the author it does mention OCD I think in the early review copies it's more vague it just says mental health and one of the reasons for that was like I don't want people what Macy is dealing with is not OCD it's it's OCD adjacent obviously and it draws a lot from that and from my own experience with OCD and harm OCD and all that kind of stuff but I didn't want people to think this is a one-to-one representation

of what OCD is. I mean, first of all, in OCD, the world doesn't actually end. You think it will, but it doesn't. Right. So it feels like it's almost like a very thinly veiled metaphor for OCD, you know, very. Right. And yeah, and I think for me it's important because, well, having come to this diagnosis so late in life and then kind of looking back at my entire life and seeing all these anxieties and repetitive thought patterns and, you know, harmless, like, oh, I think I've been to like, hurt people and all this kind of stuff and I just thought that was normal like I knew I had anxiety

or depression or whatever but I didn't think OCD was just never on my radar and I think unfortunately most people don't know it's an anxiety disorder yeah and I think a lot of that misunderstanding unfortunately came from the representation of or lack of representation of OCD in media where it's either presented as a punchline or as a very narrow subset of OCD which again is a very real thing that lots of people deal with like the Howard Howard Hughes type

and all that and you don't want to yeah and so I think for me that was I don't want to say it's important or whatever because the other day I'm just trying to tell a scary story but it's very

it's very baked into the story and it's very much drawing from my my own experience, even though I don't have the exact, I don't need to turn lights on and off. My stuff is much more in my head and mental. It's mental, yeah. Yeah, and I think a lot of people don't realize that that is an experience of it. Yeah. Yeah, mine is like, my compulsion is the like overthinking something until I can get it to be like right or I can,

make the most perfect decision. A lot of it actually coincides with my, with being a pastor's kid in a really authoritarian religion where there's like so much anxiety about whether I'm going to make the most perfect decision and then like, then I just can't stop. So some of the, you know, I agree. I think we see one thing with OCD like you're saying with like closing the door five times before they go somewhere. And that's, it is a part of. of it. What's not a part of it is the people who are like, I'm so clean, I'm OCD. That one's still like, I'm never going to like yell at anyone about it. But that one still bugs me a little bit because I'm like, that is so not what you're talking about right now. But I do think it more people could use to

understand it because kind of like you're saying, you wouldn't have thought I didn't think I had OCD when I started therapy. And then I was like, oh, this is a little different than I thought it was. so as I was reading like there yeah there were things that were connecting for me and I won't dive into it but anyone who wants to hear why the ending also kind of helped me

think of it in terms of OCD you can DME but I won't spoil it here for now yeah and then just to add on to that one thing I would say is like it's not a cutesy and I don't want to also take away from people that you know will they kind of like I'll laugh at my own, a laugh at myself and I'll use humor and I'll use levity to kind of minimize

something that's, you know, can be really debilitating at times. But I think there is an idea out there that OCD is this kind of cutesy, quirky little thing. And no, it's a fucking monster and it can, it can ruin your life. It can ruin relationships and it can be completely debilitating and take up your entire mental headspace for days on end. So it's not something that's fun. It can. It's not something that's quirky and cute. It's, um, it can be literally terrifying. So it feels like you can't get a hold, a control of your brain is how mine ends up feeling too. Like, I couldn't get my brain to be quiet. And I, I've talked about the fact that I'm medicated on here before, but the SSRI I'm on made all the difference because I wasn't on one. And then I took

it. And I was like, does everyone, everyone's brain just have like one thought at a time or like not a million things that it's stressing about? It was like the first time my brain felt quiet. And then I tried to go off it just to see if I could. And it was so bad. So this is also me just saying, if you think, if you think medication is helping, it is worth just believing that. that it's helping you. Yeah, yeah. Because it's a lot. It's a lot to deal with.

Um, the other thing I noticed, so there's, there are, there's like imagery in we used to live here. And then there are a few like drawn images as well in this book, um, that don't, that don't get, uh, explained necessarily. Um, so with, with that, are there like kind of like images where you're like, this is what this person found and I need to like draw it out. Is that kind of where that inclusion comes from? With the symbols like, sorry, what was the question? The meaning of the symbols or? Yeah, or like there, since there are just more like drawn images throughout both novels. Yeah, I think for the symbols in particular, I had a very specific vision that honestly they're just impossible. I just don't have the capability of describing them in prose the way I want to.

So I just put them in there as actual images. And there's a lot of thought behind those symbols. And especially for the circular one, like I have like an entire head cannon and pages and pages of lore behind all of these that may or may, they may never get revealed. It might get revealed. But especially for the circular symbol, I really didn't want people to think it was the exact same symbol from we used to live here it's certainly similar and there's an interesting interesting thing to point out the similarities they might be related but i i didn't want people to think that it was the the circle symbol that alice uh whatever her name alison abbey i can't remember her name but you know the person was drawing on the banister and all

that yes and so i think it's alison yeah and it's funny i just had to rewrite those sections for audio because obviously you can't show the symbols in audio. So we're going to include them as PDFs and I'm just very vague. I think I'm just kind of like, oh, it's a weird symbol with circles and lines, but. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's funny too, the cover actually impacted the symbol as well because I think this symbol was much more simple.

And then we came in with that cover and I was just so mesmerized by it. So I added a bit more to the symbol to kind of mimic the cover. So they kind of informed each other unintentionally there. Yeah, that's what it made me think about the cover too, because it has like a really unique circular design essentially. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, it was actually my older sister, who's an architect. So I designed the symbols, but then I got,

I initially just designed them in like really rough sketches. And then she went in and like made them look cool with like etching and all that. That's cool. She also did the map at the beginning of we used to live here because she's like an actual architect. Nice. She did like the blueprints and all that. Oh, that's so cool.

Yeah, it is cool when books have just like at least some other elements. And we used to live here had all of the almost like epistolary stuff. But yeah, I do enjoy when there's more going on in the story. another thing, and I think it's mentioned in the synopsis, but Macy, the reason she kind of has to figure out how to make money, and then this job offers quite a bit of money for just a couple days, is because she is essentially the sole guardian of her sister at this point, who has clearing my throat right before I say she has really bad asthma. So what was making was making her in a desperate situation, something that like you knew you needed to do? Yeah, it's something I, um, I tweaked a lot because, um, I grew up in a, I grew up relatively well off. Um, and then in my 20s, life kind of hit as it did for a lot of, people and yeah my experience became not to the level of what macy is but i've gone five years in a row

where each month was like a panic attack for rent or like to this day i still have that to this day even though i'm fine uh financially for the most part uh whenever i tap my card i have that exact experience and it's like it's just a very um it's very terrifying and it's just a very it's like you have a backpack full of rocks on your shoulders at all time of impending doom of it's your freedom uh it's like money doesn't buy happiness but it it buys you a home to live in and it buys you there yeah it's can exactly it's a bullshit saying it's something that uh it is i understand the sentiment behind it but yeah it's uh

i think when you're really money can't buy happiness but it can pay for heart surgery you know yeah yeah um there's a seeing i guess oCD tying it back but the in the aviator that i really like where he's at um howard hughes is at that dinner and all the rich people are saying like oh poor people they're always talking about money they care so much they're obsessed with money and he's like that's because they don't have any and they need it and they're like he starts freaking out of them yeah so i guess i've had that experience of being in both where like Like I grew up financially stable and then I had my 20s where I really was not at all. And now I'm back into kind of for the most part feeling that financial stability.

But even when I have it, like I said, there's always that pit in my stomach when I tap a card. And I think to tie it back to your question, the most important thing in any haunted house story is why is the character staying in the house? And if you don't have an answer to that question, it can be very frustrating. And I know we used to live here as a perfect example of this where I almost kind of cheated

where it's like if you make the character a chronic people pleaser and that's what's keeping them in the house. And so that works for the character but it's going to anger a lot of readers

especially if they themselves don't have that personality flaw. They're going to be like just freaking leave. What are you doing? Yeah. And, but with this one, I think it's like anyone looking at that situation, especially if they've experienced not being able to pay rent themselves, they're going to look at that and be like $9,000.

Like, people do hits for less than that. You know, like, that is a lot of money for two days. And so I think, I think there's enough reason for her to go and do it. And I think having her sister kind of be that. counterbalance also helped it's funny in a way i think i might have almost gone too far where people are all might be screaming at her to stay in the house because there's a moment where she leaves and she's not following the rights and people are like right what are you doing you need to do this and so um yes it'll be curious to see that reaction um yeah yeah you do feel it and we my husband i we

essentially work for ourselves. But when we started like eight years ago, exactly what you're talking about, there was a time that coincidentally, I needed my asthma meds and our card declined. And we were just like, this, it cannot get worse than this, can it? And it could have. It absolutely could have. But it's such a bad feeling. And yeah, when it, when you could make maybe $9,000, you're going to take that. The, so there's another thing. that actually happens in both books. Well, one happens at the end of the synopsis. One happens at the end of the synopsis. Actually, there's like Morse code at the bottom of the synopsis that I think translates to like 258, if I was looking at that correctly. And then

there is some like Morse code and we used to live here as well. Is there something about that element that you're drawn to? Or do you kind of think of it as a fiction? of that world. It's definitely part of that world and I definitely have head canon reasons for it. Yeah. But it started on my Reddit and it would be kind of how I did it and we used to live here at the end of each part. If I posted a series, I would do one little Morse code word at the bottom and then it would kind of create some cryptic little phrase. And I found, I mean, from a strict business perspective,

on social media, it was just getting the most engagement. Like I did it just kind of a throwaway thing. And then every story, I felt like some people were more interested in that than my actual story. So I was like, oh, well, hey, if it's working, it's getting people to come back. Why not just lean into that? And now it's kind of become something much bigger and it's something to tie everything together. And there will be, obviously this book is nowhere near the level. of we used to live here with all the little secret messages,

but there will be a few little extras in the final hardcover as well, including one that I don't even know if it's going to be possible for people to figure out, until I have an actual copy in my hand. So, yeah, I'm curious about that, for sure. Oh, now I'm excited for all kinds of reasons. It is, it's like, it's like there are Easter eggs,

literally everywhere. Like, I was highlighting, everything that everything that I was like, this could mean something. This could mean something. This could mean something, which is fun. That's why when I even talk about what I loved with we used to live here is like, I love a story that like requires all of my brain power most of the time. Obviously, sometimes I need a pallet cleanser that doesn't require tons of thought, but most of the time, I love a book that does that because I'm so locked into the story. And so it's like, as we talked about, Even like as an anxious person, when there's like so much that I need to focus on in a book,

there's not room to be overthinking other stuff. And so it gets me so locked in. I just, I love stories told that way and just like looking for answers and meaning everywhere. And I actually, we're recording in February, but I read it at the end of January. And not many people have read it. So I can't like necessarily go to a subreddit like I did after we used to live here. And I'm like, man, I'm all on my own trying to figure out anything that was an Easter egg now. Because the subreddit is so fun. Yeah, I'm really excited to see once it goes kind of wide and people can talk about it more openly, just see the theories. And I will say, I think there's more connections to we used to live here than people might first glance.

But it's definitely, I've been very forward. Like, don't go into this book. wanting answers from we used to live here. Because if anything, it's just more questions. Yeah, it is. There were things, like, even, like, colors were really reminding me of color questions that I had. But I don't feel like I got an answer in the caretaker either.

I just kept highlighting every time I saw colors. Is there a genre that you, like, secretly want to write in one day that isn't horror? Um, high fantasy. Uh, going to, whether my publisher wants me to or not, that's going to be something I write one day. Um, but I think even in that, I will still be leaning into kind of the dark fantasy horror element of it. But I'm just so, I'm so obsessed with Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones and that, to me, it's like the ultimate world building and, um, And I might even have a way to connect it into the we used to live here universe because it is such a vast. I don't even want to say multiverse because it's just that term has so much stink on it now from the overused of it. Right. From Marvel. Yeah. So I almost view it as it's one giant house and everything is contained in this one house. And instead of alternate realities, it's almost like different floors in a house. But they're all connected and you can always get back to one. And they're all. Yeah.

Which is, I guess that's just alternate realities with extra steps. But, you know, I like making it seem different when it might actually not be. But yeah, high fantasy. That's like my childhood dream. And I, that's something I'm always plugging away on in the background. It's like when I can't figure out the books I'm working on, like I have this huge head cannon. And a lot of it does actually connect to stuff that is already in these books. like maybe those symbols and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah. Well, I'm excited to keep reading and seeing where all of the head cannon goes. And I just got more into high fantasy lately, especially like you're saying, ones that have horror with them. Sorry, I'm yawning. I read Blood Over Bright Haven here recently. And it was like high fantasy, dark academia, horror. Like, it had so many of my favorite elements all in one. So I've become, I've become a huge fan of that.

So I'd be excited to see your take on it. Yeah, it's a great, it's a great genre to play with. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really like it a lot. So at the end, I do always ask if you have read anything recently that you loved, or if there's a book that you always recommend, or if you don't read while you write, if you've watched anything. I'm watching Night of the Seven Kingdoms right now, which I know like everyone is watching,

but I'm just so in love with that show. I just love that universe. And I just watched Pluribus, which was incredible. I love Ray Seahorn. And I love that whole writing. I think there's some of the best in the business. They are. It's just so inspiring.

And then as for books, the one I always recommend is kind of my like off the top of the head one is a book called a short stand hell. And I think if you want to better understand what might be going on with somebody like Thomas, maybe give that one a read. It's a very short read. it's only three hours of audiobook so i don't know how much that is in pages um but yeah it's about an endless not endless but a near infinite library but it's not not actually infinite um and it's uh it's really really good it's one of those books that like uh it could be like an entire 12 book series and i would read every single one but it's only this tiny little snippet into this world. And

yeah, it's dated in some, I mean, any old book you're going to have some kind of dated things. Yeah. I'm sure my books won't age great. That's just kind of how reality is. But my God, is it fun? And it's so creative. If you like shows

like severance or a fluribus or if you like, we used to live here, it's just it's so brilliant. It's so, so fun. That sounds really good. I, coincidentally, I just started a book today called The People's Library by, I'll think of the name here so that people can know, the People's Library by Veronica G. Henry. And it is like a very, the way I'm 30 pages

in and I just posted my stories about it, but it feels to me like if I Robot was with libraries and librarians is like the best way I could describe it. Oh, okay, that sounds cool. I'm super excited. I love a clever use of the library trope too, so I need to read. You said a short stay in hell, right? Is what it's called? A short stay in hell

yeah, by like Stephen E. Peck or something. Oh, another one is Japanese Gothic which is, that's coming out on the same day as my book. I want to read that one so bad and I'm pending on NetGalley. I am so excited for that one.

It's great. I got to read an arc um nice and yeah it's so cool it's it feels like yeah it feels like some just classic almost like a classic film in a way like a like a like a kirri chasawa type kind of story and it's just so okay it's so unique and so hypnotic and um yeah i'm just very even more excited yeah i think it would be like a good uh good pairing because it's like it's a very different type of world from Caretaker, but it's like, it's nice that they're both coming out at the same time. I feel like you can kind of, you know. That's cool.

I'm going to go have to email the publisher. I'll be like, really, you want to give this one to me? Yeah, yeah. I am the reader you want for this. Well, I can't wait to see just everything else you write. I will constantly be on an Easter egg mission, even if you get into fantasy. So I'm excited for that. where can people follow you to stay out to date with everything?

Yeah, so just Instagram, it's just my full name, Marcus underscore. It's actually Cleaver, which is like the weirdest pronunciation ever, based on how it's spelled, but yeah, K-L-I-E-W-E-R. And then I also have a TikTok that I rarely do anything on, but I might start posting things. Ooh. Yeah, so follow me on there. and then check out the subreddit R slash Old House Archive, if you really want to get into deep stuff.

That's kind of how I'm almost using it as a cryptic writing blog in a way. So it's kind of how we're divvying out background lore, headcan and stuff. If you liked the weird documents and we used to live here, it's kind of more where that came from. Well, I'll put those in the show notes for everyone because you will want, you will want to go into the subreddits. And yeah, thank you so much for coming on.