Bookwild - Friendship, Grief and Second (and Third, and Fourth) Chances: Paige Harbison's Destination Funeral

Episode Date: August 11, 2026

In this episode, I talk with Paige Harbison about her new time loop novel Destination Funeral! Listen to our whole conversation to hear about: How Destination Funeral uses being literally stuck in time to explore being emotionally stuck. The characters are trapped with unresolved relationships, old resentments, and versions of themselves they haven’t fully escaped. Why “What if?” is Paige’s favorite starting point for storytelling. Rather than setting out to write magical realism or a particular genre, she follows a compelling premise and lets the story dictate where it needs to go. How grief and humor can exist in the exact same moment. Paige explains that the combination of heartbreak and comedy in her books isn’t a carefully calculated tonal balance—it reflects the way she experiences real life, where devastating and hilarious moments often coexist.  Why writers sometimes discover what their books are about only after writing them. Paige talks about allowing characters, themes, and even her own unresolved feelings to emerge unconsciously rather than trying to engineer every meaning from the beginning. Why friendship breakups deserve the same emotional weight as romantic ones. Paige talks about how friendships can be some of our longest and most defining relationships—yet we have almost no cultural roadmap for grieving them when they end.  All the Bookwild Links:Check Out the Bookwild SubstackSubscribe to Bookwild on YouTubeGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramCheck Out Author Social Media Packages Follow Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mbaErin Ashley @bellametaphor 

This week I got to talk with Paige Harbison about her new contemporary fiction destination funeral. It is an incredibly fun time loop novel. And the gist of it is four childhood friends who basically grew up on an island together. The kind of matriarch of the friend group passes away and they all have to return for the funeral. As you can imagine, since I mentioned the time loop, they get through the day before the funeral. And then when they wake up the next day, it's the same. day. She does a lot of really cool character work with this and dives into what it means to like actually face tough conversations and how if someone is your friend, it's worth having them. We talk about

how she decided how many cast members she needed to have. We talk about how many different versions of this book existed and we talk a little bit about her narrating her own audiobooks. So that being said, let's hear from page. I am super excited to hear all about destination funeral but I also want to just get to know you a little bit before we dive into the book. And you have done so many things, even just from the bio that I read on Goodreads. So what was your journey to writing? Did you always want to be a writer? It sounds like you tried out all kinds of things.

So yeah, just what has your writing journey been? Well, my mom is a New York Times bestseller. She wrote Shoetics Anonymous and Hoping in a Jar. and she had all these big commercial fiction hits. And before that, she was writing like Farlequin, Paperback, Grocery Store novels. And I grew up coloring on the backs of her printed out manuscripts. So, that's so cool. Yeah, so I literally, and I remember reading them when I was like seven being just like,

oh, they're at the Fourth of July. And both of my aunts are also published authors. So I'm just like kind of swimming in the literary goddesses of my family. I didn't have intentions to be a writer at all. I wanted to be an actress. Like, since I was little, I always wanted to be an actress. And I did all the plays and everything. And so it wasn't really on my radar.

Like, I did it the same way that I might, you know, be 13 and pick up a paintbrush and do something. And it's like it was something that I would sometimes do, but it wasn't anything I had an intention for. And then when I was 19, or I guess I was 18, I was leaving my college, my freshman year of college and I had this German boyfriend and he would not stop talking in the entire time that we were sitting on the train. He would not stop talking like that. And I was just like, I can't. And he drove me insane. Like we should not have been together at this. And he was like, I was like, I'm busy. I'm writing. I literally just like came up with an excuse. And my very first, so I had an idea for a book series at the time I was a teenager. And at the time there was like a

moment of like, like middle grade and Y.A. long series, you know, like there'd be like seven books or something. So I was like, what if you did like a seven deadly sins? Somehow that ended up leading to me writing this mean girl book called Here Lies Bridget. And by October I was published. And that was like June. So I wrote it. I've always written really fast. I just kind of like binge, right? Yeah. And so I got published that October. And then I changed my major from theater to painting because you just like theater is more than a major it's like major hobby and social life like it's your whole life i was like if i'm gonna try to if i'm trying to party and hit deadlines and get a degree all at once i'm not gonna have time for that so i changed to painting because

painting was a great major it was like four hour classes so i'd have like four classes but it'd be two four hour blocks on a wednesday and a thursday and then i was free the rest of the time and so i never missed a party never missed a deadline So that's why you do it. Yeah. So I wrote three young adult books by age 22. Yeah. That was wild. I was reading that. And like obviously that is not most people can't say that. Was it just kind of like once you started writing? You were like, oh, and I just have all of these other ideas. Yeah. I mean, it seems to just be how my brain works. And none of these decisions felt super conscious. It was just kind of like, yeah, I wrote that book. And then I wrote that book. And then I wrote

that book and then I wrote that book and then I wanted to drop out of college. My dad was like, you'll just be glad you have the degree. Just don't. It doesn't, you don't need to. And I was like, but I'd have a more time. I'm glad I didn't because I had mostly for social reasons. It was just really fun. And so I ended up, I ended up writing. And then I got very, very in my own head about making sure that it matters. This is like a lesson every artist learns. Like they they look at books like, you know, a little life or something or, you know, and they're just like, oh, it has to matter and it has to be torturous and it has to be bleak. And it took me a long time to unlearn, like to learn and then unlearn because when I wrote my first books, I didn't know what I didn't know. I was just like, this is just a regurgitation of whatever.

And then it took a little while. And then I started ghostwriting. And that kind of broke me out of my own overthinking. because I was just like, this person is going on late night talking about their book, and it sucks. So it's like, well, I should be doing that. And it kind of helped me break out and stop being so precious. And I was like, I'm allowed to have fun and it can matter and affect people.

So yeah, and then I wrote the other side of Now and had to wait two years for it to come out. But that came out last year. Yeah. I know you narrated the other side of Now as well. I don't know about your YA. but when you were writing like the books that you have narrated, were you thinking about narrating them or how did that come about? Well, my YA books were pretty small and there was no audio book.

There was no nothing. It's just like, you know, it's cool that I got published, but it was like they weren't, right, they weren't blockbusters. And the thing is, is that the one piece of advice I'd give anybody, I mean, I have lots of advice for people who want to write, unprompted unsolicited advice. But my number one thing is read what you, like read out loud. Read what you're writing out loud.

Whether it be literally while you're writing like a psycho being just like she said. And like if it's like that, but really once it's finished, take that chapter and read it to a trusted person. And it doesn't have to be somebody who knows story. You're not writing for professionals. You're writing for readers. So, and everybody is an absorber of story. whether they watch TV movies or they read, whatever. So read it to your best friend,

read it to your partner, read it to your mom, whatever. Because you are going to find continuity errors. You're going to find grammar stuff. And you're most importantly going to find what feels really unnatural. And because I have that acting background, dialogue is super important to me that feels normal. It feels like how you talk, which sometimes gets like, you know,

I use the word just a lot. That's like my, everybody has their little tick. I say, just don't, you know, it's just, you know, I say that constantly. But it's because that's how real people talk. And the thing is, is that dialogue is one of the things that brings my particular writing alive. And my voice is always something I've been praised for. And it's because I do a lot of dialogue.

And I want it to sound very conversational and normal. Yes. So, yeah, I always write it to be read aloud. But I don't, I've always read my books to my mom, my brother, my partner, whoever. So I know I was going to read it either way. And I always write, as much as I read, which I do read a lot, I watch everything. So I'm always thinking like, I'm always writing the way my favorite limited series would feel

or I'm writing the way a movie would feel. So it's like it all kind of has that like. Yeah. It's not just to be read black and white. Right. It is really. And there's like a lot of banter, especially in destination funeral. I mean, and we have a friend group.

And I agree. like really stilted dialogue unless it's there are obviously characters that are meant to feel that way but like otherwise it really will take you out of it it's kind of even like um one of my i mean it's not unique to me but uh when movies have just really lazy exposition and you're like nobody walks up to their friends and is like i'm your step sister remember yes you look so happy and I have only seen you looking depressed for a year. Like no one is saying that. Yeah.

So I was like, and I understand with movies, one, if you're trying to skew toward like all ages, I think you run into that too. Yeah. But I prefer some more subtlety when that's possible or like you're saying like really much more natural dialogue. And yeah, like that includes having like filler words. like just, I'm a big, so girl. I like to start myself with, so, like everything. And then when you edit yourself, you really get to, you get to find out the things that you say that you don't think you say all the time.

Totally. Yeah. Exposition is just like, it's important to tell people what's going on, but there are a thousand ways to do that. And it's like, when you read aloud, you're also like, oh, there's a huge difference in tone between narrative and dialogue. And you're like, you know, like there was this awful author. I remember reading a really long time ago.

I just never forgot her and it won't say who she is because she's super successful now. I hated her writing when she first came out. And it was like, you know, she would, all the, the way everybody was talking was extremely narrative, introspective, like somebody would be saying to each, to the other person being just like, you know, well, she's always doing that, although I couldn't, you know,

like just like weird stuff. It's just like, that's not how a person talks at all. you know and they don't talk for half a page that too yeah that for sure um do you think so like you were in theater right well yeah and you acted as well so how did how do those parts like outside of dialogue how do those kind of affect your writing as well i think that it reads i think that my the thing that i've been told by the professionals who have been reading my writing since I was 19 is the voicy. I'm a voicey writer. You know, like I'm not, I'm not, I definitely write a ton of atmosphere because I'm just like a moody bitch and I'm just like,

tell me about that wallpaper. Yes, give me the condensation on the glass. Like I'm very much that, but I'm also, I just, I think that I'm thinking about blocking. You know, I'm thinking about like, someone needs to move here. Like they're not just having this conversation, him standing here, her standing there. It's like, give me some action. Give me some hand. Like, give me some business. You know, and that's the stuff that really sets things apart and makes things feel more human. You can't have two people on a stage talking to each other from across the room. Someone's going to cross the room at some point, pull out the chair and like, you know, and then that's when you use that, you can write in the emotion, be like, he crossed the room and sat down, like pulled out the chair and the

sound was so startling that I felt on edge, you know, whatever. And you communicate that she's anxious by what somebody else is physically doing without like you said exposition just being like i'm anxious yes yes yeah that makes sense and well this will be out of order but one of my questions is about like the island in this book very much feels like a character so um i was experiencing the atmospheric part for sure but i i will ask i'll try to stay linear for people here a little bit. The other thing that I noticed about both the other side of now and destination funeral, they're both magical realism in a way that like just like, which I guess is the nature of magical realism, but like just changes stuff a little bit. So we're just a little bit into

the impossible. Is there something that draws you to writing, writing in like basically our world, but just like a little something extra? Well, I think the best book's start with what if blank. And that is how you come up with a high concept plot. Like that's just the fastest way to come up with something that's called high concept. And it's just like just like everyone in Hollywood is saying, we want IP. Everyone in the literary industry is saying, I want high concept. And it's like, so if you want high concept, what if?

So when I came up with the other side of now, the idea was what if you got to an Airbnb and it was all your stuff. That was my first what if. And then the how of that turned into, well, that has to be something. thing a little supernatural. And then it is a girl books an Airbnb gets there. It's her stuff. She finds herself in the life she would have lived if she'd made a different choice. And then you just complicate from there. And it's like, and her best friend who died when they were teenagers is alive in this life. And that's the what if. And then that has to kind of be put into this

suspension of disbelief place. And destination funeral, like what if you were forced to spend a weekend with the people that you want to avoid the most. And then what if the weekend went on and on? And what if it won was your ex-boyfriend? And what if one's your sister that you're so pissed at? And what if one is somebody you feel guilty for shutting out? Because he really didn't do anything. It was just a baby in the bathwater. And what if your mom died? You know, it's like the what-ifs are what makes something interesting. And I think that the when you read a book and you're just like it's kind of was kind of just empty kind of whatever. you know, any book, I would prefer to do a what-if as a description of a book before I'd ever want to do an elevator pitch. And people ask me that, I'm like, God, I don't know. I hate that. I've come up with the one for the other side of now after, you know, it's like been so long. Now I'm just like, I've got 25 words that'll describe that book. But, you know, it's like you, you take any book, what if you found out you were a wizard at 13, you know, what if you, what if this, what if that, you know, like, you know, it's just, it's just, it's that the what-ifs are what take it to that. place and so I don't really do.

It's not because I want to go, magical realism, I've had like sort of a conflicted relationship with it. So I was like, I don't want to get stuck here. I know. Because like Rebecca Searle comes up with these great ideas. It's just like, my God, though, it's hard to come up with those forever. Like, right.

And so I was conflicted when I wrote Destination Funeral. I at first didn't have the magic in there. And then I was like, but if there, if it is, it's like, it's actually a way to make it a little bit more realistic. because how are you going to get all these adults to get a week off of work and life, you know? And face their issues.

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it just kind of happens when I think what's my concept? Yeah, I love that answer. That makes a lot of sense. I also had a question. Are there other genres that you think you want to explore, like specifically? Or is it kind of what you're saying? Like, you kind of get an idea and then you're just like seeing how to complicate it?

it? Is there, or is there a genre that, like, you kind of do want to write in? Well, similar to this, I didn't, I didn't choose to write magical realism. I came up with the idea, like you just said. But I do, but that doesn't mean I can't target something. So, yeah, it's funny. Somebody recently asked me if I would ever do a thriller. And then I, like, put it on an AMA, well, somebody asked me, and then the next day, somebody asked me, too. And so on my, like, an AMA on my story, I was like, well, this is starting to feel like a sign. And then I got so much feedback of people just being like, yes, yes, do it. And it's like I'm such a true crime girlie. Like, you know, I love that. Like Gone Girl is my favorite book of all time. I'm like,

I love dark, twisty. But the thing is, is that everything will ultimately feel like me because whenever I start writing, they're voicing, they're funny. And honestly, one of the things that drives me crazy in thrillers is that they're just so serious. And they're just, they're looking from thing to thing. And they're just like these noble, tough people who are like being faced with the craziest things, like, where is the character going, what is happening? Yes. And so part of me wants to write

a thriller or a horror, and they always say comedy and horror share a lot of beats. I think that something in that, my third book that I'm working on now is, interestingly, kind of a little bit more thriller-e. I definitely wouldn't call it a thriller. It's super in line with these two, but there's a mystery to it. Yeah. And it's just, yeah, I mean, I think that if I was

going to go straight aim for a genre, be either thriller or horror, because both are, are, the hallmarks of what I do and those are are very similar, like super intense atmosphere stuff, a lot of character-driven stuff that is happening because something crazy is happening. Yes. So I'd love to do a thriller. Yeah. But you're talking about a lot of the things that I enjoy more, especially the longer I read thrillers is a lot of what you're saying is like, one, I just kind of at this point need character work like that tends to be or carry a true character like development um snarky thrillers voicy thrillers all of those other things that just make it really fun to read still because you're right you could even write i mean both of both of your adult books

deal with grief um but are also like lighthearted as well and thrillers can also be extremely dark and extremely funny kind of like you were you were saying with the horror and comedy too. There's that a Jordan Peel quote that like the only difference is the music in terms of movies or TV shows. I would love to see your take on it because your voice also reminds me a little bit of Rachel Harrison. I can't remember if I saw you did you you weren't with her, right? As I was saying that came through. Okay. Well, she writes really voicing horror. So basically I will read it. I will read it for sure. So with Destination Funeral, what was, it sounds like it didn't start out the way you thought it or the way it ended up. But what was your initial moment where you're like, oh, I have an idea.

The initial idea. I mean, for some reason, I've been trying to write a friend group book for a decade. I have had, I've had two really intense groups of friends in my life. One was when I was in college. And it was really complicated because it was like it was. I was only friends with them. I was only, like, let in because I was dating one of the guys. And then there was super clickingy, and I was with him for years.

So, like, then I was clicky. And then I was, like, she can't sit with us, you know? Like, I was, like, then I was a jerk. And then that had so much, like, there was so much, you know, people had hooked up. There were secrets. There was drama. Like, the people were mad at each other. People were talking and had each other's back.

And then a couple years later, I met this group in where I, I'm, moved to Florida and they met this like rugby team and like it was like a wreck or like a wreck rugby team and I was like oh my god all these super hot guys and then there are super hot awesome girlfriends and wives and they just partied hung out had so much fun and they were great but both of these friendships had so much darkness and so I kept trying to write and I actually in fact I had tried to write a thriller um when I was like 25 I tried to write a thriller that was like a friend group thing and it was basically, you know, it was based on one of the people that I basically want dead from one of my groups of friends. And I was like, what if he died, but he framed me for it before

he died? You know, like, that was like the idea. Like, what if he, what if I, what if I was framed for it? And I, and every sign pointed to yes. And that was my biggest fear, by the way. Being framed. Don't, yeah, or, or just like, um, sort of like, uh, wrongfully accused. Like, don't ever listen to Bone Valley if you're afraid of that, because that is, like, the best. But yeah, it's like, that is, that's a fear of mine too, and everything should start in a fear, you know, and like, yeah, I've just been trying to write a friend group thing forever, and I kind of needed to get it out. And then it became this, and like the group of friends was bigger. And honestly, that was just like a logistic issue where it was like, oh, my God,

these dialogue tags are out of control. Like, I cannot, she said, he said, that, da, and it's like, constantly asserting who is speaking. And I was like, I can't do this with six people. It's easier if it's four, because, you know. But yeah, so this book came from that, and it was just, I wanted, I knew it was going to be, I knew it was going to be, the title came first. I knew it was going to be destination funeral.

And that started as something super different. And then it just, it kind of like, I don't usually work, I wouldn't suggest anybody start with the title and work from there, except for sometimes you come up as a title that's just so inspiring that you're like, we follow where this leads and that's kind of how this became what it became there have been two book titles where i have like known what they were like i knew the words and then all of a sudden i was like oh that's what that meant so like i did not even get the destined like destination

wedding but this is a destination funeral didn't even didn't even hit me until i was halfway through the book i'm like oh like a destination wedding and then i was like yeah there's another one blood sugar by Sasha Rothschild that I love. But for whatever reason didn't even, like I knew it was a serial killer, like character driven, kind of a thriller. And I was just thinking of like blood so literally. And then like halfway through, her husband has had diabetes the entire time. And then she has to check his blood sugar.

And all of a sudden I was like, what? God. That's so funny. But I love the title and I should have gotten it earlier on. But it's like it's like when they say like you know like if you're noticing the excellent camera work in a movie they're doing something wrong. So it's probably the same kind of concept. Yes. That's a good point. I think it is. So the book got me thinking I mean about all kinds of stuff. But I did a lot of therapy in my 20s. So repetition compulsions are like. the the loops we get stuck in if we don't like choose to learn a different way. So I thought it was fascinating to use time loops as a way for them to have to like confront stuff that they just weren't confronting. Was that where that kind of got looped in for you or was it time loop? And then you're like, okay, what would be compelling with a time loop? Well, it is one of those things, One of the things that happens when you're writing, and any author who's being honest, will tell you this, a lot of stuff happens by accident.

A lot of stuff happens where it's just like, oh, I mean, your brain is working. Your brain is putting these things together for a reason, but your consciousness is often later. You know, you realize later, oh, my God, I wrote an Elvis daughter book. Oh, my God, I did this. And I was just talking to another author friend who was like, because I had said, I always learned the lesson of my book afterwards. Like when I wrote here lies Bridget, it's like my first.

very first book, I realized stuff about myself later. I didn't, and I was like, oh my God, I had her learn it before I learned it. And like, that always happens to me. And it's, it's almost spooky where I'm just like, well, I better be careful what I write. But yeah, a lot of stuff, like the time loop being a mirror for the traumatic response and what they're doing. Like, the whole problem is that they're, they're fixating on the same problems and they're not growing and they are caught in a loop. Like they already are. That stuff is not, it wasn't like I was like,

you know, cleverly sitting there and thinking, you know what would be a fantastic mirror for this? It was more that I was like, oh, the reason I landed on that is because of that. The cyclical thing inspired a cyclical trick. And what really started for me was that I was, I wanted them to be stuck in time. I wanted the weekend to last weeks.

I was like, how do I get them to sit the hell down and face it? And it's like, well, I just, and the idea wasn't Groundhog Day because I actually hadn't seen Groundhog Day and now have seen Ground Dog Day and hate it. And I also don't like the trope. It's like my least favorite trope of all trips. Give me a fake relationship all day. I hate Groundhog Day because I hate the labor of going through the same bullshit over and over again. I'm like, oh, my God, I can't.

How do you walk over that puddle one more time? Like, I can't do it. I can't, I, I, it's like an itch for me. Like, it's itchy to me. I don't like having to do the same thing over and over and over again. I'm just not a routine person. Can you tell him a Sagittarius with ADHD? So, so, so I'm not, I'm just, I'm not into that at all.

It was more like, how do I make time stand still? And obviously the time stand still at Birdsong is the, um, sort of the, the heart of it. And it's like, it's island time. It's like how, and again, this wasn't. all 100% conscious, but it was like, right, the time loops should trap them in what it feels like to be 17 again, to be, you know, in that endless summer and to be, you know, every day is the same. Because when you're 17 and it's summer, it feels like two years and you're like, I wake up every day I do the same thing. It's like the ocean is there, you know, and there's so little on the

beach, you know, that's doing the same thing every day. There will be slight differences, but not really, you know, it's like, that's kind of, it just kind of worked. And I experimented even with like time just not, time standing still quite literally, where it was like the nighttime wouldn't come and stuff. But then it just got into this stupid stuff where I was like, but like, is the wind blowing? Because that's time too. And then it kind of got me thinking like, wow, a lot of stuff is time. But I couldn't really, I couldn't really figure it out.

So I was just like, let's just have him wake up and be like, yeah. Well, you are right. There, one, it is hilarious that it's really. favorite trope and you're like damn it i just have to i guess i just have to um but yours does like what they do every day actually really is very different so that they're all in it yeah yeah yeah it's not and it's like you said it's not like oh he walked through that puddle a little bit different we're not like repeating like the very literal parts basically so it it is a cool take on that trope um you also mentioned the oh i wrote an eldest daughter novel now that might have just been one of your

your lists but this one definitely is too um so did that kind of end up surprising you too is that kind of uh where you were coming from there yeah i think that the things that an author is not dealing with maybe the things that are going through an author's mind consciously or unconsciously are the things that end up in whatever book they're writing. And that's why, to me, it works best to, I write really fast, I write all in a row, I follow momentum, I just like, I'll write, and I'm just like, I've written 60 pages today.

You know, like, sometimes that happens. And that's because I'm wanting, like, I do that for a lot of reasons, partially just naturally how I write, partially. It's because I just lose track. I'm like, wait, where are we? And then I start repeating concepts and phrasings and words a lot.

So I'm just like, well, I have to kind of do it all in a row. And so when I wrote the eldest daughter stuff, I mean, I just, I was aware of, I was aware of like the dynamic in that I was just like, you know, in a way that younger sibling, the younger sibling's not based on my younger sibling at all. Like that person is not him. But it's, it's kind of a younger version of myself. Like I was all over the place.

And I was, you know, so it was kind of me with my. myself and the judgment of the self and everything was that. But afterwards, it was just like, it was the chips on her shoulder were bigger than I thought, where I'm like, oh, the thing she's deeply resentful of here and the reason she's so angry at the beginning of the book, which, you know, like, fair warning to people. Like, she's not like the warmest character in the beginning because she's pissed off, which I love is like, great. We have taste. Um, she is angry at the beginning. And it's because basically she's had to do a lot of thankless work that it's like, every

eldest daughter has been like, but I did X, Y, and Z. And then someone's, but no one asked you to do that. And then you're like, that doesn't mean I didn't do it. And it's like, and basically that feeling would it have gotten done. And if I hadn't done it, it wouldn't have gotten done. And then, uh, and that would have somehow still fallen to me. Like that's just the eldest daughter's problem. And that's my life.

So that stuff, I'm not like. I'm not experiencing the same things in the book, but the feelings definitely are imbued in it. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that. The other thing is like we, I was mentioning earlier, it really balances humor and like, I mean, all the big, heavy feelings.

It has kind of all of it. Is it something that like when you go back and review, are you like paying attention to balancing those elements? or is it kind of just like life is all of these things. So all of these things will be in this book. That is something that has become like a tag of my books is like the humor and the heartbreak. And I think that that's the number one thing that I don't take any talent credit for. That's not like, that's not like, oh, wow, my execution is so balanced.

It's like that is actually just how I am. I'm just like, oh my God, like there have been some extremely dramatic. huge things that I've had to go through and my family has gone through and like I lost my father and like there's been a lot of stuff and but also like no one's funnier than my family like and I have said this before in interviews and stuff but you know it's like I've never laughed harder than with my entire ghoulish family at a funeral like we were dying laughing and it's just and then when we went to my partner and I went to Ireland it was actually after I wrote the other side of now and I was in edits for it but it was already some

admitted and everything. We were in the back of a cab and this driver was like telling us all about his how his sister died of an opioid overdose and had, oh yeah, it's really hard on the family. And oh, that's the pulp. You're going to want to go down that pulp, you know? And it was just like the ballot, like the, he didn't, it wasn't like trauma dump. Oh, and now we have to move on. It was just like, same breath. And I looked at Richie. Yeah. And I looked at Richie, my partner and I was like, oh, this is why I am the. way I am because I'm Irish and Scottish and other things, but mostly Irish and Scottish. I was like, oh, yes, my people. Because I don't think anything of like dropping the like, oh yeah, dead dad, blah, blah,

oh my God, we should get margaritas. Like, that's just like my same breath. And so my books are always going to feel like that. I'm not like trying to ruminate on grief and I'm not trying to make a joke of it. It's just like, you know, all my what ifs are somehow, there's always the casualty. Right. Right. Yes. Got to write a three. I always have to kill somebody off. You do. You do need to. Like, it's calling to you. So also, there's my word.

So there's also a really big friend group or a friend group. And I know you kind of talked about landing on the number based off of like some logistics even about just like the structure of the story. But I'm always fascinated by like when it. is like an ensemble cast, like how you got to the point of like, okay, these are the people or if it's just kind of like the characters are coming to you. So how is building the ensemble for this one? Most of character-related questions will have the answer that just happened. You know, like my characters talk and things happen. And I'm like, I very much feel like I just

attenuate conversations between my characters. They become who they become. So like I have like, this is my outline for my next book. Oh, wow. And I hate outlining so much, but I have to for certain plots. I mean, this next one's time travel. So it's like, oh, that's a lot of stuff you need to figure out at a time. So I try to do that so I can color in the lines later. But character stuff, it's like I put this stuff up here, but I have written probably 200 pages that I'm not going to use,

where I'm just like, I've written 20 pages and been like, no, scrap it. and then 20 pages and scrap it, 40 pages. And, like, that happens because these characters are telling me who they are. Like, I didn't know she had a dead dad till she said so. Like, I didn't know that I was going to put that one in this book, but I did. And it's like, that stuff happens. But the number of characters in this time, what I wanted, like, my groups of friends, the college group of friends, they were like, I don't know.

I mean, it's even toxic just counting how many there were because it's like, well, they were the main ones. but even that was like a lot that was like eight people and then like there was the larger like the ring outside of those people and like there was like the people you'd expect at any party there were like 25 of them like we're just like oh yeah those are the regulars and you've got this huge cast and then the friends that I made a couple years later it's a rugby team there's a rugby team and extras like number of people and then just like the groupies like yeah and there were a lot of people and it's just like oh my gosh like my picture's from that era are like oh my god I don't remember that guy's name

I was named Bieber. We just called him Bieber because he was young. I don't know. Like, we just, there were so many people in there. And so I was like, that's, I'm not going to write the realistic what I went through, even though that's fun. You can't, like, maybe I will write something like that in a different time with a different set of circumstances, but you're not going to get 25 people to come visit this house. You're not even going to get eight people to come visit this house. But it did start as six people. And so people who have Reddit will maybe remember the character Taylor Ray, who has the daughter who's in town. She was initially part of their main group. And then James was another character who I blended

Austin and James, and that's why his name's Austin James. And I had the character dynamics were entirely different at that time. So it was like, Didian was the mess. Didian was sort of like the younger, she was the younger sister who was kind of like having trouble figuring her life out. Okay. Sammy was like an Instagram chef. And James was her recent ex that they'd been together since they were 16, but recently broken up. And then Austin was like the guy that Didian had like, Will We Won't Weed for a with a long time. And then there was Matt and Taylor Ray. But then those people were sort of serving the same purpose. And I couldn't have everybody beat, you know. And Taylor Ray was mostly comic relief. And she was Southern Big Busted. I was like, she's kind of becoming like a cartoon character. like a cartoon Dolly Barton. And I was like, she, because I don't have enough page space to fully flesh out everybody fairly.

And then Matt was kind of getting lost too. So it was kind of just like everybody was kind of getting a little bit muddy. And like I said, the dialogue tags of like said Sammy. Sammy looked at Taylor Ray. Taylor Ray did this. It just was too much name business. And I just ended up being like, okay, well, what am I starting with? Main character. Give her a complicated sister. Okay. Now there has to be the romance.

element. Everybody wants a romantic element. Give her this guy because that's hot. And then they're, it can't just be the story of them. Now that's just weird and gets to an annoying place. So let me give this other person. Four. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. But there's an entire version of this book with no magical realism and six characters. That is an entire book. Maybe one day I'll be able to put that on Stegger's something. It's a totally different book. What was, what was that timeline like then? So or like how long, how long even like from beginning with the other version of it? You mean within the book or me writing it?

Sorry, how long did you spend writing and rewriting it? I wrote the first version of this book. Oh my God. It's going to sound like a lie, but I wrote the first version of this book in two weeks. And it was 400 pages. Wow. I write very, very fast and it always sounds like bragging or something, but it's really like, it's really just because I can't.

Yeah, I can't focus long enough to do it. long in that. I want to have ADHD actually to do it that quickly. It really is. It's like I'm going to do every piece of laundry today. It's like it's the same thing. It's the same mentality. It makes me highly effective and also very tense. I wrote it in two weeks. It was obviously that two weeks version is not publishable. It's like it's all over the place. There's a lot going on. But it's like putting the main skeleton down is six weeks. It took two weeks. And then this version took six. but when I did that, like that version of it is it took place over a week. There were six of them.

It was also in Didians and Sammy's perspective with flashbacks. And it was getting confusing with their two voices because they were sisters. They were pretty similar. But they were. So I wasn't, it was just not, there wasn't enough differentiation. The book would have been better in a way if I'd been able to do third person. So you could follow them like a camera everywhere and then have some past chapters. that would have been really fun but my writing is that it's strongest when I write in first person it's the most honest it's the funniest it's just like so it just again logistically yeah you feel even as a reader well at least in my experience I know for it there are some people who will not read first person or a third person I'm like I cannot imagine just completely being like I can never read first person but as a reader like it's what a very what a way to self-limit.

Yeah. That's so weird. I mean, I totally get when something just turns you off because it's not the way you like to read it. I get that. But it's like, even as a very professional writer who at this point has written a lot of books, including ghostwriting books, I don't even notice if something's in third person or first person or past or present. I don't really consciously clock that at first. I'm just like I'm reading it and this is this person. And I don't even really notice that at first. So yeah, I don't notice it very often. And I think you're right. The third person really. is more important in like really like large action thrillers where kind of like you're saying where there are so many people involved that like it probably helps to say their names but yeah i don't second person will take me a second to get into and obviously it's so like it's a rarity that that even happens but yeah the other ones i'm like i'm fine i'm fine with either yeah i don't care yeah that's exact proof, though, you'll never please everybody. Because then there's some freaking weirdo out there who's just like, nope, this is

simply not in the right tense for me. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay, Stephen. You're like, okay, well, there we go. Yeah. The, I thought it was interesting, too. We read a lot of books. We see a lot of movies about

romantic relationships or romantic breakups and how hurtful they are, but friend breakups, sometimes people don't even call a breakup when it happens because we kind of maybe as a society haven't taken it as seriously. But I feel like this really dives into just how painful even friend breakups are. Was that kind of there from the beginning or did the characters surprise you with that too? Well, again, it's like it wasn't an intentional thing.

It's just kind of like when you sit down to write, you're like, what's eating at me? Like that's kind of what you are figuring out, whether you are conscious of it or not. which you're usually not. Yeah. I, the biggest breakups in my life are friend breakups, for sure. Like I don't,

I don't have a romantic breakup that I'm still reeling from, and I never did. Like, I never really did. Like I've had a lot of breakups and I had, you know, long-term, those boys counted as eras for me very much.

Like, oh, that was when I was with him, that was when I was him. But the breakups didn't hurt, but the friend breakups were the ones where I'm just like, get me drunk enough and I'm bringing her up. You know what I mean? I'll just all start complaining about her again.

And it's just like, because it just still eats at me because we don't have somebody smarter than I am was talking about this recently. And they put it, I'm paraphrasing, but it was just like, we have things in place. We have a path that we know we walk when we have, when we break up with somebody. We walk down the path. Okay, I got broken up with. I'm heartbroken. Wake up the next morning. Basically like, rosé for breakfast, wallow, sad music.

Ben and Jerry's, whatever your thing is, go out and sleep with somebody else, whatever your thing is. Yes. We have that. And then your girlfriends, your guy friends, whoever they know, you're like, oh, man, you know, Sam broke up with me. And it's like, oh, dude, I'm so sorry to hear that. And then, like, everybody knows what to say.

But you have a friend breakup and you're like, there also is no relationship to say, you know what? Like, we're done. And we don't even, like, there's just nothing in us to receive that. like, oh, you just broke up with me. And in our relationship, friend breakups are so much more ambiguous. It's just like, you have a fight or something happens. And it's just like my, I had, one friend that I had a friend break up with was not like a

super, super tight friend, but it was just how it ended was so freaking weird that I never stopped thinking about it. And then another friend was like, best, like ride or die for five years. And then it was just like over, over in a choice. And it was just like that never, it was just like, so shocking to me that it just ended and was just like, I don't even, probably she thinks it's my fault that we never reconnected, even though she was the one who very obviously wronged me. But it's like, right?

It's like, that's the one that, and then you feel petty. And that's definitely in this book because me never, like me and that girl, like, I have, like I said, gotten drunk and been like, maybe I should just email her. And like, I've done that and I've never done it. And it's because then I'll say that and be like, you know, at the, the end of the day, I miss her. And then I'll just, you know, the next thought is, but what am I ever going to do? Trust her again? Of course not. You know, like, and it's just, and then also the very thing that made me mad, I would have to betray that value in order to

remedy it, which is what the main character in the book is dealing with. She's like, I'm mad because these people hadn't, like, I had to do everything. I had to do all the work. So what now I have to do the legwork to fix that problem too? When is it their turn to work? like that and that's the thing we fixate on those things that don't have cleaner endings that I know that like NPR had some it was like I like went through a phase or something like binging NPR and like trees talk to each other and also we should have couple's therapy for friendships and it's like I learned those two things in the same day and I was like I can't learn this much in one day yeah but it was it's that though it's the friendships like why don't we're not used to you know talking through things with a third party we're not used to like even a addressing problems. Yeah. Things are just okay or you ignore them or like what, you know, friendships are freaking weird. And they're especially girl friendships, you know?

Yes. Yeah. They're basically relationships. They are. And it's been making me think too. I saw Sally Hepworth here recently talking about Mad Mabel. And it's a book that really is about female friendship in a big way. But she was talking about she just went through a divorce. And it was.

was like she and her friends like rented. I don't know if it was an apartment or a hotel room for like two nights. And they all just spent time with her and they all hung out together. And it was like such a revelation to her that was like friendship love almost, almost inherently. Obviously friendships can end, can last longer than romantic love in a lot of people's lives. And so then it's like those relationships are so important to have.

So of course they would. like shake your world to have them just end. And then yeah, like you're saying, we don't, we don't really have like a guidebook or, and you don't hear people going to friendship therapy. And also treats can talk to themselves to each other,

which is very cool. And probably themselves too. Yeah. I mean, my longest relationship in my life besides with someone I'm blood related to. And even, even so, I've known this person long that I've known my brother.

It's like, I've been best friends with my friend Emily since I was six years old. And we are so close. We talk often enough that we've talked earlier today, and she saw this, like, corny Instagram thing. It was like, me and my longest-since-bestie sent a picture to each other every hour for a whole day to show each other how different our lives are. And we're doing that today because she wanted to do it.

It's so cute. I know. She's like eating tomatoes from her garden. And I'm like, I'm getting ready for a podcast. She's in Asheville, North Carolina. I'm in Los Angeles. We have such different lives. We're so different.

But we've had a relationship for 30 years. Like, that's a really long friendship. That's so much of my life, you know, and it's like, yeah, that's, and it will always be my longest relationship, you know, it just always will be. And so, and then even that relationship, like, we've almost never fought, which is also impressive, probably because we've mostly not lived in the same place, but, um, yeah, but how different we are is so part of the relationship. We know that. We met in Montessori school and we just were like, we would play pretend together. And, you know, and we, like, we've gone from playing pretend together. to like first crushes to like you know like long-term breakups of like she was with someone for six years he was so awful and she kept going back to him and figuring out this

stuff we had to take a friendship break you know and that was like again there's no where I was like I can't watch you do you know I was for three months I've been here on like emergency friend duty because of the pain of this breakup and at this point you're doing it to yourself and I just can't watch it anymore and And so we had to take a break, but it's like that was never going to be the end for us. We met in person. We talked it out. We communicate because I also will never have a healthier relationship than I do with her, you know?

And it's like, yeah, we don't give we don't get friendships enough credit. We act like their second string and they're actually, if anything, maybe first string. So. Well, and to your point, a healthy one is one where you can say, like, I can't keep listening to and watching this right now, but that you're able to come back together later is actually very healthy so yeah and say you know both are fair sides you know like when that happened it's just like even the break in itself i was like i know why you need to do this but then i also need to protect my sanity i'm gonna kill myself i can't listen to this anymore and it's like all was fair it was just like yeah needed some space you know do this one with your other friends

because they've got a different, you've got a different set of things that you get from every friend. Yeah, they have a different level of accumulation with this relationship. Exactly. Although her patience for me, it's like she watched me go back and forth with the same person for 10 years. So I think. Oh, you know. Well, it kind of ties into one of the things I thought was interesting as well is you kind of are able to use the like pause time or time loop to show how, we all remember the same events very differently.

And I think that's always fascinating. So was that really fun playing with that part as well? Yeah, I mean, I think part of there's like, yeah, there's the yours mind and the truth. There was also a really famous episode of the Dick Van Dyke show. I'm like 100 years old. I'm like, I was like this show from the 1960s, where it was both, it was the husband and the wife's perspective

and then the goldfish perspective. who saw how it actually happened. Oh, I love that. Yeah, I mean, like, and I was definitely, I think that the reason I didn't want to just, I don't know, in a perfect world, I would have had, you know, 400,000 words to tell the story and could have, like, gone into more, because I did look at doing what if I did flashbacks from each different person's perspective. Yeah.

I thought about doing lots of different little things because, yeah, that part is interesting to me too, but I thought that what was best is. kind of the flashbacks are third person. The flashbacks are less personal, which again is why I couldn't write the whole thing third person because the personal thing is the thing that matters to me. But yeah, you get the impression that the third person flashbacks in this book

are the truth and how it was, but they're also a little bit tinted by things still. And then, yeah, like you have them, they clearly all have frustrations with each other and things that they need to work through. Yes. I didn't get to play with that. I didn't get to play with the like the concept itself.

That's almost its own high and Kai concept, like show how two people remember something. But yeah, but definitely it's in there too. Yeah. Yeah, I still to this day, who's my voice? One of my favorite examples of that is the affair on showtime.

Showtime, yeah. Oh my gosh. And that's another one where they do it without it feeling like, oh my gosh, we're having to see the same thing again. Like they really are so different that you're like, oh, wow. Now I'm like hooked because I want to see the differences. I mean, sometimes it's, yeah, it's funny. I was just thinking about that show yesterday.

But I had something with my fiance recently. We have a great relationship. We don't fight that much. But this was the most insane thing that ever happened to me. We were in the car. I am me. I am so aware. of what I sounded like, I was just like, oh, look out, there's a, there's, I, and I know that that sounds

like I'm downplaying. We were in the car, and I was like, I was like, oh, look, there's a car coming, just be careful, whatever, said something like that. And he literally, and he's not like a psycho. He doesn't usually do this, but he's just like, well, you screamed it. Like, I just didn't. I just didn't scream it. I said, there's a car. And I just, I felt, and, like, for the next, like, five miles, I was like, are you, so you're telling me? And we just, we had just, we had just experienced, like a time split. It was just like, I trust him. He's so reasonable. Right.

And I know that I definitely sound acerbic sometimes when I don't mean to, but still, I was like, I just simply didn't and I just, but I trust his version of reality too. So it was so bizarre. And that's just one, like it was like one sentence. So it's like imagine how an entire summer, you know,

teenagehood of summers together must be remembered differently. Yeah, and time has past. Yeah. Oh yeah. And you've had time to rewrite it. Yes. Yeah. Getting your version of it. Well, I did mention it earlier. My other question was about the setting. So it is like a setting that really feels like a character with Mercy Island. So what made it kind of the perfect setting for this story? Well, there have never been more versions of a book on my computer than this one. this book started in,

it was initially going to be like set in Hawaii and a girl is marrying like this much older guy and then he croaks the night after like the night of the rehearsal dinner. That was the destination funeral. Very, very different. And it was like, and then it was like a ton of people

there, kind of more a white lotus thing. And then it was going to be set in Provence with these people who went to like the Sarban together. It was going to be so different. I was finished with the book and I called my team and I was like, what if it's set on a winery like in the parent trap?

I like, I have wanted to make this so many different things. It was originally set. This version even was even set in the Keys, in the Florida Keys. And then I, and I love like, and it was kind of bloodline,

you know, like there's, but people who haven't lived in Florida have a different impression of Florida. You know, like I love Florida. Like I have, I have, and somebody out there listening to this will know this.

It's like the, the feeling of on a hot, humid summer, August day walking into a Publix with that wash of icy air and then you get a pub sub. Like, there's just nothing like it. But Florida, it's got a bad reputation and for good reason. So I just like, I don't know if I could do something so loaded. I mean, I live in Indiana, so I feel you. Yeah, yeah. I moved it to, I mean, I love the South. Like, and my my version of the South is very idealized. It's like, it's not based on the problematic parts of course it's based on the Spanish moss that's not the only thing that defines the South it's just an important thing to remember

that's all it's an important thing to acknowledge and that's that's the thing is that I was like well I'm not going to avoid it because of that because it's it like anybody and anything is more than just the one thing totally so it's like and luckily no one has you know it's like when you're writing or in this day and age you're also just like oh my God, let me, how do I not, how do I piss off the fewest number of people? But it's like, I just wanted to, but it's like the Spanish moss and the gas lamps and the rod iron and the crooked old streets and the, the time. Like, I just, I'm just obsessed with that.

And like, my next book is set in New Orleans. And it's just, I mean, just rain walking with a- books in New Orleans. So I'm on board. I just keep ending up reading books in New Orleans this year. So I'm on board whenever that comes out. Well, send me some because, but midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil set in Georgia, like very similar, like the cemeteries and all that. I just, I love that feeling so much.

And I mean, one of the best moody real life moments I ever had was sitting at this bar called fives right across from the original cafe de Mont and having martinis and oysters. And then it started to rain and the doors were open. And I was just like, I could die now. I'm so happy. Yeah. It's just, and you just don't get that anywhere but the South. It's like, I just, a thunderstorm passing through a hot summer day. It's like just the best. So it's being set in this moody, moody atmosphere was like the dream to me. And then, you know, I mean, I envy people who like Ellen Hildebrand writing every book in Nantucket, I'm going to always change it up, but it's always

going to be somewhere that has a heavy mood. I get that. I love, I love a moody atmosphere. I mean, this one's not like intensely moody in the way that we think like dark wise but it's very very atmospheric still yeah it's it's a little bit it's not as it's not as it's not as whimsical as the cover makes it look but it's not as dark as the plot makes it sound and it's not as it's it's somewhere it's everything yeah that's your that's your brand you're like not somewhere in the middle just a little bit of everything yeah it is all things yeah i love that well i i i really love it i really enjoyed it i got to i you read it to me technically i got to listen to it um and so any audiobook fans highly recommend this one via audio um but yeah i don't talk nearly as fast or so shrill

when i narrate i i didn't have nearly as much caffeine as i did today i narrated one audiobook last year um and same i was like wow so it is i have to like like really really slow myself down. That was like the biggest adjustment. Yeah, I still, I was, I was set to do, should record for five days last year and I finished in four and a half. This year I finished in four. It's like I'm still moving quickly, but yeah, I definitely had to slow down and remember that people are trying to catch up with the entire plot at the same time as hearing what I'm saying. And that like plenty of people read it like, I guess I can't. I am a one act. but some people are going to 2x.

Psychopads. I can't do it. Sometimes I wish I could, I guess, because then maybe I would actually read all the books I want to read before I die. But other times I'm like, maybe I don't need to rush through everything. And I just can't do it. My brain feels,

it feels like someone is having to tell me really important information really quickly and needs to run away. So it just makes me feel anxious. It's in the mailbox at the end of Second Mar Lane. Like, no, I don't need that. Well, I'm not in a crisis. The only things I ever double speed is like a TikTok video that's informative or where it's like, I'm a dermatologist and still nobody believes me.

These top eight things at Target. And I'm like, okay, just give me the eight things. But I don't like, but it's still. Yeah. I'm not doing it through comedy videos on TikTok or whatever. It's like, no, that starts to get into like you're going to sprain your brain. I just can't. But it's it's so funny when, like I saw somebody talking about like, the author talks so slowly.

I had to put it on double speed and I'm like, as. If you could hear how many times the director said, hey, Paige, we're going to just want to slow down again. Yes. Like, constantly. Yeah. It's you can't, yeah. Again, you can't make everyone happy. And whoever said that, hopefully they enjoyed it at 2X then because that's an option.

They're chronically online ass enjoyed it at 2X. Yes. Well, I'm very excited for whatever genres you do next. But I will especially be, I love time travel too. So you already have me hooked. Where can people follow you to stay up to date with everything that you're doing? The best place is Instagram because I post everything that happens on there. Like I've got, I'm recording a Genevieve Wheeler audiobook coming up, which is really fun.

And because I told everybody, I'm like, please give me more audiobook work. I could do it for the rest of my life. It's so fun. And yeah. So like all my, all the fun that I like just on Instagram, it's like updates on the book. and stuff and it's like what's coming next and cover reveals, but it's also like a taste of my weird life in L.A. Like my partner

works for Hulu and we get to go to Emmy events and I'm like, oh, I love moaching on an Emmy event and like, here's the whole cast of hacks and here I am with Walton Gaggin's and it's like a crazy and it's just like I'm such a moocher. It's just like I didn't hear this, but I love it. But I also do

I have a podcast myself called Nameless Best Friends that I do with my mom and we, if you're a reader, which assuming you're listening to this, you are. It's like we don't talk about writing on there, really, or not directly, but we have authored friends. So that's, like, most of our guests are authors, or they're just our real life friends, because, like, not everybody needs to be a celebrity. Like, so, like, people we have coming up for that, it's like Sophia Benoit, Blythe-Roberson, let's see, Gabrielle Cawrne, Sophie Cousins, Ella Berman. Like, we have a lot of people coming

on the podcast for this upcoming season. And we have all of those people almost have come on it already. And we did How to Lose the Guy in 10 Days with Sophie Cousins. Like we watch a movie or like a crappy Hallmark movie and we just like laugh. So that

that is just, that's a fun place to spend time. But updates on everything is definitely Instagram and I do, everything's the same on TikTok except it's more of a black hole. So, but it's just look up my name, but it's Farbo. P-H-A-R-B-E-A-U-X.

It's obviously easiest to just type in page or opposite. Yeah. Yes. That sounds like a lot of fun. And at least like the feedback I get, because I have like buddy episodes or like reader episodes on Friday. People like feeling like they're just listening to people have a conversation is even the feedback I end up getting often.

So yeah, I love that parissocial relationship. Totally. Yes. And you have done some great reality TV reels speaking of Paris. social relationships. Oh, yeah. If you guys are reality fans,

you need to go follow her too. Well, my Instagram popped off when I got followers because I started doing Hallmark movies in one minute. And that was like, and it's so funny because a lot of people are like only putting it together now that I'm both of those people. They're like, oh, I just read your book. Wait, you're the person who does the,

oh, hi, Luke. Like that, like, I do, I did like, I do those throughout the fall and the holiday season. And then, yeah, I just did a, Amanda, the from Summerhouse series following all her drama where my gosh and the vocal fry and the like wine you got all of yeah wininess and um yeah the reason that I had to go with West Wilson was because Kyle that's and that was all she said over and over again oh I know it's just on you guys you guys you guys you guys

like um yes no um unrepentant she is yeah she's something else yeah so you can go there for comedy as well it's a quick man you're the crazy old place yes it is very fun over there um and I'll put the link in the show notes for everyone and yeah thank you for coming on I'm excited for what's next thank you so much Kate I'll come on anytime you come on my podcast too yes we need to So,