Bookwild - From Indoctrination to Curiosity: Promise Backlund's Gospel of Lies

Episode Date: May 26, 2026

In this episode, I talk with Promise Backlund about her book Gospel of Lies!  She shares her experience growing up in evangelical Christianity, examining how fear, purity culture, certainty, and religious identity shaped her childhood and adult life. We dive into deconstruction, religious trauma, politics, sexuality, pleasure, and the complicated process of rebuilding meaning, identity, and awe outside of rigid belief systems. Listen to hear about: How faith was woven into every part of both our childhoods—from sunsets to sickness—creating a worldview where God explained everything and fear explained the rest. How fear of hell, thought policing, and religious perfectionism can overlap with anxiety and OCD, especially when introduced during childhood. Deconstructing during the late 2010s and how political shifts exposed tensions between teachings of love and exclusion inside evangelical spaces. An examination of Biblical stories like Adam and Eve, questioning themes of obedience, curiosity, punishment, and whether religious narratives discourage questioning and self-trust. How purity culture, worship environments, and restricted access to secular art shaped identity—and how reclaiming pleasure, curiosity, art, and personal agency became part of healing. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with Promise Backlund, who is the author of Gospel of Lies. She grew up in a very extremely evangelical family and communities, so you can imagine we had a lot to talk about. But here is the synopsis. A psychological civil wars brewing tearing through families and friendships as belief clashes with non-belief. It's today's hyper-polarized climate, evangelicalism, and right-wing extremism that are often seen as one in the same, intensifying the divine. Believers perceive any departure from religious tradition as a personal affront, while non-believers fear the fundamental human rights are at the mercy of the religious majority.

How do you navigate such a taboo topic when the stakes feel impossibly high? Gospel of Lies fearlessly confronts these critical issues head on. This book offers a direct, no-nonsense guide to responding to the full spectrum of Christian rhetoric. From the seemingly innocent, how can you not believe in God when you see the world around you, to the fiery condemnation of, you'll regret this when you're burning in hell. Beyond the debates, Gospel of Lives compassionately addresses the profound trauma that religion and early indoctrination can inflict. It acknowledges that lingering fears and anxieties that often persist long after faith has faded.

Through eight incisive chapters, this book delves into specific doctrines, religious practices, and the author's personal experiences, providing practical responses and empowering insights. So you can tell right off the bat, like, this was a little bit. the book that clicked with me. I was highlighting so much. I was like, yep, yep, yep, I remember that. I remember that. I remember that. And we just had a really great conversation because of it. I mean, it is sharing and trauma. So you never like inherently want that to be the thing that you can connect with someone on. But if it is something that you've experienced, it's nice to know someone else who's been through it. So that being said, let's hear from Promise.

Well, I am super excited to dive into the gospel of lies, but I do always want to get to know a little bit about you before we get started, which after reading this, I feel like I know a lot about you. But what was your journey to writing? And like, I think a lot of this book, it was just like needing to talk about the things you'd been through. But did you ever, like, want to be an author before? Or did it all kind of start when you started questioning this stuff? I've definitely always been writing. And so I think part of me hoped one day I would be an author. I probably would have thought I would write fiction or even just poetry. I've been writing songs my whole life. And so if you had told me 10 years ago, this is what I would be writing about. I wouldn't believe you. I would be absolutely shocked. But I wouldn't be shocked to hear that I wrote something. You know, I've been writing. And I took, I pulled so much. I pulled so much. of this book from things that I've been writing about over my journey, over my process. Right. Yeah. That makes sense. Well, I guess we can kind of start from the beginning otherwise. So this book covers like the indoctrination and how harmful, especially really extreme evangelical Christianity is and how you grew up very much in it, all the listeners. have heard how I how I did as well. So can you kind of talk about like literally growing up in

that space and like how much you believe it because you're a kid and it's all that you've ever known? Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's the part that a lot of people who didn't grow up this way can never fully grasp. I, you know, I have people that will say, well, like, how long have you been a Christian. And, you know, technically they'll probably consider the time when I was five and I really said the sinner's prayer to be when I became a Christian. But to me, I was a Christian my entire life. I was, as soon as I could talk, I was saying, I love you Jesus. You know, they, they were coaching me to say these things and to believe these things, they, meaning my family and friends and our community. And so it was a part of who I was. It was my identity. Everything circled back to this God belief.

would go out on a walk and I would be, you know, excited about seeing a rainbow or seeing a bird or a butterfly or something and it's automatically, isn't that special that God made that for you? Like, everything was pointed back to God. And then on the other side of it, which I think compounded this belief and made it more intense and more real, if there was something negative, we were the kind of family that was spiritually warring against it. So, you know, if I was feeling sick, well, you need to just pray and command the spirit of sickness to leave your body right now. So then I related everything bad or scary or negative to the demonic. And I had to fight that off. So it was it was a part of every single thing. It was how I viewed the entire world. It was how I viewed the little tiny

things and the big things too. Yeah. When you were talking about that, how like, also like everything was within the context of God. It was like it's kind of an ongoing joke. in my adulthood because like literally any time there was like a sunset my family was like how does anyone look at that and not believe in God? This is this is totally my family as well or like at the beach and there's the beach sunset yes and it's always beautiful I mean my grandparents have an incredible beach condo with a really great view and it's every like I can't believe God did this for us it's like wow I feel bad for all the people he didn't make a nice sunset for it today but we got one exactly yes we were very much just that family and it was

it so much leaned toward which you also talk about some experiences with it leaned so much toward like look at all these non-believers because the way ours was like the way it was always framed was the like how can you look at this and not believe in god like about so many different things and it's like, well, maybe just because some people interpret things differently. Right. Yeah, I think that was also part of what helped the indoctrination is exactly what you said. You have people, you have adults repeating out loud over and over again, how could someone not believe? Like, of course this means that. So you don't sit in question like, why would I think that I should credit a God for this sunset? You're just like, no, of course I would because otherwise you're stupid if you don't think that. So I'm

not even going to question it. Yes, exactly. The other thing that's really prevalent, especially with children growing up in it and you touch on it is hell is like one of the most convenient ways to really get someone to obey, believe stuff, all of that. And you cover multiple things in the book. Like there are inconsistent descriptions of it in the Bible. there's like been just like the modern interpretation of it as well so it's like even what is this hell like it changes all the time um but when you were mentioning how like you would even like at night like remind Jesus that you believed in him and that you loved him because like what if something happened to you and he wasn't sure and then you were in hell I hadn't thought about that and forever

and I would do the exact same thing. Like maybe not always the same words, but like if I, same thing, like if I was anxious, which I didn't even have the word for that at the time. In the middle of the night, I would be like praying and like, please God, like protect me from what's happening and just like so, just so intense the fear of hell. So can you kind of talk about like your experiences with that and how it's manipulative? Yeah. I mean, from a very young age, I was deeply aware of the threat of hell. I don't think I could have told you then what I thought it was, especially, like you said, it's so inconsistent. And the different adults in my life, different grandparents believed it was different than different parents, you know? Right. But I was, I knew it was bad. I know I knew I didn't want to go there. And I knew that it was a place that people could go to. And I have a lot of Christians now that will respond and they'll say, well, that's, you know, that's wrong theology. You shouldn't have.

been afraid of hell if you were a one again believer. But I was five, six, seven, eight years old. Like, I what do I know about theology? I'm just lying awake at night. And I even remember thinking, I didn't put this part in the book, but I remember vividly thinking, I can't tell anybody that I'm afraid I might be going to hell. Because then they'll know that I'm not doing a good job at whatever it was I was scared of. I would yell at a sister or I would, you know, have an angry thought, oh, I hate my mom or something. And then instantly like, oh, my God, I have to pray and I have to ask God for forgiveness. And I have to make sure I'm not going to hell.

And I think a lot of that fear and anxiety at night was how to do with my OCD, although which came first, the chicken or the egg kind of thing. And a lot of it is this existentialism that I think kids, I worked professionally in child care for like 15 years. And so I witnessed this even in kids that didn't grow up in religion. There is like these existential questions that you stay up at night thinking about, especially certain kids more than others. But when you give them hell now to latch on to, when you give them answers and they're really scary and they're not just like, yeah, life is injured. We don't have that many answers.

We don't have this. But you tell them it's this and it's really scary and it's your fault and it's your problem to deal with. I think it's really abusive at the end of the day. It was tormenting to me. It was worse than any like demonic attack. that was actually described to me. It was my own thoughts warring against me that I was battling as a child. Yes. I also, you talk about the most common like diagnoses that go with this or

PTSD and OCD or complex PTSD even. I was diagnosed with that the second I started therapy. I was 20 years old. So it was that and generalized anxiety like there's there's all kinds of stuff. But OCD is an anxiety disorder itself. Some people don't realize that. But I started, I had to start kind of like mining the facts that like I to this day still say it's pretty religious or like religious OCD. Like it's very related to that. I also really related to your sentence though. You have like a sentence in there where you're like and who knows if like what I was exposed to pushed me towards this or if I was maybe always going to have a version of OCD and because of the environment, then the religion kind of got in there.

And I have thought about that too, because there is the whole, it's kind of the nature versus nurture is even like that conversation. But the point is, even if it was kind of there already, like genetically or something, it's absolutely exacerbated by living in an environment. When you brought up, like, did I have the wrong thought? That would, because there's a, there's a, Bible verse that says like if you even wish harm against your brother or it may even say murder like you may as well have murdered him. Right. So then you're like thought policing yourself because you've

now also been told even your thoughts can send you to hell essentially. Yeah, it's thought policing, which is yes. One of the worst things I can possibly think of. Yes. And it's so controlling. Like I also remember like sitting next to my parents and I was so convinced. because kind of like the omnipotence of God, I also kind of translated into my parents. And I think some of that was also because they would also do the like, my dad was the pastor of a very small church and a very small town, like maybe 4,000 people in the town. And so they would remind me like everywhere you go, like all of those adults know who you are and they know that you're a pastor's kid. This is how I grew up. be and you need to be the best example for Jesus to them and you should remember that if you're

doing something wrong, they're going to tell us. So it was like I thought there was just omnipotent power around me all the time. And I got to a point where I was like sitting next to them on the couch and I would start trying to think really bad things to see if they would react. I'm like, they probably can hear my thoughts, can't they? And they never did, but like I still kept trying, which is also like a very OCD thing too. Totally. But, you. But, you. Yeah, yeah. It's fascinating the way you approach that. Like was it maybe there and it got exacerbated or either way it made it worse. Yeah. And the worst part, I think, is that you're not encouraged to get help because you're actually rewarded. That's what you're supposed to be doing. You're supposed to be warring against your thoughts. You're supposed to be feeling turmoil if you think something bad. You're supposed to be policing yourself at all times. And actually, you should be able to get skills to regulate yourself and you should be able to speak with a therapist and somebody who can help you find some inner peace.

And that's one of the many reasons why leaving is what let me finally feel like, oh my God, this is the piece that I was promised. If I've thought policed myself, turns out the opposite is true. Yes. But it's funny when you said that thing about seeing if they could read your thoughts, I remember being so scared of that. We believed in the prophetic. And so we would have like prophets come through. And every time there was like a guest prophetic speaker,

I would be sitting in the audience, you know, the pastor's daughter, so scared that a prophet was going to like read my mind. Like I didn't even know what it could be. I wasn't doing anything. But like they're going to see something bad in me and talk about it public. Like and nobody ever said anything or saw anything. So but I was scared of it. I was terrified of it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, and fear is just, fear is one of the best ways to control people in any space. And I, you brought up how people will tell you, well, that's just bad theology. I had that highlighted too. I like just kept sending highlights to my husband. I was like, oh my gosh, this is, is this play about us? The, I just completely lost where I was headed with that. Oh, I've had that now because I also live in a place in America or, I mean, a lot of people

consider themselves Christians even if they're not like extreme but I am in a very very very very red state and a lot of people I have gotten that responds where and I and some of them are well-meaning I understand that there are some who will say I'm so sorry that that's the theology you grew up with that was just bad theology and then sometimes they'll go on to tell me like here's why we think like it doesn't matter that God created you imperfect and then got angry at you for being imperfect and then had to die and make you feel bad for being how he made you. Like they tried to explain it to me still. And I'm like, that's still not clicking. It's not helping. It's not really doing anything for me. Yeah. Which kind of brings me to where you, you kind of, I think you and I may have been deconstructing

around the same time as what blew my mind too. And you said 2016 and 2017, that was, I don't know if that was exactly it but I had like a period of like 18 months that was like as you know is very like existentially scary because there's a part of you that's like I don't think I believe in this but I've only lived this for 20 years. So you kind of got to that point as well and what's interesting about this whole conversation too is you started thinking like the other part of Christianity is love one another take care of the strangers. take care of the poor, take care of the widows, like love. That's like this other part that they also push really hard in the context of like really

scary discriminatory fear. So you similar to me got to a point where you're like, how are quote unquote Christians supporting certain politics that do not reflect love? And that kind of started to be confusing to you too. so can you kind of talk about that period of your life? I think there's a lot of us that 2016 started stirring some things up. I had already started progressing a lot of my views on the world and therefore my politics. I, for the first time in my life, had some friends that weren't Christians and some that were

Christians and they were gay or they were Buddhists or, you know, people that were different than me that grew up very differently had different perspectives. And I have always been a people person. I just love people and I'm so curious about people and their stories and their background and finding shared humanity, even in people that are very different than me. And so I couldn't help, but like love these people. They were lovable. They were amazing. They were great. They were good friends and neighbors and community members. And that helped progress me very quickly. and I did the thing where I cherry picked the parts of my religion that could back that progress so that I didn't have to lose it.

Of course, this is what Jesus wants me to do. This is where I'm going to progress. And I'm glad I did that. And then I watched in 2016 right around then Donald Trump come on the scene. And the church I was in ministry school at was holding a worship service to say. celebrate to him winning the presidency. All of these prophets that I grew up around were talking about how Jesus Christ himself sent Trump to us and he's going to save the world and all this stuff. And meanwhile, I'm hearing the stuff that Trump has been saying and remembering that I wasn't

even allowed to watch the apprentice growing up. It was inappropriate, you know? Yes. Yeah. So, you know. He was inappropriate. All around. Yes. And all of the, you know, the quotes and stuff that we all know, from his and then I remember him making fun of mocking that the reporter I think it was. A reporter. Yes. He was disabled. And I was just trying to understand how these people that I had looked to as moral and spiritual guides were suddenly worshipping this guy.

It seemed like they were worshipping him. Somebody who most certainly did not represent family values. He's been married a bunch of times. Meanwhile, Obama had this one amazing wife, two kids. kids, like, no scandals. And I'm like, wait, but he was terrible. And the tan suit, exactly. It's that darn tan suit. And then this guy, we're supposed to think is like the second coming of Christ. It made no sense to me. And so my, what happened then, still, I wasn't going to let go of my faith. I was like, oh, well, these leaders must be deceived. They must be falling for

something. And so I am going to grow up and be responsible for my own faith. And I'm, I'm going to pursue God like I never have before. I don't need leaders to tell me how to do. I can just like sit in my prayer closet and, you know, try to get closer to God. I'm going to learn the Bible like I never have before. And I also was in a place where I really wanted to be able to convince people around me of the gospel. So I was just like, great, let's get into it. And that kind of started the process that ultimately ended up going the opposite direction I thought it was. Yes. there's another part of that part of your story that I related to where you were saying like at one point you were like I don't believe in God in a Jesus way but like I believe in like the universe and one I've been guilty of saying that in the last year even and I'm not defending myself either but I think in terms of like spirituality itself being a part of being a human I think there's some stuff that that does feel like a spiritual moment for me but it really isn't translating into anything like yes i still believe in god but i have i have gone through that or even when i'm still having conversations with some people who are still very christian that'll maybe still be something i i will occasionally say probably too but the other thing that happened for me and i don't know if it did for you because i know you

went to did you go to seminary is that what it also said i went to ministry school, which was basically like a worse version of seminary school because it was kind of the wild west of learning about God in the Bible. And it was Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry to be specific, which is as wild as it sounds. Yeah. So yeah, something kind of like seminary, but weirder. Yeah. I then only recently started talking to people who have left, evangelicalism but maybe they still believe in Jesus or believe in God. And I've had some of them on here and a separation of church and hate by John Fugel saying was really, it was really powerful read for me because it was the first time, kind of like you said though, you get to a point where

you're like, I think I can convince these people of like a more inclusive or kind theology, maybe even if I don't believe it as a theology anymore. I had a phase where I thought I was going to be able to convince these people who in general, I think are good people. And then I start learning some stuff. So separation of church and hate is a book for anyone who hasn't read it where it like does a good job of like showing like, by the way, this isn't even biblically accurate. Right. The way that especially politics have gone in America. And I was like, this is going to be amazing. I can read this. He even poses it as like, this will help you have conversations possibly. Like if they're going to throw or if why not throw the Bible back at them essentially.

So I got really into that. But the thing overall that started to happen for me is that in some ways, I like Jesus' approach to life, even if I don't think of him as divine. And I don't know if any of that happened for you. But in kind of that studying, were you also having some of those moments where you're like, well, I do agree with these things. But like, to me, it started to kind of be like the same way. that like MLK to me. I'm like, oh, I really like these tenants that he talks about. Right. And so maybe as a

social activist, I understand Jesus a little bit. Not that you have to agree with that, but did any of that kind of happen for you? Yeah. Well, first of all, I love John also and I can't wait to read his book. I've kind of been on like a book break while I've been focusing on this and now that's on my list. But I love that because I think that that's a really important way to meet some people is you kind of do have to meet them where they're at. And I think that's great. for me I think that I just it all fell apart

it's like looking behind the curtain and seeing like if this is not the great and all powerful wizard about this is just a person and for me Jesus didn't end up being that cool which is shocking I would have I really would have thought that he would be

because I was so I was one of those girls that was like Jesus is my boyfriend like Jesus is the best. I was absolutely obsessed. grew up watching all the smiling Jesus movies and and really had not. Yeah, Jesus was the good cop between Jesus and God for me. So I had, I really thought that I was going to hold on to Jesus more than I have. And I just can't bring myself. I think I learned enough conflicting, contradicting things about him. True. That just, you know, doesn't fit my style. Kind of like.

like I read different philosophers. I'm like, yeah, this one is not that interesting to me or different historical characters. Not that interesting to me. And I've really lost Jesus in this. And it's felt freeing for me. But I fully understand people that still are like, no, no, no, I really, like, I get some of these things from Jesus. And I appreciate the teachings and I can still hold on to Jesus. I don't find anything wrong with that at all. It didn't work for me. And I had to kind of like, stop judging myself for that too even as an atheist because I know a lot of atheists who are like Jesus is super cool though and I would have like the people pleaser in me would love to be able to like sit down with my Christian friends and bond with them over how much we like Jesus but I'm just kind of like

I don't know he's not the thing I had made up in my head he's not this like perfect amazing cool smiling Jesus figure that like sees me and knows me and so I think that it felt like a real death of the Jesus that I believed in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. There's, well, and you even bring up, like, I definitely agree with you too. It's still something where it's like some of it, I'm like, we do need someone metaphorically

flipping tables where churches are, have become profitable. It's like those little things, but I think similar to what you're saying with philosophers, I'm definitely not like, oh, I want to hang out. with Jesus. But it's like it got to a point where I could look at him as a historical figure and kind of like any like frame of thought when you're like reading it from someone else, you can kind of be like, oh, well, I do agree with that. But I don't agree with this. And to your point, the cursing the fig tree is so, so weird. Like I can't get on board with that. That doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah. There's so many little things like that. And of course, the Christian response is,

He was, it was a metaphor. It was symbolic of this or whatever. And it's just like, could you not have come up with a better way to teach that? Yes. I don't know. The Jesus that I think I really felt attached to was a Jesus that wouldn't have harmed anyone or anything, not even a victory. So having to go back and it's not like I didn't know that story super well, but like going

back kind of with the rose glasses off, I was just like, oh my gosh, this doesn't even match the character of him that I had created in my head at all. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then for me, there's the part that like the Bible wasn't even written or collected and put together until like 300 years after he'd been crucified. And then John Fugoseng has a pretty funny, funny bit about like, now that's a special kind of cultural appropriation for the Roman Empire to murder him. And then 300 years later be like, you know what? I think we could control. people in this story. Yeah. So it's like, I just, I just feel like there's so much lost in translation, just like I would never read fiction that was like 2,000 years old, or any nonfiction that was 2,000 years old and think that like what was written there was completely correct. Yeah. Well, and to your point, even fiction from that long ago, it's so hard to, it's so culturally irrelevant at this time that you you truly do have to be a scholar and or just like super passionate

about that time period. I think to get much out of it. I really respect the different biblical scholars that are out there doing the work that they do. But I couldn't do it. Like it's not interesting to me and you have to yeah, you know, be a scholar of history. You have to really know your stuff to get something. And I love the things that they offer and I'm thankful that they write books and help us like, here, here's something you can get. Here's, but for me sitting there, like, so the fact that we've just been given this Bible and then we've been told, like, find meaning in it. Of course we've all landed on very different places with it. Of course, there's no, like, objective to it. And yet people are claiming that there is because there's no,

we don't know what we're reading when we read this thing. Um, no, which I point, you know, I have that section where I have like the little Bible stories you may not have heard of or you may not remember. And there's so many weird ones that, of course, like in context or in context of history, probably make a bit more sense or slightly less jarring. You know, you think about some things from our time period that maybe 500 years from now, a thousand years from now would be really weird and hard to understand. But it's like we were given this for now. The supposedly all knowing God was like, this is relevant forever. And yes, it's just kind of weird. Yeah, it is. Well, I guess going to the literal beginning of the Bible, I'm obsessed with your

Instagram username, which is Eve, was framed. And I was, when, when your publisher reached out to me and like, send me that link, I was like, oh, we're going to vibe. Oh, yay. So you also, you dive into that story, which is really interesting. There are also even like two different versions of this Adam and Eve story or the beginning of creation, even in the Bible. Right. But one of the things that I've always struggled with with original sin and like you're talking about just like truly like blaming it all on Eve and like telling us that this is why women have painful periods and painful childbirth. Like it's a lot. That's a lot.

Um, but what was always difficult for me was, okay, so God created them. And sure, you also dive into free will, but in within the context, he gives them free will, um, put something in the middle of a garden and says like, you can't have it. Right. You just can't have it. Um, and then banishes them from paradise because of an apple or a pomegranate, however you want to, again, historically. contextualize it. Yes. And you talk about it too, but I very much was like, but God, if God loved us, if God had all this power, if God made us, one, how does the punishment fit the crime of eating

an apple? Yeah. And two, it almost feels like a trap. And to your logical point that Eve feels kind of framed. So what, what, what happened that kind of helped you, like, see that story that way? For me, it was the story of Adam and Eve was one of the few biblical stories that I actually liked and found interesting. I grew up reading the Bible. I was always reading the Bible. I was watching, you know, veggie tales. And like I said, the smiling Jesus movies and everything we watched went back to Bible stories as well. And yet, I still was not, it was like, okay, yes, I get it. Like it's like the ABCs for me growing up. I was excited the rare chance we would get to watch like the sound of music or something

that wasn't a Bible story. But the one that stuck with me even after I stopped believing was the story of Adam and Eve. There was something about that one that I, I don't know if liked is the right word for it, but it's still like registered as something interesting to me and more ethereal and fantastical than, you know, the later story is when it's like Moses and a burning bush and like Noah and an arc and stuff where I'm just like, okay. And so much of that was because we were talking about a woman. And she had a starring role in this story, which doesn't happen that

often in the Bible, at least not to that extent. And so when I was losing my faith and deconstructing, for lack of a better term, that story turned into kind of a source of empowerment for me because it had been something that had kept me so fearful and scared and judging myself. Like, okay, the sin of the world entered in through a woman. And now it was like, no, no, no, knowledge came in. Like this was the very first story is them trying to make you terrified. I can't assert that I know what they were trying to do, the authors of that. in my retelling of it, it's like this story is trying to convince you that knowledge is something

you should be afraid of. And in my retelling and my rethinking of that story, I really started to see it more as the story of a heroine and how she was like her curiosity went beyond blind obedience, her desire to actually know, like, and her taking in other sources, like this serpent who was like, that's not true. And she was willing to risk her life. She thought there was a chance she might die. And she was like, but I would know everything. Like why is that bad? Which to this day, I want to know. And I've never wanted to know anything. Right. Like I want to know everything. And I want to know why a God, if it's all loving, all powerful, all knowing, why would it have a problem with an equal? Why would that bother it?

Because I think about like if I were two, Christians love to throw out this like, well, if you had children, then you'd understand. If I had a child and I had the option to give them all the knowledge I had and more, I would do that. I would not damn then. And every, right, and every generation after them be like, now you are a source of sin because you got as smart as me. Isn't that crazy? It's insane to me. And it's to the punishment not fitting the crime. I know we don't really know what ages they were, but it's like these two people living alone in a garden at least. Who supposedly knew nothing yet. Exactly.

So like we can we can mentally call them toddlers, like is where I was headed with that. If one, if it reminds me of the, my mom was so proud of this, that like psychological, I can't even remember what it's called, but like a test where like you put like two marshmallows in front of your kid. and you tell them you're going to go do something. And this is the 90s. This was before like it was happening on TikTok with like dogs and food, which is funny. Yes. They put two marshmallows in front of you and they say like if you don't eat these, then you will have more later, which also is very like, act this way on earth and you'll have a better life in heaven. And she was so proud of the fact that she was like, I did that with Kate and she sat there the whole time.

But my brother didn't. he ate it and but you think of that example and i i don't have kids either but if i think about having children and doing that with them and thinking like oh i'm going to kick you out of the house because you ate something right doesn't even i can't make that uh comp i can't comprehend that at all and that's still less of a punishment then you're getting banned from paradise for all of eternity and now every single human that ever lives will suffer because of it yeah it's crazy and yet now we're supposed to think this god is just and merciful because sometime later he sends his only son to act as blood sacrifice because obviously that's the answer to this problem

the fruit snack problem yes and then it translates into what you're talking about like it's another story from the Bible that's telling you like don't be curious don't don't be interested don't want to know things. Like you're not, you don't need to. Like, just go with what we're telling you. That's like all you need to do, essentially. And, yeah, when I started really thinking, like, I don't think I believe in this. It was when I realized, I think that was like the only way my parents were even parenting.

Like, it's kind of lazy to even do your parenting that way. Right. Right. Like, oh, you should be afraid of hell. you should be afraid of like God being angry with you when we would like mess up which this isn't bragging it was rare my we were scared in that household we were not i really not making bad choices very often but when we would um it would my dad would come in and would say you've disrespected your mother your father and your god this is over like getting a bee

instead of an A at school. And you're like, oh my gosh, I'm going to go to hell because I'm not trying hard enough. That's so heavy. It's crazy. Yeah, I think, I mean, it's lazy. For sure. It's, it's like parents who, I've seen this in some of my work in child care where a parent will be like, you need to stay in bed or else the boogeyman's going to come out of your closet. And it's like, that's so, why would you do that to your kid and it's so much worse when now you base your entire like you actually believe this too and you're using this threat against your child and um that's why religious trauma people will respond me and be like religious trauma oh what you were forced to go to church a couple of times first of all I was a pastor's kid so I was a church every day but also that's not what we're talking about when

we talk about religious trauma it's it's traumas that possibly would have already occurred in our household, but then they are made so much worse because there's a, like you just said, you've disappointed your father, your mother, and your God. I mean, that is, it's already sad and scary to hear like you've disappointed your father and your mother, but then to hear and your God, it adds, you know, to me, it made my trauma growing up significantly heavier than I think it would have felt otherwise. Yeah. Well, I'm, I bet for you too. The other thing is, like pastors are closer to God. So then when your dad is a pastor, you're also spiritually scared of him too.

For sure. I mean, I think I was lucky in that my dad was kind of one of the cool ones and he was less intense in some of the ways. But then that almost made it scarier because I felt like God was scarier than my dad. and so I needed to like, like it was good. Kind of like the good, bad cop thing with Jesus and God again. And so my dad was kind of reminding me like, this is intense. And then I didn't have a lot of guidance when it came to how should I view God when it comes to this or when it comes to that.

I would have like a grandparent saying this, a mom saying this, a dad saying that. And so that already helped me see like, this is so subjective. I didn't realize it yet. But it's like to some, God is this really scary threatening thing, which I had a family member that would use that to threaten and scare me. And then to some like my dad, my dad was like, oh, look, God's rewarding us because we got, you know, the newspaper just before we're about to leave to go to the coffee shop. So that's God. You know, it's just like constant whiplash, like emotional manipulation when you're hearing this from all different. I don't know if you relate to that, like having different inconsistent.

Yes. It's almost like that kind of makes you believe it more almost in a way because you can, you can extrapolate from each person. Yeah. From each person. What, yeah. Well, that must be the true thing and that must be. And that must not be right. So I'll take from this person instead. Yeah, totally. The other thing I really connected with you, talk about how worship music and lights and theatrics. It makes, you feel a certain way. And I remember there was, I think it's fine if I say this, in one of the churches that we were growing up, the choir director, which is such a cliche even now, came out as gay. Of course. And they got divorced. But his wife and son, he was a year older than me, stayed in the church.

And so sometimes when we were in Sunday school, he would have a lot of questions naturally about like why, like, why is my dad going to hell essentially? Which like I, even when I look back on it now, it like hurts my heart so much that I was even kind of a part of it. It's not like I was telling him that. But it's like there have been multiple times in my deconstructing journey where I've wanted to like, call people I don't even talk to anymore and like apologize on behalf of my dad. And I know that's not necessary. It's also a very Christian thing that I feel the need to repent. So I always remind myself like, it's okay. I don't think everyone's thinking about like, oh, Kate didn't tell her dad to stop saying things. And even if they did, that's okay. But he was really dealing with that a lot.

And so there's still so much of that. There's so much interpretation of the text. that is oppressive to the LGBTQ community. And you cover that as well too. So what was it like kind of being like, wait, why are we hating them so much? I mean, I grew up, I don't know about you, but I didn't even know that gay or queer people exist. It was a while before I did, yeah. Yeah, I had no idea. And then, like, I think one of my first times of,

realizing like oh that's a gay person is when it was somebody we knew like at some family event or something and they had a boyfriend and I was like wait what and I you know I don't think I had time to hate like that's one of the positive things is because I didn't grow up like being taught the the horrible propaganda I didn't really have much luckily obviously in my like teens and 20s then I would start hearing like no no no it's a sin it's an abomination and all of that but I was already trying to progress that because again I love people and so I was like there's no way like the Jesus I know in love there's no way he wouldn't love these people and surely you know he'll forgive them like he's forgiving all of us and um but then I also remember like around that time I told you when I was

starting to progress my my views um is when the equal the marriage equality act went through and I was so excited at that point I was I think I just had let go of that thought I was like I'm not going to it's not my business if it's a sin or not so I'm just not going to worry about this like it's not my business and I'm happy for these people I have friend I had I had friends at the time that were gay and I was like they can get married why should we be upset about that if these people are lovetyly you know the family values and marriage and they and they want to adopt and all this stuff like we should be all for that of course I found my way to fit it into the evangelical value system. Right. And I remember, um, calling a family

member out of excitement. And, you know, this was a very religious family member. And I remember being shocked because they were super excited too. They were like, you know what? Honestly, I'm so excited about this also. It just feels like good news, doesn't it? And that was such a cool, like, I remember thinking like, this is the Holy Spirit. Like, this is how we're supposed to feel about fellow humans and be excited for each other with, you know, things like this. It was really like the social justice part of me that was like, yes, human rights. Good. Yes.

But then I remember watching that family member go back on some of that. And, you know, with Trump and all of the evangelical rhetoric. And that's when I think I really started understanding, oh, my gosh, people really, really believe that queer people shouldn't have equal rights. and even that some of them shouldn't exist at all. Yes. That was really, really difficult for me. And then in the ministry school, there was so many people where they would confess their sins and say that they were struggling with homosexuality.

And then I watched them basically be forced into conversion therapy and things like that. And that was really hard to watch too because I could not, I could not get like how I felt about it all. I could not get the love that I had for them in my heart to like to change. And so I went with, I must just be Jesus's love for them. Um, and yet some of those people still, I know are stuck in in marriages that they don't want to be in.

They are not allowed to be who they have said that they are. And I believe them. And yet they're told that they have to repress that. So I don't know if that really answers your question. But it was like a, it was a slow burn of learning how awful. some religious people are about that. And I do feel like in the last few years, they've escalated that, especially towards trans people as well, where that wasn't even necessarily a topic for me

growing up. And now it's become a big thing that they're terrified and super hateful about. And it has happened in multiple countries and civilizations that get extreme or fundamental. there's a really good book called The Lilac People by Milo Todd that talks about two trans people's experiences as the Nazis were coming into power

and the same rhetoric and so there's like across time there's this proof that like when the mainstream masses want to like get people riled up about something to get them to vote

they tend to go after a definitely gay people as well, but especially trans people. And historically, like historians seem to kind of look at it through the lens of they're a very vulnerable population already. And so they're not going to be able to do much to protect themselves against it anyway. And then the flip side is they're such a small, it's not that there are not many trans people, but they are such a small percentage of most populations. Right.

and just get shit on when people want to get control. Yeah. It's just terrible. It's a really easy target. And I think that's why it's been picked by this, like, religious right group because they are vulnerable and they are easy to pick on. And it usually doesn't cost them much to discriminate against them. So that's why it's so easy.

But it's also this, like, false, like, performative, like, we're for the nuclear family kind of thing. and anybody that doesn't fit under their hierarchy, they need you to, they need to understand exactly who you are and they need you to be a man that acts like this and talks like this and has this and that. They need you to be a woman that's like this. They need you to be a child. Like they put you in your category because they need God at the top. And then you have the people that take advantage of that. That umbrella. Yeah. Yep. And they come in. They're like, and I'm working with God. So now you're all under me. And currently that's looking like politicians and billionaires.

that have now taken advantage of this hierarchy system and why they're terrified of equality because you can't rule over an equal population. Yeah. Which, okay, I have two different directions. I could go from there. First, you also talk about how biblical marriage was never just one man and one woman. And that is the obsession right now. But can you kind of talk about how biblical marriage was always more than just that?

Oh, yeah. It was, I mean, first and foremost, it was property ownership. Women were property. And that's why even things like virginity as a concept exist. It was its property exchange and it's men. And they were so young is what people also don't think about. Absolutely. Right. Virginity was a much more common thing too. Exactly. And age of consent wasn't a thing because consent wasn't a thing. It didn't matter what these women wanted. It didn't even occur to most of these women to like have a say in this because that was the culture. That's how it went. And so this idea of biblical marriage, when you have David with all of his, you know, wives, you have Solomon, you have, everybody was having concubines and multiple wives. And, you know, this wife can't get pregnant. So let me bring in this woman. Let me, you know, biblical marriage is nothing like what we have today, which would be romantic, really.

relationships. Marriages in the Bible were property contracts. They were not viewed as this romantic thing. Aside from, we have like this love affair in Song of Solomon where that's a whole like other crazy thing in the Bible that I remember reading as a teenager and being like, oh, am I allowed to read this right now? It's basically smart in the middle of the Bible. It is absolute smart, yes.

So those are the examples of this quote, biblical marriage. Right. And now, you know, purity culture has tried to turn it into a right-wing dream, basically. Yes. And so then we get into this actual repression that is rampant and very damaging. I had all kinds of hang-ups that were difficult to break. Even to your point, I can't remember if we talked about this already or if it's just in your book where you talk about. about even when you leave, even when mentally you've kind of decided like this isn't for me anymore,

there are still things that have been like hard-coated in your body. Yeah. That takes so much time to get them completely out. So can you kind of talk about the investigation of purity culture that you also kind of did? Yes. Yeah, it's really weird because you can logically move past things, but your body will hold on to stuff. And a lot of people, I won't trauma dump here, but a lot of people have very similar stories to me where, like, you grow up in a, quote, biblical marriage where you're supposed

to submit to your husband. That means you're supposed to be available to him at all times. That means there's no, like, marriage, like your wedding day is consent at that point. Well, that brings in all kinds of trauma. I also grew up where I, just to give you like some of my background, I was given the the talk at a Rebecca St. James concert just before the concert. And she comes out and then sings, like, wait for me. For those who aren't familiar, Rebecca St. James was this Christian pop star, you know, who would sing about waiting for your husband. So that was the context of the talk and how it was given to me. And I was never taught that women can experience pleasure at all. That was not taught to me. So I never thought of intimacy.

as something other than like what I owed to a man. And it was also a tool to prevent him from sinning. And that was my responsibility was to basically like offer myself so that he's not living a life of sin. And then I ended up in a marriage where he starts living a life of sin. And at 19 years old, I'm blamed for his issues. Meanwhile, I'm being traumatized by them. So unfortunately, my story is not that rare.

And I am super grateful for therapy. That helped so much. Having really healthy, positive relationships has helped. Having experiences for myself that were like where I was in control and not like in something because I'm committed or it's the right thing to do or whatever. That was really helpful. But also just non-sexual things, getting to know. myself like taking myself out to see a movie or taking myself out for dinner and a drink and like just being with myself alone and getting to know myself was a huge part of that because I had to

figure out like what I want and what I like in life and what brings me happiness and joy and pleasure and it's an ongoing process I think it will always be an ongoing process and now thankfully it's like a cool ongoing process like this is a cool like it's my relationship with myself and then how that translates to being with my partner and all of that. But that's one of the, I think one of the really sad things about religious trauma is how it tries to attack one of the really nice parts about life, which is pleasure, whether that's like in the bedroom or not. It tries to take over those things.

And because I don't know about you, but it wasn't just that sexual pleasure was demonized, but it was like this idea of pleasure itself, like even if you're just doing something for yourself just for fun. Like I said, like going to a movie just for yourself or, you know, sitting there enjoying an ice cream or something. It all had, or a sunset. It had to relate back to God somehow. I wasn't allowed to just like participate in pleasure for what it is. And that started with purity culture. Yeah. Yes. You, yeah, we were, I think you even talk about that. we are very much in the world but not of the world family um which is just it still makes me laugh now because of how absurd it seems to me at this point but like we didn't have cable TV we I didn't

get to see movies like a lot of what you were just talking about there is reminding me like part of why I'm so grateful for books fiction and nonfiction movies TV shows is it helped me so much when it had all been kept, like, I didn't even get to listen to radio that wasn't Christian radio. So, like, my friends knew all these songs and I just did not know anything. Yeah. And so then, like, basically going to college was then when I was like, oh, like that 70 show was on Netflix. Netflix had kind of become a streamer finally. And I'm like, this is what it's like to binge a show. Like, not a show that I, there's obviously a lot of problematic actors involved and stuff we know now. But at the time, I was like, oh my gosh, it was like the first show I ever binged. I ended up,

I got to have a single dorm, coincidentally because of my asthma. So I had to have one that had like an actual air conditioning unit on it. So similarly, I'm having all this time by myself. And I'm like, I love being with myself. And I love other stories and other people. It was like, it was like learning. It was like a whole new world that had opened up, basically. And it was. those it was a lot of that that helped me start to be like oh is that something i would like uh maybe i don't know or is that that's something i don't like um getting to know yourself yes and so it helped me so much to see more of the world helped me helped me kind of realize like why would it be bad that i'm like enjoying some of this stuff um and my two things my my talk was my dad sitting

down and he filled a glass of water with water or a glass with water and went out and like got dirt and dropped the dirt and it went out and got leaves and dropped leaves and it found rocks dropped rocks in it you know where this is going and so that so then he passes it across the table to me and he says now cleaning it clean that water make it clean again I was like I don't know how to I'm like 12 or 13 oh my gosh he's like that's what your body is like if you share it with a man before you're married So that was my like that was the main thing also he came in I don't oh you were homeschooled never mind um there's the CPR something it was called CPR and I can't even remember anymore why but that was when people came in and talked to middle schoolers about their sexuality and puberty and

all of that my dad came in that day and talked to all the boys so it's like the same time time this is all happening. My dad's like in the next room over and I'm like, this is just, this is so weird. But another one of those repentant moments, there's something called Xus, which is like a burning man for Christians, essentially. Oh, I think I've heard of this. And there was another one called Creation that was even more popular in Pennsylvania. Yeah. That one was very popular. And then Icthuse was, we were Midwest. It was, we were Midwest. It It was in Kentucky and we're in Indiana, so it was a lot closer. But basically you camp out, which I hate.

Like, I do not want to do that. You camp out and you go see all of these big Christian artists and pastors and speakers and authors. And every single year, it's so similar to like cry night for anyone who also went to like church camp. There's like a big thing where they talk about how like you can, your virginity can be born again through Christ if you repent. And there were two girls, like in my youth group in the church who like every year were brought to tears. And then they told them all to come up on stage. There are thousands of us there. They had to come up on stage and cry and like get their virginity restored.

And I was like, like talk about a humiliation ritual. Like that's what it was. Yes. It's just so. That was one of those other moments where I wanted when I like remembered it a couple years ago, I wanted to like call those girls and be like, I'm so. sorry. That's so awful. Yeah, that ministry school that I went to, one of the pastors, it's now kind of like famous online the story. He, I don't know if he still does it, but when I was there, he was still doing this, like where every year at school he would come up and speak about purity. And he would

lead all the women in a prayer to restore their hymen and talk about how God's going to restore their virginity. And it was this whole thing. And I, when I was there, I was married. And I remember, standing there with my husband and next to another married couple and the husband like turning to make a joke like we should have our wives pray for this again too like it's so gross and it's so like the obsession with this is super weird and um yeah i i think back about all of those girls too that are and this pastor talks about like i've had women email me all the time saying that they've had their hymen restored because of my prayer what there's no way super creepy super weird You can lose your, for any men or women who are listening and don't even know, like, you can lose your hymen using tampons.

You can, you can lose it via, like, active sports. Right. Like, there's a lot of reasons that that happens. Yeah, it has nothing to do actually with, that's not an indicate, like, there's no biological virginity. So it's just more of the purity propaganda. Yeah, I remember hearing a lot about hymins. Yes. I was like way too much. The fact that we know those words shows our background.

Yeah. Hyman trauma. Yeah. I knew more about a hymen. I didn't know about a clitoris until I was away from home. Definitely wasn't taught about that. No, not at all. Well, this kind of ties into two.

You're talking about how like anytime like individual pleasure, even when it's not sexual is is not something you they're they're not wanting you to experience that at all right um and i i think it has so much to do with like in my experience it's like they need you to feel like the only way you're happy is in community with these other people and especially like in worship as well. And some of the stuff when you were talking about, like, the way music and lights and all of that can create a vibe. I remember learning the term collective effervescence, which is like when lots of people come together and experience something almost spiritual would kind of be the word. But it can be music.

It could be a movie. It could be a play. It's like this bubbling up feeling of like feeling very connected. to lots of people typically in the context of some kind of art. Not always. But I remember thinking like how, back to that question that was in my family a lot, how could people sing and experience this and not believe? Right. And then I went to my first concert that wasn't Christian and I was like, holy shit. It was here the whole time. That'll do it every time. And I share that story of mine too where I have this moment. And I remember it so well. It was also like one of my favorite just teen memories because

it's an amazing concert and it's my favorite artist and just being like, oh boy, how am I going to like figure out this one? Because of course I had to make it fit my religious point of view. And I did. I rational, I was like, well, this is, the Holy Spirit loves me so much that he made sure he'd show up at a At a concert. But yeah, that was a huge turning point, I think, for me as far as like a data point where I not necessarily then had breakthrough, but I looked back like, yeah, man, it started haunting me, I think. Yes.

Yeah, I read, I can remember which book it was. It was one of the books I read last year kind of around this stuff. And it pointed out what I hadn't done, I hadn't paired together. that also keeping us, keeping us from anything secular would also, would also, that's even, it's like perpetuating the idea in your head that this is the only place that you can feel these things. Right. And I knew that like some of it was like they didn't want me to know what was going on in the rest of the world.

But I was like, it's even the awe and the like experience of experiencing art that they didn't want you to know could happen outside of a church. A hundred percent. Yeah, I, that's a, I love that word awe. Um, because awe and wonder, to me, like I use those terms more than I even use spirituality, because I don't feel that spiritual applies to stuff for me, but I absolutely feel awe and wonder. And all the time now, I live in Finland now and they have the most beautiful nature and I'll be walking around in a birch forest. And I'm just like, I have a sense of awe and wonder. And, And I still will have that moment where it's like, man, 15 years ago, I would have been like, and it's amazing that God made it.

And it takes away from the awe and wondered. But you're right. There was so much of that, like, where you've been taught to either train your brain to recognize the God in it or you're kept away from it all together. Certain, you know, there's movies. Of course, there was like a lot of like purity culture surrounding movies and music, too. They didn't want me hearing certain words or seeing certain scenes. Oh, yeah.

But also a lot of it, I think, was exactly what you just said so that you're not recognizing like the emotional pull that art and things that to you are profound can conjure up without a God. Because, you know, you can't necessarily go to an ACD concert and be like, well, that was God. When you can with the sunset, you can be like, no, that was totally God. Yes. But it gets a lot more difficult to do that when you have people that are blatantly like, no, I'm not, I'm not a worship leader. This is not a worship conference.

Right. Yeah. It's wild. So you kind of, then in your skepticism that developed as well, you talk about, there's a sentence. It was one of my favorite things because curiosity is so important to me in my life now, not even. just in reaction to what happened a decade ago or so for me. But I just think it's so important and everything you've been saying about like, I love meeting new people who like have different approaches to life.

Like it doesn't have to be an affront to how I live to just hear about different ways that other people live. Yeah. And so and I just, I even tell people because like within fiction bookstagram, there's like all these like well I don't want to read diversely because I don't connect with this and sometimes I tell people like selfishly you like get to experience unique stories like if you just like read different things that aren't just about you like it does make it more fun um so curiosity is really important to me and when you were talking about how saying like I don't know yet helps you like kind of stay humble

and stay open to stuff what was your journey like kind of getting to that point? because I do think a lot of people will stay in Christianity because it makes it feel sure about things. Absolutely. It's addicting. Certainty is super addicting. And it makes sense because it makes us feel more safe when we think that we have the answer to something, especially like with OCD. I love reassurance. I love feeling like I have certain to about something. And I think a lot of, yeah, a lot of my, the work that I did to even combat that, I'm sure, has helped with my process of questioning every thing I used to believe. But really, I think what helped the most and then has also actually helped the OCD was in that time in 2016 when I was really starting to question stuff,

I kind of had like a talk with myself like, okay, what's the like what's the end game here? Like what are you doing? Like what are you trying to figure out? And I sat there with myself and I'm like, what are my values? Like what do I think, you know, going through all this stuff, trying to figure myself out. And I was like, I am looking for truth. That's what it is. Like, I am looking for truth. And then I decided like, okay, is that what you're committing to? Are you committing to figuring out what is true and prioritizing that over anything else? Over your comfort, over what the people around you think over anything else? And I was like, yes. And of course, at the time, I was like, because God is true. And so it's going to be fine. I'm committed to truth. And so that felt like a good thing.

And it made logical sense to me. And I was finally, for one of the first times, like, letting myself go down a logical route with all of this. And in my search for what is true, I realized there's not a lot I can be sure of as far as what is true or what isn't. It's kind of more mundane things that I can be sure about. I'm sure that I'm holding some ments here. I'm sure that, you know, as sure as I can be, that my husband and are going to go out to dinner tonight, you know, things like that. But in general, like, I'm not sure about a lot. And there's so much in the world that's changing as we get new information. And so as I was sitting in those times when I'm like really trying to learn everything from the Bible, trying to learn everything about science and history, I reached the conclusion over and over again. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Because I would try to fill in an answer and be like, well, it must be this. And I would have that voice in back of my head like, you.

you said you care about truth. You said you care about truth. Is this true or not? And I kept coming down to the answer of I don't know. And that felt really stifling and it felt really. So scary. Yeah, really scary. I said it felt like the like the ground just like was yanked out from underneath. A hundred percent. And it also to me felt kind of sad like hopeless. And I realized that adding that word yet, because then I did start to get some answers to some things. I was like, oh, I didn't know yet. And then I was looking back throughout history. I'm like, there's so many things that we used to not know. We didn't know them yet. But we know them now. So there's actually, there is that hope. And it's the hope is in the part of me that's honest about

not knowing. Because if I were to try to make up an answer instead, there actually isn't hope then. Because I've now shut down that thing. It's fake. That's what I got to that too. I was like, it's not actually calming if I'm faking it. Totally. It's just, it's like that reassurance that you get, you know, when you're ruminating over a thought. And you're like, well, everything's probably fine. I checked my heart rate and it's okay. I'm not having heart attack. And then like 30 minutes later, you need reassurance all over again. And I felt like that's what this God belief had started doing for me. It was just like it's a never ending cycle of going back to it for reassurance, not really getting a solid answer. And finally letting go of that and facing the like, can you be okay

if you don't know things? Like, can you be okay in the unknown? And that's where I came up with that. I don't know yet. Sorry, that was a very long answer. No, that was perfect. I had, such the same and it's kind of like it's tempting to think it's part of my personality that I want to have control and answers. I think it's also a very human thing too. A hundred of a lot. Like it would be nice to be able to feel sure about stuff. But it was like it like you're talking about like for me, I started questioning this my family and then thus Christianity when I was 19. I didn't really start deconstructing until later. But I started questioning that part and it would that it's so scary to have lived that long thinking

that there are so many things you can be sure about without evidence. Yeah. And you're like, well, I just know this. And it's so scary at first. I have so much compassion for anyone who like finds themselves in that space. Because like you just, it's so overwhelming. And it's like I'm over explaining it because I don't feel it as often now. Right. But it was, I just remember it was, it was terrible. There were like 18 months of my life that like all I could think about was death because in the back of my mind, I was like, if I really think this, I'm like running the risk of going to hell. So then like I was obsessed with death, like just thinking about death for a year and a half. And I was like, I'm so glad I made it through it. But it was one of those where you like just like have to look at it as like, oh, that was a season of life. And I am glad that I got through. And I was like, I'm so glad that I got through.

it and I do I think I'm actually pretty good at living in the unknown now. I think I also see I think I also interpret it differently and sometimes even awe comes in with that kind of stuff to just be like you can't know everything. Sometimes it's even what helps me stop over thinking because I'll be like you're not going to figure it out. Totally. Yes. I mean I think you're describing it perfectly. And that's a huge motivator behind why I wrote this book is because I, that's how I felt. I felt so alone and terrified and hopeless. And I also didn't even know yet. Like what, like, what else do I not know? What else am I? Like, you know, you feel like it's this endless thing. Like, when will I reach the end of this horrendous questioning process? And I think for me, like,

one of the goals in the book was to kind of hit as many things as I could think of as possible to kind of rip the Band-Aid off for people to like hold their hand and be like, let's rip the Band-Aid off, let's get down to some of these scary thoughts and scary topics and things and figure out, what do you, what do you think? Do we know this? Do we not know it? But let's do it together. Let's think it through. And then you don't have to feel crazy or alone because I also felt crazy. I'm like, am I stupid because I don't know this? Am I stupid because I used to think that I knew Like where am I out with this? Then it is a-

And then you don't know how to trust yourself. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yes. And when you are super dogmatic, you're trusting the dogma. You're trusting God. You're trusting, you have this North Star, even if it's leading you wildly astray and not

actually helping you at the end of the day. You at least can keep like, you know. You're out of tether. Yeah. You're like a moth to a flame. Just like, I'm going for it. It'll be fine. And then you don't have that anymore.

And you're like, oh, I actually have to get. get to know myself and actually things aren't black and white and actually there's nuance to life and I'm not making the right or wrong decision most of the time. I'm just making a decision. Right. Which brings me to my last thing. I think you have it at the beginning of your book too where you talk about it might be in like the intro where you talk about you did come from a place where everything was black and white and then you did start to learn that like there are lots of colors there's lots of different versions of stuff. And oddly enough, when I first, we tried to do therapy in our family and both parents quit pretty quickly. It's cool that they started. That's better than I've

done so far. Yeah. I mean, when I say they tried, like, it was a month. So it wasn't, it wasn't much. Sure. But I remember writing something to my mom at the beginning of therapy talking about, like, I thought things were black and white, but like, what if there's a lot of color to everything? And I think it works so well as an analogy when you're in like high demand religion because it's all about having very clear cut answers. But then the other thing I arrives at then over time, I love nihilism as well. And you discuss nihilism. And one of my favorite nihilism memes really depicts kind of how you talk about it. But it's like nihilism and it's like an emoji that's sad.

And underneath it it says nothing matters. and then there's an emoji that's happy and it says nothing matters. Yes. There could be so much freedom. It doesn't just have to feel negative to be like, nothing matters. Like I can just make my decisions. I don't have the weight of disappointing my God, my mother and my father. Like and all these people like nothing matters.

Like you can make decisions. You can correct. You can change your mind. Like all of that. So can you kind of talk about how nihilism started to work for you? It worked really well, really fast. I kind of, you know, I think the process of leaving your faith, there's like waves. And I had come out of the wave of like, okay, I don't believe a God exists.

I'm an atheist. I was hitting all of that. And then I was like, you know, I guess there's not meaning or purpose. That was the logical conclusion for me. So, man, that means nothing matters. And then I was like, but if nothing matters. then there were on even playing field again and anything can matter. So that means the things I care about can matter as opposed to back in my religious days,

a lot of the stuff that I, you know, would have loved to care about and liked and was into. I was told that that was, you know, if anything good, like the best case scenario was a distraction from the enemy. Yeah. To keep me from God or whatever. Yes. And now it's like a God ordained plan or it doesn't matter. Yes.

And you just kind of have to erase yourself. But I realized if, you know, if nothing matters, then I actually get to decide for myself what is meaning and what is purpose. And I get to, you know, any given day. Like today I can feel like something gives me purpose that tomorrow maybe it's not. And so I can do something else. It's not like I have to stick to this. Of course, I have like lifelong ambitions and dreams.

and stuff, but I don't have to feel like those are my gods. You know what I mean? I can change and I can grow and I can act based off of new information. And that's one of my favorite things about nihilism. To me, it's just a clean slate. Yes, I completely agree. Yeah, it's been so helpful for me. And I understand why some people are just, they're only going to hear the nothing matters sure yes but like for me it's it's freeing which is like generally what my experience leaving Christianity has been has been about like feeling free to be my own person again for sure again I say again but it's same as you probably uh for the first time yeah we were reborn born again again ex-christians whatever we want to call it yeah whatever that means yeah like the ex-angelicals

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think we could probably talk for hours. I feel like we absolutely could. Yes, for sure. But for the sake of, you know, both of us having other things to do maybe, where can people follow you to stay up to date on all the stuff you're doing? Because you do a lot of other stuff that I didn't mention. Yeah, I host over on YouTube on a channel called The Line where we regularly

chat with theists. And lately we've done some calls where we're talking to MAGA as well. And I also like to talk to people who want to call in and state their case for why they think, you know, feminism is bad or things like that. So I love hosting over there because I get to stay engaged with people who think differently than me and have these conversations. I don't necessarily feel like a lot of these conversations end up changing the person's mind. that I'm talking to. And it's pretty rare that they end up changing my mind about whatever the topic is as well. But I think they're really good for other people to hear because that's what I didn't get

to hear growing up was ideas opposing each other and then talked through. It would have really helped things for me. I would have developed critical thinking skills a lot sooner. So you can find me over there on the line on YouTube. I also have my own YouTube channel. I think it's just promised backland. but everywhere else on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, I'm Eve underscore was framed. And then I'm really excited back over on YouTube.

I'm going to launch season two of my podcast when the book comes out. We're going to take each chapter and I'm going to have a couple of guests and a couple of episodes per chapter come on and kind of share some of their story and all of that. So I might have to call you and see if you want to come hang out on one of the episodes. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, that sounds great. I obviously loved the book. Anyone who has listened to any of these episodes where we kind of talk about Christianity and it's like where it is in politics now, which is of course it is.

I think you would really love this book too. So as of today that it's airing, you guys can go by gospel of lies and you can send me your thoughts. You can send promise your thoughts. I love to hear them. have conversations. And I'll put all those links in the show notes for everybody. And thank you for writing this. And thanks for having a conversation about it. It means a lot to me too because it was hearing other people talk that helped me.

So I think it's so important that we have these conversations. Yeah, for sure. And I think it helps other people, even like you and I having this conversation, it helps people feel less crazy and less alone. Like, yes, there's another and there's another. And we're not alone in this. But thanks so much for reading the book. And thank you, of course, for having.

for having me on here and chatting this was so fun