Bookwild - Gateway/Starter Thrillers with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: May 17, 2024

This week, Halley Sutton is back to talk about good gateway or starter thrillers - like when your non-thriller reader friend asks you what they should read and you don't want to scare them away from the genre immediately.  Books We Talked AboutKate's PicksAll the Missing GirlsDeath of a Dancing QueenAll Good People HereThe Lies I TellNever Have I Ever Halley's PicksStephanie Plum SeriesGold CoastCarl Hiassen BooksI Have Some Questions For YouFake Like MeHollywood Homicide SeriesPatricia Wants to Cuddle  Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I am back with Hallie Sutton this week. So I know everybody is as excited as I am. We had a couple topics. One, we are going to get into what I'm calling gateway thrillers, kind of like thrillers that don't, that are good for like your friends who are like, I've never read a thriller, but I'm interested.

What should I read? So maybe not something that's going to like terrify them and keep them up all night. And maybe like, not the dark, dark, dark thrillers that you read sometimes. So I thought that would be a fun topic. And I'm excited to see what you picked. Yeah, I can't wait to talk about this with you. And I can't wait to see what you picked too. This was such an interesting topic that you proposed. And I was thinking about it and trying to think about like, where were my gateway thrillers, you know?

Yeah. And it also made me think I had a professor. in grad school who would say, and I believe he was paraphrasing some very famous, like, American man of letters who I am forgetting who it is. So somebody, I'm sure, could shout out and say, but like that all, all novels on some level are a crime novel, are mysteries, that there's always, even if the crime is smaller domestic, if it's not, you know, it doesn't have to be illegal, but like a transgression, like at its heart, that's sort of what we read almost all novels for. And certainly I think that's true about mysteries. Like I was thinking about, for example, the seven husbands of Evelyn Hugo by Taylor Jenkins

read, which is by no means a mystery novel, right? But it has all these little mysteries. Yeah, it has all these little mysteries threaded through it that you're reading for. You're trying to understand like why has she chosen the narrator to be the person to tell her story to what was her actual relationship to all these men who was the love of her life? life and you pick up those clues and that's one of the things that keeps you moving forward as you read and I think that all books I really do think it's true that all really good novels almost all I mean maybe there's some I think there are those novels who I say all immediately undercut myself

never mind not true um but like those novels that resist the like um traditional narrative arc may not be as true or really experimental but like most of the most of the most of the most of the Most novels have little mysteries that they're seeding that the reader is trying to get to, even if they're not a mystery in the sense of there's been a crime or there's a dead body. It's just so I was thinking about that in our framing too of like gateway thrillers and like where can people come into the genre. So I don't know. I just wanted to throw that out at top.

Yes. So when I sent you this topic idea, you kind of said that back. Like you mentioned how like all novels have mystery in them. And I was like, you're right. Because the thing that keeps in, in like most stories, the thing that keeps the reader like turning the page is there's like something where they're like, I don't have the answer to this yet or I don't know how this is going to play out, like that kind of a feeling. And so when you said that in your email, I was like, that's actually such a really good point. And it's kind of like thrillers just like ratchet that up even higher. But then we went and saw challengers.

I don't know if you've seen challengers. Okay, so this podcast might just turn into us talking about challengers. Because I saw it last week and I'm obsessed with it. So we saw challengers right after you and I talked about that. And you mentioned like all good stories have mysteries in them. And I'm going to like not, I don't want to spoil it at all for anyone who hasn't seen it. So what I'll say is like I was seeing all these TikToks before we went and saw it. And they were like, the story structure is so crazy.

Like, it's unlike anything I've seen. And people were comparing it to, they're like, the last time I saw something like this was Slumdog Millionaire is what they were comparing it to. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I was like, okay, I could see that. And then we saw the movie. And I was like, okay, I see where people are getting that.

But I think what I really enjoyed about it is it's kind of paced and told like a thriller where you start, you start at present. day and then you're getting these little glimpses from like 13 years ago up to present to explain why everything is so intense in the present and they just do it so well so it's like every time you're going into the past they're kind of answering a mystery a mystery that gets brought up in the present and i was like this is a perfect example of what hallie was saying but what i also said to Tyler, after we left it, I was like, now I see why, like, people, I'm not trying to say this in a pompous way. People who, like, just watch movies and don't read as many books. I see why they're like, I've never seen a structure like this since Slumdog Millionaire where, like, I was telling Tyler,

I was like, this is the structure of some of my favorite books is, like, figuring stuff out this way. So it really is, like, it's not a thriller, but it feels like one. And it's just a great movie. Totally. It is thrilling, but it's not a thriller. Yeah, totally agree. And it's, yeah, and I'm, I'm with you. The structure is very booklike in that way. Like, it's like actually a very, like, I wouldn't say traditional, but like a fairly common device to have kind of like a current timeline and a past timeline in the way you interweave them would be almost exactly the way that Challenger does it, where it's like you have these snippets of the current timeline moving forward and then each one moves back. And I also loved about this. I loved that movie. Like on so many levels.

I loved it. I didn't like, it's not that I didn't thought it was a perfect movie, but like I came out of it just like exalerated and I was like, I want to see it again, you know? And I want to be like, I've never played tennis in my life, but somebody get me a racket, you know? But like I also love that the structure of it is, um, in some ways, mimicking the tennis match that we're following. That's kind of this back and forth call and response.

I, I just thought it was really like smart and well put. together movie and just like high energy and sexy and horny and like I was so into it. It made me remember. Bisexual for days. Like it was so great. And then it made me, you know, I grew up playing sports and I thought that they did a really good job of kind of capturing that feeling of like power that you have when you're like at the top of your game. and your body is really like bending to what your mind is asking it to do that like those two are really in sync and that is like I was trying to remember the last time I saw that feeling captured on screen and it made me want to capture it in a book and like yeah I don't know I loved it

yes yeah I was obsessed with it again trying to keep it a spoiler free as possible the score is amazing the score is part of what makes you like think that you could win a tennis match totally totally i could totally play tennis totally it was the same feeling as um which i know you just saw too monkey man where it was like i could like kick through walls after that score where i was just like oh like my gosh i know i was just about to bring that up because i i saw we saw monkey man and then the next week we saw challengers and i was like this this like i am kicking off the summer of movies like on a high so you really are mad max periosa still as good as i'm thinking it's going to be. I'm sure it will. But I hope so too. I'm really excited for that one. Yes, totally.

Totally. Totally. And both like very, very cool. Yeah. And both very, um, I mean, they're very different films, but both like that kind of like energetic feel like you come out of it feeling kind of like amped up, you know, which I love. Yeah. Totally. Which can also be the experience of reading a thriller to bring us back to Gateway Thrillers. It really is. Like to talk about, because I think what Monkey Man did really well with its pacing as well because like I always sit in the back row the movie theaters and we tend to go during the weekdays and so mostly so that I can take notes the whole time. Oh, I love that. Everything that I'm loving. And so Monkey Man, what they do so well is like especially if you haven't like seen the whole preview or the whole trailer recently at the beginning you have so many questions.

And so like that's what I couldn't stop writing was like how many questions they like bring up in the first like 15 minutes. Like you, you don't know what he's doing, but you have all of these like, oh, why did he do that? Why does he want to work here? Like, you have all of these great questions. So you're so hooked, even when you don't totally know, like, the direction it's going in. And that's what it was, that even reminded me of like, thrill, which it is an action thriller, but like, thriller mystery pacing because like, you're just kind of like thrown into the world in the middle of the action. And you're just like finding out more information as it goes on. on. It was so good.

Yeah, I really liked that movie, too. And I thought it was, like, I loved, I thought, I mean, Deb Patel, I think is great. I've been, like, a fan of his since the Skins days, which I don't know if you ever watch Skins, but, like, that was... Yeah, like, I did, I didn't. But it's like the OG Euphoria, right?

Kind of. Yes. Yes. OG Euphoria, British show. My friends and I got obsessed with it in college, and we would just, like, watch, like, eight hours at a time of just, like, the most insane situations teenagers could ever get themselves in, but we're like, it's London. We don't know. Maybe it happens, you know? And he was on that as a kid and it was great. But like I thought he was great. And I thought that like for his first feature, I mean, that was the movie he directed, wrote, starred in everything. It had such like an interesting, cool vision. Like I really, I thought it was

great. Yeah. Yes. That was what that makes it even more endearing is like I was obsessed with the fact that like this was his baby. I don't know if you like saw that like it almost didn't get to go to theaters. Like it was just going to go straight to Netflix. And because there was some they were they started filming it and then COVID happened. And so then they were trying to keep the filming up. And basically got to a point where like they didn't have the funding to take it all the ways to theater, something like that.

And Jordan Peel saw a cut of the movie and he came on as a producer. He was like, people have to see this in theaters. So Monkey Paw Productions picked it up. And Jordan Peel was even like, I mean monkey paw, monkey man like I had to. Right. Totally. Totally.

And God, I love Jordan Peel too. Like such a visionary. And like, Get Out is like one of the best thriller films I would say of like the last. Fantastic. How many decades. I was so good. So good. Also, randomly, I can't help myself, but pointing out that we talked about

Slumdog Millionaire in relation to, um, challengers, which is Dev Patel. And then in talking about Monkey Man, we talked about OG Euphoria, which is Zendaya. So we just had all the connections going on. Totally, like a little like, uh, Oroboris. Yeah, for sure. Yes. Yeah. We're just matching all the connections. But yeah, if people haven't seen those movies, you guys need to go see them. I don't know if Monkey Man is still in theaters, but they're definitely both we're seeing in theaters if you can. Yes. Yes. Yes, I agree. I felt like it was both of those where I was happy to have like the big screen experience with too. And I thought that was part of the feeling of like feeling so like amped watching it. Yes. Totally. Yep. Well, now we've shared all our movie recommendations.

And so, okay. So let's so let's get into gateway thrillers. So yeah. So I loved what you said. I'm wondering if you could say a little more too about like. Like, what do you consider like a gateway thriller? Like what, what's like your criteria or I don't know that there has to be. I don't know. I'm just curious to hear more. No, it's worth talking about for sure, especially at the beginning of it. So the interesting origin story of this actually hits on two other people who've been on the podcast. So Steph Lauer, she has friends who are in like just a fiction book club.

And then she's also the head of thrillers by the book club in her state, basically. Right. So for that one, she obviously can just like recommend thrillers and roll with it. But she has some friends who were like, we kind of want to try one. And so back when the last housewife had just come out by Ashley Winstead, which I love, obviously. She did that one, but she did not know. just, I mean, Ashley even pitched it as a pitch black thriller. Ashley told people to read the trigger warnings.

Yeah. But Steph hadn't read it yet. And so they picked that. And she said that even she had some friends that were like, this is cool that you like this author, but I don't know if I'm going to finish it. Like, I don't know if this is for me. That is incredible. Knowing and loving that book and being like, oh, yeah.

And like the title is so innocuous. Honestly, I resisted picking up that book a little bit for a few months because of the title. I kind of thought it was going to be something that it wasn't. Yeah, that book is dark as hell and like rock and roll like dark. I can imagine somebody reading that as like an early thriller and being like, are they whole like this? Exactly. Exactly. Like, oh, I guess I don't like thrillers at all.

So she told me that story. And I was like, that's like a very classic. Like if you read thrillers, like you're going to, you're going to enjoy that story. It's kind of funny. So when Elizabeth Keenan and Greg Wands, who are EG. Scott, they were on before we hit record, I was just talking to Elizabeth a little bit. And I told her that story. And she was like, that would be actually a really good topic if you did like gateway thrillers,

like thrillers that like would apply for that situation. where it's like, hey, here's a way to like get a little hit of like the thriller experience without like terrifying or traumatizing someone who's not used to it kind of. Totally. So that's where this all came from was kind of that combo of them. And I just like wrote it. I was like, that's a really good idea. I'm going to write it down is an idea. And then now we're talking about it.

So I think kind of the criteria is like still you still get the thriller pacing like even when. I was looking through them, I was like, well, there's still murder in, I think, all of these that I picked. So I was like, I guess that's dark, but it's like, there is such a way for it to, like, not be gory or not be, like, heavily focused on the death and that it's kind of just, like, the fun pacing things of a thriller. So that was how I approached it. I love that. I love that. Yeah, I kind of thought about this and when I was thinking about it, which I thought was such great prompt. And that kind of dovetails with what I was thinking. I kind of I I kind of went back through my good reads and my own like personal reading history and was like, well, where did I

enter the thriller genre? And I think I probably even when I entered the thriller genre had like a darker sensibility because one of the ones that I was looking at was like, oh, I read a lot of Stephen King as a kid. And like that is can be pretty dark. But that was kind of like partially where I entered the thriller genre was, was him. And then I have a few others. But But then I was also thinking about it and thinking of like back to kind of what we were talking about about the way that there's mysteries in every book. A lot of the books I was thinking of were like maybe almost genre crossover, like even lit-fick crossover. Like I think of literary fiction as a genre with some books that have like more of a thriller bent sensibility plot engine, but also still are kind of like a little more a little more. more literary in like if that's if like somebody's in a book club and they're thinking about for that and then I was also thinking about what are ones that are just kind of fun to read that don't you don't close the book and think like like I again I cannot say enough good things about the last housewife

I loved that book I like was so in awe of how Ashley Winstead did what she did with that book and I think I like wrote her a note immediately afterwards being like I love how dark you went with that incredible, like, so glad your editor didn't make you, like, stand off the edges. Like, I thought it was great. Yes. But you close that book and you're not like, humanity's good. And, like, what a cheerful day I'm having, you know? So I was trying to think of books where I was like.

You don't really want to talk to any men after you read it. Exactly. You're like, the next motherfucker, excuse me, who crosses my path is going to get it, you know? So I was trying to think of books that, like, that wasn't necessarily the feeling. when you had it or that maybe like the experience of reading it even if it covered dark things like murder was kind of overall a more upbeat one without necessarily going full cozy. I'll be honest. I don't read a lot of cozy so I don't feel like I can necessarily speak to some recommendations

there. Yeah. I can't either. So we're not full cozy any of these. No, no. Except for like this is a weird thing, but I would almost tag. some of Rachel Harrison's horror books is like cozy horror. Like they're definitely horror and dark,

but they also make you feel good, like cackle, I think, honestly. Yeah. That's cool. That's cool. That's a fun one. Yeah. Well, I can kick us off if you want to do it.

If you want. Yeah. So one of the first ones that came to mind, and honestly, I would say probably all of hers are a really good. Gateway was all the missing girls by Megan Miranda, which is like 2016. But I think that's probably why she has very wide appeal.

And it's why you probably see her stuff a lot of places as they are thrillers, but they're like very accessible for the most part. So this one is about Nicolette Farrell, who she left her hometown like 10 years ago after her best friend Corinne disappeared. But she has to go back. to take care of her father and she gets sucked into some drama again that basically digs up her best friend Corinne's case who went missing a decade ago. So back then the decade or the decade, the investigation was focused on Nick, on her,

her brother, Daniel, and her boyfriend Tyler and Corin's boyfriend Jackson. and since then she's the only one who left the town everyone else is still there um but uh now tyler her boyfriend from a decade ago is dating someone named on a lease who was their neighbor um and within days of niccoli returning home honilese goes missing the fun part about this one is it's told backwards. So it's told from day 15 to day one. So from the time Annalise goes missing, Nick is like working to unravel what happened.

But you're starting basically 15 days out from her missing and working your way back up to the day that she went missing. So actually kind of similar to the challengers. What is the word I'm looking for? Just the different time frame. Like this is kind of like past and present. but like going backwards and it's just it I remember loving it like I read this one years ago but it like always sticks in my mind for like every now and then there's a topic that comes up

and I'm like this one because it was just so creative and it has like the fun small town dynamics that's kind of a fun trope and it's not it's not like overly focused on murder just two missing women so that's great totally she's so great and like like you said it lots of like crossover appeal too, I think. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's really fun. It's like I don't reread books. But it's one that like sometimes I'm like, I kind of want to reread it. Totally. Totally. Do you not reread books ever? I never have. Nice.

Yeah. I just always have so many more to read. I know. Truly. Seriously. As my shelves behind me can attest. like same hard same um that's a great one uh and i love that structure i think that that's so cool to like and it kind of upends the like traditional uh structure of a crime novel and i think

that's so interesting but it gets out like what we're looking for which is like what happened here yeah yeah yeah it's really good that's great uh so one of the ones that i was thinking of was one of my gateway. They're more mysteries than thrillers, but they definitely have thriller elements. Were the Stephanie Plum books by Janet Ivanovich. I started reading those when I was maybe in, I don't know,

eighth grade or something. And so the first one is called One for the Money. And I don't know how many she's up to now at this point, like 26, 27. And she just sold three more. And they made a movie of it with Catherine Heigel and everything. But like those books are, they almost have like a rom-com sensibility. Like there's kind of this ongoing will she won't she thing with Stephanie and at least two men.

I stopped reading them maybe at like book 12 or 13. And I like loved them. But then kind of was like, all right, we're just kind of rehashing the same thing over and over. And I think I just kind of moved on. But so I don't know. Maybe she's decided on Joe or Ranger or somebody else. but what I think was so great about those as like a gateway thriller because there's a lot of action and intensity and suspense in there, but that they are, they are kind of like rom-coms.

It's like if Bridget Jones was the PI in a book. And so she's this young woman who's just gotten a divorce and needs money and she decides to become a bounty hunter. And that's how she's going to earn her money is getting, tracking down these people who have skipped out on their bail. And then of course is like woefully underprepared. She has a mentor and gets involved with a couple of different men who may or may not have shady, interesting past. And it's just populated with this full cast of really great characters.

Like she has a grandmother who's just like 90 and horny the whole time is just like just aggressively horny. Like the whole, all of the books. And it's so funny. Like they're just, I'm always envious of people. who can write really funny books because that's hard to do. And these are such, such good ones. So, like, such a good entry point into the genre where it's both kind of thrilling, but also, if that's not your jam, there's, like, great family beats and just, like, funny and romantic and sexy. They're great. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That reminds me. Did you ever watch cover Affairs on USA?

I did not, but I do know the show. Yeah. It reminds me of that. Like that was like, it was like a CIA, like it is a spy show, but it like the relationships outside of like the spy world were pretty heavily developed too. So it was kind of like a entry gateway spy thriller on TV basically. So it's reminding me. Love that. Right.

Like you're not going for Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy. You're kind of starting like on the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yes. Yep. That sounds awesome. And I can't believe how coincidental it is the next one that I have. Oh, no.

The PI and the family beats and all of that. So I just posted about it today. We're recording on May 8th. But I read the second Billy Levine book recently. Yes. So good. So I wanted to talk about the first one, which is Death of a Dancing Queen. And so it's about she's a P.I. as well. Billy Levine is kind of taking over her grandfather's PI firm. And her and family beat. Her mom also has Alzheimer's, and she's having to kind of learn how to take care of her financially and her health. And so basically a rich kid named Tommy Rousseau offers her a bunch of money to find

his girlfriend and she's like, I mean, this seems kind of weird, but like, I can't say no to money. And but then basically, then the missing person case turns into a murder investigation and her client is like the detective's number one suspect. All of that like keeps escalating and somehow she gets like embroiled in a gang war that's connected to this decades old disappearance of a cabaret dancer, um, with ties to an infamous Jewish mob and a skinhead group. So all of a sudden, she is like in the middle of that. And in the midst of all of that, her hunky, according to the synopsis, ex-boyfriend with his own rap sheet is reappearing in her life. And she's reading every decision that got her to this point with him. So even when you were saying like, um, with the,

yours like the kind of shady guys that she's with I was like this is hilarious that I have this next one lined up but I love these books the second one comes out on May 14th so anyone who's like really in a PI vibe a noir vibe you could read two of them by the time that this episode or you could dive into two of them by the time this episode's coming out so and that's it's by Kimberly GGR tonneau and I love her she was on on the podcast last year about death of a dancing queen. She's going to be on again about the second one. So they're just like her voice. She's, she's funny while still having like mystery and very noir elements still happening. I just love being in her Billy Levine world. Totally. I was lucky enough

to get to read the first one, Death of a Dancing Queen early because I got to blurb it, which is like one of the most fun parts of being a writer is when people like send you a early and you're like, of course. So I love that book. I'm so happy that Billy is back for a second book, hopefully a third, hopefully a long-running series. And I totally agree. She does a really good job balancing a lot of elements in those series where it's like,

it is funny at times. And then there's like lighthearted stuff in there. There's also really dark stuff in there, like both the crime elements and also there's an element of, you know, like, I don't know. I don't know that this is a spoiler to say, but like, she has a family history of Alzheimer's and kind of throughout the book, she's kind of like, is this going to be a thing that's coming for me? Like, and so it's like these really like intense questions about things and like, what does that mean to be a PI who like can't necessarily trust your brain function? And like, it is, they're so good. They're so good. And so I'm so excited

for the next one coming out next week. I can't wait. Yes. I kept almost. me, I mean, you when I was reading it, but then I would be like, don't pull up Instagram and get distracted. Just keep reading. But this one has a lot of art theft in it. And so it reminded me of your topic that you brought up. I like kept thinking of you. Yes. Okay.

Enjoy this one. Even more excited to read the next. I mean, I was always excited. But like now, yeah, that's great. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah, it's fun. Okay.

So my next ones are, I kind of. of I'm grouping these two authors together, although they're very different, but I'll talk about both of them. Like, these are both authors that I read again when I was pretty young, like probably high school. And I don't think I was even thinking about genre of books at that point and the way that I do now, you know? I was just thinking like, oh, I like, I like the story. I'm interested in this story, right? Yeah. And so I read a lot of Elmore Leonard growing up, which I don't know. He is like, died in, I want to say, 2012.

He's considered like one of the great American prose stylists, but he wrote crime novels. He wrote westerns for a while before that. He's crazy adapted, like so many, like Quentin Tarantino, massively influenced by him. The movie Jackie Brown is an adaptation of one of his books. The TV show, Justified was based on one of his books. The TV show, or the movie Out of Sight with George Clooney and Jennifer Lopez is based on his book out of sight, which is truly like one of my favorite books in this world. Also his book, Gold Coast, which is about this woman.

Gold Coast is maybe my favorite Elmore Leonard book. And like, and I maybe I feel that way because it's a little underrated. Also, get shorty is another like classic of his that both the John Travolta movie was made in the 90s and then they remade it as a TV series a few years ago about a mafia man who like moves to Hollywood and gets involved in movie making. Um, nice. So Gold Coast is about a woman who marries a man in Florida who is kind of mob adjacent. Like, I don't know if I don't remember if he's like exactly a gangster or he just sort of has gangster ties. And anyway, she finds out like the first, the sentence is one of my first, or is one of my favorite first sentences in like all of crime fiction, which is like, um, Karen DeSilia put some things together and realized that her husband was,

screwing his secretary at like the Gold Coast departments, something like that. And it's just like so, it's so good. And so she finds out her husband's cheating on her and she threatens like, I'm going to have an affair. And he basically is like, never. And he writes it into his will when that like if she gets involved with another man, she doesn't get any of my money even after I'm dead. Like, and so then of course, early in the book he dies. And it's her kind of trying to like circumvent this will or like push against it in different ways. And it's, it's like just such a good kind of like what, what Elmore Leonard does really well that like the books get dark, but they always feel like a caper. You know what I mean? They don't feel, um, I feel like there has been a

turn in crime novels, crime movies often to kind of have this darkness and heaviness. And don't get me wrong. I love that. Like those are the waters I swim in. I was just thinking today, I was like, maybe the next book I write will be lighter and then I was like, probably not. Like, that doesn't interest me. Probably not. But like in the 90s, even as things got dark, there was still this kind of like poppiness to like these like caper feelings. So it's that kind of, which I actually think it was published before the 90s, but it has this kind of different feel to it that maybe for somebody who isn't looking for books that feel super heavy or dark, like a book I love. but I think it's like a pretty dark thriller would be like sharp objects by

Gillian Flynn you know like that's not one that I would that's not a gateway thriller I would recommend to anybody but these kind of are these tend to be a little bit more like bank robbers or you know things that are like crime but it's not maybe so heavy and personal yeah yeah and then he's a different writer but I would put him kind of in a similar category for a gateway thriller was I used to love the Carl Hayeson book Did you ever read any of his books? He is a Florida writer and he just like mercilessly mocks Disneyland and Disney World the whole time.

Like he just like he can't say Disney because like he doesn't want to get sued so he'll just be like the rat, the rat's house. Like and so he has these series of books that are often interconnected that are very Florida man. Before we were calling Florida man a thing, these books were out there. And so a lot of those. have been made into movies. The pretty terrible movie strip teas with Demi Moore was based on one of his books.

I think I have to imagine the book is better. But again, they are kind of these caper stories that revolve around maybe like stealing a million dollar boa constrictor out of the Everglades. And like, or like, there's one I remember reading where husband and wife are on a yacht. And in the first chapter of the husband throws the wife off the yacht and she survives and like makes it her life mission to like take him down. So they like they tend to be kind of more again like kind of capery. Not that there's not dark elements, but they have this kind of fun light feeling to them. They are like perfect beach reads like really truly and like again, very Florida man, just like

full of insane characters in there. And like I'm honestly, I'm like talking myself into going and rereading a Carl A's and book right now. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that vibe.

And both of those authors that you just mentioned, to bring it back to movies, it's making me think of the fall guy, which I have not seen yet, but I'm very excited. Me too. Because I'm hearing very similar reviews that, like, it's actually still very high octane and, like, very actiony and has the feeling of a thriller. And then it's also totally a rom-com at the exact. at the exact same time. Totally.

So I think that one, like, that's one that I'm, like, excited to go see because, yeah, like, you're still going to have the thrills and, like, the pacing of a thrill. But there's, like, some funny jokes. Like on the Elmore book, I just pulled up, it was saying it's sold with a sardonic voice, which is like, you had me at sardonic, basically. So I think I'm hearing that the movie is a little bit like that. And it is just, like, fun having those books. that are like still just going to be kind of fun.

But there's also some thrilling stuff happening. Totally. Totally. That's like I think a pretty good comp, especially for the Carl Hayeson ones where it's like the vibe. I haven't seen a fallout guy either and I really want to because it does look really fun and it's getting good reviews. And it seems like it doesn't take itself too seriously, which is also how I feel about the Carl Hayeson books.

They're really fun reads that also are not particularly heavy, even as they're like social satires at times. Yeah. Sometimes you just, sometimes you just don't eat heavy. Like, true. Like we said, like, there are times when I love it. And then there are times you're like, I just, I can't. I started reading bright young women at a time that was like the wrong time for me. Yeah. And I was like, I know this is good, but like it's not for me right now. And then when I did read it later, it was like better timing. But sometimes it's just not the right time. 100%. I, that makes me like, are you, I'm like a mood reader in the same way where it's like, I need the, this is like the most

2024 thing I've said today, I guess. The vibes have to be right. You know what I mean? It has to be, it has to kind of match what you're feeling in this moment, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And in that case, mine is like, I know that like when I'm PMSing, I can't, I just can't read anything too depressing that week because it just gets worse. And I tried to start reading it on that kind of a week. And I was like, this just makes me want to cry. Totally. Totally. I'm the same. I actually go like very light during those moments or I'll be like, let's shut every curtain in the house and put on like, hello darkness, my old friend and just like watch the darkest thing. You know what I mean? Like either like lean all the way into it or like, nope, let's let's throw something fun in the mix. Yeah.

Yeah, totally. That's me for sure. Yeah. Well, my next one is, I feel like it's a good gateway for a couple different reasons, but it is all good people here by Ashley Flowers. Ooh, yeah. Anyone who's a crime junkie fan, this is the host of, she's the host of a really, really popular true crime podcast. And she wrote her first novel. I can't remember if she wrote anything else, like nonfiction. But she wrote her first fiction novel in 2022.

And it takes place in a really small town. Basically, everyone in Walker, Rousa, Indiana remembers the case of January Jacobs, who was found dead in a ditch hours after her family awoke to find her gone. So Margot Davies, the narrator, was six at the time. She was the same age as January. and they were next door neighbors. So now we're 20 years from, we're 20 years into the future from that.

And Margo has become like a journalist in the city in Indianapolis. And, but she's always like, she's lived her whole life basically kind of freaked out that like it could have been her since they were like neighbors in the same age. And the killer was never caught. So it's just kind of like that person's just like always been out there and freaking her out. So she gets pulled back to her small town, you know, clearly one of my favorite tropes to take care of her stick uncle. And basically all the memories are rushing back to her. And then a girl from the next town over who's five years old goes missing like in the present timeline. And so now Margo's like, I am going to figure out how these two cases are.

connected. And so she's kind of revisiting all of the people from her memories of her childhood, like trying to put together what she remembered as a child with what's happening at present. And I will just say that you will not expect the ending at all. So I was also about to say something else and I realized that would give the ending away. So I'm not going to say that reason that it's a good entry. But it's kind of like, you can feel how her experience as a true crime podcaster, like helped shape her creating a character that's like trying to investigate something from a journalistic perspective. And it's obviously the murderer of her friend from like 20 years ago is like a big part of it. But you're not totally fixated on the murder

the whole time. So it is kind of more her like sifting through her memories and kind of like that whole past and present colliding. And the ending is just crazy. The ending is, I know it's one where some people either love or hate it, I guess, but I think it's like also kind of a good ending to experience as a thriller reader. Like I think you'll enjoy the experience of it. So I think it'd be a good option. Ooh, that is like such a cryptically intriguing blurb for that book. Like I, yeah, that sounds great. It also makes me think of, okay, so full disclosure, I haven't read that book yet.

I'm well aware of it. I think it's been a big hit in the last couple of months. It makes me think of like, I feel like something that people could, like another reason it could be a good gateway thriller. I feel like a thing that people could relate to is, especially. if you grew up in a small town, which I did, there's always like one crime that you all knew about, or like a handful of crimes. You know what I mean? And that's what it sounds like it's kind of the impetus for the book is this like the infamous crime that's never been solved. Like I have

one of those in my hometown. There was a young girl who was like maybe 10 years older than me, but she disappeared when she was 17 walking home from the mall. And like that didn't happen very frequently. And like it's never been solved. People have wondered if Robert Durst was involved because of some weird timing and he had a house up by where I grew up. And so, you know, the Jinks season three maybe. But like it's that sort of thing that like replicating that experience that I think a lot of people have, even if you're not thriller readers of being like, there was like one crime that happened in my hometown that like we all knew about, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And it's fun coming at it from like the journalist perspective.

Sometimes you're in like the police perspective or whatever. So that part's kind of fun following it from that perspective. Totally. Totally. You're right. Like there's such a difference between like the procedural and then somebody else who's investigating like from a different side. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And it kind of like explores our personal biases and stuff and all of that since like that's a part of it since she knows the townspeople. So it's really good. It was very memorable. that's kind of similar to my next recommendation in certain ways which is the book I have some

questions for you by Rebecca McKay that came out in 2023 and it's definitely more literary with a serving of thriller but it's kind of a dual timeline of this woman went to this really famous boarding school and one of the girls who she was like friends with but not best friends with was murdered while they were students there and it's never been solved. I'm sorry, that's not true. Murdered while they were students there. And there's a, someone's in jail for the crime who is connected to the school. But as an adult, she comes back there to teach and she's kind of in the midst of like a big

life change with her marriage and different things. And she starts to wonder, like one of her students proposes like, oh, I want to do a podcast about this true crime. can I interview you about it? And as they get into it, she starts to wonder if the wrong man is in jail and starts to kind of pick apart and like pick apart her own memories. And so it's this kind of meditation on like, can we trust our memories? How much did we actually see, you know, what is what good is your memory 20 years later?

And it's got like it's got kind of tinges of dark academia and 1990s boarding school. also being very like, you know, upmarket literary. And so I think, I think for somebody who is looking for an entry point into the thriller genre, but like likes book club fiction or more literary fiction, I think that's a great one. And I found the ending wildly satisfying, but I have my friend Wendy Hurd, who is a writer as well of many thrillers, like texted me after she finished it and was like, I yeated this book across the room. Like, that's how it ended. And I was like, but that's the beauty of it.

Like I, and again, I don't want to give anything away. But like, she definitely plays with all of the thriller tropes, but then consciously rejects them in favor of others. It's, it's a great book. It's long, but it's, it's really good. Yeah, I remember my dogs are giving their opinions as well. Yeah. They have some gateway.

They'd like to mention. Thank you. I remember seeing that book everywhere. Like it was all over people's timelines and it was one I just haven't gotten to. But now you're, now you've got me convinced with that ending hook. Yeah. I for sure want you to read it and tell me what you think about the ending because, you know, whether we get to that conversation today or another day,

I still really want to have a conversation with you about like what makes a satisfying ending in the thriller genre because. I don't know. I think it's a really interesting question. Do we always have to answer every question? You know, and at what point, what like, how, how is that done satisfyingly and then when is it unsatisfying? Because I think that those are interesting questions too. Yeah. No, it really is. And I know it's so subjective. That was like, like you're saying, like Wendy Heard had a totally different reaction than you did. people can feel so differently about endings, I think it is, which is like so interesting. And mine, I've kind of always said that like to me, I want it to feel, which would still end up being

subjective, but I want it to like feel like the ending was inevitable. So I want it to kind of feel like given everything that the author told me up to the ending, this could be expected. And so I think that's why sometimes with some endings that are like a little bit. bit ambiguous. Yeah. I'm like, I still kind of feel like I know where the author was pushing me or why there's like a deeper meaning for the ending being kind of ambiguous.

That's like kind of where I end up falling. Totally. Totally. I hear that. And I feel very similarly. I want that same feel like that really we couldn't have gotten to any other place by the end of the book. But I also fall on a spectrum of I'm okay with not every question being.

answered as long as it doesn't feel like it's just because the author dropped the ball. You know what I mean? And then I think that also pushes against, like, I think one of the pleasures and one of the reasons that people come to like thriller and crime genre is like it gives an, it gives a version of a world in which answers are knowable, which is not true of every, which is not true of most of life, right? Like you crillers, crillers. Crime novel thrillers are very like logical and they tend to be like, okay, I've set you a puzzle and the reward is at the end you will understand the puzzle.

And like I agree with that. But I think that there are sometimes ways that you can, there's also a way I get annoyed by that and want to push on it of like, but that isn't always the experience of life. And sometimes it feels too neat to be able to just say like, oh, and then we've gone to all these places and now it's all just wrapped up with a bow and so i think what rebecca mackay does in i have some questions for you to me felt like the best of both worlds that you come out of it and it's not that you don't have a good sense of what might have happened but it's also not this perfect ending either and i hope i didn't give anything i don't think i gave anything away by saying that. It's just, like, I thought it was a really well-done example of,

um, of something like that, where it's kind of both. I think sometimes too, like with story, sometimes the most important thing is how the main character is transformed. And I think sometimes that can be where like, it's okay if the external plot isn't completely tied up. If I feel like a satisfying feeling about like how the character changed totally that sometimes works really well too totally which is like essentially what like a crime or a thriller novel is which is like taking that internal character change and using something external and like an external catalyst to kind of also bring it back interior yeah yeah i think that's i think you're so spot on with that yeah well we have lots of feelings about endings and we may

talk about it even more but oh yeah i do i do love that i do love that thought and just like and just how different you can feel per book like maybe on a certain book you're like oh really thought i wanted answers and then on another one you're okay with not having all of them totally i think that's true and i think a lot of that has to do with like the author's craft right like yeah of the way that they've constructed the story like like even like what you just said like am i satisfied by the character's journey, even if I don't know all of the pieces. Like, even if I couldn't tell you this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened, in terms of like the crime itself or like, oh, it's, you know, so-and-so didn't go to jail.

But, you know, like, I think that that's always an element of craft. And I'm very impressed by authors who can pull that off where they can find ways to make the book satisfying, even if it's not like, and then all the bad guys are in jail. And we've just, you know, the world is restored. yes yeah exactly well my next one has a very satisfying ending i was really hoping that i was going to like have one be like and for for an ambiguous ending but my last ones have have pretty satisfying endings but um my next one for gateway thrillers is called the lies i tell by Julie Clark. I am a sucker for con thrillers, as anyone who listens knows. And this one is about

two women and lots of aliases. So one has gone by Meg Williams, Maggie Littleton, and Melody Wild just depending on the job that she needs to do. And she's a con artist who erases herself to become whoever you need her to be. Nothing about her is real and she slides along and tells you exactly what you need to hear and by the time she's done, you've likely lost everything already. Then we have Kat Roberts, who has been waiting for waiting 10 years for the woman who upended her life to return. And now that she has, Kat is determined to be the one to expose her.

But as these two women grow closer, Kat's long-held assumptions, begin to crumble, leaving cats wonder who Meg's true target is, which this does not give away much of the plot, which is good for this. But it's such a cat and mouse thriller. And it's another one where you're like torn because you switch between the point of views of both of these women and you start to understand both of their motivations the further you get into the book. And you're like, who am I even pulling for? And I like love that kind of suspense. I think it's just like super fun. Totally. I can't remember if there's no murder. I think there might there may even not be. So it's like most of the suspense is coming from like who am I even pulling for as the reader and how are

their like differing motivations going to clash. I love that. I love that. And I have that book, which I haven't read. And I actually think Julie Clark lives in my neighborhood, which is a weird thing to say. But, like, yes, I went to an event that she did with Ashley Winstead. And Ashley, like, Ashley and I went out to dinner afterwards. And she was talking to me and she was like, oh, you should hang out with Julie.

She's in your part of town. And, like, I've legit, like considered wandering the streets just being like, Julie, Julie Clark, Julie? I'm hilarious. Yeah. I don't know that she'd respond, but we'll see. But yeah, I love that. I like, I love those books, too, where it's like, who am I even rooting for?

Like, you start out thinking you're going one place and then you wind up being like, oh, these characters are so real in this way. I love that. It's very good. It's one of my favorites of all time. Excellent. Excellent. Okay, just jumped up with you not just on my TBR list. Yes.

Yeah. It's really good. You don't have to text me if you read it. Oh, for sure, for sure. Um, okay, my next one is, um, an art crime book, um, that I can't remember if I brought this up when we talked about art crime or not with by a writer I'm obsessed with. And this book was, um, nominated for an Edgar, but like, funny enough, I don't even know if she considers herself a thriller or a crime writer. Um, I think all of her books have elements of them in it, but that's, I think,

what makes them a good entry point. But this book is called fake like me, by, Barbara Borland, who is a writer I am absolutely obsessed with. And her book, The Force of Such Beauty that came out, I think, in 2022 is like one of my all-time favorites and, like, truly, like, loved that book. And like, it was so funny because I read the description of that book online. Sorry, I had another chance to talk about the Force of Such Beauty, I guess. Here we go. I read the description of that book online and was kind of like, I don't know. It doesn't. doesn't totally speak to me. It's kind of like the story of a woman who's essentially a Megan Markle. Like she's not royalty herself, but she winds up married to the crown prince of a

small country. But the book is so beautiful, so absorbing. Her writing is so good. Like just like one of my favorite books of all time and I'm so glad I picked it up. And part of the reason I did is I think Amy Gentry posted about it on Instagram. It was like, this book is great. And like if Amy Gentry likes the book, I'm like, must read it. So I then went so cool. Oh my God. Isn't it a cool cover? It's like a phenomenal. Yeah, it's great. It's so good. And fake like me is great too. And so that's the one that's right before the force of such beauty. So that is the story of an artist. I think she's never named in the book, actually, the main narrator who kind of what Barbara Borland kind of seems to be doing as a larger project is like exploring different experiences of womanhood using kind of thriller tropes. And so the experience of this book is kind of like feeling like you're never good enough, feeling insecure, feeling like you're not the smartest person in the room. So this woman is an artist and she finally like makes a big sale at her gallery of these like,

I think she's painting the vices maybe. It's like seven or nine portraits or something. And in the first chapter, they all go up in this like terrible fire in her apartment building. So it's like this was going to be the thing that made her. This was. was going to be the thing that, like, could sustain her life. And they just burn up. And so she winds up, she can't tell anyone that, though, because then they'll cancel the sale and she won't get the money. So she winds up going to this famous art collective, like this art collective has this

kind of like almost like summer camp that they've taken over where people go to create things. But it's been closed for the last so many years because the woman who was kind of the most famous part of the art collective killed herself. And so they just shut it down. And so she, she winds up getting to go there so that she can work on her art and kind of without anyone knowing, recreate all of these art pieces. And then she gets kind of sucked into like, well, why did this woman kill herself? And what was the story? Like this particular artist is for her, her kind of like North Star. Like she doesn't see a lot of female artists who are like who she wants to be, but this woman is.

And so she starts to unravel, like, who was this person? What led her to this? And gets to some truly, like, shocking, crazy places. And it's a thriller without it being, like, it is what happened at the center of it, even a crime, but it is still a thriller. And it's very beautifully written, very lyrically written and raises a lot of questions of, like, what is art? Like, just in general.

And, like, what makes some art valuable? And it just like I truly loved that book. And I think that that's one that I would recommend to anybody regardless of whether they were a thriller writer, reader or literary fiction or whatever. Like it's got elements of a lot of things. There's a beautiful slow burn romance in it. Like it's just, it's so great. Nice. You have me convinced I need to start reading some Barbara Borland.

Oh, you got to. They're so good. They're so good. I also just pulled up her author profile. and she has the same glasses as me. She has dark hair and bangs. She, yes. Is it narcissistic that I want to read your books?

No, I don't think so. Like, you guys both have a very cool look and aesthetic that's very similar in a lot of ways. And she's just like, yeah, yeah, truly somebody I'm like enchanted with as a writer. Oh my gosh. I've got to read these. Yeah. I have these to my list. Mm-hmm.

Which is what happens every week. I totally. which is good more books more books is good I'm fine with it but yeah that sounds really that sounds really cool it is I think it's

it is really interesting when books that are art talk about what art is or like explore that as well there was Sarah Ezric Zhang yeah yeah yeah yeah

yeah He did the other me and that was like an artist who like walks into another timeline of her life and then like kind of doesn't have all of the same art skills but like it also is still in her because it's like inherent to her

totally that was that was one that I read that was like very cool in the way that it explored the artist experience basically yeah totally totally her stuff is really cool for sure I know I want to read her newest one I did not get in on that galley but it is out now

so I need to like bump it up but I got denied for it and I was like I am such a big fan of hers you're like come on really you want me to read this and talk about it I promise I still will when I read it though because that one had their newest ones called When I'm Her and it's like about friends who whose friendship fractured went separate ways,

but one of them feels like her life was ruined because of the other friend, then like finds a way where some program comes about where she's able to swap lives with that person and she feels entitled to that life. And then she gets in her life and is like, oh my God, there's a lot going on that I can't handle. So I'm like very intrigued by that as a concept. It sounds so interesting.

Totally. It sounds like a great concept. And I love that she does these kind of speculative thrillers a little bit where it's not like fully like, you know, a dystopia or a different reality, but like that there is this like magical ability to do this thing that you can't. And I love that. It's like sci-fi light kind of. Exactly. Mostly thriller. Yeah. Totally. We could also call those like those books might be like gateway sci-fi books almost, you know? Yes. Yeah. And I'm like only a gateway sci-fi reader. Totally. It fits. Yeah. Now I kind of wish I had one of those on here, but I don't. But my next one was another one that I remembered. It's again, I read it years ago, but it just like sticks in my brain because of how fun it was to read. And it's more domestic suspense, which I feel like fits really well for gateway thrillers. Totally. It's called Never Have I Ever by Joshua and Jackson.

Oh, it's just, it has so many of my favorite things in it. But basically we have two characters. Our first one is Amy Way. And she's like very proud of her like simple life that she has created for herself in the suburbs. And she and her best friend Charlotte run this book club that's like really, popular in their neighborhood. She's super devoted to her husband and her 15-year-old stepdaughter and she has a new baby boy. So basically her life is just going great.

But since we're in a book, we know that's going to change. So this sultry and magnetic new woman, Rue, joins the book club, basically, like, moves into the neighborhood and joins the book club. and everyone just loves her and she's just like drinking with everyone and kind of getting everyone tipsy and having some naughty harmless fun but they're also all kind of telling her their secrets and so when Rue is alone with Amy one night she tells her that if she doesn't give her what she asks for what she thinks she deserves, she's going to make Amy pay for her sins one way or another. And so we don't know what Amy did, but all of a sudden, Amy is terrified. So clearly

she did something. And so this is another one that turns into a cat and mouse. I'm pretty sure we're in both perspectives. I'm about 90% sure. I read that five years ago. But I'm pretty sure we're in both perspectives. So that's kind of funny that I have my two cat and mouse ones right at the end. But it was like sometimes domestic suspense is either a little bit too slow since it's so involved in emotion sometimes or sometimes it feels like it's like the same plot in a lot of them. And this one just felt like it kept switching like you thought you knew where I was headed and then it was not where it was headed. And it was just kind of like all over the place and very unique,

all over the place in a good way. And I just, it's also another one too where you're kind of torn. You're like, who am I pulling for? And like who is good and like what is good in a broad sense. So I had a lot of fun reading this one. Oh, that's great.

That's a great recommendation. I know of that book, but I also haven't read that book. I feel like every time I talk to you too, my TVR list just expand. fans, which like, yeah, it was already enormous. You have some of the authors I've never heard of is like the other part too. Totally, totally.

And like, I think I've heard of the ones, all the ones you've mentioned, but like it does remind me. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that book I've been wanting to read it. I should go read it. So, like, that sounds great. It's so fun. Okay. I got to check out. I'm chasing the high of that book still.

Yes. Five years later, that's a good, that's a good sign. It is. Totally. okay I have I have like a bunch of honorable mentions and different things that I could talk about I mean I think um I have one I kind of wanted to end on but like or not end on necessarily but like one that was really like I wanted to hit but also makes me think of another one that I want to mention is like and I think these books are back in print but I don't remember Kelly Garrett's first books the Hollywood homicide books are yes they are great they are like um kind of similar to Billy Levine. It's a black woman in Los Angeles who becomes kind of like a PI out of necessity. She might have a different job title, but that's essentially her function as she's like

tracking down. And it's very like Hollywood centric. Like she's kind of hobnobbing with stars in different places. And they're just the really fun books that are somehow both like buoyant but also dark without being heavy, you know? And like I love all of Kelly. Herer, its writings, especially her later books, too. I'm a big fan of.

But these have this kind of like, it was really unique. It's a really unique space that I think the Hollywood homicide books have landed in. And I, they were out of print for a while, but I think they might be back in print. Fingers crossed. I mean, and also like Missing White Woman is a great one that's just out. It was amazing. So good. Totally.

Yeah, I know you can at least read them on Kindle, even if they aren't in print. Because I've been thinking about, I've read all of her other one, or I read like a sister and missing white woman. So I'm like, I need to get back into these Hollywood homicide ones too. They're great. They're really, really fun, really good. And then I also wanted to mention, can I mention one other one? Are we good?

Go for it. Okay. This book is a thriller and it's maybe too dark to be a gateway thriller in some ways because it is gory. But it's so unique. It's so much fun. I've been talking about it for a year. continue to talk about it. Patricia wants to cuddle by Samantha Allen. Do you know this book?

No. Okay. Struck herself in. So it is about basically like a Bachelor-esque TV show that is filming their final four and they go to the Pacific Northwest, this like remote island to go film it as this kind of like final four and we're camping. And it's really funny and has. this kind of like light tone that's making fun of, of course, shows like The Bachelor. But they're not alone on this island. They're on this island with a Sasquatch, Patricia, of the title, along with like a lesbian death cult. And like, it is truly bonkers and campy and fun and unique.

Like, I love a book where I can tell the writer was having fun the whole way. You know what I mean? And this book, you're just like, this person had fun writing this every step of the way. And I mean, whether or not she did, I believe it's the author is a she, Samantha Allen, whether or not she did like, or identifies as a she, whatever. Whether or not she did, it feels that way. There we go. Okay.

Just, and like it feels like that the whole way through. And it's like, it definitely has. thriller elements. It definitely has action elements. It definitely has gory moments. Like, if you were to visualize what, like, it's a, but it is, it's like the most fun I've had reading a book in years. And so, like, that one definitely has to go on my gateway thriller list. Yes. I think that counts. Like, the cover, it looks campy as well. Like, I could tell from the cover, like, the vibe of what totally. It was going to be. And I, I think we've, I think we've even talked about it. I must sucker for things that include reality TV, stuff like that.

So now you have, I have never heard of this book. Oh my gosh, you've got to read it. It's so good. It's so funny. I might reread it this summer because it's just like such a perfect summer book. And it like does such a good job of balancing being like hilarious and fun with also like deeply dark. But like it's like it was I came out of it.

I'm still talking about it. I've been talking about it for a year. I loved this book. Oh my. gosh. Yeah. Okay. Also, I'm looking at it on good reads right now. But for my girlies who like electronic versions or Kindle versions, it's only $1.99 on Kindle too. So. So no excuse not to go grab it. Yeah. No excuse not to read it. And it's 250 pages. So it sounds like it's like one of those fast reads too. Definitely. I think if it took me two days, I'd be shocked. Do you know what I mean?

Especially because it's so readable. Like you just get like sucked in. It's multiple POVs. So you're looking at POVs from one of the contestants, from one of the producers, and I think a couple of other people in there too, but it's just like, ugh, yeah, like definitely read this book. That's so good. Yeah. That's reminding me in some ways. So at the beginning, at the top of this episode, when you mentioned kind of stuff that's a little bit more like contemporary fiction or a camera boy you said that made me think of it. But the real deal by Caitlin Devlin, I've talked about multiple times but i really really liked that one too and that one is like one where the like adult women who well in their 20s early 20s who used to be on like a dance mom's esk reality tv show growing up

are like all gathered for a reunion and all we know in the present timeline is that the show stopped abruptly for a certain reason but we don't know what the reason was and And it's told back and forth as well. So you're in the present and you go back to the past and alternate through it. But it's another one that wouldn't, it doesn't even have the thriller or mystery classification on goodreads. But it's, there's a mystery at the whole heart of it because you're trying to figure out what caused the show to end and why their relationships are so strained.

And I actually talked to Caitlin about it too. She was on the podcast, but like she reads a lot of thrillers. And so I think that she was like, that kind of was like in my mind to pace it that way. But that's one where like if you really just like don't even really want like there's no murder, there's nothing like that. But it's like a very fun one that still centers around reality TV. So that's my that's my bonus or my, what did you? Honorable mention. That's my honorable mention.

Yes. Great. That's a great one. Yeah. Yeah. And totally. I feel like once you start thinking about like the lens of like how often writers of most fiction just use mysteries to like pull you forward as a reader like if you see it everywhere

like there's always something you're reading to try to understand or figure out which is the same as reading a thriller essentially yeah it totally is