Bookwild - Grief, Meteoric Fame and Parasocial Relationships: Ashley Winstead's The Future Saints

Episode Date: February 3, 2026

This week, Gare and I talk with Ashley Winstead about her new contemporary fiction (tragi-comedy but don't tell Ashley's publicists we said so) The Future Saints! We dive into her inspiration for the book, how it changed over the years through rounds of edits, and her fascination with ambitious women and how the world reacts to them.The Future Saints SynopsisThis is a love story, but not the one you’re expecting.When record executive Theo meets the Future Saints, they’re bombing at a dive bar in their hometown. Since the tragic death of their manager, the band has been in a downward spiral and Theo has been dispatched to coax a new—and successful—album out of them, or else let them go.Immediately, Theo is struck by Hannah, the group’s impetuous lead singer, who’s gone off script by debuting a whole new sound, replacing their California pop with gut-wrenching rock. When this new music goes viral, striking an unexpected chord with fans, Theo puts his career on the line to give the Saints one last shot at success with a new tour, new record, and new start.But Hannah’s grief has larger consequences for the group, and her increasingly destructive antics become a distraction as she and her sister Ginny—her lifelong partner in crime—undermine Theo at every turn. Hannah isn’t ready to move on or prepared for the fame she’s been chasing, and the weight of her problems jeopardize the band, her growing closeness with Theo, and, worst of all, her relationship with her sister—all while the world watches closely. The Future Saints’s big break is here—if only they can survive it. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week, Gare and I got to talk with a podcast favorite, Ashley Winstead, about her newest contemporary fiction, The Future Saints. This one very much has the vibes of like Daisy Jones and the Six. It's about a band's really meteoric rise and how they kind of handle it. So here's what it's officially about. This is a love story, but not the one you're expecting. When record executive Theo meets the future saints, they're bombing at a dive bar in their home. town. Since the tragic death of their manager, the band has been in a downward spiral, and Theo has been dispatched to coax a new and successful album out of them, or else let them go.

Immediately, Theo is struck by Hannah, the group's impetuous lead singer, who's gone off script by debuting a whole new sound, replacing their California pop with gut-wrenching rock. When this new music goes viral, striking an unexpected chord with fans, Theo puts his career on the line to give the Saints one last shot as success, with a new tour, new record, and new starts. But Hannah's grief has larger consequences for the group, and her increasingly destructive antics become a distraction as she and her sister Ginny, her lifelong partner in crime, undermine Theo at every turn. Hannah isn't ready to move on or prepared for the fame she's been chasing, and the weight

of her problems jeopardize the band, her growing closeness with Theo, and, worse of all, her relationship with her sister, all while the world watches closely. The Future Saints Big Break is here, if only they can survive it. This one is so emotional. It's also very fun. Ashley said she's not supposed to call it a tragic comedy, but I'm here to say that if that is a genre that you found yourself enjoying, I think you'll really enjoy this book too. The audiobook is really fantastic. I've really enjoyed listening to it. And Gare even makes a little appearance part of the way through the book. So that being said, let's hear from Ashley. I knew Gare would be wearing something light and neutral.

Yes. I knew Kate would be wearing pink and or purple. And so I was like, okay, we'll do a bold in a different color just for the palette. I thought about trying to match you Kate, but I was like, no, let Kate own pink and purple. Yeah, everyone can wear pink and purple too. But we have good contrast now. Yes. exactly. And then I'm Mr. Neutral because I don't have any colors in my wardrobe. You're Mr. Neutral,

but I know this from watching y'all's podcast episodes. I know how it goes. Yeah. That's the deal. The gray in the middle. Overthinking award for your podcast. You are in good company here. If anybody has ever read your books, they know that you pay extreme attention to detail. Oh, yeah. They know neuroses and obsessions that are. Part of the package. Well, if people can't tell, which they always can, because you all clicked on this episode and clicked play. But we are back with Ashley Winstead, which is always so much fun. It was actually, I was talking to Tyler about this recently.

He was like, she was legit your first interview. And I was like, oh, yeah, she was. So this is like every single year. It's so exciting. I know. Look at us. Look at the empire we have built. Yeah.

Look where how far we've come. I love it. It's an honor. Thank you for having me back. Oh, yeah. So we're going to talk. I mean, we'll talk about all kinds of things, but we are mostly or generally talking about the future saints, which if you have not read it yet, why, I'm just kidding. Or I'm not kidding. I still need to get it. There's cheers. Oh, my well, my well-worn baby. Y'all, this is my favorite. cover that I've had so far. I love, I think she's like elegant. Yes. Looks like a band poster. Love the vibes. Yes.

The Ombray spine looks great on a bookshelf. Like the texture, I don't know if you have an arc gear, so you probably can't feel it. But when they came, it totally, the finished copies, they totally surprised me because it's glossy on the top half and like gritty mat on the bottom. And I was told that at Atria, because I got to visit my publisher for the first time ever, which would be fun to talk about. Yeah, it was so exciting. But they told me that back in the day, publishers used to use ground-up peanut shells to create that gritty texture.

Isn't that a cool piece of trivia? And obviously, because of allergies, they can't do that anymore. So I forget what they've moved to, probably like some synthetic whatever. Yeah. But yeah, it's got, so I was like petting my books when my husband walked in and he was like, what in the world? He's like, we've reached a new stage with you. Yes. A new stage of your mania. That's so cool.

I just want to run to a bookstore so that I can go get a book. I know and feel all the books. I'm going to my bookstore on Saturday to get my finished copy. So I'm wondering if it's going to be the same in Canada. Oh, yeah. Good question. I will, everyone stay on pins and needles because I will let you know this Saturday. And also because all my books that have come out in Canada

always come out in paperback in Canada. That's what I was going to ask. Yeah, so I actually don't know the, yeah, like I haven't seen a Canadian version of Future Saints yet. Usually I have like a little example. I just got the new Karen Slaughter, the file of Bobby. Oh, gorgeous. A lot of them have like these little.

Uh-huh. Okay. And a lot of them come, even though their paperbacks come with deceled edges. I don't know if you can see that. Obsessed with the deceled edges. All of my Canadian books have deceled edges. And I'm like fabulous. I didn't know it was like all of them. And this has a really nice texture on it. It has like that kind of gritty texture. And then the the lettering is. Well, I mean, they're pulling out all the all the stops for Karen Slaughter for sure. Hey, you know, like two of my first lives when COVID hit and I was doing Instagram. lives all the time were you and Karen Slaughter. Wow. First of all, what a difference in stature and but

don't you love it when like big megastarves like Karen Slaughter are badass, cool people? And you're like, oh, sometimes good things happen to people who deserve it. I had incredible people that I did lives with, but my first three were incredible badasses who were cool because it was Karen Slaughter, you and Jessica Knoll.

Oh, yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, speaking for your favorite fences there. I know. Right there. My author version of TLC. Yeah. Yeah, I would pay anyone a lot of money to like be in a room on a panel in a live with those two women because I'm such a big fan. Karen Slaughter's hilarious too I got to see her at a library

here she's so funny She's very funny Like her irreverence is off the charts And I'm a very big fan of Her love of cats Oh yes Yeah It brings me a lot of joy

And I've never met her But I've seen her a million times And I'm obviously too nervous to talk to her At Thriller's Best in New York City So like she just She's kind of She's a little Chulture of stature.

Yes. And she just bops around the hotel, The Roller Fest, and you're like, it's Karen Slaughter. I know. She's so cute. She's so cute. She actually said that to being alive. She was like, if you are an animal, you are completely safe in any book that I write. But if you find your name on the first page of one of my books, not looking good for you.

I was like, that is completely fine with me. But that is pretty brilliant, though. I like that. I'm going to say the first, well, I don't know about the first page, but I'm going to like, no animals will ever be harmed in any of my books because I cannot even handle the suggestion of a fictional, like a fully made up, like, cartoon dragon. Mm-hmm. I am sweating.

Like, how to train your dragon was a very stressful watching experience for me. Anyway. You're both younger than me, but the never-ending story. like traumatized me as a child. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. God. We're just some emotional people here.

Okay, guys. Only with animals. Only with animals. I'm like, humans tell me more about how they've died. Make that being like 20 pages. I'll be fine. Yeah. Let's do it. Yeah, I don't know. It's just the vulnerability and the innocence of animals.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Well, it's a very murdery conversation for your, already. For your non-murdery book. I know. Good point.

Good point. Which is okay, because you have flinty of murdery ones. Yes, I do. I do. And I mean, there is a dead body in the future saints. That's true. There are moments. Yeah.

There are, I, no matter, through my romance, my three, thrillers and now contemporary fiction or whatever genre we are calling Future Saints. Everyone has their own label. I've been saying contemporary fiction too. Perfect. Love it. Book for fiction, upmarket. In my head, I call it a romantic tragic comedy.

I love that. Just because I'm annoying. I was told explicitly by my publisher not to use that phrase because it's confusing. And I just can't stop. Not. Yeah. So I'm everyone's favorite. in marketing because I'm like, I love a tragic comedy.

Right? You still get the ups as well. Yeah. I think I discovered that phrase when I read Alison Bechtel's Fun Home. Oh, okay. Because, you know, the graphic, the very famous graphic novel and it's Fun Home or like, colon, a tragic comedy. And I was like, oh, that's good. And it is indeed. Like one of the best. I think the show shrinking is where I learned the term. on Apple TV. Apple TV. I still need to watch that. That's with Jason Eagle. Yes. And Harrison Ford.

And Jessica, why can't I think of her last name? Jessica. Oh, she's... Yeah. Oh, from Williams. Williams. Jessica, from the Daily Show. Oh, yeah. She's awesome. I love her. Oh, she's fantastic in the first season. There's a whole running bit about her emotional support water bottle. So, you know... Wait.

all of us are on board. Cheers. When you guys, when I just like made a, oh no, face, it was because mine had tipped over and I was like, oh, God, the waters, the ocean will be unleashed. I always try to like gently put mine down when we're recording and I always like peeing it off something. I'm like. I know.

I had like this bottom part, the like, whatever this is, this grippy silicone part. It was pink. because it was with the water bottle and then it just fell off one day and I don't know where it fell off and I was like it's whatever and like you're saying It looks purposeful

I know well I bought a new one Oh okay Gotcha I'm like I don't know Because at first I was like Oh this won't be a big deal But what you're saying like every time I put it down It was like

Dono Yeah Oh my God And also Quick quick note To any car manufacturers Who are listening Yes

Um, please design cup holders that are a little bit larger. Yes. For these purposes. I know, even my smaller water bottle doesn't fit in my cup holder anymore. So it's just like in the passenger seat now. No, I'm like, what is this for a water bottle for ants? I bought a new water bottle and I like was so excited to like go run my errands with it. And I like went to put it down and it still doesn't fit.

And I was like, oh, no. I know. It's like, God, you're holding it between. your knees and you're driving. You're like, oh, God. Or, like, falls over and makes, like, the loudest sound ever. And literally every single time I go to a book event, like to moderate at Murder by the Book, I always, obviously, bring my emotional support water bottle in the, in the passenger seat. And my car is always like, your passenger needs to wear its seatbelt. Like, that's a freaking water bottle, you jerk. And so the entire time, it's like, be ding, ding, ding, me. I know. Yeah, I have been known to

or buckle the seatbelt for my water bottle. Smart, yeah. I think that's where I'm going. I let mine roll around, but I do buckle the seatbelt if I get Taco Bell. Oh, yeah. Nice. Because I'm like, you know. Precious cargo.

Yeah. I got to protect it. I can't mess around with that. No. Oh, ooh, come to Texas and we'll get you some, no shade to Taco Bell, because I also love it, but we'll get you some really good text mix. I would love that.

There was a place that I went to, when I lived in Boston, there was a place called Lolitas. And it was the best Mexican food I have ever had in my entire life. And they give you, like, grapefruit sorbet that they pour tequila on top of to, like, cleanse your palate before you eat. Yes, please. That's a little amoeosh. Yeah. So, like, any Mexican, like, I don't care if it's Taco Bell. I don't care if it's Chipotle.

I don't care if it's, like, the most. most grand, like, fine dining of Mexican food. Like, I will immediately go there. That is my jam. Me too. I love. Sobi and I'm a husband. We just planned a Mexico City trip for March because, yeah, we've never been.

And we are a two-hour flight from Mexico City. And all of our friends have family in Mexico City. So they go all the time and are just like, you guys are missing out entirely because it's like one of the best cities in the world. So, very excited to cross that off my bucket list. I, like, randomly got hyperfixated on it when I read more than you'll ever know by Katie QTHA's. Because it was so, it was like a character in the story. And I was like, this place sounds cool. I am so excited for her next book that she has been working on.

The Emma's? Yes, the Emma's. I was like the three Emmas, but I forget what the, I know there are three emmas in it but it might be called the emas. Katie, sorry if I'm butchering this. Oh no, you're okay. Very excited. I am too. It's really good. She does like an Odyssey. She does like

an Odyssey with her books. You just like get so much out of them and it takes you on such a wild ride. I know. Which is also the same for you. That's what I was going to say. We are talking about people who write very memorable characters. Thank you guys. And sweeping, sweeping narratives.

Thank you. But with the Future Saints, for anyone who doesn't know, it is about, I mean, it's about a lot of things, but it is about a band called the Future Saints and the lead singer Hannah, who is going through some grief. She's going through some things. And Theo, who comes in to kind of manage the band. and then they start getting really, really famous after kind of like almost dying out as a band, which is really poor.

No, no. That's, oh my God, it's so relaxing to not have to elevator pitch your own book. Thank you so much, Kate. Because we would still be here. I'd be like on page two of the book. And then what happens is really need to work on that skill. I do have like a silly funny question up front. All the questions.

Because I don't, yes, it's in the synopsis. So Hannah's sister, who she was really close with, Jenny, died recently as we meet her. And then we were actually talking about this in the episode, oddly, that's going to come out tomorrow in the real world. We're recording this on January 29th. but Gare had this great idea to guess try to predict what some of our favorite 2026 books would be. We're also talking about Hot Girl Murder Club and I had the realization that there are two dead sisters in both of your books this year. So do you think there's a reason for that or like did it just my sister's like sweating. I know what if your tarot cards said.

Okay. Do you want to hear something absolutely crazy? Yes. Because, and I'm going to reveal, like, details about things that I should not. But it's because this question could not be more timely. The Midnight is the Darkest Hour and Boyfriend Candidate, which I wrote back to back, back like 2022, 2023, they are a thriller and a rom-com about librarians in the South who have to confront, like, various things. Rom-com, love and infamy,

you know, religious trauma and murder in the thriller. Yeah. In this year, Future Saints and Hot Girl Murder Club are both set in Los Angeles primarily and they're about rising star singers with dead sisters

who get famous for very unpredictable reasons. and I swear I do not plan this, that this is just somehow it comes together. I've already turned in my next contemporary fiction book, Draft One. Got my edits back today, so that's fun. We'll be looking at those when I'm emotionally prepared. But it is about a, this is the super T, but it is about a writer who goes back to a friend's

summer wedding weekend to confront her ex and all of her friends about the tell-all book she's writing about them. Ooh. And my, yes, and my thriller pitch is that I just sent in to my editor and I let, that's kind of how I do it. I let them choose among like a small number that I'm very emotionally attached to and would be happy writing about. Yeah.

Just shows my thriller pitch about a family. drama, Succession-esque thriller at a summer wedding weekend in like the Northeast where a woman goes back and there's someone she was like romantically involved with. I was pitching it as the summer, the summer I turned pretty, adult summer I turned pretty, but murder meets succession. So the pitch will get a lot better, I promise, by the time. By the time I like actually announce and talk about it, but I stopped in my tracks earlier today getting my cup of coffee and I was like, oh, fuck. I've done it again. Like every single year. I write like the same book in two different, wildly different genres.

That's impressive. That's amazing because they're so different. Yeah. But also it's iconic for your fans because it's kind of. of like a choose your own adventure. Yes. Right. Like the contemporary girlies who don't like thrillers are being fed and the

thriller girls who don't like contemporary fiction are being fed. And then those of us more could you want. We're obsessed with both. Just get. And then those who like both get like two Ashley Winstead bucks in a year and are just like this is why I'm glad to be alive during this time. Well, first of all, I love you. But all, and second of all, I truly do not know how this is happening and happening three years and a row. because it's not just me being like,

oh, to save time on research, which would have been smart of me. That wasn't even, it wasn't even up to me. It's like other people kind of choosing it. And there we go. So yeah. It's one of the weddings, me and Jacob Allorty.

What's that? Is one of the weddings me and Jacob Alorty? I know it should be. I will gladly sacrifice myself and be murdered in one of your books. I, okay. I'm definitely going to keep that in mind. Kate, you will find your name in

Hot Girl Murder Club. Oh, my God. I had to do it. For everyone who hasn't heard us say it yet, Gare is in the future saints. Yes. With Jacob and Lordeal. I know.

And originally, I'd written that, like, I'd written, and next, coming up next, because it's like on this late show. Yep. And with Jimmy Kimmel. And he was like, Next, we have Jacob Allardy and Gare Billings who are here to talk about their recent wedding or like the honeymoon stage. And my copy editor was like, what?

You don't get it. He was like, has he come out as bisexual or queer? And I was like, no, this is a shout out to my friend. And she was like, I don't think we can do this. And I was like, fine. I'll remove the wedding part, but the rest is staying in there. So just know you're there to talk about your honeymoon and your wedding and everything with Jacob. In my heart.

A very quick love story. Yeah. Yeah. I love my first sight. I love it. It's wild too since like your editors are are choosing them. So it's like it's also not entirely like you making it happen. But like clearly the universe just wants both flavors of a similar location or something. I know. And I mean, it's turning out to be a pretty cool thing. Yeah. Because, you know, there are certainly, like, pros to this, you know, because I go deep into my LA phase for this, the last year and a half to two years, writing in that setting.

And then now I'm about to go deep into, like, the summer wedding vibes, which, you know, as a woman in her 30s is something I'm deeply familiar with, you know, like the constant summer wedding. But yeah, no, I'm, I'm kind of weirdly kismet things going on over here. Do you keep, like, so if you pitch them like three ideas and they pick one, do you keep the other two? Like, is there just like a list somewhere of like ideas that you have? Yes. And this is why if I ever, well, I just lost my wallet last week, which sucked. Um, and, and, and, you know, obviously it's been kind of a nightmare. I had a weirdly large amount of cash. And, and, you know, I had a weirdly large amount of cash. it because I'd just come back from like book tour and Egypt and all these things where I'd

taken out money to have. So that sucked. But if anyone ever got my phone, I would be so heartbroken not only because of all the like passwords in it. But my notes app is where I keep all of my ideas. And it's like they start in the notes app and then I'll migrate them for safekeeping onto work. and that I like refine them when I migrate them. But man, that would be absolutely tragic.

So yes, I keep them. I keep all the ideas. And in fact, Hot Girl Murder Club, Gare, you will remember this deep cut from our DM sessions years ago. But Hawk Girl Murder Club started its life as my sorority thriller. And my editor would, like, it kept getting rejected and rejected. And I kept, like, refining it. it. And I, like, had a really clear idea of what I wanted this book to be about, you know. And once I

took it out of Greek life and put it in Hollywood and made all a lot of the dynamics, like, celebrities, and all of a sudden it was like, you know, went over like gangbusters. And so that is what I'm going to, that's kind of what I do is I like, noodle on things, try to figure out what's not grabbing the editor about my idea. Like, oh, man, there's one that I pitched that I really thought my editor was going to pick. And I can't say too much about it because I still want to write it. And I don't want anyone else to beat me to the scoop. But it was about the dark side of ambition and kind of pitting women against each other

and like very Lady Macbeth sort of vibes. And I am determined to write this book. I just have to, I pitched it as my first paranormal. So that might be the thing that was the strike against it. But anyway, I have ideas. I love that. I actually, when Hot Girl Murder Club was announced, I was like, the wheels were spinning.

And I was like, I wonder if this is the reworked, version of the sorority slasher that like you talked about years ago. Yes. So that is, yes, you were right on the money. That is exactly what it is. And I just like kept working on it. Yeah. And correct me if I'm wrong.

But I think when we were talking about that is when you said, if this gets published, this is the book that's going to have your Easter egg in it. And then you moved the Easter egg with me and Jacob Lordy to future saints because. That's exactly right. Because future saints was a sure thing. And I wasn't sure about my, yeah, about my thriller. Yes, that's exactly right. Oh, my God.

Don't worry. Lots more Easter eggs. I could do like the fun trivia facts of Ashley Winstead on like Wikipedia. Yes. Behind the scenes. I don't think anyone knows more behind the scenes details. Over the years, you have seen all my flop book covers that I've been like, ugh.

Which were not flops. Help me. Yeah. Like the ones, well, you see the the ones that are the winners first too. Yeah. But you're like the only, like in the past, Gare has been the person I've come to.

Because I trust your aesthetic so much and you do beautiful, you know, jobs with your movie posters and everything. And I'm like, Gare will help me articulate why this sucks and like what I want to change about it. So that has been. Those are my like, nobody can get my phone because it's like all the secrets of. of DMs and stuff.

All the DM secrets. I'm sure I'm not the only author doing that too. So you probably... No. Your DMs are full of secrets. It's you. Oh, okay. Nobody else...

Trust me with this people. Everyone else respects, like, the NDAs and their contracts and, like, are professional authors. And I'm like, nope. They're just like, hmm, I don't know if I will tell him, because then he will try to boss and take over and be like, you have to do this, this and this and this. I guarantee that's not true. I'm so excited now because I've been dreaming of that book

since you told me about it. Yeah. And I love it. I love the Hollywood theme or setting, I should say. Even more than like Greek life in college because I feel like it's like very timely. Yeah. There's like so much coming out.

So I don't know. And you know, not to kind of like psycho- analyze myself too much, even though I know I'm speaking Kate's language. Oh, right. Because the first, I mean, the first, like, talk that we did together, Kate, I remember, like, the one you were referencing earlier, I remember, first of all, we talked forever, and it was the most, like, in-depth conversation I had ever had about any one of my books, where we took it to such a level of, like, depth of meaning.

where I'm sure I like gushed in the interview about how amazing it was. But afterwards I was like, oh my God, I've never had that substantive a conversation about my work. I hadn't to date. And we were, you know, we were talking about dreams and it was early days. And, you know, just so that was amazing. Anyway, sorry, that was a weird side. No, that was cool because I do remember we talked about it after it. And I was so nervous because I had never done an interview.

interview either like at all so like that whole day I was like oh my god what did I get myself into and I was I just was more introverted still because I just hadn't put myself in new situations yeah so I was so nervous and then when you said the questions were great I was like okay maybe I do know how to do this but oh my god you so know how to do that I what's cool about what you just said is I just interviewed um someone who has the debut book uh coming out and the episode hasn't aired yet. But I was like reading some of the parts that like really, or we were talking about the parts that really stood out to me in the book. And she like I saw on, I feel like I saw on her face the moment that she was like, oh my gosh, someone is like talking about like this fantasy world I

created and like has a question about it. And I was like getting goosebumps in the interview. And I was like, this is so emotional. So yeah, it is cool having those moments with people. Well, because it's such a gift to be, like, read. I don't mean to sound cheesy, but I think we all understand that, like, attention and care are gifts you give other people. And so much of what's hard about writing books is just getting anyone to, like, notice you or pay attention to you, let alone, like, spend real time and attention with your work. so it's such a gift. I have no doubt that that, like, touched that author a lot because I know it touched me. Oh, I love that.

I have to hop on here, too, and say, Kate, I think that, especially for authors, social media right now is, like, very hard because people are writing book reviews that have to meet a certain, like, character limit for Instagram. Or they're doing TikToks where they're like, yes, no, maybe. And you get only yes, no, maybe. The way that you've used social media to build on people's love of reading and create like your own platform where you can dive deep into things that people used to like write articles and newspapers for and that's the only way can see it.

Like you've used social media to make your love of reading better for authors than other forms of social media have. And I think that's incredible. That's such a great point, Garrett, because. I mean, increasingly we see like serious sustained attention to books. Like that used to be the realm of book reviews, like coverage that you would get in like New York Times or Washington Post or Atlantic or salon, whatever. And like people don't do that anymore.

There's there's very little book coverage. I mean, of course it exists like flash in the pan every for really big authors and every once in a while. But my God, like that serious review or like really spending time, just authors don't get that anymore. Yeah.

So it is, I mean, oh my God, I watch too much Love Island in like one year of my life. And now I can't stop saying it is what it is, which is a total love islandism. Like, can I pull you for a chat? Lifeism. Yeah, it is. At this point in

26, it is what it is. And like, you just It is what it is. Yeah. It's the new Keep Calm carry on. Yes. Um, so what I was going to say really quickly is just about, about the Hollywood of it all is I think earlier in my career, I was really fixated on writing about college. Like, as you both know, I think I told you both, my agent was like, no more college. You've had, you've done it enough. Go somewhere else. And I was really, I was really, like, fixate on college because it had been such a formative place for me. And that was like a place

where I was really familiar with power dynamics and really interested in, like, working in that space to kind of show things that I was interested in. But as my life changed, as I became a writer, and like, I'm still, you know, baby writer, but, like, just started talking to people, going on book tours, like, actually, like, fielding interview questions. It was, like, this tiny little exposure to attention and, you know, strangers having opinions. Yeah, like, all of these things. And I think it was, Hollywood is kind of a natural place for my, like, interest. to transfer.

Because I think it's, both in Future Saints and Hot Girl, it has allowed me to like wrestle with and explore a lot of questions about what to do with attention. And especially if you're uncomfortable with it, especially if you're getting it for the wrong reasons. And just like what kind of creature you are when you're not just yourself as an individual, but this thing to other people who are having parasocial relationships.

with you. So anyway, I think that it kind of like, that kind of just clicked in my head that that's probably a pretty natural place for me to dramatize. I similarly got like, I got so hyper-fixated on Paris social relationships, especially when the heiress tour started to happen. And it was that same thing. Well, the heirs tour happened. And then similar to what you were just talking about, you know, how Taylor Jenkins Reid talks about how like Evelyn, uh, Carrie, Malibu, and Daisy Jones, where she talks about how she sees those four as all her grappling with, like, ambition and women who are ambitious and, like, what kind of what you're saying, like, when you rise to it quickly or suddenly, like, all of that.

So I had, like, just been reading her more. And I was like, oh, this is really fascinating. And then the heirs tour, how you feel about Taylor Swift was, like, really fascinating. parisocial phenomenon as well. Yeah. So my interests have tracked your interests. That's probably why. And for your own book that you're writing.

I do have a book where I technically have been writing about that. And then I got a little sidetracked by history and nonfiction, but here we are. I love it. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Well, I think like I love dark academia. Like I love a college study.

I will be 90 years old. So like, binging like a sorority drama. But like I also think like I find it very interesting too that like when you started off in your writing career, it was college, college, you know. And it was like college is kind of the first time that like people warn you about danger. Right. Like you are going to be an adult out in the own like in the world on your own for the first time.

Here are some of the dangerous things that could happen. like you have to kind of you know make sure that you're being an adult even though you're still a child and i feel you're on your own now kid yeah and like with your books there's always a theme of female empowerment as well as like kind of highlighting issues that women have that your female readers can relate to and that your male readers can kind of be like oh okay like i didn't really think of it this way until now. But also like when you go from college, like I feel like California and Hollywood is kind of the new college and the way that like you don't send a young woman to Hollywood without

warning her of some of the dangers that can lurk, you know, in the big city of lights. That is so interesting. I'm also realizing now, sorry that I just do all my. my like realizations when I'm on a podcast with you guys. I mean, I should be saving this for my therapist. But I just realized that after college is when I moved out to Los Angeles and worked in the entertainment industry.

So maybe I'm just tracking my life too. Well, so get excited for a bunch of Houston. Oh, that's true in like eight years. Yeah, exactly. Eight years. It'll be the domestic thrillers. So your books are like your era's tour.

Yes. That's so true. Oh my gosh. Okay. Oh, okay. Our neighbor dog is chatting. It's okay, bud. Yeah. We love a dog. I know. It's a little dog. Murphy's passed out on the couch, taking a nap. Aw, Murph. They both were asleep. Not now, but they love. One has roused them from their slumber. Yeah. That does lead to one of my questions. about the future saints because I think I mostly learned from when we were in Houston with you that you were even in like at least adjacent to the music industry in L.A. So was, do you think that idea came from kind of that? Like, where did the idea come from? And then also like, how did that experience probably help you write it? Yeah. I love that because I'm not going to lie.

I think they were pretty separate. And it was only until I started to think about going on book tour for the future saints that I was talking to my husband about, you know, things that I might say. And he's like, well, and you worked in the music industry for a year. And I was like, that's right. I did, didn't I? And then so I actually, I actually worked in the music industry in Nashville right after. college. So for a year. And simply because I graduated during the Great Recession, there were no jobs. I hadn't come up with the brilliant idea of going to grad school yet. So I was like, what the hell do I do with myself? And I had gotten rejected from all my MFA programs. So I thought, I can't be

a writer. Literally, the place that was hiring was this music business company. And it was a company that now sounds really cool. At the time, it was, like, a little far-fetched. But this woman, whose name I'm not going to say, because she's a terrible person, and so I'm not going to, like, have her sue me. But she hired me, and she had this idea. She was, like, could see into the future of the music industry.

I will give her that credit. She saw that with the advent of, like, Napster and the streaming platforms, musicians were increasingly not going to make money by selling their work, right? It wasn't going to be about like CD sales or streaming sales or what have you. And there needed to be another revenue source. And it was increasingly going to be touring, you know, the merch that comes with touring and brand sponsorships. Like this is the beginning of like SponCon and all that sort of stuff.

And so her company brokered. deals between corporations and musicians. So we're the people who put together the like Blackberry sponsors John Mayer tour or Casey Masterpiece sponsors Tim McGraw. So we were all, we were like sitting in all these rooms being like the synergy between your brand and this artist brand. I know. And then I, it was my job to then like go on tour, set up multi-million dollar like experience.

on tours for these companies, like the meet and greets. I was 22 years old. I graduated with an English creative writing and art history degrees, and I was in charge of the finances for these things. Wow. So I was like at 22, teaching myself how to use Excel on the job, which is all to say that, like, my real job, it turned out, was being one of, like, this group of young women that she had had,

who she sent out to schmooze get drinks with all these industry guys who had come through town and have meetings with her and they needed someone to like hang out with for dinners and drinks and so that was our real job anyway it was like this really um she paid us $22,000 a year and told us that if we complained there were a line of other people waiting for for that opportunity, who would pay her to work in the music industry. This is like the thing with the arts, right? It's always like this. Because people are so passionate about the arts.

The industries... But they will do it for free sometimes. Unfortunately, yeah, they will. And the industries have gotten used to being, like, exploitative. Anyway, so she did all this. We had this great year because we're all working our asses off. And instead of giving us, like, a bonus or anything like that, she took us all on an African safari with her.

Like on vacation with her. So, yeah, the stories I could tell. Anyways, the point of all of this is that some of the worst and most egregious characters in the future saints are very much drawn from the people that I met in the music industry. And as someone who has now worked in music, television, in Los Angeles slash Burbank and now the publishing industry though I'm on a different side

of it in the publishing industry I can say like without hesitation music is the most like tumultuous they walk the talk man like we're talking widespread substance

use very late nights like yeah that's real like that that was I got a a peek into that lifestyle for about a year and a half. And so that was always in my head. But I think the real reason that I wrote the Future Saints was because I'm obsessed with music.

I always have been, it's my family's love language with each other. It's like my dad was a real fan of rock and roll, like 80s hair bands and, yeah. And then very silly. like the man loved Evanescence and Papa Roach and like Lincoln Park and all these things

that you would not expect like a suburban father of four with his little like khakis and his little like bell his like cell phone clipped to his belt you know to be into and he made damn sure that all of his kids turned into like rock and roll fans like at age 10

he bought me my first CD for Christmas and it was no doubt's tragic kingdom which was great choice choice for me. So anyway, it's music has always, and, you know, like coming from college, my brothers and sister and I were always like, oh my God, did you hear the new arcade fire? Oh my God, did you, have you heard that blah, blah, blah. Like, this is how we love each other and connect in my family.

And as someone who has zero musical talent, I can only dream about, like, being, what it's like to be a lead singer or a musician on a stage. And my entire life, it has been my number one dream. Like, it is what I daydream about when I'm in the car, you know, on a road trip. And it's like what I would choose if I could have any job in the world. So this is like one way of getting a little bit of wish fulfillment is like writing this book about a rock star. sorry my cats are also making noises in the background um and it's weirdly the 17 year old who is strangely active right now conversation what's that she's just feeling this conversation yeah um yeah

oh boots okay so i'm having fun so i'm not gonna bother i'm thrilled that he's interested in something um he's immobile um because right now we're at the stage we're just like carrying him down the stairs, you know. We call it the funnuclear. Anyway. So, yeah, that's, that is where future saints came from is like the seeds of me always knowing I would write a book where I got to embody the experience of being a rock star. Oh, I love that. I love that too.

It is very immersive. Like, you do feel the rock star life. Thank you. And I think a little bit of it goes back to, so this book, believe it or not, I've been writing, I wrote it, it's, bleh, I took the longest to write it that I've taken any book. So the idea for it came to me in like early 2022 and I started writing it, you know, now three to four years ago. So I've been working on it for a really long time. and I started working on it around the time that I was preparing to go on my book tour for the last housewife. And it was my first ever book tour because my other books had come out during the pandemic.

So I had only done zooms, which can be nerve-wracking, but they have such a sense of security, right? You're just in your house. Yeah. And so I was preparing myself, like, emotionally and psychologically, to go around the country and talk about this book where I had bared, like, the insides of my heart and mind and soul and everything where I had bled on the page. And I was terrified. And so I started imagining a woman who was in the same position as me. and was so beyond caring about it because something much more important had happened to her.

So anyway, I think the seeds of Hannah came from me like thinking about and freaking out over the vulnerability of making something and then talking to people about it and, you know, trying to figure out how much of myself I was willing to show and dissect in front of other people. That would explain its emotional depth. Yeah. Yeah.

And I was like, I was surprised, too, because when I got it, it's relatively one of your shorter books. Yeah. Especially compared to your thrillers. That's saying so. That's saying a lot because it's like. a little bit longer than a normal book and it's one of my shorter books, I know. And I'm like, I'm reading it. I'm like, this was like such an emotional journey in one of her shorter books. So like you kind of feel that like love and effort that you put into it because it really was like an emotional odyssey.

You know, within like all of the characters, especially Hannah. Yeah. Man, I love an emotional. Thank you for saying that. because that's like the thing that I'm trying to achieve with every book is like this total odyssey, this journey. And always trying, like a woman is always going to like reach for catharsis and reach for some sort of like transcendent experience.

This is me being super nerdy. But because again, I write, you know, rom-coms and thrillers and like genre commercial fiction and I'm like, it's about transcendence and catharsis. And it's like, girl, you can do both out we can't. Yeah. It's like in multitudes. Doesn't it feel good though? Like having that be your goal and then seeing all of these people that are posting about it and seeing how emotional it is. Yeah. You know, like that's got to be really like satisfying. It really is. And it's a really interesting lesson for me, too, as a writer, because I would say, I think of this book will bury me and future saints as twin books like Yen and Yang. So they're my grief books.

And even though I started future saints before my dad passed away in 2022, it started its life, strangely, as a rom-com, like a zany, very, like, heavy on the humor and the romance rom-com. and long story short, I decided not to work with my existing publisher on to publish it. I took it out wide and was like onto the wide ocean and, you know, taking the risk of will it land anywhere. And the editor who I connected with the most about this book was essentially like in our Zoom call. You know, obviously, this is about a week after my dad died, so I'm like still in Florida at my mom's house having these Zoom calls. And of course, saying nothing about it to the editors I'm talking to because I don't want to terrify them being like, ah. But I get on the Zoom call with this, my lovely editor.

And she was like, so I really like this book, but I feel like it's the wrong genre. And I feel like inside of what you've written are the bones of a contemporary fiction novel. And I'm wondering, like, if I was to buy this from you, would you be open to completely gutting it? And centering on, like, pushing the romance to a subplot and focusing in on Hannah's relationship with her sister, you know, her journey through grief and with art, you know, making art in the midst of grief. And she's like, do you think you could like access grief and, you know, have an access to that sort of thing? And I was just like very calmly like, yes, I think that that is something that I could have like a really authentic. Wow.

Access to right now. And that sounds like actually the journey, you know, like the journey I want to go on with this. book, no matter what it takes. So sometimes the risk is worth it, like betting on yourself is worth it. Sometimes taking like the out-of-the-box path is worth it. And so that's what I did over the next three years is tore the house down to the studs and like completely rebuilt it. Wow. The only thing that stayed the same was Gare and Jacob Awarding. I love that. That's why it's a dual POV because I had originally written it as, you know, a rom-com.

That's why, you know, there's, I think hopefully, like, the best of my jokes stayed in there. Because I really wanted it to be light, you know? So, anyway, sorry, the point of this being that with this book will bury me, I just, like, put my grief really raw and unfiltered. on the page. Like, it's gritty, it's sad, it makes no apologies for itself. And I, and then with future saints,

I'm drawing from the same well of emotion, but it's this very, like, kind of more lighter-hearted, more balanced, version of the same thing. And the amount of, like, everyone is having so much more intensely emotional reactions to future saints than they did, this book will bury me. And so I'm

trying to like sit with that and take lessons from that. I'll, I'm sure maybe if I get the opportunity to talk to you guys on a future podcast, after I've reflected on it a little bit, I'll, I'll share like what I think. Like my brain is spinning like, is it because I published this book will bury me first? And people knew I lost my dad and it was hard to separate me from the character, Jane, and people get uncomfortable thinking about people they know grieving or suffering. It was just like too close, too soon. Is it because it really does make a difference to look at something sad through the lens of like humor or, you know, does that punch hit different? I don't know. These are the things I'm thinking about as a writer.

one of the things but it's not in the synopsis so we can cut it if you want but i wonder if like because jenny is like there so like yeah yes in the future saints like we are connected to her as a character too where like we aren't really with jane's dad yes i i think like it's kind of like the reader experiences the loss as the story progresses too okay you're so smart that's that's totally that's totally what it is and it's probably just a part of it I think it's obviously complex but people react to you

No I think you're so right because and I and it's so funny because I've read a few books recently to where I have thought to myself just like I will not say the name of these books or whatever but just because I'm going to

offer like a tiny critique but I've picked them up and I've read them And I've thought to myself, like, well, I don't know this character. So I don't have any emotions around why it sucks to lose them or, you know, vice versa. And I think you're exactly right is that you have to get invested in the character, the relationship, the romance, whatever it is to actually. To feel it that big. To feel it the way that the writer wants you to feel it. And I think just to go back to in my dreams, I hold a night.

for a second, probably the best thing, one of the best things my editor had me do in the revision process was beef up the beginning and early chapters in which I showed that group of college friends as friends, like as people who were falling in love with each other and counting on each other and having like their highs with each other so that you actually cared when they're unraveling. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think this book, will bury me too has like a lot of the like like I don't know what I'm trying to think it maybe even like the daily like her grief is so heavy and like it's more of the like rawer parts not that the future science isn't but it's kind of like it's just like always there like in the background

there and then like with future saints we're like oh my gosh jenny and hana are so fun together and then yeah and then we then happen I think like I'm not a very emotional person. So like if I go through something and I'm grieving something, like I am doing it by myself. Yeah. Openly going to like a friend's house and like crying on their shoulder or like calling somebody like crying. Like I will be how I was in public. And then when I'm by myself, I will be taking care of that grief.

But like grief is such a long process and there's so many different stages of it. I think that like with Jane, you got like the raw parts of grief where like she's kind of like licking her wounds in a way. Like she's kind of like it's her grief that she's dealing with, you know, with her mother. And then she uses the true crime community as like almost this like distraction. And that's really relatable because those are the kind of people who will grieve in private. it and then use something to like distract themselves. With Hannah, I felt like I was a little bit more emotional reading it because

Hannah was acting how I wish I could act at times when I'm breathing something because Hannah acts out in her grief. So like she's getting drunk. She's yelling at people. She's like unapologetic. She's acting out in all of these ways that like sometimes you wish you could just act out like when you're grieving. And I feel like that's why like,

They were both emotional, but like, that's why, like, the future saints felt a little bit more emotional to me. Because, like, there are times that, like, I am a Jane, but there are times that I wish I could have acted like a Hannah when I was reading something. I agree. Wow. That is so fascinating to me. Yeah, it's cathartic. So, like, experience it through someone. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, I wish I could get drunk and, like, throw a chair through a window. Yes. That's why, like, good. It's kind of the same with the good for her genre. of where like it feels nice to think about you know killing all of the evil men on a college campus because you're like yeah i know you're like i'll never get to do this exactly yeah instead of like being with a character as she goes through day to day suffering all the yeah the little aggression yeah yeah no that makes so much

sense. And I hope all the writers who are watching this are learning from my little natural experiment here and from the things that Gar and Kate are saying. I am learning a lot. That's the fun part about books

in general. Like it's to start so many different conversations and it's fun to read, which sounds really elementary, but I'm living for this like contemporary fiction side of you because I love like a character-driven thriller, obviously.

Yeah. Those are my jam. But like now I can kind of venture outside of the thriller genre because like you've kind of like grabbed me by the hand and guided me into reading outside of it. That's like the biggest compliment you could have ever. Yeah. I love like Taylor Jenkins read. and there was this book that I read

Andre N. Ordeca but it's how we name the stars and it deals with like grief and like toxic relationships and I like burst into tears when I like finished it and like through the book and was immediately like oh my god this is like soul crushing and now I kind of like am learning that like a very good character driven contemporary fiction novel is something that will also work for me. Yeah. I love that. That is, well, yeah, that's, it sounds like you, I don't know, I'm just happy to be part of that

journey. I thank you for going, being willing to go to all the genre places that I'm, I'm, like, that I'm going. Is there one that you like, oh, sorry, go ahead. me to it. No, you beat me to it. Okay. Is there a genre? Is there a genre? Let's just get it out of the way. that you haven't written at that you're dying to write that. Yes, fantasy. Fantasy, fantasy. Oh, my God. I started writing to write fantasy.

I remember you saying that. Yeah, that's how I started this whole game, this whole thing, is I wanted to be a fantasy writer, and that's how we got my agent. And in like a classic story of try hard overachievers facing their first obstacle and crashing out, I got that, you know, that edit letter from my agent and I was like, oh, too hard. Let's do something else, you know? Easier just write another book and then it was, that book was a thriller. So here I am.

But yeah, fantasy for sure. You guys would not believe how many fantasy ideas I have in my notes app and on my computer and how many like first 10 chapters of adult fantasy novels I have written. Um, there, yeah, first I have to get, you know, do my thing in thrillers and, right, and contemporary, because I haven't accomplished what I want to accomplish, um, in these genres. So I have, I have more work to do there. Um, but at some point in the future, I mean, I'll have a strategy conversation with my agent and my editors, um, and just say like, okay, I want to write, I really want to write, this fantasy finally, like, what can I put down to pick that up? Because writing two books a year right now, like, that would have to pause for me to, or at least I'd have to slot, kick something out to slot fantasy in. Especially, like I send world building. Yeah, sorry. No, you're fine.

But yeah, the world building itself is just different. I mean, I'm already writing fantasy size novels. That wouldn't have to change. Yeah, that I would have to, like my Asian, I actually have this conversation fairly often because I get really excited about these ideas that I have and I'll email her and she'll, she's, instead of being like, sounds like a great idea, can't wait to hear more. She's always like, girl with what time? You know? Like, she's like, when? When are you going to do it? Yeah.

I'm like, oh, you're such a pragmatist, Melissa. Is there like a, is there a, okay, so fantasy is. is another one that has such a wide range. I'm picturing like Lee Bardugo is what was coming to mine. That's probably because I want you to write somewhat dark magic fantasy. That is exactly what it is.

And in fact, when Lee, so my book that I got signed by my agent or could very easily be comps to Ninth House. Like that's what I wrote. to us now. When Bartiggo published Ninth House, I was like, oh, fuck!

I was like, now I can't do it. You know, I was, I was similar. It's bad. Yes, it was that. It was essentially like a girl coming into her own with dark magic at like an Ivy League institution that has this sort of like underground going on. I mean, I'm going to read it.

Like, I'm going to go back to college no matter what you say. I'm so happy. I'm so happy. Lee Bardugo did it because that means I got to read it and it was absolutely fantastic and let's be honest like she's the queen, she's always going to do something like the best

way you can. But I was also like that moment of I can't imagine but yes so that's that is I am an urban fantasy I'm like that girl

I've always and by that I mean like the Lee Bardugo ninth hour. as opposed to Six of Crows, you know, like universe. I am a, like, I was really big into the early a arts urban fantasy, like huge thing, like the Kate Daniels series by Lana Andrews, the Harry Dresden series by Jim Butcher. Every single book where it was like, And in the underground of the city of Chicago lives like a secret world of fay and vampires.

I was like seated. I love that. Give it to be injected in my veins. I had this really cool experience where in the lead up to future saints, I got to be a guest on V.E. Schwab's podcast, which the episode hasn't dropped yet. and I had like an uber fan girl moment where I got to tell her on the podcast that like her books are part of why I started writing again and like why I was like okay we're gonna do we're gonna like take another stab at this thing that really hurt our feelings you know years ago but I was at this fellowship I graduated I got my my

I got my PhD and I was at the summer fellowship. And it was like a week-long fellowship and I was supposed to be turning my chapters for my dissertation. Sorry to bore everyone to tears talking about my dissertation, but we'll get over it really fast. Turn the chapters of my dissertation into like the start of an academic article to get it published. And it was like all these other academic stars and these professors were there. And to kind of like workshop, our ideas and everything. And I was staying actually on campus. It was at Dartmouth.

And I was staying on campus in the dorms of Dartmouth, which was a very interesting experience. I was a 30-year-old to be, it was like way flashback. I went to the first day of this seminar. That night, I curled up in the dorm twin bed. and I had downloaded to my Kindle the first, like, I feel, I think it was like V. Schwab's really early. I can't remember if it was like the vicious

at that time duology, or if it was like the one, the kind of like these, oh, she had a different duet. This vicious duet. I'm butchering her titles. Sorry to the queen, but like... Graduous threads of power?

No, no. I think that was later essentially early v. Schwab urban fantasy and the Kate Daniels I had downloaded these books I cracked them open that night

I did not go to a single other day of that fellowship at Dartmouth they must have been like this girl died or like disappeared into the ocean

or something no one came to check on me so they weren't that concerned But like, I've stayed hold up in that dorm room, not doing my work, devouring the every single book by those two authors that they had available. And that was when I knew that, like, something inside of me had decided that academia was no longer for me. It was, like, not the thing I wanted to do anymore. I was, like, resisting and rebelling. Yeah.

And that I wanted to try writing books again. Like that was the moment. And so I got to tell Victoria that on the podcast. It was so cool. It was a very cool moment. It's amazing. Yeah. Oh, so good.

So fantasy is what we have to look forward to you sometime. And you'll never see me write historical fiction. Novel. This is too much work. My historical fiction friends. I know. I'm like, you're doing what now? Like you're like, I'm in an archive.

up to my elbows figuring out, you know, the kind of buttons that my main character would wear on a seafaring voyage. And I'm like, mm, that is not the life for me. No, thank you. And then my poor, like, my brilliant Sarah Penner, who I've come to know, she's, like, writes a book about, you know, the set in the, like, diving world or, like, sunken ships. And she's out there diving and doing all these things. and I'm like that level of immersive research.

And no one gets hate mail worse hate mail than historical fiction writers because all of their readers are so attuned to the details. God bless them. Right. And if they get something wrong, oh, they're going to hear about it.

The only hate mail I get is, you know, people telling me I'm going to hell for what I write about. Like, my politics are bad. and a surprising amount of hate mail for Ashley Flowers. People I got more hate mail for Ashley Flowers last year than I got for myself, which I took as a personal win.

I was going to say, hey, if you're getting more for her and less from you, then. Right, I'm like, A, more, like that feels good for myself. B, taken a little off her plate, so she doesn't have to wait. through it or her assistant. Right. Whoever is going through her email. But yeah. So the amount of times I've opened my like writerly email inbox and been like,

dear Ashley, I absolutely hate, like, what you call yourself a writer? I'm like, oh, man, do? Why do I call myself a writer? Or like immediately believing them. And they're like, your book's so bad. And I'm like, damn it. Oh, you know, it's bad. And then I get to the bottom.

and it's like, I'll never pick up another missing half was terrible. And I'm like, one second? That's not me. Wrong, Ashley. And I'm like, oh, okay. You respond to them all and you're like, might I recommend in my dreams I hold a knife? Yeah, just starts getting the ears. I probably should, but literally the worst hell I can imagine is having an actual dialogue with someone who takes the time to send a

person hate bookmail about, you know? Like, that's my worst version of hell. My version of hell would be the 10th circle where I would have to respond and engage in these, like, hate mail emails that I get. So God bless Geneva Rose for, like, actually responding to people from time to time with her, you know, her Scott series and everything. Because you could not get me to respond for any amount of money. Yeah.

I also feel like it's like, I don't, like, I don't, like, I think. that like you can be my friend nancy who is like one of my friends for years and years and years always said to me she told her children when she was raising them i don't care if it's a magazine a comic book a book anything if you enjoy reading it you are a reader so like no matter what you pick up and i just think it's like very interesting that like a lot of the people that are sending hate mail are like taking their time to do this are probably the people that like that like don't understand what goes into a book and probably like have to understand that reading might not be their hobby or they're in the wrong genre right you're in the wrong

genre yeah they're in the wrong genre most of the time well very people are like expecting a hundred percent historical accuracy you can also read nonfiction I think is kind of what you're even saying like if you are this obsessed with it go read nonfiction like this is still fiction yeah or if you didn't like some choice that an author made in her thriller. Yeah. Like, don't pick up another book by her. Or,

write your own. Or, have you liked any thrillers ever? Or just sit with that, that feeling or that thought and think, like, why do I think that was bad? Oh, because I think, you know, blah, blah, blah. What a cool revelation I just had about my aesthetic preferences, you know? Yeah. Great.

Moving on. But instead, it's like, nope, she'll hear about this. I can't imagine either. I can't imagine doing that. No. Like, could you imagine having lunch with a friend and getting home and being like, I fucking hated your outfit today? That story you told me about your cat was so fucking boring.

I wanted to stab myself in the neck. I wanted to kill myself. I'd rather get thrown in front of a bus and hear about your fucking cat again. Like, could you just imagine if you just, like, spoke to everybody in your life like that? Yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Can, yes, and that is, I mean, that is literally what people are doing when they tag authors in things. I'm okay with people having lunch with me and then going on to a review site and being like, oh, her stories were so fucking boring.

Like, whatever, because that's what Goodreads is, essentially. And like, that's fine. Just don't tag me in it. Yeah. Oh, God, when I was a baby author, I've learned how to handle Goodreads, obviously. and like, you know, the plethora of people's opinions about the things that you do. Anyway, but when I was a baby author and Dreams was coming out, I remember this experience that I had where I logged on to Goodreads,

and I was like, let's see what people are saying about in my dreams. I hold a knife. And I remember, like, my jaw dropping because I'm sure it's still there, but it's like the longest thread of two people talking back and forth in their messages, both of them about how much they hate this book and like things that you would not, like, things you wouldn't even imagine and you watch them in real time become best friends over their mutual hatred of like every single part of the book and how terrible and the idiotic it was. and I'm just like reading this back and forth

and they have they have like usernames where they're like the cute like hipster like anime cartoon faces you know and you know they're both like too cool for school and I'm just like going back and forth reading these things and I get to the end and they're like so glad to have met you

and I'm like okay these are experiences that I never expected to have. It was right around then where I was like, this isn't about me. Okay. Let's kindly log off. No. And that is such a journey. A lot a journey. Yes. I will be finding it if it's still there. Yes. Oh my God. Kate, we did our and I'll find it if it's there. When we did our like bad review.

video, I was like, if she finds that one, and I have to read that one, I might have a PTSD flashback like in the bookstore because there are like two reviews that actually have ever made me cry. And it was that the beginning of that one, that thread. I mean, it was such a journey that by the end I was like had experienced 12 different emotions. Like my tears were dry and I was like, wait, do I love this?

I'm eating popcorn. But the other one was the very first review that I ever got for In My Dreams I Hold a Knife on Goodrease was like a two star review. So this is like my first

like foray into the book is out in the world. And it was like one of the worst books I've ever read. Everything about this trash and I was and it like went on and on I was like this is it it's all over it just started and it's all over like this is the death knell in my publishing career um and I cried I don't like a baby it's so vulnerable do you also like I kind of feel like 19,000 reviews on in my dreams I hold a

knife so there's that what's this now you have 19,000 instead of just one review Wow. Yeah, in my dreams, like now it's the book, people like the best of mine. And so if I could, I mean, for the most part, it's my most popular and well, best selling book. So if I could have told little baby me that, you know. So any debut authors or early career authors listening do not, yeah, just ignore it. Take it with a giant table shaker worth of salt. Yes. If I could. can tell you, give you one piece of advice. That's a good piece of advice. My two favorites are the future saints and this book will bury me. Oh my God. Those are my twins. Do you know why that?

Okay. First of all, that makes me so happy because those are my two most recent books and I love to think that I'm getting better with every book. Like, my ego is very dependent on that, you know. And I feel. the closest to those books. That makes me so happy. Thank you. I'm the closest to the last housewife and midnight is the darkest hour.

So for the theme of my life, I think that's probably why those are my favorite. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. The The Killer in this book will bury me is probably one of like the top five that I've ever feared a fictional character. like one of the scariest killers I've like ever I just like was like very unsettled that is like the best compliment ever

my my biggest fear is like a home invasion of any kind and or like just like going to take my dog out and seeing like a man's face in my window and that made my fear like intensify by 10 that like I remember when I was was reading, this book will bury me, I kept like waking up or getting out of bed in the middle of the night just to double check that my locks were like, were sealed. Is it fucked up that I'm like glowing with pride right now?

No, it's not because- You just curse you so much. Because that is like my- You like- You like horror. You like, you like, I think of you as like kind of a hardcore, like reader of thrillers and horror. a person who is hard to scare who's like seen a lot

in the actual world. He's read some things. I've read some things. You've read some things. Yeah. I've read some things. I also, when I was reading it was like at a time where I was like there's a toxic person in my life that like I need to get out of it

and I was so fed up with that situation that like I really wasn't like nothing was, I was fearless. Do you know what I mean? Like I would have like walked into a gorilla pit and then like, I ripped my head off. I don't care. So like reading that and being like, oh my God, I'm scared some man's going to murder me is also like,

okay, like you were bringing that fear to light. But also, I don't know if it's fucked up of me to be like, that book scared the shit out of me so much. Like I fucking loved it. You know what I mean? That's my book. That was my favorite because it literally scared the shit out of me so much that like I. That's the garr response that I would expect. You know, it's always the things that are the truest to life and the most, like, real possibilities that have always gotten me to. Like, for example, the book that has scared me more than anything else in my entire life is Michelle McNamara's All Be Gone in the Dark.

Her book. That was, you know, she passed away before it was completed, and it was about her journey trying to catch the Golden State Killer. and she goes into such detail about what the experience, like what he did to people when he came into their homes. That book altered my brain chemistry. Like, I will never be over that book. Thinking to myself, like, this is real. A real person did this to other real people.

And the human brain. is capable of these levels of sadism. And it wasn't even like it was so, so gory or anything. You know, we're not talking like Texas chainsaw massacre or saw or anything like gore porn. We're talking like the psychological torture. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough. I couldn't imagine. I would not have survived that time, that time frame. Like the Golden State Killer, the Nightstocker, Ted Bundy, like. my, so my best friend and I were like, my friend Nicole, like, we are very much like into true crime, but then being like, that was really disturbing and like scary and I need a break. And like when everything happened with the Brian Coburger trial and like that case, I have never been more afraid in my entire life than I was when like that was going on.

Like I'm talking like I did not want to be alone. I was like checking all of my locks. She made her husband put curtains in their basement because she was like afraid that somebody was watching her when she was like working out. And I was like looking back now, I'm like, that was ridiculous because this man targeted blonde like college students in their early 20s. And I am a 38 year old man. What made me think that?

I would ever be on his radar. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't him. It wasn't, you weren't afraid of him. Your mind was open to the reality that things happen out of the blue and that people are watching in tracking and predating upon others in ways that you wouldn't have, you weren't actively thinking about. It's like your friend closing the blind.

it's not because she thought like Brian was outside. But it's about the fact that she now realize that that she's vulnerable in that moment. And there are people out there that you would never expect. Yeah. This shit happens. That's what it's about. It's like. Fearing that like finding out afterwards that somebody would have been stalking me for like five or six months and me not realizing it is like the most terrifying thing.

So I would not have survived the 80s. I would not have survived the 80s whatsoever. Like, you know, I think I think Ashley Flowers talks about this not to like bring her back into the conversation. But I think I think Ashley Flowers talks about this. I think there was like an Atlantic article about this. But something I'm really curious about a little rabbit hole I want to dig into is the Pacific Northwest of it all or like the left coast, the West Coast serial killer. Boom. Why it was that that period of like a decade or so.

saw so many serial killers all along, you know, California, Washington, and Oregon. So, you know, people are like, is it because of lead exposure? Is it because of this? Is it because of that? Like, all these theories for why there was insane, just this boom, serial killer boom, during that time. So I really want to dig into that and, like, figure that's a little niche hobby of mine. I think it's like, you know, I think it's like, well, I'm very rural, so like I always think of this,

but like if you murder somebody in Seattle, there are so many woods you can bury them in. And like California, like there are so many like unexplored areas that you could kill somebody and hide their body. If you live in New York City and you kill somebody, you don't have, like you're going to get caught. You know what I mean? Like, where do you... Just ask Dexter. Yeah. Well, that didn't come out well.

Dexter had to, like, practice for, like, 30 years before he killed somebody. Yeah. He didn't just go to New York. But I will also point out the Texas killing fields, which are... That we have here locally, like, right outside of Houston, which, if you know anything about it, are right off our major highways where, like, incredible amounts of people drive... daily and they've recovered dozens, I want to think, 30 plus female bodies from these

buried in these killing fields to the point where there's no way they think that it could be a burial ground for just one serial killer. It has to be multiple. And we're talking about right in plain view of some of the highest trafficked highways like in the country. Oh my God. I know. And I recently just found out thanks to my friends at murder by the book and the amazing author

Lisa Olson who is a reporter. Did you guys see or read the scientists and the serial killer? Did that cross your desks last year? It's a true true crime book by Lisa Olson who did a really in-depth reporting on the Houston serial killer. actually the Heights serial killer where I currently live in the heights in Houston there was the candy man this was the territory of the candy man

who was active around the same time as John Wayne Gasey the clown killer and they had a lot of similarities in the victims they were targeting the kind of networks that they were of people they were involved in to the point

where to this day, people still speculate that those two serial killers had like some connections. Anyway, doing a lot of fascinating. We're here to talk to the Future Saints and we're talking about serial killers. I'm really not staying on brand. I don't either. It's okay. I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry. Please. Rain me in. If you find the Golden State Killer case very interesting, and you want that like emotionally devastating book. Please read The Death of Us by Abigail Dean. Oh yeah, you said that one. I've heard so much hype about this book.

It is. I need to read it. It is amazing. But the serial killer in this book, I think, was based off from the Golden State killers, their Golden State Killer because of the similarities and like what he does to this couple and like what the Golden State Killer did to. his victims. Wow. Has she talked about that? I don't think she's like has the author. I don't I haven't seen anything where she has um but just like being a fan of Michelle McNamara's book and like reading yeah um that and then also like podcasts and and things of that nature like I just know that there

were like a lot of similarities um and like especially the time frame but I think that it's just like in London instead of California. Yeah. But it was very, it like kind of draws back to like what a lot of authors are doing where something could be inspired by true events, but like you're getting the opposite view like from like a victim perspective or the families of victims and things like that.

And I find that very interesting. Kind of like what Jessica Nguyen with bright young women. Yeah. But like this would be Abigail Dean's version of like what. what could happen to a couple after surviving something by like the Golden State Killer. Yeah, I'm so, I'm so interested just in like how other authors handle being inspired by true events, obviously, because of putting out, this book will bury me and like having so many conversations about true crime and books inspired by true crime and so many authors are inspired by true crime. and like what are the ethics around it, you know, what are the ways to tell a story, a timely story, ethically? Just I'm so curious about like the choices other authors make to either like put that at the front of their conversations about like their book or really not be so upfront about it.

Not necessarily hiding it but just not making it like a telling point or talking point or yeah. Yeah. I have a huge list I can send you because like one of my things that I'm going to be like doing on Instagram is like recommending books for people who are fans of true crime and like these are books that are kind of loosely based on true cases. So if you want me to send that to you, let me know. Yeah. I mean, you're obviously not. Well, thank you. I like I will devour that when. when you publish it. Yeah, I just, it's, I had so many conversations on the book tour for this book, Will Bury Me of, like, readers coming up and saying things like, well, obviously, I had a bunch of readers, mostly on the, on the internet, or exclusively on the internet, like, express that they don't like true crime inspired books.

But then I also had a lot of people in person kind of say, like, I'm really interested in true crime inspired books. I think a lot of people are. I think that's probably the majority of readers, especially like in people who are used to crime fiction and are crime fiction readers, but they would say things to me like, and it's so refreshing to hear you talk openly and honestly about your inspiration for this book, because so many authors who their books are clearly inspired by a true crime, an event or series of events, don't talk about it. No, so I got this phone call. Oh. And then I was trying to cancel it. I flipped this, the screen upside down. I'm just imagining this in slow motion. And then I think I answered the call and I was like, oh no, it's recording. And so I was trying to get

everything off as fast as I could. Oh my gosh. It's okay. Whenever we have like interruptions. Whenever we have interruptions, I just try to bully Kate into reading these like really bleak books that I like love. It's a trend. Well, you were on a rule, but now I can't remember what. So we also could just wrap it up.

Here's your reminder that the future saints by the incredible Ashley Winstead is now out and available at all bookstores. and you better read it. Oh, and the audiobook is wonderful for our audio book, girly. I loved it. Thank you. So, yeah. I've heard great things.

I can't listen to my own books on audio. I get it. So I trust my audio book listeners. Okay. This is my first multi-cast. Yeah. If you loved it, it's coming to Daisy Jones and the Six. It has similar vibes.

Oh, that is a high bar. Yes. And I will take that. Yeah. and run with it. I love it. Well, thank you all so much. I'm sorry that I let you guys ask me about two questions about future saints.

They're going to get the vibes. That's what I expected. And there's more to look forward to this year. That's always that. Yeah. I will stay so focused and on track if you guys have me back for another book talk. I promise. We don't.

We are having you back. So when there is a passionate conversation with us about your book and like what inspired it, that's all we need. Like you are being your authentic self, hearing about your journey with like your creativity process is enough for people to know that they need to read your books and to love you. Well, I'm so glad. Thank you for reminding me that we did touch on that. That feels more important. I was like, did I just talk to you guys about serial killers the whole?

time because that doesn't feel on brand. Well, yeah, everybody, go read, go listen, go write nice reviews. Or bad ones, just don't tag me in them. Yeah. And yeah, we're, I'm sure we will talk to you in July, right? Hot Girl Murder Club. We're hot girl murder club July 14th. So yeah, I'd love that. And I will be in both of your DMs shortly to just to chat about life things. Yes. Thank you so much for having me. You guys are the best. I adore you both, as I hope you know. Love you.

Yes. Love you guys so much.