Bookwild - Halley Sutton's Hollywood Obsession: The Hurricane Blonde

Episode Date: August 4, 2023

This week, Gare and I make a new best friend in Halley Sutton, author of The Hurricane Blonde out August 8, 2023!  We dive into everything from Hollywood's treatment of women to the inherent perfection of Taco Bell.  Follow us on Instagram:Gare @gareindeedreadsKate @thegirlwiththecookonthecouchHalley @halleysutton25 Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

And we are going to be discussing all things, chills, thrills, and kills. Kate and I are going to be talking about our favorite books, TV shows and movies that are in the thriller or crime fiction genre, as well as some reading habits and other items related to how we met on Bookstagram that will fit in with this podcast. So thank you so much for joining us. And we hope that you have fun and get totally terrified. Every time, I feel like every time Kate and I talk about an author, it could be like, her name's Paula and we're like, is it Paula or Pela? Yeah. I always like second guess. So I'm glad that we know, Hallie Sutton. Totally.

Yep. Hallie rhymes with Sally. I love that. I love that. So how is this week going for you? Because this is a huge week for you. It's crazy. I, it feels very surreal.

Like my publicist today sent me an email and she was like five days until the book was out. And I was like, that can't be right. It's very, it's very exciting. It feels very surreal. Lots of anxiety. But you know, at this point, like there's not, I, hands off. It's going to be out in the world and we're going to see how it does. But it's, it's crazy exciting.

And it feels very different from when my first book came out because this time I'll be doing in-person events. So it is, it's a change. That's exciting. Yeah. totally. That's very exciting. Well, you know, that's a really good, the Hurricane Blonde is the book we're talking about. And this is an excellent book to have any author event, let alone a live in-person author event for because there's so much to discuss about this story. And I think personally, you're going to see a lot of like groups of people because this is an excellent like,

book club pick. Yeah. This is not something you want to read alone. Totally. You don't want to be alone with this book. You don't want to be alone in your feelings with this one. I am the biggest, like, fan of thrillers that have, like, bleak, dark, like, undertones in them.

And when I tell you, I was, like, reading this, I was like, this book was written for me. Like, this is, like, my soulmate in a book. I just, like, cannot get over how amazing. amazing the story is. Thank you so much. That really means a lot to me. Thank you so much. Our book club is only two people,

but if we had more, we would have had more people to discuss it with, but like we have not shut up about this. So. Thank you. We haven't. I'm loving it. I started reading it and I started like immediately texting him.

I'm like, oh my God. She's like page two. You're going to love it. Yeah. I'm so glad to hear you say that. I'm so glad the darkness wasn't a turnoff for you because this book does go.

deep into the darkness and I know that can be polarizing for people, but that was the story I wanted to write. So I loved it. I love it. And nothing is too dark to me. Yeah. Animal violence is the only thing that like. No, goodness. No. It scares me. Yeah. Yeah. It's just the only thing. Every now and then we power through one. But yeah. As long as the animals are safe, you know, do whatever. Yeah, totally. never would never hurt an animal in the book yeah that doesn't need to be right that's the only thing that's the only thing I never remember like I was talking to like Karen slaughter who was like the queen of like dark crime fiction right yeah I'm like one thing I like respect is that I read like 25 of your books in the last year and like you never have any and she's like I never will like there's never any animal violence in her book she's like people like no one's safe like you do not want to be in the first like chapter of a Karen

slaughterbook, but like all the animals are safe. So we also love that about Halley's side. Thank you. Yeah, it's, it's, I think it's the fastest way to lose a reader, to be honest with you, is animal violence. And so, yes, that's sad. And it doesn't usually, for me, it's not something I'm interested in. But that said that, like, not a lot else was off the table, particularly with this book. And I think that sort of fits my view of like the dark underside of Hollywood and fame and all these people with unchecked power and money and really wanting to try to dive into that. Yes. Yeah.

That's what I was going to say this year, kind of last year, too, I apparently got obsessed with stories that take place in Hollywood. So I was super excited when Garrett mentioned this, like, I can't even remember back when we were talking about like books we were excited for for the summer. And I was like, oh my gosh, just in Hollywood. I can't stop reading books that are in Hollywood. what like what made you want to write about like kind of like the underbelly that you were just talking about yeah you know I grew up really obsessed with old Hollywood lore and stories um I think I did a

history day project on Clara Beau when I was like nine or 10 um and when I moved to L.A. back in 2015 it was something I was really fascinated by is like there's Hollywood and then there's Los Angeles and they're very different and Hollywood is the industry and it's also this kind of myth and idea and it tells really interesting stories about itself and sometimes those stories are really dark and in particular I was really fascinated by this sort of fascination that Hollywood and Hollywood lore experts have around like young women who have died which is it's horrible tragedies and really sad and we could go deep into those because I have a lot of feelings about a lot of them, but it's also so kind of not representative of the crime that actually does happen in Los Angeles.

And yet these women are like, Black Dalia is kind of like the Uber, you know, dead girl here in Los Angeles. And so that's why she kind of starts the book too. And so I was just really interested in like, what is this sort of tension between the golden glitz of Hollywood and also this like very real danger that these women were in, this kind of poor outcomes? And then also how does that relate to Los Angeles as a whole because they're very different. They're like two separate things. And I don't think I really fully understood that until I moved here and was like, oh yeah, Hollywood is not really part of my experience of being an Angelino. And yet it's also the lifeblood of the city. You know, we're in the middle of a writer strike and an actor strike.

And like, obviously I support both. But how much that's impacting the economy and, you know, kind of the lifeblood of the city too. It's, I don't know, it's a really interesting tension. I find that really creatively invigorating. Yes. Oh, my God, I love you. That was a great answer. I'm like, oh, there's like little hearts coming off my head right now. God, I could listen to you talk all day.

Thank you. I will if you'll let me. How long have you lived in Los Angeles? I moved here 2015 for grad school. So I grew up in Northern California, and then I lived in the Bay Area for a while. And I had never really imagined myself living in Los Angeles. And then when I was deciding to go to grad school, I was kind of like, well, two years. It's an adventure.

I don't know that I'll like L.A. I kind of imagined that I wouldn't. And then I got here and I was like, oh, I love it. So I, yeah, it's this is my city. Yeah, that's amazing. So obviously, like you've been there for a while. And, you know, like you said, like the thing that I love about this book, and Kate, feel free to like tell me to shut up at any time because like sometimes they get wrapped up and I don't want to spoil anything.

So like anything. Yeah, yeah. But the thing that I love about your book is I feel like right now there's a very big trend with people writing crime fiction to kind of be like, be wary of how much you love true crime. Because it's not, it's not a Karen Slaughter book. It's not something fictional. It's not a movie. You know, when you're like, oh my God, like, did you hear, like, this is wild. I love this. And people are like, they're still real victims at the end of the day with this. So, you know, like, even though, like, you're interested in true crime, like, just be careful of your words and stuff. And the thing that I love about this one is that you took that trend and you really, like, put it into the Hollywood glamour, the glitz. And then, like you said, like that underbelly of what really happens.

And my favorite thing about this. was how you kind of touched on the fact that there are things in this book that are either mentioned or that happened or, you know, like are discussed on the tour, you know, that Salma does, about famous people who have crimes happen to them. And you also touch on the fact that there are crimes like this that happen all of the time in Hollywood to women who aren't as famous or aren't as well known. And the way that you walk that line was brilliant for me. And I loved how you did that because you really did touch on the fact that, like, yes, like the paparazzi did love to chase Lindsay Lohan. But like when all of these things came out

about, you know, Harvey Weinstein and everything came out about that, I remember being on Twitter and there was a list that came out. And it was like, here are some of the people that are testifying against him in court that I've said that they had experiences with him. And a lot of people were like, well, who's this person? Who's that person? You know? And it's like, this is somebody who you don't know as well because they weren't in front of the camera, but they still had the same experience of the woman that was in every

90s movie that you loved. So when you like created this story, like, what was the first thing that popped into your mind to be like, okay, I'm going to like keep. going and like have that snowball effect with this because like there's something here. Well, thank you. First of all, that's very kind of. Oh, you're welcome. And also to your point there about Weinstein, like that wasn't a mistake, right?

Like this was a man with unchecked power and he was also targeting. I mean, he was targeting really big actors and he was also targeting people who like definitely would not have the power to say anything if their story came to light or would just be kind of hushed up and hushed up by the studio because there's too much money involved, right? Like that's usually what it is. It's like there's too much on the line. So when I was thinking about crafting this, I was really trying to, yeah, I have my own obsession and critique of true crime and my own ambivalence about like there are these true crime tour buses that happen in Hollywood. And I've taken many of them. And I love them. I think it's a really interesting way to look at the history. And I'm also uncomfortable with the way in which it's sort of like glorifying these true crimes that happen to people. And then there's also tension.

that I was kind of trying to explore in Salma's bus tour, which features all young dead women of like, it's a privilege to have your story told when you've been murdered in this way, and yet it's a privilege that nobody would ever want. You know what I mean? Like, you don't want to be known for just this thing, or it also flattens you, the black dahlia.

Everybody has a theory about who she was and why she was murdered and who killed her, and along the way the actual person gets lost. It's lost behind a nickname, right? Elizabeth Short. And so I was kind of trying to think of all the different tentacles that would reach a person under these circumstances. Like everyone from, you know, the cast and crew who've been abused to the women whose stories they tell to other people in Los Angeles who stories don't get told because of, you know, that they're not famous. They're not powerful.

And so I'm really glad to hear that that worked for you. That was something I definitely was trying to ride into a sort of the metaness of it all of like there's a true crime. There's an author who's famous for writing this true crime book, which Salma has this really embellate relationship with herself in which it's like it made her sister really famous after her death, but it made her famous mostly for her death. And what do you do? What do you do with that kind of narrative? And who gets to tell the story, you know? In the book, there's also the director Cal who's making a movie that's like his experience of the sister. And all of it is just kind of these narratives around even Salma's memories of her sister. It's like it's not from her sister's point.

of you. It's how Salma looks at her. There's sort of once the person has become the dead girl, there's sort of no real way for them to have a voice. And I was also very conscious of that and uncomfortable of that myself when I was writing this book, that like, am I kind of perpetuating this? But that was also sort of the thing that I wanted to explore. Right. Yeah. I mean, no, I don't think that you were insensitive in that. I think that you definitely like put a spotlight on those people. Like, there's so many crime fiction books like right now that they're like, um, you know, remember the victims. Like everybody knows Ted Bundy, but nobody knows any of his victims names, you know? And so like you were just kind of like, okay, here you go. And the thing that

I really wanted to mention before I forget to, that I loved was I noticed like, like you said, like when Selma is talking about her sister, it's like who she was as a person, her personality, the things that she did, like whether they were good or bad, these memories. And then when everybody else talked about her, it was the negative, the paparazzi, the press, like all of these other kind of like things. We're all about her body. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So I just, yeah, I think that you did that fantastic. I was blown away. There's so many like layers in this story that like no matter what works for you in crime fiction, you're going to find it in this book. Thank you so much. Oh, man. You're making.

a lot of my like debut day anxiety go away. This is great. This is great for myself. Thank you. Yeah. If anybody has anything negative to say about this book, you just send him to Kate and I and we'll take care of a while. Yes. I, so you were talking about cow earlier and he was such a, I don't even know what to say. Kind of a stereotype is like part of what I'm trying to say in a more positive version. But were you like kind of thinking or were there any like directors or actors that like inspired him? Oh yes. Some that I'm not going to name as specifically because they're alive and I don't want to get sued. I mean, not that whatever, but like, yeah, I definitely, that was like one of the avenues. So going into this book, I had a background where I knew, I had like done a fair amount of research on old Hollywood,

older Hollywood stories. And I'm happy to share some of those too. And that was like my own personal interest just like throughout my life like things that I've read you know and there's a lot of things that Salma talks about in the book which are all based on um at least kind of the mythology you know whether or not it's actually true but like there's a story in there about Clark Gable uh that is like very much like based on a real thing that came out after he died um and so one of the areas where I did a lot of proactive research was bad director behavior because it was something that I was very interested in. And you see it in other actors, too, you know, not only men, but often men who are very powerful and very, like, well respected. But I did a lot of research

into different directors. So everything that Cal does on set is, like, based on some real story or anecdote that he is like, I know what you mean when you say stereotype. He's kind of like stands in for, he's like the bad director, right? Like, the ultimate bad director. And so, A lot of it is based on, you know, there's some really horrible stories about Hitchcock, about Polanski, about Quentin Tarantino, about, you know, just the things that they have done to elicit performances out of people. And I'm, I find it, I don't have a very good or tight answer for what the crossplay between this is. But it seems like there are really artistic, talent. to directors who also gravitate towards the position because you get to run your own little kingdom.

You get to be God and just, you know, enact your will on other people. And it's really horrifying when you dive into it. I mean, there's one, and I actually can't remember who the director was. I think he was a French director. There's a story about him not believing that his leading lady was going to be able to perform being drugged. So he drugged her without her knowledge. And this was like in the 60s.

and then gets the take from her and takes her immediately to the hospital to get her stomach pumped. I mean, just like things across the board that are just fascinating and horrifying more than they're fascinating, but you're just sort of like, why do we give people a pass in the making of art, even if it's great art? Like, why is this allowed? Why is this, why is this even an option for some people, you know? And also to some extent, you're like, do you not trust your actors? These are trained people. like they don't have to experience it in order to show it, I would think. But there seem to be a lot of people who think differently. Yeah.

That was going to be my follow up question is like kind of through the whole book, you're exploring like what is allowable for the like price of art. And then kind of like what lengths some people will go to to to be like, oh, it's almost real. And I'm just doing it for art. That's why I'm doing it. And then they get away with it. Right.

And we give this weird pass to artists in an interesting way. I mean, I was really obsessed with a podcast last year called Death of an Artist, which was about the Cuban artist Anna Mandietta who died after an altercation with her husband, who was a more famous artist, Carl Andre, and the way that that has kind of been hushed up. And just the sort of like. we have to, at the very least, I think we have to acknowledge both. We have to say, Hitchcock is a great director and he also did some really awful things. Polanski is a great director. Personally, one of my favorite films is Chinatown. And I would say Chinatown is all

over this book, like the fingerprints of Chinatown. But also, it's problematic. And he's problematic in, like, major ways. And so I don't really know what the good answer is to like, how do you cherish art that's made by bad people or made in terrible means? But I think it's like a question we have to keep asking and have to acknowledge. It's very strange to me when I see sort of narratives of like you can't talk about it at all. And it's like, how do you, how, what do you mean? What do you mean? Yeah.

One thing I love to like talking about Cal is like how you really like showcase the differences in any Hollywood like role or job between a man and a woman. So Cal can literally do anything. Like Cal could have drugged one of his characters. You know, an actor and actress brought them to the hospital. He was like, oh, my God. Like, he's so method. Totally. Totally.

But, you know, somebody wants to eat something other than a salad. And they're like, she's a bitch. She's like hard to work with. You know, and it just like, I loved how you played on that role because I was like, why like, we swear on this podcast, by the way. Okay, good. But I'm like, excellent.

But I'm like, why the fuck is nobody saying anything to Cal about some of the shit that he's saying and doing? But then like, Salma loses her sister. Yeah. And it's like they give her the, I call it the Lindsay Lohan treatment where like everybody wants to like talk shit about her. They want to gossip about her. They want to like make the things that she's doing without understanding her life, this like huge big deal. And like, yes, this is like stuff that people who are not famous do. Like, you know what I mean?

Somebody loses their sister and they like hit the bottle a little too hard for a couple of weeks. They're like, you're in mourning. But when it's somebody who's a celebrity and you hold them at such a high pedestal, especially as a woman, they are just like obliterated in the press. Totally, totally. And it's so interesting to me. And this was, thank you for saying that too. And this was, that was definitely something on my mind about the way that,

a really mercurial difficult to work with man can be a genius. And it sort of lives under that banner of like he's a genius though. Like even when I'm researching, you know, stories of bad director behavior, that's like always the asterisk of like, well, Hitchcock did terrible things to women, but he's obviously a genius. And like, yes, those two are hard. And it's like, but it's so interesting. And then Lindsay Loham was definitely somebody who was on my mind. And you know, that whole kind of early a pot-a-a-a-a-propa-culture of like particularly young women in Paris Hilton, Nicole Ritchie, like, who were just sort of tabloid fodder. And we look back and we're like, they're actual children. You know what I mean? Like, yes, the bad behavior and stuff,

but like, nobody's asking the question of like, should we be putting these kids in the spotlight? Should we, do they, you know, what's the help we need to get them? Or even if it was, they need help, it was less empathy and more sort of like they need help, you know? And so really trying to play with that too of who gets what treatment and why who gets called a genius who gets called a problem yeah yeah and i love that too because i like always thought like even back in like the paparazzi days with like lindsay lohan and stuff you know i always i was just like always like people are being hard on her you know like my friends were like you just stick up for lindsay because you love her and i'm like stick up for her because i feel bad for her because what she's doing

right now. Yeah, like what she's doing right now in Hollywood are what you guys are doing on the weekend, but you're judging her, you know, like what person in their 20s, like, wasn't like having a little bit too much to drink or like experimenting with drugs. Like, I understand not everybody does that, but like at the end of the day, like, you live in a small town, you live in a big city, like, you're two in the same, you know? Totally. And like, thank God that I didn't have any paparazzi following me around college. Like, I was pretty tame, but like you could, you get picked. of people at the wrong moment, you know, and it's, let alone somebody who may be combating an addiction or has access to, you know, everything at a crazy young age. Like I did for this book to research,

I did. I read Little Girl Lost by Drew Barrymore, which was her, she wrote kind of a biography, but she was still herself very young, but it was sort of about her addiction. And she talks about she was, had access to clubs at 10 years old. And like just the, you have access to. You have access to everything at too young and age. People are enabling you. And then people are taking pictures of you and saying, like, it's your problem as if they got there by themselves. Well, and it's adults that they're around.

Right. You know what I mean? Like, they're around adults who have been doing this for years and years. And like, I also like really, like, again, like the role between men and women, like, you know, it's like when, like you said, like a picture gets taken that can just completely try to ruin your image. And it's like, if it's a man, it's like, Think of how much a man can change in 20 years.

When it's a woman, it's like, burner at the stake. Like, she's not going to change. Like, that's who she was back then. But, like, you never... Because, like, even now, I'm finding it very interesting how media is, like, kind of looking back on, like, Perez Hilton. Yes. And how, like, they, like, you ate up all this gossip.

But, like, everybody who, like, cheered this man on, like, you guys suck. You know, like, there was... God, what was it? It was like Lindsay Lohan, I think she was on like David Letterman. And she was like trying to promote a movie. She had like just gotten in trouble. But like she was trying to promote this movie. And he's like, so when do you go to rehab?

What'd you do again? And she's like, I'm here to promote a movie. And then like at one point like she was like trying to play along. But she was like these are not the questions you guys gave me for my like pre interview. So like there's all of these things I'm seeing. Because like I have this like weird Hollywood obsession. So like I'm seeing all these things on like my TikTok. And.

on Twitter where it's like, here are all of these women who are treated unfairly. And then there's also, there's also an actor turned director who was like the peak fantasy in the early 2000s. And then he was called problematic by a lot of women in Hollywood and everybody just stopped talking about him. They didn't like, you know, say like, this is screwed up. they didn't give him like the Harvey Weinstein treatment, but it was like they just stopped talking about it, right? Like they were like, do you believe this one woman? And then when it was multiple women, they were like,

oh, do you believe all of them? Like, if that happened, that screwed up. But he did this, this and this. You know, like, it's like he was a predator and like he like preyed on women that he worked with and put them in really shitty situations and did horrible things. But he also did this with his career. And it's like nobody looks at that with like, say, Lindsay Lohan. because like I will die on the hill that like Lindsay Lohan might have been a little party girl. She might have had some things going on. But Georgia rule is one of the best movies in the entire world. And her performance is amazing. So like leave Lindsay alone.

Yeah. I'll absolutely leave Lindsay alone. Lindsay Lohan stand here as well. And just yeah, just unfair how that follows you to, you know, she has a big like even now I feel like, I feel like our, it's really great that we're re-examining these narratives through like, like you said, TikTok or Twitter, or there's that podcast you're wrong about that had a whole series of like ladies of the 90s who have been maligned like Tanya Harding and like Monica Lewinsky and kind of reexamining things from a 2020, I think they started around 2020. So 20-20 lens

and being like, oh, yeah, that's pretty fucked up that we talked about women this way and acted as if they alone were accountable for this behavior. And I feel like even now with Lindsay Lohan and I hope the tide is changing. She just had a baby. Congratulations to her. But it's sort of like this like, oh, maybe she's finally getting her life turned around. And it was like that was 20 years ago. That was 20 plus years ago that we're talking about these incidents. And there's still like an asterisk next to her name. You know, that's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. No, I totally agree. And like you said, like it was 20 years ago. And it's like, you know, people were saying like she had to go to Mekanos to like be a normal human being. And it's like no, like the this is like I think it's totally.

had to because everyone was assholes in L.A. Everyone around her sucked. Yeah, like, everyone around her sucked. And there's like all of these videos about like paparazzi and like how they treat people and like how like, no matter if you're like rude to them, like you can be an asshole and be like, get the fuck out of my face and punch their camera and you're the problem. Or there's people where like, I think it's like Selena Gomez was like, you guys are really starting to kind of scare me. Like you've got enough pictures of me. Can you please like leave me alone for the day? And they're like, we have a job to do. do. Right. And it's just like, you know, like, and then you think of like horrible positions that like celebrities, especially women, because let's be honest, like the paparazzi is usually catching

men celebrities when they're with a woman. Totally. Because they just like pray after all of these, like, this is like the gear like women, women deserve better. Like this is like the name of our podcast at this point because like I just get like so riled up over this stuff but like it just like I was almost a little shady when I made my like casting collage because there is an actor that like you may not want to say who turned director because he is still alive. I got the I don't care like I say it say it let's do it. I mean allegations are like all alleged and like if you want to come after me like go I had, but, like, Cal was giving me very James Franco vibes. Oh, yes.

Absolutely. Like, I thought the same thing. Like, there were a lot of times when I, like, Spider-Man came out, I was like, yep, I'm definitely a homosexual. And then, like, I watched him kind of turn into this, like, person who's, like, people- Rudy and creative. And self-serious. And, yeah, totally.

You know, like, in the past, like, Cal was like the like hot guy with like the perfect hair. And then like as an adult, people are like, he's a little weirder than we expected. He's doing all of these things. And like, but like everybody wanted to bone him when they were like a teenager. So like we're just going to let it pass. And I'm like, oh my God, this is giving me James Franco. Because like, as his career like progressed, like people are like, he's kind of like fucking weird. And then like allegations come out, disappears. Nobody talks about them. Like, nobody's like, is he going to like, is there something that's going to happen with this?

And like, you know, they just stop making movies with him. Yeah. Totally. Totally. But they don't talk about him anymore. But like, Lindsay Lohan has a baby and they're like, do you remember 20 years ago when she like got busted with cocaine and it's like, listen, like there's- She was the only one in Hollywood

doing cocaine. Just her. Yes. Yes. She was the only one. And she found it on the sidewalk and did it by herself. There wasn't somebody who was like a lot older that like, you know, helped her get. into this. Totally. Right. At such a young age. Yeah. As was made me think of like the Britney stuff too, though. Like when like the paparazzi instance she had with like, I think an umbrella. Is that the one that I'm thinking of? Yes. Yes. But like she's finally pissed off and reacts. Yeah. And we just viewed it a

certain way. But it's like if I had cameras flashing in my face, I would be overstimulated so quickly. Totally. I would want to react that way. Like I don't want you in my face. Totally. Totally. Totally. Right. I think we view these things too when they happen when we get photos of them as like they were having a totally chill day and they just snapped out of nowhere. And you're like this has had cameras around her almost 24 hours for like 10 years. Like of course she snapped. Now I'm not condoning snapping and like but also it's so we take it so out of context and then apply it as if that's how we would react when we don't have lives that are like that even a little bit. You know. Exactly. Right. Right. Yeah. It's like it made me think of like the Britney thing where she tripped on the sidewalk and like almost like dropped her baby. Yeah. And everybody was like Brittany like she should have had like more reasonable shoes on. She should have like had a like tighter grip on her. Like she wasn't carrying the baby right. And it's like she was trying to walk holding her child and you guys were like flashing cameras in her fate. Like she couldn't see. You know what I mean? And she can't just stop what she's. doing because you guys are like how many after her. Totally. Totally. And it or like in the early odds, you know, when there might be moments where somebody would get like an upskirt shot of somebody and it would be like, look how only like they are that they're not wearing underwear. They're wearing this underwear. And you're like, somebody took a picture under her skirt.

That's crazy. You know, like that's horrible and violating. Yeah. There was that period where everyone was like learning. I remember being told how to get out of a car and a skirt. I'm like, what is happening right now? Yeah, and I was like, I'll just wear pants forever. That's fine. That was what I decided. I would just be like, if I were a woman, I would be like, every, every, we all have them. Yeah, totally. Get out of here. Right. Because if you want to look at one, like, it's really different.

Right. It's just so, like, I just can't get over, especially like now with like all of these things about like, what is like considered like right and wrong. And like, I've always told Kate, I'm like, listen, like, I am going to shout from your. like my opinion on sticking up for women and believing women and everything because not only like should all men do this, but like as a gay man growing up, like your support system was women. Like there were women that would like sucker punch somebody if they mess with you. And then now like I'm just like, listen, like I was like practically raised by women like friends, celebrities, like my mom.

And the fact that it was like Perez Hilton. that was like showing people all over the world, like pictures of these celebrities, hoo-haws. And like then trying to rub elbows with them, I was like, I cannot believe what is happening in our world. And it's also so, I mean, I'm definitely not trying to let Perez Hilton off the hook here when I say this. But like, there was such a culture of meanness at the time that was so acceptable that it's

so interesting. Like it's, you look back now and it's really horrifying to be like, why was this? Like I read Perez Hilton and like, why was this, you know, why was this? Why did we think that talking about somebody like this was okay? And yet there was this weird moment in time. I mean, I think historically it's gone on longer, but like specifically in that kind of early aughts where it was like really fun to like take a swing at celebrities, you know, and to do that in just a really kind of mean-spirited way.

I don't, it's not a, not a kind time. No, no, especially in like crying. I hate someone just because that's like the other tricky thing, like when some people think you should hate all rich people or hate anyone you seem. It's like you can't just like assume that just because they've succeeded in an industry that could be toxic, that they're just terrible people. Totally, totally. And there's a difference between holding people accountable and I understand that maybe at that point too,

maybe it felt like punching up because I have. I think that a lot of ways they're the ones with the power, but it's still like empathy is free and limitless. Like we could all stand to hold it a little more, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I like, I hate that too when like people are like, oh, so and so went on tour and they didn't have meet and greets or like, can you believe like some of these people are like not giving their fans enough time? And it's like people. And it's like, people.

It's like, I don't want to hear you like complain about like Taylor Swift not doing me in Greece. Like her job is to make music for her fans to enjoy. She goes on tour. She doesn't owe you anything else. Like you don't have to like know what her favorite color is. Like she doesn't owe you anything if you see her at a restaurant. Like and it's just like so mind boggling to me like when people act that way and what they expect out of celebrities. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like you're their best friend. Yeah. Yeah. Like and they're supposed to treat you like that. Like do you just like, okay, if you're at home.

at night and it's midnight and some weirdo knocks on your door, are you just going to let them in and act like they're your best friend? Because like a celebrity should not do that when some of you are like fucking unhinged and dangerous. Yeah, totally. Yeah, and they just like knock on your door and they're like, I'm your fan and you're like, okay, I don't really share. There's literally, so, okay, not to go back to the true crime of it all, but there's a young woman named Rebecca Schaefer who was an actress on a couple of sitcoms in the early 90s and she was murdered. by an unhinged fan who did exactly that, knocked on her door in the middle of the day in Los Angeles. First, he asked her for an autograph.

She gave him the autograph. I think he asked her, like, to go to lunch with him or something. And she was like, no. And so then she closes the door. He comes back. She opens the door and he shoots her. And it's actually the reason why celebrity addresses aren't listed in Los Angeles anymore is because of Rebecca Schaefer's case because of this very thing.

But, I mean, that's like, that's like the most far extreme thing of it. But she's somebody who I was thinking about on my, uh, start. six feet under two is like all these crazy store. I don't know. It's a, I don't want to ever downplay the privilege that comes with fame either, but it's kind of both a pendulum of like privilege and also makes you visible and puts you at risk in weird ways too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love true crime, but I'm very like emotional after it. Like it's like very like hard for me to like listen to something and be like, okay, like this, like the way that it affects people. But like, that's what I was going to say with this one.

Like, I just love this fucking book so much. Thank you. Like, I loved the way you handled how people discussed, talked about the rumors of Tani's murder. Because I have this like thing where like people can be very insensitive when it comes to true crime, people are downright disgusting and vile when it comes to Hollywood true crime. When it comes to the rumors of what happened to Natalie Wood. Yeah. When it comes to Nicole Brown Simpson and all of these like people who were famous and they're like

creating rumors and like bouncing all these theories off and they're so insensitive because at the end of the day. Like, I remember, like, this is, like, the most horrifying thing. But I remember, because my parents are also, my dad is into true crime. My mom will, like, pretty much, like, watch anything. She's so cool. Um, but my dad is, like, very into true crime. Like, I grew up watching cops in America's Most Wanted when I probably shouldn't have been. But, like, my dad's, like, they're fucked up. People out there. Like, be rude, be weird. Like, run, do whatever you got to do. But, like, this is the shit that can happen. Totally. And I remember, like, him talking about the OJ Simpson case.

Yeah. And there was a book that had come out in the 90s shortly after the court trial was over. And they actually had pictures of the crime scene in the book. Like nothing was blurred out. Nothing was like, leave a little to your imagination. And I was just, I remember like thinking to myself, like, I can't believe people want to see this. Like, I can't believe knowing the details. knowing that somebody was murdered is not enough for some people. Yeah, it's really strange and really

like, I mean, as a crime author, it's like hard, like, it's hard for me to fully, like, you know, can, uh, disassociate from people's, like interest. Yeah, in the like the salacious, because it's also like that's sort of what I'm trafficking in too, but it is really interesting. You know, what does that do for us as people? Like, why do we want to see those photos? or why do some people want to see those photos? Is it that in a photo it's removed enough that it feels not real? It feels, you know, I don't know. I'm with you.

The photos of Nicole Brown Simpson or the Black Dahlia, like things that come out that become like public property in a weird way. And that was like definitely something I was thinking about with this book too. And, you know, it's kind of embodied in tawny. But I think there was a way in which like the 90s and the 2000s, as we've been talking like female celebrities bodies were sort of public property. They still kind of are, but like hopefully, I think we're getting a little better at it. But the way people would discuss like, you know, is Britney Spears a virgin?

Did she get breast implants? Like all these things that's like, that's her body. That's not your business, you know? And then it becomes even more heightened, I think, after somebody's dead too, that like, that somehow that death because it's public knowledge belongs to people and that somehow those photos belong to people or it's their right to see them or they should be. allowed to see it. No, thank you is what I have to say to that. No, I don't think so. See, I think, in my opinion, I mean, I'm just going to like, swallow you up and, like, hold you for the rest of my

life because I love you so much. But, like, you, like, you hit the nail on the head when you're like, this is some of the stuff that happens in true crime, but, like, as a crime writer, like, you know, you have to, like, separate obviously that. But, like, I thought you did a fantastic job. Because, like, no matter what you write about or, like, how, like, gory or disturbing it is, like the way that you write your stories, especially with this one, because there are like fictional murders, and then you also discuss like Hollywood murders that happen to real people. And it's like the way that you showed how like it's kind of fucked up when like people talk about real people who died and then enjoying crime fiction.

Like if you wrote a slasher novel and you killed 20 people in like 50 pages, I'd be like, fuck yeah. Like go out. Like I love you. Like get it girl. Like give me more. blood, but like if you wrote, you know, something about like Nicole Brown Simpson, like, I know that you would write it in a way that was not salacious. That was not like gossipy and

like disheartening, you know? So like, that's what I loved about this is like how you, especially with like the tour and everything, because like I had never heard of those. Oh yeah. If you guys ever come out to L.A., we should go on one together. Just put that out. I would. I would. But like, I was just like, I was like. I was like. just reading it and I was like, oh my God, like, she's making me think so much about how people handle true crime and crime fiction and like how they like treat them in the same and that like shouldn't be. Like I remember like when I lived in Boston, there was, they called it. This was like over 10 years ago. So I don't know if they do it anymore. But like, I just thought it was like so fucked up that I went on this like ghost tour. Oh yeah. Boston. And I was like, oh my God. Like I wonder if you're just going to show like haunted houses and stuff. And I just thought. And or like apartment buildings that have like rumors or urban legends. And like they're taking you around Boston showing you where like victims of the Boston Strangler were murdered.

Yeah. And I was like, this is like a true crime tour, but like calling this a ghost tour to like get your pennies just seems really messed up to me. Totally. It's like it makes it kind of fun and flippant and like Halloween and spooky and stuff. And you're like, yeah, people actually died here. Like people, you know, experienced real trauma here. the worst moments of their lives, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. And like that's the thing that I was just like, oh, my God. Like could you imagine like being like, oh, a ghost tour? Like it's kind of like a haunted hay ride. And then like you're like, okay, like I just couldn't imagine like putting myself in a position where like if I were murdered or something horrible happened to me and I'm leaving all these people that I love and like hopefully love me behind that like I just couldn't imagine like my mother going on like a tour or something and then being like here's where your son was like step. dab 32 times and like they found his like liver like on his lampshade and like isn't that fucking cool like let's go on to the next one like I'm just like oh my god like this is so weird like

yeah I love true crime but like I don't need the details when it comes to that totally there is like a way in which when something becomes true crime which is also such an interesting term right like what makes something true crime versus like a murder or like and it I think it tends to break along like privilege and racial lines like we don't call you know a murder of like people of color in los angeles it doesn't usually be called true crime the same way the black dahlia does like it's really like very heightened in this weird way but like it almost it's like it's like it confers almost this sort of like I know I said this early but like your public property in some way that you somehow become part of like a conversation or an imagination in this weird way where it's like

but this was a person's life they didn't ask for this they didn't ask to be become the symbol of whatever you're putting on to them. It's really strange. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's just completely crazy. And like you said, like, especially like in Hollywood. And I was like thinking about that with your book because I never really, I never really thought of it that way. Like I've always been like, you know, when it comes to like people who are murdered and true crime and podcasts and documentaries and stuff, like some people are just like Ted Bundy was so hot. And I'm like, Ted Bundy was a fucking serial killer. Like, are you kidding me? Like, and that's like something like in the new Jessica Canola book, like that's, you know, loosely based off Ted Bundy is like how she said, like,

everybody's like, he's hot, he's charming. And she's like, there were like court records. Yeah. Of people being like, like, he was picking his nose in court. Yep. And also like, isn't it such a weird? Why would we ever say a serial killer is like, like, what's also he was mid at best as the kids say, but also like what was, I don't, it's such a weird thing to, to kind of attach that to somebody who's a serial killer. As if, like, we already have this sort of mystique built. Yeah, exactly.

Like, okay. Like, we already have this sort of mystique built around serial killers than to also be like he's handsome is very strange, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Unless it's like fiction. Yeah. Totally.

Because, like, I, ski. That's what I was going to say. It's always different for me because if you're writing fiction, you're writing fiction. Yeah. Yes. Like, ski all rich and scream is like probably my gay awakening. awakening. Like I saw Ski Origin scream and I was like, oh my God, that is the most beautiful man I've ever seen. But like Ted Bundy or something, like, it's just like, you kind of like see how when

like serial killers like evolved in time. It was like, is it the creepy janitor? Is it the deranged trucker? And then like all of these, you know, real cases started to happen and to get like more spotlight. And like people are like, Ted Bundy was hot. And it was like, no, Ted Bundy was an average Joe. you guys just want him to be like fucking Michael Myers. Like, you want him to be hideous. Like, you know,

you want him to be like the crazy trucker with like three hairs on the back of his head and like three teeth. Like what, you know what I mean? Like, it's like one thing to be like, like when everything happened with like allegedly, I'll say allegedly.

So Kate and I don't get sick. You got to go up fucking gork because of you care. But like when all of the things came out with like Army Hammer, I was like, that's what I was thinking. This is so disheartening. because he is like so handsome and he seems so nice. And it's like, but knowing everything I know now,

I'm not going to be like, he's fucking hot. Like, no, I'm going to be like, it was disheartening in the time because I watched call me by your name. And I was like, if he ever gets divorced, I'm going to marry Army Hammer. Like, I'm going to be like there on one knee, like ready. But like now I'm like, if I saw Army Hammer at like the grocery store, I would be like, you missed out.

Get out of here. Well, he would probably be at a different kind of grocery store, which is a really terrible cannibal joke, but I saw an opportunity. I had to make it. I'm a vegetarian, so I'd probably never run into him. Fair enough. I love you so much. Back at you guys.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. When you're like the third person in this podcast. Gladly. Anytime. Oh, my God. I love you. I love you so much.

It's mutual. It's mutual. I was also going to say you made me think of something there too with like, yeah, there's like a way in which we really want serial killers. Like I think I'm with you. In fiction, I actually think it can be an interesting thought experiment of like how charming somebody is, like how they appear versus like who they are, you know, like that there's mileage to run there for forever. But in the, it's it, we want our serial killers to have mystique in this weird way. You know, like we we want them to be smart or charming or maybe it's maybe that's just something human that like. we like to believe that they're somehow superhuman or other. And I actually think most serial killers are probably pretty banal. Like not, not people who are actually all that interesting other than the fact that they've committed these horrible acts,

you know? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with you. And it's like I listen to a podcast all the time. And like I'm always like watching like a true crime documentary and like falling asleep to

it because like I, like if I could go back in time, I would be like a criminal psychologist because like I think it's so interesting how they can go to a crime scene or like pick up on you know like oh this is like a white male like 30 to 35 has issues with his mother single like five foot like nine you know like probably one eye that closes more than the other like it's just like so crazy to me how they can like they do that and like I always am just like blown away at every time it is like some mediocre man with like, you know, rage issues who doesn't treat a woman right and has like a Confederate flag in his living room. Yes, absolutely. Like speaking of like the Gilgo Beach murders, the serial killer they just arrested in New York and stuff. And it was fascinating to me. I do remember one of the articles I was reading was talking about the ways in which the profile that they had made back in 2010 was pretty accurate to who he was. And that he, I mean, when I looked at that guy, it's not like I don't, I try not to ever.

profile anybody, but like when you find out that he was the person who's been arrested for allegedly committing these murders, there we go, we're not going to get sued. He looks very much like if he was a suspect on SVU, you'd be like, yep, like that dude. Yeah. Like it's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like at times you think that like true crime is stranger than like crime fiction. But then in this case, I'm like, well, things are starting to make sense here. Like this if I saw this man in a grocery store, like, I would be like, okay, all my lady friends, like, get behind me. Totally.

I'm going to, like, keep you. And also, they, like, announced yesterday that he was a Trump supporter. So let's just say that some cliches, say no more. Not surprised. Yeah. Yeah. They said he was, like, a Trump supporter. I saw it yesterday.

And I was like, okay, why are you announcing this? Like, everybody believed that. Like, I knew. this before. Right. I knew it in my heart. It was true. I knew this in my heart. He's an architect. And when you heard how he like talked about himself on video, I was like, oh my God. I think we know who he voted for. That could be like the first. Not that there weren't, to be of Ted Bundy allegedly one of the Democratic serial killers. But I do feel like that could be a place to start as the Trump voter rolls and be like, who here has shady past? You know, gladly go through them and see what I can find. Yeah.

I'm not going to read another book until 2025. I'm busy. I'm going to solve some stuff. He's like, I haven't heard from Garrett a week. He doesn't want to do podcasts anymore. Oh my God, the next time you see me, it's just going to be like. Papers. And we've got this guy. Yeah, there's like dance.

Oh my God, that is so funny. Oh, my God, I love you. Yeah. Yeah. So what else do you want to? Oh, yeah. I was going to say, I feel like I'm bringing us to the brink of like,

how much can we say without getting sued, you know? So my apologies. Oh, no. We're not worried about that. I'm enjoying the conversation so much with you. But I also am like, at the end of the day, like, we're still here. So, like, if there's anything else we want to discuss about, like,

one of my favorite books of 2023. Like if there's anything you like to talk about with this book or mention with it. I mean, we've hit some pretty good thing. I also did not spoil anything by the way. I know. Really. And I'm so proud of myself. I don't know

how the fuck I did it. I'm very impressed. I did not like, there were like things I was like thinking and I was like, nope, don't say that. Go with the James Franco theory. Totally. The James Franco of it all. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Absolutely. No, I think we covered a lot of it, you know, and this has been like a really fun conversation too. Yeah, it was, it was weird because it was both such a dark book and the subject matter of it is so dark, like ultimately that that wasn't fun to write, but also it was extremely fun to write. You know, it was like this weird tension of like, I get to really let my like Hollywood freak flag fly and like just go in on the stuff I wanted

to talk about to the point where it was like, like my wonderful editor who's no longer at Putnam, but was at Putnam when she was working with me, had to be like, some of this is too inside baseball. And I was like, what do you mean? People don't want 15 straight pages of like my favorite Hollywood conspiracy theories. And she was like, just ran it in, ran it in just a little bit. So I will gladly take those out. I'm in a blog post. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Happy to. I have a lot to say. That's amazing. Yeah. If you pre-order the book and you send your email address, like, call this number all.

talk to you about my favorite Hollywood like. Oh my God. That would be amazing. You would have to block me. I'd be like, okay, I'm getting ready to go to bed. Can you tell me a story? Yeah, like just like, what are you doing? Gladly. Anytime. Anytime. Oh, no. I love it. Well, that's what I was going to like, one of the things I wanted to say tonight too is that I loved like when it comes to like the plot. My dog is going fucking ancient back. Oh, Murphy. Oh, my God. This little, this little bastard. He's like so, so good. And then like the minute I'm like done work, he's like, okay, it's Tara from Tiny Town Time. Like, a little psycho. My parents have a piradoodle. And so whenever I babysit her, if I do any Zoom or anything, she's just like, why are there noises and other places and just like this big

bark in the background? So I totally. Yeah. My parents are like, why is he so hyper? Like, our other dogs weren't this hyper. I'm like, you guys had pugs. Like, they come out of the room, lazy. And like, they're like ready to nap. and eat and that's it. And that's how he liver like, like, this little guy, like, wants to run around. And he, like, you don't make eye contact in 30 seconds. I'm going to bark until, like, he's just so funny. But my favorite thing about, okay, well, I have every favorite thing about it. But one of my favorite things about the Hurricane Blonde that I, I think I told you in a DM was I love how when it comes to, like, the plot, the characters and, like, the true grit to the story. Like, it's, like,

so dark and gritty and menacing and like terrifying. But when it comes to describing the setting, you're like, this is fucking beautiful. Like, you know, you take that, that whole, like, I guess like, yeah. Good one, good one. Seriously, good one. I'm going to steal that and use that in future interviews. Just say, okay.

Yeah, but like, you take this like, because, you know, like anybody is like, oh my God, like Hollywood. Los Angeles. Like, it's so beautiful. And then, like, when you think about some of the horrible things that happen, it's just like, I loved how this was, like, one of the, like, bleakest and most gritty and, like, sad and horrifying plots to a novel. But you really, like, wrapped it up in, like, that bubblegum pink dream of, like, Los Angeles. Thank you so much. I have, like, a little, a little phrase that I think in my head sometimes that like is something I'm always interested in, whether it's my work or other people's is like, I call it candy-coated horror where it's just like

this really like beautiful shell and then you get into it and it's just like, oh, nothing is what it seems here. And I do think that, you know, there is so much of that in Hollywood too, like that you do not have to scratch the surface very hard to find like access to everything in the world, the most beautiful people in the world and yet real true darkness. So I'm so glad that that worked for you. And that's like, that's something that I'm always interested in. I love it so much. Like when I was reading this book, I'm like, oh, my God, this is so fucking good. And then like, two minutes later, I'm like, this is so fucking good.

And my mom was like, what, like, what are you reading? And like, why do you love this so much? And I was like, okay, like, the only way I can describe this is like, it's set in Los Angeles, Hollywood. And like, the only way I can describe this is like, say that you're watching like selling sunset. And they like, and you just like walk by a room and there's like a severed head in it. Oh, I love that. It's like, you watch like the hills and like selling sunset everything. You're like, oh my God, like Los Angeles, Hollywood.

Oh my God. It's so beautiful. And it is. But like horrifying things happen. Just like they do everywhere else. Like it's not always going to be like this like dream of like bubble perfection, bubble gum pop perfection. But I was like, that's what I said. I was like, you know, you watch selling sunset and you're like, oh my God, like, look at these houses. I'm like, imagine if there

was like a closet full of dead bodies. Gare, you just came up with a TV show. Like, that's, you should pitch that to somebody because I would watch that. I think, I don't know, that might be your next book. There we go. It might be. That's true. I'll be, you'll be calling me. You'll be like, what do you think of this? And I'll be like, you're a fucking genius. I love you. And then I'll be like, here's one of my dark Hollywood bedtime stories. Oh my God, yes, yes. I know. I know. I'm like, I already can't wait to read it again. Oh, thank you. I already can't wait to read it again. I feel that way about like this and the trap by Catherine Ryan Howard are like the two books that like I just cannot get out of my head. You know, like, you know, like, you know when you like finish a book and you're like, okay, that was really good. But I'm excited to read like what's next. And it's like, ever since I finished this book, I was like, oh my God, like that was amazing. Like everything. wrapped up. Everything's answered. I'm so satisfied. I love that so much. That was a fucking,

like, amazing Odyssey that I just, like, went on cover to cover. But, like, I find myself, like, reading, like, other books or reading other stories. And I'm like, I wonder what Salma's, like, doing now. I love that. Thank you. So much is such a compliment. Yeah. Like, I'm just like, I wonder like if we can just have like a spin off of like every secondary character has their own book like that like stems off from this and it's just like a 50 book series. I like that idea actually. I could just read over and over and over again because the thing that like I love about this is like you know like I said a hundred times tonight like you explore like the underbelly of crime in Hollywood and it's not it's not like the crime everywhere else. like in its own like just like complete entity. And I'm like, you know, if you just kept this like one setting, like your entire writing career is like set for you because there's so many

different things to explore. So this turns into like a hundred book series. I'm just over and over again for like the rest of my life. Well, thank you. That's that's a huge vote of confidence. I appreciate that. That isn't, I like that idea though, like looking at it from different angles would be really interesting. Yeah. Especially with the ending, which without spoiling anything, I really, really liked, like, the ending ending variant. Thank you.

You definitely pick that up. And that's all I'll say. Totally. Totally. Yeah, I don't want to spoil anything either. I really struggled with the ending. So I'm really glad that that worked for you because for me, it was like, okay, it's so funny.

We're talking around it because we don't want to spoil it. I'm not saying anything. I've been doing so good. Amazing. And I know. But given the nature of everything that happens in the book and everything that Salma finds out, it didn't, I couldn't find an ending that was like, felt like it felt like the ending would have to be a whole different book. Do you know what I mean? Like that there's so, there's no clean way to just be like, all right.

here's a bow on it. So I did kind of end up writing and ending that I think some readers may find more pleasing than others. But it was that was kind of where I was coming from with it, was that there's. And I actually do think, all right, we've hit like one of my favorite topics, actually. So I'm sorry. I know you guys are probably like, we have live.

Let's go. I don't know if I'm ever going to hang up. Even when you guys are done, I'm just going to be sitting here like, well, one of them might dial back. One of my favorite bug bears is, you know, so crime fiction is fiction, right? It's not real. But there's a way in which I struggle with crime fiction that wraps up really easily because or like puts a kind of like we've returned the world to normalcy because in real life, even if you solve the crime, there's still that hole there. There's still like it didn't get fixed. You know what I mean? Like justice is real and important, but it doesn't make the bad thing go away. And so I kind of, yeah.

And so I kind of struggled with this one to write an ending that was not going to just feel like, well, we solved it. Everything's good now because it's not, you know, particularly for my main character. Her world has exploded in a variety of different ways. And so how do you write an ending that kind of honors that while also still being satisfying? and, you know, I did it the best way I knew how to at that time, but that is something I think about a lot is like, inherently you want to satisfy the reader's expectations.

You want to find something that makes it feel conclusive. But I also think that there's some sort of weird cultural disservice and being like just solving the crime fixes it. And it doesn't. It never does, you know. Yes. I think that's a great way to see without spoiling anything. And then what I would add, too, is like,

I feel like the things that needed to be like explained are explained. So it's not that that's not that that's what the ending is headed towards. But I, someone on threads actually a couple weeks ago asks like what it makes a good ending to you or whatever. So it's making me think about it. And when I was thinking about it, I was like most of the time what makes me say like that was a good ending is that like it felt almost inevitable given all of the information you learned about the character. And so what I am trying to say carefully is that, is that the information you give us about Salma still kind of answers the question. Like I feel like, I feel like if you're paying attention, it doesn't feel too open-ended,

is what I'm trying to say. Okay, good, good. That's, I really appreciate that. And like, I totally agree that an ending, yeah, my favorite endings of books are ones that feel sort of surprising but inevitable. Like, of course it couldn't end any other way. You know, like, then there are, I mean, I'm thinking of in particular Ashley Winstead's books where you get to the ending and you're sort of like, we love her too. I love her. I'm obsessed with her. And like, she goes so hard in her books. And yet there's this, like, she really, I'm so admire it as a

writer too, of like, that's incredible. And I love that your editor didn't say, well, we can't do that. Like, and I was very grateful for my editor, too, to be fair, like, I hand. handed her. This was always what the book was in terms of like the big, some of the big plot points. And she didn't flinch because I was a little worried she was going to come back and be like, ah, no. But like, yeah, endings that feel sort of like, oh, I didn't totally see that. But also like, of course it's that way. Like, yes. That's for me what a, what a great ending is. Yeah. Yeah. I'm such like a softie. And like I always like tell Kate this, like for somebody who like loves like crime fiction and like my like I love like slasher movies and like horror movies but like I always

like tell her like I'm like so sad when they're over because I'm like I love like a bleak ending because to me it feels more realistic you know like I always like tell people I'm like I like cried at the end of scream when I watched it because I'm like okay like you know who's under the mask but like all of these people are like dead they left behind all these families like nev campos traumatized and like who wants to see that happen but like I'm such like a softie but like I just like obviously got a little teary at the end of the Hurricane Blonde. I'll just say that. That's the only thing I'm going to talk about with the ending. That's all we're going to say. I got teary too. So I'm sad.

Because I just like like you said like it's just that's how that's how life is. Like it's not like yeah. Oh, we're just going to like solve this and like okay like. Yeah. The grief doesn't go away. Just because you have a answer. The storm clouds gone. Right. No. Like there's. like still like even if you get an answer like it's still everything is like left behind as it was you just know the who what went and where or how right but oh my god I think after this like you're going to be known to your editor as like the woman that we will never say no to I sure hope so although actually you know I do appreciate an editor like there are definitely things that my editor has made stronger my writing where she's been like this isn't it and I'm like

okay, you know, like it is really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Meaning, I guess I'm saying I don't want to become like one of those terrible directors I write about what people are afraid you write to say no to. Never. Never. Oh my God. You're going to be a fucking little angel baby for the rest of your life. I promise you that. That's so nice of you. Goodbye. It's like, no, you have everything going for you and more. I am so impressed with

you in this story and I cannot wait to see. like I just can't wait to like follow the rest of like your writing career. Thank you, Gare. That's so nice of you. Thank you. I just can't wait to read the Hurricane Blonde again either. You can't see everyone else posting about it too. Oh my God, I know.

I'm going to be like a little like lunatic like on Pub Damn. Just going to be like literally like searching the hashtag and like sharing like everyone's like post. People have been doing like so I really. I am not. I am not a strong social media in the sense that, like, I don't have like a photographic eye. I don't compose things very well. And so I've been so impressed by seeing like shots that people have done of the Hurricane Blonde, like out in the wild.

I'm like, this is so incredible. I like prop it against a pillow and I'm like, that's the best we can do. You know, like that's as far as I go. But like, it's amazing. It definitely sparked a lot of like creativity with me. I will say that. I would have done like a pool shot. Oh my God.

I know. I'm so excited. You were sitting these stuff forever. I'm so excited to post some things. I just, like, can't freaking wait. I was going to take a pool shot, but I got a hole in my liner. So it would have been like, it would have been all depressing picture ever. It would have been like the hurrying pond like one inch of water.

Oh, no. Like the aerial fly to pond. My pool is empty, but my heart is full because I love that. Oh, my gosh. That would have been an amazing caption, though. Oh, my God. It would have been like the ugliest photo in the entire world. And like I would never do that to you.

I would do it to James Franco, but I wouldn't do it to you. I think he would all do it to James Franco, fine, frankly, but. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I'm so excited for you. And I like wish you like nothing but the most fucking amazing pub week. Because like you have to celebrate all week. Oh yeah.

There's going to be cupcakes galore. Like it's going to be. Oh my God. I'm going to get myself cupcakes for you. Thank you. You should. Yes. Treat yourself. She just might as well be a co-host. I know. I know. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, let's just talk about like this is like the Hollywood with Hally podcast.

I love that. All us. Hollywood. Hollywood. That's what my dad calls me. Oh, my God. I love that. I know that's. I figured someone had said it before me. My dad calls me that. I never thought about that. I love Pots.

Yeah. I love that. Oh my God. Oh, so much fun. So much. Yeah. Yes. Well, thank you so much for like hanging out with us tonight. Of course. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. Oh, my God. Oh, what are you? What are you reading? We always ask people. Oh, yeah. I, so I am currently reading, um, Beware the Woman by Megan Abbott, uh, which is, she is my goddess. Uh, and I have been lucky enough to meet her a few times in passing. I've never been cool about it. It's been like very much just like, I'm such a fan. And it's incredible. She's just so smart.

She's such a good writer. She's so smart. She's so subtle. I just am really, really loving it. And the next up I have, oh, I actually have an arc of Ashley Winstead's Midnight is the Darkest Hour. That I'm really excited. So, yeah. I'm diving into that one soon too.

Buddy Reed. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I'm fucking really annoying with Buddy Reeds. I'll tell you something. Like I like, like a paragraph like every page, especially with Ashley Winston. I like literally like when Ashley Winston would like send me like a signed copy of something. Like she always like, hey bestie. Because like I like literally read her debut and I was like so unhinged and like annoying. But I was like, oh my fucking God. Like I love this. I love this. I love that. And I was like, I'm so sorry that I'm like blowing up your DMs and she was like oh my god like no like she's like the sweetest person and like

she really i was like we're like besties now because of how much i talk to you about like one book even though it's yours so like now we like jokingly call each other like bestie but like that's so cute that is like even if it's a buddy read of like only me just like telling the author about it i just like am totally down for a buddy read anytime i'm down too i'm down too and ashley winston is amazing i saw now sorry i'm just like turning this into the like let's just keep talking but um actually once in I yeah I met her in person at the LA Times Festival of book she was doing a book signing there and she came out it was like a really hot day it was like 90 degrees she comes out in this pink sequin sparkle yeah dude and I was just like you're a rock star like you're so cool

and I was just like wow like she's like the Taylor Swift you know like she like come it was incredible I remember seeing that picture in her stories and being like I can't even wear a shirt I'm so hot right now and she's like wearing a freaking suit. Totally. I know. I felt the same way. I was like in a body suit and like jean shorts and I was like, oh God. This is like I didn't, she did it right, you know?

Oh my God. She's yeah. She and like I could like listen to her talk. Like forever. Like you know how they have those like the sleep apps where it's like Harry Styles like reading? Like I want one of her. I like could you I could listen to her talk so much like you. did we did a live together on Instagram and like on Instagram live like I get like a little like weird

because like sometimes you're talking to an author and you're like what was your inspiration and they're like well this character just kind of like spoke to me and then like I just like kind of like created this plot and I'm like I don't know what to say after that because like because like that's magical to me totally with her I was like you know like an Instagram live I'm like I usually do like 30 minutes like if we go over like I'm totally years for the evening, but like around a half hour, like, so people have like other things to do. Totally. I kid you not.

Our first live was two hours. Oh my God. Amazing. And like literally like I had to be like, I'm so sorry. Like I am taking up so much of your time. And she's like, she's like, I could keep going. But like I just feel like there's probably like three people watching at this point. But like it was like so much fun.

And I was like, I just want to like play this like help me like fall asleep just to like hear her talk about, like, murder and like, yeah. There should be like an Ashley Winstead ASMR channel. Like if she wants to branch out, like let's do it, you know? Could you imagine? And now she's like legit and like every genre possible. I know. I know.

Crazy prolific. Yeah, it's really, I'm very impressed. I want to know what her secret is because I like, it's a grind for me. It takes a long time. But she's like turning out books like that. I'm so impressed. I know. Yeah.

It blows my mind. Yeah. Like when when her like rom-com came out. I was like, okay, so like in my dreams, I hold a knife. I'm thinking to myself, like, this might be, like, her rom-com might kind of be like some of like the darker Colleen Hoover box, like plot-wise, like, it's like what I'm thinking, which like I'm totally into that. So like, I don't care. Then I read it and I was like, how the fuck am I like laughing my ass off like 10 pages in and this is so like, like, like, I feel like I'm like skipping, you know, like I'm like,

like, like, this is like the land of happiness. And then like I read, like in my dreams I hold a knife and I'm like okay like no matter what happens in my life I'm never going to forget like the most like fucked up ending to a book that I've like ever read in my entire life so good so and I like don't want to spoil that book either but like no I agree with you that last page was just like perfection yes I was just like oh my god she's a talented woman of many facets as we all are but yeah I'm so impressed that she can excavate like two very different sides of herself in her work like it is it's truly extraordinary it's like that like meme that shows the two houses on the beach and one's like Barbie pink and

the other one's like black and I'm like these are my two personalities and I'm like Ashley Winston's like is this your like lane because like I like imagine her having her own like street totally totally or she's like yeah she's like literally Barbenheimer like that's what I was going to say Carbenheimer too. Those things were cracking me up. Yeah, that's like literally like what it like feels like to be like an Ashley Winston stand at this point. Totally.

Like emotionally devastate you and then build you back up, you know? I want like one of those like bookish like, like apparel companies to like start doing like the Ashley Winstead line. Yes. That would be cool. I think there's a market for that. Just characters. Totally.

I'm not like creative enough to like draw anything. Like I would have authors like blocking me left and right. But that would just be like so much fun to be like, this is like kind of what I imagine and have somebody else do it. Totally. You know what I mean? Like could you imagine like a t-shirt with like a blonde wavy hair and like a wave, like a like hurricane wave for the face?

Oh, that would be so cool. And then saying like the hurricane blonde under it. Yeah, totally. It would be amazing. Yeah. And I don't have that talent either. I am also like not a graphic designer at all. So I'm very impressed when people have that skill. But like that would be so cool. If anybody listens and they want to make like Hurricane Blonde t-shirts,

that's like what I envision. And like having the hurricane be the face because like you know how like people just like don't care about the identities of like women and like true crime and especially Hollywood true crime. Not to get back on my pedestal. But like I love it. I mean, get up on it. I want my Hurricane Blonde shirts.

I do. You just want the teacher. I do. I just want to like have my own like company where I just like make websites based off all of my favorite books. And that's going to be my first design. I feel like you could absolutely do that. Excuse me. You can have a podcast where we do that. I want apparel. I know. I want apparel so bad. I want like killing the tea apparel. I want us to have like special editions of like all of the. I just want my like Hurricane Blonde t-shirt. No. And we do it forever. We can have like favorites of the year shirts.

Ooh. That would be cool. And it would like the back of it. The back of it would look like like a band tour shirt where like instead of the city, it could be the book name and the date that you read it. That would be so cool. Oh my fucking God friends. I think we're going on tour.

Because you guys don't have any of us on tour. That would be so much fun. It really would be. have a lot of fun. I want to eat at one Chipotle in every state. I'm down. I feel like that's an achievable dream. And one Taco Bell, because I'm a favorite. Perfect. That's my Barbie hybrid thing. Like 22 year old like frat boy, part of my personality is like, fuck yeah, dude, let's get Taco Bell. And then like, I should be like a 36 year old grown up is like, okay, like we can go to Chipotle. And I should put me fresh.

Yeah, they just like made the guad this morning and like Taco Bell's like this guac's been in our freezer since the day's like Taco Bell's like what's wok? Like yeah, they don't even walk. Yeah, I've had Taco Bell guac and it's. Oh, really? Oh my God. It is like so weird. I don't know why I keep getting it. But like it almost has like it's almost like you ever seen like a meme or of like a house where they're like, oh shit, something happened and like everything's fixed with duct tape. that's kind of like their guacamole like started off with like a good concept but they just kept like putting like lime juice in it like it's like very sour but it's like green so I'm like imagining it's gonna taste better right it does but I'm like oh my god this is like a whole lime and like they like just like put an avocado like it like it was like showed it an avocado yeah just like it was just like a whip like they just like kind of like wet like this with like lechro right I'm like, can I get a side of apaca? Like guacamole? I don't know why I keep doing that to myself. But yeah, that's what I didn't think we were going to cover today, but I'm so glad we did.

Oh my gosh. So, I mean, the funny story is sometimes I use an AI summary generator to like write the summary. But what's hilarious is that multiple weeks in a row, it's like two upbeat people have a friendly conversation about. diner food, grilled cheeses. I'm like, this is a book podcast and AI thinks we're just talking about food the whole time. That's hilarious. This is like full circle for us to be talking about Taco Bell and Guacamole. That's incredible. Please have that be the name of the episode, Taco Bell Guacamole. It might need to be. It's like women deserve better.

No, I want them to sponsor us one day. I will like literally go ham like I will fist fight somebody for like a spicy potato taco from Taco Bell. But I also like those are delicious. I'm like I'm pro Taco Bell. I'm a vegetarian. Like I'll order anything and just replace the meat with like their potato. And it is like the happiest that I will ever be in my entire life. But like I am cracking up because like we have a podcast about crime fiction and like books,

movies and television. And like, I don't know how we like literally talk about like fictional ways people get murdered every day. And I'm like, I can like sway it back to Taco Bell. It was Taco Bell. It's like Taco Bell or like I talk about like grocery shopping in Canada or like what my favorite like donut flavor is or like I don't know. It's just like the weirdest thing. I don't know how we like managed to do this. But like food like I just like black out. Like we talk about food and I'm just like, oh my God, Kate, did I just talk about like Chipotle for like 45 minutes? And she's like, I can edit some of it out. It's okay. He's like the editing genius and I just like never stop talking about food. Food is like an integral part of, you know, the human experience.

Who doesn't want to pick up the Hurricane blonde with like their favorite meal? Totally. Do you know what I feel like I need to partner with Taco Bell and be like for every pre-order like receipt you send me, I'll buy you a taco. It does kind of have Baja blast vibes. It totally does. It totally does. Totally, totally does. It totally, totally does.

Oh my God. I love it too. And like, you're like campaign for it. It could be like this and like the yellow from the blonde is like dripping into like the nacho cheese cup. Oh, I love that. And it could be like live moss until you don't or something.

Like yes. Yeah. Until you don't. Yes. And or like there could be like a bus with like a taco on it and it's like the murder moss tour like Of Los Angeles. There's like Selma like here like thank you for like joining us today on like the like you know tour and everything. Here's like your coupon for like your free like murder taco.

Murder taco. Yeah. And it's like a red like Doritos shell or something. Oh hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Diablo sauce because you're like going to wish. you die after you have that. Oh, my God. Amazing. Yeah, we're definitely going on tour. Like, there's no way that, like, somebody's not going to sponsor the three of us after this. Like, it's going to be, like, a book tour slash podcast tour slash, like, Taco Bell journey for the three of us. And I am so excited. I'm going to pack up to this. I just want somebody to have, like, an Oprah moment where they're like, look under your seats. There's Taco Bell. Yes. You get Taco Bell. You, you, you.

I mean, have fun, the two of you picking me up off the floor. I don't even care if it's my own car and it's a weak old taco. Like, I would be like, oh my God, this is the best day of my life. Oh, my gosh. That is the weight of my heart. Oh, my God. I actually did get Taco Bell when I was reading this, by the way. I'm honored.

Because, like, with all of my favorite books, I have this, like, weird, like, memory of, like, where I was and what I was doing when I was reading it. Oh, yeah. I'd have that too. Yeah. So, like, it was definitely, like, Taco Bell, and I think the next night, I got Pizza Hut. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Two of my favorites. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Like, tacos and pizza, like, I'm sold. Yes. Pretty much my diet. Bencraft, Macaroni, and cheese.

Right. Without spirals. Oh, yes. I know. No, no, no. No. His grandma tried to sneak scrambled eggs in one time. Oh, no. I was little, and she was like, I don't think you get enough protein. So she, like, snuck scrambled eggs in my macaroni and cheese just to be like, just, you know, try to be sneaky. And I thought you wouldn't notice.

I called my mother, like, I was on the black phone of, like, that movie with Ethan Hawk. Like, I was, like, whispering in the basement, like, I was a kidnap. I was like, you need to cut me, get me, grandma's sweet. Green and cheese. Can you just fuck out of here? I'm like six years old. I'm like, giving the fuck out of here, mom.

You better drive fast. You don't know what these people are doing here. You'll never forget that story. I was like, no. I just never. Or how she had like the cookie jar and she was like, you can have a cookie if you want because like you were so good. And I like got up there.

And like, you know, like when you're like six years old and you're short as fuck, it's like a long climb to the cookie jar. So you're like, it's going to be a double-stuffed Oreo. It's going to be like a chocolate. It was a fake Newton. She kept a new. And I was like. Especially with our children, you know.

It was like that. And I don't remember what they were called, but like the devil food cake. Like, I don't know if they were like slim fast cookies, but they were like super dry angel food with like covered in chocolate. Like there was like the two cookies that you're like, I don't care if I ever have a cookie again if this is what they taste like. Yes. Light all the cookies on fire.

Yeah, like, fuck that. No wonder I grew up with like a Taco Bell addiction. I was like, I will definitely not be addicted to cookies after this. Big new and as like childhood memories. Yeah. No, I'm like you. Yep. That's all of my childhood memories.

That's too funny. Oh, my God. Well, everybody needs to get this book, obviously. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. The only thing. August 8th, yes.

Yes. The only thing that I will spoil with this book is that I can guarantee it's going to be on my favorites of 2023 list at the end of the year. Oh, yeah. Oh, thank you. And I so appreciate that. Thank you. And I had so much fun making my imaginary movie poster. Oh, I can't wait to see.

Oh, my God, it's so much fun. Yeah, that's incredible. Thank you. Thank you guys for having me. for like all the support and appreciation. I mean, it means so much, especially, you know, as you're launching a book into the world and, like, it's so, I so appreciate it. So thank you.

Well, we love you very much. And you are. We were psyched to talk to you around it. Oh, my God. Oh, I was psyched to be here. This is so fun. Yeah. I was like, you are welcome anytime.

Yes. I might take you up on that. Just like me pop up on the Zoom. Like, yes. Any Thursday night. Yeah, it's like, we're like, like, I will like literally give you a key to my house if you're ever in New York. Like, I'll just like mail it to you.

Like, just like, pop by it. whenever you want. But yeah, you're always so close. I said if she's ever in New York. And if you guys are in L.A., hit me up and we'll like take a true crime tour. Or one of my favorites actually is, sorry, you guys are like, this woman is never going to let me get off the Zoom. And you're right.

I'm never going to. We're here to stay. Halloween time, Paramount Studio tours does, our Paramount Studio does a tour, like a Halloween spooky tour. I mean, not to like talk about the ghost tour, but so they'll do, so they'll do, so The first half of the tour is at Paramount Studios, and they talk about, like, you know, ghosts they've seen there. And then the second half is at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery, because the two share a plot of land. And, like, it's really fascinating. So you just, like, walk out of the door

of the studio, like, go around the corner and you're in the cemetery. And so then they'll, like, take you around to, like, the famous people who are buried there. It's really eerie and a lot of fun. So I'm just saying, if you're ever in L.A., like October-ish, hit me up. We should do that. Oh my God. Is that where Bo proposed to Stasi? I feel like it is. It might be. He proposed in the Hollywood something

cemetery because she knows of spooky. They also have like big events there. Like they do movie screening. Yeah. I think it was. Yeah. Oh my God. Now we really have to though.

I know. Yeah. Oh my God. Could you imagine that would just, I would die. I would like literally just like keel over and be like, You'd become a part of the tour? I was going to say, you'd be right there, so.

They'd be like, oh, it's that podcaster that hates James Franco and Donald Trump. Yes. RIP, that's the tombstone. Oh, my God. He's eta taco in my tombstone. That's all I ask. Sponsored by Taco Bell. Yes.

He died doing what he loved. Talking shit about problematic men and eating tacos. I mean, oh my God. I mean, that is how I'm going to go out. I already know. I think it's me too. I think it's like definitely how I'm going to go out. Like if I like probably like if I like just die of old age on this podcast with like a

Taco Bell in hand and be like, do you remember that rumor about James Franco? Like that and then that's like the last thing that like I ever say. Incredible. Like what a way to go. Truly. I'll put together a montage of all the times you said Taco Bell. It would make the best like in memory of like tick. talk.

But I'd also have some of you like raunchy shit in there too. Yeah. So my raunchy moments. Like instead of like the piano like angel shit music, like it would be like Nikki Minaj in the back of that. Yes. Incredible. Oh my God. I got you covered.

Oh, I know. We never want to die and have people say that we shine a light in a room that we walked into because it's not true either of us. No. I do not walk into a room. I walk into a room like the place up. I walk into a room like scowling at strangers looking for like the person that I'm supposed to meet.

Totally. I know it is. That is so interesting. That sort of like, hey geography of people that happens where yeah, I agree. If I die young, I hope my best friends are like,

she was a salty bitch sometimes, but we loved her a lot of the time, you know? Yeah. Yeah. There's like nobody on earth that like everybody loves. Totally. Like even if you just kept to yourself and didn't talk.

to anyone throughout the day. Like, there's going to be some people that have met you, no matter what the circumstances were. I was like, I fucking hated that bitch. For sure. For sure. 100%. Like, nobody, like, I can guarantee you.

They're, like, they would have a hard time finding people to be like, heal it up the room and he walked in. And if they did, like, I would have so many of my, like, ride or die friends. I would be like, the fuck he did. Like, you did not know him. You should look into this guy because maybe he killed him if he's saying this. Yeah, that was a different, that was either a different Garrett or you're on a suspect. Yeah.

That would be amazing.