Bookwild - Halley's Scandinavian Travels and Trip to a Haunted Mortuary, Kate's First Audiobook Production

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

Halley Sutton is back! I can't even begin to tell you every topic we talked about, because we basically caught up with each others' lives while also talking about some books, movies and TV shows. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

It has been a little bit since we've had Hallie on, but she has had some super exciting, cool things going on per use. So I'm excited to hear about the last couple of months. I'm so excited to talk to you, Kate. It has been a minute, but I've missed this. I love our calls. Me too. Yeah. So I just got back about two weeks ago, excuse me, from a two-week vacation in Europe, where I did five Scandinavian countries in two weeks. And now everyone there was like, you know, technically Estonia is not Scandinavia. So I said that wrong, but it was Scandinavia adjacent. So I went to Finland, Estonia, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark.

It was amazing. Amazing. And it was like in both Stockholm and Oslo, we, we, like toured the libraries, which were these incredible community spaces that like their city is investing in, which made me very jealous of, like beautiful state of the art, like multi-story buildings where they've got 3D printers and these beautiful books, like collections, and just really felt like you were in a place that valued literature, literacy, and the arts. And I was...

Maybe critical thinking, too. critical thinking and I was very jealous of being in a place where it was like, oh, yeah, what if this was like state supported? I mean, our libraries are and our libraries are great here. I'm not shading libraries. I'm shading the fact that our government doesn't support. It's defraving. And so that was amazing.

I went to Elsinor Castle, which is where Hamlet is set. And so they were doing like live, like you're taking a tour through the castle and like somebody would like run in and like do a scene of Hamlet, some actors. and then leave. Oh, that's so cool. It was amazing. It was really cool. Oh, my gosh.

How did you decide on these places? So. Or you can keep going if I interrupted your winnie or progression. It was a family vacation. So it was actually like a more decided for the group. But I would go everywhere in the world. Right. This is kind of like they kind of wanted to go there.

And I was like, absolutely. Let's do it. So it was amazing. It was probably the coolest part. I really love Stockholm. I thought Stockholm was a beautiful city and we went to this museum there. I love museums, particularly like history and like natural history museum. So we went to this museum that was built around a shipwreck, one of the oldest shipwrecks that they've like preserved in the world where the king, it's called the Bossa Museum for anyone interested. The king of Sweden at the time kind of wanted to like throw off some big dick energy towards his like cousin, the king of Poland. And so he's like, I'm going to build the most beautiful

ship that's ever been and it's going to be like ridiculous. And it's going to have all these things about like Polish people basically like eating shit on the thing. And we're going to, we're going to drive it by Poland. Poland. I don't know why I said it poland. And it made it. But the thing was, so it's this beautiful carved ship, not seaworthy. And, like, he gave it to the guy, like, the chief architect of ships or shipwright. And he basically was like, oh, yeah, this thing is not going to swim. But when the king tells you, I want this thing, you don't really get to say, like, no.

Right. So it makes it 17 minutes out into the harbor. in the sneaks. This is the 1600. And it was, they had too many cannon on top. It wasn't wide enough on the bottom, so you didn't have enough ballast to keep it down in the water. So it, like, it truly doesn't make it 20 minutes out of the harbor before it goes down. Oh, my gosh.

Tragedy because people died. But it also meant that the ship was basically preserved in, like, the mud of the harbor. And so in the night and they were able to, like, lift it up and bring it up. And it's, like, perfectly preserved. So it's, wow. Crazy, beautiful. like that's the museum like they have different displays about different stuff but like in the center it's just this like old beautiful ship it is crazy beautiful i didn't know it could stay preserved like in water yeah it's basically because now this is the part where i'm like i should have paid a little more attention at the museum it was the like um the mud and the things that it had kind of sunk into kind of like preserved it from the water but it's actually aging faster now that it's out of the water than it was when it was sunk in, which is interesting.

Yeah. You still need to go live in the ocean. I know, right? So we're all just going to like go to Sweden and just be like, ha, ha, ha, ha. Yes. That is wild. Yeah, it was really cool. It was beautiful.

I'll see if I can all, I can send some pictures if you can put them in the show notes or if you want to see them even. Just it was, it was crazy. But then in Norway, I would say the coolest thing. I did was, well, there were a couple of cool parts. I mean, the whole trip was amazing, but we did a fjord safari. So the fjords are, and I'm going to share this just because it's one of those words I like, no, but I couldn't tell you what it looked like. Totally. And by the way, Kate, the reserve it took for me to not just be like walking around Scandinavia being like, fring and flogging not kiyah yaga yaga like but i was like i want them to respect me and i may need to flee to

scandinavia at some point so like let's yes keep it on the up and up um so the fjords thousands of years ago Norway was packed in thick ice and as the tectonic plates shifted it basically like cut grooves into the land as the ice like moved and so there are these like crazy green mountains and these valleys that have been filled in with water and so it just it's It's unlike any other thing I've like seen on earth, these kind of mountainous waterways that are just like stunningly green. Yeah. So we got in this little RIB boat, this little inflatable boat, put on these polar suits

because it was so like wet and windy and just like zoomed around the fjords for three hours. And we went to, there was a little village there that had, your face is very gratifying to me right now. Yes. These are so pretty. For people who aren't watching, I'm looking at them. It's like stunningly beautiful. It's alien atmosphere. It's crazy.

Or alien landscape. So we went to this little town that had more goats than people live there. And they like make this famous Norwegian brown cheese that I got to try. Oh my God. And it is not many people like. No, it's like 60 people and 600 goats. Like the ratio is like way off. Amazing.

Yeah. And it's actually the place that Frozen was based on. Like when Disney was like trying to figure out like the plot of Frozen, they visited a bunch of, they did like the Norway fjords and the place and they're like, oh, this is it. So we went to the place everywhere. They're like, this is Erindel. And I was like, okay. Oh, I love that.

Yeah, these are gorgeous. Yeah. Like, I mean, I didn't need to be convinced to go to this area, but I am now. It was highly recommended. Like, Tyler, forget Charleston. I must go to the fjords. Yes, exactly. You're like, the fjords are calling me.

I mean, there are also legends about, like, trolls and the whole, the history of the Vikings. And there's a legend about a woman. I think it's called a herda, H-U-R-D-A. I might be, I might have that wrong, but she, like, comes out from the mountain and, like, sings men to their doom, like, their own version of the siren thing. Like, it was so, I was very into it. Oh, that sounds so good. When you were, at first, when you first just said there was a woman.

So basically all of the shipwreck talk is what's making me think of this. This is French, I think. So it's not entirely related. But since I got way into audiobooks, sometimes now when I really like the narrator, I'll see what else they narrated because sometimes it's just like, you love someone's voice. You're like, I don't really care about the genre necessarily. And so Angel P. narrated Junie,

which is one of my favorite breeds of 2025. And her voice is just beautiful. And so I was looking at hers, but there's this book called The Ballad of Jacote Delahaye. Oh. And it's literally about like a woman who is like a legend. Based on true events, a woman of colors rise to power is one of the few purported female pirate captains to sail

the Caribbean and the forbidden love story that shapes the course of history. So apparently this is, there he is. He's like pirates, Bruce. He just heard a car door close. So I think I might basically all of that to say I might listen to a book about a pirate, a badass female pirate here soon. That's so cool. And this conversation has been reminding me.

Now I want to read that. That sounds amazing. I'll send it to you because the cover is very pretty too. No. I know there was, don't ask me why because I can't remember, but I did get obsessed with female pirates for a brief moment. And I know there was like, there's like Ann Bonnie. Have you heard of her?

She would like, she dressed as a man. She was like undercover, but like she fell in love with somebody too. And I think they had like a couple of kids and that was when the joke was that people were like. But yeah. It's hard to be a pirate and mom. Yeah. Stop.

It's going to be a mom in general. Women can't have it all. I know. I was just seeing... Stop it. Bruce, there's nothing... Okay, hold on. I'm going to get his...

No way. You want to ride? You should want one. Here you go. Okay. Yeah, I've been seeing Allie Wong has like a quote where people are like, they always ask me how I balance my career and being a mother. And she was like...

And you know, they never asked men, but the reason isn't because they're not wondering. It's because they already know they can't. Right. They're like, where should be you know? Yeah. Or sure. So yeah, I, I might, who knows, I might get into pirates here soon. Just depends on what comes through on Libby. I love that for you. I love that for you. Absolutely. Pirate girl, Pirate Girl fall. Yes. Yes. What else did you tell me? You say you go to a museum that was all about, like sausage or something like that i don't i did not um okay but i love now i'm going to say i did um i will say i ate some adventurous things that's what it was okay i remember reading that text

like late at night and so clearly i did not comprehend it all the way but i like that i there's got to be a sausage museum somewhere in the world or if not also um i ate uh reindeer okay oh yes This is going to get a little sad. There's one in here that I always say. And then I'm like, I ate reindeer. I ate elk. I ate bear. And then I did try a little tiny bit of whale sausage.

Ooh. How do you feel like flavor? Like or like not knowing what animal it was. Did you like it? No. And I mean, I did know what animal it was. It was one of those kind of like people do. Or I mean, if you didn't know, it was a whale, where you like, oh, this is,

You don't need to return to it. People do eat it there. I think it's more like still kind of frowned upon, but it's like more part of the culture. But this was absolutely like the piece of whale I tried was like absolutely. I mean, we're talking like the tiniest. Yeah. And it was whatever whale is least bad to eat. We'll say that.

How about that, right? I wasn't eating free willy. But like it was, it's more like a tourist thing. You know what I mean when they're like, like try well basically so you can say that you try. it. Yeah. What is bear like? Is it like, it must be red meat, right? Yeah, it's like almost all of them were prepared and kind of like like like, like, more like sausages or salami type things where they've been dried and cured. And so it just had kind of like a more gamey flavor. It wasn't like I was, it wasn't awful, but it wasn't like, I'll return to this. You know what I mean? It's like,

I'm a person who it's like when you get the opportunity to try something unique, I'm sort of like, well, you know. Yeah. I'm probably going to try it. But it wasn't something where like people do eat like bear steaks or like reindeer steaks. Like that's like a thing you can get. Although I think it doesn't happen as often as like the tourist thing it does. But like, but like, I was just trying like little cubes of like reindeer salami that had been like like reindeer jerky is what it was. That it had been like dried and kind of like and it was fine. But it wasn't. I was like, oh, I'm craving that. I'm going to. Yeah. I tried. I don't even know what it's called. because it wasn't calomari but when i was in spain when i was uh 18 um it was like octa pie that were

like tiny and fried like this big and i i did try it just to say i tried it and i was like how was it i don't it it wasn't very good to me yeah kind of shreddy like not in a not in a shredded chicken way though it's also like 14 years ago so that could be the who knows exactly what it was, but yeah, sometimes you're like, I mean, I'm here. I need to. Right. You're like, when in, literally when in Spain, you know, like, yeah. It's what I try to remind myself of, like, if this culture has been doing this for years and years and years, so can I. But there's stuff I don't eat here, too, so I quickly moved past that. Right. And I feel the same way. Like, it, none of that is stuff that I would eat in, like, my normal life. It's sort of like, when you're here and it's on offer.

like okay I'll try it right I can say I basically ate the whole trophic chain like I am the apex predator you are I keep saying it's not the same but I do keep saying like people are or someone was like you're marginalized too you're a woman I'm like I am a gender away from the apex predator let's chill out I am not marginalized not massively right there's there's degrees of it right yeah like i'm not sure yeah yeah well not as exotically um i did eat popcorn from a farm that grows popcorn with your friend lane fargo this week there's a farm that grows i mean the high level note is lane fargo and i want to hear about that but there's a totally that makes popcorn yes so we she reached out and she wanted to do some content

For anyone who doesn't know her book, The Favorites, Bruce just started acting up. He was like, yeah, you were gone forever that day. Her book The Favorites came out via paperback, in paperback. Whatever, in paperback. And so if you're an indie, there's a bookstore I literally found out about this year, like maybe four or five months ago. It has a ton of authors coming in, which, like, it used to be, I had to go to. to Chicago um to see authors but uh i've seen megan miranda there and rachel harrison and now lane fargo um i really wanted to go see rf quang because i did love catabasis but

it was sold out very quickly before i knew about the book the bookshop sure anyway she reached out a couple weeks ago or i don't know how long ago if time was crazy um and was like hey you're in the indie area right i think i'm going to be there for this launch and so then she was asking about making some content for so she asked if we could do some content before the event and so we did shout out to wild geese they let us film there i think it's going to look very cool i'm sure um but then when we went to the event there the owners are so sweet like very sweet bookshop owners um and she was so excited to tell us that the farm that the event was on because for anyone who doesn't live in Indiana or like the very what we call the Midwest but is like it's not even West like we're

like center and east but what you think of when you think of the Midwest fields and stuff a popular thing in Indiana is now to like convert these huge barns into event spaces you you've probably seen some yeah this really basic girls weddings in them But when I pictured, I was like, yes, string lights, tea lights. Yes, like, yes, and fairy lights. Yes, that's the vibe. So this book shop, it's a really small actual shop. And they get like three to 500 people for these events typically.

So they always go to different locations. And so one of them is on a vineyard where they actually like literally, like, you can see the fields like out the barn window. And then this one, they apparently grow popcorn and probably other things as well. But she was like so excited to give us these little popcorn boxes. And she was like, this was grown here. That's so cool. And she was telling us everything. And we, when we found out that it did grow here, we were like, hey, can we buy?

Can we buy a bunch of these boxes of popcorn? And she was like, can you give it to us for free? She is so cute. That's so cute. She's very sweet. So that's like the closest I came to being like, oh, I ate food that was grown from this land here. And it was pretty good. I mean, popcorn's better when it's hot in general.

But it was good. So that's like the main experience I have. But Lane is hilarious as you know. I do know. I'm like, no. Yes. So I'm excited for everyone to see this content because we were telling her this. too. I don't think any of my clients listen to this podcast, but a lot of the clients we work with

are people like realtors or people who like think they're passionate about their job, but then when they go to make content, they're like, what should I say? And we're like, I don't know, I'm not a realtor. Like, I need you to be able to talk. So like Lane was prepared, of course. She had an outline. She was ready. She can yap. Like just all of it. And her mom, have you met her mom before. I didn't know I met her mom. I don't know. Mom drove in because she lives nearby. In case I shouldn't say this date. She is so precious. So freaking cute. She was wearing like an all black dress with just a red, a red belt and red shoes and red

lipstick. And then Lane was in all black. And I was in all black. And we just felt like the ladies in all black with one accent color. And I loved it. It's very like this is our coven. It's great. It was very coven. Coven I'm so glad you got to have that experience. And like, so exciting the paperbacks out. I mean, I know you were a fan of the favorites. I'm a

fan of the favorites. Many people were. And I, as I understand it, there's like some pretty exciting bonus content. It is some bonus content. So some like insight into heat that readers are craving. I need to read it still. I think

I think my arc what I'm saying is I think I read an arc so I'm assuming that won't update but if you um she did say if you bought it via Kindle it will update with it at the back of the chapter so for anyone who's wondering that's an option but I was just like this is so cool yeah especially because like I was definitely like Tyler on the way back I was like we've talked about like Gare and I I've talked about Lane for like years that's what was really trippy about it too I was like I was like I remember reading they never learn before I like I was like I remember reading they never learn before I like knew what any author looked like kind of like if you're not on books you're not always thinking to like look the author up once you start loving a book and i was like i read that book before i even like knew what she looked like and so it was it was crazy it was cool having all of that come together that way i love that like a full circle moment yes yeah and i was telling i was like because we talked about you a couple times naturally so you were a big part of the favorites and i was like it's like how he's here in spirit oh they're there in spirit i mean yeah that might have been when i was

in scandinavia so i'll be honest i probably would have picked that trip but i would have loved to be there with you guys like truly i wasn't yes it was so much fun yeah so you guys have that to look forward too um but yeah she had some funny she came up with some funny stuff too all on very funny she's like not how it happens with our other with the real estate yeah i think you're a little more passionate about a creative job than one you're trying to convince yourself you're passionate about and lane i think authors i mean not all authors like i think we're all to some degree like introverted like we want to live in you're right but there's also a way in which you get more used to being front facing like now with social media like lane is you know especially with the favorites has

done a lot of these events is that like she's you know an old pro yeah yeah I think it did too yeah so yeah that was the exciting part of my week oh the other cool thing that happened though was we were literally um if you go look at the for anyone listening if you go look at the favorites carousel um you can see some of the photos I'm referencing but we were it's kind of like uh it's like an old house in like a cute little like very Gilmore girls type uh like city and downtown area like brick roads and everything but it has one of those like huge porches as well so we were taking photos and B-roll of her like writing on her laptop and while we were there sagit Schwartz my friend and co-narrator texted me and she was like Audible accepted our

audiobooks so I was like with Lane at a bookshop like when I got the news that we didn't have to do any edits and I was kind of nervous because obviously it's my first one. And Audible is really picky and they tell you it'll take two, two business weeks for them to like listen and approve it and had no notes. So it was so cool of having that happened at a bookshop with another author too. That's wonderful. What's exciting. I want to hear about that experience for you. Like yes. What's that been like and then also has it changed your doing that as like a narrator? Has that changed your experience of audiobooks or like a reading? Like has it like you're kind of in, I mean, you're reading, but in a way you're behind the curtain, you're

interpreting things. Like, I'm curious about what that's been like. Yeah. So it happened very quickly. Like, uh, I can't remember if I've told you this story. But it was, I think it was like right at the end of July or it was right at the beginning of August. Basically, we started at the beginning of August. But, um, Saigit and I have like stayed friends. She's been on the podcast twice. and we stayed friends and she texted me one day and she was like hey do you have time for a call and like the introverted millennial in me was like oh my god what happened like I never talked to people on the phone um and so then when I did she was saying like I knew she had finished her book the underdog and that she was going to publish it independently but she said she was

auditioning people essentially for the audio book and trying to figure out how she wanted to do that and she said she heard someone um or someone like sent in an audition and she was like I don't know it's just not what I'm thinking and then she said that she was like I just kept thinking of your voice when I was thinking of this character Liz which is kind of crazy the character is 32 and I'm 32 and I didn't realize that until recently I was like it's kind of crazy that that lined up too but she was like I've just thought about your voice which have you ever thought about narrating and could you edit it and I was like uh I've never narrated it um I was like I 100% could edit it and she was like well think about it for like a day but like I need to basically she would need to find someone if I if I couldn't do it. The crazy part as you guys definitely know if you've been listening was like I didn't even listen to fiction audiobooks until like seven. months ago, I think. And so at the time that she was reaching out, I was like, the timing was just crazy that I had listened to enough of it. I think if I hadn't listened to like 15 or 16

audiobooks at that point, it would have been a lot different. But I was like, I do know how people narrate. So I was like, I remember telling her, I was like, as long as you know that like, I've literally never done this before, I'm down to try it. And she was like, I think we'll be a able to do it. And I was like, all right, I do too. Um, so basically I said yes. But then to your point, then it was like, then I needed to start recording. Um, and so the first time I sat down to do it, like, you just have that moment. I would assume it's kind of similar to staring at a blank page where like the first time I sat down to do it, I was like, I've never done this. Like, how do you read a story? And then it just like, once I started, which I'm sure this is.

applicable to so many areas of life. Once I started, I was like, oh, okay. Like, I do know how to do this. I've listened to enough people do this. And it kind of reminded me of, um, like in high school, I would get really nervous about like speaking in front of the class, just things that are more extroverted, not like in a super scared way, but I would just be like, I don't know. Like I don't, I don't prove, I don't talk like this normally. Um, and I would think about people who I knew were confident and I would just act like them. And that was what I kind of realized with this. It was like, I would just think about how I'd heard people read stories and just like, for the most part, acted like them. And it worked. Doesn't that feel like a lot of adulthood? I don't know.

There's a lot of the time where you're just like, okay, how would somebody who knew how to do this, do it? And you're like, yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's kind of like I was just hearing one of my friends on her podcast talking about listening to a podcast called Shower Thoughts, but it's S-C-H-A-U-E-R, because the podcaster's last name is shower. Got it. And she was talking about how like some people like manifesting sounds so woo-woo. And so she will tell people method act. Yeah.

Like act like the person that you want to be. Like do that. And I was like method acting is a good example of that. even what you're saying like with adulthood you're like just act like an adult who knows how to do this 100% I have to do that about stuff where I feel like I have to be brave do you know what I mean where it's like just be like okay bravery is not the absence of fear it's just like doing it anyway so how did how would somebody who could just do it anyway do it and then just be like I'm just going to pretend I'm them like you know yes yeah but that's it works that's so cool that's so cool Kate

that's amazing I want to hear more about it too and like you actually you have a very expressive voice and I could imagine that that like really lends itself well to I think that's part of it and to answer your question of if it changed my listening experience it was interesting because it doesn't now like we submitted it I think September 16th was the day um but while I was it didn't change it it wasn't even in a negative way it's just when I would was listening to audiobooks during that I think he was like five weeks. I had to do a couple retakes because allergies would make my throat so scratchy that it didn't sound the same.

But when I was actively recording, I would like when I started a new one, I'd be listening to like how quickly they spoke or how you do kind of a man voice without it feeling so cringy and hard to listen to. So I did find myself especially pay. though because the first time my first like I think I recorded the like the first three chapters my first time and I listened and I was like oh need to slow down you were in your talking voice that's an experience for for me one that I've had when you're reading you know what I mean like when I'm when I'm doing a reading at like a bookstore or an event or different things like it is

shocking how fast you talk and you think you're talking really slow I think you're talking really slow, but you're actually like going so fast and like not, it is almost like acting in a way. My experience like reading is where you're kind of, you're having to like lean in and not even just reading the way that you would read, say like if you get called on in college or whatever to like read a passage of a book, you're like trying to have it. Like I have a vivid memory in grad school of my friend and I, we had to do a big reading at the end of grad school at a bookstore, which was very cool of our books. And my friend and I would like listen to each other read and give each other.

notes and be like, okay, you're not hitting this hard enough and like lean into this. And also you're speaking way too fast is like always what it is. You're always speaking. You're always reading faster than you think you are. Even when you're like, this is going so slow. Yes. That's what I was noticing. And then the other thing that I realized, because it happened again, like I would have to, as you guys are hearing these dog interruptions in this podcast, I would have to go rent a private room in the library. And you can only get it for two hours at a time. So I was basically doing this in like two hour segments for the recording part. And there was one time where I like fit it in, but I was going to have to leave by a certain

time to go pick Tyler up. And like the mindset you're in also affects it because if you're like I've got to fit this into my day and I've been doing tons of stuff up until now and then I need to leave and go pick someone up from the airport. Like it was like that was probably my fourth or fifth one. And I hadn't had any issues with speech. and then I did have issues with speed again where I was like girl you need to slow down so it's like you also can't I always joke about when I do my lashes uh technically it probably takes like 15 minutes but I have to have like an hour of time because I say they smell fear and the glue will just get everywhere if I'm rushing so just all kinds of things to come totally that's so true like it makes a lot of sense where you're just like you don't want to be in that mindset of like okay I got to like hit this thing yeah yeah so yeah it was it's interesting like i'm definitely gonna if i were and i'm definitely open to doing it again but i will have to keep in mind the uncontrollable part of my allergies and maybe maybe the combined it long covid or whatever we want to call it yeah um it's definitely something

i would have to keep in mind but also i'm sure in the winter it would also be better but i was like tyler we're going to have to move so that I can have an audiobook career. Obviously. I mean, come to California. Yes. Yeah. I have so many people I know there now. It's kind of crazy.

I mean, it feels like it's calling you. I know. Meckoning, too. But yeah, I love the editing. I would love to do that even just do editing in the future for anyone who needs an audiobook editor. So that. I love that you're putting it out there too.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. make it happen yes so it was i can't believe how quickly it happened i mean it kind of had to but every now and then i think back on it and i'm like i just like did an audiobook in august amidst everything else it's kind of crazy it's amazing that's so rare yeah yeah so that part that part was just really cool and it's interesting to you we were talking when we were talking about speed i still can't listen above 1x. And it sounds like 90% of audiobook people don't, like, once they start listening,

they all are like 1.25 is the lowest, or is the slowest I can do. Not the case for me. I have not gotten into audiobooks. Yeah. Not because not out of any, like for sure it's reading. You know, there's that like, oh, yeah. I think that's crazy. It's reading.

Yes. because and I have this fear and it might be ungrounded and we might have talked about it before but like when I listen to podcasts all the time probably too much probably like affecting my writing how much it's I like listen to podcasts but what I like about it is that like a lot of the time if I if I dip out of it like if I start thinking about something else or doing something else like it doesn't it doesn't really matter I'm not like oh I missed something or sometimes I'll go back my fear is that I'd be listening to an audio book have that happen and be like I like I imagine it would take me like four times as long because I know yeah going back and being like totally spaced out during that part because I was doing yes what happened like you know yeah that's what I've uh so mine's like if I'm doing chores I'm pretty typically fine yeah um but I was actually it was fun that you said that uh I am I just started a book called blood over Bright Haven and And if by N. L. Wang, if Dark Academia, which is feminism, anti-colonialism, all sound good to you in a fantasy rapper, you need to read this one too.

I chapter eight for anyone who has read it one of my favorite chapters I've read in my entire life just the way it deals with it also is dealing with religion and delusion and kind of religious psychosis so very very very timely I think it came out in 2024 or 2023 I can't remember but it is, I would say, yearly, timely, but what I'm really learning is humanity has always had these really shitty moments. So it's kind of like, of course, dystopian fantasy can always connect with things that are happening. But it has a complex magic system. There's like a lot of kind of like thought experiment, philosophical, theological stuff to it. So this was one that I started to realize sometimes if I'm,

working and it's not on a video like if it's images um i can listen to audio books and this was one that i was like no this is one where like i can't even be working to listen to so some of them are you do have different experiences sometimes too totally that makes sense yeah that sounds great though that book sounds really interesting it is so good and i really got into chuck tingle via audio books as well amazing like his more mainstream stuff or the like Not his like silly covered ones that like I think are maybe short stories. Yeah. But like in the last month I've listened to Barrier Gays, which is like it is like the studio but gay and horror.

So if adding that in like so many rants that are very much in the style of the studio. Amazing. And so that was the first one of his I listened to and I was like, this is amazing. And then I got Camp Damascus really quickly on Libby. So I listened to that one shortly thereafter. And that one is if horror was at a gay conversion camp. I mean, isn't it truly, like, to general? Yeah, do you even need to say the horror part?

And it was fantastic. There were multiple times where I was like, wait, is this play about us? With the female main character. And then I just listened to Lucky Day. I finished that like two days ago. And that one is like if you wanted to explore nihilism with like speculative fiction and horror together, he just has really unique books. So I got really obsessed with those as well. And then I just, so he is anonymous is where I was headed with this.

Like if you follow him on Instagram or look him up, he wears this like pink candy. this bag. He's kind of like the marshmallow of authors. Totally. He just wears this bag over his face. And so I'm obsessed with him and I have no clue who he actually is. And then this author, M. L. Wang, she's anonymous too. And she just write, it says she like, right, she loves writing character-driven, standalone fantasy novels, which explains why I'm really loving this one so much in Wisconsin. So she just lives somewhere in the middle of Wisconsin. We don't know who she is. So this is my year of audio.

books and anonymous authors. I love it. That's really cool. That's interesting. I mean, I knew Chuck Tinglin, which probably does come out of his, you know, line of books that are like my T-Rex billionaire boss. Yeah. It's so random. And which are hilarious and like earned him like a big following because they're so kind of over the top. But it's interesting. I didn't know Emma Wang was. That's interesting. It's like a teeny, teeny tiny room, which is fine. but like the only the only lights are fluorescent lights and I would literally like when I was recording the audiobook I would turn the lights off because I was like I'm not sitting here fluorescent looks like totally like that's that's aggressive you said you went to a mortuary as well

I did just done all the cool things so I so there's a couple there's a story about a couple of those things but one of kind of the one of the overarching themes of my fall. I was going to ask you how writing is going. Oh. And for me, I'm got a little bug here. Now I'm like a little like, for me, I've been struggling a little bit. And so something that I'm trying to do is more what Julia Cameron in the artist's way calls artist dates, which are like basically like things to feed your creativity. So I have a couple of different things I'm trying to do. I was curious if you're doing anything that you feel feed your creativity. But one of the things that I'm doing to feed my creativity. So I am trying to do a better job of, I've made a group of writer friends in L.A.

And we're going out to dinner together once a month. And so it's me, Amy Meyerson, who has a great thriller coming out in December, January, if you have any interest of having her on your podcast. but it's coming out. It's Thomas and Mercer and the like Amazon imprint and it's phenomenal. Like union? Is that what that is? I think it's, I think she's with Mercer. Okay. And so.

No, it's all good. And then Amanda Pellegrino who wrote Smile and Look Pretty in the Social Climber. And then Stephanie Roble who wrote Darling Rose Gold in the Hitchcock Hotel. So we've been. I need to listen to the Hitchhawk. hitchhawk. Go on. I was like, oh, Hitchcock.

And then I was like, well, that's not right. You can't have cock in it. And then so you and I both are like having a moment. We are not as excited to talk about Dix as Taylor Swift. No, we're not. And I was going to ask your thoughts about the album as somebody who like is truly ambivalent, slight tightly, not a fan. Exactly.

Like I listen to snippets of the songs, but I haven't gone in depth. But I am consuming all the like think piece coverage around it. And to be honest, nobody wants to be hearing about Travis Kelsey's dick, I think is truly like high level a lot. I don't think so. What I have told people, she sounds very happy. She sounds very horny. She sounds very corny and good for her. You know, like I'm not going to shame it, you know, I guess is like what I'm saying.

but like there won't be much on repeat for me from this album is just like kind of the truth of it and she love that for her i think like totally fully digressing into life of the show i know and like i haven't even listened to the album which is like really a millennial hot take yes like not gonna shame her for it i think like in our culture is moving towards this like sex negative thing i agree interesting and so I think it's like in a weird way I'm like it's probably good overall that she's like I know more of that but she doesn't seem to have the sort of like I think she's very talented songwriter and lyricist and can be very funny but she doesn't have the nimbleness around sex that like the brain of carpenter does do you know what I mean who like did like do you know what you mean like funny and like it's in there and it's like she's like riffing on it it's so it's almost like embarrassing when Taylor I know I know I know I know. I know. Those are all of my conflicted feelings about it because we've definitely seen this like rise in purity culture coming back. Yes. So it's like, yes, I'm glad. I'm glad this wasn't like I'm getting married. So I am the version or whatever it is, the horror, the Madonna, all that stuff. Or the mother, whatever. Anyway, but yeah, I can't decide. I didn't need to know about his dick.

Like, I didn't. So I don't know. It feels like you're like your cousin coming in and someone being like, I have sex and you're sort of like. Yes. Or no. Or no. Like I saw one that was like, so you really just hadn't had any good orgasms still this point in your life, huh? I'm like, that's what it feels like.

Totally. And she's like, do you know these are great? And we're all like, okay. Or like, are you 36? Yeah. I am happy that she's happy and horny because she was very depressed last year, understandably. Totally. She can, you know what?

Do it. Father figure works for me because I'm someone who, even when I was in therapy, the conversation was about how I have more masculine energy and Tyler has more feminine energy. And I am the one who just gets shit done when it needs to be done. But I still don't even know how much I'll relisten to that one. So I get it. But Hitchcock and author dinners. We've been doing these author dinners, which are great. And it's been like really fun and invigorating.

Last week we went out to the Formosa Cafe, which is like a very famous old Hollywood joint in Los Angeles. It like is very well immortalized in the movie LA Confidential. There's like a couple of great scenes that's there. It's got like silk wallpaper and all these photos of like old Hollywood people who were there. And we're talking about goals. and sorry, I like fully digress, but we're like talking about ghosts and whether or not we believe in them. Yeah. Experiences and stuff.

And all of a sudden, up to our table walks this magician and just starts doing the most like insane magic tricks I've ever seen in my life for us. And then he just walked away. And he was like, oh, I'm here tonight to like do some magic things. And he does some stuff with us. He did one truly like insane one with me and like Amanda where he like was, I had my eyes closed and he was like doing stuff to her. But I was feeling it. it was very strange and we after I was like I like had my like bedrock foundation of like what I understand the world to be rocked and I mean not really because we kind of talked it out later

and we figured out what might have happened but like it was truly truly insane and then he just disappears into the restaurant and we're like we're just talking into thin air we're like we're just talking about ghosts and we're all kind of like no we don't really believe in him and it felt like something was like well oh my gosh and that is wild Totally. And so we're having these fun dinner. So I had suggested I had found a true crime tour of a mortuary in Pasadena, which is a famous true crime property. There was a documentary. It came out, I believe, I'm not sure if it was earlier this year or if it was last year. It's called the mortician. It's on HBO about this family of morticians, which is very interesting. It is like a family business that started in the 1920s in Pasadena. It was the There was the lamb mortuary services or what mortuary home or whatever. And it came to light. So goes through several generations.

It comes to the son, David Scrantz is his name. His mom is Lori Ann Lamb. She's a lamb of the lambs. But it comes to him. When he takes it over, they're cremating like 117 bodies a year. Wow. Within eight years of him taking it over, he like started to like undercut everybody's prices,

basically to do their cremation services. He's cremating like 8,000 bodies a year. And people are well aware that he cannot be doing this legally and properly because they I was like, there's 365 days. I was trying to do that math. And they're like, there's no, if he's doing it the way that he should be doing it, which is individual cremations, this stuff, there's no way that that's happening because they just don't have the facilities. Like they even move to like a different facility thing, but like there's just no, it's too many. Yeah. And so it comes to light that he is doing mass cremations of people.

So he would stick a bunch of bodies into, you know, the cremations thing and just hand people back the ashes that like, who knows. Could have been anyone. And they're like stealing the gold like out of people's like. like fillings or if they wanted to be like burned with like a ring or something they're taking all of that and like selling it they're selling organs they're selling all of these things they're like just doing some of the worst violence trust that in in this profession you can do and he's potentially linked to one murder that never he never gets really tried for they didn't have the evidence for and it is a little bit circumstantial but it is there's some friends that you have

some questions and a couple other. And there's a hot mic moment that happens in the documentary that is truly shocking. So all of which is to say, I felt very lucky that I had found this group of friends who when I sent them like, hey, if you want to go tour a haunted true crime mortuary, they were like, absolutely, let's go. So we went, we toured it. You can go to Stephanie's Instagram and she has pictures up of like there's, they took us to the basement where I don't remember if that's where they did the embalming or but there's this big stand on the floor that they're positive as blood and it's just like and right now it's like an electrical services plate like company is whoa I know so they've they've taken it over so by day it's this but like by night they run like

true crime tours and escape rooms which I was like that's a bit much for me the escape rooms that don't be scary that's like um who still doing it at this place that is very visibly once a funeral home. Wow. It was creepy. That's wild. Yeah. I don't know if we have our,

we go back and forth with our HBO subscription, but I need to reinstate it. It's gruesome. I will say that. I, like, I'm not, like, I just have to say that as a disclaimer because it is, yes.

It's a lot. It's a lot. And there's, like, some things they tell you and, like, things you see that you're, like, but like it's fascinating it's a very well-made documentary and if you don't know the story it is a fascinating story that's crazy yeah yeah there would have to be like 30 bodies a day ish that's a lot yeah of bodies a day and it takes like two hours or something so you they're like packing a minute like it was and I mean I think that the number I gave you was actually low I

think at a certain point they got up to like 17000 bodies a day like it was or a year it was crazy. And like so people who are in the industry are like we know something's off. But there's interesting that happened. If I remember this correctly, he like this case is the reason why legislation was passed saying that this couldn't happen because they like struggled to figure out how to charge him because there were no laws on the books that you couldn't do this. Even though of like, course you shouldn't. Right. They have to charge him under like different things because they're kind of like we've actually never had this week. Kind of like AI doesn't have like all the regulation yet. Right. Right. I mean, it's less bloody, but. Yeah, totally. Wow. So did you get, did you get inspired? Which is kind of a funny follow up, but we're talking about thriller writing. Yeah, not directly. Although there is something that my brain is like very fixated on the idea of like a family business mortuary. Because it's so he talks about he saw his first dead body when he was like, like a kid like you grow up around it being very normal and this guy is clearly some version of a

sociopath but like right um but i're so conflicting because like in some ways like when i read stuff about how our culture has like gotten so scared to talk about death that like kids don't even you grow into an adult and you're like you just haven't thought about it or been near it so it's like there's that and then and then there's like being a sociopath and just not being bothered by it 100%. I I I I totally agree. I think that there's like, can be something very healthy about like a better integration of death into like our understanding of life and like the process of like, which is kind of the point of six feet under. That's the HBO and right about. Yeah. But at the same time, not. Yeah. He's like that's not a person anymore. There's like no soul like. And I like I can sort

of understand what he's saying on a pragmatic level. But I'm like right. The whole reason people are paying you money to do this is they're expecting a very particular service. It's not up to you to say, like, ah, it doesn't matter whose body you're getting. Like, that's not what it is. And there are, like, there are religions people could believe in that, like, you're, like, ruining what they feel like needs to happen, too. And, like, even if you believe that, like, once a person has died, like, that body is sort of just matter. Like, the rituals around death are probably more for the living people than they are for the dead person. So like, I don't know. It's very. Well, and we, we think necrophilia is weird. So, like, I feel like we all agree that bodies are still kind of

bodies. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So it, uh, it was interesting. And then tomorrow, there is a rare books festival happening, um, or rare books like. Did you share that? I feel like. I might have been my, I have another friend who lives in L.A. though. And I feel like I just saw something about it. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, they're tying it into Guillermo del Toro's Frankenstein. So it's going to be at Union Station, like the old beautiful train station in Los Angeles. And so I'm going with Stephanie and Amanda. We're going to go to the rare books thing tomorrow. It's going to be going to be really cool. Yeah. That'll be super fun. Yeah. That's the one coming out. Is it because of the one coming out on Netflix? Yes. Oh yeah. You said Guilleradale's, I'm smart. I'm really smart. I swear.

Saturday. Our brains are off. They're on vacation. Yes. Yes. It is. Yeah. And I, to be fair, I think, like, I actually think I went to this years ago in San Francisco. So I think they do it every year in California. Okay. But this year, they're, like, in L.A., they're tying it into Frankenstein and Carmel Delphora. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is cool. Well, I also had to throw in, if anyone is interested in reading a book about a very, very, very, very, very, very dark book about a family of morticians, King of Ashes by essay. Cosby. Yeah. It is dark. Have you read it or do you just heard about it? I just know about it.

Yeah. There are some moments. There's something that happens at 33%, about 33%, where I knew, I can't even remember who had read it before me because I don't think Gare had, but I knew someone had and I like messaged them. And I was like, the fact that this happened 30% has me scared about what's going to happen at like 95%

it's too early this is going to be yeah yeah yeah it is it's very much and a lot of his are it's very much a tragedy I also had another friend who read it and she texted me and she was like what the fuck was that ending I was like it's a Shakespearean Southern Gothic tragedy and she was like I don't think I like

tragedies I was like okay don't keep reading his books you're like that's fair but we that's where we are yeah yeah this was it was very breaking bad Shakespeare tragedy with a family of morticians. And as you guys have probably heard me say, Adam was our white, one of the best narrators ever. So that was how I got convinced. That was actually like the first fiction audiobook that I listened to because Steph had told me how great his voice

was and I listened to a sample and I was like, oh wow. I could, and he just got to like narrate my life. Yeah. Cool. I'm having big hiccups. There's something else you were talking about. that reminded me of something and I think it just it completely left my head already. Oh no, it was when you said Frankenstein which then made me think of Jacob Allorty which then made me think of Wuthering Heights

I'm gonna I'm gonna very much assume that you and Lane and I are aligned on this one but we did make some what she thought of Wuthering Heights content as well how whack is that trailer yeah and the casting

about it I kind of think I mean I love of Emerald Finale. I do too. She's always doing something that's a little, like Saltburn is a pretty classic Ripley tale, right? Like we're talking about who's like, that's what that is. But she,

the way that she like pushes the boundaries of that. I know. It doesn't totally shock me that she's, Wuthering Heights has sort of become this thing. And I don't have as strong of feelings about it as Lane does, obviously because of, you know, the favorites and everything. but I do very much to you.

I think I think I'm totally in alignment of like, canonically Heathcliff is not white. And so that's the screen. And it's like a thing that is even more resonant now. I know. You could make a different point of like, but I mean, I think the point of the novel is that like Heathcliff becomes monstrous,

not because he's born monstrous, but because. Totally. how he's treated and part of that has to do with his ambiguous race. Yes. But I could also potentially see in 2025 being like, well, we can't make the man of color be like the villain. Oh, okay. Yeah.

But I mean, I don't think that's a good enough reason not to like do that because I think you could explore it in a different way. And I think I don't know as perfectly perfectly capable of doing that. But I wonder if that was like consideration. I think it was probably much more cynical than that. I was probably like Jacob Allorty, the hot kid, like, he's got to be, you know. I know. I also like, I like working with him.

I don't know how you feel about this. I think Wuthering Heights is unfilmable, personally. Oh, that's a good point, too. Because I think it's too. You do need the interiority almost sometimes, too. The interiority and it's too dark. It's a love story, but it's not. You know, the same way that I actually think Gatsby is really unfilmable.

Like, it's hard to make a, um, even though I actually did like the Baz Luhrman version of it in some ways, but like the novel is like critiquing the excess and it's like critiquing. Yes. And so it's hard to make a satisfying film out of it, I think. And I think the same is true of Wuthering Heights, even though I love that book. I just think it's like, it's a really good point. I don't know. We'll see.

Yeah. I wonder at least with one of the Wuthering Heights, I wonder if there's a way. because you could include more interiority in like a limited series than a book. Yeah. But still it's so hard. It's like you either lean into like you level constant narration or you have to do something like reading their journal entries or something while they're writing it. It is just harder. Or you have to like like I would imagine what you would do and I feel like some people would miss this or wouldn't care.

It's like you have to make the like visuals of like the more. and everything so symbolic of like the earth interiority and like reflective of what's happening, which I think Emily Bronte was doing. But I think that's very desolate. Yeah. And there's going to be like a whole swath of audience that's just like, I don't care

about that. Like bring me back to like sexy like Heathin, you know. That's what Lane keeps correctly saying about her book that it is it is a love story. And I heard her say it's a love story, romantically, familially, like all kinds of that.

She's like, but it is not a romance. Absolutely. Because there are in her comments. And it's like, this is not a romance. I'm like, it's not a romance. You're right. They're big mad about some of the things that happen in the favorites. And it's not Lane's fault.

But publishers often will like take the kind of easiest path to marketing. And so I think there are ways in which this was being presented and marketed more as a romance then it probably then like will satisfy readers because it isn't a romance it is a love story but it doesn't follow a romance be and if you're expecting that it's not you will be disappointed yeah yeah yeah yeah that actually coincidentally since i just talked okay i see you cough and i take a sip of coffee like very pablovia like catabasis by rf quang is another one um where people were the publicist or publishers, I'm assuming, it talks about it being like an epic love story in the descent to hell. And it is. I wouldn't even call the love story. Like, and that, but those are

the comments. Like, it sucks when publishers do that because then sometimes you're getting those reviews where you're like, you just didn't need to read this book. And it's like, I'm also so, so different where like, if I get into a book 20% and it's not working. for me. I don't even, I don't rate it. I don't like review and be like, I couldn't even make it through 20. I'm like, oh, this wasn't for me. And I just kind of passed it to the side. But Catabast has had so many comments too, or they're like, this isn't a love story. And that's what I wanted. I'm like, when has she ever written like a love story is the other thing? Right. Yeah. It is tough. It is so good, though. If you, if you are like kind of like a maven, like if you love knowledge, if you love

books but also if the idea of saying that grad school is like hell isn't intriguing to you you will love it it's so satirical i love that i mean i'll i'll have to check it out i will say grad school was like one of my favorite times of my life but oh good that part's good yeah yeah i really enjoyed it but it's obviously i mean like it's like fantasy it's all it's just a very interesting genre so i know it's not for if you mostly listen to thrillers. Totally. Have you seen one battle after another? Not yet, but you know what's funny?

It was filmed in my hometown, big parts of it. Really? I have seen the trailer. I've watched it a couple of times. If you see the trailer, he's like, there's this thing where he's like running through a grocery store or like that's kind of where it starts. That was my grandma's grocery store. I used to go and pick up.

Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, I wish I'd known that when I saw it. Oh, that's so cool. That is like when they're like showing shots. And it looks like it was filmed in a couple of, like, maybe not all of it was filmed in my hometown. But like, and we knew that he was there.

Like my mom would like send me things being like Leonardo to Caprio's in town. Like they're filming and so and so. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely like a mostly cross country journey. So like I'm sure there was some stuff that wasn't, but that is so cool. Yeah. Did you love it?

I loved it. I've heard great things about it. it. Not that anyone needs to see this to believe me, but like the amount of notes that I took, because I did go and I was like one of three people

in the theaters. Oh my God, amazing. So I just sat in the back and you know, just so everyone knows I'm a good person. It's on dark mode. Like it doesn't even bring that much light, but no one was in, I don't do it if someone's made me. I, like one of the things that I said, which I think I kind of said about something else at the beginning

of us is um it was almost eerie how incredibly relevant multiple of the themes that he discusses are um considering like this would have had to and we've kind of heard from paul thomas Anderson that he takes this time with the writing part this had to have started a couple years ago and there's some stuff that is like very relevant it's just eerie which is like I think the more that I have um continued to educate myself here more this year the more I'm like I think as white people it seems like oh wow how could he know these themes were going to be there

and they've been there the whole time is kind of what I'm like returning to over and over again this year but it's very very powerful totally and I I am with you I haven't seen the movie yet right and but like I I think sometimes there's stuff that happens. I'm even going to be brave and say this. Like the Charlie Kirk thing. Not that it was inevitable, not that his assassination was inevitable,

but the relationship our country has to guns and like rising tide of violence that has been going on, it is also not shocking. It's no. You know, like there are there are things where it was like, it wasn't going to be Charlie Kirk. It might have been somebody else. Like there's, it's just like that is,

something that I think if you were reading the tea leaves correctly you could say yep that's not shocking that this happened here you know totally well it's like again I know we all have different feelings about this man apparently which which I also I've defeated the purpose of pretending like I'm being neutral by saying that why do we have to be neutral I think we could like that's true I don't feel like I need to be neutral about it I guess I'll just acknowledge that some of you may not agree with me but also kind of why are you listening but the fact that like the ones that I said the commentary I started seeing immediately after it that was like I didn't want anyone to be shot like I didn't want Charlie Kirk to die but he did die in the world that he wanted to live in and that's how I feel about it like he was so nonchalant about children dying in schools and if anybody wants the clip I have links because I've talked about it and people like to argue with me.

So I have links if you want links. But when he said a couple years ago, it's all over the place. Yeah. It's all over the place. And no, context hasn't changed anything for me so far. No. But when he said that like when there was a, I don't even remember which one it was because there are so many school shootings, but a couple years ago, someone asked him about it. And he said, unfortunately, I believe that the price to pay for our God-given freedoms is losing

some lives to gun death, gun violence. That was my understanding, too. He basically was like, this is the price of the Second Amendment and I think it's worth it, essentially. Yeah, it's what he said. And can you, when I heard the news for the first time that it happened, it also reminded me because I saw John Grisham at Thriller Fest. And why can't I think about which one it is?

what is the now the title just left my mind he has a book where it's like the whole premise is the father of a daughter who was raped kills the man who raped her I don't know why I can't think of the title but people probably are thinking of it right now and I remember when he was talking about it

there was this like woman who stood up and was like I just wanted to tell you that like my grandmother was raped and like when she read this story this was like the first time she ever felt like someone understood how angry you should be at someone for that And I was like, it's why that book did so well, because, like, we all could connect with that concept. And so, like, even when I heard that he had been shot, I was like, can you imagine being a parent? And it wasn't a parent. But can you imagine being a parent of one of the children who he just, like, brushed it off?

Yeah. So it's just like, for me, he did spew hate for years and years and years and years and years. and he went out in the world that he said he wanted to live in. So that's like the most concise thing I have seen about it. I think I think you're right. And like I that actually isn't the world that I want to do. It is poetic. And so it's like, yeah, I mean, I don't agree with any of his views and I'm with you.

I found them abhorrent. I say often. I think every, I mean, I know I wasn't seeing every single thing he's ever said in the course of his life. Enough of what he said wasn't a fan. And I also don't think anybody should be assassinated while. Correct. Cool. And like, but that also ties into my beliefs that I'm like, gun control,

gun violence is out of control in this country. And like the world that I want to live in does not include everybody having to guns. Sorry. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. I agree. Yeah, that one was a little bit rough for me.

Uh, not a little bit. Let's be honest. Um, actually, though, this kind of dovetails. because you're asking me how writing is going. Yeah. And I, when I was doing the audiobook, like, I'm behind on, like, all kinds of TV. Like, it was what I did with the bit a free time I had. And I was, I was okay with that becoming the, it was so fascinating because I went from saying,

like, I think I'm going to try to grow a book wild to be even more profitable so that then writing can kind of, like, take up more space in my mind. I, like, said that, and then I get paid to do an audiobook that next month. So I was like, okay, this is cool. That is cool. the Charlie Kirk thing for me so again if you've listened you know I have religious trauma and I've worked through quite a bit of it obviously and I have good coping mechanisms for the most part however white nationalism and specifically white men feeling like just saying

God wants me to do this is like fascism yeah yes not not a fan And just so many red flags go up for me with that kind of stuff. Like I didn't like this man before. There were some people who didn't even know about him. And then all of a sudden they're like, but I love him. I'm like, okay. Anyway, what happened for me, I'm like trying. I can speak.

I'm allowed to speak. I knew there were lots of racists in America. I was aware of that. I knew there were a lot of Christians in America. I did not know. There were a few people where I was like, what? I did not expect that from you.

And it kind of, it did shake me up. Like, I'm okay. And like I always want to, when I'm talking about this stuff, per my joke about me being a gender away from the apex predator. I am not the one being persecuted the most in this country, at all, at all. So I want to like say that part out of it. So it's like when I'm saying I was shaking up by these white nationalists and learning how many people in my definition are or Christophaseous like you're saying.

I'm trying to figure exactly how to say it. So my dad, we all went to therapy. My whole family did. I went no contact at like 19. And that finally made my mom like, oh, we should all go to therapy. We all started going to therapy. She couldn't handle the truth very quickly. And she quit therapy.

I went no contact with her again. My dad stayed in therapy for a couple more years. And then once he got remarried, and we were having to work through some deeper stuff in therapy, like both things happening at the same time. All of a sudden, he just wasn't as into it anymore. And he called me one day and said he wasn't going to come. and I was like, I don't understand why, because, like, he had, like, built this whole thing about I am staying with the kids and, like, I am doing it. And their mom is not. And I'm willing to do therapy. He knew I would cut him off if he stopped.

Yeah. And he called me and said he was going to stop. And I was like, why? And he said, well, I think she's dangerous for our family. And I talked to God about it. And God said, we're not supposed to go anymore. That's such a convenient way to excuse what. whatever you want to do. Yes. Yes. And he did it a lot growing up, but this was an experience. This was my, I mean, it was when I went no contact with him. And I remember there, sometimes you have these moments in your life where you feel like

the floor gets like ripped out from under you because like it's such a kind of like a paradigm shift or like you're just like, holy shit. Like I wasn't like you've been acting like you wouldn't have abandoned me this whole time. Yeah. And now you have. And so I had like months after that where I was really scared that my judgment wasn't good enough and that I couldn't catch people who were manipulative in a negative way. Like it just freaked me out so much to have it happen with a second parent basically is what happened. And so then I built my confidence back up over time.

And now it is a lot easier. It's been easier for years now to like when someone, when I know someone and then I find out, something about them and I'm like oh I finally don't panic and be like I'm an idiot I didn't see it I'm never going to be able to like protect myself in relationships again that kind of feeling yeah and there were a couple so this is what kind of this is what that felt like I hadn't had that happen in a while yeah and I had it happen worth a couple people where like it did it again it wasn't like the panic that I used to have I am a little differently adjusted now but there it was that same feeling where it felt like the floor got yanked out from under me and I was like you too like

I didn't think like people that I've like taken advice from had very emotional conversations with and it freaked me out again um thankfully like I keep saying it's like I'm not trying to make any of what's wrong with America about me however it was freaking me out and so then I was like okay this is getting to me a little bit what what what what are the things that have made me feel good in dealing with like narcissists and gaslighters and that kind of stuff and that for me even in college it was like reddit threads are what made me feel like oh I'm not crazy this is abuse happening in my family yeah and so I got it was knowledge that got me to the point that I went no contact with mom and then everything happened from there and so I started to realize I was like oh

that is what can ground me now. And so that's what has me reading a lot more nonfiction as well and or social horror. I think it's why I've been drawn to that for me. That like grounds me and feeling like I am consuming information that I can fact check or like books that even have references. Basically I got to a point where I was like, this helps me feel grounded in an age where like to me there's very clearly. like Christian narcissism happening too like that the idea that leader some leasers not all some pastors um just love the fact that they can say like well god told me or thinking that they are the vessel of god like that's what I'm kind of talking about the arrogance of that is so shocking and like

I am not as deeply I did not grow up with the religious background that you did I mean my dad popped me in front of a few Charlton Heston movies and was like here you go um yes but my understanding of the Bible too is this like that you should be humble you should have humility and like it is so the opposite of that to be like god has spoken to me directly and i know what's right and by the way it happens to align with exactly what i want yes just coincidentally yeah look how this lined up this text from thousands of years ago yeah yeah that's very much what was happening for me and so i started to realize like I was reading the reformatory when it happened. I am such a Tananarrivedu fan now.

Oh, isn't that book incredible? That book is incredible. Like, and it makes you think about so many things because I don't think it'll even give this, give anything away to say this. But we're talking about a 12-year-old black boy, Robbie, who gets into an altercation with a white person, a white man. but obviously the white man exaggerates it. Sure. And so he's taken to a reforming school for boys. And it was crazy because one of my friends in L.A.,

McKenzie Green, I'll say her name because her dad is amazing in this, or it's to tell this whole story, but her dad, Ernest Green, who is still alive, is one of the Little Rock Nine. So he is one of the nine black children at the time who first went to a non-segregated school in Alabama. And that has impacted me is like I've been listening to her for three or four years. And then we kind of became friends via DMs.

And then she's been on this podcast even more. But for me, I'm like, how I had so many white people in my life telling me I don't believe in systemic racism. And I would be like, I have a friend whose father is alive. also like how can you not see the how do you not believe in it as a white person it's not for you to say whether or not you i mean you should say i believe in systemic racism but like the point of it is that it's not happening to you so you mean like it doesn't exist is as if to be like that would be like a dog who can't see colors being like there are no colors you know what i mean that is a great analogy that's a really good analogy and especially the fact that i don't see colors catchphrase for some of these people. I didn't mean it to be quite as poetic in that way. I know, but it's good. So like,

there's all kinds of stuff going with that. But basically, like, she's very passionate about a lot of these subjects, too. Her dad is literally like a part of the civil rights movement, essentially. And he's still alive. That's the part where I'm just like, guys, like, how do

you think this is years old? And again, I'm going all over the place. But like it, the whole situation was reminding me of when when I finally got to college, I could choose what I watched and read for the first time. And I very much am the kid. We did not engage with the secular world. We were in the world and not of it, which again, like just such a condescending way to grow up. Yeah. But once I could finally start watching it, Madman was one of the first shows that I started watching. But in season two or three, it touches on the fact that the segregation was still happening in the 60s.

obviously I went to school and I was not aware of that like it I I know that we did not learn about Jim Crow growing up like I just know that we did not and so it was madman that made me like you're like segregation was happening the year that my dad was born like are you kidding me so that was kind of like my first experience and that made me kind of research more but then hearing from literally a living person whose living father was like getting death threats as a kid for just trying to go to a school that wasn't segregated. It just like keeps solidifying everything for me. And so she had recommended a book called Original Sin, Original Sin, Original Sin, Original

Sins. And it's the subtitles like the miseducation of black and indigenous children throughout history in America. And it talks about reformed schools and the way that like, I have a carousel about it. So you can go look at it if you want. It says whitewash. The title is whitewashing is not new in America. But it tells you everything about education.

And as someone where like education and knowledge is so important to me, thinking about like they would take before and after photos of like, there was a guy who got really good at civilizing Indians is what they called them at the time. But he was there are literally these black and white photos of like these indigenous men with like long hair. Like they're the their traditional clothing. and then he like cuts their hair, forces them into like military outfits and he's like, look how good I am at taming the savages. I don't understand why white, well, it's white fragility. I do not understand what, like, this should be a part of education.

So it was like, I got really fired up reading that book and then I read the reformer story. So I had like read the nonfiction version and then I read a fiction version. And so now it's like, pick that back up. This 12 year old boy is sent to a reform school on a lie. Like, that's what's happening. And terrible things happen in, in these schools. And that was the truth of that time period. And that's just the 1950s is when it takes place.

Totally. And her author's note, I think it's, yeah, I don't think it gives anything away. And I know she placed it at the end, but sometimes I like when author's notes are at the beginning. It's based off someone who is in her lineage named Robbie, I think Stevens. I can't remember what the last name was. and I was just like, can you imagine writing fiction? And like the reason that it keeps reminding me of the first book, the other black girl, the epigraph is black history is black horror.

And I think that's such a powerful statement if you're willing to sit and think about it. And this book makes you feel that way. The terror of that book is so rooted in the fact. for me that the whole time you're like this doesn't this didn't end well for any black person in this period of time so the whole time you're like i have no clue how bad this is even going to get and that adds to the horror of it all it's very harrowing um and so so i was reading the reformatory at the time that all this charlie kirk stuff happens and i was just like and then i'm then i'm hearing from people in my life where I'm like you don't believe in systemic race like what do you mean so

wrapping this all of the way back to how is my writing going long and beautiful and worth it roundabout I am pretty sure that I'm in which is what I was talking about the beginning of the year pretty sure I'm going to cut back on my author interviews and I want to do a continuing ed series is what I'm going to call it. I love it. So I have been drafting out, like, educational videos that I want to do. And I want, I'm lit right now. I want to try to keep it neutral because I, my hope is that some of these people are more

ignorant than they are racist. And obviously calling someone racist doesn't fix the problem anyway. Right. So I think I'm going to be doing continuing ed is what I've kind of been writing out because I feel passionate about it. It feels like something I can do that makes me feel like there's something to do. And then it's also, it makes me feel solid gaining information has made me kind of feel like I can protect myself against gaslighting. So that's my long. I love that.

I think that's beautiful and like so needed. I don't know that this is where you're going with it, but something you said in there, when we were talking about the reformatory, the thing I was thinking, too, was like, based on a true story. And there are other narratives that talk about this in a nonfiction way. And I think those are very powerful. But I think the power of fiction is how much it makes you feel. And so I think particularly with, like, Blackboard that's rooted in like real life stuff, there is a way in which that is so powerful because it can make somebody have the empathy that. that even reading the historical stuff maybe should, but like doesn't, but like being in Robbie's mind, being with him, seeing him worrying about him is so. I'm like still getting chills. I know. It's like it's such a valuable way to connect to that history and like it should be required reading, I think. That's how I, that was what I said when I finished. I was like, this is what needs to be a required reading.

Not like Dostoyevsky. Sorry. Like this is good too. But like in America, maybe we should be reading the kids should be reading this. Instead. Agreed. Agreed. Just like that is, I mean, I know for me, that's like a huge way I found different pathways to empathy was like, yes, glimpses into other people's lives and like exercise that muscle and like made you understand what it might be like to be in somebody else's shoes in a really evocative way that it's hard to access all the time just like going up being also

like, yeah, but I got to like clean my house and do this other stuff, you know, where you can be in the level. Yeah. I think to what you're saying there, that's like another thing I kind of want to do is like, if you don't want to read nonfiction, here are some fiction examples. So like, and I think I'll talk about fiction and nonfiction in the continuing ed series, but like if it's fiction, I would like then like bring up research about it essentially. But I have been thinking about because it was, it was just such a wild experience reading original sins, the nonfiction I mentioned.

And then my liby holds coming in for the reformatory and being like, wow like these pair together yeah yeah so i thought about kind of doing references for that too but to your point about empathy this is a book i started listening to yesterday i sometimes do a non-pictione and a fiction one and it's called scream with me by eleanor johnson the subtitle is horror films and the rise of american feminism 1968 to 1980 oh yeah i keep saying i'm reading like the best chapters i've ever read in my life, but her introduction so powerful. And if I had it, I'm listening to it. If I had the text copy, I would pull up the direct quote right now. But the preface talks about what we've talked about before, like the empathy of being able to live in someone's head is so huge. But she also

talks about how horror specifically forces you to live in the terror of someone's experience. Yeah. And she's talking about movies. And Rosemary's Baby is the first one that she talks about. But like, spoiler alert, spoiler with Rosemary's baby. She is impregnated with Satan's spawn. And she talks about how this was like the first time, close to the first time that horror movies started grappling with forcing you into the feeling of like, what if you had something in you for nine months? Yeah. that you knew was like that. So she talks that I will find the quote and put it in the show notes because it's even more powerful than what I'm saying. But I remember like being on the walk and hearing her say the way she explained that horror puts you

into the person's terror with them. And like you're saying, you might get bored listening to like a dry textbook type nonfiction about something. But like for me, I will never forget living in Robbie's mind in the reformatory.

Yeah. And like when I saw that picture and I shared it in my stories, so you guys may have seen it, of like a two-year-old little black boy getting zip tied in Chicago. And no one is talking about it, by the way. No major outlets are talking about it. It is that he is a baby. I can't believe this kid was even standing and he's getting zip tied. Then like the empathy part of me is thinking about Robbie's experiences. So it's even like the fiction one that I'm like, oh, my God, that's so pain. So empathy and horror, it will, it will stick with you. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that's why horror is like such an enduring genre, too. I mean, I think we like the thrills, but I think there is something about like, I think there's even like ways that like exercises our own fear, like that you have that cathartic moment. But like, I think it is also like the empathy of it too. Rosemary's baby is a great one, you know. Yeah. And it and then also complicated.

because it's made by Polanski who has... Oh, I know. Then there's that. Layers to it. And it's just, yeah. I've been thinking about that book that you read. Monsters? Yes.

Yes. Because I've been, like, that's, that kind of stuff is at the forefront of my mind again, where it's like, there, obviously there's the author who wrote Rosemary's baby, but more people saw that story because of Polanski. Right. And you're like, okay. the world is not black and white unfortunately no and it's such a complicated i mean it i i think it isn't in some ways like polanski did rape that young girl and he admits it uh yes like that is what

happened um but he is an interesting character because there's so many layers of like but that's the thing like that's that's like you start to like try to excuse it or different things but like he's a holocaust survivor his wife was murdered in this like infamous wife and infant child where murdered in this infamous thing like there's layers to it where you're you can have sympathy and empathy for like where he is and then it also doesn't excuse the things that he did and also he made great like rosemary's baby is feminist and like it's you know it's it's complicated it's complicated but it's not you know like i don't know it's confusing in that way i saw it's like the bill cosby of it all too a very similar one right like what do you do with that like he did change

he changed a lot of stuff for even just black actors for the time moving forward but you're like oh but pretty big ass jackson same thing yeah actually and i think it's one of those things and we don't do a very good job i think we struggle to be able to like i mean pretty with men talented men to hold a multiplicity right to say like yes this person could be a great and but that's what that's what monsters does so well She reckons with like, how do you, how do you do that? And like, she doesn't come to a clean answer because I don't think there is one. Yeah.

It's, it's a, there are people who like, don't want to look at the, the stained part of their reputation. They only want to pretend that didn't happen. And I, I just don't think that's possible or should be real. I mean, I'm not even saying you can't enjoy Rosemary's baby. I'm just saying, like, I know. I can't not see a Polanski movie and think of all of it, you know? Right. That was actually how I felt.

I may have said this to you already when we saw F1 in the, theaters. Because like all of Brad Pitt's children have like dropped his last name, have taken Jolie as their name. And they have alleged maybe even legally about him abusing them. Yeah. And so as I was sitting there in the theaters, I was just like it was making me think of like what would it be like to be the children of him. And that movie was plastered everywhere. Like you saw it everywhere. And what would it be like to be like wishing your dad could see what he did to you and be honest about it and everyone in the world is like freaking out about his movie and you're seeing i'm sure it was all over l-a too like you're just seeing it everywhere so he's an interesting one because he has

so clearly won the public sympathy and the divorce yep and it is i feel like only recently that people that i'm seeing more think pieces being like hey is brett fit actually a piece of shit like And I don't know what happened on that plane. I believe her. I mean, we don't know. And like, you know, but it is. I'm biased because I, there are people who didn't believe me about my parents. So I'm biased too.

And I, and I'm also like, and I'm not saying this about Brad Pitt in general, but I'm like, there is a way in which you could be like, is the worst person a thing has done. The worst thing a person has done the sum total of who they are. Yeah. And I would say no, but I guess it depends on what it is they did. True. But it's the way in which, and I think what you're getting at, the way in which Hollywood and culturally we have refused to reckon with that dark side basically at all. Like it's not like you're saying like, oh, he did these things. That's awful. But I still like

going to see his movies. It's like we're not even having that first part of that conversation. Like it's just like, Brad Pitt, remember when he was married to Angelina? That was crazy. Like that's not, it's so strange. It is. Well, and it's akin to the, it's akin to the, the argument when people are like, what if Bill Clinton's on the Epstein files? I'm like, then send him to jail too. I know. I feel like there is like a strange partisan thing. And I felt that way about like Hunter Biden or whatever where it's like I think there is a view sometimes. Now we're getting like super political about stuff. True. It's where we're at. But that's my view too. I'm like, listen, if somebody did something illegal, I'm fine with them going to jail. I'm not like clannish about like he's a

Clinton or he's a Biden. He shouldn't like go to jail for that. I'm like, no, that's fine. I don't have that feeling. I believe that like law should be applied equally, but that's why I also think there's a lot of people I have notes for. Disagreements with. Yeah. Yeah, that was, oh, it just completely flew out of my mind completely. It's related to the idea of put him in jail to. Oh, I don't think the Democrats are going to save us either. That's like, the other part for me. I love Kamala. I'm reading her book right now. She was not going to be my savior. I was not going to wear a hat that said Kamala on it. Like, I don't think anyone is our saviors at all. And I think that's the problem is when we start to think that someone can be

a savior. I agree with you. I think that this is so funny. I was having this conversation with my therapist this week about like it is so entrenched in our culture and in our movies, TV, literature. the idea of like the one person who nights and that like the like the one savior like hunger games like any of it like any of those and like from a storytelling perspective that makes sense right you're following this one person but then i think that myth and you could even trace it back to like the cowboy myth of america which i think is you know i i love westerns but i think that has done so much damage in terms of like gun control and different stuff because we love the idea of being like the lone gunmen on the hill protecting and found and that is not what it is. Jesus and John Wayne is a book that breaks that down to and it'll

it'll make you double down on that feeling. Totally. And so like but that's not what it's going to be. I'm not saying that there can't be a strong person who rallies people or maybe like is able to help direct things. But like I think the answer to who's going to save us is like we are like collect. It is going to be a collective thing has to happen. like and we cannot be like waiting i mean maybe there's a point person who helps us do it but like yeah we have such a strange myth of like you're saying the savior the one person the chosen one who's the harry potter and it's which is a whole other basket of worms oh god a whole other basket of turphy worms but like um the yeah that is like such a thing that because we've seen it so

often i think it's like in there and i think it's why christian nationalism could pair so well because it tapped into people who, and I say this lovingly about any religion, but it tapped into people who are a little bit more willing to be like, I don't want to think too hard, just like tell me what to believe and tell me who to follow. Which is, I'm not calling anyone stupid. I'm just saying that happens in religion. So then that's how politicians can like latch on to that. 100%.

And I think that's very human. You know what I mean? It is. Sometimes you're like, can someone else just tell you? what to do. Totally. Like the great fleab scene, right? Like her, yes. Yeah, you know. And I think that's very human and it's probably

not going away. And I think it has also been co-opted by bad actors throughout history. I agree. Yeah. I agree. We went there, guys. I mean, if you've been following me for a couple of months, I can't

imagine you're surprised. But when we texted about things we were going to talk about on this episode. not technically on it. You can't help it. The current times matter. It's so true. Yes. Well, I think we'll leave you guys on that note. If you want any of the book recommendations that have just blossomed my empathy for all of this, you can ask me. I can send you stuff. Amen.