Bookwild - Heather Levy's Hurt for Me: Shameless Sexual Expression, BDSM and A Missing Person Case

Episode Date: January 5, 2024

This week, we got to talk with Heather Levy about her character driven, dual-timeline, steamy thriller Hurt for Me!Get Hurt for Me now as an Amazon First Reads pick!SynopsisA single mother’s brutal past threatens to destroy the new life she’s built in this suspenseful dark romance set in the underground world of kink.Rae Dixon is lucky to be alive. Fifteen years ago, she survived being trafficked and abused, escaping her captors to reclaim her life. Now, she’s running a thriving business with her best friend and raising a teenage daughter on her own. Rae’s finally in control—literally. As Mistress V, Rae is the one calling the shots catering to Oklahoma City’s elite in her private dungeon, which is fronted by a spa.But when a client goes missing, Rae’s world spins out of control.Detective Dayton Clearwater shows up at the spa, sparking panic when he asks questions that risk exposing Rae’s true business. After several young women from her underground community disappear, too, Rae spots a chillingly familiar pattern. Together, she and Detective Clearwater must find answers before more lives are destroyed, including those they love. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Guys, welcome to the Killing the Tea podcast. This is Gare and Kate. And we are going to be discussing all things, chills, thrills, and kills. Kate and I are going to be talking about our favorite books, TV shows and movies that are in the thriller or crime fiction genre, as well as some reading habits and other items related to how we met on Bookstagram that will fit in with this podcast. So, Thank you so much for joining us, and we hope that you have fun and get totally terrified. So this week, we're super excited because we have Heather Levy here to talk about her second thriller, Hurt for Me. So welcome to Killing the Tea. Yeah. Hello. Hello. Hello.

I'm so happy to be here. We're so excited to have you on. Kate and I for as long as we've been. friends and have been doing this. I think that the only like really successful buddy read that we've had has been your book because like one of us usually like flies through it and the other ones like straggling behind or like we just both loved it so much. He means that he flies through them. Or I'll like ditch the book to read like a different genre. But yeah. But yeah, we had such an incredible experience buddy reading hurt for me.

Yeah. That makes you so happy. Yes. I was reading like every chance because I was still like busy, like two days that it took me to read it. But like every chance I had like the dogs are outside. I'm like, okay, I can get a couple pages in. Like I was just taking every bit of downtime that I could to read it.

It was so fun. Yeah. It's such a good book. And I, well, I guess we can just start off with if you, want to give people like an idea as to what the book's about. And then, you know, as we talk about it, we will keep things spoiler free. We promise. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I'm like, like, I'm so horrible like explaining what a book's about. But I, okay, so just the gist. It's about a single mom dominatrix. And she becomes entangled in this dark underground.

BDSM group that is run by Oklahoma City's rich elites and when one of her clients goes missing. And then she ends up seeing that a lot of women within her pink community are mysteriously going missing. It brings up a lot of traumatic memories for her of her past. and she ends up teaming up with the hot homicide detective or the investigator who's working on the case. And he's got some secrets of his own. You know, he's got some his own hidden agenda. So, yeah. And the deeper they go into it, the more, you know, they realize that they could be putting their loved ones in danger as well.

So that's kind of the gist. Yeah. That's, no, that's a really good. That's a really good. Yeah, no, that's really good. I always, like, get nervous, like, when I, like, tell people what a book's about, because I never want to spoil anything. So I'm like, um, just read the back of it.

It's so good. That's why we end up reading the synopsies. Yeah. That was a really good description of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. an excellent description.

Yeah. So I will say, I love this book so much. And I think that it is like probably the most unique thriller that I've ever read because of like all of the aspects in the story of it. And like the BDSM aspect, not being for like I would think that like a lot of thrillers when they have that aspect in a book is for it to be a romantic thriller, for it to be, like, sexy. And I really love the way that you wrote this character and her job in the BDSM community as she looks at it the same way people look at it as going into an office Monday through Friday 9 to 5. Like she clocks out.

Like this is not, this is not something for her like sexual gratification. You know, this is her job. I mean, yes, yes. I mean, I would argue that she does definitely get gratification out of it. You know, but yes, she definitely does look at it as, okay, this is this is paying the bills. So yeah, just like like any, you know, it's work just like any other work. And see, yeah, in some ways what is making me think about is like she also feels really empowered in it. Also because it's her job.

And it's kind of like you can feel really empowered in your jobs in all kinds of ways. So that's where I kind of was agreeing with you, Gare, on that part. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, especially when you're, when you're, you know, as the back covers it is calling the shots. You know, she's, you know, she's in control. So yeah, she's definitely getting that empowerment and being able to dictate what her day looks like and like what client she's going to take. I mean, don't we all wish that we could do that. I'm just going to work for a couple of hours

today. Right. Yeah. And hit people while I'm doing it. Where did you get the idea for this book? Yeah. Okay. So several years ago, I should preface by saying, I graduated from Oklahoma City University's Red Earth MFA program. It's a low residency program here in Oklahoma. And if you're familiar with Lou Bernie, you know, long far away gone, Dark Ride is his newest one. He was one of my mentors. He was actually my primary mentor during that time. And when you graduate from the program, the great thing about it is that they let you, like, you have a lifetime

ability to go in during any residency. They have like residencies twice a year and you can learn. You can do workshops. And I just like I was kind of going through a little bit of a slump. This was before my debut even came out. And so I just happened to catch one of his workshops. I always tried to like back then when I had more time. I would always try to try to go to as many as I could.

And I just happened to be able to go there. and he he um i think it was like i think the workshop was getting your hook or something like that and i just threw that was just like the first idea that came to me i was like a single mom domino neuter and i just threw that that out there and just totally being silly and then and then the i did just kind of like rooted and i and i did actually um after walking three needles after I got I had written that, I did try to work on that idea. And I just couldn't, I just couldn't work it out. And then, you know, came, the book came out.

My debut came out. And then here comes pandemic, you know. And I'm like in a crazy writing slump. Like I could not motivate myself whatsoever. I was working on a project for a long time, for like months and sent it to my agent, like sent the big, you know, group of pages to her. And she's like, hey, can we get on a call? And it was like, not one of those good calls.

Like, I already knew. I'm like, oh, God. And so we get on the call. And she's like, yeah. So what else do you have? And like, yeah, I know. She's like, well, you know, you could probably rework this. And we were kind of going through ideas.

And she's like, I could just tell you're just not excited about this. I'm like, I'm not. You know, I had just written a real, you know, a really dark, he's walking through needles is, you know, it's a really dark mystery. That does have, you know, has heavy keene aspects to it. I guess you could say it's more along the lines of dark romance, but not really. Like, it's just really messed up. There are all the trigger warnings, right? So I had just, you know, like writing that, I just, I was like, I just want to write something kind of fun.

But I also know in my soul, like, it's hard for me to write anything that doesn't deal with some kind of dark aspects. So that's just, that's just me. It's what I love to read. It's what I love to write. And so I started telling her about that idea for her for me. And at the point, like, I didn't have a title for it. Although I had, I actually had the title before I had written the book, but it wasn't, like, I just had a title. Like, I just have running titles.

So, so I knew I was going to write something and name it that, you know, sometime. And it just happened to work perfectly. Yeah. So we were talking about it. And she's like, well, you sound really excited about this. Why aren't you, why don't you look at this? And this was, like, late spring. last year, like right, like, like May ish. And so I started, I started writing on it. And I sent her the first

group of pages. I think it was like 30 pages or whatever. And she, she never works on the weekends. You know, most agents, they like take, take their weekends off. And I totally respect that. And I got an email from her while we were at, pride. We were at pride, so it was like June. And I'm like, I don't know why. I don't know why I checked my email. I just randomly saw the email from her. And I was just like, oh, God. And she loved it. She loved it. She's like, yes, yes. Just keep on doing this. And then she also said, just send me pages as you're writing it. Like, just send it to me in chunks. And I knew that was her way of like pushing me along because I kind of needed it at that point.

since I had been kind of, you know, and not, you know, sending her anything. And she's like, really need to get something out there, especially after, you know, walking through needles because, you know, it was nominated for an Anthony and that there had been a lot of buzz. It had, you know, had the New York Times and the LA Times reviews. And so she's like, we really need to get something out there. So I wrote her for me in like two and a half months. Wow. It was probably going to be the only time that I've ever written like that.

And it just came so fast and so easily. And then, you know, she had her notes. And then whenever Amazon picked it up, I was thinking they were going to have like a ton of changes given the nature of it. But they really, they didn't. Like I really did not have. I had more revision Hill with walking through needles than I did with her for me. So although the current book that I'm contracted is definitely going to need a lot of revisions. My goal is to finish it by the end of next week.

So I can start doing a little bit of revision before I get it over to my agent because it is due in April. So yeah. Yeah. So which is. It was so fun. It's been fun. That's how it came about. And, you know, the more I was thinking about it, I just, I really love that idea. One, being able to showcase someone doing sex work, but also processing their trauma

through that empowerment that they found in that work. And that's kind of been a theme in my writing, walking through New York. deals with, you know, it's a, you know, a teenage girl who is innately a masochist, and she is, you know, taken advantage by a sadist who is close to her, and she, and she experiences abuse through that. But it doesn't change the fact that that was still her sexuality. That was her identity long before that abuser came. So, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, And same thing with like with Ray is a little different because she develops that through the process. It might have been something that had always been in her and just through her contact with Viv.

That she just, you know, kind of goes deeper into that and it becomes more part of her life, a strong part of her life and her sexuality. So yeah, I just I love being able to combine those things. and show, you know, women, or people in general, but women in particular, being able to find their voice and have that agency with their sexuality. Yeah, totally. Yeah. One of the, along those lines, one of the things we talked about when we were reading it is I thought it was so cool, too, like, the really, like, respectful way that you, like, showed how be. ESM can be respectful and that like there are like when you're doing it like the right way quote unquote there is like a fair power balance even though it's about like losing power

but there's there's like respect for where the power balance is and I thought that was really cool. I don't think it's too spoilery to say that like Ray is learning how to do it correctly or just like learning the art of it in the like flashbacks to when she's younger. I thought it was really cool because it's like, I've always been aware of the community, but it was cool, like really hearing how much respect is actually involved in it. Yeah. And, you know, with Ray, you know, coming from the experiences that she had when she was younger and, you know, being trafficked, she really, she didn't know about boundaries.

Like her ability to view boundaries clearly, you know, had been. really messed up. So I thought that was, I really wanted to show that. And also as an adult, like she's still kind of figuring out certain things and her personal, her interpersonal relationships. Like a client, it's very clear. Like this is what I want done. This is how long I want it to be done. And, you know, it's really easy to follow through with that. But being in a romantic situation with a partner and exploring that with them was, you know, it's a totally different thing. But, but yeah, like I appreciate you saying that because that was like, that was a big goal of mine. You know, I'm pretty open about the fact that I am a part of that community.

So that was like the biggest thing was be able to show respect for the community because I know that people in the community are going to read it. Yeah. And I, you know, I came from the opposite end of things. Like my writing walking through needles was like pretty easy for me to be in the headspace of my female main character as a masochist. So this was very different for me, like being able to write from that opposite end and realizing really it's kind of it is the same. in a lot of ways. You just have, I feel like there's kind of, there's a little bit more, I mean, there is more responsibility when you're talking someone. So, but as far as like that power exchange and

that, that respect and consent, all of that, all of those aspects are still the same. But that doesn't mean that I did not write it poorly the first time around. Like I was very grateful to have one of my friends, Krista Falsh. She's an amazing writer. She has, she wrote Money Shot. She's,

you know, she's been nominated for Gagillion Awards for that. And she, if you haven't checked it, I don't know if you're into graphic comics or anything, but she has an amazing graphic comic that she wrote called Pitme. which she said in part was inspired from my first books. I was just like, wow.

Wow, that's so cool. Yeah. Oh, the, I can't remember. I can't remember the name of the person who does illustrations for it, but they are amazing. But yeah, she read the very first draft, and she's like, hey, can we get on a call? I'm like, man. trying to people get up to me. You're like, why do people keep saying this to me?

And I was so nervous because I knew she was going to have a lot to say. And she's like, okay, feel like you're this far away from her psyche. And you need to be, you know. And so, like, we had just a long conversation. And she was really the first person who kind of was like, okay. Because she used to be a professional dominatrix. So she's she's got all that experience. And we kind of, after we had that conversation, I realized, okay, yeah, I just need to think about it from, you know, like try to see it

really kind of from my husband's project. And so I have a lot of talks too. although I was the one who like got him into Kings like his he had a little difficulty trying to explain some some things when I'm like okay I think I think I get it now

like I think I can get this I just have to like tap into that joy that she has and in what she's doing and like wanting to get it right because it's not as you know as a masochist you just like, take it.

Yeah. I mean, your responsibility is being able to voice what you want. And then you just, you know. And then being able to say, hey, that's, that's crossing a line for me or whatever. So, yeah. So it's, it's really, it's, it was just a matter of getting in that headspace. And Krista was amazing with, with helping with that. And then after I sent her the revision, just like, yes.

I love that. I remember reading that in the acknowledgments about her as well. I thought that was cool that like, that it is that you are like writing a perspective that's not just yours. Like that probably has to like stretch your writing abilities too to like kind of get into that headspace. Yeah. And I and I didn't want, you know, just like with Ray, I didn't want anything to come across as judgmental.

because honestly, I don't, nothing surprises or shocks me. So, you know, I've seen people playing, doing blood cupping. And I'll let you look that up. So, you know, people into medical play and stuff. Although I don't know how people are doing that now with COVID. I think a lot of things have changed with COVID is with people playing in public spaces. But, but, yeah, like, I did not want to come across at all as judging anyone's kink. I just wanted to come across as, okay, there is a right and a wrong way to practice BDSM.

And obviously, those, you know, that's pretty clear in the book. Like, what is consent? What is not consent? But then, you know, there are some kind of blurred lines. too, which I won't go into because I know you know, but it's, you know, that would be too spoilery. Totally.

And there's so many, like, there's so many different aspects to sex work now. You know, with people having, like, only fans and, like, cam shows and things like that. I thought the way that you wrote a sex worker was so respectful.

And so that's what I was going to ask you is if there was any you know, like how invasive the research was into this because I think that for writing a book about not only sex work but also in that kink community that you were so respectful and I think that you will actually open a lot of people's eyes who kind of shy away from that aspect or who still kind of view it as something that's like taboo and the way that you wrote it was just so respect.

but also like really eye opening in like you said like with consent and you know how it really does play out. Yeah. You know, I I do know quite a few people who have been or are in, you know, various aspects of sex work. And I also kind of like, you know, I think some people, they view themselves as sex workers and some who do different. types of work like, you know, dominating work, they don't put themselves in that category. So I think that's kind of a, you know, that's a whole other aspect. So I, you know, I spoke of a lot of people about that. You know, some I could not mention it at all in my acknowledgments, though I wanted to. But, you know, the people who, I would say most people, as far as like

dominatrix work they do see themselves as sex workers um i can't say that you know i've known i've known a couple of people who who uh do sex sex work um and you know some have not have good experiences they're not they're not in it any longer uh some you know have done it because they out of necessity because they were in bad situations. So, you know, it's not always, it's not all like the fun, sexy, that's, you know, necessarily presented in a lot of works. But for people who are doing it, who want to do it, who have full agency, they, you know, they do feel that they are in a position where they can't.

really talk about it publicly because one, you know, some of them have kids, you know, just like Ray. And they, they have a fear of repercussions of that. I mean, I know even talking about publicly myself and having kids, like, it's, it's, it was really kind of, okay, how much do I want to say? But I've got a story that goes a lot. I'm talking the story Okay, maybe I go on tangents

so you have to like kind of like I try not to go on tangents my husband's like don't go on too many tangents because I'll forget where I'm at and then I like

we'll forget the original question but but yeah so I'll just say yes I spoke with a lot of people who were in sex work it was really really important to be able to

show their voices in some aspects within the story. But as far as like, you know, people who are doing sex work or people who are in kink and being able to portray it in this normalized fashion, which was that was one of the big things. I wanted to show it to hopefully let people know who are maybe curious, little kink curious people out there, that you know there there's lessening shame in it like I think the more we see it in the media you know various medias and books where it's not just like the bad guys are sadists because you know you see that a lot and especially in like TV shows and film like it's okay there's the bad guy because

Yeah. So yeah, to show it in a different way. And there's, and they're, you know, I think that a lot of, especially like shows, what was that one show bonding? Is that? Is that? I was thinking, I don't know if you ever watched billions, but that was one that incorporated it as well. Yeah. So, you know, shows and film like that, they're, I think they're kind of taking it to the place where, okay. okay, this is, this is, you know, becoming more, a more normal aspect to sexuality. But I was going to say, okay, so the story. So back whenever my, my husband and I played more in, like, private dungeon situations, we, our son, he was, like, pretty young at the time. and so he was in daycare and we were at

we were at one of the play parties with some friends and this couple looking over at us and they just like kept them just eyeing us forever and then they were looking around at what like the various scenes that were going on

and they finally came over to us and and they were like hey, I think we know you. And they did look familiar, but I could not place them whatsoever. And they're like, yeah, doesn't your kid go to, like, the same daycare as myself? They're like, yeah. And then they, like, they kept, like, asking certain questions that, you know, they're like, what's going on there? like somebody was on at St. Andrew's Cross getting whipped.

And there was like another scene going on. And they just looked so confused. And they're like, well, you know, is there like a place where people are like kind of, you know, hooking up, basically? And I'm like, oh, what kind of party do you think this is? And they were there for, they thought they were going on. like the space had like a swingers night, like they would do swingers nights. So they thought they were there for a swingers party.

And I'm like, oh, no, that's that's not tonight. And no, we don't do that. That's like kind of a whole other thing too. There are so many, you know, misconceptions about pink in general. you know, a lot of people who assume, okay, if you're into one certain aspect of it, then you must be into this. Like, oh, you want to be into orgies or whatever. And, you know, there are people who are asexual who are in a BDSM. So, like, yeah.

Yeah. So there's not always like a sexual aspect to it. You know, like you're talking about the power exchange. there's there's a lot like 99% of it is is mental um of what what's going on so uh yeah it was just it was just hilarious but it was it was also one of those eye-opening moments that that made me realize just how many like just normal people you know that you see in your daily lives and yeah and after i i guess you could say after i came out um whenever I had written an article like many years ago and and I started having like people read it

and they started contacting me and asking me questions and then and then there were a lot of people who you know had a lot to say about that in a negative way too but for the most part people were very positive and curious and they went and they you know were asking questions about like how, you know, how do I, you know, get introduced some of this into my own life. And so, you know, kind of told them, because I mean, I didn't have that either. I was, I was this like teenage kid who was, was, you know, doing various things to cause myself pain and, because I knew that that's what I liked. But I did, I had no idea what that was. It wasn't until I saw like one of those late night HBO specials.

And I was like, oh, there's like a whole bunch of people like this. Yeah. Yeah. So it was like, okay. But, but yeah, like, it is, it's so, there's so many people who are into it. Like, I have so many people who came up to me after my debut and they're like, oh, yeah, I'm into this. Like there was a whole, a whole group of, I won't say who in the writing world, but there were like a whole watching writers were like talking about it and and it was it just opened up so many conversations and um and

and it and it was exciting to to see that and and that's why i wanted like it was really easy in the book um to just be able to present it in kind of an educational way because ray was being educated right right but i did i was trying not to make it like too like here you go yeah yeah no i thought it was very educational and that's why I was like there must have been a lot of you know research that would have had to go into something like this because I don't think that you know not to say anything against any other authors but I don't think that anybody else would be able to tell this story with so much respect in all of the aspects that you could well I that I mean that's like really that makes me so that's the happiest thing for you know that makes me

so happy you to hear that because that was such a that was like the thing I was worried about the most with writing this book was just how how the community was going to be viewed because of it but yeah I

you know I I have certainly read a lot of books where I can immediately tell that they like are not coming from a place of knowledge on it Yeah. Yeah.

And it's frustrating, you know, whenever that happens. I mean, I'm sure it's like, you know, it's just as frustrating whenever like a person of color or somebody, you know, who's in the career community, like, sees representation and you're like, but. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's very much like that. And I've had, and I've had a lot of, like, since my first book came out and, and with. this book coming out. I've had a lot of like fellow writers contact me and I've had conversations with them by phone like, you know, asking me questions involving kink. Like they want to, because they're writing something that involves kink and they want to get it right. And I, and I appreciate that.

Like, yeah, I guess I guess there's a kink sensitivity reader. You're right. Well, I mean, I would assume there would be too. That checks out though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because like you said, I mean, it's like anything else. Like I've actually, watch like different documentaries on on sex work and you know some of the the things that people have to go to or go through regarding like shame you know like there's been people who I think there was like one I saw on HBO and it was about a girl who was a cam model and she was like you know yeah like she's like you know like I tell people I'm a sex worker and they think that I'm a like sex sex worker you know. and they like people would call her like different like derogatory names and she was like I've never actually had sex with anyone for money but I still consider myself to be a sex worker because of what I'm doing and she like really you know was trying to like open up people's eyes to like the different aspects of of sex work and and things like that so I just think that it's really interesting

how you know how you wrote it and the respect that you you have on it because like I said I don't think that there's anybody else that would be able to have that much respect and include that educational aspect without like you said like kind of seemed like here you go like a you know like a manual almost but yeah um you know there was like no pamphlet in it but I was like learning a lot just from reading the book so I just thought it was incredible and then also you have like the mystery element and the pacing and you kind of dual timelines. Oh my God. I love a dual timeline so much. And I was like, especially when they're like crashing together at the end. When they're clashing together.

But I also like will say this is the one book that like really like gave me a good mind fuck because I always read a book with a dual timeline and I'm like there's one timeline that I like like more than the other. You know like even if I love one book, there's always like one timeline that like I get to the other one. I'm like, okay, like, I can't wait to get back to the other one. But with yours, I was addicted to both of them. So like, whenever a chapter would end, I was like, okay, obviously I have to keep going. But like, I love both timelines so much that I was like so pumped to like be wherever you were taking me in the book. Your pacing is incredible. You're pacing.

So cute. That's one. That's one thing. That's one thing I'm struggling with, with my, my, her book and I'm and I'm trying to tell myself it was it was kind of funny I'm sure my agent will hate me saying this but like whenever they whenever they announced my next book I think they put it out as a thriller and I'm like what because that wasn't even like hurt for me they had sold it as a dark romance so I was like okay and and I was so scared whenever things started when they switched over to like thriller and like kind of push it like that because I had never written a thriller. Like my first book was not a thriller.

I wouldn't call it a thriller at all. Like it was very much like a, you know, a dark dual timeline. Dual time. My first book, dual timeline, dual P-O-B. So, you know, just because I wanted to torture myself that much. Right. But, you know, writing that way, I don't know. like I feel like it

it is tricky yes but it feels so natural to me like I don't it just feels natural and and the the current book that I'm writing like I it's it's stuff it's a dual timeline

but a single POV so like like raise but there's also an additional POV like with a one of the characters their journal so

and I'm like and I had to be careful about that too because I like I don't want to have I didn't want to have anything you know when you see like people um what am I trying to say like they're like I'll just throw in a journal to like get information out oh yeah I don't want to get that um but it's definitely like this one is definitely like kind of I guess leaning more on the dark romance because I honestly until I I didn't realize what a dark romance was. until I was reading some, you know, some reviews, which I now know not to do that. Like, everyone kept saying, don't read, don't read your, don't read their reviews, especially like the Amazon first reads reviews. And I'm like, okay, because it's just, you know, what are like, people who maybe don't even know the genre. Yeah. Right.

And, and, you know, I was like, is that what dark romances? Like, okay, well, you know, whenever, whenever, and I would say probably most writers feel the same way. Maybe I shouldn't speak for them. But I'll say most writers feel the same way that, like, you're just writing the book. You're just writing the book. And then however it's marketed is how it's marketed. And I think as you kind of, because I'm so early in my career, I don't, I haven't really thought about those things like, oh, I need to include this trope because people are going to be looking for it.

So I kind of go into it blind a little bit. And now, like with this current book that I'm, you know, working on, I'm like, okay, now I'm, like, more aware of it. So, yeah, and I hate that. I think that's like what kind of trips, for me personally, it trips me. up. So I'm like, okay, I'm just going to write. I'm just going to write. And if I love it, then that's, then that's all that really matters. And then whatever happens, happens. And they'll come back and they'll tell me whatever. But I just kind of like forewarned my, my agent, because she's, I'm going to send it to her right before she like goes out of the

country to go with some family. And I'm like, it's going to be different. It's different. But there's a lot of sex. I would say it's steamyer than hurt for me because it's like coming from. I think whenever you have characters that are new to each other, like there's that, that excitement, yeah. Whatever. A little bit of angst. Yeah, there's a little bit angst.

That's my favorite. Enemy's to lovers. Oh, I love enemies to lovers. You wrote my dream book. I'm so excited. And then, you know, like whenever you're writing about, like, my, you know, first book involved, you know, characters that knew each other. And then this book is also involving characters who knew each other who are like, you know, the person comes back to their town and everything like, okay, they have to face each other and all this. And I love that, though.

I love the history of it. Yeah. I love the excitement of like new relationships, but, but I, there's just something about like characters that have known each other on that deep level. Because they can hurt each other deeper too. Yeah. And this book definitely tells what this. You are talking right up Gair's alley. Yeah, yeah.

I think that like, I don't know. I think that from how you write and like how, how. character-driven hurt for me is that like it doesn't matter what they market your book as like people are going to eat that shit up because like when I was reading her for me like it was one of the first times that I wasn't trying to figure something out and I wasn't like really thinking like oh I'm going to try to guess the ending to this and I'm going to try to do this because I was so wrapped up in Ray's character that I was like I don't care I just want to be with her I want to go through this with her and like it was so character driven that like you could have marketed it as

anything and like people are going to read it and like think it's fantastic because like I just can't and you know what the thing is too let's be honest like I love working with different publishers on books and things like that but like if somebody dies in a book if it's dark in any way or if somebody goes missing they're going to be like it's a thriller because like thrillers are are popular, you know, but like, I think that you are going to have the experience that when people read this book, they're going to follow you no matter where you go in whatever genre it is. Cute. And if they don't, they're done.

I follow you. I'm going everywhere. I'm going everywhere. I'm going everywhere. But yeah, I mean, if there's any like any sort of like mystery or suspense or thriller element, they're just going to market it. as a thriller. Yeah. Yeah.

You know. You know, and we've read some, some books that were heavily marketed as thrillers and you're like, yeah. Yeah. Okay, you're right. Yes. Yes. There's like a twist at the end and you're like, where the hell that comes from?

You're like, that doesn't make the thriller? And it didn't make sense. Yeah. Like, you know, like I'm always for the character-driven stories. Like, yeah. I mean, there are, there are so many. authors that I will I will follow to the ends of the earth. I don't care what they write. And I yeah, like they can they can write my grocery lists. I will read it and I will love it and cry

over it. So yeah, I get that and to dare you say that like that, that, that, that like that's like amazing to hear. So thank you. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that it's such a good story. And like I said, it's the most unique mystery thriller suspense book that I've ever read. And, you know, initially going into it, when it was presented to me, I was like telling, I actually told this to Kate, there are sometimes when something is marketed as a romantic suspense or you believe that it's a romantic suspense, that there's so much focus on like the romance part that like the, the reason that you're here kind of like falls on the back burner. and I just did not feel that way with this one.

You know, like there were just so many elements going on. It's almost like a genre like tornado, you know, like everything that you're trying to hit in the book is like happening. It's not like somebody goes missing on page one and then you revisit it on page 150. You know, stories like that, you know, but yeah, I think that you having a book that is very character driven with a character that people really feel. and can connect to in whatever aspect that they can and being with that person side by side as they go through all of these different emotions and elements in their life. And, you know, yes, there is a mystery element. But like, everybody wants to know what happened. But like, I was like, sometimes when I was reading it, I was like, oh, that's right. There's, there's, there's

somebody missing. There's people missing in this book. We got to get like, we got to get back to here because I was just like, I don't care where she goes. Like, if she wants to be. Like, if she let's go grocery shopping, like, I'll, I'll grab the oranges and bag them up for, like, whatever she wants to do, like, I'm going to be there. And I think that there's also probably a lot of your voice in that character, too. Yeah. You know. And I mean, it's, it's hard not to have your, you know, that's just how it is. And, and I, you know, anytime that I'm writing a character, I try to think, okay, I still have to

make these decisions like these decisions like are their decisions and there's a certain part there's like there's a point when you're writing because like whenever I'm first writing I don't know who the hell they are I am I am not one of those I wish I were I am 100% of pancer I try like the book that I'm working on I'm really like I have like a you know synopsis that I'm working off of and I'm trying to follow it and I am not. But and I and I'm not one of those people either. Like I know so many writer friends who like they will write pages and pages about their character. Like what is their favorite food and and all these things and like go over just like it's just amazingly detailed.

And I just, I write the voice, like I have an initial idea of the voice. And then as I'm writing, then I, like, I really understand them. And it's like, oh, okay. This is what they're wanting to do. And sometimes, you know, the character will do something that I hadn't intended for them to do. And I'm like, just go with it. And so a lot of, you know,

lot of hurt for me was just kind of, okay, this is the ride that we're going on. And I almost felt like I didn't have a lot of control or say in it. And when it gets to that point, when, like, I'm writing a character, that's when I know this, this character is now living, breathing, independent of me. I don't know. That's like a weird way to describe it. But like that, it feels like that. It feels like, okay. And that's when it, you know, it gets so hard whenever you hit the end.

And it's like, oh, okay, I just want to immediately write another book with this character. But it's like, you can't because like, that's their story. Unless you're writing a series. And I have never, I've never had a desire to write a series. But I am

writing like, like the book that I'm working on right now and then the book that I will be working on afterwards which is dealing with the burlesque world um I'm obsessed with burlesque um I'm actually going to a burlesque festival here in Oklahoma City this weekend it's the second um annual weird lesk fest so it has like all all kinds of burlesque work like traditional classic um fetish and nerd nerdy kind cosplay all that's all that fun stuff um So I'll be working on a book. I'm really excited about doing some research on that. A lot of my friends are burles workers.

So and that's another, you know, a lot of them do consider themselves to be sex workers. So it's a different type of sex work. But yeah, so like this, you know, her for me, the book I'm working on next has a character that is from the same world as Ray and Dayton. And then the next book will also have, like, people within that world. So you'll, you'll, like, see, you'll see, you'll see, you may see some people pop up here and there. That's so cool. Yeah. So, but, yeah, like, just people within the world.

You may be, they may be, like, somewhere in the background, like, and hurt for me. And you'll be like, oh. Yeah. Is that person too familiar? That's really interesting, too, because, like, I was going to say to you, like, if you don't want to say goodbye to Ray, you could always just have her be like, you know, just like pop up somewhere just to say hi or you know something yeah so that's really cool that you say that because i really like that too i think um jennifer hillier does that a lot yes oh my gosh she's one of my favorites i love jennifer me too i love her so much but i love that she has like some characters

that pop up in in different books yeah um oh my gosh she needs she needs to she needs to just write faster. Right. We were just talking about that. She's got a young, she's got a young kid, so I understand that. I mean, I don't even know how, like, people, people were like, how do you even, what do you write? Like, two hours every night, that's, that's, that, that's like my schedule. I had to have, like, a really, after hurt for me, I had to, like, have a really strict schedule.

And, and just, like, kind of killing myself with getting. this book because as soon as as like I had a deadline for it it's the first time that I've sold a book on pitch and I did not realize how fast they wanted it okay

so I mean I guess the good the good thing is they apparently don't mind like they know that it's going to be like pretty rough they expect that but my type A personality I'm like a perfectionist. So it's really, really hard for me to say, okay, here's a book that I know is not where it needs

to be. So I don't know. It's going to be hard. So we'll see how that goes. We've talked to a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. We've talked to like a lot of people.

And I always like find that to be very interesting when. they are promoting and releasing a book and they're already working on something different because like for me just being a little like I like to be a little lazy daisy have a soft life every now and then but like I would be like let me enjoy the release of this book for like six months before I start writing something because it must be like kind of tough to be like celebrating and promoting this story that like you put a lot of heart and effort into and like you know is like blood sweat and tears and then you're also like like. like trying to enter into this other story as you write at the same time.

So I can imagine that's like a lot. Yeah. I mean, really the hardest thing is with my head being in the headspace of my current book. And then and then happen to like it's, it's fun like just talking with you all because you're the first ones I've really have talked about the book with so far. So it's it's like it's fun being able to talk. about it and revisit those characters and those themes. But at the same time, I imagine it's something, it's kind of like somebody who's bilingual,

which I am not. And they're like, you know, they might have like the other language going on in their head. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it feels like. It feels like kind of, you know, oh, all right, now I got to like really kind of think about this. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it is hard.

I'm not going to lie, like, trying to promote a book while you're still working on the next book. And with Amazon, you know, they, I think for the most part, they like for their authors to have a book out of year. So it kind of comes out at the same time. so I'll like the next book is planned for I think around the same time that hurt for me so it'll be like a February release and I'm just like okay do want to have like I want to have a breather but I really can't have one because I will be in the middle of edits and then I'll have to immediately work on the next book but yeah so I'm kind of I'm kind of debating whether or not I'm going to have like a conversation with my editor and be like, hey, maybe we can look at like a mid-year, like a, you know, late spring or early summer release for the next next book.

So that way I really have time to get into it because it's going to, the next book will, it will have kind of like that fun vibe of hurt for me, still with the dark. but but it's uh yeah like it's it's it's very it's so different from the current book that i'm working on uh from you know like hurt for me is just so so different um and that's always like kind of the fear too in the back of your mind like as an author like you want to be able to write what you want to write but there's the fear of losing the readership that you're building if you go too far outside of what they're expecting of you. But like I have to tell the story that I don't want to tell.

Well, on the same aspect, there's also a ton of people that you will gain as readers by telling, you know, the story that you want to tell because they might, they might not be into A, B, and C, but, you know, book three or four, they'll be like, oh, this is my, you know, this is my jam. So. Yeah. Well, certainly any people who are complaining that, that they needed even more. steaminess. There is definitely more of that.

That was in the next book. I thought that it was pretty steamy, but I also know, like, I tried to push things as much as I could, you know, because there's publishers have a limit at a certain point where it's like, okay, okay, now we're getting into erotica, which I love. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a thing too is like I read a lot of like mail mail romances that are independently published. And when it's independently published, like they can write whatever they want and they can release it however they want. And then I think when people go from that to like something else, they're like, well, this isn't as like smutty or steamy or spicy as like other things. but I don't think they fully understand that like there's only so much you can do before.

Like you said, you are like put into that erotica category. Right. Yeah. Which I mean, hey, I wouldn't mind. But yeah, that's a whole different readership. And there's like the whole focus of the book. So maybe if some people were thinking that was like the main focus, it's like there is just so much else going on. I think it's kind of what it was.

But then the parts that are steamy are very steamy. Oh my God, yeah. Like turn your air conditioner on in February. Like whenever I'm reading, or whenever I'm writing, like, I know whenever I, if I'm turning myself on, then I'm like, okay, I think, I think I'm, I'm, I'm in a good place here. But you never know. Like, you never know what's going to turn somebody else on. So, you know, I just, I know that I would even push. certain things even further.

And I am like with the current book because it is all of it is about sexuality. You know, because it's about, you know, a woman who's struggling with her bisexuality, which is something I struggle with. So yeah, I think we always work out our shit and with our writing. And like I worked out some shit with with hurt for me. just, you know, dealing with certain traumas, like being able to have a character who's experienced traumas, even though my traumas were different from, from Rays. It was just like, okay, she had some traumas related, obviously, to her mom.

I had a lot of, like, I was struggling because my mom had died a few years back. And so I was, like, kind of dealing with some of those emotions of, like, you know, things that we didn't say and how that relationship was at the time of her death. And so with the current book, yeah, it's definitely kind of dealing with what it means to to be of my generation. I'm going to say, like, I'm in my, I'm like, I'm 44. So, and like growing up, I thought you were my age. Not one vet.

Thank you. You're so welcome. One bet. If anyone watched on YouTube, both our jaws were like, what? I know. I was like, wait a second. This is crazy. So after the episode, you're going to drop your skincare routine.

Yeah. That'll be episode two. I have the cheapest. Okay. You know, I'm an octa, right? Like, she was like always posting about the, like, various skincare things that she does. And it's like, I won't, I can't, I'm going to need to sell a lot more books before I could

get something like that. I am very simple. I am like the ordinary. They can, you know, get sponsored me if they would like. There's a lot of the ordinary products. Yeah, that's really good. Like Sarah Vee night cream. Yeah.

My friend Shelley swears by Sarah Vee. Yeah. I love it. It's, yeah. I've like sensitive. skin. So it's like, it's like one of the few things that doesn't go too crazy on my skin. But yeah, thank you. That makes me feel so good. But yeah, I was just going to say like, like, it's, I feel like every book that I write is kind of dealing with various aspects of my life or, you know,

just things that I'm trying to work out. And yeah, like I, like being in a red state and writing about, the things that I write about. Like, it is tricky. It is, it can be very tricky. But I'm going to keep on doing it. Yeah. God. And just, you know, I think it's going to be interesting how, how people locally will take the book.

I can't say that I'm going to be on any Oklahoma best seller. We'll see. Yeah. But yeah. just like I was saying, like the current book, it's definitely dealing with, you know, a character who's dealing with their, their bisexuality and still, like,

coming back to a rural Oklahoma town, even though I did not grow up in a rural Oklahoma town, I have been in that environment a lot because my older brother and sister grew up at a very small Oklahoma town. There are my half-siblings. And so, yeah, I've like very much been in that situation.

And Oklahoma City, I mean, it doesn't matter. Like there are pockets. There are like some really great supportive queer pockets. But it's still Oklahoma. So, you know, like, yeah. So it's like, okay. So yeah, it's going to be interesting whenever that book comes out and how that is received because it is very much focused

on kind of what that means to grow up as a queer person and not being able to be comfortable being out with your family or even with like your with like some of your friends and I know so many people who do come out at a later age like me and so it's like and then and then you're and then you get the questions of oh well you're married with a kid You know, you have kids and I'm like, that's just that, I think that happens a lot with women in particular. That's like that. I think there's just a lot. Interview with Anna Pacquin when he's like, so you're not a practicing bisexual just because she was married to a man.

And she's like, no, I'm just, I'm married to a man. Right. I'm like, that doesn't change like who I'm attracted to. And I'm very lucky that I have a supportive, you know, spouse who, you know, he totally understands the, like, the key gaspugs of me and, and, and the, you know, my attractions. We get to watch. I don't know if you've watched on Max a naked attraction. We have, we just finished all six seasons. I'm so sad because we just finished it all.

And it's just a fun show for us to watch because either way, I'm gold. Like, they're showing like six naked women or six naked men. Or even like a trans person thrown in. I'm like, yeah. So, yeah. I think it's just it's important that as a writer, you just continue to write what's from your heart because that's, I think that's, I think that's, That's what the readers are going to connect with.

And that's always going to be my goal is to stay true to myself. And then, you know, whatever publishers want to do, if, you know, if they don't want to publish it, I'll find another publisher. Yeah. They're always other ways. I don't think that would be the case with Amazon, though. They're amazing to work with. So, I mean, they bought the next books. They know what it's about.

Yeah. Right. They saw everything. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll definitely be there to read it. Yes. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I'm very excited for the world to read her for me.

And I'm very excited. And right now it's available for Kendall first reads. So, or is it Amazon first reads? Yeah. Amazon First Reads. Yeah. Amazon First Reads. So anyone who's like subscribed to that, you can read it as one of your free picks this month. So you can read it right now if you wanted to. And if you don't have prime, you can still pick it up for like a $1.99.

What? Yeah. Yeah. It's like you can't even get a cup of coffee for that amount. Yeah. And even from somebody who's a major coffee lover, I guarantee you will get a lot more out of hurt for me than you will, a cup of coffee. Yes. That's right. But yeah, yeah, I'll keep you up.

Yeah. I'm definitely very excited for the world to. read it. And I don't think that I am alone in this and saying that I cannot wait to read more of what's to come from you. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. That's so great talking with you all. Yeah. Glad you hung out with us tonight. And thank you so much for hanging out with us and, you know, being so open and the conversation and, you know, just being who you are because the world could definitely use more people like you. Thank you.

And they need more people like you, too. We love you. You have the best podcast. Like, everyone should listen. Oh, thank you so much. You go so deep. I love it. Yeah.