Bookwild - Heather Levy's This Violent Heart: Mystery, Romance, and Coming of Age

Episode Date: February 11, 2025

This week, I go to talk with Heather Levy about her new mystery thriller This Violent Heart! We dive into her inspiration for the book, how her personal experience informed her writing, and exploring kink through a new character.This Violent Heart SummaryDevon Mayes thought she was done with the small conservative town she once called home. She fled when she was eighteen after her best friend Summer took her own life, leaving Summer’s twin brother, Keaton, lost in his grief. But when tragedy strikes again, Devon has nowhere to turn but back to the place that first broke her heart.Being back in Arkana means struggling with the old guilt that shrouds her bisexuality and her feelings for Keaton. There’s so much she’s still hiding from him—and so much of their shared past that’s now resurfacing.It’s not long before Devon has reason to believe Summer’s tragic death wasn’t suicide after all. Summer had secrets, too…and she wasn’t the only one who didn’t want them exposed.As Devon and Keaton piece together the mystery of what happened that fateful summer, they must reckon with their own truths before they can move forward. But one person will do whatever it takes to stop them. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I am super excited to talk about this violent heart. I think I was DMing Heather, who's here today when I was reading it because I was so sick. And it was the only thing like taking me away from how sick I was. And I was like, well, at least I have this book that I can read at this time. So I am super excited to talk about your second one. Sorry, your third one. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm so excited to talk about it. It's a really personal. Yeah. And I'm glad that it helped you when you were on your deathbed. It did help me. I was like, at least I have Heather's writing to read right now. Did you, was there anything different about writing this one compared to your other books? Oh, my God.

I feel like every book is taking me on some kind of therapy journey. Yeah. You know, for those who have read Walking Therapeutic. through needles. It's, you know, it's such, it's such a,

a dark book, uh, and deals with some really, I mean, every one of my books deals with a heavy topics. But it was like such a, it was such a heavy book that going to hurt for me, hurt for me felt even though it also deals with,

you know, quite, quite a, quite a bit of heavy topics like, you know, sex trafficking. Um, it,

it, uh, it was like kind of a lighter book. Like there was fun in writing it. Um, leading up to writing it was not so much fun because I had a lot of pressure because there was the pandemic happened. I kind of went through like, probably like a lot of us just went through a pandemic crash. And, and then whenever I got into writing that book, like I had, you know, quite a bit of pressure, get a book out because walking through deals had been nominated for an Anthony award. And, and so, yeah,

like I knew I had to you know do something and and it just came out so quickly with this violent heart it was the first book that I've written that was under contract so so it was a different feeling because they're like oh you have this amount of time which was not a lot of time to write the book and I remember it was during the holidays like it was it feels weird that saying that it was like let's see we're in we're we're 2025 so this was like the end of 2003 um and where I was I was like okay it's the holidays we do a lot of stuff on my family a lot of traditions and here I was like trying to write for at least two hours a day like I just had to get out like I had to get out a thousand words a day or I was going to be behind. So I was like constantly behind. And I didn't know if I was going to make my deadline.

I was kind of really freaking out about that. And everyone kept telling me everybody, you know, who's with my publisher, they're like, just, you know, let them know and they can extend. But I'm a type A personality and I can't do that kind of shit. So I was like, I have to get it done. I was one of those kids who like, that assignment was turned in early. same so yeah so yeah i somehow got it turned in and it was the first time where i was not comfortable at all with what i was submitting to an editor like i i was like there's going to be some work on this

but then uh my editor charlotte harsher she's amazing um i got to work with her on her for me And she's, I don't know, I wish I could just work with her forever. I love her so much. And she came back and she was like, you know, it's pretty clean. It's pretty clean. I'm like, nice. And then I started reading my letter, my editor letter. And I'm like, it wasn't like, it wasn't horrible, but it was, it was one of those processes

that I'm like, I'm so glad that I went through, you know, back in the day. went through pitch wars with um lane and hallie um because you know it was it was kind of like okay you have you have to rework your entire book and let in like two months and i had so much work to do on walking through needles so in a way it it wasn't too crazy but at the same time because uh that their schedule is pretty fast uh with amazon they're like and And so, yeah, so I didn't have like a crazy amount of time to do these changes. But the process of writing this violent heart, like the actual like emotional process, that, you know, because it is dealing with a bisexual character and this was during a time when I was like coming out publicly too. not just with like people in my like close inner circle you know family and friends but like actually

coming out it it did like I had a different kind of pressure yeah than with the other books like hurt for me hurt for me it was fun because being part of the kink community I like my my one goal in writing that book was for it to be fun fast-paced and sexy and to be educational. And to have that educational level. With this violent heart, it was more like I just wanted to show that journey of, you know, identity and coming to a place where you can show yourself grace and, you know, forgiveness. and then, you know, self-acceptance. And those are all things that I am personally working through and still working through.

You know, you write a book and you're like, maybe I hope that I'm going to learn something throughout this process that's going to help me go forward. And I did. I certainly did. But it was also, okay, I still have work to do myself. So the next book's going to be fun. The next book is just like, I just,

Well, I'm still actually going to be working out some things, some generational trauma in this next one. We all are all the time. Right. Well, that is a really cool story of how you got to this book. I mean, I'm sure it was very stressful when you're like, how am I going to get this written? But I agree it has like more, not that hurt for me wasn't emotionally nuanced, but it has a lot. it's a lot more emotionally driven, I guess. It explores a lot more of the emotional part as well.

Yeah. And, you know, I'm, like, coming at it from, you know, being a bisexual person and then trying to, like, put it into the story, you know, some of those, those feelings that I had growing up and being a conservative place. I, you know, I'm in Oklahoma. I'm like in one of the red estates. And we constantly have just a bombardment of legislation, trying to restrict rights. And that's, that was like part of the seed for for the story. That and the fact that my daughter, who's now an adult, I can't, she's like in college and it's like crazy that she's in college. I'm like what?

I don't have a call of safety right now. But she came out a few years ago as bisexual and just seeing her be, you know, out and proud. And then being a parent, like trying to like support her. And at the same time, not like I didn't have that experience because both my parents have already passed. And so I didn't come out to them. I didn't have that opportunity to come out to them. them. So, like in the back of my mind, I'm like, I'm not even out to my, my daughter. And, and it was, like, I felt, you know, there was this kind of still that shame. And I did, like, I realized, like, how

how much it had been driven into just the fabric of my soul. And, and, and, and like, the more, that things were coming up in society and, you know, just the constant backlash against the queer community. I'm like, I felt like I was like hiding myself. And it's really easy to hide when you're married to a man, you know, right? Right. You're a person and you're married to a man. Like it's kind of like this weird space where you, you know, and then also having grown up not being able to, not feeling safe to be out.

Like, and then coming out later, it's, it's, you know, you're like a part of the community, but then you're, you know, like, it's just this weird, just this weird feeling. I just, I just had this conversation with a, with someone else the other day. And, and I was like, I just, you feel weird trying to occupy spaces, the queer, spaces um but then you're like but no i that that's that is who i am right and and it was so god it was like so freeing like being able to put it out there and then yeah i mean obviously it hurt for me there was like a little bit of bisexuality in there and there was you know clear representation and everything but um with my character so it was like me teasing um people who know

me. I mean, if people have, like, followed me and they know, like, how obsessed I am with, like, women and burlesque, things like that, like, they probably would have already guessed. People who have been out and out about with me, like, they should know. Right. So I feel like it wasn't a surprise to, like, most people, like. Right. Like, the people who are paying attention. Yeah, yeah. For some, like, family, yeah, probably, yeah. But it was just it was so good. It was so good to be out. And now it's kind of like I feel, yeah, I'm going to have, you know, I'm going to have queer stories.

I'm going to have queer characters. I mean, I always have, but like, like now, I don't know, it just feels, it feels different. Like, it feels different being able to come at it and show like intimate scenes. between, you know, two, two women and, and just fully express myself as, as an author. And someone who is by, so yay. Yeah. That's, that's so cool, though, that you can, because I know, I feel like, I think some people, like, maybe don't process their feelings through writing, and then some people do.

Like, I feel like I'm always, it's like, at least the general. sense of things that I've gone through will probably be the things that come to me to write is the way I so far that has been the case actually I guess what I'm thinking about what I wrote so but it also made me think when you were talking about like you're like but it's not like I like know everything or like like completely grasp it now or whatever there's um uh so podcasters I listen to but Pete and Val and Val always says um that life is about forgetting and remembering. And so you're going to forget stuff and then you're going to remember it and it's okay.

Like you don't have to be like, oh my gosh, I learned this already or oh my gosh, I have this down perfectly like you will forget some things and then you will remember them and it's okay. Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's like to kind of go into just that queer identity and like having not had that community. Like there's, there's so much, there's like language that,

yeah, that I just don't, that I don't know. No matter how much Rupal's drag race that I watch. Like, I don't know. And, and just,

you know, in certain experiences that I'm kind of like, they're, that I haven't had, necessarily like having a relationship, like having an actual full blown relationship with, with another woman that was romantic. You know, that's, I mean, there's obviously a big difference between like a sexual relationship and a romantic relationship.

Yeah. And so I, you know, my husband knows, he knows full well. I'm like, he's younger than me, so this is unlikely. But if he does die before me, he knows I'm like, I'm full lesbian, okay? I'm going, I'm just going to full lesbian. literally the only man that like I can I shouldn't say only man I can stand I have there are a lot of men in my life that I absolutely love I know what you mean though but as far as like a romantic sense I'm like he's the only man that I'm like yes that's like I get that on TikTok on my feed too every now and then that's like um like bisexual women are just women who love all women and like 10 really specific men Yes. Yes.

That. Yes. Before we came on, like, you know, me talking about my, my movie boyfriend, Kyle Garner. Yes. Like, like,

I don't know. I wouldn't call it an unhealthy. I don't think anything's unhealthy as long as you're not, like, stalking someone. Right. Totally. But I mean,

but I mean, do I look at his Instagram? Like, you know, have I seen every single video that he's posted? of course I have. I'm like, holy dad. He's such a good actor. Yes. But I do at the same time, like I'm doing the same thing for like way more female, you know, for way more actresses than I do male actress. So it kind of plays out

the same way in my real life. Right. Doing my yeah. It's consistent. It's consistent. It's consistent. Very few men that I'm like, okay. They're probably one of the good ones. Right, right. One of the things I also thought was really cool about this book is that Devin is a character loosely in Hurt for Me. And when I started reading it, there was a moment where I was like, wait a second, I think this checks out. And so then I like, because I read on my Kindle, I like pulled up Hurt for me and like searched the names. And I was like, okay, I was right.

So did you know in Hurt for me that you were going to. expand on Devin or like how did you decide that part? Yeah. Like I, okay, so the story for, you know, this violent heart was already kind of forming after, well, even actually before her for me, like the initial thing. I was like, okay, I kind of tucked it away and just had other things come up that were more, you know, kind of took my attention more. And that's how I work. So if something like even right now the book that I'm working on I was working on a book that that deals with the burlesque world and I've been wanting to do that for like ever and and just I don't know like it just wasn't it just wasn't working and and then I had this idea just come up in the middle of the night

and sometimes those things happen you just and you have to go for it and with this violent heart it was just kind of, doop. And then as I was, you know, getting through with hurt for me, I'm like, I don't really want to do something with Devin. I feel like she could be a really interesting character, what she, you know, things that she went through and hurt for me and thing, you know, and carry forward that. And then I was just like, okay, what am I going to have her do? like I don't really want her. I don't necessarily want to have another sex worker, you know, somebody who's and to dominate her's work.

I want her to, you know, have her own kind of identity, like what's important for her. And it made sense for her character. It always made sense for her, for her character for me to have her be a therapist. You know, going through training. She's kind of wrapping up, getting her practice. hours. I don't know how things work in other states, but like here in Oklahoma, like, you have to do, like, a lot, a lot of practicum hours. And you work under a super supervisory psychologist to do that work. And so I wanted her to be at that stage in her life where she does have things that are at risk. you know um and so uh you know i like i feel like with her character um and the things that

happen and her her teens with her best friend summer and summer's death uh i you know i felt like that would be her career journey is trying to figure out how to help people to prevent someone from, you know, getting to the point of committing suicide. Because that's what everybody believes happened with, with, with, with, with, with, with, and, and she has a lot of guilt surrounding that. So, um, I think that when she, you know, at the beginning of the book, um, she probably thought that she had worked through a lot of things with, with, with that trauma of experiencing that loss in her teens.

and then, you know, this tragic thing happens with her client, with one of her clients, and she just immediately spirals. And so it's very clear to not only her, but to her supervisor, that you got some shit. You got to get through that again. Yeah. So, so I, you know, I just, I knew that that was going to be like kind of a good catalyst to get her back home, put her back in this environment where she, you know, is not comfortable at all. Like she's never, she's never felt safe to be out in her, you know, her hometown, this

very small, conservative rural hometown. And in particular with her parents, too, because they're, like, even within that town, like they're like, like another level of religious and strictness. So, yeah, it kind of set up a lot of layers that I could explore with her character, not just in, like, you know, her stumbling upon some information that, you know, lets her, like, kind of informs her belief that maybe Summers death wasn't by suicide, but it lets her, you know, explore that deep. seated shame that she has always felt with being bisexual. Like even even her her safe little bubble in the city because you know she lives in the city now. Right. She she's still very kind of, you know, not not necessarily fully out. So there's there's that part of her that she's always keeping she's keeping hidden.

So yeah. And then of course like her reconnecting with summer's and brother katen that's like a whole other thing of you know like hiding certain parts of herself and certain things that have happened so yeah there's just a lot there's there's there's a lot of fun things to explore a lot of um emotional aspects to explore and i'm and i'm always for like diving into characters yes yeah yeah there were a couple things you mentioned that i loved and wanted to bring up too so there's this unique tension where devon uh back when they were kids and summer and keene were both alive all of a sudden i was scared that was a spoiler i'm like no this is in the snap yeah you know the summer's dead right so it's dead um that's her kind of

devon's bisexual awakening is realizing that she's attracted to like male and female twin siblings and I thought that was such a unique attention to create so how did you kind of think of that and approach that yeah so I knew I knew her character I always knew that her character was was going to you know how like I wasn't sure at first if it was going to be like a friend group or something and I'm like I didn't feel like I felt like the stakes need to be higher. And I've always been really obsessed with twins. Yeah.

Twin relationships. And I, and I, you know, I think it's really interesting, like fraternal twins, too. Because they, they're, you know, they look different. They're obviously different, different genders. And so it kind of, it creates this fun dynamic. And I was like, what better than twin siblings for her to be attracted to and create some, you know, really internal and external issues for her. But, you know, as you know, like, a lot of it's just her internal battle of, like, you know, wanting to do the right thing by her hearts and for people that she loves and, you know, she cares about. And then, you know, that, that, that shame that's just shrouding everything that she does.

That really, you know, is the driving force for her making just horrible decisions, you know. You're not wrong. But, you know, also, also creating some situations where she does get to, you know, explore those signs of her. and and try to figure herself out. But yeah, she, yeah, she definitely gets herself into some really heated situations. Whether other people know it or not, but yeah. Right, right. The other thing you mentioned that I thought was cool is like you're still in this book

and through Devin, it's still in the Kink community. But it did very. It did very much feel like separate experiences. Like you were mentioning wanting to not just have another ray, like just write the same character. So I thought it was cool that their experiences with it felt very different because that's like sometimes like some of how we get into stereotyping is just assuming that a whole community like acts the same way. So I liked how distinct they were. how did you or like what kind of like um no this is what i was thinking of it reminded me that when we talked to you about hurt for me you said that like uh the dominatrix role was kind of like

a stretch for you so you're like talking to people who like were in that position to kind of research that and understand that so how did you approach making devons a unique experience too Yeah, so with Devin, I would, I would kind of like, and she would consider herself to be a switch. So she can kind of play both of those sides and she enjoys certain aspects of those sides. And I mean, she certainly enjoyed it whenever she was making money from it, probably more than anything. But, you know, that doesn't turn out too well for her. So, but what like, you know, she, she, she, she, she, more on that, I would say more on that sensual domination side.

She enjoys pain, but within that, that more of like, sort of loving partnership more than anything. And she, you know, she's had those experiences with, with partners, with women partners. So with, you know, getting into. the relationship that she goes into in the book, like she's coming into it with so, with trauma, with a lot of trauma that she had experienced, not just the trauma that she experienced in her teens with the loss of her friend, but sexual trauma. And I'm, I've always been really interested and that, that intersection of experiencing sexual trauma and being.

being able to reclaim it through kind of unusual means and kink for you know for a good good number of people have been able to reclaim their sexuality and the control aspect they have with their sexuality through kink and so i wanted to explore that uh yeah but yeah it's not like there's like kink throughout it's kind of more discussions and then And then some hot scenes. So. Yes. Or at least I hope people enjoy them.

They are. Here's the extended scene. That was one of those funny things, too, as I was writing it and going through the editing process. I really, like, I always try to push as much as I can with scenes. And there were certain places when it came to the sex in the book that were. my editor was like, you know what? I want you to add more here. I want you to add more.

And I'm like, okay, this is like a last chapter. I'm like, all right. So I feel like with with this book, it is like really like the longest kind of extended sex scenes. But it's also I think really it shows that kind of this barrier being. broken. Yes. Like psychologically for her, but then, you know, physically as well with having that that kink aspect.

And yeah, it was like I, I hope that it came across just like this kind of a beautiful moment for her to just kind of release herself from like some of the, you know, shame that she's felt and and then and then some of that that trauma that fear of being intimate again and yeah connected with someone on that level because you do have to be so connected emotionally when you're doing kink like there's so right not just your body and what you're receiving or giving but that that trust and that bond building so yeah I think it was a really important bonding moment for the characters and and And for her, just that empowerment.

So. Totally. The other thing you mentioned a little earlier, and we've kind of been talking through it, is like how prevalent her shame is. And some of it really comes from Arcana, which is like the setting is a character itself almost in this situation. And it's just like suffocating and like claustrophobic kind of. the scenes were reading back then. So how did you approach creating this town that felt so heavy?

So I, you know, I've, like, I've always been a city girl, but my older siblings both grew up in a really small, like, really small Oklahoma town. And I used to visit there and spend, you know, some time there during the summers. and I would always feel this like sense of like smallness like everywhere just the way that people talk the way like there would be no people of color um yeah it was just so different and not always in a good way but there were like you know there but there were also good aspects too like people very friendly um although i would say in ok in oklahoma regardless of all all the horrible things that our legislators do and know a lot of people, but people are generally friendly.

That's good. But it's like kind of like a different level in small towns. You get a lot of hans and how you doing and all of that. But at the same time, people know, you know, like even when you're coming in, if you're an outsider, like, you know, people look at you. It's not like a lot of these small towns get a lot of people coming, a lot of visitors coming through. You either live there or you don't.

And so you kind of feel that. You feel that, oh, you know, I am an outsider. And I really wanted to, you know, show that in that closeness, with the characters just always knowing everything that's going on with people and those expectations that are that are just so built into that community that the deviation but then at the same time showing that duplicity too because a lot of those communities they you know there's the okay you got to go to church and make sure that you're seen make sure that you're seen that doesn't necessarily mean that's what you're doing behind doors

And so you see these kids in the community and they're doing, you know, they're, they're gathering. They're like doing drugs and drinking and doing all these things because there's really, like, not a goddamn thing to do in these little towns. So, and that's how it is. Like, it's so boring. It was so boring. Every time I would go to, like, these small towns. There's, like, the one theater with, like, literally folding chairs.

Oh, yeah. I didn't have a theater and I was literally a one stoplight town. So, yeah. I think it was amazing. whenever they did get that theater. It was like... Yeah. And you would have like the little like the little cheap popcorn machine.

Yes. You can just buy. So, yeah, like I... And so Arcana, it's funny. A lot of people think that Arcana is like a real town. I'm like, it sounds like it could be a real town. I thought it might be. And I looked it up.

It actually shows up in this horror anthology that I was a part of like several years ago. I had written. this kind of feminist piece and a horror anthology. And so that like the town kind of pulls up. But I was like, I always loved that the arcana. So like I had to, I had to reuse it. Yeah. But yeah, like just that, that suffocation of, you know,

these are the boundaries that you have. And you can't really go beyond that, this like little safe bubble that you have and like even going you know like she's in track and so like going to the city is like we're going to the city and going to the bronze in the city like it's such a big deal and it and it is for you know people living in small towns just being able to get outside of that bubble but at the same time it's kind of scary too and I want to show that like her fear of like leaving that space wanting so desperately to leave that space because she knows that she's never going to be able to explore, you know, all sides of herself unless she leaves. And then here she is. She leaves

and she still is carrying that with her. So it's kind of, you know, she doesn't really, she hasn't escaped it. Right. She's never processed it. And not to say that to process things, you have to come out fully. I don't believe that. I have a lot of friends. I have a lot of friends who are not out. And they, you know, they're still able to have a good life. Just for me personally, it was one of those.

Like I felt like there was a level that I needed to be out. And I kind of looked at that with Devin's character, that that was one thing that she needed to do. she needed to be able to come out to her parents and say, this is who I am. And but also knowing that that could mean the end of having that relationship with her family. And that's the case for so many people. And I honestly, for myself, I really don't, I don't know. I don't know what it would have been for my parents. I know when I actually came out as being in the key community with my mom,

before she did. And I remember the first thing that she said was, is Kyle beating you up? Is he infusing you? Oh my gosh. And and so I had to just really explain that to her. And I, the only reason why I said anything to her is because there, there was like an article that was coming out. And like locally. So I, you know, I knew that it was going to be floating around and I and I had already had like people DMing me like you know what you know and asking question so I was like kind of went over that with her and during that conversation I remember like I was so close to just telling her and and I did it and so there's like that part that I kind of was able to resolve through Devon's character and because I

I didn't have that moment myself. And, you know, I don't want to give away, like, how things are in the book or how that reaction goes. But, but, yeah, like, she needed that. Regardless of what reaction she was going to get, it was something that she needed. And, you know, in the same way that she needed that release from a, you know, on a sexual connecting side of things. so yes she has she has several moments where she she she gets to to have have have that and then you know see what that what the reaction is going to be what the response is going to be and right yeah yeah there kind of yeah yeah she gets her opportunities to practice

not caring like the reactions aren't going to matter just like doing it for herself like it eventually it's not going to matter anymore what other people are thinking yeah she's just got to live for herself and i mean she sees a really good example of like a person who is out but at the same time that that's also part of her fear of coming out with um yeah jacky's character um jacky who is a like one of the few people of color in the community she's um indigenous and uh and she and she's she is proud and out as a lesbian. And so she's almost like this foil for Devin throughout, not only because like they both like have like, you know,

feelings for the same person. And but, but, you know, she sees, she sees how the community has treated Jackie. And I mean, she's been like, you know, ground to the ground so many times because of her, not just because of the color of her skin, but because of being queer. And so there's there's that, you know, part part of that, that fear of coming out is just seeing those examples of what happens when you are here out. So, so, yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a, I think a fun little, fun moment. I won't give away, but it like does involve Jackie. So I was like, yeah.

To read and find out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you have to read find out. But I love Jackie's character. I love, and I love that Devin can see that and her character, this person who was like, you know, fuck it. Like, yeah. Like what else?

what else what else can they take from me like exactly i they're going to try anyway so i might as well i might as well be myself yes and and i kind of felt i kind of felt that that way too because like yeah there's always the fear of okay am i going to i mean i always feel that way anyway with readership especially with the environment that we're in the political environment and i'm pretty vocal and yeah I mean you lose you lose readers and I'm you know it's just kind of one of those things and yeah you know so shouldn't be that way it shouldn't be that way and I mean if people can't get into some female female scenes and I don't know what's wrong with you because they're beautiful you're missing out I mean I read I read myself I read like so much

much like so much queer romance and a lot of melmell romance. I just love it. Yeah. I get up. So I'm like, hey, expand your horizons. You just don't even know. You should. You really, yeah, for real though. Another interesting thing about this is Salmer is like very much an important character. But mostly we experience her through everyone else. and just her journal entries. So it's kind of a unique way that she's presented. So what was it like creating her character? Because it has a really important arc,

but like also she's, it's kind of through the perspectives of other people. Yeah, yeah. And I really battled over whether or not I was just going to have like a straight POV with her. Yeah. And her character, her voice, because I, you know,

I typically write. in third person. And her voice was just so loud whenever I was writing that I was like, okay, I don't, I don't know if I can make it work with just like her having a straight POV because there's obviously for the for the plot situations. I like I can't just, you know, have people seeing everything that's happening with her on the page. Right.

But so so her journal and. that became really important and just being able to have her voice be there and just knowing what's going on with her internally as compared to what Keaton and Devin are seeing. And, you know, that creates a lot right there, like, creates a lot of tension because, you know, Devon has no idea what's going on in the background. She's taking everything at face value a lot because she's still dealing with her own stuff. She's kind of in her own head so much that she's not necessarily, she doesn't have that capacity too because she's a teenager. You know, teenagers are really, they're worried about themselves most of the time, right? Right. So she's not like, she's kind of like, well, she's my friendship.

is, you know, hitting this bottom. And I don't know why. And she won't talk to me. And, but not really digging beyond that surface of thinking. And then with Keaton, you know, it's that twin connection and some of the experiences that they've had as teenagers, you kind of, you learn, you know, more their family dynamic through a lot of summers entries. and kind of like that breakdown of sort of the relationship between summer and Keaton during

during those that that particular summer that I'm focused on and the story. So yeah. Yeah, I like I went through so many different ways to tell the story, including also having Keaton in there too. Like I was like, maybe I have like Keaton's. Pio me and I just I was like how do I simplify this as much as possible because like as a writer you're always trying to think I don't I don't want to have a gimmick and honestly sometimes like whenever I read a lot of things and there's like a journal I'm like sometimes it really works

sometimes it works and then sometimes it's like okay sometimes you just end up hearing everything twice right yeah yeah and I'm like oh and I kind of starting to feel the same way with like there's you know tons of books with the like with podcast. Oh I figured that yes and hear you read and yeah it's true like you can't just rely on that. Yeah and like and some of them I've like absolutely loved but like I've come across so where I was like I don't know if this is like working for me. Yeah. But some are like done so amazingly well and but yeah so I was like okay how do I do this and do it in a way that I'm doing justice for summer for her character and and and still keep that the story tight because I was always like

I'm always worried about pacing so yes and it's funny like so many like so many people have told me they're like I feel like it was you know pretty fast pace and as I was right it did not feel that way at all. Oh, that's interesting. So, so I, that's, every time I would, I would describe it, I'm like, it's a slow burn. And then, and then like people are telling me it's, I feel like it was really fast-paced. I'm like, okay, maybe I need to stop saying slow burn. I know.

You mentioned slow burn when we interviewed the first time, and I was like, what is she talking about? Okay, I just need to stop. I get it though. I've had the same feeling because like with what I've been what I've been writing like I'll get done and I'll be like oh that really like I feel like that informed the character. It moved the plot forward. But and then because like I'm so into fast pace, I'm like but is it fast pace enough? Like do I need this? Like it's just so easy to do. Somebody somebody had asked me. I was like I don't know. I was like doing like a Q&A thing. Like what do like what is like for? for like writing and they're like, from a craft standpoint, they're like, well, how do you create a,

you know, a fast-paced book? I'm like, if you want to know that the, the quickest way to do it, the easiest way to do it is just have shorter chapters. That's really it. That's really it.

Like if you, if you're getting to the point and obviously in the book, there are so, you know, there are a few places where, you know, it's important that you had to have that kind of like the extended scene. Yeah.

But yeah, like whenever I get, whenever I'm getting to like over a thousand words in a chapter, I started getting like nervous. I'm like, oh, am I saying everything that I need to? And then I have to like go back there and like reevaluate and see how where I can tighten things up. Yeah. But, but yeah, I don't know. I read a lot of books that are.

historical gothic fiction. And so you get these like long chapters for beautiful language. Yeah. And I'm like, I want to be able to write that way, but I don't. So. Yeah. And that is, and if I tried to do that in like

a book like this, it's like not going to work at all. Right. Right. So that's, that's really it. You did write it. Thank you. Yeah. You mentioned maybe having Keaton's POV as well. And something kind of interesting between Devin and Keaton, I just said his name.

I don't know why it was leaving my brain. They both went through like a similar trauma in losing summer. Obviously he's her brother and she's the friend. But it actually kind of through Devin's actions ends up just separating them further apart from each other and I think grief is probably always complicated and like it may not always make sense how you handle it so how did you kind of want to approach that between Keaton and Devin yeah so you know after summer's death and for certain reasons and Devin, she's just like really consumed with guilt.

She truly believes that that she had, you know, some kind of hand in, and in Summers' death. And I think that's, that's reflective in a lot of, the way that a lot of people feel whenever they experience a suicide. I don't, you know, I don't know if you have, but like when, when a friend or family member commit suicide, it's like, that's the first thing. you know what could i have done i i should have i should have seen a sign for it i you know you go through that whole gamut and that is the headspace that devon is in as a teen and carried for it all the way into her adulthood as you know this person trying to to become a therapist and so she's never let she's never really let that go and keaton um You know, he's experiencing it from all those different levels of not only having his only sibling die, but having that twin connection.

And, and, you know, the first person besides his family that he, you know, wants to turn to is like, you know, his best friend, Devon. and she is she just has completely shut herself off from him because of that guilt that she's feeling and so he's got a lot of confusion like and then when they reconnect as adults like you know he really the first thing he does is like he confronts her about that like hey you know that shit wasn't cool like he just like let you know just didn't even say anything and So, but he has no idea of the level of that, that the guilt that, that she's feeling and what, like, what that means for their relationship, uh, too. So, yeah. Um, so that's, that's always the tension between them because he's like, I know that you're not, you're, like,

there are things that you're not talking about. And, um, I think that happens a lot with people. when you're, you're, you're, you have that guilt. Like, you don't, you don't want to give yourself away. And yeah, you kind of are trying to protect that part of yourself because, uh, you, you know, on some level, you know, what's going to happen. Like, people are going to be disappointed. People are going to be hurt. Um, you know, whatever the case may be. So, so, so it's really difficult for her to get back into that space where she can have like, you know, a friendship with them and having, you know, these other complicated feelings that she has, right, that she can't express or she, you know, fears expressing.

Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. Fun dynamics. Yay. Yeah. But it is fast-paced and it's character-driven.

So those are the two that I obsess over. So I loved it. Thank you. You're welcome. Yeah. I know you said you read a lot. Have you read anything recently that you loved? Yeah.

Any genre. Yeah. I've actually, I've been doing a lot of blurbs for people. And then just reading friends' work, too. So I will say I've got a plug. I've got to plug my friend Sean S.A. Cosby because I had read

his next book that's coming out in the summer King of Ashes. It is epic. It's dealing with a lot of sibling stuff in generational trauma. And I know it's been optioned and I keep telling him like when is it

When is it happening because I need to see this like right now on the screen. Like it is out of any of his books, I can see this so clearly on the screen. Wow. But yeah, it's, oh, God, just be prepared. Be prepared. It is going to be a kick in the gut and you're ripped out. And then my friend Pollitt Kennedy, she, she, She writes just gorgeous, luscious, historical Gothic fiction, a lot of, you know, queer representation.

And so her next book, the artist of Blackberry Grange, takes place in one of my favorite places, Eureka Springs. That is like my happy place. It is like gay mecca there if you haven't met. And so I know it's in Arkansas, but still, like, it really is like game like. Right. And so it takes place in the 1920s. So, like, one of my favorite time periods, too. Yeah.

And it's about this character who return, like, she returns to, like, her home to take care of her great aunt. I think it's her great aunt who has dementia. and and there's like a lot of kind of paranormal things going on because like the character she she keeps she's like falling into the paintings of her great aunt and and they take her to the past and so she's seeing all these things it's very much that's cool like Sean spoke like very much about generational trauma and how that's like carried forward and and you know trying to break that cycle and it's just it's just beautiful how it's how it's written it also has some some characters that show up that are her um her prior book the witch of tin mountain and i absolutely love that book lots of lots of uh lesbian action of that one too

um oh god just like i don't know like so so many um i mean those both sound amazing megan collins oh cross my heart my heart yeah I love it. I loved it so much. God, I don't know. Just like so many. I get thinking of you with the pink hair in that one. I know. I was like, was this me? Is she writing really? It's like that euphoria one. It's like, is this play about us? That's awesome. That's awesome. There's just so many great books coming out. I'm so excited. Like this, like this. great book that's coming out. I love this cover so much. It is so pretty. Where should people

follow you to stay up to date on this book and whatever's coming next? You can follow me on my website, heatherlevi writer.com, and I'm on Instagram, Heather L. Levy and Blue Sky at Heather Levy. So those are where I'm at. Not really out on, not really out on X. I still have to get on there. I need it. I need to end it. I don't know why.

I don't know why I'm like holding out. I guess it's because of like I just want to like news, I guess. Like it's still like. Right. So I'm waiting for blue sky to get to the point where they can really be like a good news source. So. Yeah. I know you mean.

I know you mean. Yeah. Well, I will link the ones that you are on for everyone. And other words. Thanks so much for coming on again.