Bookwild - How John Marrs Writes Out of Order (And Still Nails the Ending)

Episode Date: April 3, 2026

In this episode, Gare and I chat with our long time favorite John Marrs!   John shares his journey from journalist to author, his out of order writing process, why he doesn't always think his books are that dark (LOL), and a particularly terrifying story with a frog.  Yes, I said frog. Listen to our whole conversation to hear about: What it was like getting his first book idea, writing it, and self publishing it His transition to traditional publishing His hybrid plotter-pantser process  The snacks he has nearby for writing The time he got arrested in America A daunting encounter with a frog in his backyard Check out all of John's books and find where to follow him through his website here Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week, Gare and I got to talk with the John Mars, which if you have listened to us for a while, you can imagine how exciting this is that we got to talk to him. We are huge fans, as you probably know. And we definitely talked to him about all kinds of stuff, but his most recent book is also what we discussed called Dead in the Water. This is what it's about. When Damon survives a near drowning, his life flashes before his eyes. Every memory is crystal clear except one, a dead boy, a phyllis. face he can't place, a moment he doesn't remember living. At first he tells himself it's a trick of the

mind, but everything else he saw was real, so why not this? With his waking life stocked by this disturbing scene, confusion quickly turns to obsession. Desperate for answers, Damon digs into his fractured past and becomes convinced that the only way to remember is to die again, and again, and again. When he meets a perfect stranger who's all too willing to help, the stage is set for his dice with death. But if this is what it takes to uncover the truth, maybe some memories are better left buried. This one, like, you will think you know where it's headed, and then you're like, oh, nope, I was wrong. Something totally different, which is one of my favorite kind of structures or whatever to read a book, like just constantly guessing it what is happening. I really, really

enjoyed this one. Gare really, really enjoyed this one. We've loved lots of John Mars's books from the and yeah, I can't wait for you to hear our conversation with him. I am super excited because I am with Gare and we are with John Mars, who you have been hearing us talk about for what, like four years now probably? Yeah. Your subscribers on your behalf. Yeah. So thank you so much for joining us.

We are like, we're a little bit starstruck, to be honest. Really? Oh, yes. Yeah, I think I would be with a lot of other people, but not with me. No. Yeah. I mean, you're one for us, but I get it. Okay.

Who have you been the most starstruck by? Ruth was going to be a little bit nervous because, like, I had never talked to her at all either, and her publicist just connected me, and I was like, oh, my gosh, hello. And I'd read so many of her books. I don't know about you again. I mean, I think... This tops it for me. I was going to say.

This tops it for me. Yeah. Bless you. Prepare for massive disappointment. This tops. Oh, I feel like a lot of the interviews that we've done together, I had, um, I'd known the, like, I've had, like, conversations with the authors, like, so much. Okay.

And so, like, like, Ashley Winstead, you know, she kind of mentioned how, like, she asked me for, advice on like what covers she should choose for some of her books or like we'll run like an idea by me sometimes so like this is like when I first started reading again and like started my bookstagram account the Good Samaritan was one of the first books that I read yeah oh wow you still tough yeah yeah I started off with that one and so like I've been just like obsessed ever since and especially the last year and a half um I've been going through your backlist well my accountant thanks you by by uh ty little p.m. thanks you because that's what I have to take after I finish a John Mars book otherwise I will sleep so you'll actually like knock

myself out yeah yeah oh I know some of them are like I don't know it's weird because when people talk about how dark they are sometimes sometimes I can see maybe a bit of darkness in them but most of the time. I'm like, really? Was it that dark? It was. I love that. Yeah. I don't know. So I, yeah, when you're writing them, you don't think, I just try and think, let's find a way to try and entertain the reader as much as possible and take them into different places and try and wrong foot them and throw them in there, throw red herrings at them. And it's always fun. So when people say, oh, that's a really dark book, I'm like, oh,

okay. They don't complain about it, but yeah. Yeah, you probably have some distance from it when you're writing it, like you're saying, like you're like thinking about the plot or the twist and turn so much. Yeah. I think people expect to me when they talk to me or meet me in real life to be quite serious and quite moody. No, I can't be asked with all that. I know.

That's what I always say. We love your Instagram. Yeah, yeah. I always say like, well, with your books, I do think they are darker than a lot of the other books out there. But I love a dark thriller. It's just that your books always keep my mind going as to like, you know, like you have your jacket that says briefly what the book's about.

And then when you start reading it, there's so much more that's going on that you don't, like, you're not prepared for. So I'm always like trying to guess who did what, what's coming next. And that's what keeps me up at night with your books. Okay. Like, not necessarily. The dark stuff doesn't really frighten me. You know, like, I fall asleep to, like, murder podcasts.

Yeah. But I always do say to, like, anybody that I talk to about the bookish community, that thriller authors will write the most, like, fucked up crazy, dark books, but be the nicest and funniest people you will ever meet in your life. Okay. Yeah. That's good to know. That's good to know. Yeah.

That's been our experience. My kind of people. My kind of people. Yeah. Well, I'm always interested in, like, your origin story or your journey to writing. So was it, did you always know you wanted to write? Or did you just, like, have an idea and it became, well, maybe not your first book, but you started writing? No, it was literally, literally that.

I worked as a journalist in London for God, many years. interviewing celebrities for a living from movies and music and TV and stuff like that then I saw something I've never, I like to read so a lot of long train journeys into working back

and I just had this idea I read something in a magazine that gave me this idea for a story and I thought let's just have to go out writing this let's just see what happens and so I had to go at writing it and about a year 18 months later

and finished and I showed it to a few people and they were like oh my God this is actually not bad So I've said this story before, but I sent it off to about 80 different agents and publishers thinking, you know what, I'm a journalist, I've got a bit of experience, I know what I'm doing, come on, bring it on, bring it on. Nobody was interested. No one could give a flying F.

They really couldn't. So I thought I'd self-publish, and it did pretty well, self-published, and I wrote two more, didn't bother sending them out to any agents. And then two separate publishers got in touch about two different books and wanted to go mainstream with them and I'm like hell yes absolutely and I'm yeah and I didn't even dawn on me then that when they have one book for me they might expect more um than it's like oh shit I've got you do a bit more of this and yeah gradually the side hustle became a full-time job I didn't give up the journalist and job until about five or six books in so I was convinced it wasn't going to last

and by then I but then I'd sold about like about a million and a half books or something I was still like no something I'll ask I'm going to have like one bad idea I'm going to say something really stupid and get myself cancelled I'm not giving up this and then finally I had to it just became too much so I had to buy journalism and and hello world of books yeah so that's like fascinating that you were kind of able to stay that like maybe humble or like you were still trying to like not just be like oh okay this is all I need but yeah meanwhile you must have read books by an author who maybe have one great book out there and everything after that has not been so good. Well, you never see, you never hear from and I'll see them again.

And I know people like that. I've met people like that. I've read books by people like that. And I'm just thinking I am not going to go down that route. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I appreciate also how lucky I am to have been spotted by two different editors.

Really lucky. And I think you're going to publish and you've got to, you've got to have a decent cover of your book. You've got a decent story. you're going to have a decent synopsis and that will get people's attention. But yeah, I was just in the right place at the right time. But also I feel, one last day, I just feel really guilty sometimes when you when you hear authors and they've been, yeah, I've been writing since I was two years old and my first book was one, and I've written 40 novels and finally my 41 got published and I'm like,

yeah, I wrote one and it kind of took off, sorry. I feel really crap about that sometimes I mean it's just what happens though like you're saying the luck part like it's like timing and all of that absolutely I also feel like though like a lot of success stories that you hear are people that didn't pressure themselves

you know like like Freedom McFadden she was like I just want to write books like to kind of relax a little after being a neurosurgeon And like now she's like kind of taken off. Yeah. And so I love that.

I've got to know her a little bit as a person and she's just supportive of other authors. She's just genuinely lovely. I really like her. Yeah. Yeah. I've had like a few interactions with her and she's always been like extremely kind. Yeah. Especially for somebody who's like churning out like three books a year or four.

Yeah. My God. I wish I had that discipline but I'm just too lazy when it comes down to I wish I could be just like sitting here typing away and concentrating, but no, no. Give me that 20 minutes and I'm looking on my phone or I'm just doing this, that or the other. But unloaded dishwasher, the grass needs to be cut. I've got to pick my son up from school. Do you like how my son up from school is like the last in that order of things that I've got to do?

You're exhausted everything. He'll leave it when I get there. Yeah, he'll do it. He'll figure it out. how do you how does it like go from idea to book for you so like basically i'm also asking are you a plotter or a panzer or has it been different now used to be a pouncer and just see where the journey took me then i realized how much how many more edits of a book i'd have to do when i did it that way so i've learned to be more of a plotter so i'm in the middle of a three book deal with my

thomas and mercer publisher at the moment so when i finished a book and then i'm I will, if I come up with an idea, I will pitch it to them. I'll do probably about 2,000 words synopsis of what I'm going to do. Thankfully, every time so far, they've been like, yeah, go for it. Let's see what happens. And I just started. I write every single chapter, like two lines per chapter of what I'm going to do. And then I can just stick with that.

And then often the journey takes me completely different directions, but I can't write a book unless I have an ending in mind. And I know a few authors who were just quite happy to get started without having an ending and that just blows my mind i can't do it that way and i also don't write methodically i can't start with chapter one chapter two chapter three i will start or if i if i've know where all my chapters are going to be it just depends on what mood i'm in that day so if i'm in a particularly devious mood i'll do some plot twist work on a particular chapter then i'll do something else somewhere else and then every they're all on like separate a4 documents and then at the end i'll just cut and

paste everything together and hopefully it will make sense wow that is that is so wild. I've never heard. We've talked to like a lot of people about their writing experience and like their process and I've never I've never heard of anybody who goes to like all over the that. But you know it kind of makes sense. If I had to sit there and think right I've got 100,000 words to write now. Let's start with chapter one. I would just procrastinate and find other things to do. I'd never get around to it. This way if I didn't write the end of a book first, and then gone back to the beginning or the middle. It just absolutely depends on what mood I'm in that day.

And that's what works for me. It doesn't always work very well because I say each book's probably about 90 to 100,000 words. And there's one book I wrote. And I was really pleased with how this first draft had gone. I pieced it all together. And it was 57,000 words. I'm like, what the hell? How have I so badly underwritten?

So if you read any of my books, I've got lots of long descriptions about sunsets and beaches and countryside, you'll know which one it is. Five chapters about a tree. You'll know it's padded out a bit, haven't they? Oh my gosh. Well, off the top of my head, I can't guess what it is.

I'm trying to think. Gares trying. I'm trying. Radio and he's not watching Gears trying. Well, there's one book in particular that really caught me off guard. and now that I know your process it makes a lot of sense because I always tell people like when I recommend your books or when I talk to them about like why they should pick them up and like you read books where characters play like a cat and a mouse game with each other and if you read a John Mars book you are the mouse and he's the cat. We'll play the cat and mouse game with you as a reader because something sinister or like crazy happens. And then it kind of like settles down for a few chapters and you were like allowed to like process it and like what's going on.

And then you're walloped again with something crazy. So the fact that like you are like, well, sometimes I'm devious and I write these chapters. And then other times there's like the more like calm ones. Now it makes more sense to me. As like somebody who's read a lot of your books that that is exactly your writing process because that's how it feels when you're reading it. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to put you on the spot. What out of my books is your most disliked one?

I had an author asked me this once too. By the way, I'm absolutely cool because there are a couple of my books. I'm not as keen on as maybe others. So I think my problem is I haven't finished all of your traditional thrillers yet. So I've read seven of them. Wow. And it's not that. So I want to read all of your traditional thrillers and then I want to read the speculative thrillers. So that's my plan. Now I have the vacation and stranger in her house left for traditional thrillers and I want to reread the Good Samaritan because I have the memory of a walnut. So I like, I'm like, I knew I loved it and I know that it was like so much more than what I thought.

it was going to be, but I don't remember jack shit about it. So I think that so far on my list, I think, I think her last move. Yeah. Is my, is on the lowest of my ranking, but it's still a four. So all of your books so far have been a four up for me. Her last move is the one that I read and I really liked it. It was really dark. It was a serial killer.

But now that I've read like, what lies between us when you disappeared like I'm like I don't remember a lot about it I just remember really enjoying it when I wrote it I wanted to do something a little bit different to the other books that I'd written and I wanted to have a police procedural element to it but that didn't feel like a police procedural the whole way through that you got to know the detectives behind what was going on and out of all my psychological thrillers that's been the lowest seller. And not to say that it's sold badly at all, because it's done absolutely amazing,

but not as good as the other ones. And that was, I think, yeah, I think people forget about that one because maybe it wasn't the most original of my books. Yeah. I really still felt like it was a John Mars

book. Like, I was reading it, I was loving it, it, it was taking me places I didn't think it was going to. My problem is, I think that my first two books that I read of yours, were keep it in the family and the Good Samaritan. Okay. So you started with the darkest ones, I think. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I know. The Good Samaritan was my first one, too. As I should. I had to reread the Good Samaritan recently because we re-released the first three books for these bonus chapters in the end. So I had to read the books again.

And as much as I liked the Good Samaritan, I wasn't allowed to change any of the original story. I could only add by extra bit. I really thought the original Good Samaritan was just a bit too long. If I could go back on, probably cut it down by about 10,000 words. That's interesting. You get really critical and you're doing stuff. The last thing I'll ever have to do with any of my books is when I listen to the audio book.

And yeah, and I find myself getting quite critical then. I'm like, oh, you use that word too many times. Or could have cut that down a little bit. Interesting. Yeah, the audio does change it. Yeah. I've listened to the ones I've listened to were the what lies between us was the narrators were amazing. Yes.

And then what was the other? Oh, you killed me first. I listened to that one. That was one of the most fun books to write. You're so fun to read. It came out to a stranger in a house, which was like about dementia and someone who may or want to not being conned and you don't know. And it's quite dark, not depressing. I don't think of it was.

It was not that I'm a joyous read. And so you thought, you know what? I want to unleash my in a bitch. And now I just really got to go to town with you killed me first. I really enjoyed. Yeah, I remember reading that. And you're like either your acknowledgements or something at the end where you were like, I just wanted to write like essentially not.

Do you say desperate housewives? Or did you say something? Yeah. Yeah. Desperate housewives. So it definitely. Yeah. Maybe I'm just like, well, that explains why we loved it then.

Yeah. I love. a cul-de-sac. I, like, love nothing more than, and that was such a wild ride. And the cover, like, just reminds me so much of how it all culminates, but I won't say anything for you and hasn't read it.

No, it frustrates me the most about not specifically that book, about some of the other books, that some of my favorite characters, I kill off. I really wish I didn't, because there's so many different ways you could bring them back as other little side characters, but I'm just like this butcher who just can't stop myself.

I can't stop my killing. I love that, though. Yeah. I love when I, like, fall in love with a John Mars character and you kill them off. Like, I'm like, just where the courage to do that. Yeah. No, you go ahead.

No, he gave me the courage to do that was reading Peter Swanson's, the kind worth killing. It's one of my all-time favorite psychological thrillers. Yes. It kills off a major character within about the first third of it. I'm like, oh, so you can do this. And after that,

I've been out and about with my sword slashing and a murdering. Oh my gosh. I love that. That's another book we talk about a lot. Yeah. That was one of the books

that got me back into reading. Yes. Absolutely same here. Yeah. But I like, I don't know, I grew up on like loving horror movies and I felt like

every time I liked a character in a horror movie, they would die. Right. I'm a huge Sarah Michelle Geller fan and she's literally died and like everything she's ever been in. And I feel like those characters are more like memorable to me

than the ones that like survived. So I think that's why I like that when you do it in your books. Because I always like, I get attached to them. Even the villains. Yeah. Anything so Michelle Gell has everybody survived in is her marriage, isn't it? She's done great with that. Yeah.

Yeah. She killed it in her personal life. Yeah. She was like, you're going to kill me off in this movie so I can put these damn kids to bed. I have a soft spot for Freddie Pringe Jr. So I did this thing. I was nominated for an international thriller writer's award a few years ago. And they asked the people who were nominated

if they could make a little video just talking about the book. I thought, I could do that, but that's really boring. So instead, you know, that website Canyo where you pay celebrities to do stuff? So I got a bunch of celebrities to read out one-star reviews of some of my books. Brilliant. Yeah, I had, so Freddie Prince Jr. was one of them. There was a guy from NSYNC, Priscilla Presley. Oh, God, what was his name again?

Oh, Jerry Springer. It was great and a great fun doing that. It cost me a fortune to do it, but it was much more of an interesting video. That is so amazing. Oh, I love that. Does that exist on the internet? Or was it just? Yeah, it's on my Instagram.

So I think we will be placed it. I'll put a link for. people. We posted in about the last couple of months. Okay. Yep. I'll put a lid for everybody. That is so cool.

Well, the other thing that Gare is kind of bringing up, you have your kind of like traditional psychological thrillers and then you're more speculative ones. Was there, was it just like one day you had an idea for a speculative one? Did you always kind of want to write in the speculative genre? I didn't even think it was speculative.

So my first two books, when you just did kind of like a family, saga, psychological thriller. Welcome to wherever you are, which became the vacation. And again, that was like more of kind of maybe a loosely psychological thriller. And then I just came up this idea for the one. And it was a little bit futuristic, but I didn't even think of it as a speculative fiction book. Just thought it was, I know, if my readers were going to continue with me, then that'd be great if they wanted to read that as well. And that has ended up becoming like, I think, my most successful book around the world. Well, it was adapted, too.

do, right? Yeah, that was interesting. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Watch that. I mean, I do personally remember liking the book more.

Yeah. It's the only thing you know they get hate over from people and they are, why did you allow this to happen? And my answer is always the same. It paid my mortgage. So why not? Right. The production company just, they went in one direction and they went in a different direction

to the book. which is absolutely up to them. And some people, some people did love it. Some people didn't love it. And it is what it is. And if I never ever, I've had a few of the books optioned,

but if I never have another book optioned, then I'm quite happy to just have that one that's been on the world's biggest streaming platform. Right. For a second that would ever happen. Oh, that was, I saw John Grisham at Thrillerfest last year,

and he said that when, I can't remember which was the first book that was optioned for him. but he was like kind of friends with Stephen King at the time and so he's asking him for advice and he was like if you're going to do it accept the check yeah and let it go he's like and if you don't think you can do it do that don't do it I was like oh that would be rough yeah I am not precious I'm basically a commercial whore I'm such a control freak I would have such a hard time with it. Yeah. Really? Oh yeah.

I would have such a hard time. If I put my blood, sweat and tears into a story and they put, like, I thought of this character for like months and years and, like, worked on their backstory and then they cast like Jennifer Lopez, I would be like, you got to get the fuck out of here.

That would be like my biggest nightmare. You wouldn't even want to go on set and hang out with J-Lo for a day. No. No? No. No. Only fooled by the rocks as she's got, because she's still Jenny from the block, yeah?

She's so mean on the internet, and people have, like, called her out for it, and I'm like, you had maybe two movies you were a good actress in, and it went to your head completely. That would be my biggest pet peeve is if I'm like, this is who I picture in my head for, like, a character, and then they just, like, screwed it up with casting. Yeah. Well, yeah, you are a casting director essentially. So that would check out.

In my mind. With my unlimited budget. Yes. Yeah. No scheduling conflicts. Right. Is there a book of yours that like if it was done right, you would love to see adapted? Like if you had to pick one book and you were like unlimited budget, you get like total creative control what would you pick oh and I'm only allowed one well you had to you made me pick your my least favorite book of yours so this is my three I believe you did it as well can't believe you if you didn't change me in front of everybody it was a trick question

I think it would be I think they could do a really good job with the stranger in her house it doesn't limit budget um and I think I think it has been optioned by production company. So I think they could do something interesting with that, giving the opportunity to, yeah. Or if you're going with a speculative thriller, then, see, I'm going to pick two anyway, the passengers, which is driving,

in driverless vehicles, but that I think you need more of a budget for that. That one is extra creepy, even, or even creepier now than when I read it. Oh, now that there are these driverless vehicles on the road. Just everywhere, yeah. Yeah, and I don't necessarily trust the founders of the company.

right like we don't have that haven't really they've only just started to appear in London I think there'll be more of them this year but they're not really big over yeah yeah I know they're all over L.A and so it's like the bigger cities it's not like I live in the middle of Indiana which is like just the middle of nowhere essentially so I we don't have them here but I don't even have a regular over here oh yeah you don't Gare's even more in I'm like more I'm like the Canadian border in upstate New York and it is like barely any sidewalks. It is, yeah.

The most dangerous thing on the road is me. Oh my gosh, that was making me think of your your silly ticket. I ran a red light recently. Allegedly. It was yon. Allegedly. It was orange. They tricked me.

Yeah. They basically made me pay the ticket because they said if I wanted to fight it and claim that I was innocent I would have to bring proof. I don't know where that proofs can like that could be that could be your next speculative thriller is like you can play your vision onto something so I could just project it on a screen of like this is what I saw when I was driving yeah this interview's now got a bit more edge now that I'm talking to a convicted felon It was only a $50 ticket. So I was like, all that I learned from this is that I'm just going to, now I can really run a red light.

And I know that, like, it's just going to be jump change. Oh, no. The only time I've ever been arrested in my life was in America. And it was in, I was driving from Venice Beach up to San Francisco. And I was doing, so we over here, we use miles an hour. And over there, you use kilometers, don't you? And I got it completely mixed up. and I was driving way too fast and I got pulled over by the cop.

And then I was in an automatic. I think we didn't really have automatics over here then. So I had a converse and a pair of shorts and a t-shirt. And apparently I was the biggest speed of that day. And he actually arrested me. I had to leave this high car on the side of the road, handcuffed, put into the back of a police car, taken to Malibu Municipal Court,

appeared before a judge, got fined $200 in travellers' checks, then was taken back. Oh my gosh. He just trumped your story here. Totally. Totally. Right. How are you going to beat this now, Kate?

I know. Kate's like there's three bodies in my backyard. I'm like, if we have to get somewhere quickly, my husband asked me not to drive. It's the answer I have. Oh, really? I'm such a rule follower. I get nervous about speeding.

Yeah. Okay. Let's cancel this road trip between the three of us things. It ain't going to go well. I know. I'm okay if you, if you want to drive that way. I just don't have to drive you. Between us, between me and get, we'll get there really quick. Yes, I'll just be in the backseat. We will. Reading maybe. I know, because I'm like, I'm going to be 39 in a month. And this was my first ticket.

Okay. So I was like, I'm totally going to get out of this. I'm like, I don't. I haven't gotten one yet. Tyler just got one recently. But he was running late. So. It all fits together. My mom gets pulled over all the time. And she always gets out of it. Oh, good for her. She's like, I'm a little old lady.

She's like, I wasn't aware I was speeding. And then they let her go. I'm like, well, yeah, use what she have. Well, I guess we could talk a little bit about dead in the water too for a second. That one's kind of interesting to me because when I read the synopsis, it kind of felt like it might be speculative. like the concept of him like having a memory when when he's dying essentially yeah he didn't recognize so I was like maybe this is going to go that direction and it does it's definitely a

psychological thriller what was what was your like idea or initial inspiration for that one you know what I honestly I can't remember which is a really rubbish house that's amazing I come up with ideas all the time and I'm like constantly like dictated them into the note section on my phone and then i never again i mean sometimes like we keep it in the family the first like third of that came to me in a dream and literally woke up and was like whispering it in trying to not wake my husband up and try to whisper in my time and most of the time when it has happened before and you look it in the morning is absolute crap but um at some point i'd have this idea about um man drowns life flashes before eyes um remembers everything apart from a kid being murdered

did it really happen that was it and then it's sat on my phone for the best part of two and a half years. And I was flicking the phone for ideas and stuff. And all of a sudden, I had it all worked out in my head literally within five minutes. I had a very, very brief synopsis at beginning and middle and into it. Wow. So I can't, and you can't remember exactly where that one came from. Huh.

That's fascinating. It's definitely a darker one too. Yeah. The further you get into it, you're like, oh. Yes. I know. I was like texting. Get read it before me. So I was like texting him at like every point. I'm like, oh my gosh, this happened. Now I think this.

Also, it came after you killed me first, which was a more lighthearted bitch fest. Yeah. You've gone a bit dark again. Like the book that I'm writing at the moment, I'm just going through with my editor. That's, I wouldn't say it was lighthearted, but it's more relationship orientated than maybe some of my other book. So I'm like this one. It was also called John. Just called him Other John. He's described it as one day meet. So I know what you did last summer. And I quite like that description. Oh, that is your favorite. I know you did last summer is my favorite movie in the whole world. I've not seen the remake of it. But the original is like, is just a classic. I like what they did with like the reboot. But a lot of people did not. Okay. So, but I liked it because I'm, I'm a twisted little bit. and I'm like I will so basically

I've really big this book up and now you're going to read and go I don't see the similarities no I'm actually really excited because and I know you did last summer comparison will always get me but also my favorite book of yours

is when you disappeared okay my very first one and I thought that was such an odyssey and it was like twisty and turny but like really focused on that relationship and I thought it was just like worth every single penny and more like I had a blast with that book so I look back on that books again that's another one I wrote a bonus chapter for

last year and I look at it and think yeah this book is over long ever since like probably about three or four books in my chapters have been a lot snappier and a lot shorter um that kind of just one more chapter are we just one more just one more before you know you're not you it's gone. And I think when you disappeared, maybe could have been pruned a little bit. And I think the chapters could have I think it's among my own worst critic, aren't I? I'm supposed to be here promoting books and talking about

how amazing now and you've got to have them in your life and I'm just like, oh, it was a bit too long. I could have done that with it. But then I'm praising you and I'm like, you're wrong. Like, if when you disappeared was a thousand pages, it would still be my favorite John Mars book. I've got that one I haven't read. I need to read that.

Okay. Okay. It was like really, it reminded me of a little bit of what's that Connie Britton show Dirty John I don't know I've seen the first there was a couple of seasons

wasn't there yeah I only watched the one with Connie Britton because she's like one of my favorites yeah yeah I'm good to know she should always be Rainer James to me I know

I know where was like what was the thing that I fell in love with her it wasn't even it wasn't Nashville because I hadn't watched that it was um american horror story yes yeah that was my introduction to my like lore of Connie Britain and how much i love her i mean i loved that show at the beginning which i would love if

she played the wife and um when you disappeared so i would love if she played the wife and when you disappeared she'd be good wouldn't she you maybe have to age you her she could be your yeah she I think there's like at least one character in every book of yours that I think I got Connie Bratton. Okay. That's my match made in heaven as John Mars and Connie Brann. Okay. But now I got to throw in Freddie Prins a few times now.

Yeah. They need to work. Yeah. Did you, did you surprise yourself with anything in, in dead in the water? or was it just, or did you outline it kind of like you were saying? And mostly then you like went through and wrote it. I outlined it. But then when I brought back a major character from another one of my books,

that was just, she wasn't going to be in it. There was no plans to bring her back. And then all of a sudden it was one of those little light bulb moments. I'm like, oh, what if I did this? And then I had to go back and rework a bit so to make it all work. for the bits that I'd written and was going to piece together. And yeah, for me, once that, I was struggling with that book at times to just kind of get it right.

I had more rewrites than any book I've ever done because there was so much too much and I wanted to get it right. And other John, he always reads like the first version of it and he came back with, my God, so many critical notes. We were almost divorced over it. But most of it he was right with, which really irritates me. Really frustrating. And yeah, so when I decided to bring this character back, that was like for me, okay, I'm really starting to really like this book now.

Yeah, that's crazy. So that was like one of the coolest moments in the book. Yeah, yeah. That was like my wild moment where I was like, oh, holy shit. It's one of the five moments when I could bring back a character that I haven't killed off in another book. That's what I was going to say. At least she survived to make an appearance. It makes sense that she's the one that's hanging on, you know?

Yeah. That's my point, too. have you ever had any ideas that like you really thought were going to be great and you just had to abandon it no not yet nice everything that i've had an idea to write i've gone on the head of written and it's worked out all right yes i've never been i've never had that i know some people have like in their desk draw or something they've tucked away or hitting on a file on the computer they're not going to go back to or they might go back to one day but I've never got that state I don't think I would get to that stage that's why I have to have the beginning the middle and the end worked out there are

I've got noxices of books which are three quarters of the way there but I just can't get that last chunk right there just sit on the section of my phone oh wow that's crazy are there any oh go ahead um I think that dead in the water is one of your darker ones obviously yeah um have you had either like with that experience or any of your other books that you would think would be darker did you ever have any moments where you're like I like looking back maybe I wish I didn't go as dark or do you have any moments where you're like I should have went darker. No, I think I've gone pretty much as dark as I want to get there was one yeah so when I wrote the one there were two characters in there so it's like there are five couples and there was one couple I. two people who didn't really work for me and I did think about rewriting them and I've got about four or five thousand words through an alternative story and then I did get rid of that in the end because that was just a little bit too dark about the direction that was going to go in and the

book needed a little bit of light and shade and needed a little bit of successful couple here I couldn't do a sixth couple because that would have just been too much and the book would never have ended because that one's re-reaching when is it next month so again it's the 10th anniversary by the first self-published it. So I've written five bonus chapters for that. It's got a new cover here in the UK and US and these five bonus chapters. And it's like we called the last bit of it, the one plus ten. So it literally follows these couples ten years later to find out what happened.

Oh, I love that. Whether they lived happening or read it. We'll have to buddy read it here. Or it'll be a reread for me, but that would be fun. Yeah, I want to because that's the one speculative thriller that I own. Okay. But I will, yeah, I'll wait for the new one. It's weird.

That's the one that's the one that's still get the most feedback about. That's one of the first been translated the most time because I'll, my book shelf behind it, I think I'll turn the computer up around. So this section here is all my foreign editions. So many of them are, yeah, different editions of the one and different covers and different languages. And that's the one that always amazes me that still just keeps them selling. Yeah. Everyone is into experience, like having it translated even, like at all. It's, to start off with it was really like, oh my God, wow, I can't believe this is happening.

And now you kind of, you kind of take it for granted a bit and you don't need to do that out of an ungrateful way. But it's like it's happened before, so there's no novelty attached to it. But do look at the covers because most countries do a different cover. Some of them are just so surreal. I can't get my head around any of them. It is asking how different they are by country. Yeah. Some of them are great ones are. Let me, I can find it really quickly. I'll try and show you about that. I don't know what they'll be able to see. So, bear with. So the one American cover is that version, or that's the original they've changed the

yeah um and this i can't remember which country it is but they've kind of yeah they've done that as their cover that's basically a woman long hair it looks like an advert for like some kind of hair gel in the 1980s yes it does you that is the neon locks yeah i mean i really like the oh i wish i could find the bear more i'm not i keep going off point here Let me just try and find the... No, I'm fascinated. This is amazing. Yes.

I think this one is the one, but this is the Ukrainian version, and they instead have used a couple of skeletons holding hands. Holding phones, sorry. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. That's a choice. So when I open these tactics, I'm like, oh, okay.

But obviously, you know, these, they know their audiences. And yeah, yeah, that's a terrible thing. It's up to them to do what they want to do. Yeah, now I want to, interview someone who now I want to know the science behind all of that. Yes. The social science. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, off subject, but I just read Secret Lives of Murderers Wives after Gare told me to read it. And that's one where like, I think the UK cover actually captures the vibes better. Okay. Like when I was looking at it. I was like, actually, I like that one better. I ordered the UK version too. Yeah, I like it.

Yeah. It's pretty. I'm not a big fan of orange though. so that's probably part of it. The other, the U.S. cover is just a lot of orange, basically. Okay. I'm only, I think, I'm just like a sucker for like the silhouette of a woman in a window. Yeah.

Like that always gets, I'm like, I don't care. I don't care if it's a book about aliens. I am reading it. Like, what is the alien doing spying on her? I do not care. I, the woman in a window, I will read it. Yes. I will binge, binge the shit.

The trend over here. for a long time. It's just been a house in the street, maybe slightly dark and early dusk, and there's a silhouette of a woman in a window. Yep. Every time. It gets in every time. We did a whole episode actually recommending blue and yellow cover books because so many of them, even what you're talking about, are still like blue and then there's like the yellow light in the top of the house. Yeah, too. I think we could do a whole episode. Well, and I'm guilty of it. I'm not guilty personally because I didn't say,

yes but well obviously it works too so yeah nothing wrong with doing it yeah do you have any like so you're talking about like your different mood kind of dictates what what you're going to write that day do you have any other like rituals or hacks or things you do to like get yourself to write no i'll just what i'll try and do about 2,000 words a day is because i think if i can do 10,000 words a week then within what two and a half months i can have like the first draft finish And the first draft is always absolutely garbage. It doesn't matter as long as it's out on my head and on a screen. But yeah, I'll try and write first thing in the morning.

Or if I know I've got plans later on in the week, I'll try and do 4,000 words that day if I can. Just started experimenting with dictating onto, yeah. And so using my voice to do it instead of like, I only type with two, possibly four fingers. It's like a monkey. It's like dictating instead. And it's like I'm flying through stuff.

It's really good. I wish I thought of this system. There's a lot of changes you have to do with punctuation and stuff. Right. Yeah. My risk is I often toothpicks. I sit and chew toothpicks. Nobody's business. And tic tacks.

You still have those over there, those sweet tic. Yeah. Those are those as well. The favorite tic-tac. You know what? They used to be the ones. Any time I went to America, I'd come back with almost a suitcase full of cinnamon-flavored tic tic-tacks,

but they don't do that. them anymore. They don't do them over here either. I love the orange. I love the orange. The orange is different. For Christmas, my husband bought me a massive box of French tic tic-tacks with all these different

flavors that I didn't have. I've rationed myself to a couple of days. It's the most exciting present I've ever had. Oh, I love that. I love that too. I love those random things. We have a lot of the Asian grocery stores that have different flavor Kit Katz.

Oh, yeah. And there's a matcha-flavored Kit-Kat, and it's like my favorite thing in the entire world. I've seen like the array, but I've never been around anything other than a plain one. That's my trick. That's cool. Nothing like a Masha Kit-Kat. Yeah. And a very dark John Mars book.

Yes. That's my ultimate duo. What's my red lights. Yeah. do you this is the other thing that I'm intrigued by actually with readers and writers so like some readers see like a movie as they're reading and some are like what do you mean and it seems to be the same thing with writers so do you see the stuff as you're writing it or is it more just like you do yeah I try and picture it I try and picture because when I work as a journalist I've gone a lot of TV sets and watch stuff being filmed then interview the cast and stuff and I try and imagine how it would play out if I was watching it on TV and I'm watching it on TV and I'm just watching it on TV. where people would move, what you'd see, what you wouldn't see, what you'd turn your head and only notice then. So, yeah, I'll try and do it that way. Yeah, absolutely. Do you think anything from your time as a journalist, inspired any of your ideas?

Or does it, like, affect help your writing at all? Sorry, this was put, I can't remember why that my line went off there. Yeah, so I think journalism helped me write kind of succinctly and try to, waffle too much and try and stick to the point um also taught me about deadlines um my even though i write mainly in the morning my best time of writing is during the day between about three and five o'clock that's when i'm in a really full flow and that was when my deadline for stories used to be but it's also it's all pickup time between three and five which is the worst possible time for me so i'm retrain my head to think as soon as i get up right start working and

and see how it takes you. And if you want to be distracted, you can go pick him up. Yeah. We've got nothing else to do. Yeah. You're like the lines cut. Right. I'm out of my tic tag ration.

Well, my recent obsession was we've got two ponds in the garden. We have loads of frogs. And it was the horny frog time a few weeks ago. And it was just this mass orgy of like 40 frogs at it. And it would set like the security. cameras off at night because there makes so much noise. I just became, I became this frog pervert. I'd be out there just,

how many of the little set? Oh my God. I have never heard of that. I thought you meant like, you know how they're like horned frogs? I thought that's what you meant at first. And then you were like, no, it was a frog orgy. Yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh.

I am terrified of frogs. Are you? But you would not like them for about three weeks then? It's the idea that like they're just like relaxed and then all of a sudden they just like pounce and like I live in the country and I have like a back deck that goes the entire length of my house and then it has the stairs that go into the lawn. And there's always like a tree frog like a little itty-bitty guy stuck somewhere where you least expect it.

And it just like freaks me out because one time I was walking into my house. and I felt something on my leg and there was a tree frog that had jumped on the back of my calf and I was in my living room screaming bloody murder like begging for help I was crying I finally got it off my leg and then I couldn't get it out of my house because it was like hopping all over

and I was not touching it and it was just my brother used to like catching toads and I was like why have you ever had a toad piss in your face? Not my face. It was this big, ugly looking thing and it shouldn't, it was in a part of the garden where I was about to cut the grass. So I picked it up and thought, oh, you know, I'll do the good thing.

I'll pick it up and I'll move it somewhere and my hands were in front of my face and just all of a sudden this jet of something just went up all over me. I'm like to hell without that one, that's a thing. So yeah, that was a delight. Gare would have died. I would have picked it up in the first place. Oh yeah, that's true. I would have like cranked the lawnmower and tried to to scare it so that it jumped away.

Oh, yeah. This thing wasn't budging. No. I'm that way kind of embarrassingly about spiders, no matter what size they are. Like, I can get myself over it to kill it because, like, I don't want it just wandering my house. But at first, my body just like completely freezes, even if it's just like a harmless little spider. I hate the house spiders with the big legs. And so I'll use the vacuum cleaner and move them up and then throw.

I'll try to do my bit and throw them up out in the garden, hoping that like the internal workings of the hoover haven't kind of like ripped his legs off. It's hopeful. Try to do the right kind of. Yeah. A frog or a snake? A snake will give you. That snake is what Tyler. Tyler almost can't look at a snake if it's on like a TV show. We don't have many. We only have like about two snakes over here that are native and neither of them particularly poisonous. We're about to have a neighbor.

Okay. I'm terrified of snake. That I don't like them. Eastwick movie. Did you ever see that? Yeah. Yeah. when they when he like plays with their minds and shares in bed and she pulls her covers back and there's like thousands of snakes in bed with her and they're like a no

no thank you no the most every night here because my six year olds obsessed with them nature programs and things strangling snakes strangling larger animals you're obsessed with it oh my gosh I don't mind if it's on TV I just don't want to ever encounter one not in my life like we have like I think there's still have a little like in real life we have little like

garden snakes here so like they don't bite they're not poisonous they're not going to squeeze me to death but like sometimes I was like see one move out of the corner of my eye when I'm outside with my dog and then like he's curious so he's like he thinks it's like a slinky or something yeah so then I'm just that crazy guy that's like jumping around screaming over like a snake that's this long and like yelling at my dog oh no thank you Bruce is getting up. He's like, do you need a dog? Do you guys need protection?

Yeah, my dog is no protection to anything. I know. They aren't protection against humans, that's for sure. But they try to keep the bunnies and the snakes out. Our dog died about two and a half years ago, bless him. And he's appeared in all of my books. His name would appear, all of them. And I wanted a Zoom chat with this big Facebook book club.

And they're like, oh, my God, we love when your dog appears in your books. can we see him? Is he there with you right now? And I just went over to the corner of the room, pulled back these little urn with these ashes in there. There you go. They had no idea he was dead. Oh, that's dead. Oh.

Poor buddy. What to do with the sense of humor. Well, yeah. You've got to laugh through the tears or just laugh in general. That is one thing I respect, though, is that you don't kill animals in your butts. I wouldn't be allowed to. You know, on this. yeah people I can

keep it in the family over the years in that book 40 children were murdered never had one single complaint like a cat being kicked or a dog being something to it they'd be uproar yeah can't do it I mean I'm part of that technically I am too

I am too I wonder what the psychology of it is like because it really doesn't make sense but there's so many of it like that I think it's also because, like, I don't have children. You're right. I have heard moms who've said, like, once they had a kid, they couldn't read the same things. Like, my best friend has, like, a very similar personality to me, but she's definitely gotten softer since she had kids.

Yeah. And, like, has, like, yelled at me because she's, like, a child dies in this book. And I'm like, suck it up. Years are still alive. Like, just don't put them in that position. Right. You see, something happens to a child towards the end of when you disappeared, doesn't it? And I don't think having a kid now, I could have written that now.

Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. It's struggle. It makes sense. I get it. A lot of people are like that, though. I interviewed Karen Slaughter, and she was like, you'll never see an animal get hurt in my buck.

And she does some really bat-shick crazy things to her characters. Like, she's like, you never want to. The good daughter still scarred me. Yeah. The good daughter and pretty. girls have scarred me and pretty girls yeah but she's like you don't want to you don't want to find yourself in the first chapter of my book because you're you're a goner but she's like if you're an animal in my book you'll be safe yeah i've not read anything by her yet just because i think i don't

necessarily choose a lot of dark books to read because it's right enough of them i don't really want to spend all my life even on the dark side so but i appreciate what an incredible writer and incredible success that she's had yeah what do you read what do you prefer um i do like a psychological thrill of a more kind of like where there's not so much death in it so i like lisa jewel i'm a big fan of hers yeah and talking about my bookshelf behind me what else do i like there's my go-to for just like an absolute palette cleanser is uh taylor jenkins read oh yes i just like you know what to expect from one of her novels i really liked her fantastic.

Lucy Foley. A lot of British writers here, aren't there? Oh, yeah, so you're still in the thriller genre. Just not. One of my favorite books of all time is A Little Life. Oh. I don't think there are books as miserable as that. Okay.

Yeah, I was going to say, you can't say like, oh, I don't like to read dark face because I write dark books and then you're like, my favorite books a little life. I thought it was a comedy. I don't like when animals get killed, but my favorite movie's Bambi. Yeah, no, I really, I really enjoyed that. God, actually, when I look on there, I think, I'm thinking, yeah, maybe I'm a little bit darker of my taste than I thought it was.

It's okay. I didn't know if you were going to, like, pull out a rom-com, basically. No, no, don't do romance. I'm not trying, part of me would like to try something like Sarah, does it, Sarah Jane Mass, was there a mass? Yeah. The, yeah, the Thornt of Thorns and Rose.

Yeah. I'm really dumbed it down by so you know the drag anything. Yeah, maybe try something completely different. I've got like all of them and all of the Game of Thrones books on my shelf. And have I opened them? No, not one. Yeah. I have all of the

Court of Thorns and Rose's books on my shelf right now and I haven't picked up one of them yet, but I'm determined to. Yeah, I will want that. I do a lot of audio books, though. so maybe I'll do that what's your favorite what's your like most memorable audio book I'll always I'll always have a Peter Swanson book I'm just going to look at my phone here to see what I've been history I don't know whether you're aware there's a British writer who called Claire Douglas who's very good she does a good kind of yeah and what I

really enjoyed recently called Julie Chan is dead that was so good yeah really that went in a really direction. It got weird by the end, yeah. Yeah, really weird. It reminded me almost of yellow face in the way that it, not in the general stuff, it's the way it just got weird towards the end. Yeah. Yeah, I just like just stuff to just keep me entertained while I'm looking at the shops at the gym or something. The new neighbors by Claire Douglas is really good. just that's the one I just started about chapter 10 when you just read right yeah yeah you're in

okay yeah you guys almost buddy read unintentionally right that would be my dream you've ever spoken to it lovely we'll read a quarter of thorns and roses together oh my god that would be so cool

10,000 page book or something I know how long is the is the first one I'm assuming it's just... The first one's pretty long. Yeah. But I heard it's like a lot of world building. Oh, yeah, for the first one. So it's just like pages and pages of...

You do have to... Picturing castles and dragons. Oh, it says 411 pages. That's not too bad for a first in the series. Yeah, but 300 of them might be world building. Yeah, and I think they just keep getting bigger. Yeah. The cliff notes to this.

I mean, could you guys read it and act it out with sock up bits for me? I almost said... sex puppets. I mean, you could buy that too. We could do that with heated rivalry, but not with it. There we go. I mean, you probably know it by heart now. That's my palate cleanser.

It's specifically male, male hockey romance. Yeah. It has to be like hockey. Yeah. Yeah. The books are pretty good. There's like a few that I liked more than others. But I think the show, like,

did a really good job with with the first couple of them. I so badly wish because like reheating heated rivalry became such a thing. I wish I enjoyed rewatching and rereading. Like all of you who get so much joy from it, I'm so jealous. You can't reread a book. Not if it's like, so like if, if Gare reads the one, I would reread it with him, but I read that probably six years ago. Like it was long enough ago.

but like I don't have I don't have like comfort shows that I rewatch like I and I think I finally realize that for me it's because like I know some people it's like the predictability is what like helps them like kind of calm down and for me I don't feel is locked in when I know what's going to happen I finally like alert because I used to be like why can't I and I get distracted I'm like more likely if it's a TV show to like get on my phone because I know what's happening anyway. Yeah. I wish I enjoyed it more. I am like you on that. I can't reread. There's only about two books I've ever read more than once in my life that are not school and TV as well. Only recently I can't I never read before I go to bed. I like to watch something just getting off to sleep.

Because the news is so depressing in all world wide at the moment. But I've been going back to like the last two or three series of friends and watching half an hour of that each night. And that's yeah, I know what's going to happen. That's my little comfort blanket. That makes sense. like everyone would hate my comfort blankets oh god what is it Amityville no no I don't like the ghosty things I like it when it's like a person

that's like kind of fucked up because it makes me feel better about my taste in men so I go from there I'm like you know well at least he wasn't like Jason Borges oh my gosh Jason Borges like similar

yeah by the I think the movie that I've watched the most in my life is the War of the Roses. Okay, yeah, yeah. With Kathleen Turner and Michael Douglas, I will re-watch it time and time again, and it just, like, really calms me down to see a husband and a wife try to kill each other

over a piece of property. I get it. I get it, man. I've enjoyed exploring old films with our six-year-old, particularly over Christmas, so we watched Edward Sissorhands with him, which he loved. And the first Adam's family, which I love those two Adams family films. They just made me laugh.

Apparently he's not old enough yet to watch Gremlins or Heathers, but we'll get on to that. Yeah, you get that. How old is he? Six. Six. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love Heathers.

I love Heathers. Heather's is one of my favorite movies. But yeah, I wouldn't say, I think I was like maybe eight or nine. I was going to say you were, you still watched some stuff pretty early. The War of the Roses has been my favorite movie since I was. was five. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I used to like sneak the VHS in my like little, my little TV. It was like all of my like Disney movies stacked up next to my TV and then like my like hidden copy of the War of the Roses. Yeah. That I stole from my parents. That is so cute. And I used to like

watch it behind their backs and then they eventually caught me and they were like, well, you've already seen it yeah he's already seen it how old I am because I remember when my dad brought home a first VHS recorder and we didn't even buy it he rented it used to rent

and it was before certificates were given on films and so the two films that he brought home were Poultergeist and I think I was about seven or eight Poultergeist and Police Academy 5 or something oh my gosh

I remember when you used to have to rent a VCR. Yeah. Yep. I used to have to rent them. I know. I can like, when you said the Disney DVDs, I could like smell that like neon packaging.

Yeah. I had not thought of that in a while. Heaven forbid if you tried to watch one after dark because the crinkling of it would wake up the entire neighborhood. Yes. Like it was like the loudest thing in the entire world. you just got to sneak your stories in though yeah I can memorize them now at this point

I mean it's done well for you so far maybe not my dating life no no I was like um I've had more toxic relationships than like half the cast of tell me lies because I watch because I watch the War of the Roses

for 34 years now oh my gosh just like oh well you were like for dinner so I'm going to drop a chandelier on you yeah well do you have any other questions i can't i don't know if i have i could go on all night i mean i know i could come up with them yeah yeah yeah yeah you good though otherwise do you want to give us any like little hint as to oh i do have a question oh good is there any trope or a plot device in a thriller that you haven't explored yet that you've always been like curious to explore

yet. I think I would like to write some kind of haunted ghosty thing, but I think a lot too far down the line of the two genres I have written in to try anything really experimental, either that or cowboy erotic a dinosaur porn. Like that is,

it is what you're interested in? Yeah. Do you imagine it? I would read it. I mean, I was good, I would probably have read it. I would pre-order it in a heartbeat. I'd be like, I'm going to learn about monster, monster. What is it called monster? No, I think I'm quite happy staying in my lane.

I think I've got great. I'm lucky that I've been able to write two different styles of books and still keep my audience. So I think I'll stick with those two. Yeah. It could be your like Taylor Swift Erez tour of like having the haunted house with all of your reader's favorite characters

that you've killed off as the ghosts. Oh, that's a really good idea. Okay. What percentage do you want for this game? Turn it here. I just want to be first in the acknowledgement. I just want an ounce of attention. Yeah. Easy.

I'm easy. It's getting harder and harder to come up with people to, to dedicate a book to. And we realized that I'd even dedicated one to my dead dog before my husband. Oh. That would be me. If I wrote a book, it would be my dog over any man. Oh, yeah. There's one trope that I can't read in a book and that I refuse to read.

I never read books about twins. Oh. Really? Yeah. Did you see sinners? Yes. I, but he's not, Michael B. Jordan.

Yes. He's not as well known in the UK as he is in America. And I spent the first 45 minutes an hour thinking there were two different actors. Wow. Generally, no, we genuinely did not realize that there were two different, two different,

though it was the same man. And that is why I'm really happy he got that Oscar because, like, guys, he did two performances okay then that's that'll be the exception then but apart from no twins but maybe but you don't read reads the twins I get that

I'm trying to remember the last time I read something with twins I know I have I feel like I have there probably more than you think out there now I can't think of it if I've actually read a few thrillers with twins and I feel like they've all kind of done the same thing so now I'm I'm with you on that

yeah oh Phantom Lim they're twins right? Yeah. Yeah. I think. I don't know that one. It's one of Lucinda Barry's like one of her early ones.

I think that was the last one. Because we read that one for Book Club. I think that was the last one. It was a pretty cool take on that though, too. So you took it, you're asking the only one about what books are like. And to be honest, you know what? I didn't think I like particularly miserable books. But all I can think of is like these depressing books that I've been listening to.

I had two in a row. One called Tender is the flesh. do you know that? I've heard about that. I've heard something. That's a good one. And another one, I who have never known men,

which is a really depressing book. I just got the audio book because it was on sale. Yeah. Yeah. It always sounds like it should be the name of a grinder profile. But I've really enjoyed the book. I really enjoyed the book.

But yeah, maybe I need to listen to a comedy of some kind. I know. I'm a huge fan of miserable, sad books. Hmm. What did you say? I'm a huge fan of miserable and sad books. Oh, yes.

Yeah, you're right at home here. Have you read a density of souls by Christopher Rice? Yes. Oh, my God, yes. Years, it's quite a few years old now, isn't there? That was one of my favorite books. Yeah. You were reading when you were a teenager, right?

Mm-hmm. I was like 13 or 14 when I read that. Yeah, I bought it in America, actually, because it came out, came out of there, a couple of years before it came out of here. Yeah, that was, yeah, he's a got, we'd have not made anything by him since, though. Not that, I don't have no real reason why. Yeah.

He did, like, some, he did some thrillers. And then he did, like, a horror-esque, I guess, kind of, like, trilogy. And now he's doing, um, he has, like, a MM romance series. He's a good name, right? Yeah. Or is it? Yeah.

Travis Rice is the pen name for them. Yeah, but Identity of Souls is one of my favorites. And a little life. Wow. You go fuck, yeah. He is just full of joy in his books.

I like kick my feet when something's like miserable and bleak. Like it's just like how we name the stars by Andres and Orderica is a really good one too. If you want like a little like drama

sort of love story I just went you explained it to me I was sad you just need to send me out of book list of stuff that I need to listen to or read yeah I will do that 100% see I need to I need to read a density of souls and the paper palace

I have so there's like some of Gere's like mainstays that I still haven't read yet the last winner of Danny Lansing and the last one of Danny Lansing What was his? P.D. Minor. Oh.

Is that the author of that one? Yeah. I think he was popular in the UK. Oh. But. I'm intimidated by how sad it sounds, but I need to do it. It's very depressing. But it's good. Yeah.

I will. I will eventually. You've got me reading current ones now. I know. I actually reread because of, dead in the water, I re-read Hideaway by Dean Coontz. Right. Oh, yeah. Have you ever read that?

Never read anything by him. It's the only one I've ever read. It's the only one I've ever read. But I really enjoyed it. It's a man dies in a car accident and he's brought back in the hospital. And when he's brought back, he keeps getting these visions of the point of view of a serial killer in his area. and then the serial killer like point of view that he starts seeing is the serial killer targeting his teenage daughter. Okay.

Very good. Very good. I do need to read that one too. John Mars helped me expand my reading library a little bit. I'm not just an education. Nobody ever. We could definitely talk about books this whole time. for two more hours probably.

We already talked about horny toads. We've really covered the bases. I do think we've seen and have been there. There's a toad ever pissed in your face. I think we do have, we have our sound by there. Yeah, I know. That'll just be the title.

Yeah. Well, we obviously are big fans. This was very exciting for us. We were excited all day long in Texas. seeing each other yeah i really enjoyed it's been really good fun yeah thank you