Bookwild - How Reading Increases Empathy with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: August 27, 2024

This week, Halley Sutton and I dive into an NYU study that showed how reading raises empathy, and share books that have expanded our empathy as well.Books We Talked AboutDear America SeriesHurt for MeDear DickheadDaisy Jones and the SixThe Force of Such BeautyThe PushLittle DeathsMissing White WomanThe ReformatoryDid You Hear About Kitty Karr?Say Hello to My Little FriendThe Lion Women of TehranStar GirlSince She’s Been Gone Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I'm back with Hallie Sutton this week. Woohoo. So happy to be back with you, Kate. Sorry, I interrupted you. Oh, God. You're okay. I'm just glad I'm using the correct mic because on my last episode with you, I realized it was going through my camera.

And I'm like, how did she even hear me? Oh, you were great. It was great. I know. I'm always, half the time I forget to grab headphones. I'm the worst at having stuff around when I need it. Yeah. Yeah, well, as a podcast producer sitting with a mic in front of me and then the audio not being good, I was like, oh, my God.

Oh, no. This is like my number one job. But we're back with a good mic for me, at least. But I saw a TikTok here recently that I'm going to play for people. And I was like, that would be a fun podcast topic. and I feel like Hallie would have some good thoughts about it. I'm flattered. So here it is, I'll probably,

women read more fiction than men, and by reading fiction, many, many studies have shown that it makes you a more empathetic person. So within fiction, what are the genres that are really driving this increase in empathy? And I found a study that was done by NYU that actually specifically it is people who, who read romance and suspense slash thriller that see this increased level of empathy.

Really? So yeah. Wow. Oh, well, I'm reading Akitar. Good for me. Like that's helping me. And I think they were being cute and funny about it, but that's like actually true. That's so funny.

The top liked comment, I think it has like five, six thousand likes on it or something is like me to my husband as I'm reading Ice Planet Barbarian. I am better than you. That is so funny, but like also yes, you are. Yes, but it's actually true. So the study, like many studies have shown fiction, increased your empathy, but they actually surveyed people by genre and then also gave people an interpersonal sensitivity survey. And after they controlled for personality, gender age, English fluency, exposure, nonfiction,

only the romance and the suspense slash thriller genres remained significant predictors of interpersonal sensitivity, aka empathy. So there you go. Wow. Amazing. I thought that would be really fun to talk about because I always think it's cool to talk about how you can become more empathetic. through reading. And now NYU has a study proving it. Totally. So what are what are some of your first

thoughts about it? I'm curious to hear what your thoughts were on the video. Yeah. So a couple of things. I think literally because she also says like fiction in general also raised levels of empathy too. And I think the reason that can happen so much is in most books, even if it's in third person, you're spending time in someone else's head for like a really long time. And so you're literally, literally living someone else's life and like having experiences that you yourself wouldn't or just don't have. So like bare bones, that's where it's always like made sense to me that like spending that much time like eight to 10 hours in a character's mind is probably going to give you some empathy

for some different situations. Totally. I think that's like spot on. That's what I was thinking too is, you know, how much, how much books. And I'm sure there are studies on other mediums. So I don't want to like say this like I know it for sure. But books force you to engage emotionally and sort of like imaginatively in a way that a lot of other mediums do. don't. Like, I think movies can provide a very cathartic, emotional, empathetic experience, but like you're seeing, you're seeing a picture somebody else has arranged for you. With books, you're having to, like, do that work yourself.

And I think there must be something about the being in somebody else's brain and then having to engage your own sense of like, because you're, you're an avatar of it, really, right? Like, you're reading something and reading what the character is experiencing and it starts to blur the walls between what the. characters experiencing and what I'm experiencing. And I think that that must be really the secret sauce between like increasing empathy there. And something else. And so they talked about that study and something else that just came to me as they were mentioning as they talked about they

controlled for gender. They controlled for all these other things. But they also talk about two. So the genres that do it the most are romance and thriller and like suspense. And I'm curious about your thoughts about why. Because I have some. some thoughts about why. But it also strikes me that those are genres that are also very heavily dominated by women readers. And I know that that's not exclusively true, but I'm curious about if that has any effect at all. And in fact, that women read a lot more fiction in general than men do. Yeah, I wondered about that too. So, yeah, and the other thing I think is interesting to your point is I think romance and thrillers are also the ones that like get looked down on. Yeah, I know,

right in snob if you if you're a snobby if you're in a snobby reading circle it's like yeah oh you don't read literary fiction you read thrillers and romance i know and i and i actually think there's something like really wonderful about the idea that they weren't like it's literary fiction you know it's not like go read you know jonathan friends and and you'll have more empathy it's like get yourself to acatar and like develop your sensibilities as a person for sure and so i'm with you i think that there's and i also think like something like I do think part of that is tied in. I'm not trying to be gender essentialist here, but I do think part of that is tied in of like romance and thrillers being like genres that are heavily dominated by women writers and women readers and that being part of the reason

they're sort of looked down on. But it's also curious to see that they are such effective modes for building empathy. Yeah. I feel like with thrillers, um, heightened emotions is kind of a part of it. Like if you're really calling it a thriller or suspense, like that means there's a big feeling that you're feeling all the way through. So I feel like that is part of it. And then also like thrillers can really, and non-thrillers can too. But thrillers really follow the hero's journey in some cases. So then you're experiencing like all this tension and how this person like goes through and figures it out. So I wonder if it's also just kind of like sticks in your head differently since it's emotionally charged.

I think you're right. And I think that's actually probably true about both of those genres, right? Like romance, you're getting a very different emotional charge. But like you're getting a very, it is often a very like emotional charge or very, it pulls at you in a certain way. And then thriller, like you said, you're also in a heightened emotional state of like anxiety and different things. And it's interesting that horror wouldn't necessarily make that genre. but I think that there's something, I think there's all, it makes me wonder, and I don't think the study went this in depth. And so obviously, Kate and I are going to have to do our own research investigation on this to like really get in there. But I'm curious too about like, you know, there's so many studies about why women read crime novels, why women read thrillers, why women women read

things in which they are often primarily the victims, which is, and it's this interesting thing. Again, I feel like I'm waiting into gender essentialist terms. I'm not trying to do that. Like, I know plenty of men read crime fiction thrillers, but like, but there's so many, been so many think pieces over like the last decade about like why women in particular are drawn to this genre. And I wonder if, and there's, you know, thoughts about it's like you get to experience some of the like fears you might have about being victimized in different ways, played out, but in a very safe way. But I wonder if that too might also be the mechanism for some of that empathy building is sort of like seeing

represented in a very safe fictional way, traumatic experiences that might build your capacity to understand or empathize with those in the real world, too. You know, that you're kind of like living through that or seeing somebody else live through that in a way that like the news doesn't quite make it as personal as a book would, you know? Yes. Yeah. That also reminds me of adjacent to that is like why representation in stories matter. So, like, that was one of the things I was thinking about with empathy, too, is, like, especially when it comes to, like, different experiences because of your race.

Like, yeah, is such a wide range of experiences. And so when you're able to, like, read from something that's, like, very rooted in, like, a culture that isn't necessarily your culture. Totally. then you get empathy for like those things too. I had that thought too. And it also made me think of, again, I don't know. It seems to me like romance, perhaps more than other genres, has been having a really good burst of inclusivity the last couple of years where we're seeing more romances that are from the perspective of different people of people of color.

We're seeing like neurodivergent romances. We're seeing like body diversity romances. Like I feel like in a way, romance is the genre that has like, which, you know, you know, which, you're not. you know, comes from a background of being like extremely white and extremely hetero, but like has started to open its doors more and more. And so thinking about that in terms of empathy too, I think you're totally right. And I'm wondering if that's part of it as well as this sort of like more inclusive space,

not to say that the work is done or that romance as a genre is doing it perfectly, but I feel like I'm seeing more and more of that in romance than traditionally. And I think that's great. Yeah. Yeah. It is. Yeah. And I just don't.

read much romance. And sometimes I feel bad ever saying it because I'm not even trying, like, because some people do act. Totally. Who reads romance? I'm just like, no, it just doesn't click in my head the way thrillers do. I get it. But like thrillers do sometimes, I think, because they're pushing the boundary action wise or that kind of wise, sometimes they're a little more inclusive than other. Oh, for sure. For sure. And I think that there has been like a really good, and strong, and there needs to be more a bit of a movement towards like more inclusivity in the thriller genres for sure. And I think that with that you only see like increased empathy and like different things. I also think it makes me think of this is going to be, I'm waiting into

waters that I haven't fully thought through. But it makes me think of like part of the reason that a lot of us read the Diary of Anne Frank in school was because there's. there's a way that like reading an individual story helps you unlock something really big and universal. Do you know what I mean where it's like we all, I mean, I hope we can all agree listeners that like the Holocaust was awful and real. And like, but, but as a concept, it's this big concept. But when you read it like the diary of Anne Frank and reading one person's experience, it makes it personal and like comprehensible to you on a level that I think it doesn't reading about like the mass experience, even though what you're looking at is like mass suffering

and trauma. I think it's like the getting to the individual stories about it are like the way to make people really kind of be able to unlock it in their brain and like wrestle with like the horribleness. You know what I mean? I do. And it's crazy that you kind of said this the way this lines up. It's really perfect timing that you said that because I ended up, I'm going to be interviewing Marjan Kamali for her book, The Lion Women of Tehran. Amazing. And it's a hilarious story, how we got connected. I'll tell you later.

But in the press kit that they sent over of like things she could talk about, she said this quote inspires her when she writes historical fiction. So her writing professor, E.L. Dr. Rowe said the historian will tell you what happened. The novelist will tell you what it felt like. like. I feel like that's exactly what you just said about like versus like seeing things on the mass level versus like her book. You like feel what it was like to like have rights as a woman. And then just like one day they disappeared. Totally. Totally. And like yeah. And that's such an empath. Like I think that that's something that we like maybe without being consciously aware of it.

I think that that's often why people read fiction, right? It's to like experience all these different lives and realities that are not the one that you're living in and that like just naturally inside of that has to come this growth of empathy and like understanding. I mean, as long as you're like, you know, physiologically capable of like expanding your empathetic range, which most of us are, totally. But like I totally agree with that. I think that's like, right, you know. Yeah. I was thinking about the whole time I was reading the book because it's just it's heavy and it's harrowing and it's so emotional, but then at the same time, I'm like, this is like what people lived through. Totally.

I just kept, like, thousands of women were feeling this way, basically. Crazy. Crazy. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah, but it is, it is cool. I like sometimes, actually one of my picks is like that sometimes, too, when it's like a book includes,

even not just a culture, but maybe like a community. unique community of people. It's fun to kind of learn about that type of community through a story. Yeah, absolutely. I think so too. And like this branch is off into something that I was going to maybe bring up a little bit later.

But like as I've told you, don't know when this episode will air, but as of recording, I'm about a week and a half out from going to Egypt, which is like a life dream of mine. And I'm really excited. And I, I like I'm taking packing very seriously as I always do on trips but one of the things that I'm taking very seriously is like what books am I going to bring like I want to try to maybe bring some books that are like about Egypt or set in Egypt so that I can have that experience of reading those there but also it just is sort of like this way of like curating for myself like what what like readerly emotional experience do I want to have alongside this like crazy life experience and so I'm like playing basically I have like a March Madness basketball.

ball bracket in my room of like 25 books I have on the floor being like now which of you gets to go you know that's hilarious that would be funny if you like took pictures at like each stage that you like narrow it down honestly I think I might make I've been pretty absent on TikTok but I was thinking that might be a fun TikTok series to be like round one of which books go to Egypt. Yes. Yeah. I would watch. Okay.

But yeah. Yeah, you can kind of pair your book experience with your physical one. Totally, totally, totally, which maybe doesn't speak necessarily to empathy except to be like, as you pointed out, the idea of sort of like using stories to facilitate better understanding of like a culture or a place or like a moment in time. I think is like that's like the basis of like all literature and film. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Well, do you have some books?

that inspired empathy in you? I do. The first ones that came to mind, I'm pretty sure we talked about in a different episode, but truly, yeah, truly the Dear America series of books when I was a kid was like, and they were all, you know, as I can see it like lighting up on your face,

for anyone unaware, they were kind of like fake diaries written from the perspective of a young woman in a certain moment in time. And sometimes they would be famous people. Like I remember they had a whole like royal series where it would be like Princess Elizabeth, who grows up to be Queen Elizabeth I first. And like her diary is like a 12 year old.

The one that I was thinking of that really stuck with me was there was a young woman who was like a servant on the Titanic. And like so they were just kind of these like really interesting historical fiction, but kind of like deep vehicles into what somebody's imagined life or world would have been like at that time. And I just remember having my mind blown because you'd be like, this girl was basically a mail order bride for like a steelworker in Pennsylvania in the 1800s. And she was on the Titanic and somebody else was like colonial. And there was an enslaved person. And like it was just all these different sort of like insights into young women who

were the same age as me, but very different than me. And I found that to be like crazy effective for like broadening my understanding of people and yeah. experiences. I loved those. books so much. They were so good. I saw a reel of it or something recently and sent it to someone who I thought like for sure would have read them and they were like, I don't know what these are. So now I need to find it and send it to you. Yeah. You remember with me. Oh, please. I had like a bitchen library of them at one point because they all looked very similar. They were just like different colored like covers and I just like, here we go. You know, that was that was bookshelf wealth when you were a kid. Yes. Yes, it was. Oh, my.

my gosh and what was the other i feel like oh at me it's he drew i had like all the yellow yes yellow spines totally totally those were great oh yeah yeah i loved it yeah loved it well mine is a little different my first one but in in speaking about like learning more about a community um hurt for me by heather levy is like i love the way she um approached this book. So the book is basically about Ray Dixon, who is lucky to be alive. And 15 years ago, she survived being trafficked and abused, escaping her captors to reclaim her life. Now she's running a thriving business with her best friend, raising a teenage daughter on her own. Ray's finally in control literally. As Mistress V, Ray is the one calling the shots,

catering to Oklahoma City's elite in her private dungeon, which fronts is a spa. But when a client goes missing, Ray's world spins out of control. Detective Clearwater shows up at the spa, sparking panic when he asks questions about the risk exposing, when he asks questions of that risk exposing Ray's true business. After several young women from her underground community disappear, too, Ray spots a chillingly familiar pattern. Together, she and Detective Clearwater must find answers before more lives are destroyed, including those they love. and she just approaches the like BDSM community in such a like informative and empathetic and just like also neutral would be what I would also say neutral way and so you really can get to know more about the

community by reading it but it's also like a fantastically plotted thriller it so is I'm so glad you mention that book. I mean, that book is so good. It's like all things. It's sexy. It's titillating. It's informative. It's about trauma. It's a great pace thriller. Like, Heather is so great. She was one of my pitch wars mentees and she's just like a fabulous writer and like is so unafraid of tackling thorny topics like this. Like this could easily be something that people are, you know, are reluctant to pick up or might have judgment about. And she makes like the world so accessible and like, fascinating and like it's so great and she did that with her first book too walking through needles which is basically like also the story about a young woman who has went through some like really traumatic

stuff in her childhood but like Heather just kind of takes these unconventional angles at stuff which I think is like such a great way when we're talking about empathy to be like it's not it feels very true to lived experiences and not necessarily like cultural perceptions of what these things might be if that makes sense yeah and not. And not. like a shtick for the book. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Oh, great pick. Thanks. I loved, I really loved that one. I know. She's great. And okay, are you aware? So hurt for me, great title. She comes up with her book's title first. She like finds a title in her mind and then like a ruminates on it and like eventually a story comes. And I was like, Heather, I didn't know that. I didn't even know

that was an option. That's not how my brain works. Like, and she said that. I was on a book event with her and she said that and I was like, what? Like, you're a marvel. You're just like extraordinary. What are you talking about? That is so cool. Isn't that cool? Yeah. Good for her. Yeah. She has really great titles. I can't remember her one that's, her next book, I think is called This Violent Heart or something like that violent. Yeah. And it's another great title. I mean, truly, the woman's a machine. She is.

I love her hair. I know. She's very cool. She's seriously the coolest. She is extremely cool. Yes, for sure. I have another pick. It's so funny.

So we start this conversation talking about how thrillers and romance novels encourage empathy, but a lot of my picks are not those. But I read up. It's not news fiction. And so we'll count it. True. Yeah. So I read a book called Dear Dickhead this summer by Virginie DePont. She's a French writer.

It's a French book in translation. And it's an epistolary novel told mostly between emails and blog posts between these kind of three central characters. There's a woman who's like an aging actress. There's a young, there's a man who's a writer who knew. the actress when she was young and was kind of like looked up to her and thought she was so sexy. And then there's a young woman who worked in publishing who has been just kind of terrorized by the male writer. And it's it's a fascinating book. I am a person who in general

supports women's rights and women's wrongs, meaning like, you know, not a lot of empathy necessarily for the me tutors. Yeah. But this book kind of managed to have a really really interesting look at the way that humans can influence each other in all sorts of different directions and was very empathetic in real ways to all of its characters, all of whom were flawed, some to various degrees, like, you know, the guy who kind of, uh, so with, without giving too much away. So he, he basically believes that he's in love with this young woman and kind of doesn't necessarily physically assault her so much as emotionally and kind of verbally and it's like won't take no for an answer. Why won't you date me? I'll kill myself

if you don't date me all this like really truly horrific traumatic stuff. But it kind of the book is like about the way that all of these characters kind of influence and shape each other in these experiences going forward. And I came out of it just being like what an interesting, complicated view of humanity that's, I would say, ultimately optimistic without leaving easy answers for anybody. It wasn't like, it was like, oh, this guy is such a good guy, but it was like, what if people are capable of change, which I think people are, but they have to really work at it. But like, what if people are capable of change? And like, what if people are capable of change in the way that we like influence and shape each other is a big part of that change? And like, it was just, it was just a book where

I can't remember the last time I started a book and like deeply disliked and hated a character. and by the end, maybe didn't love him, but was like my feelings had shifted so much. And it felt very real. And it was, yeah. And it was, it was a interesting, complicated, nuanced thorny book. And really glad I read it in very worthwhile. Yeah, for sure, for sure, right? Yeah.

That's really cool. I love that when the characters are that dynamic. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah. Yes, dynamic is the word. I hope you're enjoying this episode of Book Wild, and if you are, could I ask you a favor? Could you go and rate and review this podcast and whatever platform you're listening? Ratings and reviews make the biggest difference in discoverability of the podcast, and I definitely want to find all of our fellow thriller readers out there. So if you could go rate the podcast and leave a short review, that would make a huge difference. Thank you, and let's get back to the show. That reminds me of one of mine, because it, for similar reasons, felt really empathetic. for me. And it's Daisy Jones in the Six by Taylor Jenkins' read. Because like the gist of it is the book is told in like documentary form. So you're like reading the transcription from basically a documentary.

But because it's done that way, you are kind of getting the like removed God view almost where you're seeing the differences in some of their stories, even when they're telling the same story or like the same moment is a little different from each of them. But the other thing, it really, it really deals with is kind of what you were talking about. There are some characters where you're like, man, he is not a good guy. And then you're like, yep, he kind of is. Right. And, and like, then everything gets really complicated with their, everyone's relationship, all seven of them. And so kind of what you were saying, so much of their experiences together end up like shaping their lives in different ways. And then I wish I could kind of venture into spoiler the territory.

But the ending just has like such cool nuance, I guess is what I'm trying to say. There's like a whole other level of like you like love and respect to this other character so much at the end. It's just so complicated. Totally. Totally. And I'm with you. I want to talk about the ending with you, but we'll have to do that offline. But like it, I was, uh, I was really pleasantly surprised by the ending that it went in the direction it did because it felt like a way to honor all of the characters without it. Yeah, it was, it was really beautiful. And I totally agree. And I actually feel like Taylor Jenkins read. I think that's maybe part of the reason so many people connect with her stuff is the like empathy she has. has for these characters, the way that she creates characters who are complex and have many different, and like that in some way, all of her stories are about diving more deeply into this person than you see at first glance.

Yeah. And I think that that's really cool. And like, I think that's why people respond to them so well. I think so, too. Yeah. I sobbed. I sobbed my way through the end of that book. That one would have been here with me out.

For sure, both of those. And I cried at Carrie Soto, too. I really liked Carrie Soto. That one I cried even longer, I think. It's so good. I think, I mean, obviously I have challengers goggles on with anything now or tennis related. But like, for my money, I think Carrie Soto is her most, like, technically excellent book. Like, the way that she wrote it is just so great.

It is. Yeah. I have one that's kind of on that same theme, which is, I really just like, I don't know, I guess part of my life the last couple of years has been like, how can I shoehorn this book into conversations? But I know you read it and enjoyed it. And I'm curious to talk more about it. The Force of Such Beauty by Barbara Borland, which is basically like, has a plot to it,

but really is kind of, I would say, like a book that's a deep character study. Yes. Would you agree with that? Yeah. It just is like you dive really deeply into it. the skin of this person who is somebody who's seen a lot and also has a lot of privilege, which I think can be a hard place to like empathize as a reader to be like, okay, so you're the crown princess, you know, like rough life. But like she does it in such an interesting way and

makes that character so fully human. I am somebody who at this point in time is more or less, are you good? Yeah, I'm good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. More or less. like sort of neutral on Megan Markle. I think she, um, I think she got a lot of racist, press and treatment in the UK, and I'm sure in America too. And I'm also a little bit sort of like, okay, you guys need to sit down and take a back seat for a little bit, like just, but, but which is all of which is to say, though, something about reading that book, even though it's not exactly the experience of, um, Megan Markle really kind of was like, oh, God, I could see all the downsides of having all this privilege and of kind of living in this fishbowl and this way and the sort of

like awfulness of all of that. So that was a book that really I think was great on that level for me too. Yeah. And it does it does the empathy like that in the yeah, poor little rich girl. And it empathizes into that and like how trapped you are typically if you are a part of royalty or really probably any government like. Yeah. Politicians kids probably feel somewhat similar sometimes. But it also has like, because she was an Olympic athlete, which is like seems like such a random detail when you like read it. But she ran like all the time. And then it has an injury, something related to her hip, I think. And the nature of it makes her body hurt kind of all the time for the rest of her life. Yeah. And so you also like feel her physical. You have a lot of

empathy for people who live with pain long term is like the other thing that stood out to me. Totally. Totally. That's a really good point too. I hadn't even thought about that aspect of it, but you're right. Like that she's like driven her body to perfection, but also like destroyed it at the same time and like lives with those consequences constantly. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's just just like how like being on a plane she's like nervous to be on a plane because she can't stretch enough in her. muscles just I also put a lot of attention into my muscles so like some of it too I was just like oh man totally like I'm feeling this while I'm reading it yeah for sure for sure it's very like it's a visceral read in a lot of ways it really is yeah whatever sorcery Barbara Borland like her prose just feels very alive to me and I think that's part of it too is like you really feel like you're with a real person and I think that anytime a writer can do that it expands your

empathy just because like as you were saying at the top of our talk like you're in somebody's head for however long it is you're reading it's how can you not start to take on their perspective yeah yeah well my next one is the push by ashley audering nice so also as someone who's never like okay i am very aware that i could wake up 10 years from now and be like i do want to be baby. Sure. So I'm not saying that I can't change my mind, but from someone who hasn't really been interested in that at any point, this is like this book will make you too scared to ever have kids. Oh, no. Oh, you haven't, you haven't read this. Okay. I haven't, no. Okay. So, but the empathy of like motherhood and how terrifying it would be if,

your child had really bad behavioral issues. Like, it's like such a big part of the suspense. And so you have all this empathy for her as a mother. Yeah. And like the situation. So this one, basically, Blythe is determined that she'll be the warm, comforting mother to her new baby, Violet that she herself never had.

But in the thick of motherhood's exhausting early days, Blithe becomes convinced that something is wrong with her daughter. she doesn't behave like most children do, or is it all in Blithe's head. Her husband, Fox, says she's imagining things. The more Fox dismisses her fears, the more Blithe begins to question her own sanity, and the more we begin to question what Blithe is telling us about her life as well. Then their son, Sam is born, and with him, Blithe has the blissful connection she'd always imagined with her child. Even Violet seems to love her little brother. But when life as they know it has changed in an instant, the devastating fallout forces blithe to face the truth.

It is so good, but like it is bleak and harrowing. But like she also does all this really fascinating stuff with like bouncing back to her mother. And then you're trying to be a better mother. And then, but your kid like might be kind of sadistic. Like what do you do? So you just feel all the feeling. things all the way through this. And I don't think it's a, yeah, it says her husband Fox says she's imagining things.

So then you get the husband like gaslighting her and you're just like, what's the truth? Totally. Totally. And that like there's so many, it's so interesting because that's such a rich ground. And you see it in things, right? Like Rosemary's baby is very, like, what do you do if the person you love is like gaslighting you about like your family and like, especially as the mom where you're supposed to be like such an influence on your kids and you know them better?

and then like all the weight that comes with like the things we put on motherhood like the weight of it all like i can't that that book may be too real for me that that might be why i partially haven't picked it up this day it is like you're just like oh my gosh yeah her writing i appreciate her writing so much i interviewed her i have a book back there about the whispers and i like asked what drew her writing about motherhood and thrillers. And I love that her answer is basically like motherhood is like motherhood is terrifying. That's why. Yeah, for sure it is. I don't have kids and I find it terrifying. Yeah. I know. I know. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good one. So read it your own risk, but it is, it's like an emotionally poignant masterpiece. Totally. Totally. That's a good one.

On the subject of motherhood and the terrifyingness of it, uh, I would say one, one of the books that I would say increased empathy. But it's, it's this book, but I guess it's also this kind of type of book. It's a book called Little Deaths by Emma Flint. And it is a retelling of a true story of a woman named, I'm just looking at up right now. I think her name is Alice Crimmons from the 1950s who was convicted of murdering her two children, who basically go missing in the middle of the night and then wind up dead in this sort of like Brooklyn neighborhood. And it's, She was, you know, 1950s and she's kind of a younger woman. She's attractive and she's shown, you know, putting kind of like an Amanda Knox type

thing where it's like her behavior after her children die, people deemed to be inappropriate social behavior, which is to say like kind of crazy because who amongst us knows how you would behave in like the face of some of the worst tragedy. You know what I mean? I just don't think it's necessarily fair to say like, you're not behaving the way that I think I would, you know, and you're like, well, okay. So this book is kind of a retelling from her point of view of what may or may not have happened in her experiences. And I am just a big fan of books like that or even movies like I-Tanya or something, which takes a figure that we think

we know one true public story about and examines it from different angles because of course, we can't ever know what somebody's actual experience is like. And even reading that book, I don't know that that's what her experience was like. But just, I think, opening the space to imagine that it may look different than the narrative that we've been told, I think is valuable, like empathetic work for fiction and film to do. Yes, it is because it's just, like, kind of like there's two sides and there's, then there's the truth kind of stuff is like everything's going to, like, the truth is going to be some amalgamation of like what both people experienced. Totally. Truth is subjective. Right. Right. Truth is subjective.

never moving and who gets to say, you know, something can be true for me, but it doesn't mean it's true for the world and like all these. And I think the, the, like, part of the beauty of the empathy that fiction can bestow is sort of like having to wrestle with those complexities and ways that like a lot of other things want to make it more narrow. And I think the wider we can make that conversation, it makes things messier, but it probably makes it more true to like life and empathy. A little more fair too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. well my next one um i remember talking with kelly garrett about this too but missing white woman yes one um so like the opening scene is incredibly suspenseful and it's because the main

character is traveling to a town she hasn't been to before and she's black and entering an Airbnb late at night and like feels like there's kind of a white woman behind her like keeping an eye on her so you get right into the first chapter of like just walking into an Airbnb is a different experience for a black woman than it would be for me and there's like suspense all just because of like her identity and who she is so and that and that carries through the book where it's like um basically she goes on vacation with her boyfriend for just like a three-night thing. And on the second night, basically, she wakes up and her boyfriend's not there. And there's a dead white woman at the bottom of

her stairs. And she's a woman who's been like highly publicized on TikTok and like she's a missing white woman. So everyone is obsessed with who she is. And so it's not that the story's not about figuring out what happened to this woman. But, A lot of the suspense is the fact that she's a black woman in a city where she knows no one and she's the only one in the house when this happened. And like she needs to essentially clear her name because she doesn't feel like anyone is going to do it for her. So I feel like it's just such a good example for like anyone who doesn't live that. You're going to have like a whole other level of empathy for that experience being so much different.

Totally. Totally agree. And I love that Kelly with that book, I mean, she's writing a great thriller. And she's also like tackling head on the whole missing white woman phenomenon. Like, you know, when you're talking, I'm remembering Gabby Petito and all these different people where it's like it's not that I don't want white women to be publicized when they go missing. But you want all women, all people when they go missing or experience violence to get that same level of publicity is like what I think we should be striving for. And I love that she's kind of tackling head on the sort of. of like the true disparities of that, that like white women actually are like not as likely to be

victimized as many other groups. And yet so many books, my own included, often deal with that. Yeah. And it's, I don't know. And I love, I love that. Kelly is so great. Kelly is like, such a great writer on so many levels. You know what I mean? Like she's playing four dimensional chess out there. She is. Yeah. It's great. I loved it. I also. love when people include like social media because it has such a big influence on stuff like that. So like she used TikTok in a really cool way in the book. Totally. And like, yeah, I don't know.

It's interesting. Social media has like become this thing for like missing people or like true crime where people want to get involved. And I think that is such an interesting double sword, double edge sort of like that can be good and that can also be bad. You know? And like, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's what I talked with Rachel McGuire on the surface. That's their book really does it really well where they're showing like how these like

armchair detectives like get in the way. Yeah. But then in another book you're like, oh, they're vigilante and that's all good. So like they're just totally different levels. Totally. Or there's like, you know, yeah, you hear about stories and like this maybe even predates social media, but like where they publicize it and all of a sudden then the cops get like, which first of all, I'm not saying this like I think the cops are.

the solve rights for murderers are frighteningly low in this country, especially depending on like which marginalized group you fall into. But like you'll see cases where something gets publicized and all of a sudden then they have like 5,000 tips they have to wade through. And like that whole time that they're like vetting that, the case is getting colder and colder because most of those are not going to be worth any. You know what I mean? It just it becomes this interesting phenomenon of publicizing a case is often

a best chance to help it get solved and also can work against it in very specific interesting ways, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's catch 22. So I have another one too. Which is an interesting one. The reformatory by Tanana Reeve Dewey. Have you read it? No, I know the cover, but no, I haven't read it. It's great. And it's based on many real places that exist in the United States that I knew about, but I didn't know as much about the history until I read this book and then I started looking into it. And Tananariv Duay actually had an uncle who was sent to a reformatory, which was basically a place where young boys of color, specifically black boys or white boys who maybe had behavior.

behavioral issues. Like it was, it's one of those places where it was like, theoretically it was a reform school. So you went there if you had behavioral issues. But a lot of things got shoved into what was a behavioral issue. Some of it might have just been like being black in public, you know, or like different things where it's like, okay, that's really just like an excuse to use a vehicle. It's racism and like all these different things. And so they would go there and had we have found out in the last like 10 or 15 years that there were like mass graves of boys who died there and were just like left and buried. And so. this book I was trying to think about how to frame this when I'm reading it because I think when we talk about empathy, we're often talking about the ability to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. And I wouldn't say it's fair for me as a white woman to have read that book and be like, I now understand some more about racism. But it really was more about getting this deep look at a life that I don't live and that like that it made more real to me than just reading a history book like we talked about. some of these experiences and like thinking how how important it is to have books like the reformatory out there, which first of all, it's just like a great ghost story and spooky and a thriller and wonderful, but also is like publicizing a corner of American history that I think we would often rather shove in a closet and not look at. And I don't think that's the right thing to do either. So that book, I think for me is a book that's maybe empathy is the right word or maybe it isn't, but just sort of expanding my knowledge and understanding of a piece of history and an experience

that I don't have. Yeah. Your dog agrees. She said it real good. No, I totally agree. That quote is going to stick with me forever. The idea of like the historian tells you what happens and then the novelist tells you how it felt. Yeah.

It's just. And it just dovetailed so well with empathy as a discussion. Totally. But it is. You do when you're like in that person's brain for again like eight, 10, however many hours, you are experiencing it more than just understanding that bad things happened to a different race than you in the past. Totally.

It's like it's animating it. It's walking around inside your skin in a different way. Yeah. And that's why I think it's like so important that we have more stories so that we have more stories so that we can like do that more and more frequently and then hopefully bring that back into our real lives. Yeah. My next one actually really pairs well with that. But some of it I can't talk about why because of spoilers, but it's it's adjacent. And it's did you hear about Kitty Car? And if you've listened to this podcast for the last three years, you have heard about her. You have in fact

heard about Kitty Carr, yes. I can't stop talking about her. But it's by Crystal Smith-Paul. And it is about basically Elise St. John in the present. She's a celebrity. And she and her, I can't remember or her other sisters. Maybe I should just read this so I don't spoil it. When Kitty Car Tate, a white icon of the silver screen dies and bequeathes her multi-million dollar estate to the St. John's sisters. Three young, wealthy, black women, it prompts questions, lots of questions. A celebrity in her own right, Elise St. John, would rather focus on sorting out Kitty's affairs than deal with the press. But what she discovers in one of Kitty's journals rocks her world harder than any other brewing scandal could. And between a cheating fiancé and the fallout from a

controversial social media post, there are plenty. The truth behind Kitty's assent to stardom from her beginnings in the segregated south, threatens to expose a web of unexpected family ties, debts owed, and debatable crimes that could with one pole unravel the all-American fabric of the St. John's sisters and those closest to them. As Elise digs deeper into Kitty's past, she must also turn the lens upon herself,

confronting the gifts and burdens of her own choices and the power that the secrets of the dead hold over the living. So it spans multiple generations. you go back into, I don't know how far back you go now at this way, but you go, I feel like it's like the 40s, the 50s, I think. I don't know. But you're following the story of a black woman at present and a black woman in the past and how some things come to converge.

But as another thing, we're like, reading what it was like to be treated the way they were for so long. Like you feel it differently when you read it through a story. And you're like, wow, like this is legit how someone had to exist. And like these are the sacrifices they had to make. And it really, when I read it, I also talked about how like it really explores like when you're from a minority group or a group that no one cares about or cares less about. like how hard it is to want to want more for yourself and to still like go out there and try to get it.

Like I feel like you have even more empathy for how much harder it is to do that. Totally. Totally. Beautifully said. And like we talked about earlier, the value of representation of being able to see yourself in other stories. And like even in fiction, I think that that's really important, you know? Yeah. And to acknowledge too that like due to like white supremacy, it feels like the default is like white characters.

But like that isn't the default. That's just a perspective. Right. Like in the more perspectives we have, ideally the more we're kind of like unpacking and unthreading that. But like it's not that being white is the default position in America. It's just that's been like elevated, you know, as what it is. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I have one more pick that also kind of speaks to that theme, which is called Say Hello to My Little Friend by Janine Capo Cruset. And it is the story of a young man who was a refugee from Cuba with his mother, came on a raft when he was a kid. And he's like decided that his model for masculinity is going to be Scarface. and as he grows up,

which there's like so many levels to unpack there. And then it's also there's a point of view from the oldest living whale in captivity down in Florida, like near where this guy is living. And so it just kind of like examines the cultural, societal and like actual cages that people exist in. Like there's beautifully drawn parallels between this young man who's both. comes from a marginalized group background and also like doesn't have a lot of like his the role model he can look to for like how to be a man and his society is Scarface, which is like a terrible role model.

That's not. Yeah. And that the ways that you're kind of like written into these stories that aren't the stories you would choose to live, but others have sort of chosen for you or that like there aren't enough stories to build something else. And you see it with him. you see it with the Lolita, the whale who's in captivity. I mean, it just, it's like, it's a very interesting book. I haven't read anything like it in a long time and it's funny and dark and

heartbreaking. Like I got to a point where I didn't want to finish the book because I could see what was coming. And I was like, I don't want to, I don't want to live this. And yet it felt very important and beautiful to get there. And I don't know. It's a really, really well done, interesting heartbreaking book. Yeah. I do want to read. that one. It feels like it's it would maybe scratch the part of me that liked made for love. Yes.

In some ways. Just kind of Yeah. It has not quite as much of that quirkiness but it does have some of it for sure. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, my final one, this is to keep it short because

I think I said this in an episode that's for a couple weeks, but it's going to, I don't know. Some people may have heard this already chronologically, but to keep a really long story short, I last Monday went on to interview an author, like got logged into the studio. And another author's name popped up in it. And I was like, I've never had this happen before. Oh, no.

So I was expecting Emma Bamford, who I actually did just end up, I did end up connecting with her. And I, and Marjean Kamali showed up in my. studio and i was like um well i'll just accept it i'm like reading the synopsis really quickly yeah and so i told her i was like i have not read your book i i'm so sorry i was expecting someone else i've never had this happen and i was like so we could either just do an interview because like i can talk to you about it or um i was just saying like i can't if you want to go ahead like since you're here and she was like uh i feel like your your interview would be a lot better if you read my book. And I was like, it would be. And she was like, okay, so like, could you, could you go ahead and

read it? I'm like, yeah, let's do it. So that was like this fun kismet of like just meeting someone just and it just happened to be her publicist had multiple people's calendars and just put it on hers. Got it. Now we met. Well, that's kind of amazing. And also, what a terrifying nightmare to be like, oh my god as somebody who's like interviewed people before i would just be like yeah i'm like i haven't read it i haven't even read this analysis oh no um and now it's been like so huge in the way that it even affected this conversation because that quote about the novelist showing you how it makes you feel was so fascinating to me and stuck with me the whole time i was reading this book um and so But I should probably just read the synopsis.

So much happens. In 1950s, Tehran, seven-year-old Ellie lives in grand comfort until the untimely death of her father, forcing Ellie and her mother to move to a tiny home downtown. Lonely and bearing the brunt of her mother's endless grievances, Ellie dreams of a friend to alleviate her isolation. Luckily, on the first day of school, she meets Homa, a kind, passionate girl with a brave, irrepressible spirit. Together, the two girls play games, learn to cook in the stone kitchen of Homa's warm home, wander through the colorful stalls of the grand bazaar, and share their ambitions for

becoming lion women. But their happiness is disturbed when Ellie and her mother are afforded the opportunity to return to their previous bourgeois life. Now a popular student at the best girls high school in Iran, Ellie's memories of Homa begin to fade. Fade. Years later, however, her sudden reappearance and Ellie's privileged world alters the course of both of their lives. Together, the two young women come of age and pursue their own goals for meaningful futures, but as the political turmoil in Iran builds to a breaking point, one earth's shattering betrayal will have enormous consequences. This book is like, you'd want to talk about empathy. I think it's why I was exhausted by the time I read it because you just feel.

feel it for everyone in the story and what they're going through. And it like, I'm just going to admit, I did not know that it was new that women lost their rights in Iran and Tehran. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I didn't know that the 50s and 60s looked pretty similar to the rest of what was happening in the rest of the world. Yeah. So even that was just like talking about an empathetic experience. like imagining just losing your rights, like, because some religious fundamentalists take over. Oh, you mean, like, what might be happening in America? I was about to say it. And honestly, it was a little creepy reading it right now.

Yeah. Like, oh, no. Like Project 2025 vibes. Okay. Yeah. Like, if you don't have the kids, you don't get as many votes vibes. Like, oh, my goodness. Yeah.

Yep. It was. That was part part of it. I was like, oh, no, this is like good to remember that it can just go away. Like, we, we can't assume that it won't necessarily. 100%. And that book sounds amazing and I want to read it. It's so good. Yeah, I got to read it. But I'm with you. That's so terrifying and also like such a good reminder that like, yeah, we've taken some of these things for granted because like it's always been true in your in my lifetime that like women have had the right to vote in America. But that doesn't mean we should ever. stop fighting for that. Yeah. And Homa is one of my favorite characters ever. I deeply, deeply love how unapologetic she is and just, like, passionate and authentic. It's just she's, she's a beautiful character.

Mm-hmm. That's lovely. I cried a lot of, I cried all in this one, too. That reminds, that reminds me a little bit of, I have one more pick too, but, and this isn't it. But maybe my first real brush with like the deep empathy that you can, that a story can teach you was when I was, I think in second grade, we had like a traveling theater troupe come and performed the story of Sadako and the thousand paper cranes.

Are you familiar with this tearjerker? No, I'm not. Oh, God. Okay. So I'm going to try to explain it and I may or may not cry. Like that's where we're at with the story for me. Yeah. So it's the story of, and it's based on a true story, which is the truly horrifying part.

This little girl, Sadako, who survives the United States bombing Japan using the nuclear bombs. But she survives it. And as she's, I don't know how old she is, maybe eight or nine in the thing, but goes on to find out that she has leukemia from the radiation of the blast. And the story is she finds out that there's this like tradition that if you make a thousand paper cranes, oh no, you can ask for a wish and it can be granted. And she gets to like her wishes that she's going to survive. And she gets to like 950 and dies. And I lost my shit. Devastated.

Devastated. And so it's like the community comes forward and finishes the cranes for her after she's died. And it's this beautiful story of like, resilient. and like the horror of this and all these different things, I got set home from school because I could not stop crying the rest of the day. I, what I remember, yeah,

I remember my teacher. Like, I just remember, like, doing a workshop sheet and I'm just, like, crying, not like hysterical, but like I'm doing the math worksheets,

but just like tears, just like a spigot. And my teacher being like, honey, what's wrong? And I was like, Zidago in the crades. And like my,

I remember, too, she had to give this like little speech to our class and was like, some kids are more sensitive than others and we shouldn't tease them about it. So presumably somebody was making fun of me. But like eventually they just called my mom and they're like, she's a mess. You got to take her home. Just take her home. Oh my God. Just the idea that you could like, I think it also was like, I mean, it's objectively a sad story. And I don't think I was like, I don't think I was obviously not dealing with like the US ramifications of it at age seven or eight or

whatever. But like I think it was like the first time mortality was real to me really as a kid. the idea that like she could have worked so hard and gotten so close and still doesn't achieve. I just, I was like, who destroyed, emotionally destroyed, still tear up when I talk about it. That one really touched something deep inside. That was new foster for me. Oh, God. I was two years old and my parents took, or I think someone took me. And like literally they had to take me out of the theater because I was just wailing.

Yes. It's so traumatic. I mean, that he's hanging there and then scar and then just the like slow-mo. Same thing. You can get that close and you won't save the most important person in your life. Totally. Oh, God, so brutal. Yeah.

Disney was rough on us. They weren't given us inside out. They were given us dead parents. That's true. Disney was like your parents will die anytime now. A stampede is coming. Like they were very, yeah. But I mean, and it's funny because you're right.

Like Pixar now, like there's like stories and anecdotes about the way that Pixar is actually engineered to make you emotional like the things that they do. But I agree. It's sort of different. It's sort of like more wholesome. I feel like when we were kids. Yeah. Excuse me. Disney was like, we're going to murder your family.

And then the story starts. And you were just like, oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Bimba loses his dad. Simba loses his dad.

I saw something that. was like Cinderella is enslaved. Totally. For sure, at least like surf for, you know, like, what did they call it when it was like you had to be a servant for like seven years or whatever, you know what I mean? Like for sure. Like it was, yeah, indentured servitude for sure. Yeah, you're right.

And like, now they have really great story arcs that help you understand your feelings. Totally. And like if you're emotional, it's like, oh, it's the value of family or like tradition and like all this other stuff. It's not just like that thing we've taught you to love dead now. But you can buy a stuffed animal of it. Here you go. Totally.

Totally. Oh, so good. I know. I know. Disney, man. Disney. So I have another book, although maybe the Sadako and the paper cranes, but I'm curious. I'm going to mention it because you might have read it too.

And I haven't read it in so long. but I do remember it being very impactful for me. It's a book called Star Girl by Jerry Spinelli. Did you ever read this? I'll read the synopsis. It's a celebration of nonconformity, a tense emotional tale about the fleeting, cruel nature of popularity, and the thrill and inspiration of first love. Leo Borlock follows the unspoken rule at Micah Area High School. Don't stand out under any circumstances.

Then Stargirl arrives at Mikea. Mika High and everything changes for Leo and the entire school. After 15 years of homeschooling, Star Star Girl bursts into the 10th grade and an explosion of color and a clatter of ukulele music enchanting the mica student body. But the delicate scales of popularity suddenly shift, and Stargirl is shunned for everything that makes her different. Somewhere in the midst of Stargirl's arrival and rise and fall, normal Leo Blerlock has tumbled into love with her. And a celebration of nonconformity, Jerry Spinelli weaves a tense emotional tale about the fleeting, cruel, nature of popularity and the thrill and inspiration of true love. And it's, it's a book that's really kind of about bullying and like the way that like if you let it, like society will try to diminish you. But without feeling like an issues book, or at least I don't remember it feeling that that way. Because you know there are books like that where it's like bullying is bad and we'll show you why. And I think those books are important and probably valuable exercises. empathy. But this one, I just remember feeling so, again, alive and so devastated by the ending,

which I won't spoil for anyone, even though this book is, you know, middle grade YA and has been out for like 20 years. But like, there's just, it was just something that felt so real. Maybe because at the time I was reading it, it was very real concerns about like, how do you fit in and make friends at a time when most people are trying not to rock the boat while also not losing your authentic self. And there was something so deep and real and difficult about that. And the book kind of does not pull any punches with it. It was beautiful. So once I looked it up, I was like, oh, the cover. I was like, oh, I did read this. Like, I don't remember enough of it. But like, I definitely had this book on my bookshelf.

It was everywhere for a hot minute. I remember. But when I saw the cover, I was like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's from 2000. Yes. 24 years ago, which that's frightening. No. It's not, people just not dwell on that.

To the side. That one goes away. No, I love that, though. And I feel like because that experience gets so strong, it's so potent when you're, a teen. That's why it fits really well there. But then when I'm still thinking about it, it's still even in adulthood, you're trying not to rock the boat, but also be yourself. Totally. It's timeless. Totally. It really is. Right. It's not like we fix it when you get into adulthood. I have a friend who has a theory and I personally believe it that most of your

adulthood is just trying to get back to who you were when you were like 10 years old. That like you're just trying to like, who was that authentic self that I like shoved away, you know? yes yes yeah oh my gosh that was like false selves was like our first year of therapy it was like oh totally what have i constructed yes yes yeah yeah well speaking of therapy my last one is since she's been gone by sautie schwartz um so losing her mother to a hit and run at age 15 through Beatrice Beans Bennett's life into turmoil. Breft, she developed a life-threatening eating disorder and went through a challenging recovery process, which paved the way for her work.

I have hiccups. Oh, no. As a clinical psychologist decades later, when a new patient arrives at her office and insists that Bean's mother is still alive and in danger, Bean's is forced to revisit her past in order to uncover the truth. she learns the patient is a member of a notorious family that owns a drug company largely responsible for the national opioid epidemic and that her mother was once tangled in their web in a race against time and her mother's assailants while once again facing the disorder she thought she put behind her beans discovers that like herself her mother had a devastating secret fascinating So much going on with this one. Yeah.

She like in the past year even like you go to like a treatment facility like she goes to a treatment facility in a long time of it is spent there. And the like the amount of pain you feel with the girls like the character she even writes in the treatment facility. like you just feel you feel how much they want to be skinny like super skinny you just feel how badly they want it and there are even a couple examples of like things that they would do to like be able to not eat like sneak around some of them are devastating like there's one that's just still stuck in my mind. So a lot of empathy for people who struggle with eating disorders, how they see themselves. You really live that experience. And the author is a therapist who has helped girls through that. So it's just so emotional. But it's also this thriller. Like the present is the thriller. And then

the past is like learning about her eating disorder as a kid. So it's really cool. And taking down the like it sounds like a surrogate for the sackler's that family that's like yeah yeah yeah that sounds great she's so cool too she's amazing all right i got to read that one putting it on my two read list yeah it's awesome that's so many empathetic books or i know i know i know and like a whole and a whole list of things we i'm sure we could keep talking about but also yeah like like to some degree, I think almost all fiction, you know, as we kind of said, like, just the idea of putting yourself in somebody else's perspective in shoes has like, I think, emotional benefits. It does.

Yeah. I agree.