Bookwild - How the NYC Reagan 80s Taught America to Excuse Violence: Heather Ann Thompson's Fear and Fury

Episode Date: January 27, 2026

This week, I talk with historian Heather Ann Thompson about her new non-fiction Fear and Fury, which traces how the 1984 Bernie Goetz subway shooting became a flashpoint for the Reagan-era rollback of public investment, the rise of punitive policing, and the normalization of white vigilantism.Moving between the lived experiences of the four Black teenagers who were shot and the political, media, and economic forces that quickly transformed Goetz into a folk hero, Thompson shows how fear was deliberately manufactured and redirected away from structural inequality and toward racialized scapegoats.We compare 1980s New York to the present moment—drawing lines to media sensationalism, carceral logic, and modern cases of state and vigilante violence—while insisting that this history is neither accidental nor inevitable. By centering the long-term human cost borne by the victims and their families, the conversation ultimately argues that understanding how white rage was cultivated is essential to imagining a more just future.Fear and Fury: The Reagan Eighties, the Bernie Goetz Shootings, and the Rebirth of White Rage SynopsisOn December 22, 1984, white New Yorker Bernhard Goetz shot four Black teenagers at point-blank in a New York City subway car. Goetz slipped into the subway tunnels undetected, fleeing the city to evade capture. From the moment Goetz turned himself in, the narrative surrounding the shooting became a matter of extraordinary debate, igniting public outcry and capturing the attention of the nation.While Goetz's guilt was never in question, media outlets sensationalized the event, redirecting public ire toward the victims themselves. In the end, it would take two grand juries and a civil suit to achieve justice on behalf of the four Black teenagers. For some, Goetz would go on to become a national hero, inciting a disturbing new chapter in American history. This brutal act revealed a white rage and resentment much deeper, larger, and more insidious than the actions of Bernie Goetz himself. Intensified by politicians and tabloid media, it would lead a stunning number of white Americans to celebrate vigilantism as a fully legitimate means for addressing racial fear, fracturing American race relations.Follow Heather here Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with Heather Ann Thompson about her new nonfiction book, Fear and Fury, Bernie Gett, the Reagan 80s, and the rebirth of white rage. And boy, does it explain a lot of where we are today. As you can kind of tell from the title, it focuses on subway shootings that happened in the 80s by a man named Bernie Gets. And it really has a lot of similarities to what we're seeing right now. On December 26, Second, 1984, white New Yorker Bernard Getz shot four black teenagers at point-blank range in a New York City subway car. Gets slipped into the subway tunnels undetected, fleeing the city to evade capture. For the moment Gets turned himself in, the narratives surrounding the shooting became a matter of extraordinary debate, igniting public outcry and capturing the attention of the nation.

While Gets' guilt was never in question, media outlets sensationalized the event, redirecting public ire toward the victim. themselves. In the end, it would take two grand juries and a civil suit to achieve justice on behalf of the four black teenagers. For some, Gets would go on to become a national hero, inciting a disturbing new chapter in American history. This brutal act revealed a white rage and resentment much deeper, larger, and more insidious than the actions of Bernie Gets himself. Intensified by politicians and tabloid media, it could lead a stunning number of white Americans to celebrate vigilanteism as a full, legitimate means for addressing racial fear, fracturing American race relations.

Drawing from never-before-seen and archival interviews, newspaper accounts, legal files, and more, Heather Ann Thompson sheds new light on the social and political conditions which set the stage for these events. It is heavily researched. It is heavily referenced. And I want to say it's so wild that a man who murdered for unarmed citizens, some who were sitting down, was so, immediately protected and celebrated by a lot of white America, but it's kind of hard to say that it's too wild when you pay attention to history as well. Heather and I dive into her passion for reporting history and injustice, and we also discuss how this Bernie Gett's case is eerily similar to that of Kyle Rittenhouse or even Jonathan Ross. And most of

most recently the execution of Alex Preddy, at which I did want to make a note, we do at some point talk about the ICE-related deaths, and we recorded this on January 12th, which at the time it had been Keith Porter and Renee Good, who had been killed by ICE in 2026. That number has gone up since then, but the reason we aren't discussing these other egregious acts of injustice

This is just timing. It hadn't happened yet. So yeah, we recorded on January 12th. It, uh, is a really powerful episode. And I do think if you have any interest in understanding how we've gotten to where we are with politics currently, this is a really good book that really shows how similar these sentiments were even in the 80s. So that being said, let's hear from Heather. So I am super excited to talk with Heather. Ann Thompson about fear and fury. There is a lot to dive into, but thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, I'm so glad to be here. Yeah. So I was researching you a little bit too, and I saw you are a professor in Michigan, and that you've kind of always covered some of these like social and

racially related subjects. So kind of what was your journey to becoming a professor and like kind of what intrigued you about those subjects? Yeah. Well, thank you for asking. And I'm really so glad to be on here with you. I am a person who grew up in Detroit, Michigan in the 70s and the 80s. And, you know, as a kid growing up in those decades, but also an inner city kid in a city that was so particularly demonized by the country, particularly racially. There was such a disconnect from the experience I had as a person growing up in a city like that and the way it was written about historically and in the present day. So that was kind of my earliest entree into being really committed to doing civil rights stories, stories of injustice, stories of black politics.

And that kind of just, that was my first book, which was about Detroit, but then it became, led me to my second book, which is about the Attica Prison Uprising. And then ultimately, it's led me to the most recent one. I would say the theme in all of them is just really trying to understand these critical places we find ourselves in today that they're so disconnected from the ideals we have about what this country is supposed to be about. liberty, justice for all. And rather than just kind of throwing up hands and saying, well, it's just the way it is, people are racist or I want to understand how those things are actually made. I tend to gravitate towards these stories where I feel they are, they really symbolize those shifting moments or tell us about them. Yeah, I completely agree. I've gotten just more into history. in the last like two years and similar to what you're saying, it's like, I'm trying to understand

today and reading history is what is helping me the most, especially more history than just like what was being taught in my small town high school, basically. So yeah, I feel I've been gravitating towards those stories a little bit to myself. And with fear and fury, one of the things that I noticed kind of from the get-go once I started reading it is you it is about the subway shootings. So that's kind of like the singular story that it's about. But you also use it to kind of like you said, talk about like everything that was going on socially and economically in New York, especially in the 80s. So what, what drew, was it like the shooting story that kind of attracted you first or was it like talking about New York in that time period?

Well, it's so funny because I can remember the Bernie Gett shooting on a New York subway car like pretty vividly. I remember myself, you know, seeing the news stories about it. And so it's always been in the back of my mind. And weirdly, when I was working on Attica, one of the main Attica Lawyers, Bill Cuncelor, was also an lawyer that shows up in the Gets case. So it was always kind of on my radar or something I was really curious about. But when we see this dramatic recent rise of Trump and particularly the kind of vitriol and kind of unleashing of white racial rage and frankly, vindication of vigilanteism. So men like, you know, Kyle, boys really like Kyle Rittenhouse,

go and protesters and get legally vindicated. But this kind of moment of unmitigated rage that the courts are supporting and our president is enforcing. And that got me thinking about this case again. It's like, wow, a moment in the 80s when this similar case happens. And what in the world was going on then that kind of, I suspected, unleashes this new moment that we're in. And the fact that it took place in the 80s,

I also intuitively knew we needed to start paying much more attention to that decade. I mean, after all, you know, this is the epicenter of the drug war and AIDS crisis and the rise in the unhoused population. Something was going on in the 80s. At least I felt that I wanted to dig in. Yeah, it was like we were talking about even at the beginning. as I was reading, I was like, there are so many things. This is reminding me of. And I had Kyle Rittenhouse and now Jonathan Ross listed here as things that were so similar, especially

similar in the ways that you're like, how are they, quote unquote, getting away with this. So yeah, I mean, it really, it really, really shows how we got to where we are today. And what I thought was interesting, too, like, you saw. start it off, and the subtitle is like the Reagan 80s, the shootings and the rebirth of white rage. And you do start off talking about like how Reagan came in and was like, we're going to get rid of all of these programs that we're helping people. And so it sets the stage for why crime was a little bit higher. So can you kind of like talk about like how the Reagan part set this up? Sure. You know, one of the, one of the things about the 1980s, if you talk to anyone of a certain

generation, they look back on it with this kind of odd mix of like nostalgia, like, you know, this was Madonna, this was, you know, hammer pants, you know, this is a moment where we all kind of look back on with a bit of, you know, fun and nostalgia. But if you actually probe, we also always think of the 80s as, oh, man, cities in the 80s, they were terrible. Like you would never want to go into Times Square. You would never want to live in the city. After all, this is when so many people are, you know, who haven't already fled to the suburbs or like, I am done with inner city Detroit or or downtown Manhattan or wherever.

And the thing is, is that's created. What we don't really understand is that the kind of urban crisis that we see, the rise in homelessness, the inability to really address the fact that there's a major AIDS epidemic, the fact that the drug war is out of control and the fact that drug addiction is on the rise are not just some natural thing that happens because why not? They happen because we have a real shift in the way that this country is going to handle the public good. And the rise of the Reagan 80s is so significant because the Reagan Republicans pull off something that rich people had been trying to pull off for a very, very long time, which was let's get rid of the liberal taxes.

Let's get rid of the new deal. Let's get rid of paying for the social compact. Why do we need public schools? My kids can go to great private schools. Why do we need endorsements in public health clinics? Why do we need any of this, right? I don't need this. no one else needs this. Right. And they couldn't pull it off, right? Because a whole generation, particularly white working class people, needed those benefits, became middle class because of those benefits.

Their opening really comes with Reagan because he's able to articulate, look, the problem here, the reason why you're kind of starting to struggle towards the 70s, it's not because of what's happening with the economy. It's because of the blacks. It's because of laziness, because of criminality. They kind of perfect that language that government is bloated and and that taxes are wasted and we pay way too many taxes. And they sell this in such a way that the more they strip from the public coffers, the more grew in people's minds, the rhetoric becomes, oh my God, yes,

crime is out of control. And look, it's because of these thugged teenage kids. And, oh, look, you know, the trash is piling up. But they never see it for what's really going on. And the book, I think, tries to show you is that that's not accidental. I mean, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm a historian. I show you how, for example, key people in the Reagan administration said, look, you know, we want to get rid of these liberal programs.

We want to get rid of this stuff. But in order to do that, we have a message that we have to keep on harping on, which is that they're a failure, the government's a failure. And guess what? We need people like Rupert Murdoch, you know, conservative tabloid media Mongol, Mongol, or mobile. Girl and mogul. Mogul. To help us to kind of craft that message and they say it, they mean it. And before you know it, a city like New York is in the grips of a crisis that it doesn't understand.

And it's in that horrible kind of troubled social moment that an event like the get shooting unfolds and then gives life to it. it meaning to it and so forth. Yes. Yeah. It's, um, yeah, just everything you said there, uh, it's like if you, if you take the funding that's helping people live like safer lives away. Of course, that is what's going to happen. Um, and it'd be kind of, it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in that sense or not even self-fulfilling because it's like they're still like kind of forcing it on other people as well. Um, but it's, it's, it's, it's like, it's kind of forcing it. Um, But at the beginning of the book, too, there's multiple references to how politicians around that time, kind of like the 70s leading into the 80s. We're also using so much of this rhetoric that we need to get back to how great things were previously.

And it was this time, I've obviously read that rhetoric in a lot of different places, especially at present. But this time as I was reading it, I'm like, of course it has always been a political tactic because it's just like always making you think like things were so much better and I'm going to be the one to bring it back to that time. But it's just like this ephemeral time that like a lot of people, a lot of white people specifically, are aware of how how bad it's always been for people who aren't white in America. So it's so tempting for politicians to kind of do this. nostalgia stuff, we'll get back to it. But then also they're still just making the crime worse in this case. Well, it's interesting because this today's rhetoric, as you're mentioning, the make America

great rhetoric, you're absolutely right. Reagan has a whole rhetoric. He actually framed it more in terms of family values, you know, the good old days of the 50s. The irony, the irony in both cases, is that that very, to the extent that the 50s was magical, to the extent that it was, if we don't think about the fact that it was segregated and racist and all of the same. Reform schools still existed, yeah. Exactly. To the extent that it was magical, it was magical for people who had been able to benefit from the largest of the government, from the FHA loans, from the Social Security. Act from things that the federal government had invested in the body politic, overwhelmingly white body politic, but nevertheless. And so it was very ironic to say, we're going to go back to a time

when we actually were able to have that time because of an investment in public resources. So there's a slight of hand, actually, that's happening here. And what they really mean is they'd like to get back to the time when government is unfettered, when they don't have to have any restraints on them, when profits can be unlimited. And that way they say, right, that then the benefits are going to trickle down to ordinary and everyday people. But the thing about the 80s is it showed that just didn't happen. The rich got richer, ordinary people, even people who still did pretty well, stopped being

able to send all their kids to college, didn't quite have enough money to retire at 65, like they might otherwise have done. So it's about, I think it's time we kind of just pull back the veil on raises like make, how did, how was America great back in the day to the extent that it was? Right. And then, and then you're mentioning, and I think this is so critically important, the politics of race here. Because of course, the coded language in all of this is we want to make this country great for white people. And what is dragging it down is the need to also help to pick up non-white people. But of course, that was the flaw of the first liberal vision. It was discriminatory. So the solution would have been, let's make that less discriminatory.

not let's abandon it. And those points are just, unfortunately, we, we don't, we don't teach it. We don't see it. And, you know, I'm hoping anyway that a story like this one can recall our attention back

to when we took this path that frankly, even ordinary white people now are like a little like, whoa. Yes. Yes, we need more of them to know. Yes, it doesn't feel great. feels kind of ugly. This feels kind of awful. Yeah, the other, the other part that I think is resonant in the 80s and also indicative of like what's happening now.

I even saw just this morning, we're recording on January 12th, that Trump said said something again about how civil rights, when the Civil Rights Act passed, it has made it progressively easier to be mean to white people. people. And that's been a part of his rhetoric for a while is that like the Civil Rights Act actually hurt the country as a whole. And the you kind of mentioned that because the Civil Rights Act had just been passed in, is it, 64, 65? Okay, as well. And so then we, I was seeing someone who was talking about how the pendulum is like always swinging back and forth, unfortunately. And so some of this was like the beginning of that notion that like within the 80s. Some of it was the beginning of that notion that like, oh, the Civil Rights Act actually made things worse for us.

Can you kind of talk about how that then like played into what was. Let's be clear. As much as what I had just said would kind of suggest that even white people were duped somehow. by the political path that we went down, we have to be really frank here, that that never would have worked if white people did not also benefit from it. So the truth is that to have a truly,

racially just society, it requires sharing resources, sharing jobs, not assuming that all the spoils of society come to you and to your children and to people that look like you should you be white. And so it is not, it is not disingenuous, I would say, for white people to be like, oh, well, okay, yeah, I think civil rights actually has made things worse for me because, of course, they're coming at it from this perspective of, you know, before affirmative action, I could have just guaranteed that my son or daughter,

whoever would get that job or I assume that in the factory I would get the most seniority, not the guy they just hired from the South Bronx. And so in material ways, right? The civil right movement did change life for ordinary white people. But what is interesting is why that was not, that could have been spun, I should just say. That could have been spun as, look, true. but the benefit for you, right, is that the whole society is safer. The whole society is more prosperous, which in turn means that your kids are safer, which in turn means that we have a better society for your children to go. But no, instead, the rhetoric was, ah, you are being preyed upon, you are losing,

you are being abandoned. And this is the rub, right? This is big. But what we have to remember is that if you are at the top of the society, your best interest is to make sure that that's where people's eyes are. That's the people they're watching. Not, wow, the guy next to me who's black, the, you know, my neighbor who is, you know, Latina. we are all actually getting a little screwed right now.

Yes. Why is it that, you know, corporations pay virtually no taxes, you know, why isn't it that only some people's kids get to go to college? Nobody wants those questions asked if you were in the top 1% frankly. Yeah. It's the other thing, and there's like all kinds of, there's some of this is like related to like Christian nationalism too currently. but there's so much they like want to be the victims so badly and everything you just said like in some conversations I've had with people I'm like you're not being oppressed by inclusivity you're just not number one all the time and it's been like that for so long that I think so many white people

are like oh my gosh like I have to say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas and they think they're like being dis or being oppressed or being attacked or being abandoned you're like that's that's not what this is like there have been much worse things that were actual oppression that have happened and they're just so fragile but i and i think that the point you're making is so important because if we were to just you know not look at this carefully it would feel like it would seem like you know, the Christian nationalists or ordinary, just frankly, ordinary white people, you know what? They just can't, they can't see a just society.

They can't see an inclusive society. You know, racism is that inherent. It's that deep. And yet, we know that people are remarkably savvy. People are remarkably resilient. And when they actually understand that their material circumstances, circumstances can actually improve pretty dramatically if they check their racism. If they stand with people who are actually working next to them instead of over them,

then in fact, people are quite self-interested. They actually can see this. So the real question we face is, why can't people see that? Or why can't people make those connections? It's not because they're stupid. It's not because they're dumb. It's not because they don't necessarily watch television or read or think. It's because a very specific message is curated.

And I use that word carefully because around the time of the gets case, we see the rise of this misinformation media that is bankrolled by very, very wealthy people. That is its job is to keep the eye on the ball of crime and the narrative of white abandon. men. Yes, the sensationalism was like fascinating that you're pointing out with Rupert Murdoch because my husband and I were joking at some point last month, like someone was reading a magazine and we were like, oh, like, analog Instagram is the magazine. And then when I did not realize that Rupert Murdoch got to a point where he was putting out like sometimes eight different newspapers in one day. And I was like, this is like, this is like analog Twitter almost. This is. This is a little bit of. This is a little bit of

essentially. Like, it was like that beginning of like feed people all of this information and keep it as sensational as possible. And I, I didn't even know that it kind of developed that way, specifically in the 80s. Sure. Make people understand that their rage is legitimate. Yeah. Their rage is worth venting. And that meant like Bernie Gatz, who shoot four unarmed black teenagers, are heroes. And that, you know, we would understand basically anyone that would take the law into, to their own hands. That message gets amplified and amplified and amplified. And basically, once we get the cable revolution, which is at the late 80s and early 80s, someone with the

resources and the means and the political backing of Rupert Murdoch understands, listen, man, this is gold. We are going to take the show on the road. And very notably, you might remember from the book, the early Fox News actually has sort of, a count point counterpoint kind of format right they've got the liberal on there they've got the conservative on there let's debate these issues very very quickly the whole even notion that you need to consider the liberal viewpoint completely evaporates yes and as does fact checking and truth telling because there is and here's the key right meanwhile regulation has gone out the window on businesses so you can do whatever you want.

We don't realize, for example, that Trump is a master media person in the same way, by the way that Reagan was, he understands that. He has cultivated that, so by the time he first runs for office, by the way, the very, very first time he went for me, he's got like, you know, whatever, 1% of the vote. How does he go from 1% of the vote to a landslide victory? Fox media. Yes. And being on there 300 times relentlessly unfat-checked.

Yes. We need to stand that history. Yes. Yeah, it's it you like you really directly see that now with like fake news being like the word for it now and maybe just sensationalism in the past. But yeah, he there was there's a book, Apprentice in Wonderland was like one of the first. ones I read to like understand that like especially the reality TV connection which is a whole other thing um of like crafting images Trump pioneered Trump pioneered the me he understood to become an every man was very important to becoming a strong man you know you had to be on the apprentice

you can be rich like me and you're like no you're in you detail like Fred Trump also like the way that He basically even got money from the government to build up his real estate empire. And then that Donald Trump was not starting from nothing, essentially. But there is some of his rhetoric that makes people think, like, if I'm tough like him, I also loved Jesus and John Wayne, really the hyper-masculinization and toxic masculinization of everything. is they're like, oh, I can be big and tough and successful like him, just now we're here. Well, and also that the very idea that that Trump is able to sell so successfully that he is somehow anti-elite.

Yeah. That he represents ordinary working class people. That is a playbook that was, again, really kind of crafted in the 80s in a way that we just, I don't think we really appreciate. How can, you know, a wealthy movie star coming out of California sell the message that he's a working class hero? That takes effort. It takes crafting. And, and again, it's essential to say, not because people are sitting ducks and dupes and don't think and are like, you know, the unthinking deplorables.

No, it's because actually they are being meanwhile stripped of what they need to live full lives that are not, you know, feeling precarious on a daily basis. The income inequality in this country over the last 40, almost 50 years has become so extreme that our main president is talking the language of populism. That is an alarming that didn't just happen. Yes. Yeah. And we, yeah, all kinds of things. It's the like curse of capitalism as well. Like the the worshipping of money, like while also to your point trying to be like,

but I'm also not elite and you're like, but you are. So yeah, it's so messy. And Bernie gets, just to go back to that. He was not elite. And that, I mean, again, this is so important to the story. So he's just an or, I mean, he's certainly upper, I mean, he's middle class. He went to college. He's a professional.

But he's not a rich man. He's not living the lavish lifestyle. So he can kind of fill in for every other, you know, white person, a city like New York or Chicago or Detroit who gets up in the morning and they look outside of their window in the 80s and they're like, God, look at all the trash piling up. Look at the drug addicts. Look at all these black teenagers being slammed up against, you know, doors being arrested. Like, what is happening here? The world feels like it's decaying. And then he gets on that subway and he encounters these four black teenagers who themselves have also suffered the Reagan 80s, which is why they're on that train.

to go down to a video arcade to jimmy open the poignory articles to simply get a little money how this whole thing can come to a clash because they're both experiencing this dislocation of the 80s but understanding it really differently that's that's what i thought you did such a great job of we we start off with like the i don't know if it's the prologue or if it's like the first chapter but You're kind of in the perspective of one of the kids who's shot. So it kind of starts off with that. And then you kind of like back up and explain how we got there and what you're saying. Then we at least know where Gets is coming from and where these four boys are coming from as they all, unfortunately,

ends up on the same subway car together. and I thought that was so powerful because it's also, it also like tease up the fact that if you're reading this, you can, you start considering who, like, who's a criminal, what crime means, how, how, how the definition of criminal and crime is like up to whoever's in the governing body, essentially, and they could kind of play with the rules. but what really stood out to me too is like as I was reading it I'm like I was seeing a very distinct difference between like a crime of desperation and a crime that's just like hateful and violent was that kind of like a motivating factor in wanting to really like show both sides you know yes and I have to say and this is and I've said this before to people not proudly one of my biggest embarrassments is that back in the day when I heard of the Bernie Gets case and ever since then, I never knew, nor did I stop to ask, what the names were of the people he had shot. I had no

idea what their names were. I had no idea what had happened to them. It never occurred to me to ask or even particularly to care, being a child of the 80s as I was. And so my motivation, was I absolutely want to do a more comprehensive history here of what happened and rescue the story of the victims who were erased from this story and vilified. The most extraordinary thing is, you know, you're hinting these are the victims. They are shot by a man with illegal guns. Yes. And they overnight become the villain. overnight they become the, you know, the animals that deserved what they got. And so I needed to kind of go back and research who were they?

Where did they get from? And quick to discover that, you know, from the moment that they're shot, I mean, the hate mail that's coming to their parents, the threatening phone calls while they are in the hospital suffering one kid shot in the back another kid shot straight in the in the in the heart area yeah another kid paralyzed for the rest of his life when Bernie gets not only shoots him and severes his spinal cord but it's the second shot he goes over there and he says you look all right here's another this is an extraordinary moment how this guy becomes the hero it's a it's you know honestly this is why I'm not surprised, you know, last night watching the nightly news when I'm seeing the video

of the ICE agent killing the woman in Minneapolis. And we're clearly seeing what's happening. And the White House is saying the ice agent was fighting for his life, basically. That's why he had to do what he did. It's insane. Like if you're not looking at we, I think we have like six different camera angles at this point. So like you can see that he's not run over. You can see that she's driving away. We now even have footage of like the last thing she said to him was like, I'm not mad at you dude. And then he still shot her.

And it is if I was just, I had a book club yesterday and we were actually, there's a girl in our book club who's from Spain and she was just like confused by it and was just like asking about it. And I was like, if you're not doing any other work or like, or if it's not in your algorithm to see some independent journalists. You could only be hearing the government's perspective right now, which is saying she was a terrorist. They're saying she was like a part of a dark, far left, like conspiracy that she was being paid. Like, she's not even trying to stop him. She's just trying to drive away. But if you're only listening to our government, that's all you're hearing

right now. But I agree. Like, it's been, this has been happening to non-white people for hundreds of years in our country. And there's still just some people who don't know. But yeah, it's so similar. The misinformation media network that we have today is different in the sense that it is more people watch Fox News now than watch any other program. So it is the story. And that is a relative. recent phenomenon, one again that I hope, I hope readers can kind of see the origins of in the story that they tell. But for example, you know, ordinary, I'm sorry, the people who create Fox News, obviously Murdoch, but the entire executive team, understand that the importance of capturing

the hearts and minds of viewers is everything. And so when Murdoch buys, sports, the rights to broadcast sports, this is part of the overall understanding of where this company needs to go. And here's the logic. Ordinary people, no one really likes to watch the news, but if you're going to watch the news, you want it to be brand familiarity, right? You're always watching whatever. You always watch Channel 4. You always watch Channel 7. In this case, you're watching your sports, particularly disaffected white men, are watching sports, not just, but particularly. Right. Yeah.

And they're watching it. And then, okay, now it's time for what just happened in the news? Okay. You're going to go watch Fox News because the Fox and network is where you are at home. Yeah. That was gold. That was gold. So that today you're right.

You can absolutely watch what you feel. like is the news and all of the said Renee good is an Antifa terrorist. Yeah. With zero evidence to that effect. Right. Yeah. Or and you're also thinking Antifa, which is anti-fascism is able to be used next to terrorism, which is a whole literacy thing too. A couple, another thing that really stood out to me when we're reading what, how happened in the subway car. So Bernie, like you were saying, really frustrated that there's so much graffiti. There are drug addicts.

There's trash all over his city. And so he tries multiple different ways to get guns so that he could have them on him. And he does illegally obtain a gun. So he has what we would really consider a weapon. And he got it illegally. And then we have these four teenagers who have screwdrivers because they were, again, we're kind of talking about crime of desperation here. They were going to be stealing, like, change from pinball machines or subway turn styles. So they have them in their pockets, but it's not out.

But the thing that really stood out to me there, too, is like, like you were saying, immediately, it's, Look at these kids. They have these misdemeanors or they were carrying screwdrivers. They've done illegal things in the past. And it sounds like almost immediately no one is like even talking about the fact that, one, he had the actual weapon. And he also gained it through illegal means. So like the cognitive dissonance, like I was very much feeling that back and forth.

Was that like something, again, kind of from the beginning where you're like, this is, it's so indicative of the whole case. For sure. And again, crafted. So the teens do have screwdrivers, two of them in their pockets. By the way, two that never even talked against. But they are just screwdrivers. Very quickly overnight, the New York Daily News publishes a story and says that they were sharpened screwdrivers. Again, complete mythology. That story that they are sharpened screwdrivers, screwdrivers not only becomes the story, but even

very recently, speaking of Kyle Rittenhouse and today's terms, when Fox does this piece on Kyle Rittenhouse where they actually interview burning guests, this is very recently, obviously, again, the story of the sharp and screwdrivers that never

happened. So it is a story that never happened that gets crafted very early. And then the fact that the boys get dubbed as criminals is also a very deliberate act. So these are these are teenagers that even as kids had stacked up a whole lot of misdemeanor citations because you jump the subway turnstile without paying. If you do these crimes that are literally under like $200 worth or whatever misdemeanors. So they have kind of stacked up all these misdemeanor charges as

plenty of teenagers did particularly in poor neighborhoods. They reasoned they don't report on them because they don't really have the money to pay the fine if they get to the court and so forth. As they are recovering in the hospital and as Bernie gets is on the lamb,

he has fled. There's a man for him. Two Bronx judges suddenly issue bench warrants on all of these misdemeanor crimes. But they did not care about previously. Exactly. And so the front page, again, even of the New York Times, maybe not the front page, but a key headline in the New York Times, you know, the criminal records of the, you know, these are criminal kids. But of course, the fact that these were nonviolent misdemeanor property, ridiculous crimes in the scheme of things completely disappears. So the next thing, you know, these are, these are, you know, such bad criminals that even the judge,

say the minute they get better in the hospital, they need to be arrested. Yes. So all of its attention is on them. But meanwhile, Bernie Gets is literally with the illegal guns having fled to New Hampshire. Yes. Yeah. Such a double standard going on. And even that was reminding me, our president has, it's been convicted of 34 felons.

And a lot of his messaging, especially in defense of vice, is that we have to get rid of these criminal immigrants. And I'm like, the numbers don't even make sense, but here we are. But the other thing with that case, one, the idea of like sitting in a hotel room or not a hotel, a hospital room fighting for your life. And then also like, you even mentioned like them like feeling like sitting ducks. Like it's like they're just there and there's all this hate towards them. And now there's these awards actually being filed against them. Just terrible to begin with. I can't even fathom feeling that kind of helpless. But the other thing that really stood out to me in terms of systemic racism, which I think is sometimes it's really hard for people to understand

what that even means. What really stood out to me is what you talked about. He's on the run. overnight people are already lauding him as like a vigilante hero. But even when he turns himself in and like gives this very chilling confession, especially with the part that you're talking about where he did walk up to, is it Daryl or Dorel? I can't. Daryl. So when he walks up to Daryl and is like, you look okay. How about a second one?

Uh, meaning another bullet. So he gives this chilling confession. I think in New Hampshire. and even at the time then the police officers taking it are kind of getting this feeling from the New York detectives that are like, be careful with what he's saying, though. And to me, I was like, this is a really good, I mean, really sad, but a really good example of systemic racism because already there's a system in place for him that like, even though he's confessing, it's already kind of. kind of coalescing around him to defend him. So can you kind of talk about that part?

Sure. I mean, I'm actually, no, I'm smiling because I'm actually glad that that subtlety if it was subtle came through because, yes, you know, he's getting questioned by these detectives when he finally turns myself in. And he is unleashing this, as you say, chilling confession. He's already done one earlier to the local police. he does another one with the New York City detectives. And there are these moments in his confession where the detectives are sort of like almost like

given him a lifeline. Like, well, so were you feeling threatened or did this, you know, did this have to do with the previous like when you had been mugged like earlier in your life? You're trying to kind of like tell, tell me what you, give me a reason why you did this. And I understand, right. They also are trying to understand why he. did this. But there's a little bit of a, you know, surely do, like, don't, don't, you know, this is a chance.

Like, like, you know, and, and, and of course, he is unrepentant. He says, no, this wasn't about a robbery. I didn't like the gleam in that guy's eyes, you know, no, the, the mugging I experienced before had nothing to do with it. But of course, as you see in the story, nevertheless, it becomes impossible. even with this conviction to convict him. Yeah. Just like immediately. Yeah.

And what you were talking about, that was also the point. So then there are people who start sending in money for his legal fund. And I was like, it is so similar. Kyle Rittenhouse got, I think it was go fund me. It was one of them. He was getting go fund me donations. And then I had just seen yesterday, right before I was doing interview prep, I saw that like I think six figures I could be incorrect but I think it's already up to six figures for Jonathan Ross who is the ice agent who shot Renee Good for anyone who didn't know that was his name and I was like that like just reading having just read this book I was like again we keep talking about like the past is like telling us how we got here I was like the systems are all in place to protect white people like as quick

as possible. You know, but what's scary? And I think that, again, I always hesitate to kind of leave with the feeling of, oh, it's so hopeless because it's always been there. Right. But before I, maybe you'll allow me to give some optimism here. I do think that it is very chilling that by the time we get to today, the situation that you just described, this is.

a white woman who is a U.S. citizen. Right. And so the ground laid during the 80s against someone like Darrell Kaby, ground laid against even, for example, the now exonerated Central Park Five. Yes, I was thinking about them a lot. All of these, the terrible excuses made for white violence against black people in that earlier period. And by the way, continuing today is now off the chain. And the problem is you can't control rage and irrational rage once it's unleashed. So fast forward, you know, a very ordinary white woman, mother, partner, mother, community asset is gun down. And that is defensible.

So, you know, it isn't even just that past, that present repeats past. It is that there is an evolution of this. There is a, you know, degradation, if you will. Yeah. Culture of violence that that's why it's time to take stock of it. Yeah, because what you're really talking about too is what was standing out to me, too, is the indifent things that come up. So it's like even exploring like, oh, these kids had misdemeanors.

and the question is still like, so they deserved to be shot or Daryl deserved to be paralyzed for the rest of his life? Like the things that even get brought up that like some people really believe is like a reason they deserve something. I'm now seeing it same thing with Renee Good where people are like, well, she was kind of driving close to him. And people are like, so she deserved to be shot? Like it's insane. Why not arrest her? Right. not arrest her if that were the case.

Yeah. And you're seeing some agents or police officers or even people who've been in the military coming out and talking about how de-escalation is what they were taught. And like he could have shot her tires if he was actually scared, which I don't know that he was scared. We can't speak to that. But there's all kinds of things that could have been different. And the defenses are just like, so it just leaves you questioning. Like so this per you're saying this person, deserve this because they weren't a perfect person or like, yeah, the undue force. We lay that groundwork kind of eerily in the wake of this sketch shooting. I mean, I hate to put so much importance on one event, but it really is kind of startling.

Rudy Giuliani will become the mayor of New York and really sell and perfect this kind of policing that you're talking about, which is. the ask no question, stop, frisk, arrest, the police can do no wrong kind of policing, that guy cuts his teeth on the gets case, right? He is the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, and he is asked by civil rights leaders, can you bring a civil rights case on behalf of these kids? And he says, no. And he is watching this case, and he understands that this is a real opening to

to do what? To hyper police cities like New York. Why, though? Why? Because you want to clean them up, gentrify them. Meanwhile, giving huge tax incentives and breaks to rich people so that they can make New York City their playground. And of course, for ordinary people, right? It's nice, I will confess, it's nice to be able to go into New York City now. Yes. quite feel as gritty and a little, you know, a little alarming maybe as it did in the 70s and 80s. But the thing is, we are all looking at that glitz and that glamour through the window. We're looking at Gucci through the window. And that is not enough.

No. Not enough at the end of the day to put food on the table and so forth. But that policing made that possible. The kind of ask no questions, we don't need to D.S. escalate, we will slam you up against a wall and we will arrest you. And if we have to shoot you, we'll shoot you. Yes. Yeah. The, what you're talking about with the glitz and glamour. I had like just listened to the gods of New York before I started reading this one. And that's another one. If you're a little more interested in like the money and the way that

the city was essentially like you're saying like there's incentives given to really rich people and you like think that's good. But then you've basically like privatized almost like your entire city in some ways. Oh, yeah. And that book, that book does a good job of showing like a lot of the greed and like that part that was involved in this time period. But with yours, the other thing, the title is so important with the fear and the fury. So we have the four teenagers who are obviously fearful, especially once this situation, once he shoots, once he starts shooting. So they're experiencing so much fear. I am sure they were experiencing fury when they're sitting in the hospital and like all of this is unfolding.

But at the same time, Bernie is like, I'm experiencing fear living in New York. I'm angry. I'm fury. I'm experiencing anger at the fact that it's like this. And so I feel like the book also really is like who is allowed to feel fear and fury? and how how do we kind of like yeah how do we how do we treat people based off of if we think they are allowed to feel fear and fury exactly whose comfort matters whose lives matter not to be cliche but whose lives matter whose fear matters whose sense of security matters and you know and how and and you're going to make a city in the image of that the answer to that question Right. The city is going to be a place of most comfort to the people with the most means that look like the people in charge and so forth. And you're absolutely right. I mean, for people like Daryl Kee and Troy Canty and Barry Allen and James Ramzor, who are the kids who he, who shoots, of course they're angry. But, you know, they turn it inward because there's no place else to turn it. So, you know, they struggle not.

all of them, but, you know, two of them very much struggle with drug addiction, depression, they're traumatized. James Rimsworth ends up killing himself on the anniversary of this shooting. It is the fallout from this. And that's the other reason I hope people will read the book, that we spend a lot of talking about white rage. We spend a lot of time talking about the ugliness that we see unfolding every day. But what we never really spend much time talking about is what does this cost? What is it from the other side? And what is the fallout from all of this? Because at the end of the day, if we lose sight of that, then frankly, there's nothing wrong with the rage machine. There's nothing wrong with people spouting off or shooting guns, beating someone

up until you have to actually sit with what that looks like. And to this day, Carol Keeby is still living. Darrell Kaby has been paralyzed since he's been 18 years old. His entire life was changed. But meanwhile, Bernie Gets still lives in Greenwich Village, still gets to walk in Union Square Park every single day and feed the squirrels and do what he wants to do. And that in its essence is the lingering injustice of this story. Yeah. That's when I got to the end and then when I was just researching in general, you like search Bernie Gets and you see him like you're saying. He's doing like interview appearances and like just mostly living life. Like none of this happened. And then like you're saying, Daryl's still, he hasn't been able to walk since

he was 18. Yeah, it's, it's extra, it's extra frustrating. It's extra infuriating. And I know what you mean about like, you don't want to just be pessimistic either. But for me, like what I've noticed is like gleaning information for me specifically has helped me feel more grounded at least. And like I am less likely to be able to be gaslit or brain. washed. So like, and obviously, like, we're both white women, but it's, it's also probably easier

for me to read some of the history because it's not like generational trauma that's like stored in my body too. So I know that's not always the answer for everyone, but it's been helping me to know history. But on the flip side, having read the gods of New York and then fear and fury, what it was making me think about is how I think New York, especially in its size, like, the amount of people that lived there, it feels like it's a predictor for what's about to what will eventually happen across the rest of the country. And if we were going to end on an optimistic note, it did make me think this Zoran Mamdani winning could be a really positive thing to hold on to.

So if we wanted to end positively, I was having that realization. It may take years, but it's like the fact that he won felt even more momentum. after reading these books. I think that's absolutely right. And in fact, and of course, you know, his victory, people will say, well, it's just New York or, you know, it's just a mayor. But the thing that's so really interesting to me about that moment is what it shows is that in a city, the richest in the country, with the most income inequality, some of the worst history of racial violence, somehow, and even with Trump, in the White House. Yes.

Somehow, ordinary people at the end of the day understand, look, I need to be able to afford my rent. I need to be able to send my kids to school and have them actually learn. I need to be able to have a job. I need to be able to take public transportation. I need a safety net so that I and the people that I love don't have to become rich, don't have to become wealthy. Just we need to be able to survive. That understanding somehow cut through the anti-missom, anti-

just even like anti-emitism was somehow getting into it. Well, somehow. Literally cut through that. And that's the other thread in American history that I hope at the end of the book that I pull a little bit for people to, This is not actually a story of inevitability. It's not a story of collapse. This has as much history of solidities and bridge building and class awareness of what the broader public needs.

We just keep losing sight of it. And again, not because we're dumb, but because the opposition is so skilled at crafting rhetoric. If we own the media, our job is a lot. harder to overcome it. Yes. But overcoming it, I think that that election in New York makes it possible. And by the way, not just that also the Obama before it and the occupied Wall Street and the Black Lives Matter. The question is, what happens next?

And I think we have to understand how we got here first to have a hope and a prayer, which I always try to do. Yes. I do that. And like you're saying, there's a little bit of state media. vibes going on here. But I do think that's why nonfiction and reading from historians like yourself, like also you have so many references for all the information you're talking about. So it's like we can read more nonfiction. You can even, we also, I talk on this podcast a lot. There's also fiction that will help you understand so much as well. But nonfiction has felt more reliable than the news right now. So everyone, you know, every now and then it's worth it for sure to be reading some of the nonfiction. I do always ask at the end if you have any books that you always recommend or anything you've read that you've loved recently.

I mean, there's so many. I will say one that I've read most recently that I think is just fabulous. It's actually about the Bronx. It's called In Flames by Ben Jansfield. and there's another one written recently. Also about the Bronx, I'm kind of in a New York moment right now, but it's such a powerful story. And it's about the story of the murder of a Bronx woman,

Eleanor Bumpers by LaShawn Harris, another amazing story. The one I'm looking forward to, actually, is by Colson Whitehead. He's got a book coming up on the 80s. So I'm very much looking forward to that. So, yes, read, read, read, read. and at least in the nonfiction that I try to write, I try. You can tell me to what extent it succeeds, but I try to write it much like one wood fiction in the sense that this is a story.

It is short chapters. It's meant to engage. It gets a little heavy in the beginning as we set up the Reagan 80s, but then I hope that the story really takes over because it is about a story. It's about ordinary people that animate this. this history that we live every single day. So if your, if your listeners read it, I am always so excited to hear what people thought. Yeah. Yeah. Read it out and let me know. Yeah, it definitely feels like narrative nonfiction that as I was reading it, which just makes it, it makes it easier

to like stay locked in and like read through all of it. So I got that vibe. I think other people will for sure. It was also reminding me cast by Isabel Wilkerson does a really good job of having those individual stories that kind of like help it move along. So if you like her writing, I think you'd like this one too. But thank you so much for coming on and talking about it. Thanks for writing it.

And yeah, everybody needs to go read this one. Thank you so, so much for having me on today. Yeah.