Bookwild - Improv, Love and Grief: Emma Brodie's Into the Blue

Episode Date: June 23, 2026

This week, Emma West, Kara Confer and I talk with Emma Brodie about her love story Into the Blue! Listen to hear about: How a single character—Noah—kept appearing across multiple abandoned projects until he became the foundation of Into the Blue   A behind-the-scenes look at how Emma's theater classes, improv training, and fascination with performance shaped the book's unique portrayal of acting and creative connection.   The emotional reality of publishing while working in the publishing industry, including the vulnerability of releasing work when you're surrounded by people who understand exactly how the business works.   Emma's approach to writing about chronic illness, grief, fame, and the idea that we can never fully know what's happening inside another person—even someone we deeply love   The incredible journey from writing Into the Blue as a deeply personal "heart song" to becoming a Reese's Book Club pick and a Read with Jenna selection   Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

If you have been following me or listening to me for the last few months, you have heard me obsessing about Into the Blue by Emma Brody. I am so excited that we got to talk to her. I got to talk to her with Emma West and Kara Confer from Wild Geese. Also, To The Blue Lovers, if you're watching on YouTube, you can see it was their joint pick. It's a Kara and Emma pick at Wild Geese right now. It is amazing. don't know what it's about it is about a j and noa and in 2000 over a summer a j and noa get really close by practicing and learning improv together they are just so emotionally in sync and then at the end of the summer noa just completely disappears and cell phones don't exist so he's just gone out of her life seven years later they both end up on set of a show together and have to face their closeness and what drove them apart this is in my god tear

of books. This is what reminds me that I need a six star or I give too many five stars, one of the two. I am obsessed with this book. It is one of my favorite books of all time. And I am so excited for you to hear our conversation with Emma. You have probably heard me talk about 10 million times about Into the Blue by Emma Brody. And I am here with Emma Brody and also Emma West and Kara Confer because we are the fan club of this book. So thank you for joining us, Emma. Oh, thank you for having me. This is the best ever.

Yes. We have like all been super excited for it. That's funny. Favorite book I've read this year. My favorite. I still have yet to like connect with characters the same way. I've read books that I've really enjoyed, but I have not. The comps haven't been hitting as hard for me as this one.

Well, this is very validating because I'm trying so. hard to move on myself and I'm like I just I love them that's so fair you can tell that you love them the way you wrote them oh I know they're such real people yes yeah we have a couple like fun I forgot to grab it but I was just saying my copy is like right here but it was one of Emma's picks she is a bookseller who also has some of her picks in the bookstore and so I even have like the one that has like the Emma's pick sticker on it So this is like all full circle having us all here. Oh, I love it.

Yeah. Well, what I'm always interested in when I first talked to an author is what your journey to writing was like. I know you have two novels, but like did you always know you wanted to do that or how did that all happen for you? So I really stuck with the plan and basically started working in book publishing right out of college, first at a literary agency, then on the tree. trade side. I knew pretty quickly I didn't have the stomach for sales. And the whole time I was

like working on different projects. I have a lot of drawer books. And when I turned 30, I was sort of like, it's time to really try on this. Like I've been saying I want to do this for my entire life. This is a big birthday. I really want to go for it. So that was the year I wrote songs and Ursa Major, which published in 2021 into the quiet of the pandemic, which was an interesting experience. Yes. So it's both very thrilling to have my first book out and also just like a very vulnerable process. Especially because I work in the industry. So it's like you're hyper aware of how visible you are. And like it's not even that anyone actually cares. It's just that they could care. And I think for me like I felt like I was in a penopticon. And I honestly like didn't know if I

wanted to do it again. So into the blue, I like, I always knew I would keep writing. It was just a question of whether I would ever show anyone else another book. So I did write a book between my, my first published novel and Into the Blue that I still, to this day, I've not shown a single soul. But that book ended up becoming the plot of the contract in Into the Blue, which is the first movie that Noah stars in. That's like his first Oscar bid. So it like kind of like, like found its path and I think that was really where I started seeing Noah was like it felt like between these two books I was almost like looking through a viewfinder and and I kept like switching images trying to figure out like what is next what is next one character was just like in all the

frames like who is this like big hulking handsome man and I didn't really know what to do with him because I typically write from the female perspective. Like, my first book, there are some chapters that are from a male perspective, but it's mostly Jane. And then I didn't really know what to do with him. But then he kind of introduced me to his world. And then into the blue became this thing that like I just felt so hard for that when it was done. I was like, okay, I have to try again for this one because it's like my heart song.

Yes. Well, I'm glad you wrote it. that is crazy so so Noah in general was the first inspiration for this what was kind of what what kind of got you to the point you're like okay well I can write from AJ's perspective or how did you kind of learn their story this so this it's interesting like I'm really learning this about myself right now yeah I have a very loyal heart and it takes me a very long time to move on from my characters. And I think there is a little bit of like, I remember this from when I was dating.

Like I've been with my husband for 11 years, but I remember in my life before that I did sort of have to like force myself to move on. Like it was just sort of like the best way to get over someone is to get under someone else. And it's like it's very weird when when you've written like hundreds of thousands of words about a single character because it's like even writing another character's name feels weird to me. But so I think with with AJ, I was so stuck on Jane from my first book. I like felt super loyal to her. And I like didn't know how I would ever love again. And so I think it was easier for me to like grab onto a dude because it was kind of different. And so I really wanted to to know Noah and like do this,

but I knew it was going to have to be AJ. Like I was in sort of like this weird meta dialogue with Noah who was like, you have to meet this girl. Like she's amazing. I was like, whatever. And, um, And so it took me like an entire draft, I think, to get used to AJ and for her to get used to me. And I feel like there are these like letters in the fourth section of the book where, um, Udora is like analyzing their early relationship. And I think that was really like me for the first time ever when I wrote those like clarifying for myself like this is their dynamic. Like that's who they are to each other. And then from there it was like going back to the beginning and sort of like redoing it all with that clarity. But it took me a lot, it took us a long time to kind of like warm up to each other. And there's a lot about AJ that's kind of nuanced and hard to understand. Like, for example, like, she is really good at performance, but has no desire to perform. And I, like, could not understand how that worked. Like, I could see that it was very true of the character and that it was like a huge part of

their bond. But I didn't really, it took me a long time to sort of understand, like, why that was. and there are a lot of examples like that. So it was really like sort of like living with a roommate in a house for a year, like trying to get used to her. But at the same time, like I did know I wanted to write this bond and I really wanted to get inside of it. Like I had this thought of like kind of doing a forced connection but in real life. And he was very clear to me. So it was sort of like understanding her and then from there going into it.

Wow. That is so cool. I don't want to hog all the questions. Do you guys have any questions at this point? Oh my gosh. One that comes to mind is like, do you have acting experience? Because like how you wrote acting was so beautiful. And I feel like you could feel both AJ Noah's talents through the book, through the story. And I just, I don't know, it just made it such an atmospheric experience. And I'm just wondering, What is your improv? What is your acting background if you have any? Or you're just like, I was really good at writing this. No, I have a background. So I, like I said, like always knew I wanted to be a writer. And where I was when I got to college was I had written, I had written a full-length book at that point. But all of the characters sounded the same. Like, I could read it and I could tell like every character's dialogue sounds exactly the same. But I could.

I was like reaching for that next place. Like I was trying really hard to figure out how to write like an old man that sounded like an old man and not like a quippy 18 year old. And so I took a bunch of theater classes because I was like if I study plays, that's like where dialogue lives. And this will be really good for my writing. And at the time I went to Johns Hopkins. There was a theater minor that was run by John Aston, who was like the

original Gomez Adams and had like all of these amazing old Hollywood stories and he himself was like a method is a he's old. He's always been old actually like he's 95 I think he's retired but at the time he just he was he's a method actor. He like he just imbued everything with like so much gravitas. And so I loved his classes. I also had a bunch of practical experience from a different professor Peg Denny Thorne, who's incredible, and, like, she's done a ton of work. Like, she does a ton of Shakespeare. She's, she's amazing and, like, a great director. So I got some, like, hands-on experience with her, like, actually being on stage. And I really, like, viewed it as a writing tool, but I, like, theater is such a sacred environment. Like, there's just such an amazing thing to me about going

into this place where it's, like, artificial circumstances, real emotion. And there's something, like, unbelievable like I feel like every time I walk into a theater like even like a theater at a high school or if or a movie theater like there's just this like energetic thing so I've always been very drawn to that my mom's a performer I come by it naturally and then when I moved to New York like when I started in publishing I didn't know anyone so I was like I'm going to make friends and make my friends via improv class so I took improv classes at UCB I was in part of the community for a couple of years and again always knew i was meant for writing so it's interesting because like my skill set would have been much better suited for sketch comedy but i i kind of knew i wasn't there to be a sketch artist like i'm a long-form writer so i was like i might as well like these improvisers are fascinating and i think i was like craving a deeper relationship with my own subconscious because it's like improvisers can just drop in like they walk on stage and they say the first thing that comes into their head and it turns out that that's also kind of the first thing that's in that person's head.

And there is just like this amazing connectivity from the collective unconscious if you're good at it. I was never good at it. Like I wasn't at the point yet where I was ready to be that vulnerable. So like I was the person who would like walk on stage and kind of like pretend I was making it up on the spot, but I'd already been thinking about it, which is like pretty much like antithetical. And I'm like quick enough on my feet, but I'm not really a good actor. So it's interesting.

Like I often have ideas for things, but like I can't execute them myself. Like I think if I was ever to be involved in performance, I would have to be a director or a screenwriter or something that was like behind the scenes. But yeah, it was enough of an experience to have a taste for it and to know how to write it and to understand like the basic skills. And I think like I love to be, I love to like infiltrate communities. like I love to be involved even if I'm not like this like I'm actually happiest if I'm not the star of the show. So it was amazing to get to like be a part of these groups and like learn about how these people's minds worked.

And like how that functioned in their art. And then I kind of put it away for 10 years. And it wasn't until I was starting to think about like how would this connection work. Like I want to have this. I want to have this bond that produces something cool like a cool art. baby i want it to have like a sort of like telepathic like intuitive connection and like as i was sort of like like thinking about what i wanted it was like they they're improvisers like that must be what this is and so that was sort of how it like percolated back into my life that was so cool

it's really fun oh my gosh it makes total sense because of how many layers this story has too like you like you have this background but it's also like you balance writing you know the beautiful parts of the story like the chemistry and the love and the yearning but you also write grief and trauma and illness and you know difficult dynamic so beautifully so the fact that like you have so much like writing knowledge and acting knowledge and you know improv and like it just it's so cool that you wanted to like deepen the writing experience and like go learn more about that I just think that's so cool that's so unique. Oh, that's wonderful. Emma, thank you. No, that's just so mesmerizing. I'm like, oh my gosh, it makes perfect sense now. Interesting. So one of the things I love about Avatar, the Last

Airbender, which is one of the shows that inspired into the blue, the show in the book, is that there is like a lot of dogma around like borrowing different disciplines for your own bending and I feel like that's very much my approach to writing is like I want um I want to strengthen my writing with stuff from as much other things as I can yeah yeah that's so cool that it even ties into that part too and that was something that I was kind of wondering about like just like when you have all of these like all of this background knowledge like between like the improv and then like your experience as a writer like you said you had a lot of like desk books and things like that. And then also working and publishing, like, how were you able to balance

like how much time you were going to spend on each thing like in the book, like, especially when you're grappling with, like, grief and all of the other, like, deeper aspects beyond like the improv, like, how did you decide, like, how much time you wanted to spend on each element of the book to create the overall story? You know, I love that question because I have that question too. It's interesting. So the two books that I've really like gone the distance on, meaning I've like written them. I've worked them in the editing process and then published them. Really both kind of opened up. Like I was like wandering around in a desert and then like a road opened and it was like, I can take this road somewhere and like really go. And in that experience, you're sort of surrendering.

like you are following the story, you're taking down what you see, and sort of allowing for the story to use you. So it's like I believe in structure. I certainly believe in structural editing. I consume a lot of stories. And I have memorized like the arc of a story in my bones from being a huge reader and like consumer of films my entire life. but during the actual writing process, I'm sort of trusting that bone knowledge to come through. And I also trust myself on the back end to go back and adjust things. So when I was like drafting, I was just drafting. And it's interesting in my first book, I had much more the mentality that you're sort of thinking of like, like, there must be a right way to do this. Like I'm going to like, you know, use the perfect number of chapters.

it's going to be perfectly structured. And it is. It's 100,000 words. Each chapter is 2,000 words. They're 50 of them. They're pretty much all even. And it was like this exercise and like I have this story. It's a two year arc. These are the number of words I have and I have to tell the story within this number of words. Into the blue was like the complete opposite. It's like, you know, Luke getting ready to like drop the bomb inside the Death Star and like the visor goes up. Like into the blue was like like all of the guardrails are coming off. So you can see that it's like it's not written in chapters. It's written in parts. And my whole thought was basically just like, I'm going to do this by feel. And I'm going to trust myself. And it came out very long. Like the version that's been published is not the

version that I, that was done just me instinctively. Like it did require guardrails eventually. And my editor and agent and publisher all came in and lent their expertise to it. And I also sort of like came correct with myself about certain things about like, you know, wanting it to be like there. I think there are things in the writing process that are fun for the writer and not necessarily fun for the reader. So like I'm so happy to hear that like all the acting parts work for you. That was such a labor of love by so many people because like I had so many acting exercises in this book. Because, I really wanted it to feel like their crazy psychic connection wasn't crazy. Like I wanted it to be built meticulously in front of the reader so that we wouldn't like

question all of the stuff that happens later in the book. And it turns out the reader is willing to like, you know, go with it without like my new step by step instructions. But it was so that was like an interesting process. But yeah, like figuring out to go back to your actual question was like how much time did I a lot. How much time did I invest in it? It's like I I basically had to just surrender and be like however long it takes, whatever the story needs. And as far as like balancing everything else, like, you know, it's interesting when you have a really good idea that you're really passionate

about, life kind of rearranges around it. Drafting for me, that sort of like like hurried, passionate a takedown process where you're like following the road is is quite quick editing takes forever like going through and being like is each and every sentence of this book something that I am proud of like if the Kirkus review extracts this one sentence out of context and prints it am I going to be embarrassed and it's like you have to you have to sort of ask yourself that for every sentence like whether it's a sex scene or a fight or just like a random description that takes forever so With that, it's like, it's a lot of nights and weekends. I have a very patient spouse who is very good at entertaining himself. And it's just like very, very patient. Because like, I think part of it too is like, if I was honest about how long it would take, I would never get out of bed in the morning. So it's a lot of like tricking yourself to be like, I'm just going to work on this for like 20 minutes. And then you come out and it's been five hours. And I think a lot of that is like, I don't, I don't look at. at the clock while I'm working. I don't have any awareness of how long things take me, which I think

is by design, because otherwise, again, otherwise it would be incredibly discouraging. So all in all, like, I started this book in July of 2023, and we locked text in November of 2025. So all together, two years. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can feel that in the story that like you did live in it and really like develop the characters and everything that they were doing um we're not going to talk about the reveal about halfway through but in terms of like the synopsis yeah the story talks about you know they kind of like you're talking about the AJ and Noah really developed this really intense bond by practicing improvs together and they get very close um and then Noah just disappears one day and then seven years later

they're basically on a set together is kind of how they kind of get forced forced back together um when did you know that like that was where you were headed like did you like because i know you said you kind of met noa first but it's like what what kind of got you the point where you knew like the plot points i had been kind of gathering things like i like sometimes i feel a little bit like a scrapbooker where I'm like I have a bunch of like things in my head I want to try and so by that when I started when I started drafting in July of 2023 what I knew I knew Noah and I knew his arc and like that reveal that you're referencing that we're cryptically hinting at that everyone should just go read the book but it's I knew that from the start that was always

perfect I knew I wanted them to work on a show together and I wanted the relationship to have a mirror in the show. So the improv, it was part of the bond, but it was also shooting a show is very boring. It's scripted, it's not necessarily filmed in order. You're not following a story potentially, and the actors aren't making up what they say. So you can have incredible chemistry between actors,

and I think about books like Evelyn Hugo, but it's like that book, all the drama, the drama is pretty much like offset like it's not them in the scenes together it's like they're on the set like in craft services like they're not actually acting out their feelings and i really wanted them to act out their feelings so the improv was sort of a way of like like wedging that in where it kind of didn't belong yeah so i knew i wanted that and and and i knew i wanted to do the plays at the end I didn't know how it would fit together. So part three, I was like, I was, I was like, I'm pretty sure they're going to go to conventions.

Like, I knew the trajectory of the show into the blue. Like, I knew it was going to be one season. But I wasn't sure why they were going to go to the conventions. I wasn't sure how it all connected. So I had these sort of large set pieces. I wanted to try. I wanted, I wanted them to, like, I wanted the end to be these 12 performances. where they would be like working through like the ultimate questions of their relationship.

And the rest were sort of like, how do I get there? Um, figuring it out as I wrote my way through it. So I had like guide posts, but I had no idea like how any of it would would get together. And I didn't know how the real, I didn't know how the story would end. Yeah. Like I didn't have this conversation through the plays, but I didn't know what the like ultimate conclusion would be. Right.

Well, I loved the conclusion, but I won't talk. about it. I couldn't tell where it was going either. I think that's part of what makes like if anyone has seen anyone talking about this book, you frequently see people's like weeping their way through the last 25% you really don't know the whole time you're reading. You're like, what is going to happen? That was very heartbreaking, but also like just so beautiful at the same time. Yeah. Do you guys have any? other year for it you and you kind of touched on publishing and you know I wanted to touch on that a little bit so you're published through thousand voices through jennabash hager and you're also a rase's book club

book yeah like just i mean we have right behind me um like that's just unreal that you have both of those and i mean like what has that experience been like like it just looks like through the media what I've seen online, you've had so much support not only from readers, but from, you know, like the publisher and also like Reese and like there's just been so many like magical posts and everyone's been saying such kind things. Like what what has this experience been like working with Jenna and Reese for you? It's been incredible. Like you can go your entire career without ever having a book and a publication and a campaign like this. So like, and I'm very aware of that like working in the industry so that and like the the gratitude is crazy like this was so not

what happened on my first book so again it's like I feel just unbelievable appreciation because like you you literally can write like 10 15 books and never have this happen so um I'm I'm still sort of pinching myself like it's really crazy because our original pub day was July 14th so we moved the book to April because that's when the Reese picked what they had like an open slot. Oh. So it's really crazy because like we're having this conversation on June 18th. The book shouldn't have come out for another month.

Wow. So we were told in January and it was like this sort of like immediate pivot. So the whole year got rearranged and I wake up some days. And I'm like, I can't believe all this amazing stuff has happened. And then I wake up some days and I'm like, wait, the book's out. So it's really, it's been, it's been crazy. Yeah. So Jenna is a part of my book team, which is amazing.

So I met her a couple years ago. We've worked together like fairly closely on both development and like packaging, which is the cover. And then also just like the marketing piece. So I had a long time to get used to the idea of like having to go on TV to promote the book. And like it's it's scary, but it's also like again, loving these characters the way that I do. It's like this is the best opportunity for them. So I will do whatever I have to do. And she's a pleasure to work with. And I really respect and admire her taste. So that's been

phenomenal. And it's like I say this in the best way. It's like sometimes I forget that she's Jenna because she's just like that down to earth and like real about this. And it's like, I say this. like she's super serious and I am super serious about these these characters so it's like it's just been a great mind meld um the Reese piece is like this amazing amazing boon that happened in the last 10 weeks before we pubbed um oh my gosh it's like it's so like to get that phone call is wild and I just was like I did because we had Jenna I didn't even think we were eligible for a book club so it literally wasn't even on my radar. Whereas like I remember with my first book, like you're hoping beyond hope that you'll get

picked up for one of these book clubs, especially as a debut when no one knows you are. And so it was like this was the exact opposite experience where I wasn't, it was not even on my mind. And then it was like, yeah, you're moving on to April 7th, which is like a pretty crowded pub day. And it was like, all right, we're going to do it. We're diving in. We're going to do this. Wow. They're great.

Like it's these amazing women. they work out of an office in LA and just like the most supportive kind like I went out there the week after we published to just like film some content and meet them and they were so great and I had like I had an event at the Rip Baudis in Culver City and I was really nervous that no one was going to go and they like all came which was so sweet like he didn't have to do that so it's just like these like really passionate book lovers and they were amazing and it was it was this like dream month So yeah, it's, it's been really a really interesting road. Like normally you get maybe two weeks of publicity.

And we, I basically feel like I got to have like two circus tents. And the Reese tent packed up at the end of April because like they have to go on to their may pick. And I'm still like the the Thousand Voices tent we're still promoting into like next month, which is amazing. So I'm still at the circus. It's been like, it's been, it's been, it's been. it's been surreal and amazing and like like I don't even know like when I'm going to begin to process all of it like I'm really happy I have a day job because it's very stabilizing like I've

been working this whole time so it's like there there are hours and hours a day where I'm not thinking about any of this and then I sort of emerge and I look at my social media and I'm like oh right this is like this is all happening and it's been it's been really surreal Wow, that is so special. And I feel like what people don't know, and I didn't know this, how many years it kind of takes to put a book out there. Like you mentioned you met with years ago. Yeah. Like that is so wild.

And then it's funny, like you got the phone call with Reese like a few months or weeks before. And I just like what a timeline. You know what I mean? And I feel like if you're not in that industry, you just don't know. But it takes so much to put a book out there for the writer, for the publishing. team for the publicity team for everybody. So it's just so cool to hear you like talk about that. But it's also interesting how like you have your day job. And then you know, you hop online and you're like, oh my gosh, I have this book. And it's, you know, it's just like skyrocketing. And it's

beautiful and all the things. So I think that's so cool. And how has that been like navigating, you know, working during the day and then also writing and also staying afloat in like the media and doing your publicity things? Like how do you do it? How do you do that? I'm saying. It's, again, very supportive husband. I have helpers. So I have an amazing assistant at work. I have an amazing woman who helps me with my social media.

And, like, I just try to, like, spread myself as intelligently as I can. So it's, and it's a pleasure. Again, it's like, it's sort of, It's having two jobs for sure, but like the book stuff, just everything I get to do for these characters and for this book is like my absolute pleasure. Like there's nothing that I wouldn't do for them. And I miss them. So it's like it's strange. It's like I feel like this part of the process, you're like a parent who's like dropped their kids off at college.

And like they're off like at orientation like doing their thing. And I'm like in their dorm room like weirdly tidying up. And it's like I need to leave. But like I sort of like can't. So it's like it feels nice to stay connected. And yeah, I think like, like, a lot of it is like I live very simply too. Like I don't like I love people, but I move to an island so that I don't have to socialize with them. And I really keep to a pretty, so I have a very social day job.

Like I'm constantly on. Like I have tons of meetings. And so then at night like I really, I like we walk our dog. I come home. I eat dinner and I work. And that makes me happy. Like I love to work. Like that is, it's, I should probably like think about some other things because you can't

just write about writing. Although I'll cry. But yeah, it's, it's a lot of like, I have help and also like time budgeting and just not. I don't like, I rarely travel. I don't like, I don't spend a lot of energy on like social stuff. personally so sure yeah and like if that's what makes you happy then that's what makes you happy like i feel like i'm kind of like an introverted person and i just can't imagine like doing all the traveling and stuff like that would be overwhelming and so i think it's special that you're like i have this life

and i'm very happy doing it i think that's so special that you also get to revisit the characters and that too like and i'm sure you've reread the book of course and like taking other notes and all the things and like I just uh they're just so special so I just love that whole experience and then you were talking about Jenna how she's just so down to earth and she cares so much about you know what she's doing with freedom with Jenna and everything and I just think that's so special to hear because sometimes I'm sure people think like are these do these people like care about the books they're putting out and everything so it's just so like it's just so great to hear that like everybody's just so down to earth and so great to work with too yeah no she's real like very

passionate about books for sure and i love watching her like i've been such a lover of the today show and like all of her picks for years like i just read june baby by shannon garvey so good and that was yeah that was a good one and it was her debut right yep yeah so special because i saw you guys did an appearance together was it in nantucket or martha's vineyard hand tuck it yep yeah so fine that's so cool. But it was cool. That's so fun. I think it's, I also love work and have been in, I was in therapy.

I'm aware that there's, it's what I will just gravitate toward. And I think it is good to remember, you know, like don't burn yourself out if, or don't stay in a place of being burned out. But I also think it's awesome to have more women talking about loving work. Because it was making me thinking, this is not a spoiler if you haven't seen it. But in the DevWare's product. too. Like there are so many like fun elements to it. But like at the end, they're kind of talking about something. And she says, uh, you do, you do have to sacrifice other stuff. If you, if you love your job.

And she says, but, but I think she says like, but damn it, don't you just love working? And I like got choked up in the theater. That was the thing that got to me in that. Oh, I need to see it now. Oh, my God. It is fun, especially when it's stuff that you know is fulfilling for you. Like, I think it's, it's such an exciting thing to be able to say you actually love your work. And, like, there are worse things that you could love. Exactly. Yeah, it was really powerful. I love that. I love working to. Yeah. You went into all the devil wars fraud, too, too, didn't you? Yes. Yes. I'm like the only person I've been dying to. The Emma's need to go. I never went on Emma party is level worst prodig.

Do you have any other questions, Kara? Yeah. So I'm kind of curious, just like, so you're still working like in publishing, like, outside of like writing. What is like, and you're doing it at the same time, which like in my brain that I feel like that's a lot. I'm assuming it is. So like how do you navigate like balancing like being on the like kind of like behind the scenes like side of the publishing world and being like an author that's like actively has a book that's like big right now like in like full of like promotion and there's a lot of like buzz around it so how to what does the balance like look like I guess it's um it just looks like me being on email a lot like to be honest it's like if a if a camera was to

follow me around all day it would largely see me like going from like computer to phone to computer to phone to walk around the block. And so, yeah, it's, it's trying to be as available and as responsive to everybody as possible. Like I, I have actually had the experience of having my editor publish a book and I know that it can be nerve-wracking. So I try, the only way you can combat that is just to like continue to show up and be there. And I was interested in this experience because like I have published a book before. So, but as we've talked about it wasn't as big as this.

So, you know, I put in five years between where it's very clear that I'm still very committed to my job. But it's like no one expects this and no one can know. Like no one can know about the book club in advance. Like we're all pretty much sworn to see for see. So there's definitely an adjustment period. But my approach is just to try to like show up and do a good job and be as committed to everything as I can. And I think it's a lot of like glass balls, plastic balls. like you're constantly evaluating like is this a ball that will shatter on the floor if I let it or is this

something that has a little bit of elasticity and if I if I put it down for a little while is it going to be okay and I think there are absolutely like I haven't my parents have been amazing about this like normally I would say I go visit them like twice a year and they have come and seen me do book promotion which is amazing but because of the schedule shift like I wasn't able to go down there earlier this year. Like I've just had to sort of stay chained to my desk. And I think psychologically, like going from like the headset of like, I'm the surgeon to like I'm the patient, which is I think what it's a little bit like going from writer, author. It really helps that the books that I work on are not directly competitive with the book that I'm publishing. So you can see some of my titles

behind me. Tis The Not Me is an illustrated guide to dating that's that looks like an illuminated manuscript. It's by an author called Claris Tudor and it's like the funniest thing I've ever read my life. The secret language of Victorian jewelry is amazing. It's coming out in August. It is this guide to all of the jewelry motifs and gems, what they meant in Victorian times and how they still kind of influence our culture. And it's like hyper illustrated. It's gorgeous. It's foily. It's a gift book. Like you would want this book on your lap while you're watching the other Bennett sister because it's like you can see like oh that's why they made Caroline Bingley wear those earrings like it's like it's all coated and it's very cool um the other one is how lucky am I

by an author named Christian Watson and this is this is going to be a big book next month so it's a it's a guide to sort of like existential awareness by this character mr. Skelly who you've probably seen online but that's what I publish so I'm not like plotting out novel characters or plot points or great mystery. It's it's like reference books and gift books and joke books. And it's fun because I get to learn about all these topics from these experts. And I'm kind of a sounding board. But it's not the development process is nothing like what it is for fiction. And the publishing process is also really different. So I have worked at imprints that published trade books and it's misery. Like it's misery to sit in a room full of fiction.

editors and hear about all the competitive titles and hear about, you know, the advances and all that stuff. Like I, I did not enjoy that and I did it for seven years. But where I am, yeah, it was two different jobs and they were great in different ways, but like that piece of it was really challenging. Yeah. Whereas like where I am right now, which is Clarkson Potter, it's part of Crown, I am in a little like pod of all cookbook and illustrated editors. So, The only thing we discuss at work is books like ours, and I love it. So I have, I have figured out and had to like recalibrate over the years, like a day job that I think is sustainable, because it's absolutely important to work as a novelist. Like, this is not a steady paycheck.

And I think, too, having a paycheck means that I can take risks with my ideas. So I'm never, I never have to, as long as I have another stream of income, I don't have to, if I want to do something weird and write a book about a space whale, I can do that. And it's like, yeah, there might be some obstacles. But if I'm, if I really believe that space whale is important, I don't have to, I don't have to curb my creativity because I'm like nervous about not selling the book. Like, if the book doesn't sell, I have a paycheck that I can fall back on. So I would read your sail. I was going to say, I'll read it. Well, bug, yeah, it'll go right next to this one. Yes. It's interesting, and I'm glad you're saying that, especially for anyone who's listening, who, like, does want to write. I think it is so important to at least know that. Like, even if you have a really big one novel that goes really, really big, you just don't know that it will with the next one. And I just saw Rashid Newson last week.

He was here in Indy. And he, his book that's out right now is called, there's only one sin in Hollywood. And it's about a black gay man in the 50s. I feel bad. Close to that time period. And he was saying the same thing where he works in like writers room, like the shy and Bel Air. Like he's been in lots of different writers rooms.

Yeah. And he like says it's so vastly different for him because like this is like writing for TV. There's like the whole production valid, like costs, way more costs associated, way more like golden handcuffs on everything. Yes. But he still gets to kind of work

within that. And he didn't even write his first novel until he'd been working in writers rooms in L.A. for, I think, close to a decade before he started his other. But he was saying the same thing. His debut as my government means to kill me, which is about

the AIDS crisis and told from the perspective of a black gay man in New York. And he was like, if I had, he was like, if I didn't have this other salary, I would have to start thinking about making my books a little more commercially viable. Yes. And he's like, and I love not having to do that. So I think that is important for especially aspiring writers to hear to you. I think it's, it's good too. Like I don't think I've, I'm 37. I don't think I've absorbed everything I have to absorb. about humanity at this age. So having access to all these like really smart people with really

strong personalities, like that is great for a writer. And I think so far I've been able to make it work. Like, like I, you never know, but I worked really hard to get myself into a role that felt sustainable, that felt like I can do this for like however long I need to. And I love this company. it's my second time working for Potter and um it's interesting like I think there is a prejudice that if you have to have a second job you're not a success and I just I think that's really silly like we don't live in Medici Italy anymore it's not like we can have like a patron come in and like put us like apartment like I don't it's just um like we all have different goals and different different responsibilities and I think like to me it's like my one of my responsibilities is to my art so

like being able to take care of that and not have my art be burdened by financial things that said I am a very commercial person like one of my strengths is like if you were to put a boy band in front of me I would tell you who the breakout is with like a hundred percent accuracy. Yes I believe it. So like I'm not like I have no like I like I have no like I like I love commercial stuff. Like I am 100% commercial girly. But it's more just like like time pressure and like making sure that things yeah right. And it's like I think one of the things that I feel the most nervous about coming out of Into the Blue is like wanting to make sure that I can continue to deliver something that's like rich and satisfying and like do it in a good time frame. Because it's like,

I will sacrifice the time frame if I can't get the feeling right. And I don't want to have to, but I will. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. Well, since you were kind of discussing art form, we've kind of talked about it, but obviously there's this way that like their AJ and Noah's relationship is kind of,

it even develops like in scenes, like you kind of mentioned. Was there anything like that kind of surprised you about writing that part? And I also thought it was kind of interesting. I feel like you were touching on how like sometimes actors actually feel more themselves when they're acting because you kind of get this like separation. So maybe it's a little easier to be honest with yourself or something like that because you're like, oh, I'm doing a character or I'm performing. So was there anything that kind of surprised you about writing those scenes and like having so much of their relationship in the scenes? so much surprised me like they really like at a certain point were so beyond me and I was just like trying to keep up um I think it's I think it I'm always looking for like moments of intense truth and one of the things I think is so interesting about theater and one of the reasons I think writers are so drawn to it is because it's sort of this like Schrodinger zone where you can like have your characters do things and they're relieved from responsibility. Like you like writers often

will do like a drunk scene where like the character says something but then they can take it back. And I think stuff that's done on stage is really similar where you can say it, but it's like, was it them or was it the character? So you see people getting to like toe in in a way that maybe like their real self isn't developmentally ready for yet, but they can sort of play with that. And then another theme in the book is chronic illness. And so one of the things I wanted to to play with is how life can become a performance when you are dealing with an ongoing issue. So part of what happens as you move through the book is like, and this is true in the first section and in the last section and in the sections in between.

It's like there are times where what's happening on stage is like their release and they're actually like letting out their real emotions even if this even if the circumstances are imagined. And then there are times where like life becomes the performance. and they have different levels of awareness of that depending on how close they are and how mad at each other they are and like they're not always totally transparent to each other. And I think I think a lot of that is like it's truth about what it's like to be in an ongoing relationship, but it's just in this sort of like heightened circumstance where you can like really see it. But a lot of the time we're grappling with like the fact that you can never actually

know 100% what's in another person's head. Yes. I happen to read this shortly after I saw the drama. That might be lost on some people, but it sounds like not us. And I was having that same thought where I'm like, it is really fascinating the different ways that you can like come at the fact that you never, you never completely know anyone, even if you're about to marry them, even if you've been married to them, like life just happens even sometimes. Yes. Yeah. It was crazy. Yeah. And you wrote, like, getting into kind of like fame, famous characters, like, you know,

when Noah kind of like takes off and then they both do, it's like you wrote, you know, characters with fame so well. It didn't feel, you know, it just felt very real and it didn't feel downplayed. And these are two characters with very real emotions who have very intense love and deep care for one another. And I just thought you portrayed that so well because I feel like sometimes people or can write famous characters and it doesn't always feel realistic. But this truly did feel so realistic. And I think that's why I was like, I was just so touched by that.

I was like, oh, my gosh, this does all feel so real between like the chronic illness. And like people who struggle with that, I've just like, oh, wow. It just left a mark on my heart. So I just thought it was such a beautiful job well done. Yes. Yeah, I think sometimes fame is one of the things I talk about that sometimes can feel like a gimmick in a book if it's underdeveloped. And that might be kind of what you're talking about, where sometimes it's like, oh, it takes place around famous people or just like, oh, it's in LA. So it's. Yeah. Hollywood adjacent. It doesn't always like connect. And that was not what happened here. I feel like it's just like a testament to how you like have said that you've spent so much time with. characters that they're not just like famous characters and it like just like proves like the point

of the book and like the whole like over like arching like theme of like there's like human nature and like being a person outside of just like an actor or like your job and I just think it's just it's just so beautiful yeah it's like we're all human at the end of the day like we need to take care of one another when we can and I feel like AJ AJ Noah they're just the perfect they're the blueprint for that yeah they are do you guys have any other questions i have like one other one oh go for yeah we're not going to talk about the ending but you said you didn't quite know where it was going did you ever write multiple versions or was it like you didn't know but then once you got there you're like oh this is it uh the second so nice yeah so i had been working on the book for about

months my first draft and I knew like it was working up to these performances yeah and that's not a spoiler it's like in the introduction of the book right um and I was like gearing up for it gearing up for it and there was like a lot of chaos that week um just like in my neighborhood and in my world and like work had been really crazy and I like needed time to just go and like lay this egg and so what ended up happening was, I think it was like a Thursday or Friday night. I think it was a Friday night because I like, yeah, I stayed up until like three in the morning and I wrote the performances in like one sitting and yeah. Like I wrote the entire end in like one sitting. So everything that happens like after the final show, everything on stage, all of it, it was like watching this unfurral like

the phone call. I didn't know. I was like, I was like, who. who's who is calling right now. Like it was like it was crazy. It was like one of those amazing transported artistic moments like I'll never forget that night. Um, and then it ended and it was like, it was like, yep, that's, that's it. So it wasn't, it really didn't, I wasn't like, it's interesting because I can see my own handprints all over this book. Like I can see all of the places that these characters and their story like brush up against me as a person. But the way that it is layered and the way that all of it sort of comes together, some of that is very hard work in elbow grease. And some of it is like just this complete surrender process where there's no way that I could consciously do this if I tried.

Like it's just getting into that zone and like letting letting the story move through you. And it's like it's so special and it doesn't happen that often. And I think the sacredness of that is part of what makes one brain. enough to then like push for it and fight for it and it's like it really does feel like a strong like almost like maternal bond well and then the opposite you kind of mentioned it the book does open up with like this little peak of those performances was that one of those things that you decided on like after you'd written it or did you like write that and then started writing part one oh that is the opposite that is um we did like 40 different openings oh wow um

I could we could not figure out how to start this book to the extent that like we wrote like I wrote that scene we also had another version of the opening that took place like quite literally half an hour later in the timeline like like the the book opens like right before dress rehearsal and we also did one that was like right after dress rehearsals like I tried at SNL like I my original opening of the book when I submitted it was them reconnecting on stage at UCB after seven. years. So that version exists too. Like there I did one that was like like avoiding spoilers. It's like there's like a funeral in part four. I did one of the funeral. Like it's like I have so many versions of that opening. Okay. And ultimately this one, my editor had sort of targeted in on like the performances. She's like, I think it needs to be in part four because this is such a long book. We want people to have a sense of the whole arc. Like we want them to have this thing that they're like tracking where it's like, okay, we haven't hit that point yet, so we know there's more, which is very smart of her. And, like, really it came down to, like, blocking.

Like, I wanted it to be this thing of, like, he pulled him pulling her up on stage, which is, like, a symbol of, like, their entire story. Ultimately, like, this one just sort of felt like sort of a visceral snippet. I liked the way that it came out. Like, I liked the way the writing came out. And, yeah, like, we just wanted to have a little, like, taste of what was to come. So I really, that's, that's like, I was so snowblind by the time we did that. Like, I'd been through the whole book so many times.

And, like, it's like, from what you're saying, it sounds like this resonated with you. Like, you know, you're living through years with these characters. So, like, I, like, didn't even know what day it was. And, like, I really trusted my team to help guide me. because it's like you just want to you just want people to like jump in like it's like I wish the book could have started on page 25 like setting up this story was like the hardest thing yeah and I think that was that was a lot of elbow grease and a lot of like craft and a lot of people helping yeah I love it how it came out though and you can say it without it spoiling anything really it is one of those

intros where like it does what you just said like it you kind of know like where things are headed but then also when you get to the end it like means something different to you and i think that's always really cool but it's still like the the book ends of the book still feel really like cohesive even though you kind of flip what you know i love that kind of symmetry like that's something i really enjoy it's like it's like so technically a j and noa meet when she's in a costume contest. And he's like handing out the awards and she doesn't know it's him because he's wearing a mask. And so they they meet on stage for the first time.

Like that is their actual like you meet you don't witness it. It's like told in summary. But so it's like she gets a Baskin Robin gift certificate as a prize for winning. And so like in the final conversation like I have Emily mentioned Baskin Robbins and then they meet on stage. and it's like I like that kind of I like there to be symmetry like I and obviously in a book about improv you have to have callbacks so that was one of the most fun things about going through the book so many times was like there are so many opportunities to like twist things together and like add in like references so that like hopefully it does reward a reread because it's like you go back and you now know everything and now suddenly you notice all this stuff um that's part of how I bribe myself to like continue to like continue to you to work through again and again. That makes sense.

I'm already making my reread of I'm already like planning it. I'm like I want to do it on audio book too and I want to read it as well. I'm in the middle of my reread on audio because I did the physical first time and I've been listening to it because I just love Julia Waylon as well. So amazing. Oh my God. She's a true artist.

Like she really is the real deal. And yeah, she she just this book really resonated. with her and you can tell. Yes, you can. Yeah. It's such a good job. Yeah. That was how I read it the first time.

So we'll see. I will definitely be doing some version of a reread. I already had it. I like planned my TBR for the year and I already had into the blue on there. But Kate was like, I read it like you have to read it. So I moved it up. I was like, okay.

We're going to like, we're going to like, we're going to read this as soon as possible. And oh my gosh, I have been telling everybody at the bookshop, like, our, my friend Kate, who actually works at the bookshop, she picked this for her book club for next month. And I was like, good pick. Yeah. I'm like, get me in there. Actually, I want to talk too. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it's like, it's one that you can recommend to a wide range of readers, I think is the really nice thing where it's like, I read more genres now, but even the like, why did he disappear? Has some of the same like suspense of a thriller.

It's not a thriller for anyone who's listening. Like it has that pull and plotting of a thrillers. Sometimes what I talk about with one of my friends. And it's, I like that it's framed as a love story. Like it's not super romantic either. I think it falls in that area where it's like easy to recommend to a lot of different readers, which is, you don't always find that. No, and you really do get.

so many different elements all put together and I think that's what makes it such a unique and special book like I don't think mark my words I will never find another book like this yeah it's everything in one and I just it really is a true work of art like when you were talking about like art in the art form earlier I was like oh my gosh just unreal unreal That was so special. I'm so gratified. Finishing this book, it was like one in the morning, and I have this little, like, corner chair in my library, and I just sat. It was like seven or eight minutes, just looked at the wall. I was like, yeah. So amazing. I was like, what? Yeah. My husband kept walking in,

and I was just crying more and more and more. And he was like, are you okay? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I called my sister. I called my sister. I was like, you need to buy this book immediately. I'm like, you need to get on this. Like, I need someone to talk to about this. Yes. Yes. Just crying in the corner. Yes. Oh, gosh. That's so good. Well, thank you. That's amazing to hear. It's amazing to hear because it's like, as you were saying, the timeline is so long. And I was alone crying with these people. I felt for like, very long time. And I honestly like the the crying is so funny to me because I know I never know what translates. Like I assume that all writers feel deeply for their characters and it's not it's not like it's not a one to one thing. Like I think it's like I'm constantly curious about like how many author tears does it take to get one reader tier? Yes. Like like I know the places that make me cry in the book and then it's like by the end which is when a lot of people start I'm I'm so numb by that point that it's like funny so it's like like I have to go so deep into the marrow and then other people

start to feel it so it's like I don't actually know like how I don't know how it works yeah but I didn't expect it to have this like wide resonance so I'm so I'm like very validated because I was a wreck like I love these characters and I was so immersed in their story and their grief and it was like you know it's like when you're writing, when you're writing any of these scenes, like when you're writing like a fight scene, it's like that mechanism that makes you want to like redo a fight where you get in a fight with someone and afterwards you're like, I wish I had said this. Yes. You get to do that with the characters over and over and over.

So it's like you have a vicious fight and then you're like, I could make this more vicious. You're just continuing to like go and go and go. And it's like I can remember this like one dinner time really specifically where my husband had cooked. And I was just like staring into the voice. because I'm going in my head and it's like he's very patient um it's like living in a house it's like that show ghost it's like you it's like i can see them he can't yeah and he just is like very patient and like how are they doing what are they doing green flags you're like well um right now like that's a great question uh well obviously we all love

it and I think I mean we were just saying it I do think a lot of different readers will enjoy this so if you're listening you haven't read it yet you need to go read it and then you can DM any of us maybe MO2 I'm sure because you'll need an emotional support friend when you finish it I did that I was like I need merch like that was me I was like I didn't come amazing but yeah i i loved it so much and i'm just i'm so happy we got to talk with you about it emma thanks for having me this isn't this has been wonderful i appreciate you all so much