Bookwild - It Takes Monsters by Mandy McHugh: Female Rage, Social Pressures and So Much Blood

Episode Date: November 15, 2023

This week, I talk with the Queen of Pop Culture References Mandy McHugh about her new domestic thriller It Takes Monsters.   We dive into the social pressures women face at work and at home, the temptation for women to try to look like each other, and how King Lear inspired her second book!It Takes Monsters SynopsisVictoria Tate has had enough of her controlling, incompetent husband Warren. But planning the perfect murder is more difficult than it looks. When the social event of the year, an over-the-top costume ball, is rescheduled for the date she has selected for her crime, Victoria has to scramble to make sure she will still be able to follow through. But even hours of listening to crime podcasts cannot prepare her for the next wrench that is thrown into her plans: Warren turns up dead by someone else’s hand.Now Victoria finds herself at the center of a murder investigation in which she is actually innocent. The real killer taunts her, making it clear that they knew what she was planning all along. With the police closing in and her neighbors turning on her, Victoria is going to lose everything she had hoped to gain from Warren’s death, unless she can figure out who wanted her husband dead and why. It turns out that Warren was better at keeping secrets than she ever could have guessed. But which secret is the one that led to his death? And even if she can find the answers, does Victoria have what it takes to confront a real murderer? Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

For those of you who have been listening for a while, you would have heard one of my first guest, Mandy McHugh, who came on the show to talk about her debut book, Chloe Cates is missing, that I loved so much. And her second book just came out this year called It Takes Monsters. And I absolutely devoured this one as well. It is about Victoria Tate, who has had enough of her very controlling, incompetent husband Warren. and she basically decides that she's going to kill him. He has decided that she should basically quit her job that she loves and put a halt on her career and raise their children. And that's not what she wants. And because of a couple different circumstances, she thinks the best thing that she can do is kill him. So she spends all this time planning is going to do it at this gala.

and the night of the gala that she had planned to kill him, someone else kills him. And now she's in the middle of a murder investigation. The police are trying to figure out what could have possibly happened to her husband. And she's having to answer questions while also trying to figure out who did it. This book is so fun for so many different ways. It is snarky. It is suspenseful. It's a thriller. It's very much a psychological thriller. But the main character is just so fun, as you'll hear us talk about in this interview. I just absolutely adored it. And I loved that I got to talk to Mandy about her love of including pop culture references, the different pressures that women feel socially, be it at work or at home. And the ways that we struggle with trying to look perfect or look a certain way, especially in wealthier communities. So I can't wait for you to hear our conversation.

So let's get into it. So last time we were chatting, we were talking about your debut novel, Chloe Kate's is missing. And I'm super excited to talk about your second one. It Takes Monsters. So welcome back to the podcast, Mandy. Thank you for having me again. Yeah. So what is the biggest difference that you've noticed, like writing your second novel?

So since you debut, since you kind of got your debut, like, out of the way or however you want to say it, what's like the biggest difference that you've noticed? It's weird when people, it's not weird, but it feels surreal when people are like, I loved your first book. I can't wait for your second book. because, you know, there was a time where I was like, am I even going to write a book and like, who really cares what I have to say? No one's going to read this anyway. Like there's so many great authors out there. And then people are like, I love your writing. I can't wait. What's coming out next. And I'm like, oh my God, you people are reading what I'm saying. It's so fun. It's so surreal and like humbling and just like, I'm, I wake up every day and I'm just like, I cannot believe that I get to do this. It is so much fun. That is so cool. Yeah, it is so fun. Like, once you do get to know an author or, like, read something that you love,

then you, like, always are, like, super excited when they announce their next one. So it's fun on our side, too. So did you, was there anything different about, like, your writing and thought process going into this book than your first one? So I actually wrote, it takes monsters before I wrote Chloe Case. Oh, okay. So this was like the second book I ever wrote. And it was originally called Play the Fool and it was largely inspired by King Lear because I was like reading all my classics in the middle of the night when I was like feeding my kids and I couldn't sleep when I was a new mom. Yeah. So I had the original story for this before I had Chloe Cates. And Chloe Cates to this day is still the fastest book I've ever written. I finished my my first draft in a month. Wow. So I. I've never been able to do that since. Fingers crossed for this one I'm working on now. But when it comes to the writing process and what was different,

it takes monsters, went through several revisions. So the editing for it was much more intense. It was originally in three different voices and in first person. And I changed the entire thing to just from, Victoria's point of view in third person, which was a huge shift for me and I hadn't written in third in so long. So it took me a minute to like find my footing and like really get into the mindset from this perspective. But when I did, I really enjoyed it. So instead of it being a focus on just the conflict, it was like this character dive, but also knowing everything else

that I knew about where I wanted it to go, which did not end up being where it actually went. There are like five different endings for this. Oh my gosh. And I love the way it turned out and the one that made it to market. But like the writing for this was an experience because I genuinely didn't know where it was going to go half the time. And then when it did go someplace, it would get changed anyway. Oh, wow. Yeah, that is definitely a very different process then.

Chloe, Chloe had two endings that I, I toyed with. And I love how it ended. And I still think that I'm going to revisit it for the sequel that I'm still working on. That was one of my question. I was going to ask, you talked about it last time. So I was going to ask at the end, but I was like, is there still a sequel in the works for Chloe Kate? There is a sequel in the works. I'm still hoping.

I'm hoping to get it done in the next, like, month or so. Like it's going pretty well right now. Yeah. So yeah, I, you know, fingers crossed for that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's its own unique process. Oh, yeah.

What, so what was the, it sounds like it takes monsters kind of like shifted and changed as you were writing it. But what was your initial idea for it? Like, what kind of like hit you first? So I, it's funny. I was still very much in the horror genre when I started writing it. And so I was just going for like things that scared me physically. Like I was like Stephen King gross out factor. Yes.

And the scene in King Lear where he takes out his own eyes always got right under my skin because that is just such a horrified act. So that was really. the first image idea that I had for. It takes monsters. I'm like, I want something visceral and gory. And I don't want to do it in a way that's been done before, but, you know,

everybody wants to have the original idea. Right. But I knew I wanted like a family dynamic, and I knew I wanted there to be some sort of, um, relationship aspect for the murder and victim. I'm set up. But I took that idea of the eyeball gouging and I ran with it.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that that was like the touchdown because it is like the way I've described it. I'm like it's this like bloody, gory, snarky domestic psychological thrill. Like it does have all of it together. So even when you started off saying you like started off in horror, I was like, all right, that checks out. Yeah.

I just, and that's where a lot of my writing comes from is like I'll take something that I'm afraid of and I work from there. Like a lot of people have asked me about like what comes first, the story or the twist. And I am not somebody who ever really knows where the story is going to go. I'm still primarily like a pancer. I have outlined sometimes and especially for this one, like I really had to keep track of my thoughts because it changed so much. Yeah, but I will, I feel like my, my thrillers come from. this like organic place of either a nightmare fear that I had or just something that scares me on a daily basis. Chloe Gates was a lot of being afraid of what my daughter was going to encounter

with social media. And, you know, we were, we grew up with stranger danger, but it's really a lot more intense than stranger danger now because it's not just the trolls on the internet. You have to worry about, but the people that see you as a way to capitalize on your, your presence. presence and your persona. And then the one that I'm, the third book that I have out now is, you know, fingers crossed that that gets picked up too. Yes. But that one was inspired by a story I saw on the news where two women went to a bar

and one went into an Uber and never came home. And how many times I was in my, that situation. Like we didn't really have ubers when I was in college. But like just the, the every day, you know, I went to the bars with my friends and we didn't always go home together. And you're relying on somebody just to send you a text when they get home and sometimes they fall asleep or they don't remember. And it's just this very, it could happen to you type fear. It's so like that that hit me. So I always, I feel like that's just where my writing comes from. Yeah.

That's really cool because I was thinking about so with Chloe Kate, it really does explore what you're saying, like the dangers of social media, but also kind of like the struggles of like parenting amidst that. And then also it was like the, it's more of a cautionary tale. So it's also like diving into like what if like as a parent you kind of like lost touch with reality a little bit as your parenting. And then it takes monsters really. tackles like the social expectations that are placed on women based in work versus home life. And like what women are basically expected to give up. And one of my favorite lines is when she calls herself Warren's happy housewife and incubator. And like it's such a like literal

explanation of like what it feels like sometimes when people are like, when are you going to have kids like when the yeah and it's so prevalent and like so when i started having kids none of my friends are really in the same place that i was and they were you know they were fine with me having them but they were like career oriented right and you know i have you know years before i need to make this decision if it's even right for me and yeah but they were still getting asked the questions like when are you going to have kids and even i like i had a kid and they're like, when are you going to have another kid? Are you going to go back to work? You're going to stay home. And I took that and I was watching a lot of handmaids at the time when I was editing. And it's like the

fear of losing your choice to like form your own path and your own like this is what I want for myself. But like there's so many things that are out of your control and that that dictate what you kind of can't do. Yeah. And in this case for Victoria, it's not just the. her family that she has to live up to for her obligations there. It's her husband who, you know, seems like he wants to be her partner, but really he just wants somebody to listen to him and do what is told.

Yeah. Totally. And what's really fun about the book is how, like, we are trumping it up. Like most people wouldn't jump to killing their husband if he did that. Right. But what was so fun about it while you're reading it?

I think with a lot of like kind of like vengeful fiction as well. It's like it's fun to think of taking it to the extreme and like it's fun to kind of live through a character who's like truly being this snarky and this angry and is like, I'm going to kill my husband. So like how much fun were you having writing that character? So I'm a very sarcastic person by nature. So like a lot of that comes from me. But like if you're going for a thriller where.

you're murdering your spouse, it kind of has to be over the top because it's not like your go-to on an everyday basis. So I'm like, in her head, she has to like logic her way to this. Like I've exhausted. It can't be divorce and it can't be just I leave him. It has to be murder. Like, so I did like camp it up a little bit and went over the top. And I loved that. But I knew that I also had those like really dark moments with the gore and stuff. So I'm like, like I also need kind of like that Shakespearean counterpart of like the jester like I need the funny the comedy in it too. Yeah.

So everybody is just going to be either like completely over the top in their like Barnaby, like even his name Barnaby. Right. It was all just as a relief from it. And the sarcasm and various shades came from me and nipotepton. that showed from like the early aughts. I really liked the the two main characters there. And I'm like, I want that, but with women.

I want them to be like mean and horrible to each other and be vain and greedy. But I also want them to be kind of endearing in a sense because they're so unlikable. Yes. Yeah, I think it's like nice when we can, I was talking to someone about that. Like you get to like, happen to like the side of you that probably thinks those things sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And you're like, oh, this is like the fun of watching someone who like says those thoughts or like a pair of people who says those thoughts. Yep. It's like desperate housewives. Like I always loved the over the top of that even though I didn't watch it when it was on. And it's just like, you know, have fun with it. Get lost in it. Enjoy the like backhanded logic of murdering your husband makes sense.

sense. Right. So the only way I can get out of this. The only way to get out of this. Yeah, totally. So you just, you referenced a couple of TV shows there. And one of my favorite things that I just adored about this book is there are so many TV or movie, I think even other book references. Oh, yeah. I was just trying to highlight every single one when I saw them. Did you like happen to keep track of how many you fit in there? Or did you just kind of like, you just wrote all the final draft? So that is funny because my friends, like, I'm a human jukebox. So I, if you say something that reminds me of a song, I will spit out the song.

But I also speak in movie lines and TV shows. So like a lot of it is just me. And this like, as I'm writing and it like a word will remind me about a TV show and I'll just throw it in there for the character. Some of the Easter eggs that are in there were done deliberately. There are a couple little shoutouts to like things that I love or that my friends love. But I love reading books where like I get the pop culture references. Yeah.

And it just gives like a little extra nuance to that. Yes. Yeah, I love that too because when I was reading, you even had like a reference to like, well, this wasn't on my bingo card for the year, which is like a very TikTok reference. And it was making me think there was some TikTok reference you made in Chloe Kate's that I even talked to you about. And I was like, she just sneaks in all of these things. I love pop culture references in a book. Me too. Yeah, it makes it even more fun. Right now. Even on repeat in my head right now is the Jack Harlow song with the guy in the Rubik's cue on TikTok. Vanilla, baby.

It's on repeat in my head right now. I know. I was on TikTok for like 10 minutes while my dogs were outside this morning and I saw multiple of those videos already today. Oh my God. It's amazing. Never wanted to sell a Rubik's Cube so bad. I know. I'm like, can I figure that out? The book also like really in my opinion kind of takes a look at the way we should like fall in line with people or like act a certain way, especially in like really wealthy communities. And one of my other. their favorite lines is between the sisters and Victoria says, I like my face the way it is. And her sister says, resting and full of bitch. And she says, better than frozen and mass produced. I felt like that just encompassed a lot of it. Like, one, like, why doesn't matter if you have resting bitch face? But, like, two, like, all of this work that a lot of people put into just, like, looking the same as everyone around them. Yeah.

So were you trying to kind of like talk about that stuff too as well? I was especially coming from like the the nip-tuck dynamic because, you know, Teigen, her sister in the book is a plastic surgeon. And there's Victoria's side where she digs at her for not being a real doctor. So you've got like that, you know, that's a dynamic of like a woman in this doctor role, but she's still not good enough commentary. But then you get Teigen who is really. really just, she can't even help it how she analyzes people's features because she is very superficial about her appearance and her looks and the appearance of everybody else. So she talks about like Betty's breast implants and the, you know, there's tons of jokes about

lipo and nose jobs. But I definitely wanted to include that especially with like, you know, coming off of Chloe Kate's Teigen in the book has kind of like a Dr. Pimble Popper. channel. So it's still very much part of her life. And it's not just her. It's like, it's everywhere. I don't know what happened to my algorithm, but I will scroll through and I will get classic surgeons talking about celebrities who may or may not have had worked on. And even this morning, there was somebody that was talking about Taylor Swift's teeth and the procedures that she must have done in her veneers. And I'm like, this is where we are, where it's so normal to discuss the very personal work that people might have done. Yeah. And I find that very creepy.

Right. That it's just commonplace. Yeah. I feel like it's one thing if they want to talk about that they got it done. But like just talking about whether someone else did. Yeah, it's definitely weird. It's just another layer of pressure to feel like you have to look a certain way because these people are talking about it. So it's like, does that mean that I'm supposed to do something like that? like everybody is applauding her for having these straight teeth or these high cheekbones or like is that something like am i not good enough because of that and i really wanted to include that for tegan as part of her character it's just another way that she needs to like she might not feel the need to have children and a husband but she does feel the need to be perfect and that

10 and what does that mean for her yeah that's it's interesting that you brought that up about Taylor Swift too because I've been like most of the country following all kinds of stuff for like the last year that she's released and all of that and I love it but even I started to notice like the more she was in my feed on these like let's be honest staged pop walks like the longer I was looking at it then I was even noticing how I was like man my hair just like doesn't look like that like my hair I just can't I just always oh I wish I what do I need to do to make it look that way or like what do I need to do to have my skin look like that all the time? And it's like her skin doesn't look like that all the time. And I was like, okay, maybe I don't need to be consuming this much of like everyone's like most perfect versions of themselves.

Right. It's like it's not just them, you know, leaving to go to their car. There's the right, you know, the money that goes into and the, the team of people that goes into making me look a certain way. And, you know, even if a celebrity or makeup, artist, like, this is the exact product that I use and this is the exact way. Like, you don't have the same access to all of the skincare regimen. Like, it's just never going to be the same. No, it's not. But they want you to think it is. Yes. And they want you to think that you need to look like that. Well, it's just easy to start thinking that it is what like everyone else is walking around looking like. And it's just like, no, none of us are. Not many of us are, basically. Um, yeah. So I did, I forgot. I had a follow up question. to all of your TV and movie and book references.

I have, for a long time, I've always been like, oh, I'm just like a fan of stories, like no matter what medium it is. Like, I do just really enjoy stories. And so with the amount of references that you have, has that, like, always been a thing for you that just, like, story itself is really captivating? Absolutely. Yeah. I love this question.

I, like, if I think about the things that I, fell in love with as a kid. One of my favorite, first favorite shows was Are You Afraid of the Dark? And that's a different story every single week and the people that are telling the stories. I love that show and that was like really

when I started thinking about writing my own stuff. And even in like poetry, I gravitate towards poems that like will tell a story in a single moment and you get so much about somebody

just from like this one like anecdotal story in poetry form. So I love when there is so much in so little. So like if I throw in a movie reference, like it's not just to be, because I can't help myself. Yeah. But like it's then you think about the movie or the TV show or. or the other book and then it gets layered and then it's not just a line. It's a window into the character or into me. Yeah, right.

Yeah, you can definitely go both ways. That is you share some poetry often and that is what the stuff that you pull is exactly what you said or sometimes I'm like, wow, they really just said that in like two lines. And sometimes there was one time actually I was scrolling and I saw some, I saw a poetry and I was like, oh, I feel like me and you would really like that. And then it was one of those things wasn't looking and you had posted it. And I was like, oh, okay, well, I guess that makes sense. I'm not like super into poetry, but like the stuff you've been sharing, I'm like, I need to read some more poetry. It's been great for me. I really started to get back into it because I,

I loved it. Like, for a long time, I wrote it in college. And then I started segueing into short stories so I kind of stepped away from it but like when I'm really trying to pull for characters it's a great place to start because there's so many emotions and uh voices and sometimes I'll read something in somebody else's voice and I'm like that is my character right there and I will take it and just run with it that's cool I love that yeah that's really cool well to wrap things up I've been asking everyone what they've read recently that they've loved. Any genre? Anything. What have I? Every time I think about this, I go blank. I am currently reading The heiress by Rachel Hawkins. Oh, nice. That's going, that's really good so far.

Or if you've watched anything, too. Well, I'm still watching Fall of the House of Oshar. I feel like I've been like Code 6 crazy chaotic lately so my reading has been more like jilted than it normally has. Yeah. And I haven't been watching like any TV outside of reruns of Top Chef. So like my cue is super long. But like by the time I actually sit down because I don't watch TV during the day, but by the time I get to sit down with something, I've got like half an hour before I go to sleep. Yeah. Yeah.

That makes sense. I reread Anthony Brub. that Anthony Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential. Because I just, I love him. And it's such a well-written book. And I loved Christina McDonald's. These Still Black Waters. Ooh, I have not read that one yet, but I've heard really good thing.

The week before my book, it's so good. Ooh, I need to bump that up. I keep hearing people love that one as well. It is really good. Awesome. Nice. Well, thank you for being a guest again. and yeah thank you for having to wait for the next one always good to talk to you

i hope you enjoyed this episode of Between the lines and if you did the biggest thing you can do to support the podcast is to go rate and review it on whatever platform you listen on you can also follow me on instagram at the girl with the book on the couch and if you still need more thrillers in your life check out killing the tea my other podcast where i talk to my friend gare about literally everything we read