Bookwild - It's ALL That Deep (Or, Ranting About Anti-Intellectualism and Media Illiteracy) with MacKenzie Green

Episode Date: November 28, 2025

This week, MacKenzie Green is back and we dive into the complexities of pop culture, the deeper meanings embedded in modern media, how storytelling has evolved, the impact of anti-intellectualism, and the importance of critical engagement with entertainment.We discuss the intersection of identity and societal issues, emphasizing that every piece of content carries a message, whether overt or subtle, and the necessity of understanding historical context in shaping narratives amidst a growing trend of superficial engagement with media.We also share how finding and creating communities that value intellectual rigor and deeper analysis of art is has helped both of us, and how even if you don't align with everyone in your family, a found family can be just as powerful. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

this week i'm with mackenzie she is back home like some of you for um for thanksgiving week so i'm sure everyone is having all kinds of different weeks but we just always have stuff to talk about so i can't even totally tell you what it's going to be but it'll be about about some stories Yeah, it's something. Because I think it was always, I mean, it's funny because, you know, for the people that don't know, we were like, what the heck is this going to be about? And I think what's funny about Thanksgiving is it brings up a lot of stuff. One, for a lot of folks, you know I had to discover this through Taylor's show because I didn't know Thanksgiving was a battlefield for some of y'all out here. I was like, oh, yeah.

Oh, no, y'all are over here having like shouting matches with relatives, but it's like a mix of your either sitting at the table having like really heated, big. conversations or you're not talking about anything everybody talks around stuff and because like we've talked about everything has a deeper meaning yeah 90% now of like pop culture you probably can't even discuss at the Thanksgiving table and then the other part is like yeah it's that going home and like dealing with you know I'm an adult but I'm being treated like a child but I'm going like played yeah and you feel like yeah all of a sudden you're like dropped into a role that you're like oh i don't play this in my real life yeah like i have i'm jokingly the day i said to my mom like i don't know if you watch the show but i've been re-watching uh blackish

with my boyfriend because it's his first experience ever watching the show and i was like joking with my mom and i said being an adult feels like when zoe left the show to do grownish that like you are still a character you come back and visit but there is a main story that is happening without you every week and you're having your own spinoff show and then you come back like hey and the audience is like woo and you're like do i play the character i'm playing now on my spinoff or do i like go back to doing what i was doing before when i was full time on here so yeah it's like it's a wild time yes it is it's yeah there's a lot of just um not talking about anything that that's probably mostly what i

we'll be doing um but yeah it is sometimes you get around sometimes you get around the people i don't know why i'm acting like it's a spoiler alert that i don't talk to my family that has been spoken about so i like that right like actually i'm not going to have to deal with anything directly but when i was still going back there it would it was so the the differences were just so weird and then you do you just sit there and you just like talk about nothing nothing nothing nothing Yeah. Well, it's funny, we're a, we're a movie family for Thanksgiving. Like, we're very, we used to be very much like, you have the dinner, you go out to the movies. And it was funny because my mom and I were talking and she was like, well, do you think we want to do a movie this year? And she goes like, and I was like, oh, you love, let's go see Wicked, which side note, my mom and I saw Wicked on Broadway, this woman remembers none of what we saw. So what I was like, well, you know, and she goes, I remember nothing. We also for the people out there, we will get to the Wicked of things. But when I tell you, the Broadway show, Act 2 is the most chaotic thing ever. And my mom and I have the tendency when we experience things that feel silly and chaotic,

we can't help but egg it on. So when we were at that show, we were like, we were just like, what? Oh, my God. What my word. Like, we were so hammy in the audience because we were like, we don't know what's happening. But when she and I were talking about it, she goes, am I going to cry? And I was like, well, I mean, probably. because it's I was like and she was like oh I know because that song you and fish love so much for good and I go no it's actually there's a song in the middle of the show where in the middle of the movie where Cynthia sings about like there's no place like home and how difficult it is to live in a place that doesn't love you back but you love it so much and my mom's just like oh that seems heavy and then she goes I think we need to see that without the family she goes oh what else and I go there's running man and she was like okay well was that because I already saw it she was like how was that and I go you know you know

it's a fashion thriller about class warfare and she goes okay that seems a little heavy um what about zootopia too and i go well you know like i know zootopia is about racism and the police putting people in cages putting people in boxes and judging them based on theirs you know based on the content on the color of their skin or their animal phylum and she goes okay um what else can we watch and I go and then we were like joking she goes all right well then your aunt gets here we'll watch house wise Miami I go oh well this season we got really into uh white passing latinos and their complicity in the system and yes you know upholding racist ideology because there's a whole thing about ratchet versus ratchet goes all right okay next up salt lake city I go

no back out of there come out of there and she's like okay and it was like this funny thing where we were like talking about so much stuff that felt frivolous, I think, from the outside. But in reality, we were like, geez, at the core of every one of these things, like, I know. We were like, what can we watch? Or we, she and I were talking and I was like, oh, you got to read this book sky full of elephants. And like my cousin's like, what's it about? And mind you, I have a white partner. My cousin's wife is white. And I'm like, okay, well, that's about that's about a day where everybody wigs up and all the white people walk into the water. he's like, I'm sorry, I speak up and I'm like, I don't, mm-mm, don't ask me when I'm reading.

Please don't, please don't ask me for it. Like, it's just this funny thing where I feel like I exist in a space where like, it's not that frivolity and fun doesn't exist. It's like, it's that thing that Raphael Casal said about like the face vase. And I think it's like, and I'm hearing you kind of say the same thing where it's like, once you know the faces in the image and the vase, you can't not see them. You can't see them simultaneously. but you can't not look at it and go,

ah, face, and then look back at it and go, ha, face. And it's like, and that's what I feel like pop culture feels like right now is like, because you and I joke all the time about like this anti-intellectualism movement that people take so much pride in being like, I just love Sabrina Carpenter. And I'm like, no, I do too.

And they're like, she's just so fun. I'm like, yeah, but she's also really reclaiming like her sexuality. And there's a whole reason she dresses like like you know a polypocket and is doing this 50s pin up thing because like those women existed for like the lust of men and now she's doing all this kind of when the man's best friend cover dropped and people are like this is disgusting and i said so you've just listened to none of her music to understand that like what what this is supposed to to i know but it's like people who are the most upset were people who would be upset by that interpretation too is what

was so weird to me. It was so strange to me that I was like both interpret because it was the meme that you and I both loved or it was like either this album is going to be about like subverting the male gaze or she's a big old freak. Either way sounds like a fun album. Let's have a good time. Right. And it's like it's just

this funny thing where like I feel like there's such a there's such a desire for things not to mean anything. There's such a like a there's this weird almost pride people take and like enjoying things at such a base level that I'm like really that's fun to just be like and it was a movie about two witches goodbye and I'm like you don't want to you don't want to like you don't want to look at this get more into it like yeah it's fascinating I know because like

I just feel like even um even if we think of like just the big chunks of things that were missing in history classes for most Americans. So even if we like take that out of context or take that, think of people who like didn't continue their education past that. How do you not notice themes in like we were talking about that fantasy as a whole typically or like anything hunger games? Like how are you not picking up on it even if you don't know that it like happened here too? I've been thinking about that a lot because like Suzanne Collins made a ballot. of songbirds and snakes so sad. So, it was good.

Or no, Sunrise on the Reefing. I was like, cheat. Like, when I read it, was like, golly, did you have to, like, oh, I know. So, like, every death was so graphic. And somebody on Lide had, like, the best thread where they said, Suzanne wrote a book about, like, the future we're heading towards violence towards children and how we've, like, commodified it and made it entertainment, also like, the violence against each other.

And she was, and they said, and our sole takeaway was a love trying. So Homegirl decided she had to aggressively drive the message home. Because I will be honest, in a world, yeah, it's like in a world where Twilight existed, I think early aughts, mid-2010s, yes, people were still just making things that it was like, it's a thing, goodbye, enjoy sexy vampire time. But even then, it was written by a lady, a Mormon lady, who liked 50 Shades of Gray and made fan fiction. So it's like, Like, even then, you're ingesting and enjoying a piece of content that is born out of somebody who does not live in a sexually progressive space going, how do I get the fun of 50 Shades? Yeah. Without having to share this with my Mormon community and being embarrassed. I know. I'll write a Christian gray fan fiction where I guess he's a teenage vampire. I don't know.

It's just this funny thing to me of like, yeah, it's wild. And then sometimes you feel like you're going crazy because you're like reading the book or watching the show or watching the movie and going so you didn't see all that. I know. Am I reaching? And then you're like, and then you know, you and I, we go digging for like interviews with the director

or interviews with the auction. Yeah, like we're like, I know I'm not the only person that saw this and had that feeling. Mm-hmm. So yeah. Yeah, it's the best feeling. Sometimes when I'm at like 80% in a movie in the theater that I like know I'm obsessed with and loved. Sometimes right about that mark, I start to get excited to go home and watch everything about it.

I'm like, oh, this is one I love so much that I'm going to watch everything. I just thought about myself when I went to see now you see me. Because speaking of somebody who wanted to film, I freaking love those movies. Magic scares me. It's a long story, guys. I cannot explain it. for some reason, magicians freak me out. I'm like, witch.

Like, I know if I were to get in a time machine, I would have absolutely been in the crowd in Salem being like, which we should burn, maybe. Because, like, I freak out about magicians. I'm like, how are you doing this? I don't like it. Like, me and David Blaine, I hope I never run across him. He scares me.

It's too much. I don't like it. And so I go see now you see me. And I'm like, I love the, and I had said to my boyfriend, I love these silly magician movies. And I was like, I'm going by myself. I don't want you. with me. I love going to these. I love being

shot. And again, I'm having this moment. True. We also go solo. Yes. We love a solo movie. I love a solo date, period. Because I'm like, in this lifetime, I will spend more time by myself with myself than I will anybody else. And I'm like, so I

learned to like my own, truly. I love my own company. But I was dying because midway, I was like, oh, I love these little silly magician movies. And then, did you see the new one? Yes. okay then i'm going to spoil it sorry folks we'll put a spoiler warning but there is a moat with that moment when i was like oh this is about apartheid and and and the bar and the black child didn't have

ownership to the wealth uh it's not a silly movie i know yeah like all of a sudden i was just like uh we're having to trevor noa conversation okay all right i know i was so shocked by that too because mostly like Tyler looked at me at one point and he was like this feels like a Disney movie and I was like I know like this feels like a children's movie and then we hit that no I was like oh we're doing this again it's the Robin Hood thing we steal from the rich and give to the poor that's what the horsemen do what a fun formula I love it so cute and all this stuff and I was like oh we're doing the quips we're doing the fast talking like Jesse Eisenberg does his stuff and then there's a Gen Z version of Jesse Eisenberg doing a Jesse Eisenberg doing a Jesse Eisenberg doing a Jesse Eisenberg doing a Jesse Eisenberg impression back to him. Like the whole time I was like, oh, this is so cute. And then all of a sudden when I was like, at the end, I went, oh, everything is a thing. Everything means something because this is now a bigger movie about the child of the black maid to a wealthy family in apartheid South Africa probably or in some kind of like, you know, racing class. Yeah, it was like racing class and we're murdering people and we're deciding who's disposable.

to help versus the wealthy family. And I was like, oh, okay, everything is something. Can I ask you a really huge favor? One of the biggest indicators in audience growth and podcast popularity is ratings and reviews. I am always going to be growing bookwild and the range of guests that we're able to have. But the one thing that you can really do that would help grow bookwild is rate and review on whichever platform you listen to. And if you do rate and review, send me a screenshot because I would love to send you some book wild bookmarks now let's get back to the episode and i'm like looking at this older white guy next to me who would also come solo that was a whole other thing where i was like move down bro and i could see him have the turn where he went oh this isn't just a silly woody harrelson movie like

i could see he was having i was having me excited of like so this is i know it was made it more engaging yeah and then he was having like a awoke me i know my magician movie and i'm like sorry bro I don't know what to tell you. Yes. That's very similarly, and you've already mentioned it, that was when we left the running, man, I was like, there are going to be some people who come out of that and are like, why, they make it woke? That's what I am. So I went to see it in 40X. I love Glenn Powell.

This is no surprise. I am obsessed with him. I think he's so hot. When I moved to L.A., I told everybody who would listen. This is pre him really being a big thing. This was like 2019 when I knew I was just like in scream queens. He would only even in screen queens. I told one of my buddies at the time who worked at Warner Brothers, I go, Randy, I'm moving

to L.A. I'm going to meet Glenn Powell and we're going to fall in love. And he was like, and he truly was like, who is Glenn? Now my dude, he isn't like an exact at Warner. He's like, who is Glenn Powell? I go, the guy from Scream Queens. And he was like, the dude who played second to Nick Jonas? And I was like, I love him and I'm going to marry him. in one day. And wouldn't you know, when I moved in 2020, I'd go to Airworn for the first time. We're all like six feet apart on the dots with our mask on. And I hear somebody behind me being like, well, what are you going to get? And I kind of turned around because this person was clearly just trying to make conversation help people feel better. And when I turned around,

I was like, that's Glenn Powell. Oh, no. This is my moment. That's why also why I'm convinced I can manifest anything. Clearly. Now your girl, now your girl froze up. I froze up. And I was just like, I've never been here. I would. I just moved here. stopped talking to me and then just turned around and was like i hope the back of my head looks nice and i hope by the i hope once i drink this smoothie and my blood sugar goes up i will have the confidence to speak to him and i never did but i was so hyped to go and i knew nothing about the swartanager thing i love coleman domingo like the whole cast is like a group that i was like oh i love them let me watch this and then truly immediately i knew where we were going

when the woman from sinners walked in as his wife and I went oh because I just know as a black woman the choice of casting Glenn Powell's wife to be a black woman I said well that's a choice right that is that's a statement it's itself and I thought okay so like okay Glenn I see what you in the studio are doing I'll give you that and then it got going and I said they were subtle at first and then by the end they basically just everybody stared in the camera it basically went so y'all know this is about the 1% versus as everybody else, right? Yes. Cool. Great. And you know this is about propaganda that the 1% controls in regards to the media. Like all of a sudden I was just like, oh, so Glenn Powell probably has feelings about Larry Ellison trying to buy Warner Brothers and owning Paramount and Skydance.

And okay, I get it now. So sorry. Didn't know your vibes, Mr. Powell. I know. I literally turned my boyfriend in the middle of the thing and I said, oh, Ellison's never greenlighting a film like this again. Because it came out of Paramount. And I was like, they're never. never going to let them.

But it was the same thing you said where all of a sudden I was like, oh, no. Oh. Oh, this isn't a silly, a silly, silly, silly movie. And then I was, and then I was like, I want to go back and watch the 80s one because I was like, did Swartz a leader try to make a message in his? Like, it was. Yeah. It truly was. Well, and there are like so many, there's some like meta parts of it too is like.

Yeah. Stephen King wrote it in the 80s. Yeah. and it was then there's like this whole other thing it's Reagan era it was that they wrote it it was what I think it was Reagan era that he wrote running yes yeah yeah um and since it was so different from horror and he was still new they recommended he write it under a pin name so it's by Richard Buchanan but he wrote it in the 80s to take place in 2025 so then it's also really trippy that it was a movie in the 80s and then they chose to do it again in 2025 and I think

And truly it's that wild part where when you're watching it, it's like reading The Hunger Games and everything else where you're just like, oh, like I had, what was I reading that made me, I don't even know if it was reading. I know what it was. I was watching Paradise. And I just truly had such a deep panic attack. I am sure. Yeah. Same thing with the lilac people. Like all the sudden when all the sudden, because there's, I don't know if you read it, but there's like moments.

No, I need to. I bought it. There's moments where radio transitions are happening, like radio transmissions to different queer people, like this queer radio station. And the day I got to the section of the book where the queer radio station goes silent, so it's like just blank pages, was the same day Jimmy Kimmel got indefinitely taken off the air. So I started having a panic attack reading the book, because here I've been reading all this stuff about like, Hitler. youth in the book. And so you have certain people are no longer with us. And so people are talking about like, we've got to bring back the, you know, the youth who can speak to the, and it's like, I'm reading all this. And I just truly was like, I had to close the book. And my friend whose book club

it was, I just text her and I was like, I'm having a little bit of panic attack. I can't keep reading. Same thing. I started watching Paradise right after the wildfires ended in L.A. around the same time, Homeboy was like you got a nuke I got a new and you're watching this show and you're just like yeah and you're just like oh no oh no no no no no and i truly that whole like dramatic episode for people that haven't seen i don't want to ruin it i had to stop the episode and i was like and my whole thing is if something's scary to me i'm like well i'll watch it in the daytime started watching the daytime i said this is not helping no it's not helping i'm still in hell oh no i'm gonna turn this up But it's like, it's this weird, it's almost, a buddy of mine, he's gay black man, and he said the best thing once when we were talking.

And he was like, some days I wish I had the ignorance of people who walked into the voting booth on November 3rd and were shocked not to see Joe Biden on it. He was like, I envy those people. I wish I was those people. Like he was like, I don't even want to be devoid. He was like, I at times envy people who can truly walk through life and be like, what snack benefits were cut off since when and it's like there is almost like a yeah it's like um the way i've compared what feels like the last few years is like the matrix it's like i envy people that don't live in who are comfortable same plugged in yes more so i even i envy more so the people

they don't even know they're plugged in they don't even know yeah yeah because i'm like the people who know they are i'm like listen we've been in hand-to-hand combat for quite some time that's a good point yeah but i'm like i almost at times envy the people who don't even know they're plugged in and i'm like wow how nice must that be to just like and i think sometimes when you say that people are like oh my god well then just like unplug stop watching the news and it's like even if i stop watching the news i i still exist in a body that the news is going to find me that's that and who's making me if probable is quote she's like you exist in the context yes of all that came before like truly i'm just like i i just am always yeah i'm so i'm genuinely in awe of people who like on threads

right now are like fighting people being like i can't understand how you guys are trying to bring race into wicked her skin's green and i'm like okay okay okay but you said okay okay so you think that's just a a throwaway line that that madame morrible says her hidey odious skin is a reflection of her evil like you think just stephen schwartz just like through that because he was like this is cute yeah let's just talk about people skin color and even the other thing is like even if it didn't have to be an interpretation about black people in the sense that Cynthia's playing her now i'm like prior to that it was like by jewish women's skin color is the point so like that that's kind of the point prior to that there was an intentional choice to cast

a Jewish woman to play this. I'm like nothing. Like I guess my thing is I'm so I'm always so both fascinated and envious by people who live their life being like it's not that deep. I know. Like when I watch like I don't know if you ever saw that

trend where it was like you know books that aren't political because there was like a whole movement where people are like yeah like the joke of like don't have to be political and I remember like somebody had fourth wing on their list and the fourth wing lady was like Mm-mm.

Oh, they were doing it seriously. Yeah, this is a person doing it dead serious. And they were like, fourth wing. And the fourth wing lady was like, was literally in her comments being like, mm-mm, you're wrong. I actually wrote this book about the military industrial complex. Yes. But please, by all means, enjoy my book.

And it was like, and you could tell the lady was like, wait, what? And it's like, and I think that's like the funny thing to me is like to want to exist in a space where everything means nothing sure sounds blissful but then when I really think about it I'm like I would be miserable if everything was made in this like idiocracy style like because that's really what we're moving towards is people want to say yeah they people want to go back to jackass on TV and Viva Bam and you know all that stuff and like TV shows were like the great to wear exactly and it's like that's the craziest part is that you're even if you watch a what not to wear you're like well this is this was like a huge thing of like us coming to terms with like

wait why do we call clothes flattering like that really was the start of people being like wait why do my clothes need to be flattering why does that lady who likes wearing christmas tree earrings all year round have to change her entire style to be socially acceptable yet y'all can't mention people nominating you for it. Can you talk about the people in your life who secretly filmed you? Yeah. Like now in hindsight, even all this TV that was created to be quote unquote frivolous, now in hindsight we're all like, wow, that was really messed up.

Wow. How about we really fucked up. Whoa, that's crazy that we used to like, you know, watch Johnny Knox and his friends hurt themselves. Right. And then like now in hindsight, you've got like poor, uh, Steveo being like, oh, yeah, know I was a horrible addict. That's why I was able to get through some of it.

And you're just like, oh, so everything is that deep. Like, nothing is made devoid of, like, you said, coploid, like, of context. It's like, it exists. And I don't know. I've just been thinking about that a lot, especially with, like, it is that time of year where you sit around the table and it's like, oh, my God, don't you love that show?

You know, don't you love this? And you're like, yeah. Like, even today, it's like, I'm a dancing with the star is nut. And I'm watching people I'm watching people who are new fans of the show Be like, when was the last time a black woman Won the show? And you're like Oh. Is it? Never.

It's won. Amber Riley. Okay. And it's like this weird thing where it's like, again, it's a pop culture thing And you're watching people go. Wait, so Zendaya's been on this show. Normani's been on this show. Those are really talented people you're naming. Yeah. Did they win? Not even close. People didn't feel connected to them.

Like what, it's, it's just such a, I don't know, I'm just very much in this fascination as a pop culture lover of how, how much in battle anti-intellectualism is with pop culture right now because they don't exist. The idea of like, I love this, I do, I love this head-to-head that's happening right now with anti-intellectualism and pop culture. Because like, I think the idea of like, content. with a message was reserved at one point for the classics. Then it became like classics and maybe like literary fiction. Then it turned into like lit-fick classics, maybe a little sprinkle in there of like genre-fix, you know, other, you know, kind of genre, yeah, genre fiction. Then it was kind of like, oh, it's made it to reality TV.

Oh, it's made it to regular. You know, it's like people can make sense. could almost make sense of when it would like show up an ER as a very special episode but then you fast forward to like this is us because I'm obsessed with their rewatch podcast and here you're watching Sterling explain that like and Mandy Moore too and you know and all these folks they're like oh no it was there the whole time there were deeper messages from the moment we decided Randall was part of the big three and you're just like oh content stopped being devoid of messages, I would argue from like Obama era on.

Like that was the last time I feel like stuff just got. No, I would say Bush, because I would say that was the first time it hit me when I discovered like Green Day that I was like, oh, there's things in the thing. Like that was the first, like the first time I watched, I really watched South Park and like started putting together like, oh. Oh, so this crack baby basketball episode is not making fun of children of addicts. It's commentary. Yeah, it was like it's punching up at the NCAA. And it was like, that was when I was like, oh, are there things and all the things I like?

And then that's when you kind of like start going back. There are. Oh. Oh. Oh, wait. There's stuff in this. It's like, you know, even rewatching Brandy Cinderella not too long ago. I was like, oh, there's always been stuff in the stuff.

Like, there's always been something there. And there's always been people making the art trying to prove a point. And I was like, but yeah, but I'm like, but when people are like, how can we get accept Brandy and Cinderella and, you know, Pablo Montaubon as the prince with Whoopi Goldberg and, you know, what's his face, Randy Gerber is or whatever as the parents. I'm like, and then it's like, and now we can't deal with like the Little Mermaid being like Hallie Bailey. And I'm like, because I think we started taking.

pride and like anti-intellectualism like we got rid of critics who critically assess things you know we started poo-pooing on stuff that girls like we're like just give me a regular Marvel movie bro and it's like I don't know how to break this to you Stan Lee never made this him and Jack Kirby never made this stuff just to like I'm like the first appearance of Captain America is him right a Nazi on the cover like really like Like, there's always, there've been artists trying to make the thing. And I think the reason stuff maybe feels like everything has a message or everything's quote unquote woke or heavy handed is because I think artists are realizing the audience is is getting dumber. And it's like, you know, it's like, it's like we're in a world now where you have Netflix move, Christmas movies where they, the exposition is explaining what just happened in case you were looking down at your phone.

Like every character is basically catching you up on what you missed 15 minutes ago. Have you read about two screen viewing? Yeah, that's where I was going to, I was going to bring this up eventually. So we're even leading in that, that shit. Okay. So for anyone who doesn't know, my short understanding of it is that in a lot of like production companies, when uh people are submitting scripts or story ideas they're getting notes that are like this really wouldn't work as well for second to or for two screen second screen viewing yeah and so exactly

what you are saying like one of the my biggest pet peeves is terrible exposition i understand we have to do some creative things to help in a movie yeah but i hate terrible exposition but It's starting to be everywhere. And then there's this, there's this whole thing where, like, the market or some of the people who are buying shows right now are like, you need to have it be so obvious. Like, they can be scrolling and like almost just say what the action is. I'm like, no. Yeah. But, and it's like, and I think that's the funny.

It's like, I feel like both those things are budding together, right? Like, you and I both had the same crash out when sinners happen and people are like, oh, it's a sexy, sexy vampire movie. I was like, okay, time out, flag on the play. If your sole takeaway from this movie was Haley spit Michael B. Jordan's mouth. I had like forgotten about that and saw it in a TikTok and I'm like, yeah, there were literally that many other good things that happened. Yeah, like, truly, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we got to go backwards.

Because if your whole takeaway is like, Haley Steinfeld's Michael B. Jordan, like, ooh, she's spitting his mouth or like, I'm like, or preacher boy and what's her and Perlene, I'm like, yeah. we got to talk for adventures and making the point you are missing yeah i'm like you're either missing the point or you're trying to miss the point or you want to miss the point and i'm like in either choice yeah concerning to me because we can't talk about this movie if all you want to talk about is like sexy sexy vampire time and the same thing when i had a friend of mine which you know this friend she was like i well it was just like true blood like it's so sexy and i said true blood was about

gay people it's important to me you understand that right like you understand they said they came out of the coffin they say things like god hates fangs they call them fangers like there's constant allusion to like the f word like they're like aids and brought into it because of like the blood and like there are so many fascinating yeah it truly but it was like this funny thing where as i'm talking to this person again like our thing of like when did everything become so woke it's like, no, the problem is we got dumber, so the artist had to get more heavy-handed. Like, they had to start being very clear of like, hey, it's important to me that you know and Kanto is about generational trauma.

That's why the whole thing happens in this house. They don't leave the house. All the drama happens in the house. The house talks to them, the grandmother and the kids. and the great you know it's like and then you're standing there and people are like I think I think Luis is gay and you're like okay she's okay okay okay and okay okay and you're like because she's big and muslily okay okay okay I need you to come back with me I need you to come I need you I need you to rewind that was not it

no no no no no no no no no no no because now we're trying to talk about also women's and why does it mean she's gay yeah and it's like okay at some point Disney will absolutely make the gate but we are talking and generational and black sheep that is passed down in the family because of literally grandma's trauma as an immigrant which is like trauma that we feel bad for her for too it's just but it's but it's It's like you're sitting with somebody and they're like, we don't talk about Bruno and you're like, okay, okay. All right. Well, now I'm not having fun anymore because you want to be stupid today.

Now you want to be dumb and miss the point and I don't like it here. I don't like it at all. You know, or you're sitting or it's like I think about, I think about like, again, like when Hallie Bailey was cast and somebody was like, and again, it's like the movie is the movie. Okay. Anybody can play. And I remember somebody, a very lovely person slid in my DMs. And they were like, well, how would you feel if Tiana was white? And I said, okay. Again, I need you to understand things are not just things. Princess Tiana is based on a real person named Leah Chase. And it's like, but it's this thing where it's like, where she's being like, yeah. And it's like, well, if it's just a Disney princess. And you're like, it's not just a Disney princess anymore. It means something bigger. And the reason it means something bigger is y'all, Most, what is it, 65% of the country has, like, below a six-grade reading left. It's like, so if you're confused. I want to, like, get into the details.

I do, too. But it's like, but my thing is like, so if you're wondering why things feel so woke, it's because we are no longer in Frankenstein land, where Mary Shelley can write a book about a doctor pulling people and the whole idea of necromancy and your create. And then the readers are like sitting together in old English being like, well, old sport, I think. this gentleman has written a book about how if we have too much money we shall ruin the world perhaps i rockefellow shall donate it to a library but like yeah that world is over if if frankenstein came out now people would be like i love monsters he's so sexy yeah which is what we're dealing with is people are like jacob o'rodo is kind of hot okay daddy pedro pass back or no it's um or Oscar Isaac.

Yeah. The one, Oscar Isaac, people are like, okay, Daddy Victor. And I'm like, cut the point.

It is important to me. It is important to me that you understand. It's the same with Wuthering Heights. How people were like, don't, oh my God, listen, and I hate a Bronte sisters.

I don't you hate Blonte sisters. And I'm about to read, I hate them. I love it. I have beef with them. I love it. I love it. I love it.

And the way I'm like, and then when it got made, are like oh my god it's such it's like no it's just like such a return to like victorian bodice ripping and i'm like okay it's important to me that you understand weathering heights intentionally had a morish man playing he pinchcliff and like like it is important to me but you all understand back in their day the the literacy the media literacy rate was clearly way higher than it is here because all what's her face flannel is taking away is have them spin in each other's mouth i'm like i swear to god

if you get that's what she's doing in the victorian era and that's what it is and i'm like i don't need it set to charlie x yeah same thing where you're like i didn't mind friends of mine who disliked barby who are these very intelligent brilliant literary people who had like critique they were like i feel very mainstream feminism i don't like it all this stuff it was the people i would talk to that would just be like she's so pretty I just loved it when she was like changing and I'm like okay so you I know it lets you know

you are pissing me off yeah the same thing with Oppenheimer when people were like I'm a film bro bro I just like I gotta see it in 40 millimeter IMAX and I'm like again it is important to me that you know Chris Nolan said he wanted this to be a cautionary tale

to Silicon Valley and people are like why it's about the atomic bum and I'm like okay again so you miss that whole monologue Albert Einstein gave to Oppenheimer about don't let your intellect get co-opted don't think that you can come up with an idea so brilliant they will accept you they will take your idea and

toss you back out and then use it to destroy people's very it's also the proximity of power story as what I'm realizing as you said it because it's like women who think they'll be safe if they suck the patriarchy stick. I mean, look at mademortful. You're sitting there being like,

or are you watching Glinda and people are like, I love her dresses and she's me. It's an inspirational. And I'm like, and I'm like, it's not. That was another point. I'm like, if you got, like, I literally saw somebody on TikTok before we recorded that said like, hey, if you guys want

like a white lady that wears pink that you can identify with and make your personality. It's Lottie from Princess and the Frog. Yes. Like it was like if you want like if you want one that without any provocation, without any analysis of that choice, if you want the white blonde lady and the pink that you can pretend you are and love the glitter and the aesthetic. Yes. It's her.

It's Lottie. And literally I saw somebody respond in the comments. They were like, but she's only in the movie for like three seconds. And then somebody else was like, well, that's all you get. I hate to break it to you. If you just wanted frivolous fun on the right side of history, it's that lady. That's it. But it is that weird thing where you're like, I now am under the assumption that like the reason things feel so heavy-handed is because of the lack of media literacy.

Because, let's be real. Like, John Chu could have picked anybody. And yes, he picked probably one of the greatest vocalists. of this generation. But at the same time, Adele was right there. She was free. They ain't doing anything.

Like, there's a lot of people that could have done it. Like, that felt so intentional. And so then to watch people want to remove intentionality, I then have to go, oh, right. Most of the country

has below a sixth grade reading level. So you have to give alpha but microbreeds. You can't even put Cynthia in the makeup and give her the straight black because they'll try it's like okay and it's like and that's why

stuff feels woke because it has to be so heavy handed to say hey you person out there you see what this is about and then that's where I can fully crash out when I'm watching people miss the whole point

it keeps reminding me because we're talking about people who use woke as a they're like essentially calling you a snow flake is like the is the attitude in that moment and when when uh whatever our our administration that's what i'll say was saying that music those people were saying that museums were too woke that was the first time that like i had seen it at the like government level of them using that word and like obviously i don't have to tell you but i'm just saying in general for people that was a word that

black people had to use to each other in sundown towns is what i'm told is the origin at least and it was like girl don't even say whoa it was like stay safe so like first first first you can imagine the shock i had the first the first time i logged on threads and saw a white lady saying to each other you deserve rest rest is resistance i said not for you who gave you Who told you all to use that? Not for you. You get out there. You don't get to rest.

I'm going to sleep. I'm going to go lay down. But it is like, it is this weird. But again, it's like what you're saying, it's like, oh, well, I can just, I'm just going to take this word woke. And it's like, it's not just that. It's not that. It's not as simple as a four-letter word. You know, and it is truly, it is a, it is a mind-boggling thing.

because I do back to the Thanksgiving of it all. It's like, I think about people who are going to sit around the table this year. And like I said, it's going to be like, oh, my God, what did you think of dancing on the stars? That was crazy, right? And it's like, and even that is a loaded conversation when somebody's aunt is going to go, I just didn't care for Jordan Child's freestyle. I don't know. It just didn't seem ballroom to me.

And you're like, that was a loaded statement. That is a loaded statement that I am, that if you don't clock it, you are sitting there being like oh yeah no it was pretty good rather than being like hey what do you mean by that or like did it have oh did she have to do ballroom yeah and you're like no okay then why was it a bad thing okay so so you didn't i didn't know who that was performing with her that's fine that person has normani has many grammy nominations is very famous it's okay for you to just go oh i've never heard of her I would love to hear one of her songs. But like, but it is this,

and it's almost this fascinating thing, too, I find of like, when you have somebody who wants to make everything, it's not that deep, meet somebody who's like, no, no, no, everything's that deep. There is almost this, it's almost this pride they have in telling you, like, well, sorry, I guess I just, I guess I missed that. Maybe we saw two different things and you're like,

well, now I'm going to fight you in the parking lot because that's annoying. Yes, it's the white, it's so the white lotus mean when she's like yeah it's like really it's like it is that they involved in politics yeah truly

or it's like watching you know we both know I jokingly say I've had my boyfriend who we now use the analogy of religion we compared to video games so I like to say I play video games very different than it's from most people who play video games aka

Christianity and even even just watching folks be like on threads being like I'm a Christian woman y'all is it okay for me to see wicked and you're like okay I don't know what you want me to do with this I don't know what I'm supposed to do with your religious psychosis today I have a brother-in-law that you see the devil and everything who's who believes that Taylor Swift was performing demon rituals on the whole tour see and then this is what makes him mad and then I have to be forced to be a Taylor Swift fan because I just I know. I know. I'm like, but then it's like, but then it is that simultaneous thing, right? Speaking of Taylor Swift, where again, pop culture bumps up against intellectualism where people are like, hey, so what do you mean by she's onyx and your opalite? Can you just run that back for me real quick, Taylor?

And it's like, gosh, she doesn't, she's just having a good time. And I'm like, no, no, I got it because listen, B-Day is a good time. We dancing, living it up, having fun. also what did you mean Taylor can you explain it to me why she's dark as night and you're the brightness of opal light can you just just run me back through what do you mean just just just tell me and then I can yes I can move on with my day but it's like it truly is that thing where you encounter somebody who's like it's a you guys just don't like having fun I love fun I'm crazy about fun.

Fun is my jam. But nothing is done. No good artist does anything out without intention. So let's have also some fun rigor right now. Yes. And she's aware she is a very smart woman.

And she is very aware of how her friends, how her fans act. and my take when someone asked me about it I was like like especially the line this the most specific line I'm definitely not arguing your point she's talked about dark guys and bright skies through her whole so some people yeah and I can jump I can understand that part but then that second verse when it's like you were in it for real and she was in her phone I was like write about all the relationships you want to write about but like you were in that relationship leave leave it the fuck alone like you're you were in that relationship. And then I was like, and with great power comes responsibility. And you have the responsibility to understand the climate and your fans. And that's my feeling is like, we are gone are the days. Right.

Where you can just make a thing. Right. And walk away. Yeah. And she's not an underdog anymore either. Even the other day. It's different. Exactly.

It's, um, like I know everybody thinks she's cringy, but I always thought the turn Ellen DeGeneres made. with that comedy special, where she acknowledged, like, I was like, unrelatable is the tight of love it, I think. You know, it was incredibly, and I think it was so funny to lean into, like, I don't know what y'all's problems are anymore. Listen, that's half my problem with Kim Kardashian. Stop trying to act like you and I get each other.

Y'all know how I feel, you know specifically how I feel about Jennifer Lopez. Stop trying to make me think you are a chill. Yeah. Just be Barbara Streisand. It's why I love Barbara Streisand. That lady will be like, listen, like most of you, when I'm sad, I go to the mall in my basement. And I'm like, yes, Barbara, I also go to the mall. That's authentic.

It's a life. I also have a clone dog, Barbara. Totally cool. Super chill. Yeah, Barbara, I'm just like you. You like us, regular people. You are women of the people. But it's like, I think at times I would prefer somebody who's like.

like, hey, I choose to be woefully ignorant. I choose to go into everything and enjoy things at a base level. I don't like enjoying, I don't like digging deeper into anything. I'm like, great. Then we can enjoy each other. Like, because this is funny to me. Like I have, um, my friend Tracy, speaking of anti-intellectualism, one year for her book club for the stacks. We did. It ends with us. And truly, everyone in the group was like, why are we doing this awful Colleen Hoover book? And she was Like, and what was funny is people went into book club immediately being like, joking and all. And she was like, no, I treat every book that comes to book club with the same academic rigor that we gave to Lolita, that we give to Frankenstein, that we give to warmth of other sons, that we give to Clint Smith. Like, we are going to treat this book.

Like, what are the literary themes? How did you feel about the character development? Rather than sitting down and be like, this was silly. She was like, no, no, we're going to sit. What did you think about how Lily? you know, grew as a character. Do we feel that the relationship was authentic? Do we feel that, you know,

she's a reliable narrator? Like, I am always in awe of her because she's like, she reminds me so much of my mom, because I've talked about this on Taylor Stricker before, where I'm like, my mom has a master's in art history. My mom will walk into a museum and absolutely giggle with you

about how silly, you know, how big of a waste of time the Mona Lisa was, of waiting in line to see this thing. Then she also though take you out in the hallway and talk to you about how ahead of its time the color choices were the composition and i think she is the reason i can watch real housewives of miami love the hot mess and then also turn to my friends and be like it's really great commentary when you think about it though of the conversation around like white passing latinos and how quickly

cubans like want to assimilate to what they believe the american ideal is which is a very conservative have thought. And I've got people looking at me going like, it's just the housewives of Miami. I'm like, it is just the housewives of Miami. And it's also a real life look at wealthy Cubans in Miami and seeing how do we get to Latinos for Trump. Yep. Here's your example. You know, or the same thing with now you see me. It's like, I love these silly, I love these silly real life wizard movies. Also, let's talk about, you know, cryptocurrency. bro, stealing from these people, you know, these poor pensions and unions of teachers putting their money and cryptocurrency by investors and losing everything.

It's just like, it's just so, right? The opener where they're like, you saw a lot of money. I was like, Andrew Santino, what are you doing here? Yeah, exactly. Meanwhile, I'm just like, well, this seems weird. We're using so many screens. Oh, no. There's too much.

CDI and my daddy. Oh. Okay. So I wasn't supposed to be focused on the screen. screens. I was supposed to be on this other part. Got it, got it. You know, but it's like, that is the thing where it's like, I truly just think artists have had to get more heavy handed. Those of us that don't have the beauty of no longer seeing the face and the vase in the picture can't keep it to ourselves anymore. And we are just, this sounds great. I feel insane

saying this. I'm like, and then we're just surrounded by the kids who should not be in this class with us. Like somebody said, they said they need to bring back. Like, we are all stuck in a reading group with people who should not have been in this reading group yes we are we are stuck in the advanced fourth grade readings if everybody has a six grade reading level we are some of us are in the advanced sixth grader group and there are people here who are still trying to understand basic yes literary structure and it's like you got it you got to move it's like okay great then we're going to have to take we're going to have to now give them an early reader version of frankenstein oh now

we're going to have to give them and like that's what media has become is a picture book version of Frankenstein to try to get yeah home to you right that's a good visual of it all the different abridged versions of books yeah it is it's like because i think about that a lot when i think about yeah like certain books i love and i find myself being like oh cool they have a graphic novel version of it and i'm like who is this for yeah and then i'm like oh right it's for my younger cousin who literally will be like haven't read a book in years bro and I'm like no Alex you think it is that actually scares me can you please read something anything I know that's how I yeah that was when we left the running man I just kept saying though I was like because

the action scenes are fantastic there are big parts of the movie that are very fun oh they're the best part yeah that sounds even better I bet at least three times it was yeah it is really great And I was like, but that might be the only place that someone might hear that message just like getting drilled into their heads. I mean, well, you know from when I first started on Taylor, it was like, I truly was like, if I have to explain politics as the real housewives reunions, I will do it. Because if that is the only thing in your mind that you can visualize is Andy Cohen's here. Teresa Judeyce loses her mind and shoves him, great. Then let me explain to you the state of the union using the housewives of New Jersey seat layout and why it matters. Because I think, and I'm really interested to see where, like, art and literature and all this stuff goes, the worst this divide seems to be getting that it's like, it's like, I really do think there, we're going to have, like, I'm just curious to see like certain blockbusters.

I'm like, geez, what is this going to? look like now because like I still want like sinners little storytelling I don't want second screen storytelling yeah and it's but at the same time too when I look at a center and I'm like wow there is half the audience that knows that this is like a deep beautiful commentary on the Jim Crow South and then there's another half who just thinks it's a sensitive and then there's some people when you tell them they're like what's Jim Crow and you're like oh Or there are some people in my life There's some people in my life

Who will soon become family one day Whose answer to do you want to see sinners was There's too many black people in it Oh they just said it Yeah Yeah They didn't say it to me Oh my to their son

Which you already know then That conversation Oh boy And I was like Oh no I have to sit with this person And potentially the rest of my life And I was like, oh, God, help me. But it is that one thing.

That meme, I guess, that I saw that it was like, if it was just the 60s, like, of course, racism hasn't died off. And I'm like, oh, yeah, like, a lot of them are still alive and have kids. Yeah. Truly, truly, truly. I try to tell me all the time. I'm like, my dad is right upstairs as we record. There is a literal living monument. And then, of course, there's still.

the white version that is bad and trying to tell people like yeah I'm like my dad by bad I mean racism the lady in the back of the yeah but I'm meaning like I'm like my dad is here the people in the background of the people he went to school with yeah also still here so here too for that was the climate for him do you get where we're going yeah that I'm like because it's the same thing when Ryan Cooler talks about he's like oh yeah I was sit with my uncle grew up in Jim Crow South and it's like so guys this story was not born out of nowhere like this is a true life story we just added a sprinkle of fantasy to it so it could be a movie but it's but it is that thing where it's like oh I just want to see wicked and I just want to have a good time you can absolutely go see wicked yeah and just have a good time but there's also a song in the middle of the show where animals are going to the underground railroad and Cynthia Revo is singing about how do you love a country

that does not love you back when you know you don't want to leave and surrender it to bad people and I'm like so by all means go again I saw it in 40X enjoy the bubble laugh and couldn't be happier

Glenda sang there are bridges you cross that you didn't know you crossed until you crossed them and also the animals are in the underground railroad so like and the animals are very sentient beings that they that people have just deemed are below them even though they are the same kind of sentient yeah yeah or it's like I'm you know but I think the beauty of wanting to see the deeper meaning and thing is you get to fully enjoy and love the art right it's like going to see that movie and you're like well

why is the wizard playing with a globe that's inflatable and then you find a post that's like oh hey Charlie Chaplin made a movie yeah it's like Charlie Chaplin made a movie about Hitler and it was a commentary on fascism and how it was wrong and all this stuff and in it he does

a dance with an inflatable globe to show that Hitler has so little regard for the world and thinks it's a play thing and then it bursts and he's just like it's just like it is this thing where yeah and it but it's that thing where I'm like by all means go enjoy it and if your sole takeaway is like you want to buy more pink or you want to wear pink and green together I love that for you seems like I was team from the beginning guys yeah right that's the same like it's always funny too and you're like my last name's green and people are like okay and you're like okay this was the thing right before the movie was a thing okay you know but it's like and I'm like and by all means enjoy the

frivolity of the thing. Like I said, sit around your table, your Thanksgiving table and talk about how much you love Zootopia and how silly it was and how funny and how cute the music and wicked is. Go for it. But let's not pretend that artists don't make art to tell you something without explicitly telling you something. I need to pull up this quote because you've mentioned that a couple times yes so that book that i read called scream with me um don't have the art i don't have the author's right now but i had like pulled quotes um but what i thought was cool um okay so this is like all in her forward uh art is where we store analyze and hone our secret social fears and hopes our desires and demons long before we're ready to talk about them clearly or accurately or accurately or

sorry, or articulately on the news. Studying and teaching art for that reason is always political and always has the capacity to do real activist work. Moreover, the power of art to represent and immerse us in complex social problem exceeds and sometimes confounds what an author's or director's own vision may have been because art takes on its fullest life once it interfaces with an audience. So sometimes it takes years and even decades for our culture to consciously recognize that a particular work of art with handling some thorny complex or not fully articulable topic.

I was like, I'm going to love this book. Yes, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, I give you Mary Shelley. Because think about it, we're all like, we're all like, ooh, monster, oh, Frankenstein. And now in hindsight, you have centuries later, people are kind of like, oh, I don't think that lady was just talking about a monster. I mean, I will say for myself, like, you know, not knowing how much time we have, but like I always whenever people ask me why do you want to work in film I always say it's for two reasons my grandfather loved movies loved movies black man in the deep south again literally lived in like the town from centers in a place called providence kentucky that was his escape to realize that there was a world bigger than this tiny segregated town where here he was this biracial man who did not belong he felt like he didn't belong to any world then the other side of why I want to be in film

is I'm like the first blockbuster was birth of a nation, which was it was the first blockbuster ever shown in the White House. And it is ultimately a propaganda film about the dangers of free black men. And I remember once, this was like back when I was working at Paramount, I ended up getting an informational with the CMO of Paramount at the time. And I was sitting in Frederick's office with, I know, I don't even know how I pulled this off. I'm sitting in Frederick's office. it's gorgeous office like it is every bit of what you imagine like an old school holiday office looks like wood panel walls all this stuff and he had like a big poster on the back of like a film he loved like probably casa blanc or something and he was like

and he was asked me like what's your dream and i was like i know where i wanted to be since i was four years old i want to be the CEO of a major motion picture studio and he was like that's impressive and he goes all right kid well when you get this job what are you going to put behind the desk. And I go, I've always known there were two images I wanted in my office if I ever got to do this. And he was like, what is it? And I said, I want behind me a poster of birth of a nation. I want an authentic poster. I want a reminder to me of what this place is built on. I said, and then the other thing I want is a photo of Hattie McDaniels with Dorothy Dandridge, a reminder to me of people who stood here long before me, paid the road.

but never truly were able to either celebrate their success because they had to subject or they had to subjugate themselves in some way play a character that was beneath them in order to get acceptance or in the case of Dorothy Dandridge never got the dudes they deserved because they were ignored and he was kind of like that's an impressive that's an impressive thing you want in here and I was like I don't enter into these faces lightly and I remember a B-School classmate of mine tease me he said do you ever just enjoy stuff sometimes i enjoy

enjoying it he was like but he's never thinking about it and that was the thing thinking about it is he was like do you ever just enjoy things and i was like i do because we were talking about the movie set it off and he was like and i said like oh the movie is so ahead of its time it's like it's got a queer black woman it's about four black women i said it starts with police violence against a black man like it's false arrest and and you know just you know, assuming identity, all the stuff, and he was just like, oh, God, do you ever just like things? And I said, I love that movie. It's got my favorite death in an action movie of all times. Like, I was just targeting to somebody the other day. I said, if I went on

IRL squid games, because, you know, they kill them on there. I said, I want them to kill me like Queen Lativa and set it off. I don't want just one squid on me. I want six. I'm riddled with bullet holes. I was acting it out for this person. I was like, I'm the stand there and I'm going to be like I said I'm going to die eyes eyes open wide open because I was telling them if we go on the show together I said my eyes are going to be open I'm real shallow I'm dead on the ground I want you to come over give me a beautiful speech and I want you to close my eyelids and they go we would get kicked off the show by the producers I go shut up shut up I've dreamt of this moment my whole life just do it even if they cut it

don't care don't care I said I just want to go long enough for the audience to care about me so when I die like that guy Trinity did this year that I want to I wanted to be horrific I wanted to scar some people but it's like that's my thing is like to my buddy Amir when he was like do you ever just enjoy things I'm like I do I enjoy silly things I enjoy stuff I also watch squid games fully aware that there is a white dude who has won six million dollars before in a poker tournament against an Afro Latino woman who is living in the projects with her family in the Bronx and I can't help but root for her and notice this larger theme happening of like this is squid game this man is not one percent nor is she but these two are fighting each other and even and they're treating this like the real show because there is a level of class warfare like today I just came across a meme that showed a picture of district one and it was the most middle class looking images and somebody said and this is what we're missing we think District 1 is the 1%

In reality, it's middle class Americans. Exactly. The capital is the 1%. And I was like, oh. It's, yeah. It is 1% against all of us. And anyone who doesn't know that that is what is happening.

But it's like that's what Running Man is about. That's what Hunger Games is about. That's like, it's like, again, it's a thing of like, Bless me. Really hardcore about that. Parable of a soar. It's truly but it's like it really is that thing where it's like if you are looking for mindless entertainment if you are looking for like you said the thanksgiving table where nothing is discussed

like by all means enjoy it but please don't piss on every in everybody else's corn flakes who actually wants to have real conversation because I'm like if that exhausts you and you're on your threads then close out your threads account just go to truth social I promise you I promise you they're enjoying wicked on yeah I'm like I promise you they're enjoying wicked on the most base level I promise you over on truth

social they're just talking about Glenn Cowell's oh my gosh that's what I saw I saw Kamala had a clip where she was telling people you cannot assume that people are seeing what seems like bombshell news to you like you cannot assume that they even know it I

speaking of being home for people like me when I come home I get visited by dignity like I'm not even kidding I'm saying this with a show you can cut this if you want one of the guests my mom was like you remember so-and-so who came over and I was like oh hey nice to meet you man and he was like oh your father was so kind to my grandfather and I was like wow you got dope South African accent and then when he left my mom was like you know that was Mandela's grandson right and I was like wow cool yeah I was just like but I realize it's become so quotidian and my mom was like I realize it's become so quotidian and my life that like in at no point am i like asking quite like this man's known me since i was a child and i don't remember who this is like he's like do you remember me i'm like no you sound like you should marry audiobooks say vibranium yeah like i'm like i'm like say vibranium i don't want to hear it say heart shape herb and they're like and they're like she does that as i remember i'm like okay

you're boring boo but like it was this moment to your thing of like don't assume the common quote I'm sitting with these very intelligent, brilliant people who are coming to the house and having to tell them as they're like, listen, there are people out here who are furious about this administration. Listen, they're coming over. And I'm like, hi, so I'm going to, I'm going to show you TikTok. Have you guys heard of Tradwives? Like, I feel like I'm unfortunately introducing these very intellectual people to the anti-intellectual side of the internet. I'm like, hey, can I introduce you to Tradwives? have you guys ever heard of like this person and they're like what's an

Alex Earl and I'm like so glad you asked let me show you like I still even totally understand what an Alex Earl is I don't understand and on top of it she's a DG from the University of Miami when I tell you those girls were my mortal enemies in college I'm like well Alex you're already starting with some points against you I wouldn't have liked you even if we had been in school at the same time I'd have been like well, don't need that. It's time to fight the DGs again. Yeah, my capital sisters were always like, nobody said we are physically at war. Well, I did. I'm sorry. I've decided we are. I've decided we're at war. So now I've got to fight them. But like, it is just truly, it still continues to crack me up.

And just like, it's an interesting thing. It's like watching really intelligent people realize that there are people in this world who are not understanding there is a deeper meaning, which is why I'm in awe of Kamala understanding of like, hey, hey, so I underestimated something? We are in idiocracy. I thought we were still in the West Wing. I would have done this very differently had I know we were already at President Camacho. I know. Well, and it's like, I think obviously when white people are like, what is happening to America?

It's like, oh, guys. However, in this case, I feel like I'm even just hearing. hearing from her, I feel like even non-white people are also like, wait, it did accelerate though, right? Like really quickly? Like, and that's what it feels like. Yeah. Like, I do. I find myself, I feel like what we have become in terms of media literacy and analysis and art, it does feel like, I do some days feel like Ron Burgundy where I'm like, wow, that escalated quickly. Yeah. I don't understand. I mean, I do understand, unfortunately, I guess, but. you're like i don't understand but i do like i'm yeah like i'm lucky i'm privileged enough that

i will get to sit at a table with a lot of people this thanksgiving who will let me fully lean into all of it and then god bless my baby cousin who will come and and will not understand any of it and i get to introduce him to a lot of deeper meanings and is this so i can either cut it out or not um he just doesn't does he just not want to know it what's going on no he really is dancing through life like he is he is like life is like he really is like t-he and then i'm also like well can i introduce you to fiero who's obviously dealing with his own trauma but dealing with it in a kind of existential joy kind of way where he's like who cares i'm a screw up let's just party it up like i'm trying to like i'm like

hey so can i introduce you to this character you might notice yourself in and be able to analyze perhaps some of your behavior and destructive choices that I would love to move away from because I love you. There's this character in a book I just read called To the Moon and Back by Ileana

Ramage or Rampage. I can't remember. But I'm talking about it enough that you most of you will be able to find it. But one of the characters is some amount of

indigenous and there's like a whole there's a whole conversation because she's not a hundred percent and but it is okay we'll see now you're right i know making me add stuff to my teard but like it is what she identifies with and so she gets so active and like learns all the things and like wants everyone else to know to the point that like then there are multiple characters in this book but then like her other sister is like just like shut up like why don't i have to care about this all the time uh yeah and it so i i really enjoyed how that book handled it and there's another book called the line women of teheran that kind of i don't think this is exactly what you're talking about this isn't a more like uh meta or like metaphorical sense but anyway that that pull of like

some people like personality wise we are not going to be able to just accept something as it is without like wanting to know more information and like some people do feel the need to talk about it a lot and are sometimes going to get the reaction of like oh you're just that person who just has to say that everything was a lie yeah I'm like sometimes things are lies don't you want to know and also my thing is I didn't say it I'm like I didn't say it's the lie proved to be a lie I'm just standing here being like hey so while we're here though we can talk about this elephant in the room right everybody's like no and I'm like I know I just have just because because I have ADHD and I can't do the next task till we talk about my little spicy brain is like

I can't but I can't do the next task to let me close this loop real quick so I'm just going to say it and then I'll walk away because it's absolutely I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry it might is like extreme justice and sensitivity that just like it doesn't take much it doesn't take much when I found that out about neurodivergans I said oh no that explains so much. It's why I stress myself out about making all the right choices too. Truly, truly. God bless for people that feel like I would say then that good place, I do oftentimes feel like what's his face in the good place, the guy that the good place is based off of who eventually is like drinking his own pee and trying not to step on snails because he's

like, I don't want to run. I don't want to have that bad point. That is exactly because I have been spinning more. And it's just because, well, it's no secret. I grew up very religious and I'm pretty vocal about how I feel about it, but also I've been talking about it and interviewing more people. And any time you step out of something that is in your former programming, your brain starts being like, but are you completely doing the right thing? I completely did it. So like, my OCD is speaking through. And I was like, if I take Zoloft, I don't normally see you. What's happening up there? Like, I, the, audience doesn't know this but my favorite text from from kate are like hey quick quash

is it okay if i talk about this i'm like yep yep totally actually it's helpful if you did and it's like okay cool didn't want to overstep didn't want to overstep didn't want to like like am i you got it you're in it go for it you got it yeah you got the right thing does this title seem to suck nope nope nope it's good yes i imagine write this about indigrant you grab your mom real quick you've got the indigent I'd be like, look, look, I have an indigenous friend. I know to woke. We're all like, hey, I have many friends of color.

Meanwhile, I'm just standing there as a black woman. People are like, no, no, I believe you. It's fine. My poor boyfriend's like, hey, no girlfriend's black. And people are like, why are you saying that? He's like, because I just wanted you know the next six things I'm about to say about making everyone in this room. He's like, I'm just preparing you.

Yeah, he's like, I'm just preparing you guys. I'm not the same person you remember. anymore. I came out of the Matrix willingly. And I got some things to tell you, you've been plugged in the whole time. And his friends and family are like, don't unplug. But he's green flag energy. So they can have to. I mean, I don't want to say. Well, I was going to say, I think at the end of the day, as I'm thinking about the Thanksgiving of it all, is I am incredibly grateful for folks like you, folks like my friend Tracy, who push me to have more. intellectual rigor about what I consume and enjoy.

Like there is nothing that brings me more joy now than when I see a movie that is supposed to be silly like Running Man. And I know I can text you to be like, okay, so you saw the same thing I saw, right? And it's like, and I, it's such a gift to have, yeah, to be in community with friends and people who believe you to be smarter and more, and capable of more. intellectually of how you examine and partake in art and so yeah my weird coda on our our hanging out about nothing is that like I am so grateful yeah about nothing and everything is I'm so grateful to know people like you who who let who one let me do

have conversations like this but also I get to they get to they push me in a way that I'm so like so just grateful I am too with like book is community in general i'm very i'm just really grateful for that overall but same thing like you have to like find your people who like to talk about stuff this way and such a relief when you have that is then you have your moment yeah we're in the maybe that was yeah that was this whole episode is we're telling people go find your family go find your like if you're feeling weird this thanksgiving and all that stuff like if you have been enjoying all of this art and books and all the things and you feel like you're changing and evolving like you can go

find your family and so that maybe next thanksgiving you don't have to be silent at the table or have fights with people i like that message look at us we're just so