Bookwild - Jennifer Oko's Just Emilia: Stuck in an Elevator with Three Versions of Yourself

Episode Date: June 10, 2025

This week, I got to talk with Jennifer Oko about her uniquely crafted novel Just Emilia. We dive into how she created the three women in the elevator as their own characters, but also all the same woman, and the inspiration for the story.Just Emilia SynopsisThe past, present, and future collide in a DC Metro elevator as three women get caught up in a gripping time-traveling tale of memory, emotion, and unspoken truths about their shared history.When Emilia Fletcher finds herself trapped inside a Washington, DC Metro elevator, getting out is the least of her problems. Sharing the confined space with her are Em, a troubled teenager plagued by suicidal thoughts, and Millie, an elderly woman yearning to mend ties with her estranged daughter. As the hours drag on, hunger, exhaustion, and panic set in, revealing an almost incomprehensible truth: they are the same person. Locked in an uncompromising match of memories, the three women excavate and attempt to reckon with the shared shame and suffering stemming from an unresolved trauma that has cast a profound shadow over their lives. Brimming with biting humor, compassion, and quick-witted insight, JUST EMILIA is remarkable journey of self-discovery. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk with Jennifer Oco about her new novel, Just Amelia, which is mind-bendy and emotionally poignant and just very unique. The past, present, and future collide in a D.C. Metro elevator as three women get caught up in a gripping time-travel tale of memory, emotion, and unspoken truths about their shared history. When Amelia Fletcher finds herself trapped inside a Washington, D.C. Metro elevator, getting out is the least of her problems. sharing the confined space with her are M, a troubled teenager, plagued by suicidal thoughts, and Millie, an elderly woman yearning to mend ties with her strange daughter. As the hours drag on, hunger, exhaustion, and panic set in, revealing an almost incomprehensible truth. They are the same person. Locked in an uncompromising match of memories, three women excavate an attempt to reckon with the shared shame

in suffering stemming from an unresolved trauma that has cast a profound shadow, over their lives. Brimming with biting humor, compassion, and quick-witted insight, Just Amelia is a remarkable journey of self-discovery. I had so much fun talking to Jennifer about this book, learning about where she got the inspiration, how she approached writing three characters who are the same character, but are also not the same character, and how she decided to kind of mine grief and trauma through this really unique plot structure. That being said, let's hear from Jennifer. Well, I am super excited to be here with Jennifer Oco, and we're going to be talking today about your newest novel, Just Amelia.

But before we dive into that book, I did want to get to know you a little bit as a writer. So what was your first moment where you were like, I want to write something or I want to be an author? It's funny because, of course, I've been listening to some of your other podcast and I was like, I knew your comments me with that. And I don't have a really good answer except that I have, when I was about 10, my best friend and I tried to write a book together. And I remember it was called It's Nice to Be Together. And the sort of protagonist was the together monster and it was all about our friendship. And we never finished the book. But I think maybe like it touched something. But the real, the writing, the actual like fiction,

writing actually kicked into gear even before my memoir. I mean, you know, I published a memoir years ago, but before that, when I started my career, I was a television news producer and I was starting out as a journalist and facts can kind of get in the way of a good story. And I think I just needed a creative piece. So I started, it was actually, it all started with, I was joking around with a friend of mine and I was like, how would I write a novel? And I stood up on my bed. I remember this. I was like this tiny little apartment, you know, just out of grad school. And I was like, I'm going to start backwards with my award speech. You know, and that what's funny. And that what's funny is that what that novel, that novel is what ultimately became headcase, which is we can get into that later,

but came around many years later. But I started writing it and it felt like, it was like this release, this sort of fun, you know, when you're doing news, it's not always fun. This was really fun. And that was, and it also, I realized, like, I'm good at this. Like, yeah, it felt good and it feels good to be good at something. Right. So I guess that's how it all started. Yeah.

But, yeah. My first actual published book, though, started as a diary. And, yeah. So I went off to Russia as a journalist. and a lot of dramatic things happen and was furiously writing it down. And when I came home, I'll sort of traumatized, but what happened there, I went writing class in New York, the Gotham Writers' Workshop. And I realized that I had, there was like a book in this diary.

Yeah. I spent about a year turning it into that. And that's when my juices really got flowing. I was just like, I really like this thing. But I always like fiction. I mean, I was a Russian literature major in college. And after lying together came out, I was actually on my honeymoon. I got this leave of absence from work.

And my husband had an internship in Hanoi. And I don't know if you've ever been to Vietnam in the summer, but it's really hot. And so. I would imagine. It was like 109 degrees one day. I remember that. Back when that wasn't normal. I feel like that's becoming more normal.

And so he would go off to his internship. and I would sit in our air-conditioned kitchen and just start writing. And at the time I was working in morning television and I was thinking about leaving morning television. And I just started writing what became sort of my swan song of like leaving morning television. And that's really how the ball kind of rolled. Yeah, that's really cool.

So I typically ask people when they have been in like journalism or something like that as well, how that affects your writing. as well, but it almost sounds like it kind of like made you realize like writing fiction would be more fun just because it's a little more creative. It's just really different. I mean, so I'm still in my day job. I'm a documentary filmmaker and so facts still matter to me. But I think writing for television actually really helps me become a better writer for fiction. That's cool. Because I think there's that understanding. of being really concise with your words, being very specific with your words.

We only have so much time to say so much. And I think that was a really good discipline ultimately. Yeah, keeps it succinct basically. Yeah, yeah. What does your writing process look like for fiction? So do you plan it out? Do you just start writing? How does it go?

Like, how much can I curse on this podcast? Oh, however much you need to. it's a mess it's really fits and starts so yeah I have two kids although one one just finish his first year of college and one is about to graduate from high school but through this all

you know there have been kids through most of my writing career and dogs and all of it and jobs and so it's a little bit fits and starts you know where do you find the time not just the actual time time but like the mental time and totally there are months that go by where I won't write a thing and then and then I'll get into something. Yeah.

So it just really depends. And also because I work for myself now, it's like, like I'm currently in production on something. We're about to go dark. Thank God. Because it actually times out exactly with the launch of Just Amelia. I'm looking forward to having time in the summer to start kind of getting back into it. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm I'm also like, I like writing with things happening around me. Okay. Like writing in a coffee shop. In a place where there's noise or even in the library just because there are people.

I think if I'm like sitting in my house by myself, there's like a lot of laundry that gets done. We call that procrastic cleaning in this household. So good at it. Yeah. Sometimes the laundry sounds. better than like creating something out of nothing. I guess, well, with this one, it's a little bit different. So actually, I'm just going to go right into asking, like, what was your inspiration for?

It's a very unique premise. People have kind of already heard. Like, it's like, it's a woman, but three versions of her at different ages, stuck in an elevator. How, like, what came to you as the inspo for this one? So, you know, they're stuck in an elevator. And the truth is it actually happened because. I was for like a fraction of a second stuck on an elevator in the elevator where this takes place, right? The friendship meets metro elevator.

It probably was like, you know, like a jerk. I mean, it was so fast. And two other people in the elevator with me who were very different people, you know, racially and age-wise from me. Originally, I thought, wouldn't that be interesting to have this interplay of these very different people and how they would help each other get out of this elevator? Yeah. I don't remember entirely when the switch happened when it was like, actually the hardest person to be stuck in an elevator with might be myself. Yes. So, and then I think as soon as I got that idea, it just became really fun, right? Like, yeah. How do you confront yourself when you're trapped with yourself?

Yes. It was. That's a good question, even if you're not in the elevator. It's a good question. Yeah, yeah. And even though I really talk about it, I don't know if I have a great answer anymore. Right. I don't know if we ever completely figure that one out. We probably spend our whole of life trying to figure it out. But character-wise, so it's kind of three characters, and it's also kind of not three characters. So how did you approach, like, making them, like their own characters?

because they are different because they've been through a different amount of things. How did you approach creating three characters that were separate, but also the same person? Right. I think it was a lot easier, obviously, with the middle-aged woman and the younger teenage girl, because I could sort of put myself in their shoes a lot more easily. It's a lot harder with Millie, who's 77, because obviously I haven't been 77 yet. And I'm not an actor. I've never tried to act except for like in high school and guys and dolls when I was told to lip sync because I can't sing. That was like the extent of my acting career.

But I kind of think it's a little bit like that, right? Where you have to really sort of go deep and try to imagine what things would feel like for this person you're trying to create. Yeah. And I don't know. I just, I think that that's the closest I can come to is like. Like you really just sit with it and marinated it and just you try different things out and they feel real or they feel false. And you kind of know hopefully. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. The other cool thing about the story is it's kind of like a genre mashup a little bit. There's like kind of like psychological drama. It's definitely like speculative fiction. Some people might call it sci-fi since it's definitely. a bit of time travel happening.

But also, like, the tone is, like, both, like, very kind of funny in a sardonic way and also, like, serious and emotionally reflective in other ways. So did you know you were going to want, like, all of those elements, or did you kind of start writing? And that's kind of just what it turned out to be. Yeah. I mean, the latter, absolutely. Yeah.

I don't, I, when I was just listening to one of your other podcasts and he was talking about being a gardener or, what was it a gardener or a, what's it, you know, the word, I'm forgetting the word. I gather, not a gardener or a, maybe it was gather. But anyway, like pants or plot or whatever you want to call. Okay. Yeah. I can't write until I'm writing. Yeah. I mean, like, I can't.

My brain doesn't kind of go into that zone until my peers are on my key. board and I'm looking at the screen. I'd love to say I could do it longhand, but I can't. But I need to be in the process for the process to happen. So the idea, like I envy people who can plot out a book. I have no idea how they do that. I don't think I'm capable of telling a fully linear story, first of all, like none of my books are linear. I sort of, I'm the kind of writer. I write myself into a corner and then I'm like, holy shit, what did I do? And then I have to find a way to write myself out of that. Yeah. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. But that's sort of fun. It's like you're going on this little adventure in your mind and you try to figure out how to get out of

this maze or how to get into this maze and then how to get out of the maze. And again, sometimes it totally fails. I mean, I have two other projects that are like 50,000 words in and I'm just stuff because I can't figure out how to get out of those mazes, right? I will eventually, maybe, or maybe I'll throw them out. But, you know, it does happen that we'll go pretty deep into something and then be like, yeah, this is. But so as far as like the genre question, I don't think about it. And I was actually so pleased that you booked me because you mostly do like thrillers. It's not, like, I don't. And I, I think it's hard when you have a book that isn't like a specific genre when you're trying to publicize it because, you know, people like things to fit into boxes.

And yes, I was thrilled because I do feel that's just silly. I was thrilled to be on a podcast that's killers. But it's like, I like that this is a mashup of genres. I love that it's not fully, you can't put it in a box and which makes no sense for me because it's not how I feel or think or live in this world. I don't. I think most of us do, right? We all have lots of dimensions and things that interest us. Yeah. Yeah, I really, it's like speculative fiction is always really interesting to me.

I also think, I think when I got the pitch, it was literally in the midst of severance airing. And like the pitch said like, oh, it's comparable to severance. And I was like, okay, like, give me, please. I haven't seen severance. it's okay it definitely fits what what severance does what the things that reminded me of severance is it like very much is addressing like grief and different selves and like splitting ourselves off in the ways that we handle grief and trauma um so I think those were like the big things that were very similar and what was happening I just I do really enjoy when people

people like use some kind of like unique plot structure or whatever to explore just kind of like all those feelings. If you're an author, chances are high that you just want to spend your time writing and maybe reading, not thinking about social media, what to create and what to post. And the good news is I have a solution for you. With just three hours of in-person filming, you can receive 90 days or three months worth of social media content. The content is a mixture of videos, photos, edited reels. And when you receive the content, you also receive a PDF that's a content calendar that links to all of the content tells you exactly when to post it and gives you an option for captions.

And if you've ever felt like you're tired of just talking about your book all the time, we will help you come up with ideas that are general content for your page that's not just all about your books. If you are tired of thinking about your social media presence and just want to get back to writing, check out the link in the description. So, and I don't know if you know anything about like parts work or internal family systems. But that, it also kind of reminded me of that because kind of the basis of IFS, which is like the internal family systems, is that you even have like, I can't remember what the number is. Like maybe like 10 different versions within yourself that function in a certain way. So there's like the protector that like acts a very specific way or there's a hammer what it's called.

There's the destructor. Like there's the version that like if it's just all too much, sometimes the destructor comes through and is like I'm just going to ruin everything because maybe that will feel better. So it kind of helps you like have a dialogue with your multiple internal selves that we all kind of do have. what yeah what was it like like having these characters kind of helping each other process uh just like these big things and these big feelings and big moments of their life their life no it's a fair question and you know it's funny because i like like i said i didn't go into this thinking i'm going

to write x you know and it's it's yeah it just sort of happened organically and as much as it is fiction It is not autobiography. I thankfully did not, you know, well, I can't, I don't want to know spoiler alerts, but I, right. The horrible thing that happened is not something that happened to me. Well, I have had my own traumas and grief, so that's not the one. Right. But I do have a daughter and I do have who is currently 17 and a mother who is early 80s. And I do think a lot about these different dynamics.

I hear your dog and my dog just put up. up his head like I there's a dog in a second and I think you know not to reveal too much because she'll kill me but you know high school wasn't easy and for her and it wasn't easy for me and so I spent a lot of time sort of looking at her looking at myself and trying to remember what it felt like to be that age in trying to be a parent somebody who's that age going through different issues but like still struggling with different things that you struggle with when you're a young woman growing up in this world. And I look at my mom aging and sort of what she's, I have no idea really what it feels like to her, obviously, to be her. But I think about it. I think about what it looks like. And it's funny,

I think when you're young, you don't think so much about being older, but when you hit 55 now, and I think about it a lot. You know, I think a lot about like, wow, it feels like yesterday that I was right 25 so that means that oh my gosh tomorrow i'm going to be 85 right right so what does that mean and how do i see myself and and how do i be kind to myself because i'm really good at being awful to myself right so we all i think so many of us are women especially so good at being so bad to ourselves yes i think trying to find ways to give ourselves a little bit of grace really hard really hard and I think one of the things I loved most about these women was that they had to you know they have to how to love each other and therefore themselves right yes to give away too much but right you know what I mean

though yeah that was I was even going to say that I was going to say without like giving anything away I really did enjoy that kind of like a decent amount of the resolution was that if she or they, all of them, however we want to say it, could talk to themselves or herself nicer. A lot of suffering would actually go away. And it seems so simple, but it's so difficult. It's so hard. It is so hard. But on a very personal level, like all writing is sort of cathartic or therapeutic.

And again, it's not my story, but there is something about forcing myself to make my character who is the same person. be kinder to herself. It has helped me. Or maybe it's a, I mean, I have heard people say that, like, as you get older, you like yourself more. Right. So maybe it's just a confluence of events that I spent a few years, a lot of years, thinking about how these, this one woman and her selves interact, but, um, yes.

And that I'm getting older and realize that it's important to be kinder to yourself. Right. Yeah. And it is, I, I was just talking to one of my friends about, um, Like I saw a quote that was talking about like, what if you talk to yourself the way you would like any of your friends if they came to you with something. Right. And it's so wild to how hard it is to do in the moment sometimes. But then like you're saying, I think when you're younger, you obviously, you have no grasp of like you kind of know what you think you want your adult life to be.

But you don't actually know what it's going to be like to be in your 30s and your 40s. and your 50s, like, all of it. You don't know it until you're in it. Right. And so then I think, like, with the version of Amelia who's, like, in the middle, I feel like it's easier to look back on your, like, 17-year-old self and be like, oh, wow, like, you were doing what you needed to do to, like, survive or whatever. But for some reason, it's, like, in that present moment that it gets harder to do, to, to, like,

allow yourself that space. Exactly. It's, it's, it's really, it's hard. Life is hard. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. And it's, it's a little painful to, to sometimes have to look at your, you know, again, looking at your future self is, is, that is fair fiction, whereas my younger self, I can do that. And I, so funny story. I actually met my husband when I was 14 or 15. Wow. turn 15 and then we didn't see each other again until i was 32 right wow so but i have photos of the day we met and i was recently looking at them and like looking at that girl and that girl was not a happy girl like that girl was really struggling and you can almost see it in the photos and i just like my heart kind of broke for her and i wanted to be like this is going to work out yeah it's

going to be okay and it's not going to be easy and there's going to be a lot of challenges and life is life but it's going to be okay and and yeah how do you get that 17 15 14 year old girl to understand that yeah i don't know again i have one and i struggle with that on a daily basis she's yet to read books so we'll see what she says when she reads it right yeah it is it's i feel like the thing that's happened more for me and i kind of like approach it from a proof or like an evidence gathering standpoint, the older I got, the easier it is to believe that like something might seem really terrible, but that life will go on and like it will improve. But I almost feel like it's harder to do when you're younger because you don't have these experiences built up that are

like the proof to your brain, to your heart, whatever, that things can keep going and they can improve and that you've survived hard things. Right. There's no evidence. Yeah. You're just like, uh what and it's the hard things like will change you um but it doesn't necessarily mean for the worst right it right change you in ways and make you a more complex and perhaps more interesting if you let it right you know yeah it can make you more empathetic there's kind of all kinds of stuff that can happen with those like scarier moments yeah um so you kind of said you you kind of observed like your relationship with your daughter and your mom. But there is this really complicated dynamic between Amelia and her mom.

Was there something that kind of drew you toward writing that? Or did it just kind of come out as you were writing the story? I was, I think it just came out, but I think it came out because I was looking for something that the three women. would obviously have in common that they would all that would impact them at these different critical points in their lives and like what could impact you more than something that happened between you and your mother. Yeah. And I will tell you, I was really nervous when my own mother read the book because I was like,

oh God, because Amelia's mom's not that great, right? Right. So I was kind of like, oh, no. And it was such a relief when my mom was like, I loved it. Oh, that's good. I was like, oh, thank goodness. Because it's not about me and my mom. I mean, obviously, there's always some little bits of this and that and fiction, but it's not.

It's not. I think I was looking for something very, like I said, just that for these three women at different stages of their lives to have, like to be impacted by in very different ways. And it took me a while to actually get there to get to this point where I was like, I needed something. I mean, so, you know, you've got one about to go to college, one struggling in a marriage, and one struggling with her adult child. And like, what would be a thing that would, you know, make it dramatic for each of them? And that's, you know, how I landed there. That's a good point. It is because, like, the mother wound is just far reaching for your whole life. Because you kind of have to, especially if you have a pretty pronounced one, you do have to kind of re-parent yourself at each stage. And there's not like, reaching out to that person when you're in like a difficult stage you just have an absence of it that makes a lot of sense yeah i actually did some research like i i've read i think it's called the mother wound actually but i read a book about what it's like for people who lose their mother in adolescence and how that impacts them so it's not like it's not like a deeply researched book obviously but it's

i think about that a lot um what it would mean no matter what your relationship is with your mother what what would it mean for your mother not to be there? And I think that helped too, informing how some of their reactions happen. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it really sets the stage for how you feel about yourself because she's like your same gender parent or whatever. But then also like how you interact with other women as well. It has such a profound effect on that part. Yeah. But it's so cute. I see your... I think that must be. I think that must be your dog in the background. We've got one switching positions. I guess your dog must move dark with like some white spots because it's like little fireflies

kind of. Yes, just the tip of her tail just showing up. Yeah, it's just like white on the very end. She's like, I need to get comfy. I also loved the way that like the unique structure of this all. Kind of like they help the three parts of herself. It helps her address trauma that she's kind of repressed and just not wanted to deal with. So did that, did you go into the story? I don't know how much you can talk about it. But did you go into the story knowing that like there was going to be something like that that, okay, no. Yeah. That's crazy. I mean, because it feels so fitting for like the plot structure to do it that way. I, yeah, I mean, this book was written across many years.

Oh, yeah. I couldn't remember. It was funny. I was trying to figure out when I first started it. And I finally found the word doc that was like the first instance of writing it. So it was 2017. So that's a pretty good gestation period. Yeah.

In that time, I had, you know, like I said, I've got two other. manuscripts that are pretty deep in that I have, you know, jettisoned in. So it's like I was kind of leapfrogging with each of them. And I got to a point. I think in the in the pandemic when I was like, okay, pick one. Just one, finish one. Like see which one you can do. And that's how I landed on just Amelia was that was sort of a coin toss almost of like which one I was going to push through. Yeah. It was I was also thinking when you were talking, about the genres and like not wanting to put the book in a box which kind of made me giggle inside because it also takes place in an elevator the whole time and it sounds like mostly that

was just because you were stuck in an elevator for a second too but I think it also like that like the really contained space kind of works like not on a metaphor level maybe like an analogy, I don't know, where like, can you hear him scratching the couch behind me? I totally can. Okay. Yeah. Hey, are you comfy now? Okay, he laid down. I just passed out now. He's like, whatever, yeah. The, oh, the, like, very contained space, there's, like, you can't run from the things that, like, you've been avoiding. So did that ever, like, as you're writing, where you kind of like, oh, this kind of works on that level, too.

Yeah, absolutely, right? They're like, you literally can't run away. And for a long time, it only existed in the elevator. And then some barely readers were like, we're like, this is totally claustrophobic and you have to get out of it later. And that's how it opened up, which was really, really helpful because it was too much just to be stuck there for a reader. I mean, it's a lot for the Amelia's, but yeah. Right. that makes sense yeah we do need it and kind of just like the way it plays to get comes together it's funny

too like I didn't even agree the fact that I actually pushed through most of the writing during lockdown it's kind of funny that's not even crazier too right we were all sort of stuck yeah that's crazy I wanted to interrupt this episode really quickly I have a goal of monetizing book wild but I would love to do it without having to have ads in podcasts and one way that that I can do that is through my Patreon community. For those who don't know, Patreon is a community platform that allows creators to share what they're creating behind a paywall. And so that means exclusive content or early releases. The book Wild Patreon has two tiers. The first tier is the bookish tier. And at that tier, you get all of the episodes out a day early and you get access

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We meet on Sundays. We are international right now, so Sundays are the best way to do it, and we meet on Zoom, and we all pick a book and we talk about it and then we talk about everything else we read during the month and then we pick another book for the next month. So it's been so much fun so far and we'd love to have you join the book club. So if you'd like to support the bookwild podcast, you can go to the Patreon link in the show notes and you can sign up for whichever to your interest you. And if you're

looking for a free way to support the show, if you can like and review it on whichever platform you listen to, that helps so much. Was there anything that like stood out to you as like a favorite part of writing it? Was there like a character perspective that was your favorite to write? Or was it just kind of like all of it? I really got into. There are two specific kind of disturbing scenes, but that happen, you know, when the traumatic event happens. And as just sort of upsetting as they were, I think I really enjoyed writing them because I really

really had to work hard to imagine what it felt like to be in that moment. And like all of the senses that are involved in that moment. And when I look back and like, you know, it's funny. Like you can sort of, there are certain scenes when I know exactly where I was sitting when I wrote them. Oh, yeah. And then the rest of it's a blur, right? Yeah.

Yeah. And it's, or like even sometimes I used to, you know, Rastelje, meet up with a friend in coffee shop, like who was sitting across for me when I wrote that. Yeah. And I though that scene, at least the initial part of that scene, I know that I was sitting in politics and prose, which is my favorite bookstore and they have a cafe underneath called The Den. And I was sitting in this awful table next to the bathroom. Like, I can picture it perfectly. Yeah, but it's kind of cool because my book line. which is going to happen there.

So I'm pretty excited about that too. Oh, that is so cool. Yeah. Yeah. If you're ever in Washington, you see, by the way,

it is such a great bookstore. It is just, it's wonderful. Wonderful. And they have just fabulous events and it's, yeah, it's the best. Yeah.

That's awesome. There is some of the, like, mental health and suicidal ideation as well. Yeah. It is in the, synopsis, so I don't think I'm giving anything away there. How did you approach writing that part of her story? Yeah. I mean, that's easy. That's something that, you know, all of my books that exists.

Because, I mean, I'm very candid about it. I've struggled with depression my whole life. Yeah. And I've thought about it a lot. My father's a psychiatrist. So my mother's a therapist. I sort of live in that world. Wow. My husband's father's a psychiatrist. It's like, my aunt is a therapist. So there's a lot of there's a lot of that. But I think, yeah, I think about mental health a lot. I think about it mental illness, mental health, wellness, all of it. So everything I've ever written has something to do with them. Yeah. I'm also very much of the camp that we need to not be stigmatized about any of this. And I think it's gotten a lot better. When I was a kid struggling with things, it was really a shame.

And, like, you didn't talk about it. You didn't talk about the medication. You didn't talk about the therapy. Right. And now it's quite open. It is better. Yeah. It's healthier.

You know, it's different, but I do think it's ultimately better. I mean, I do know that sort of becomes like a competition, like who is on worse, whatever. Right. But at the end of the day, I think that it is better. that we're able to talk about these things yeah we don't have to compare our trauma we just kind of want to face it and deal with it as much as we can yeah yeah well i've loved it in case you couldn't tell um so especially anyone because i was hyper fixated on severance so there are definitely probably some listeners were as well and if you were this is this might fill the severance shaped void in your life at

this point. Do you read a lot too? I always ask if you've read anything that you've loved recently. Okay, so I just started, I actually like brought it next to me so I could pull it up. I know we're on the gets mostly podcast, but do you know this book? Wait, I don't, but the cover is so cool. The calculation of volume one and there's a seven-part series that, where is she from if she's a Swedish, Nordic, I don't know, Danish or something, but it's translated. and it all takes place on one day. Like the woman is stuck on one day, but the world keeps going around her.

Her life keeps going around her, and she keeps having to live in this day. And it's beautiful. Like it is, I literally, I mean, it's tiny, right? See, like,

it's like what? Oh, yeah. I mean, there are seven of them, but I think only two are in English, so I'm excited to get the next one. Yeah. But I just picked it up

and I got so excited about it. but I don't know. I'm also like a total geek. I made my, you know, I was a Russian literature major in college. Yeah. And I made one of my book clubs read The Master and Margarita. Have you ever read that? I haven't read that one. Okay. It's, it's a hard book, but it's totally trippy because it's got like, there's a love story, there's the devil, there's Jesus, there's magic realism, there's like history, Soviet real, like, it's just this huge satire of the soul. Soviet Union. It's got a whole bunch of politics. It's like got everything. But it's really heady and it's like hard to understand if you don't, you kind of have to brush up on your Bible.

You have to brush up on your Soviet history. You know, like all these different things. And actually I made my book club watch a lecture on YouTube by this professor to sort of understand the context of it. But it's like I love these. And like you're saying like this doesn't fit a genre and I'm not comparing myself to one of the greatest Soviet novelists of all the time. But I love that it doesn't fit a genre. It's like this completely out there, you know, kind of got a little bit of everything kind of books. So super fun if you're in, you know, if you're up for like a classic that takes a lot of work. Right. It's not a beat Yeah. This is this is more of beach read. This is the calculation of volume one. Yeah. Not like a beach read romance, but just that it's it's not a hard read. It's right.

You can kind of just get into it and yeah, there's not as much processing. Yeah. Going on while you're reading. Exactly. Exactly. I love that. I love that though that this, did you say master and margarita? Master and margarita. Yeah. I love that there's like prep you need to do. I mean, I would just say that because I think that even though I was just like I read it in college, which is obviously a long time ago. And I was when I started college, I was a Soviet studies major. And then the Soviet Union collapsed. And so I had to change my major. And that's how I'm a Russian literature major.

And so I understood the context of this novel. But many decades later, like I needed a brush up to understand what I was reading. Yeah. But I have to say, given everything that's going on in our world right now, it is really, it just feels really relevant and really timely. Yeah. I could see that. What drew you to Russian literature or Soviet studies? I keep meaning to ask.

Yeah. Well, so in high school, actually in middle school, my school taught Russian back when nobody did. Oh, wow. And at the time, and it's funny because I've said my age, so there's no shame in this. but like at the time, you know, it was the 80s and it was the evil empire. And so to me it was just like really super intriguing, you know, like, oh, I want to learn this language where I want to learn about the evil empire. So I started studying.

And then so I spoke Russian and it just was really fascinating. And the literature, I mean, you know, it's the best of the best. It's so good. And so, yeah, I mean, it just, and I've spent a lot of time there. I've lived there. I've worked there. It's been years. I don't speak a word of Russian anymore. It's kind of funny. It's all gone out. I was like, getting from Tom Brokow once upon a time, and now I can't even like speak a sender. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you're not using it, it goes away.

But it does come. I mean, you know, Anna Karinianas mentioned in Just Amelia, it's definitely something that still resonates with me. And I often pick up old classics. in rough times, like during the pandemic, I reread Anna Creni and I, read the brothers of it, I read crime and punishment if you haven't read it, and you like thrillers. Like it's, it's, yeah, I read it in AP English in high school. So I couldn't answer any questions about it. I think you'll have a whole different perspective.

Probably. Yeah. And yeah, I just, they're, they're smart. They make you think, but they're also just beautifully written and very well. Yeah. You can just be there and you feel, you feel where you are very much. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But I also, I mean, you know, I like easier to read books too. I mean, I'm not like, no, no, no. No. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, definitely, especially over the summer looking for some.

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. You know, it's funny. So Just Amelia was published by an independent publisher. publisher. And what's, what's cool is that there's a cohort of like the summer front list authors. And we've, over the past year, sort of gotten to know each other. We have Zoom meetings, and I've read a number of their books. And there are two that I really love that I'm going to

give a book for. And it's not that I don't not love the other ones. Actually, I haven't read all of them. But wait, now I'm going to mess up. One is closer by Miriam Gershaw, which is a it's also really topical because there's a lot about race and relations and it's really wonderful and then the other way oh my god i'm terrible i'm just i just write chris mclean johnson i'm sorry which is epistolary novel between three very very different people and it's it's a tiny it's a really short like you can read it in one setting kind of novel but it's one of those books that you're just like yeah and you're just like and what's cool is like i think because it's an independent press,

I think none of these books actually fit a genre specifically. They're all a little bit sort of in their own realm, and they're wonderful. So that's been a cool experience, getting to know these other writers. That's cool. Yeah, they're like, yeah. And I mean, they're published by an independent press

because for whatever reason, the big five, we're like, this doesn't fit in this box for us. And so we need to find some other place. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes that's like I just I think of any genre that you would read if you just keep reading so much of it. Sometimes you do just need like a break from it or like I read too many like this is funny because I just had a podcast about it.

I do like the but I read a bunch of domestic suspense in a row one month and I was like okay I need something totally different though now. So it's always good to have some stuff that like like for me like processing emotions and like ourselves. at different stages in life is very intriguing to me. So that's what was very intriguing about this too. So sometimes it's nice to just like read something that's not conventional and is maybe just like one of your other interests. Like it peaks one of your interests. Do you find like when you read this sort of a same larger genre over,

like how did that impact your sort of daily life? You're reading domestic thrillers. And you're like, good question. That's a good point. I don't know if it sometimes it will be. I'll be like, why has this car been following me for so long? And I'm like, I'm in the middle of a suburb in Indiana. I don't think anything is happening because of it. But then even I do other episodes with like bookstagrammers and my friend, my friend Gare is always like, what are you doing walking your dogs alone early in the morning when your husband's on vacation. And I'm like, I mean, I'm walking too. Pitbulls. Like,

I mean, they're nuts. But I'm always like, I think I'm okay. But there were a few times where like, obviously it's darker in the winter at 6 a.m. than it is in the summer. So like they get used to like, oh, we go at 6. But then it starts getting like darker and darker. And there was someone like, I literally were in a town where like it's farms and then like warehouses. and then like vinyl villages all over the place. So I'm literally walking in a park that's like in the middle of a bunch of warehouses, like Amazon. I would be terrified.

And I'm just, I just, I just know a whole number of things. That sounds like hard playing to me. Yeah, yeah. So it was like when he brought that up, I was like, oh, damn, you're right.

He was like, Kate, we read thrillers. What are you doing? Right, right. So I did. I did. I was like,

maybe we should wait until it's completely light outside. because there like was someone there one of those mornings and I was like oh no you're writing too right you're working on your own book yes yeah yeah it's so my like short pitch is that um oh a girl i mean she's like in her early 20s um is working for basically a pop culture magazine and she gets this she kind of has like a she's known for her column where she kind of writes like a she's known for her column where she kind of writes like snarky, uh, writeups of like certain celebrities. Um, and someone reaches out and asks her to do a piece on their daughter. And it's this like over overly popular, like huge family, uh, reality TV star, basically. And when she was in college, she, no, she saw her, this daughter named

Kaya, kill her best friend Rory in college. And because they were so big and the family is so wealthy, she knew that she couldn't do anything about it. So she kind of had to like get herself to move on with her life. But now they're asking her to come do this piece on them. And she's like telling everyone around her like, I can handle it. It's going to be fine. But she's definitely saying yes to it to go try to because they want her to like live with them for like a week or something. And so she's going to try to get the evidence and actually finally avenge her friend's death. So that's what I'm working on right now. That sounds awesome. I'm like, I wish it was a true story because we're looking for a new film project to develop a documentary that is. Yeah. That sounds great.

And you're a plotter then, right? Like you've figured out what this story is. So it's interesting when you were talking about the plotting versus panting is like I definitely do like the first time I talked to Ashley Winstead she talked about story genius and when I read that book I was like it all a sudden made sense to me I was like oh that's how you could write a novel there is like a structure in a format to follow I definitely wrote all the time when I was like elementary school middle school, high school, and then just did it in adulthood until recently. But when I read that book, I was like, oh, okay, like this helps me understand, like the emotional plot line versus like the external plot happening. And it made it make a lot of sense to me. And so, and then I read Save the Cat

Writes a novel and that even more gave me structure. But what I did start realizing was like I was trying to outline literally every single scene. And it was getting to a part where I was like, I think I need to just start writing. So I still think you would probably call me, I'm like closer to a plotter than a pancer, but I also realized I needed to just like start writing. And then I was having those moments where it was like, oh, I didn't plan that, but that came up. And so it's kind of like both. I've heard people call it like a tent pole method. Like you know like your inciting incident, how you break into the second act, your midpoint. Like, you know. I definitely knew all of those.

I just didn't outline every single. I stopped trying to outline every single scene in between those points. Right. Which probably makes for a richer experience. Actually, I think so writing it, right? Yeah. Like letting your mind kind of. Yes.

You're a little bit more. Yeah. I'm curious, like, because I was, again, listening to some of your other shows. And as somebody trying to write a book, you're talking to all of these different authors. And like, does that help you or hinder you? I think it's helped me because one of my big takeaways is there's not just one way to write a book. So I also, I would love if the world was black and white, there's the part of my brain that always wants to be like, oh, this is exactly how you do something or like, you either do this or you do that. And so the main thing that was coming to me, even like in that first year of doing it, I'm in year four, I think.

was like, oh, there's just not. There's just not one way to write it. And so I think hearing how many different ways people do it helped me get over the idea of like, how do you become a novel writer or how do you write a novel? It helped me not be so rigid about it. Yeah. One of the best things that is a woman named Susan Streep is an author. She's written a million books. And she had four kids. And I remember somebody asking her, how she wrote and she was like I have four kids like literally like you know when I have a second I sit down and I write and and I think that that sort of gave me permission to not have to like I have to get up it's you know 530 in the morning and cram in my hour before the kids get up or whatever that I

could of figure out how to weave it into my life rather than be so you know structured about it because it just wasn't working for me trying I'm not a morning person first of all so getting up early well yeah that could be hard to try to do that yeah no no no it's not going to work not going to work yeah yeah Hallie Sutton mentioned a book and now I can't remember the title but she explained the concept to me and the idea was it like the title is something along the lines of like fitting writing in as like a busy woman like is the gist of it um and it's about like when you're standing in front of the microwave waiting for something like instead of scrolling write a paragraph and like the idea of like what you're saying like it doesn't have to be oh i wake up every morning and write for an

hour or i write until i hit a thousand words and for some people that might work yeah um i know like jamie lynn hendricks has always said like i think hers is maybe 1500 a day wow um but then she also doesn't have kids like uh which she even points out um and so it's like she can just wake up and be like i just write until i hit that and then i move on if you have like anything else going on i think it it probably is more uh sustainable long term to be able to tell yourself like it's okay if i just write two paragraphs it's okay if i do it while i'm like waiting to get my oil changed or whatever so i've been trying to like think about it more like that because we uh I also essentially work for myself, too.

So, like, that never stops at a certain. It doesn't, like, stop at 5 p.m. So I've been trying to incorporate that a little bit more, too. It's funny. One of my writing groups, we used to call ourselves 266, because that was the number of words on a random page, you know, that we selected at that moment. And the colors of 266, and the idea was you just had to write 266 words.

And actually just Amelia was very much written with that. And usually you use to Android 266 and you keep writing. But some days you don't. And you've done thrown a lot of adjectives to just flesh it out so you don't feel that. But it's doable. It's funny though because now our name is SFD, which is shitty first draft, which is also helpful. Because we can all get way too precious with things. Like it just gets so easy to just not write.

I know. Yeah, I always try to remember every now and then that quote circulates in. again where Jordan Beale talks about like he tells himself the first draft is just getting the sand in the sandbox so that later he can make sand castles and I'm like okay that's what I need to tell my perfectionist that part of myself that still lives in my head. That's kind of fitting is actually I think a lot of novelists are perfectionists. I bet we all get in our own way way much. Yeah. You have to figure out how to let yourself write that, you know, should be first draft or whatever. It just won't happen otherwise.

I know. It's kind of like starting anything new in your life. You're like, oh, I have to go through that part where it doesn't feel magnificent. But if you want to do it, you're just going to have to get through that part. Yeah. I can spend hours on a sentence. Right. Like not to move forward, right?

Yes. I know. I've been thinking about starting a suburb. So that it's like I am forcing myself to write something every week or every other week. And I was like starting in on it yesterday or last night. And I was doing the same thing. And I went back and like reread the first paragraph. And then I was like, this would be better.

This would be better. And I'm like, I need to just write it all out. And like, then I can edit. Like cool. But what are you just not going to write? What do you think in your substack would be? Like how would it differentiate from all this? Yeah.

So, so here is a quick pitch. of it. I really loves the White Lotus. I mean, all the seasons, but this year too. And so I was also listening to the companion podcast that they had. And Mike White, for anyone who doesn't know, is the creator and the writer of it. And he was talking about this season, the third season, focused a lot on spirituality, religion, and kind of like your own personal version of spirituality as well. And he was talking with the hosts about how he kind of thinks story is his religion. And he was like, it sounds really dramatic. And he's like, but I'm getting choked up even saying it. And it just like resonated with me so much. And then I was scrolling TikTok like within that same week.

And this account got put in front of me. It's called No Nonsense Spirituality. If anyone is intrigued by it. And I actually have my notes here, but she basically talks about religion from a sociological perspective. And that's how she's approached it and how she has studied it, essentially. And someone had asked the question. So like if you think religion was created from an evolutionary perspective to like help us feel good in life, our atheists actually better off or are they struggling or agnostics either way.

And so her answer, she said that from a. an evolutionary perspective. Religion provides community, ways to experience awe and transcendent moments, rituals, ways to interact with your subconscious and conscious self and a way to process death. And I personally kind of like deconstructed my religion in my 20s and now I'm in my 30s, but something kind of clicked when I heard her say that and I had just heard Mike White talking about how story is his religion. And I was like, maybe it's not so woo-woo to say that because I'm in my 30s, but I'm

I started to realize that stories have provided me a sense of community. I've, like, connected with so many people with this. I very much experience awe and, like, transcendent moments, especially. I don't know if you've seen sinners, but we saw sinners in 70 millimeter IMAX. And one of the scenes, like, just, like, goosebumps the whole scene. And I'd even seen the movie before now on 70 millimeters. But, like, I've definitely experienced awe and transcendence through story. rituals. I talk about stories twice, at least twice a week, every week. I read them. I'm writing

them. There's definitely like rituals built into my every week now around it. And then ways to interact with your subconscious and conscious self, I've had so many breakthroughs, like watching something, reading something. Especially in my 20s, it was helping me. I grew up, in a very emotionally stunted, as a pastor's kid as well, I guess, as like the rest to complete that. And so especially in my 20s, there were stuff that like, I just didn't even know what I had been missing in my childhood. So so many stories and TV shows, whatever, helped me also process those things because sometimes it's what you didn't get that can be just as traumatic as what did happen, basically. So I feel like stories have helped me even find some of those things and then heal it. And then even a way to process death, I've like, even, well, your just Amelia even goes into that.

So it's like I've read about different people's journeys with grief or with trauma or losing someone. And I feel like it's it's helped me understand like what death means to me or how I how I would process it. So that being said, that's, I'm basically saying the first entry that I want to write. And then I'm thinking of then talking about ways that stories each week did something like that for me. I love this. I have just been in my head and I'm like, I need to write about it. This would be good for a start. I mean, there's so many things.

I know we're going over time. But like I love this. And it's funny. I was just talking to somebody from, you know, my other had as a documentary filmmaker and we're a new project. And so we've been spending some time working with talking to people who are involved in psychedelic medication. Oh, yeah. And, you know, one of the things with people, it seems to be really helpful for a lot of people who have PTSD. And one of the things is, this is like when you're on these trips, you're going back into your story.

Mm-hmm. You're never living your story and confronting your story. And so it is all about story. And then if you think about that, like, this is all happening in your brain on chemical level. So, like, whether the story is coming because you're taking a drug or because you're reading a book or, like, you're writing something. It's like all sort of operating in this, I don't know, I think you're onto something. Yeah. And then as I was kind of writing with it, along the lines where you're saying there, is like, then I was realizing like all religion.

have like a religious text that is just a bunch of stories. Yep. So like in the same sense, it's like even if you are a believer of a certain religion, it's also like story that's like teaching you that religion or explaining that religion to you. Absolutely. And like really great stories, you know. Yeah. What is the Bible?

Like Adelics is really fascinating the way that can rewire. I think it like it helps so much with neuroplasticity. I think is what the thing is it helps you get out of the. neural pathways that have been just like burned into your brain. Because you're telling yourself the same story over and over and over and it's giving you a different way to tell that story, right? Yes. I think it's absolutely, I haven't tried it myself, but I, I'm not open to me. I just haven't. I definitely am open to it. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, how do you say, like psychedelic curious? Right. Totally. I know. I mean, sometimes it's so hard to do without

intervention. I mean, like, I take an SSRI even. So it's like, so we know that there are things that can help you have a better quality of life even. Right. Chimic, from a chemical example. Stories that these people are telling us are just like incredible. I bet. That's fascinating. You're going to tell me when that comes out. Well, we haven't done anything. I don't even know what we're doing with it. Okay. We're just in the, my partner and I, we spend a lot of time just talking to people to try to figure out what we're doing. And then, I don't know that we are or aren't, but it's a really fascinating process because that is cool. It's a lot along the way.

Yeah. Yeah. That sounds fascinating. It's really incredible. And it's really incredible just to see how it's shifting so fast, like in terms of, even in terms of what's legal and what's not, you know. Right. Yeah.

I know. That's the hard part. Yeah. It's kind of just need to live in Colorado. Yeah, exactly. So we have access. Exactly. Oh, gosh.

Well, where can people follow you to stay up to date with all? Yeah. So, well, I have my website, Jennifer.com, which I'm trying to get better at making better. It's funny because, you know, I am not a digital native and I'm trying to get comfortable with social media and I think I'm doing a little bit better. So I am on TikTok and Instagram and I did have, I'm having a younger person help me with some of this and it's been really great because I kind of needed somebody to push me and say these things that are weird and uncomfortable.

Yes. Speaking of which I told her, wait, I'm going to turn on my, I have my phone over here. I told her I'd take a little bit. It's all right with you. Totally. Go for it. I don't know where is it. I told her I'd take a little bit of a video of you and me.

Wait, see. That's been really fun. I mean, it's been pushing me way out of my comfort zone. Yeah. And it's a whole other thing. It's a whole other thing. but it's I know you talk a lot about bookstagram. I'm just sort of like dabbling in the waters and trying to understand it.

But I love and TikTok too. Like I love that they're all of these young people who are obsessed with books because I really worry about the future of the book. And I don't care what genre it is. Like everyone needs to be reading. You need to have your mind challenge, your imagination challenge. And so I love that book talk is huge and that bookstagram. It's huge and I'm not like fluent in it, but right.

I'm trying. I'm trying. So yeah, so people can follow me on TikTok and on Instagram. And Facebook sort of, I guess, but like that's mostly like personal stuff. It is. Yeah. And you know, my website. Yeah.

So that's this is the other thing. Like the whole writing the book thing is a very, very different thing than. this part of the journey. This is what I was telling you before. Like I like, I'm like, oh, God, I never wear makeup. Like, what am I good? And I actually have two, like, local morning television appearances. And even though I used to work in TV, like, because I used to work in TV, I know you're

supposed to have, like, a face full of makeup. Right. They don't do your makeup anymore. I'm like, oh, no. Really? So I'm going to have to figure out how to, like, plaster stuff on my face. Oh, no. I know.

And I've actually been, like, going online. I'm like, I got, like, a contour thing. like I don't know what I'm doing. I have never been able to figure out contour. Like I don't I don't even wear a foundation anymore just like because like I'm just moisturized and that seems to be enough for me. But I've never been able to contour ever. I don't even know what I'm contouring.

I'm like it's just so I just figure well I guess I'm just going to live really washed out on TV but so be it happens to me too. Lighting's good. don't know. Like, I don't know what do I do with my hair? So I'm all stressed. That's like my big. People are like, are you excited about the book coming at? I'm like, I'm really worried about these morning shows. Oh my gosh. I know. Well, and so many authors are more introverted too. So like I feel like that's the other part of the challenge. So awkward. It's so awkward and it's so uncomfortable. And I've now done it a few times and I really never have gotten

comfortable with partly because I, you know, when my first book came out, when lying together came out, my wedding was at the same time and oh wow so they wound up getting a lot of attention right and the i had two friends actually tell me they were worried that i was developing a narcissistic personality disorder because i was promoting myself so much and i'm like how am i supposed and so i'm very self-conscious of it now it's like kind of got this in my bonnet of like oh yeah talk about my book oh that's weird that's uncomfortable that's annoying yeah like you have to it's like 20 years ago and it's still like, ye. I get it, though.

It's a big word to throw at you. Yeah. And I get it. Like, I mean, I'm like, how much is too much? You know, how many posts about the book is too much? And like, what's going to hit? What works? And, you know, obviously, you know, my friends or family are my biggest promoters.

But at some point, they're going to be like, okay, enough about just. Right. Yeah. I'm kind of getting sick of it. Yeah. That is that we help people with social media. and we're always like telling people to like what you're saying like sometimes you don't always want to be promoting your product your service whatever it is so it's like sometimes it is about

just like showing up doing other things even because because what you're saying you don't want to talk about it all the time but you still need to talk about it and I'm so grateful to you because honestly this is very first time this is like my first thing that I'm doing for just Amelia the first sort of promotional. Yeah. So you're like getting my feet wet and getting used to talking about it because I haven't really talked about it very much. Right.

I'm glad I could do that. I had, I think Rob Hart said that last year too that I was like the beginning of his tour and I was like, well, let's dive in. It's great. I was so excited again when I watched your other, a few other podcasts and I was just like, oh, you seem like somebody who is just so easy. And you are so easy to talk to you. So that makes it very comfortable.

That's good to hear. So thank you. I still get nervous when it's people I haven't met yet. So I get both sides of it, but I think it also helped me. I was just telling my husband this last night. I think now when I look back, I'm like, oh, it has also helped me realize, like, I can handle talking to people better than I thought I could. And like, it does get easier each time.

But I know what you mean. Like when you haven't really talked to someone yet and you're like, oh, no, how is this going to go? Have you had some that we're just like, oh, God, I can't really run this? Thankfully, only two. Well, and I have, I did end up publishing them. But I had, and I'm just going to be vague, I had co-authors where I had, I think I had like 11 questions written out. And like if I think of other questions, I'll still ask them.

And it was nine minutes. And that was all I could get. Like, I remember going into it, I'm like, I don't think I need more questions. Like, there's two of them. nine minutes long. It was nine minutes long. And I got off and I was like, that was so awkward. And then I had one other that was like about 15 minutes.

She was also like a debut author and I think in her early 20s. So like I got the vibe. She was just very nervous. Yeah. So but thankfully I mean I'm on episode like I think this will be 272. And so half of those are authors and half of those are book to grammars. But so I've done well. So I've only had to happen like that.

But since they happened, then you're always like, okay, I hope this person wants to talk with me. Yeah. You're really good at it. I mean, I think you do that professionally on the other side, right? Yeah. People for decades now. And it's hard. It's hard to get people talking sometimes.

I bet. Especially with documentaries, too. Like, I'm sure people are like, it takes a second to get them warmed up. Yeah. Well, yeah. Sometimes, yeah, news is worse because like, like, usually when you're doing a documentary, like, people are into this, like they know what they're doing. That's true. They want to share their story.

There's like an advocacy part of it usually that they're trying to, but it's like news things like, yeah, trying to get people to. But then it happens. Actually, I take it back. We had a horrible interview with somebody recently and that's not going to make that's not going to make the cut because it was pulling teeth. It was awful. So never mind. It does happen. It happens.

It happens to go down. then. Well, I'm glad that we got to talk. And I hope the rest of your press tour does, does well and isn't too intimidating. Thank you. And I hope you don't stress yourself out about contouring. Yeah, I think I'm not going to do it. I think it's just we're just going to worry about it. I'm not going to worry about it. It's going to be what they can make what they want. Yeah. Well, thank you for coming on. I've loved our conversation. everyone used to go read this one. Thank you so much. It was really fun talking to you.