Bookwild - Jessica Payne: Make Me Disappear

Episode Date: May 18, 2022

On this episode, I talk to Jessica Payne about her fast paced psychological thriller Make Me Disappear.You can also watch the episode on YouTubeAuthor LinksInstagramGoodreadsWebsiteCheck out the book hereMake Me Disappear SynopsisDr Daniel Ashcroft was perfect: handsome, romantic, protective. I thought I was so lucky. But then I heard the rumors about his previous girlfriend, that she had vanished without a trace.  That’s when I found the cameras in my apartment. I was trapped. Daniel made it clear I couldn’t leave him, not without risking everyone I loved. I had to disappear, so I arranged my own kidnapping. I should have known Daniel would never let me get away that easily. But he could never have predicted what I’d do next… Make Me Disappear is a brilliantly twisty psychological thriller guaranteed to keep you up all night. Fans of The Wife Between Us, Gone Girl and The Couple Next Door will find it impossible to put down. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Hi, my name is Kate and I love to read. Like, I was carrying books around with me before Kindles were a thing. So I decided to start a podcast where I interview the authors of some of my favorite books, ask them all of my questions so that I can read between the lines of the books. Welcome back to another episode of Between the Lines. I'm here with Jessica Payne, who's the author of Make Me Disappear, which was a really, fast-paced psychological thriller that I could not put down. So welcome to the podcast, Jessica. Well, thank you. And thank you for your compliments about my book. Oh, yeah. It was, it really was hard to put down. Like every chapter felt like it was kind of a cliffhanger. And those are always the ones that are the

hardest to put down. That is the goal. Yeah, yeah. Before we get into the book, though, I did want to get to know a little bit about you. So when did you know that you wanted to become an author or when did you know, like, I have a story that I need to write? Yeah, well, I've always written, as I think almost all writers say, you know, we all had our notebook in grade school. So I've always kind of done that and I always wanted to be an author, but it sounds really intimidating. You know, you see authors and you're like, oh, they're so cool. And it just, it's kind of one of those things that, like, people do it, but how do they do it? It's a long process.

It's not just writing the book, but if you're at least be traditionally published, then you, you know, you have to get an agent and get a book deal and all of that. And I kind of didn't even know where to start. But I knew someday I wanted to do it. And in my 20s, I had kind of started to write a couple books. and I always got, I don't know, 20,000 words in, and realized I had a fun character and absolutely no plot. I just felt like I had no idea what I was doing.

But I had my daughter in my mid-30s and kind of got to this point where I was like, listen, if I'm going to do this, if I'm going to like try to live my dream and actually be an author and write a book and maybe even get it published someday, then I need to start getting working on it. So, yeah, I decided to do that. and I had some great encouragement from a friend, and I did nanorimeo in 2018, and just never

stopped writing. That is a really cool story. I have my sister-in-law actually did the nano-reimo. Did I pronounce that correct? You did. So that's really cool that kind of something like that was able to get you there. Yeah. What is your writing process like?

Yeah. What is your writing process like? So do you have like a whole story come to you? Do you have the beginning come to you and you just kind of finish it? Like, how do you write? So my answer has probably changed on this particular topic over time because I used to get what I would call like a glimmer of an idea. And I would, it might be a character.

It was usually like a character in a situation doing a thing. And I didn't necessarily know exactly who they were or exactly like what their goal was. But I just had a sense of who they were and what they wanted from life. But as I've written more books. I now typically, it's funny because I really write character-driven books and I think character comes first. I'm a firm believer in that, but I've started getting more like plot ideas or an interesting hook and, okay, well, you know, what kind of character would that work well with? And then figuring out who that character has to be to make the hook, you know, really grab the reader. So it's constantly changing and maybe it's just going to be different with every book.

I'm not quite sure yet. So maybe that's a non-answer. But I do develop a character at the beginning and go from there. I'm very much a pancer. I never have my whole plot written out. I never outline. I've started trying to understand a few moments throughout the book. Like I like to know kind of what the midpoint's going to look like.

I like to have an idea of what the end is going to be, although it often changes because I like to be kept on my toes too. Yeah. But yeah, constantly changing, I guess would be my answer. That makes sense because I, like, I feel like anything where you're creating something, you're changing the whole time too and probably trying different things out. So I've actually kind of wondered about that because there are a couple authors that I've interviewed that have a book coming out later this year.

And I've been thinking about like in asking, them questions, just like even asking if anything has changed, because it seems like it would if you were just kind of constantly doing something. Yeah, as you develop as a writer. Yeah. Right. So you kind of talked about how like the characters are even sometimes, it sounds like what comes to you first. How do you get to know them? Do you just start writing them or like how does that get all fleshed out for you? I'm going to give you a mixed answer again. Okay. So I, I usually have a vague idea of who they are. And I am a huge fan of the book Story Genius by, I think it's Lisa Crone.

But what I found is I can't just go through, which her process is great. And really, you can be a pancer and still do Story Genius. So if someone out there is listening, I recommend trying it. I have found that I can't just go through her process. I have to sit down and write 10,000 words with this character first so that I kind of know who they are. And then once I know who they are, I really like to go through the story genius process. And that her process allows you to better understand who they are, where they're coming from, what they want, and based on what they want, what they would be likely to do, like what their

actions would be, what situation they'd be in, how they'd respond to that situation, which for me, at least, allows me to more organically write my characters. That makes a lot of sense. Ashley, Winstead actually mentioned that book as well and how much it helps her with characters too. Yeah. Lots of people use it. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. How would you describe Make Me Disappear in a couple sentences? Okay. So, Make Me Disappear is a psychological thriller. It's out May 16th. It is about a woman on the edge who is desperate to escape her sociopath boyfriend. And she realizes that there is basically no escape. He really has her trapped. So she decides that the only way to escape him is to arrange for her own kidnapping. But nothing goes as planned. And she quickly comes to

the realization that she is still within his grasp. And she realizes there's really no way to get away. The only way to be free is to beat him at his own game. And you'll have to read the rest to find out what happens from there. Yeah. We don't want to know anymore. what prompted you to write it like what inspired you to write this one oh well this is kind of a long answer i guess a lot of a lot of different things prompted me to want to write this book i don't think i meant to write the exact book i did i knew i wanted to write a book about a woman who was desperate to escape her sociopath boyfriend i knew i wanted it to be dual point of view so half of the book is from her perspective and half of it is from his i knew that you i knew that you

that I wanted him to be one of those characters like Dexter or Joe Goldberg were like, you know that you should strongly dislike them, but you kind of love them, even though they're totally messed up. So I like, I knew all these things I wanted it to be, but I wasn't exactly sure, like, how it was going to end up. I think I just knew that I had this character and that she needed to get away from a boyfriend and that she was going to arrange for her own kidnapping. And from there, it was like, well, how does one arrange for their own kidnapping? Well, apparently you can pay someone to kidnap you. It's called extreme kidnapping.

It's an actual sport. Crazy. Truly, like in real life, pay for. So I kind of knew that. And I think there was a part of me, you know, I was in a bad relationship in my 20s. And I wanted to show it doesn't necessarily start out bad. Like in my book, everybody thinks Daniel, the boyfriend, that he's this great guy. He's this like rich, handsome doctor.

Everybody loves him. Everybody thinks he's like just a great person. And they just think, Noel, the female character, like, has her life set. But they do not know what happens behind closed doors. And I think that that is so true. Like, I think it happens all the time. It certainly happened for me. Like, everybody thought this person I was dating was just fantastic.

When we broke up, they're like, what? You know, they were just shocked. And it was like, and at the time, like, you know, I was 25. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't even know what to say to them. But the reality was things were awful behind closed doors. And I think that as women, we often don't realize we're in that situation until we're in it. And whenever everybody else loves them, it's hard to see that. And I think, I think, when you are, when you feel trapped in a relationship, It's hard for people to understand that on the outside, and I wanted to show how that could happen,

but also how someone could then, you know, beat that person at their own game and, you know, not subtle for it. And even though, like, it was really hard, like, try to get away and the other things in the book, that would be spoilers. Yes. So, yeah, I wanted to write that book, and I think I needed to. Yeah. It sounds really therapeutic, and it sounds like it had a lot.

lot of you in it kind of than if it was somewhat from your experience that is the hardest thing with narcissists and sociopaths either is nobody else sees it like they are great to everybody else in most situations yeah totally yeah you typically end up with people like I never would have guessed and you're like yeah I mean neither and then yeah no totally you know there is like definitely like a lot of I was talking to someone about the old writing out of it, write what you know. And I used to roll my eyes at this. For me, writing what you know means, right, the emotion that you have felt before in a situation and maybe you magnify it to make it work in a psychological thriller. So to be clear, this is not autobiographical. I've had a few

people ask that. Just some of that emotion and a similar situation, although not nearly as extreme. And also, I know that for most people, that it's not this, not that what happens in this book is easy. But, you know, that type of relationship's really hard. As far as narcissists, yeah, you know, they're so hard to identify. They, you know, many of them, I would say. They're not going to figure it out on their own. They're not going to assume that there's something to look at. So I think that's a big reason they also don't end up getting diagnosed.

know Stephen sometimes. Yeah, well, something that was really interesting in writing this book is that I wanted to create a character where, you know, every person believes in, and there's a reason for the things that they do. And I wanted Daniel, this narcissistic sociopathic person to, like, I wanted the reader to be able to understand why he thought what he was doing was okay, even though it's obviously not. So trying to delve deep into that for him. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I do want to talk about all of that. So we will transition into the spoiler section here. Great. What that means is if you haven't read the book already, just pause and then you can come back. But if you're listening because you've already read, then you can keep on listening. So we have kind of talked about how there was that Noel's plan to get away from him was to do this kind of faking her own kidnapping. And then that goes wrong and she actually ends up being actually kidnapped. But in any like first drafts were you ever going to just have it that she faked her kidnapping and then just have it be about that? So actually, that was my original plan. But then I got to the part where she stuffed in a trunk and she sees the gun.

And I was like, oh my gosh, the gun is real. Like when I'm writing, I see what's happening. Like I see it like it's a movie in my head and I was like, oh my gosh, the gun is real. And so it's always been that way, but that was not like what I thought was going to happen. And that's what I love about being a panzer. Like I never would have come up with that if I had just, nothing against Outliners. I think Outliners do an incredible job. And man, revising sure is easier for them, I think.

But for me, it works really well. And that was such a cool twist to think of and just be like, oh, how is this going to work now? What does that mean? Like, who would actually really want her kidnapped? Oh, my goodness. And yeah, it was really fun to write. that's cool I feel like if I was going to write I would have to like plan it all out and so then when people talk about like writing and just like discovering it as they write I'm always like jealous I'm like that sounds like it makes it even more fun it does for me for some people I think it would be really stressful so you just got to do what works for you it's different yep so did you do any research to kind of make Daniel's narcissistic personality

really so realistic? Well, I feel like my life has kind of been research in a way. I have a degree in psychology. Yeah. Well, I have a degree in psychology, and I'm also a registered nurse, and I have, you know, been around a lot of personalities doing that. I did grow up with some people who, looking back, I think, were pretty narcissistic. And then, you know, working in healthcare has been a really interesting experience.

you meet a lot of different people. So I feel like kind of that gave me something to work with to start with. And then on top of that, I really find the way people's minds work and personalities to be a really interesting topic. So I've read a handful of nonfiction books and I've listened to quite a few podcasts from people who actually know what they're talking about, not just like random people talking about, you know, mental health. So I kind of came into it with that background. And then from there, I just really wanted, I wanted readers to like him, even though they hated him. Like, that was my goal.

I really wanted, like, a Dexter or Joe Goldberg type character. Like, I just love characters like that, you know, the ones where, I don't even know if morally gray is quite the right way to say it, because they're awful people, you know. Right. But we kind of love them. Yes. And you see the newest season of Dexter? I have not seen it. Have you?

I won't say anything then. Yes, you should watch it. It's so good. It was like I wanted it to go on forever, but they ended it in such a perfect way. So it felt like the best to redo. Are they doing another season after this or was that it? No, it's just one. Oh, bummer.

Okay, well, I will watch it. I saw it was out and I was excited to watch it. I just haven't quite done it. it's real they really explore that whole like we like him but he is actually bad right they like explore that more than i feel like they ever explored it previously because it was kind of just all about the like fun of kind of liking him and the other season so it had a really cool ending great um i'll add it to my list so one of the things that makes it so hard sometimes uh for other people to see what like the abuse that's going on in a relationship is that it's not physical

sometimes and so it's you're not ever going to really visibly see it especially if you're dealing with a narcissist who wants to look really really good in public which most of them do um but at one point noel's kind of reflecting on her fear of daniel and she realizes that his threats don't have to be spoken out loud she says i hear them loud and clear regardless and then later, she compares them to her ex and is thinking, Daniel might not strike me hard enough to knock me out like Michael did, but what he's doing to me isn't any better. So did you give Daniel some of the more like covertly, uh, the kind of the covert abuse that's like harder to prove so that it would be harder for her to prove and make it harder for her to leave as well.

I really saw that as an expression of the way I think many abusive relationships are or a step in their evolution. I think that it can be very difficult to realize that you are in a bad relationship because it's easy to say, oh, well, they've never hit me or, you know, they don't leave bruises or, you know, but the reality is like, it can literally be as simple as the way someone talks to you. The things they say, the things they don't say, the way they make you feel and they're doing it on purpose, you know? Yeah. And it can be the gaslighting. Abuse can be things outside of being physically hit and pushed around. And I think that people don't realize that. And I think that often in relationships that that type of abuse creeps up on you because you don't even realize it's happening until one day you wake up.

up and you're just like, wait a second. Like, the way I feel about this relationship is not so good, but it was good. You know, often those relationships start out, you know, quote unquote, normal. Love bombing and all the good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great point. So Jack initially, well, he actually wasn't like the first part to kidnap, but Jack is a part of the initial kidnapping of her.

But afterward, like the initial kidnapping, he's actually really kind of. to her. And so she was actually able to kind of feel safe and trust him, even though he's kind of a dangerous guy in terms of what he's doing. But she's trusting him more than she probably ever trusted Daniel almost. So we're using the kind of contrast between Jack and Daniel to really display how bad life with Daniel was if she could feel safe and happier with Jack, who actually kidnapped her. You know, I didn't think about it that way at a time. I do think it does display that.

With Jack, I really wanted to show that, you know, you can't judge a book by its cover. He's a rough, rough-looking guy. He's someone who you would expect to be potentially dangerous, but he actually has a really big heart. He actually is there for a very good reason. You know, he's trying to find out what happened to his sister. And I wanted to just make him feel real and well-rounded and that he was there for a reason, not just because, you know, he's one more character. And I also, I kind of wanted to give Noelle hope, you know. And I felt like giving her Jack as well as her friend Carrie did that.

Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. You talked about wanting to make Daniel accessible, kind of just in the sense of. of wanting people to be able to kind of like him. And so it does humanize him a little bit in his chapters to hear in his thought process how ultimately important his mom's approval is for him

and how just about every decision he's been making in his life has been hoping that his mom is going to approve. And was, were you kind of including that part to depict like how out of control and bad things can get when we're so focused on someone else's approval? Well, they definitely can be. I think you can really lose sight of yourself in situations like that. So the thing with Daniel is if you're going to have a bad guy,

you have to know why that bad guy is a bad guy. And not that it's an excuse for his behavior. He's an adult. No. You know, like at some point you're an independent person responsible for your own actions. But I wanted people to like, you know, going with the, you know, the likable person you, the person you love to hate, the person you hate to love, I really wanted people to be pulled in by him. And even though they didn't like him, able to understand him. And I think that there are people in our lives who we feel really obligated to.

for him and his mother, like, obviously it's a bit obsessive and definitely unhealthy, but, but I do think people have relationships like that. And I think it's something that can really negatively impact us in our decisions. Yeah, I completely agree. So from that relationship, we then find out that Eve is the one, his mother, is the one behind everything, which was crazy. did you know at the beginning that she was going to be the one behind everything or is that one of the things you figured out along the way? I definitely figured that out along the way. I wasn't sure. I'm really sure who the villain will be, like the ultimate villain will be by the end when I start writing it. And then it's really fun to see which characters kind of speak to you and which ones

maybe seem great, but are sneakily not so great. So that was really fun to explore. early on I had actually considered Carrie, but I felt like she was too obvious of a choice. So I was like, well, who else would have motive to like really do this? And how can I make it twist and turn? And yeah, something about her character just got me. I was like, she's got to be the one. Yeah. It definitely fit once we knew about it. Yeah. And then at the end, Noel does go visit Daniel in jail and he does ask about his mom and if she knows how she's doing and she says she doesn't know um so how do you think he's feeling at the end now that he knows kind of how many years she's been like damaging parts of his life and do you think he's still kind of secretly hoping that

he has her approval still you mean has his mother's approval yes sorry There were a couple different shoes there. No worries. I just want to make sure. Yeah. I think, so when I first read this question, I interpreted it. Like, how does he feel around Noel with that? Oh, yeah.

And I thought that was actually a really interesting question, too. And I answer that one, too. Yeah. I think he feels really naked and exposed, you know. He, I love that saying near the end. Am I supposed to say I love my own scenes? I don't know, but I felt like it went really well. Okay.

There's a scene where he... If I wrote a book, I'd be thrilled to say that. Yeah. Well, I love the scene where he slowly comes to the realization. And I think he even says something like, am I like the man I think I am? Because he slowly realizes that every success he's ever had in his life is something his mother's set up.

And it just strips him away one thing at a time, kind of like the way Noel took everything away from him, how he took everything away from her. And I really wanted him to be like stripped bare and like exposed and I feel like that is how he feels like rock bottom

especially for someone like that who like thinks he's you know this rich handsome charming person who everybody loves and respects and who's actually very controlling and mean in a lot of ways as far as his mother like yeah

I absolutely think that he would still I mean isn't that how it works for most people Like we can think that we're independent. Yeah. Yeah, we can move out. But there's some part of us that for most people, not everyone, most people who still wants that approval, especially if, you know, that's that person in your life who you consider like the backbone of your life, you know, your mother.

Yeah. So, yeah, I would, I also think he'd be a little bit devastated that he got low enough to, you know, try to harm her. Right. You know, I'll bet he'd feel. I did wonder about that too. A lot of guilt around that. I don't know.

Hopefully he's in therapy, wherever he is in jail. Yes. Working out his mommy issues. Yeah. That's the main thing that we want to be happening. So where can people find you and follow you so they can keep up to date with your new releases? Just kind of plug everything. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I actually have another book coming out in September. So keep an eye out for that. I don't know. Yeah, I don't have an official title yet. right now we're tentatively calling it too close for comfort. But you can find me on jessica pain.net. I have all of my social media links there.

I have a buy link for the book. I will also be doing a, there's a local book store. You'll be able to order physical copies through. On Instagram, I'm jessicapane.rider. And on Instagram, I am at author jesspane. But jesscapane.net is the quickest, easiest way to find all of that information. Okay.

And I'll put all of those links in the show notes actually to you. So everyone can just get to it that way. And hopefully they can read the next one coming out in September, whatever. Yeah. I know. I wish I had a title. Yeah. I bet that is that like, how long does that process normally take?

You know, it just depends. This book got bumped up. It was actually supposed to come out a little bit later in the year, but there was an open slot. going a little early. I always have a tentative title, so make me disappear was my title that I had, so I was really excited we got to stick with it. My publisher does such an incredible job of looking at it as a whole. And I know some people are very, you know, they want to keep their title, and I totally understand that. But you also want your book to sell so that you can keep writing more books with your publisher. So my publisher does a great job of kind of looking at my title, but also similar.

ones or other ones that their marketing team comes up with and looking to see which one is best received by readers and which one best fits the book. So they've just been fantastic to work with and they will consider multiple titles to lead to the best outcome to help you with your writing career, which I think is a wonderful thing. Yeah, that makes the most sense. Like you don't want to be married to something that could be like negatively impacting how many people buy it. Yeah, yeah, you know, titles have trends just like everything else. And you want to get something that is going to attract the reader who is looking for that book. Right.

That's a really good way to put it. Well, when that one does come out, hopefully everyone goes and reads that one too. Thank you. And otherwise, thank you for talking with me about you, about to make me disappear. Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. This has been really fun.