Bookwild - Jessica Payne: The Lucky One

Episode Date: September 16, 2022

On this episode, I talk to Jessica Payne about her action packed, twisty serial killer thriller The Lucky One.You can also watch the episode on YouTubeAuthor LinksInstagramGoodreadsCheck out the book hereThe podcast that inspired the bookThe Lucky One SynopsisTen years ago, I survived a serial killer. They called me the lucky one, but they don’t know the truth I’ve been hiding ever since…Then: We danced together that night, our dresses glittering in the swirling lights. We couldn’t have known that for one of us, it would be our last night alive.Now: Back in my hometown a decade later—the place I’ve avoided because of the memories—I can’t shake the feeling that I am being followed. I tell myself it’s all in my head, but the prickle on the back of my neck feels like a warning. Then the anonymous messages land in my inbox: I’m watching. I’ve been waiting for you.I want to feel safe, surrounded by my closest friends. But everyone has something to hide and it’s impossible to know who I can trust.When my friend Esme goes missing, her phone ringing through to voicemail, it feels like the past is about to repeat itself.Someone won’t let me forget what really happened that night. What I promised. How I escaped. If the truth comes out, I only hope they can forgive me... I can’t make the same mistake again. I have to keep us all safe. What if, this time, I’m not so lucky?An addictive, nail-biting psychological thriller, The Lucky One will have you sleeping with the light on. Fans of Stillhouse Lake, The Girl on the Train and Gillian Flynn will be totally hooked! Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Hi, my name is Kate and I love to read. Like, I was carrying books around with me before Kindles were a thing. So I decided to start a podcast where I interview the authors of some of my favorite books, ask them all of my questions so that I can read between the lines of the books. Back to another episode of Between the Lines and today I'm here again with Jessica Payne to talk about her second book, The Lucky One. So welcome back to the podcast. Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here again. Yeah, this was such a fun one. I've been telling everyone to read it. Awesome. Thank you. Before we get into any of the spoilers or talking about the book directly, I did want to talk about some other stuff. So what is the biggest change you've noticed in your life

since publishing your first and almost second book now? The biggest change. Well, it's kind of cool getting to say that I'm a published author because for a long time it's like, oh yeah, I just signed with an agent or I have a book coming out or, you know, that kind of thing. It felt very vague and I'm like, yeah, I have a book out. And I have another one coming out and you can be a little more specific. So that's been really cool.

But then just day to day life has been, I think that, I spend quite a bit of time doing writing related things that are not actually writing. So, you know, marketing my book or social media or, you know, there's always a couple different projects going at once now, which did not used to be the case. So it just feels a little busier and a little more hectic, but I also really like it. So it's okay. Yeah. That's awesome. That's really cool. I bet it is just like, it's one of those things where sometimes like everyone's like, oh, I am an author and then like when you can finally say like I'm a published author you're like I'm for real yeah for sure totally it's just it's it's validating to myself and I know some people don't need

that validation but it's been really cool yeah oh yeah I would I that people who don't need it is one thing but I feel like we all like to have it yeah did so with this one did you approach your writing process any differently than the first book Yes, so Make Me Disappear. My first book was a book that I had been thinking about for quite some time. I'd had those characters in my head. I had like a vague idea of what it was going to look like, and it kind of just lived in me for a while before I wrote it. Whereas with The Lucky One, it was definitely a different process. I get book ideas from anywhere and everywhere. And with this book, it came, this may be one of your other questions. So sorry if I'm getting there. That's okay. The inspiration for the lucky one actually came from a true crime podcast. And it is very, very vaguely based off of a true story.

I heard this incredible podcast about a woman who tricked her would-be serial killer into letting her go. And that person, like the idea of that person, really stuck with me because I felt like that was such an amazing thing for that woman to be able to, think through everything in that moment and like do that. I mean, she, over the course of a night, like, weaved a tale that he slowly bought into and believed that she cared about him and that she loved him, but that she had to go home and take care of her alien father. Like, this actually happened, and then he let her go out. Like, it's a miracle.

So I really wondered, who would that person become? because whatever trajectory your life was on before that moment, it's almost certainly going to change dramatically. So I tried to picture who that person would be, and that was really the inspiration for the lucky one, and it turned into a character named Nora Silverton,

and I was like, well, I would have to imagine that she would want to make sure she could never be a victim again. So, you know, the writing process for this, because it was based around a true crime story and a serial killer story was a lot of research on serial killers and how they act and how they think and because that all went into this book. Yeah. So yeah, I was just more of a research-based one than just like a feeling or a vibe

or feeling like the story was already inside me. Yeah. There were a lot of details to cover in this one too. So it makes sense to me that you researched it a little bit more. Yeah. What was your favorite part about writing it? My favorite part about writing the lucky one. I loved, okay, so I'm guessing a lot of people listening might read a lot of thrillers.

And one thing that seems to be true almost across the board is that women and thrillers are vulnerable in some way, which is understandable. Like, otherwise there's probably not going to be a book, right? That's kind of the premise. Right. But the cool thing about this book is that though Nora is in a vulnerable position, she is a total badass. And she is super strong and she is like not afraid to face down someone. And it was so fun. So my first book, Make Me Dispere, had Noel, who was a strong woman, but strong in different ways.

And also, you know, trying to escape this narcissist boyfriend. So with the lucky one with Nora getting to have a strong character from the beginning, it was just a really fun transition. I feel like I needed to write a stronger woman. And I've gotten a lot of feedback from early readers that that is something they have really loved about this book, is that she's a badass. And it's nice to have that as a change of pace in the thriller genre. Yes.

I completely agree with all of that. I've noticed in quite a few of the thrillers I've read this year that that theme is coming through more is like leaning into like a truly empowered woman and and even just like allowing allowing just because like maybe culturally it hasn't always been that way like allowing women to have like violent feelings about certain moments that deserve it basically. So the last housewife from Ashley Winstead was a lot like that. Oh, interesting. I haven't read it. It's on my list. Yeah, yeah. It's another one where it really is about like a woman like conquering the stuff that happened to her and like a good exploration of like female rage.

And then I read Kismit by Amina Oktar here recently as well. And same thing. Like there seems to be this really cool theme this year. because I've been reading thrillers for a while too. Yeah. But, like, more this year, I had, like, three books in a row where it was, like, just really powerful female characters. And it is, like, it's cool because all of them actually have kind of the through line

that, like, something did happen to them in their past. So, like, there was a time where they were vulnerable. And then kind of what you're saying, but, like, they handled it in a certain way so that, like, now as adults, they're ready to face it. I do think that's really cool seeing that. That's fantastic. I'm really glad to hear that there are other books that are doing the same thing. Yeah, like they're very much their own, very different stories too.

But I've really loved like the like empowering arc, but not in like a, it's not in your like traditionally feminist way. It's just like actually empowered. It's kind of how I feel about it. Yeah. And since we're talking about how much of a badass, she is, she runs a lot and she's training for MMA a lot. Um, so I know you run a lot. So like every time I was reading it, I was thinking of you doing that too. But did you know anything about MMA or was that something you researched too? Um, a little bit of both. I grew up doing several martial arts off and on through my teenage years.

And then to my 20s, I did um, Okinawan Kenpo and I did a martial art called Kukeselan, which is not as common. And I also did some taekwondo and I even taught a little. And I've always really loved physical activities, like different sports and martial arts was just incredible. As a young woman who didn't always feel strong, it allowed me to feel more comfortable in my own skin and empowered. I have a four-year-old daughter, and I will be signing her up for martial arts, even if it's something she's never super into. I think it helps anyone, especially women, be aware of their surroundings. and also have confidence in themselves and just the ability to speak up for themselves and defend themselves.

So, yeah, I used some of the knowledge I already had. The cool thing about MMA or mixed martial arts is that it's actually a combination of a lot of different martial arts. However, I've never actually done MMA. I've done a couple like classes, like starter classes just to look into it. So it did require some research. And the other thing is, you know, nor as a professional. So some of it was just understanding how a professional athlete's life might look.

Yeah. So that was really fun to look into. It was fun to look up a lot of female MMA fighters and, like, follow them on Twitter and just kind of understand how their lives worked a little bit. Yeah. There were some cool details, like the, how she was like always having a post for her sponsors. Yeah. throughout it. That is probably so true for most people in that position.

Yep. So we kind of talked about a little bit about what the book is, but what is like your pitch of it in a couple sentences? Let's see. An elevator pitch. MMA martial artist Nora Silverton tricked her would-be serial killer into letting her go 10 years ago. A decade has passed and she finds out that her estranged father has passed away. So she has to go home for the first time in a decade and deal with his death. But upon arriving, one of her friends is violently murdered in the same way that serial killer would kill women. Like the same trademark things are left. And she realizes that she has not left him in her past and that in fact he has probably,

have been close to her this entire time. That's a good summary. That doesn't get someone interested. I don't know what would. It has like everything. So we are going to talk about the book in more detail now. So if you haven't read it, go read it, and then come listen again. Please do.

And if you get the paperback copy and you're in the U.S., let me know and I'll send you a bookplate to your home assigned book. Oh, yeah. So a large part of Nora's personality, and you kind of touched on that, is shaped by how helpless she felt during her experience with Hansel, the serial killer, as a teenager. So she really learned how to defend herself, and even to the point of making a career out of it, and at one point she does think to herself, I'll never be anyone's victim again. So how did you approach weaving Nora's teenage trauma into her adult self? Well, not half the book.

Maybe a quarter of the book is made up of flashback scenes of what happened that night when she leaves prom with her friend, when their car stops working on the side of the road, when someone yanks the door open and pulls them from the car and drags them into the woods. So yeah, it was a really dramatic event. And I really tried to focus on how that would shape, having gone through something like that, how that would shape her decisions now, you know, if something like that has happened to you, how do you see the world? So the biggest part was trying to view the world that way,

but then also view it through the lens of, but she's also become a total badass. mixed martial artist. Like her goal was to become the most dangerous woman in the world. And she's kind of done that. Yeah. So I think it really affects everything she does. You know, it affects the way she interacts with people. If she lets herself get close to people, if she is suspicious of them, which she is, like anything traumatic that someone experiences, I mean, it's just interwoven into everything. Does that answer your question? I'm not sure. It does. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I almost mentioned earlier that there are, flashback because that's sometimes like I do love that and like alternating timelines is a fun

thing to read so I actually almost mentioned that earlier in case that's like a subgenre or whatever you want to call it that people really enjoy so yes I yeah that did answer my question cool um so she initially arrives in town after her dad dies and at one like uncomfortable point she's thinking I want to run I want to escape and avoid this homecoming and all the messy motions altogether, but I can't, I don't run anymore. So we kind of talked about already the cool empowering arc that kind of does follow this book, but did you know at the beginning that you wanted like a large part of her story to be her getting a chance to face her biggest fears? Yes, absolutely. That was one of the first things I knew about this book was that by the end she was going to have to

face like her own demons inside of her, but also that she was going to have to face the serial killer or the, you know, the person that ends up being the serial killer and basically have a chance to revisit that and challenge it and hopefully not fail. Right. But yeah, I mean, that was a big part of it. I knew that eventually that had to happen for this book to work. So building her up to that and building the plot. up to that was a main focus.

Yeah. Yeah. I figured it was because it was like a very strong part of the story. So there are also like tons of red herrings and tons of twists. How did you keep track of all of the plot that was going on? It never felt like something new wasn't happening. Oh, thank you. That is something.

it's sort of the it's a thing that like just slowly builds I am very much a pancer I did go back after I finished the raft and kind of plotted out the plot beats

so I could kind of see what was happening so a lot of it was just in my head like I knew what needed to happen and then what had to happen after that and so on and so forth but some of it also happened in revisions I'm a big...

I write fast and I pants and then I spend a lot of time revising but that's just my process and I've come to accept it. Yeah. One of my favorite things to do and I try to do this. Now I try to do this before I start the book

but I often will redo it after because it changes so much. I get a big piece of like butcher paper is what people call it. But I... It's like kids craft paper really and I draw a big line across and I put the plot beats like the beginning scene, the inner debate, the catalyst, break into two, B story, midpoint, etc.

And then I put what is happening throughout, and that really helps me kind of see it from, like a, what's the word, like an eagle eye perspective? Birds eye view. Yeah, like birds live view, see it kind of all in one place. Or yeah, or the 10,000 foot view. Yeah. And then I'll go through and I'll take little strips of paper with like the big things that happen, like the red herrings or the twist or the turn.

and I'll put it on there and it's fun because then I can rearrange it if I want to. And I write a program called Scribner. So I can also just rearrange it in Scribner to some extent as long as the plot still makes sense. Sometimes I also just make a list. But while I'm writing, it's just kind of what's the worst thing that could happen to her right now? That's funny because you're not, it's probably not the only person who's thought that with thrillers. The main question you could ask yourself is, what is the least? worst thing that could happen. And sometimes you have to scale it back because you're like,

that is the worst thing that could happen and I'll save that for later. Right. I love that that you like physically move it around though. Like that makes sense, especially if you are a pancer, it probably helps to see it that way and then just be able to move it around however you want to. Totally. I have many friends who use the note card program in Scribner. And I love Scribner, but I can't do it. I stand it on the screen doesn't do it for me. I want to be able to like hold it up and move it around. That's what it's for me. That totally makes sense. So Nora felt slash feels deserted by both her mother and her father. So her mother literally left and her dad's alcoholism pretty much made him not present. So do you feel like the betrayal from both of her parents

is part of what made her like capable, well, her parents and then the Hansel experience made her so capable of questioning everyone in her life as the possible culprit. Yeah, well, it definitely would affect her ability to trust people, you know? And it is hard because at least one of those people is someone who's been in her life a long time. But when you lay the right groundwork, you really can make anyone look guilty. which was like great um but yeah i mean it norah is a character who is heavily influenced by her past and not all of my characters

are so heavily influenced but but she really was and you know a big part of her storyline was her basically facing her past so yeah you know what happened with her mother and father definitely played into it yeah so there's also like a little bit of a focus on how the cops in the media kept wanting to say that Nora used her womanly wiles to escape Hansel that night. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but were you trying to spotlight anything specific about how we perceive women versus men in a situation like that? I sure was. I absolutely was. I was like, I think so.

Yeah, I will say, I fully acknowledge this does not apply to every case out there. I fully acknowledge that hopefully things are changing. things never change fast enough though but yeah especially if you look through true crime historically women have always been victim blamed or you know well if you hadn't worn a skirt that short maybe they wouldn't have done that thing you know that kind of BS so yeah I was trying to point that out I also you know have listened to so many true crime podcasts and read so many books on it and again hopefully things have changed I'm not trying to necessarily point the finger at anyone in specific, but often when someone disappears, it's, well, they'll show back up.

And I can't tell you how many cases I've heard of where that person doesn't show back up, where maybe if they had treated it like the crime it was from the first moment, they went missing. Maybe they would have found that person. Maybe not, but we'll never know. Yeah. Yeah. I also wanted to, and I mentioned this in the back of the book, but I also wanted to talk a little bit about true crime used as entertainment. I listen to True Crime Podcasts.

I know a lot of people do. So, I mean, I'm looking at me here too. But I think that one thing we need to remember that these are real people, you know, this happened to someone, someone with a family and a life, and passions. Like, this actually happened to someone. And I tried to use Nora's character as someone who was like, this isn't entertainment.

This is actually my life. So I tried to talk about that while also acknowledging I wrote a book based off of a true crime. Right. Not based off of it, but like loosely inspired. Yeah, that's that hard line to figure out. Because, like, what you're writing is fiction. So it actually,

isn't like directly affecting anyone. But it is tricky. I think I don't listen to as much of it because, and I think for me, it's because I'm like, if I'm reading a book, it's not real. And if I listen to something real, it's scarier, which doesn't necessarily prepare me for the world, but that's okay. Yeah, no, totally. I, you know, I will say one thing that I find pretty cool about the true crime world is

that they have solved some crimes. And I think it's crime junkies, that podcast, they have. saying and I'm probably going to quote it wrong. It's something like be weird, be rude, stay alive. It's something like that. And it's so true. And I was in a situation a couple weeks ago where I was like, I'm going to be rude because I'm not going to deal with this and I'm going to walk away because I feel uncomfortable. And afterwards, I was like, even if I was kind of rude, I think I did the right thing because I kept me and my daughter's safe as a result. And probably it was nothing, but I'm going to just assume it might have been something. Right, right.

Yeah, the other thing, I was just looking at the crime junkie stuff because I'm reading Ashley Flowers' novel right now. Oh, nice, yeah. Yeah, and she also created a foundation that does help victims of, like, unsolved violent crimes. So I thought that was really cool, too. Like, when you were mentioning, like, some things have been solved. And then also it's cool when people that are, like, already in that arena basically then use, like, the audience they have to be like, hey, let's like support people in this situation too.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I did have something highlighted because guy's character is like the embodiment of kind of what we're talking about. I did have a highlight about that, but clearly I didn't make a question out of it. You brought it up anyway. Yeah.

I was like, wait a second. Yeah, because she says something to him directly about him using it for entertainment, basically. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, he's trying to write a book about it, a book that's going to entertain people that's going to make him money. But it's the horror that happened to her. So, I know you're a pancer. Did you know it was going to be Owen the whole time? And then if you did know, did you know his motives or did those develop as you wrote it too? So I, when I started the book, I was not sure who it was going to be. But I hit the scene. I will tell you the scene. The scene where Esmey has. has just been murdered and it's they've left the police station and Nora and Janie are at the cafe and Owen knocks on the door and he comes in and somewhere in that scene I was like oh

oh my gosh you know who the killer needs to be so from from there on I knew it was going to be him which you know well it made writing the love story a little bit difficult for me I bet because I was like I was sold on it. I was so sorry. Sorry, not sorry. I mean, that was the goal, right? Right. It was the goal. I actually had one of my, um, my critique partners, Sarah Reed. Her book comes out in March. Um, she had to like, with a fine tooth comb go over those, any of their scenes together and like, help me get the emotions right because it was just hard to write. You know, it was really hard to write these love scenes, uh, when right, you do what's going to happen at the end. okay sorry what was your question oh okay um oh no you're answering it that that was what i was asking did i

always i did wonder what writing a sex scene would be like if you knew like he's gonna try to kill her later there's a reason that i kept that nice and short and sweet yeah yeah so yeah you know it got even creepier the chasing her around oh right yeah i love that part i'm sorry i was like oh i know it's no it's good it's a good creepy thank you you're welcome so yeah i um The motives kind of were established as I wrote it. And then at the end, I tried to think more deeply about it and bring it all full circle and have everything really connect and make sense. So to answer your questions, a little bit of everything. But yeah, you know, it was fun.

You know what it was fun to me? And I would say the people I've talked to about a quarter of them have guessed the ending and three quarters have not, which is, I think, a good percentage because of nobody's guessing it. Then you probably haven't laid the groundwork. clearly enough. But I really wanted people to get to the reveal and look back and be like, oh my God, like, one, how did sweet Owen do this? But also, how did I not see it? You know, because like the signs were kind of there. Yeah. So that was really cool. Like all grumpy, like right after Esme dies and you're like, oh, I guess I should have been paying attention. I can't like it's like anytime I try to think about writing a book I'm like I get my OCD is like I would have to know exactly what it would be like and then when people say that like they're writing a scene and they know how it's supposed to go I always think that sounds so like magical so that's cool to know how the scene's supposed to end or like when you're in the scene and that's when you're like I know what's going to happen like it's like coming to you not that you like had to play

it out like it seems so much more artistic and well i think i think for some people that inspiration comes as they're outlining ahead of time it's almost like yeah they're just writing a very bare bones version of it um so i i try to i would assume for them it's like that i don't know but yeah you know those moments are wonderful but i also know of people who outline and have to do far less revising and their story makes sense from the beginning. And then I'm like, oh, I'm a little jealous. But it's also, you know, but when that moment comes and you're like, oh, I know the perfect twist. It's such a good feeling. So I imagine they just feel that way when they're outlining instead of when they're actually writing. That's a good point. That's a good point. Like you are

still having to come up with it, whether you're figuring out as you go or before. Yeah. Well, we talked about it before, but where can people follow you? so they stay up to date with everything. I am, well, my website is jessicapane.net, p-a-y-n-e. I am on... There are those puppies. I am on Twitter at author, Jess Payne. And on Instagram, I am jessica-pane.

You can find my books anywhere. I would encourage you to order them from your local bookstore. You can also buy them from my local bookstore, and I will sign them for you. It's Browser's Bookshop, Olympia, I have links on my website for that or through any of my social media. Or you can just order my books anywhere else. Yeah. Awesome. I will put all of those links and thanks for talking with me again. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me back again. This is, this was really fun. I always

enjoy talking to you.