Bookwild - Katherine Greene's The Lake of Lost Girls: Mixed Media, Missing Girls and The 90s

Episode Date: November 5, 2024

This week I got to talk with writing duo Katherine Greene, made up of A. Meredith Walters and Claire C. Riley.  We dive into how they became friends and writing partners, the initial image that was the inspiration for this story, and how they approach writing thrillers together.The Lake of Lost Girls SynopsisIt's 1998, and female students are going missing at Southern State University in North Carolina. But freshman Jessica Fadley, once a bright and responsible student, is going through her own struggles. Just as her life seems to be careening dangerously out of control, she suddenly disappears.Twenty-four years later, Jessica's sister Lindsey is desperately searching for answers and uses the momentum of a new chart-topping true crime podcast, Ten Seconds to Vanish, that focuses on the cold cases, to guide her own investigation. Soon, interest reaches fever pitch when the bodies of the long-missing women begin turning up at a local lake, which leads Lindsey down a disturbing road of discovery.In the present, one sister seeks to untangle a complicated web of lies.In the past, the other descends ever deeper into a darkness that will lead to her ultimate fate.This propulsive and chilling suspense is a sharp examination of sisterhood and the culture of true crime.  Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I'm always really, really curious and like, people vanish all the time. Where did he go? What happens? And I had this image of this little girl at a window looking out and she sees a sister go to the car, and she opens the boot, and then the little girl looks away for a few seconds and looks back and she's gone. That's it. It's always something that's kind of played on my mind. Like, obviously, it's not even made up, but it's still played on my mind like 10 years later. I'm like, but where did she go?

This week I got to talk with the writing duo, Catherine Green. And we are talking about their second thriller, the Lake of Lost Girls, which is a really fun thriller that is in the mixed media format. It has podcasts. It has posts. It has newspaper articles to tell the story while also jumping back and forth between the present and 1998. If any of that sounds good, which I'm sure it does to most of you, you definitely want to pick this one up. Here's what it's about. It's 1998 and female students are going missing at Southern State University in North Carolina. But freshman Jessica Fadley, once a bright and responsible student, is going through her own struggles.

Just as her life seems to be careening dangerously out of control, she suddenly disappears. 24 years later, Jessica's sister Lindsay is desperately searching for answers and uses the momentum of a new chart-topping true crime podcast, 10 seconds to vanish, that focuses on the cold cases to guide her own investigation. Soon, interest reaches a fever pitch when the bodies of the long missing women begin turning up at a local lake, which leads Lindsay down a disturbing road of discovery. In the present, one sister seeks to untangle a complicated web of lies. In the past, the other descends ever deeper into a darkness that will lead to her ultimate fate. I can guarantee you are not going to guess the reveals that come at the end of this book. they are absolutely wild. It really felt like a reveal that I haven't read before. Actually, I take that

back. There's one book that it does remind me of, but if I told you the comp, it would ruin it. So take my word from it. If you enjoy thrillers that have mixed media approaches, sisters trying to figure out what happened to each other, then you want to pick this one up. That being said, let's hear from writing duo Catherine Green. Maybe. There we go. So I am super excited to talk with both of you about the Lake of Lost Girls. I'm here with writing duo Catherine Green, who is made up of...

We're going to get through this eventually. Okay. I just took my dogs on a walk and they were mowing. So, of course, my allergies are really bad, too. Okay. Which is made up of Meredith Walters and Claire Riley. So welcome to the podcast. Hi.

Hey. So before we dive into the book, I did want to get to know a little bit about you guys. So it sounds like you've written separately and together. So what were your guys' each of your moments when you were like, I want to write a book? and then what brought you together to start writing together? I hear you go ahead. You start us off. Well, we've been friends for, gosh, over 10 years now, isn't it?

10, 15 years, something like that, a really, really long time. And we both kind of wrote in completely different genres. And then it was, I think it was around lockdown time. And we both had kind of writers block, neither would kind of kind of. to get into the vibe. And we came up, I was like, let's just write something together just for us. We won't publish it. It'll just be for us just to kind of, you know, get that sort of passion back.

And we wrote this book together. Both loved it. And, yeah, the rest he says history, because we wrote another one after that, which obviously we did with Crooked Lane, the Woods are Waiting. And then obviously we wrote this one. And yeah, we're halfway through a third one. But I think it's funny because. we'd been friends online for a really, really long time,

and I actually met Abbey at a book signing for the very first time years and years ago, and one of my readers came up and they were like, you know, who would you love to write with? And I was like, oh, definitely, Meredith Walters. And we only kind of knew each other online at the time. So to be able to say kind of like 10, 15 years later that, you know, wrote these amazing books, I think they're amazing anyway, books together. Yeah, for me, anyway, it's like a dream.

and come true. And I absolutely adore her writing, always have done. And yeah, she's obviously one of my best friends as well. That's so cool. But actually the first book that we wrote together is not, it hasn't, we haven't done anything with that one yet. But yeah, because we both were in a writing group together, weren't we? Because I started writing, I had been writing forever.

But when I moved to the UK in 2012, I stopped work because I was a counselor. in the States. And so we moved over. I was kind of trying to get acclimated. And my daughter was starting school and everything. So I started writing. And it was right, gosh, it was almost right from the beginning that Claire and I were in a beta group where we read each other's stuff. And there was a group about authors.

And Claire and I just ended up jelling. I mean, it was pretty instantaneous. So, and like Claire said a signing. And it was just, we always like, oh, we should write something. you should write something. And then, like Claire said, it was like lockdown-ish. I was going, I was really struggling to write because I had been writing my own stuff for so long. And I used to write romance.

And that was kind of my thing. Think of it. You know, it was like, I just needed something different. And Claire was like the queen of like zombie, you know, post-apocalyptic and stuff like that. And I always thought her style was so cool. And I was like, yes, we need to write something if we're going to, you know, in a new, in a new genre and it just sort of came from that so yeah um yeah claire and i work really well together i mean she it's up with a lot of crap for me um yeah she she gets me and she i've always told

for her she's like family at this point like our families know each other our kids know each other it's um yeah she's kind of stuck with me so yeah that is such a cool story so did you become friends on social media but for the writing group or is the writing group what you became friends at? It was the writing. I don't know who invited me to it because in that writing group there was five of us and everyone but me because at the time I mean, I write romance now as well, but I didn't write any romance at that time.

So I don't actually know who invited me to it. I was like, I remember just looking around all the different people like, why am I here? I'm like, we were a part of. It was like some massive and it had like really big names in there. And then that kind of shut down. And then there were like a few that were like, well, let's have this small little intimate writer's group where we can like, you know, critique each other's stuff. And that's where that started.

Yeah. So that is so cool. And also that you guys have written so many genres. That is so impressive to me because I can't really like think outside of one genre. yeah it's a little funny when you think about it was there something that drew you to doing thrillers together well yeah I think for me because you've written some darker books and I'd obviously written darker books and I think you'd always wanted to do thrillers and I'd always wanted to do thrillers and it was kind of like when we had this we're both having this sort of existential crisis on like

neither of us could write. It was like, well, let's just do something completely different, a complete palat cleanser that both of us kind of what I go into. And yeah, and it just, I don't know. I think we're about three chapters in. And I remember saying to my husband, I was like, this is really special. Like, it works. And I've, I've co-written with a couple of people.

And sometimes I'm like, you know, it felt very, very forced. Whatever is writing with Abby, it was just really, really natural. we just really bounce off each other really, really well. And she'll be like, no, that's enough. No, don't go any darker. And I'd be like, no, you need to go darker. That's so cool, though. How did you, so it sounds like it was pretty natural,

but what is your writing process together like? So do you like take certain chapters? Do you have like meetings when you work on certain stuff? How did you build this book basically? Well, I mean, the idea for it was Claire's, because she had had an idea for this for Lake of Lost Scroll. Like when we talk about books, we usually have about three or three to five different concepts that were like, okay, let's kind of hash these out and see which ones we were kind of drawn to. And we had kind of gone back and forth with a couple of them. But this is the one we kept coming back to.

And it was one that Claire had brought up, gosh, I think it was actually years ago. You brought up this. It's been a while. and so we're like okay let's let's start on this and we always start with an outline like we do this we have like a video call where we rough things out and then Claire is like queen of details so she does this whole file where she does all the like character names and all the places and all that stuff so we don't get lost because I'm a complete pancer like I just will forget brown eyes and that you know things like that and this is actually

first time where I write for like in a chronological order because I tend to write it in first and then I kind of I'm all over the place writer so but yeah so and then we write in a Google doc and we each take a character and then we go back and forth and then we'll read each other's stuff and tweak as we go so it's a very seamless process that's awesome it's fun it should be like no we don't need to that the outline's fine and I'm like No, no, no, no, no. We need thousands. It'll be like a five-class man.

She's like, she's like, Claire, I've never done this. I don't like it. And I'm like, follow it. So for me, when we were both, I hope you don't mind me saying. I mean, we're both perimenopause or so. Our memories are shocking, like,

and I'm like, I have to have that run order. So I know exactly where I'm going, where I've been. And I need to have that other file with all the details in so that I can kind of refer back to it. Because otherwise, I would just be, swimming in an ocean. I just, yeah, I can't. Funny about it is that you do all that and I still don't look at the file. It was in the file.

It's not got that color hair. It's in the file. I've even put like, you know, gone on Pinterest and found a picture of someone. I'm like, that's what you're doing. Really? Because I just tend to ignore it. Oh gosh. That's amazing. So on our website, on the Catherine Green website, Abby has made this. It's absolutely fantastic. It's like if you love books and if you love like our books,

you have to look on the Catherine Green website. It's fantastic. And it's built up on like in the first book, there's like, you know, the town map. There's character bios. There's, you know, we've done like menus from like one of the restaurants. and things like that. So those all details, they all come in useful afterwards, even if she doesn't follow them.

Yeah. Well, speaking of like those details, like you're saying, this one has mixed media throughout it, which sounds a lot like what you're talking about there. So did you know from the beginning that you wanted to incorporate like podcasts and posts and newspaper articles? I didn't know. Podcasts was definitely a big thing, wasn't it? straight from well because we're both podcast junkies like i am it like crime is my my jam so i've been listening so long um and i know that's kind of like the hot trope at the moment i you know when we

originally came up with the concept we couldn't didn't see much of it out there so in the time we got around writing it we're like oh it's everywhere now but yeah we do this media thing because of just how um because i'm a lurker on reddit and i like to go into the true crime subreddits and all that stuff and i'm like this is just something the the community of it is so interesting and i was like to be able to incorporate that as like um you know to talk about the nature of what true crime is and today's social you know and all that it was it was fun to do it was an interesting ripple of it so yeah i feel like it makes it move faster too or like it almost makes the pacing feel faster because you're experiencing the story

in different ways and so you kind of get information in different ways and just switches it up keeps like the variety going basically yeah well it was originally it was it was just going to be like the podcasts and we were going to record some and it'd be you know all going on to the website and kind of building you know because we wanted more of an interactive website where people can go and they can you know find out so much more of it. about that because I know when I love a book I want to know everything about it and I'll find like all the little tiny extra

stories and I just kind of want to know it also we kind of wanted to do that and then I just read a book hidden pictures and yeah and the little I'd listen to the audio book which was phenomenal and then someone had said in the paperback

they've got the pictures yeah so I was like oh my gosh so I ordered it and I was like this is fantastic. And I was like, actually, this would really work for us. And we were like talking back and forth and we're like, actually the social media was actually incorporated into the sort of. And each one adds just that sort of extra layer. And I don't know, for me, it kind of makes the book more like a 3D kind of concept because it's literally a fully

revolving story with all angles covered. And yeah, it is. I think a couple of times the publishers were like, oh, I just don't think it's going to work. And we were like, no. Yeah. has to go in. It has to. Yeah. Everyone's... Yeah, I think it's a good point, too, that you're talking about, like, you consume media like that as well. And I feel a lot of thriller readers also

consume media like that as well. So, like, it feels similar to, like, our habits around, like, crime podcasts and stuff, too. Yeah, that's it. If, I mean, I know one of my favorite

books is The Martian. I read the book, I listened to the audio book, I bought the hardback, I watched the film because you just get so focused and I'm like, I want to know everything about it and actually incorporating all those kind of little things into a story really just kind of rounds it off really nicely. And like you said, it really kind of reflects on a reader's natural kind of habit

and what they do when they're obsessed with something, you know, or a story that you read in the media, you kind of want to know all the different things. it's yeah bigger true crime cases that have been recently so like the like Gabby Petito case where like it just went

and that was so much of that played out on social media and online and the way people would go into these different groups and look at like family members posts and then you'd have all this theory going on and that's kind of what we wanted to reflect in the book is that how easy it is to

the victims and like the crime itself becomes almost it becomes a form of entertainment and it's like you kind of become first in it and while there's a lot of good in that community and I think it's amazing what these like the amateur sleuths do and it's still it you almost become disconnected from it and I think that it is kind of what we wanted to show that you know at the end of the day this is a real tragedy this is a real crime and then these things have happen to real people. Yeah, sometimes I think about that in the context of like, if you were just like adjacent to someone who went missing or did something, like your whole life could become public and

you could actually have nothing to do with what happened. And I'm like, that would just be, that would be so violating. Yeah. That's exactly it. Yeah. But that's even more control you lose. Yeah. it's yeah you said violated.

Yeah. Well, along with the mixed media approach, it's also told in multiple timelines. So did you, speaking of details, did you like know what happened linearly? Did you write linearly or did you write like as it appears in the book in that order? Does that make sense? I mean, we knew because Claire is all. one that comes up with those twists she's very good at that because i'm i'm very i can write up to a point and then the endings always kill me with my books i'm like oh she's really

good with it um and i think so we knew how it was going to end and we wrote pretty yeah so it was i think it was i think how did i describe i described it as um because at first it wasn't when we were first trying to write the outline and stuff and i think i sold it to you on i kind of wanted it to be a So you were going to do the back end of the sandwich and I was going to do the front end. And then obviously it's like the story is kind of the middle bit with the different layers of social media posts. And basically it'll all kind of come together. So as you follow in sort of one timeline, you're following the other timeline from the other end and they're eventually going to meet in the middle. And that's obviously going to be yes.

Because normally obviously you read a book and it's you start, you've got your middle and then you have your ending. And we kind of wanted the endings technically sort of the middle of the book. where the plots kind of start overlapping and yeah yeah that's a cool concept i like that um the other part is the the past timeline takes place in the 90s as well and it just like brought back all of the 90s nostalgia which i don't know if you guys have gotten into tell me lies at all um but it's a like really popular right now it's like a dark academia kind of like psycho drama basically And it takes place in the early 2000s. So there's been like all this nostalgia about like being in college in 2007 and like not having social media. Did you like did you like kind of want to have some stuff in the 90s?

Oh yeah. That's what I went. Do we need straightway, didn't we? I mean, the college experience that's described was very much based off of the college I went to and a very small southern town. yeah but it was again it was this tiny little town that this college was in and like how we describe it because i talked to claire about it i'm like kind of gave her a rundown of what kind of college is like in the u.s and everything and i went i graduated in 2001 i just dated myself but um yeah so it's you know i would give her details and she's like oh okay yeah me being american and we can bring such different things to the table there. But yeah,

we were all about the 90s and providing that nostalgia and it, you know, taking you back, you know, talking about like reference in the random like, you know, Dave Matthews band. Oh my God, because like my best friend, my freshman year was obsessed

with Dave Matthews and I had to listen constantly. So it was like, you know, those little details were kind of real-life stuff that was incorporated there. Yeah. The first podcast, isn't it? When they were talking about the two podcasters and they're talking about like,

and obviously one's British and one's American and we were like both kind of putting out little bits in there to obviously show the differences between like the US and the UK as well. Yeah. Because I think you wrote it at first and I was like, I don't know any of this stuff. I'm in the UK. We changed it. Yeah, I did wonder about that because I knew you guys were one in the US and one in the UK. So when the podcast hosts were like that, I was like, I feel like that's a subtle nod to you guys writing it.

Yeah. Well, that's it. So originally they were both going to be American. And then, obviously, like I said, we like putting extra things on the website to kind of make it, you know, a sort of a little gold mine for readers kind of discovering. And then Abby had said over us recording some of the podcast. I was like, that's really good, but I can't do an American accent. I was like, we're going to have to make one of the podcasters British. I was like, anything's going to work otherwise.

Yeah. Oh, that's funny. I think the other thing that's kind of interesting, too, is like, especially with the 90s part, is that technology was so different back then. So it's like at that time, there couldn't be buzz about the girls missing the way that it is now. So it kind of like contrasted those things really well too. Yeah. And it's because yeah, in the 90s it would have been all word of mouth and it would have been like

all the game going on. And there would be the rumors aspect, but it would be very contained. You know, so the campus becomes this own little like microcosm of paranoia going on because everyone's sort of talking, but no one really knows what's going on. Just the difference day when we know everything. So it's always... Yeah. So I forgot to ask earlier, what...

So you said Claire had the initial inspiration for the book. Are you able to talk about it, or is it the spoiler that was the inspiration for it? I think I should be able to say. Okay. Well, it cut me off if not. So I normally... I'm coming up with a book, I'd normally have a picture of my head. It's normally like, usually like, I know it sounds really weird,

but it's normally like one image and the image that I had for this and I've had for years because I was, I'm always really, really curious. I'm like, with people vanish all the time, where did it go? Like, what happens? And I had this image of this little girl at a window looking out and she sees a sister go to the car and she opens the boot and then the little girl looks away for a few seconds. and looks back and she's gone. That's it. And I was kind of like, it's always something that's kind of played on my mind. Like, obviously, it's not even, it's made up, but it's still played

on my mind like 10 years later. And I'm like, but where did she go? And when we were like, bouncing these ideas off each other on book ideas, and I was like, I've kind of got an idea, but it's just literally just one image. Like, it's not even, it's not even really an idea. It's just this one thing. And I like put it to Abby. And she was like, that's the one. And I was like, brilliant. Yeah.

Because that's normally we, we've done it before, where we've kind of forced an idea and we've got like 20,000 words in and we're both kind of like, it's not working. Yeah. And then this last one, the new one that we're doing,

we'd started a couple and we've got same thing, 15, 20,000 words in and we're both kind of writing it, but not feeling it. And then Abby Keynes with this idea for this new book. And I was like, that's the one. That's the one. And we both know there's just something,

magical about when we write together that we both just know when it's the right one, don't we? Absolutely. At least you came with it like a full concept. I'm like, I'm just going to give you this one image and, you know, let's figure something out from that. It is so cool. It seems like magical to me is the word I always end up using when people say like something just like really specific like that comes to mind and then they're able to create a whole story off of it.

And it was just like a really powerful. first chapter to open up with and then like that she really like vanished in 10 seconds and then that's like related to the podcast title. It's so cool that like all of that came from like one image kind of. Well that was it. The original name of the book was

it was 10 seconds to vanish. Yeah. That was the name and it was the publisher was like no we need to think of a different name and we're like we went back and forth for months trying to think of a new name. It was really frustrating because we're like the first name's really good though. And that's what happened. She vanished in 10 seconds, which is why we were like, we both still really wanted to use

a name, hence why we used it on the podcast. We were like, neither of us wanted to kind of lose that name, did we? You're like, we're going to get it in here somewhere. Yeah, that was it. We're both just really good when I was like, it's going in. It's going now and putting it in somewhere. Yeah. Well, the other part that it kind of explores is like complex family dynamics.

like sister-sister relationship as well as relationships with their parents and then kind of like the small town vibe too is kind of like a part of all of that because everyone knows everything about everyone. Was that something that was kind of there at the beginning or did that develop as you were writing it? Yeah, I think that we, with our debut book that we wrote, we sort of kind of established these sort of parameters we like to write in. So we like, anything that deals with strong female voices, like that's what we'll write. And explore like the dynamics and the relationships between women. And so our first book was about best childhood best friends.

This one we were like, especially with Claire's concept, you know, sisters and what that means. And especially for like Lindsay, who is growing up in the shadow of a sister that she never knew. And as for the small towns, there's something about small towns. You know, it's, they're just such a, it's an interesting, like, I grew up in a very, very tiny town in Appalachia. Me too. Oh. It was like, not there, but I, yeah, I like graduate with like 105 kids. So it was very tiny.

Yeah. Yeah. So there's just something about, you know, when you go, you can't go to Walmart because it's like takes you. Yeah. And it's because you have to stop and talk to everyone because you know everyone. And, you know, after your graduating class, you run into constantly. And so there's something beautiful, but also sort of awful about it. Yeah, claustrophobic.

Exactly. And it's, I hated it so much when I was living in it. But I feel nostalgic for it now. And then I think about how I would live there again. I would lose my mind. So, but, you know, we like those. Claire's husband grew up in a small town and Wales. And so she's, we were talking about how really it doesn't matter what country you live in.

Small towns are small towns. You know, they're this wherever you are. And so she had an understanding of it in a different way. And it just sort of all came together. So I tend to think that Catherine Green books will always have the small town angle, different types of small towns, will always have strong female relationships and exploring what that means. And yeah, just family dynamics in general.

Yeah, totally. Well, I loved it. And I just keep trying not to go near the spoilers because it's just crazy. And everyone who reads it is going to be like, well, I hadn't read that idea before. It's funny. My eldest daughter,

she's 20 next year and she loves reading and she's read maybe one of my own personal books before but she's never read like it the the Catherine Green one and this one I bounced quite a lot of ideas off as I'm writing and when we were writing the Lake of Lost Girls and I was like bouncing like the first few chapters of bouncing ideas off and she was like oh yeah yeah and that that definitely works I was like okay and I got to a certain point and it was talking about that kind of magical moment where you know it's going to be really special. And I was like, I want you to read this one. I can't talk to you about it.

And she was like, really? And I was like, yeah, I really want you to read them. I think you'll really like it. Because I just kind of, the first one, I think she'd really enjoy as well. But I don't know, there's just something about this one. I think it's, you know, the mixed media concept. I really think it, it kind of hits that generation really well. And the other thing is, she's quite a slow reader.

So she could take weeks, sometimes months to read a book. And she read it in five days. it's like, because she's ever read it. And I took a photo of it as she was like, right at the start, she was like,

oh, I think I know what's going to happen. And then she'd get a bit further. And she was like, oh, now I think I know what's happening. I was like, oh, okay.

And then she'd be a little bit more. She was like, right, okay, I was wrong about that, but I think I know, I'm pretty certain I know what's happening now.

And I was like, okay. And then she got to like this sort of, last three chapters and she sat on the sofa next to me and she's reading and she goes, huh. and I was like, I got you. Yes.

And she's literally been telling everyone about all of you new friends and everything. She was like, I just didn't see it coming. It's fantastic. Mom, she was like, it's really special. And I was like, oh, that has to be the best feeling ever. Do you know what it really is? That's so kind of the age where maybe they would try to like, oh, mom's not cool. It's just mom.

I think it's uh it is it's it's it's really I mean we have a beautiful relationship oh that's awesome she's yeah we're we're really close but it's one of those she knows like with some of my other but she's like I just don't think for me and I'm like it's absolutely fine but like with this one I was like you've got to try it and she was like it sounds really good I'm definitely going to go and I was like if you start it and you know it's just not viving for you don't worry about it and she got a chubbed her and she was like no I really like it I can tell straight away I'm going to love it and I was like oh see and yeah five days issues and that's the quickest one of the quickest

thing she's ever read a book. So, and we're very, we're very truthful with each other as well. So if she didn't like it, she would have just stopped. My daughter's like, murder now. Yes, I mean, it's different for everybody. Yeah, I thought I knew I think at like 30%. I was like, oh,

I know. I did not. Because there was, there was something that then confirmed it. I was like, see. And then I was like, oh, never mind. There was a couple of reviews on like Goodreads and things. And they were like, I got the end and I was like, you absolutely did not. You have no idea. Like, shut up. Yeah. Because I didn't even know. It was, we were about, we thought we had the whole thing found. And then Abby all come to me in the morning, she'll send me a voice and she'll be like, right, shower thoughts. And she's telling you. And then I'll,

I'm going to walk in my dog and I'm like, okay, dog walking thoughts. And then I literally mess around. I was like, Abby, oh my gosh, I'll just come up with the best ending. Like, we're going to do the ending, but we've got this ending also. And we were like, oh. That's amazing. Big shout out to our beta readers. So we had two that we used to us too.

And one's a writing friend of Flares. And then the other one is a friend I've known since, like, literally I was five. But she's a librarian. She's very booky. But we, those two were invaluable with this book because a couple times they're like, you're being too obvious. You need to stop.

And because I get very stuck on like, my friend called me out on it. She knew. She was like, you've got to stop what you're doing. You're making it too obvious. It's this is what's happening. And I'm like, oh, okay.

But they were hugely instrumental because there's early, like that early feedback. Mm-hmm. So. Yeah. you want it to like feel grounded so you like want there to be crumbs but you like don't want everyone to guess it exactly and i think i was heavy-handed with the crumbs so i was like throwing it out there like oh yeah i was walking behind speaking out going no too many too many yeah yeah it's i've been working on a book but um the thing that like the

Mine is like, I think I'm like basically on the opposite. I'm like thinking like, oh, thrillers are going to pick everything up. And then I have to like remember that even when I read books sometimes, like the thing you read on this page isn't as much in your mind on page 100 because you didn't write the book. Exactly. And I do think that read a lot of thrillers are better at like picking out stuff. Like there was a book I read just recently. I told Claire, I was like, I figured out who did it. like the two chapters in, but then I'm like, is it because I write and I'm in that headspace? I think the thriller readers can do that to themselves too, where you know, you're like,

oh, I can pick this part. But it doesn't mean you don't enjoy the book. I think it's just, you know, you can still. It's one of those, isn't it? It's even if you can guess the ending, reading a book, or listen to it, you know, an audio book, it's the journey more than anything. A lot of the time when you're watching a movie, you kind of, you know, you know, when you watching a rom-con they're going to end up together but it's the journey that it takes you on to

get there you know and a thriller you know someone's died but it's kind of the journey on how they got to that position um yes it's that so sometimes it's i think as long as it's enthralling enough and it keeps you interested enough that you kind of want to keep on reading regardless of whether you've figured it out but yeah yeah i've had i've left or whatever i've written pretty i can't speak I've written plenty of reviews. Apparently that's a tongue twister, where I've even said, like,

even though I like guessed one of the things at 70%, I still so enjoyed like all the characters. Like sometimes it really just doesn't matter if you guess it or not. And it's like sometimes you're wrong too. So it's like it's not like, it's just like sometimes you're right. Sometimes you're wrong.

It's like whatever. Yeah, with that hidden pictures, I kind of knew straight away. It was like, it was really. obvious and but he didn't he didn't try to hide it either it was it was there in plain sight straight away so um it but he didn't ruin the experience it was just kind of like right okay well I know it's it's pretty obvious what's going to happen and obviously as it built it was just more and more suspenseful because I knew what was going to happen I knew where it was going to get

there and and actually if anything it probably added to the to the journey for me because um because yeah it was kind of like how are you going to get to that point which is I think is why with the Lake of Lost Girls, we opened up straight into the story with like, this is what happened. Do you know what I mean? It's how it got to that point. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right.

I think horror kind of is a genre works in that way that you're talking about because I know it's crazy that you brought it up. I just did an episode with one of my friends about hype books that we like missed out on and need to read. And Hidden Pictures was one of mine. so now I'm like clearly I'm meant to read hidden pictures this month. You are, you are. But I do think with horror sometimes, like it's the dread. Like it's not the not knowing. Sometimes it's knowing is like even worse sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and that's what it is with that hidden pictures. It was, it was, I knew it was going to be horrific. And I knew what was going. But like you said, it was like, I thought there was a ghost behind you, which you dog. Yeah. Not really scared me.

It was how it was going to get to that point that was kind of like read it. Obviously it's an amazing book. It's beautifully written. But like I said, the audio book's fantastic. The paperback is like a keepsake. But yeah, sometimes things don't need to be completely hidden. Being in plain sight is actually, it can be really good. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I obviously loved, like, I've lost girls. And I'm so glad I got to talk with you guys about it. It sounds like you guys are readers, too. And I have been asking people if they've read anything recently that they loved. Sounds like you loved hidden pictures. But do you guys have any that you've read recently? I'm reading right now. I'm like a huge Simone St. James fan. I love her. I've read for the road for newest one right now. Nice. everything that woman writes is just great yeah yeah yeah i need to get to that one i've just binged a couple of her books um i'm actually right now reading um the dot hutchinson series um it set off with the is it the butterfly garden yes i'm on the book three at the moment the summer children um so yeah listen to those on audio book as i'm driving going twice round the roundabout because i want to keep on listening.

That's amazing. Yeah, that series is so good. I loved that. Yeah, it's really, really good. Do you know, I like, I like that they're all faintly connected as well. You've got some like crossover characters in and, but they're all the sort of complete stories

are all on their own as well, which is, which is really good. Yeah, that's always cool when people can pull that off. Hmm. Where should people follow you guys to stay up to date? either individually or as Catherine Green. Well, I think our Instagram page is probably the easiest Twitter, whatever, and Facebook as well. But we also have a website, catherinegreen.com.

But yeah, I think that's definitely, definitely advise you to check out the website. If you read any of our books, it's definitely worth going on. There's a whole host of, we've got short stories on there, We've got, you know, character bios, town maps. We've got all sorts of both books.

And yeah, I just, I just visit it all on my own sometimes. Just have a little mooch about. Yes. I love that. We did for this one, I think, is pretty cool. Like how we, like, how we connected it all together. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm going to have to check it out. And the links will be in the show notes for everyone. And thank you so much for talking with me today. Thank you, very. much.