Bookwild - Keeping the Paint Wet: A New Writing Series with Halley Sutton (aka I said I would finish my book this year so I need to get on it)

Episode Date: March 11, 2025

This week, Halley Sutton and I introduce a new series about writing! I've said on this podcast a few times that I will finish my book this year, and this series is a way to make sure I do spend time on it, and stay in the writing state of mind. For our first topic of this series, we talk about things that keep us close to writing even when we aren't putting down tons of words. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

Well, I am back with Hallie. I feel like your eyes look so green and beautiful because of your green shirt. Thank you. That's so nice of you. This is a little shameless plug to get people to go watch on YouTube. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Holly actually did her makeup today.

I went, I don't know why I referred to myself in the third person. I do it to you. I went and got coffee earlier, which I'm still working on. And the marista who I'm friends with was just like, oh, you look different today. And I'm like, it's makeup. I put on makeup. I'm talking to Kate. I put on makeup.

Sometimes, because like what I've learned is my lips are naturally, like, I am downturned more than I am upturned. Sometimes when I put lipstick on and then I'm just like chilling, Tyler's like, you look more sad. And then finally I figured out out because when I'm like in my like resting kind of bitch face, I think it accentuates it when I put lipstick on. I'm like, damn. You're like, okay, savage. Good to know. So, yeah, how have you been in general? Have you read anything, watched anything?

Yeah. I, oh gosh. Yes, I have done a little bit of both. I've been good. I don't remember if I've talked to you since the L.A. fires. Just once. Yeah.

So, you know, things are, I mean, I'm lucky enough that I wasn't as impacted as some people. So for me, it feels coming back to normal. I suspect that's not the case for everyone. And there's definitely things that aren't normal, but, um, you know, things are good other than that. And then, and, you know, the daily horrors of the landscape in which we live. Um, yeah. I, so I have not been reading as much as normal. I started on some like freelance editorial work. And part of the reason I mentioned that is that that's going to play into like our conversation about today with writing. Um, but I have read, I'm about, to finish this book, and it's coming out in July, and I absolutely loved it. It's like somewhere

between dark academia and a cozy. It's called History Lessons by Zoe B. Walbrook. And it's the start of a series. And it's this woman who is a faculty member receives a text from a man who winds up dead and it like leads her into this mystery around what happened to him. But she's also tackling issues like systemic racism in academia, prison abolition. But like, so I'm saying all of this and I'm like, like loving to see it and so juiced about it. And at the same time, she has created this like beautiful, warm world that is so satisfying for me to be living in right now.

That's just all of the horrors can be true and we can still find a way to like find joy. And it like really feels like the book I need in 2025. So I highly recommend this to everyone. she is like such a great writer. It's so funny. She just was in my author newsletter too, shameless plug. Yeah. And in that you get like a sense of her writing voice. And she's just like so funny and smart and it's it's great. I did see this in your newsletter. I just added it. That is impressive to fit all of that in one book. It really, it really is. I don't know how she does it. Like I'm about to send her like a geeky little note being like, teach me your secrets.

Because like it's so well done where it's like really tackling. hard issues while at the same time the book itself it feels so like wonderful to live in. And I'm just like, could you run for president? Like I would vote for you. So that's one book I've been reading. Another book I've been reading I have here with me, Victorian Psycho by Virginia Faito. And I am not that far into it, but I am loving it.

Just like feed it directly into my veins. It is so unvenged. So beautiful. I'm really into it. Have you read it? I know we've talked about it. No, but I was just thinking, I was like, who was that I just interviewed? It felt like it was forever ago, but it was just on Monday. So as you're listening to this, this episode isn't out. But I interviewed Emily Carpenter for Gothic Town. And Victorian Psycho was her answer for like the book she loved that she read most recently. So you're, you're, book Wild is pushing this book even though I haven't read it. And it's like short. It's not very long. I don't even think it's 200 pages. But like I'm loving what she's doing with this sort of like archetype we have of like the gothic Victorian nanny who's like, is she crazy?

All the children crazy. All the children ghosts. And like she's like leaving way into it. And it's so good. And then what are. It's very body horrory, right? Yes. Yes.

That was the other thing I heard. Yeah. I'm not super. I'm like on chapter three. But I can already like at the like. the like beginnings of that. She's like seating it in their well, which is like very cool also pushing against like the Victorian tropes

of basically being like, you don't have a body from here or down. And instead she's like all embodied. It's really cool. Yeah, it's great. And then what am I watching? I feel like I saw a movie recently, but I couldn't tell you what it was.

That's good. I did watch. Are you watching? Okay, I didn't watch the finale last night. So if you did, don't tell me. but I started watching the traitors. Do you watch the traders? No, I haven't watched this season, but I've seen the other ones. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I want to. Like, it's fun to hate Tom Sandival. All that. Okay. So I have two culture writers that I follow, like their substacks. One of them is a woman named Sachi Cool, sorry. And she just has a book out this week, which is part of why I mentioning it called Sucker Punch, which is essays about her divorce. She's great. separate from the story. The other one is a culture writer named Hunter Harris, and she is so funny, and she has a newsletter that comes out twice a week, and it's like gossip or like pop culture

ruminations and all these different stuff. And she kept putting out stuff about Sandoval and the traitors so much so, and I finally folded and was like, I'm watching it. Like I'm, I'm going to see this man dissolve on television in real time. It's going through withdrawals. Like, I've seen, I've seen clips. Yes. He's like, clearly. d-teeing in the beginning of the season. And I... He's so sweaty everywhere. Like, so sweaty and, like, see-through white.

And he just, like, does not have a normal expression on his face ever. Like, he has always just... Like, somebody could be, like, saying something innocuous, and you turn to him, and he's, like... It's not normal, and it's so funny. And, like, truly, I actually think it was such a genius choice for him, because he has such a bad reputation after the scandal of all of it all. And like now seeing him as like America's clown is really quite funny and endearing. It's pretty great.

And yeah, there's one episode where he has to like sing lullabies backwards into a telephone. And I swear Kate, he's like got a finger to the air and he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it is like, of course he is. Oh, my God. Like, we're like trying that day. I know. I'm like, I can do this on national television, you know.

It could be worse. Yeah, yes. Things could be worse. That's for sure. Oh, my God. He's such a mess. And just, I think he's truly not aware of it. Like, he can't be.

I think he thinks he's fine. There's one point in the show where he's like, I'm just too good. I'm just like, I'm just too good. And you're like, the production's like, definitely that's it buddy that's why yes Tom I need to watch it

I have some work that I can do or that I'll be doing like tomorrow that doesn't require audio so it means I think it all slot it in like that's how I tend to be able to fit in like reality TV shows or like the traders for sure for sure so yeah so tell me

What about you? Have you been reading anything great or watching anything? Yes. So my reading is slow for a couple of reasons that actually will fit this episode too. But what was it that I just finished? It just left my mind completely. Oh, I finally read everybody knows that you recommended. That's why I was trying to remember it. What did you think? I loved it. I was obsessed. Yeah. For anyone, I'm sorry if I've seen. said this a lot on the podcast. I don't know if I have, but February, January and February have just been like weird health wise for us. And so when I was super sick, I picked up everybody knows because I was like, I need something that I know I'm going to love. And you had talked

about it recently. And then Greg talked about it too. And so it was just like very top of mind. I've loved it. I just love L.A. Noir, though. I highlighted so many things. I know. And he does such a good job. Like I, it really made me laugh the day that you posted on an Instagram about you reading it. Also my Goodreads review of it, which I stand by it, which is like, I am fucking furious that a man wrote this book because it is so good. And the way he metabolizes like recent things that have like happened in Los Angeles, like that scandal about the like, I think it was a democratic, like, like, that's real. That happened in L.A. And he's like, taking these pieces and metabolizing it into something that is like so interesting about

Los Angeles. And like that book when it came out won all sorts of awards. And I was always just like, cool. Yep. Yep. You know, absolutely,

man. Like that you're, you were fucking great. And like, it's so good. And he writes women really well. There's a character. Yeah.

Amazing. The, like, the publicist. I think her name's May. Yes. Yeah. Oh,

God. I'm so glad you read it. I'm so glad you read it. I'm so glad. loved it too. I loved it so much. And I got a copy of it at Murder by the Book because I was there on Tuesday. I feel so long ago. So I have a book trophy version of it too. I of course read it digitally first. Nice. And then what was the other thing? Well, I just started the unlucky ones by Hannah Morrissey. because I'm going to her, like, joint book launch at Murder by the Book at the end of the month.

So I just started that one. So I'm in the midst of that. And Black Harbor is creepy and wonderful. So it's a series for anyone who's like, why did you just say Black Harbor? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like an ER dispatcher or in my right? Yeah. It cycles through different people in that same town.

but then like there's like crossover of like characters. And then this one is a return to like one of the characters. So yeah. But yeah, that is good so far. I just haven't read a ton because we traveled this week. But I did. I don't know. I don't think I've talked to you about it.

Gare watched a movie called Fame on Hulu a while ago. Fame. I'm just going to restart that. I don't love the dancers? No. So, Gare watched a movie called Fim on Hulu here recently. Have you seen it?

No, but I think I've seen clips of it sense or something. And it totally looks at my alley. Oh my gosh. It is fantastic. So this was actually another one where like, I was so sick that I like was like, I can't even read.

And I was like, oh, yeah, Gare said that movie. movies go, I'll watch it. It's like 90 minutes and so suspenseful. So it's about, I can't remember the names at this point, but it's about a man who's a drag queen. And he performs one night and when he's walking home, he like becomes the victim of like a really horrific violent hate crime from these three, two or three men, but one in particular. And so he basically like stops going out and drag he like as traumatized obviously and but then he goes out to a bathhouse one night and sees one of the men at the bathhouse and that guy does recognize him because he only saw him

when he was in drag and so he approaches him to plot some revenge it is amazing and like that's kind of all you want to know I was shocked the way they make you feel throughout the movie off and on. It's really good. It's very beautiful, too. Okay. I'm excited. I got to check that one out. I know.

Gare and I were like, how had neither of us heard of this? It came out in like 2022, I think. Yeah. That's what we found out. It's so up our alleys. Yeah. Yeah.

And then otherwise, of course, I'm watching Severance. Everybody knows that. Yes. At this point. And White Lotus, actually. Oh, me too. I am also watching the White Lotus. I haven't watched episode three. So I haven't watched like this Sunday's episode yet.

But I am loving it. I love his writing. I love his style. It's just I can remember who I was saying this too, but every year you're like, not every year. But like since this is the third one, I'm like that he really is doing the same thing every season. And you're like, is it still going to be good? I eat it all up.

And it's so good. Yeah, totally. I'm, too. And I'm like, I feel like now with the third season, I like am trying to read it a little better. Like I remember season, you kept seeing those heads of the Testa de Mora, right? Which were about like, like infidelity and different things. And then that plays into the story in an interesting way.

So I feel like we keep seeing monkeys and like the monkey gone. Everywhere. Yeah. And so I'm curious what that means in terms of like where the story is going or thematically what the themes are. And yeah, I'm doing it too. There's a lot going on that Parker Posey's family is terrifying. Definitely. Okay. Are you on the side of like incest vibes or no incest vibes? Because I am seeing a debate online. Just incest vibes. Right. There is no debate. I've been seeing people being like, that's weird. And I'm like, no way. My roommate and I saw it happen like the first second,

like they came on screen and we were like, okay, what's up like going there. Like that's the thing. I mean, there are two scenes I'm thinking of right now where I'm like, there's no way that's just brotherly normalness. No. Oh, my God. Yeah. And she's just medicated all the way through it. So she doesn't know what's happening. I know it's the gills.

And then the father's dissolving. And the daughter, it's interesting. The daughter is clearly the most likable one. But also in her own way is like problematic, which I think is interesting. Like, it's easy to lose that. Like, because everybody else around her. her is so terrible, but she's still kind of like, I don't know, kind of coming here and basically being like, well, I get to be like you, you know, like I get to kind of like adopt whatever I want

after this culture. Yeah. I agree. It is. But you put her next to them and you like think she's like, oh, at least she's kind of decent. Totally. Totally. Yeah. My gosh. And I can't remember her name on the show, but Natasha Rothwell's son. Yes. Beautiful. Yes. I know. And I'm very. nervous about Natasha Rockwell. Because I'm like, women who come on for multiple seasons tend to have bad things happen to them. Her last season. Yeah.

So I'm like, girl, you got to run. I know. I know. And the three, oh my God, the three women on vacation together might be my favorite scenes, though. Like you're even like cringing. Like you almost have to look away. But you're like, this is, this is, you can tell how much of a housewives fan he is.

totally and I really appreciate at first I thought it was going to be people ganging up on Carrie Coon. This one. Yeah. Yeah, the one who's kind of like the more normal. She hasn't had as much of the plastic surgery, blah, blah, blah. And I love that her as an actress. But then I love that he's doing the thing. And this felt so relatable to me in a way that like I'm maybe not proud of.

But like the sort of like when there's three people in a group, like you all take turns like kind of talking shit about each other in different ways. like you're at different things everybody's aligning in different ways it was like so well done it's so juicy Tyler's just like oh my gosh these scenes are so funny like he just though I think those are his favorite scenes even yeah they're so good yeah there's good TV on again and we we wanted to go see captain America and they're sick when it came out so I need to see if it's still in theaters because normally we would have seen that by now but whatever so yeah um we have kind of a different subject matter slash direction direction slash theme i don't know all of those words but so obviously i have at this point my tuesday episodes are normally with authors typically like new releases um and then like bookish buddy episodes on Friday. And so sometimes it makes for an intense experience when I don't have an author lined

up. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, now I have to read a whole other book to try to reach out to someone to see if I want to have them on. And absolutely no shade in what I'm saying here too. Sometimes people like say they're down and then don't respond. And it's because we're all adults and we're all busy and we have tons of stuff happening. So anyway, I was just thinking about it because I was running into that in February, especially. And I was like, okay, so do I, but I'm someone who's like, if I'm saying I have Tuesday and Friday episodes, then I must have Tuesday and Friday episodes. So I still want to be able to interview authors anytime I'm like wanting to talk to them

about their book. But I was like, if I shifted my time around, is there something I would rather spend my time on that's also not as stressful to schedule four episodes every month. And I was like, well, I literally said on an episode with Hallie, I'm kind of addressing the audience at this point, obviously, that I was going to at least query once my unfinished book this year, or manuscript, whatever I should call it, in its infancy. and I was like well I'm not doing I'm not able to fit as much of that in when I'm like stressed out about reading a book to fit this so I was like maybe it would be fun to do um episodes some of the episodes on Tuesdays about writing like that actually really is just like the big banner so anything that falls underwriting in general and since you were who I said that goal with. I was like, I wonder if Hallie would want to do a series like that. So that, as you know, she's here. So she said yes. And like, like, I love our conversations and I love talking about

writing with you. And we've had more conversations about writing like even offline from the podcast that people go here. And it's a good excuse for me to where I'm coming at it is I've spent the last like year and a half working on a book three that I think I'm going to now be putting aside for a while. Yeah. Because it wasn't coming together the way that. that I wanted. And I've had like a new idea enter the frame. And so for me, this also feels like a good place to be like making myself be accountable and trying to like more deeply into my writing practice. And so I'm so excited to be here with you talking about all of this. Me too. I'm excited. I know it'll hold me a little more accountable to it. And it's like,

well, first, I loved your topic that you brought up was like things that keep you close to writing, even if you aren't actually always writing every single day, essentially. It's like a longer version of the title. But that was because that fit a lot with the things that I was already thinking about because I was like, I think I've said it on here before. So like, I'm not, I wasn't like, oh my God, I'm not writing. And it's because I'm like, whatever, like, just scrolling TikTok. I do scroll TikTok.

But it's like keeping the podcast going, all of that. like all still kind of helps the platform in general. So it's kind of like how that was already something where I'm like, well, it's still keeping me adjacent to writing. But now I'm like, okay, how can I like really work it in those? So it's not like, oh, I don't have time, but it's because of this. It's like, what if I can merge them together? So I love that as a first topic too.

Yeah, yeah, me too. And it felt like something that you and I are both in the midst of right now where like, I'm curious to hear where you're at with your writing since we've last talked about it. But I know when you and I have a place about it recently, we're both kind of in a similar place where we're like, we're doing more thinking about it sometimes than actually putting words on a page. But I think that there's still like really valuable conversations to be had around like, what is what is writing look like if it's not just like I'm attached to my keyboard? Right. And like when you have other responsibilities in your life too, like kind of like,

of like that angle of it as well where it's like it's not the only it's not the thing making me money actually at all right now for me so it's like the other stuff still has to get done so sometimes it's like what are the other ways you can still like you're saying like you're still thinking about it or well i have a couple of things basically i'm sure you do too why don't you kick us off okay so i had to stop myself from texting you this multiple times because i was like, this is worth saving for the podcast and getting her reaction in real time. But one of the things that I think was in the back of my mind when I was thinking about this was when you were on the Imposter Hour podcast, they basically kind of asked you if you had,

it was something along lines of if you had advice for people who were like wanting to write more or just whatever, writing in general. and you talked about keeping the paint wet and that has like stuck in my head because sometimes it pops into my head and I'm like, you're not keeping the paint wet, Kate. So it was funny because it was like that was even a part of like kind of even thinking like, oh, what if the podcast could help me do that though in a different way? Because I think you're right. It's like I should be able to write even like 200 words a day technically.

And so it's like, I think if I'm talking about it more, then I will be keeping the paint wet a little bit, which also I was like, is that a good series name? And we can like literally call back to you saying it on another podcast. So all of that like coalesced on my plane ride. And I was like, I'm going to tell her live. I love that. I love that so much. I'm so glad that that like stuck with you. And I love that idea is the title. I, you know, and to be fair, like, I don't know. I go, I bounce between various levels of like strictness for me where I'm with you. It's like truly all of us could, you could write 100 or 200 words a day like you just could. But I also think that like even just talking about it is so valuable. Like that is something that I also have on my list is like how often I talk about projects with people and like keep it in your mind and keep it fresh. And like even if it's sort of in the back like just sort of running on like, you know, like an app you have running in the background.

I think that there's something really valuable about that too. And I think that counts as keeping the paint wet, like just engaging with it in some way. Yeah. And that like the other like side of that for me then too is like imposter hour. I obviously edited as well. So it's another thing where like that keeps me close to it because I'm also hearing from writers that like I'm not always reading like a lot of them I have. But not it's not always the case. But also it's not. It's not always the case. But also it's. There have been a few episodes with authors who, like, I reached out to previously and it, like, nothing came from it. So then it's been fun to have this as a reason to be like, oh, now I get to hear this person talk about their process. And they just, like, they're asking so many questions about, it's called Imposter Hour, about people's, like, imposter syndrome. So you're also getting to hear how many people have, like, head trash about just, like,

sitting and writing. So I feel like it also like that keeps it in my mind as well. Yeah, totally, totally. And I'm with you. It's so fascinating to hear people. Who do they, they had one recently. I don't remember who it was with, but they asked like, you know, what are your feelings of being an posture? And they basically were like, I don't. And I was like, teach me. Yes. So my like guru, I follow you forever. Like what? Yes. Yes. That was, was it marriage. Meredith Moran. I think that's who that was. It might have been. Yeah. I don't remember, but she was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, wow, like you or who I want to be when I grew up. That's awesome. No. I know. Alona Marr said that too when she was in an interview recently. So I was like, how do you deal with

imposter syndrome? And she was like, I don't deal with it. I worked for what I have. It makes sense to me. And I was like, what must life be like having that instilled in you from the beginning? That's a confidence. I love it. more of that please in 2025 yeah i love her so much she's so cool um so there's that and then the other funny thing was the longer i got thinking about it so you also in that episode i'm just going to quote you back to you this whole this whole afternoon um i'm a leo so this is like my love language i'm like really i'll keep going then uh you were at that fate whenever you recorded that were in a phase where you were getting really into wrestling was like super interesting. So you

like mention it to them and then share some of the cool stuff that you learned. And I was like, damn, I didn't know all this about wrestling either. But you mentioned how like the you like as a writer or probably like an artist in general, it's important to like know the things you get obsessed about, like the things that do interest you to like an insane level. Yeah. And I remember connecting with that much because what I am writing right now incorporates like how much I love thrillers, how much I love suspense, but also like how fascinated I am by pop culture in general and like who we pretend to be or who we present as like all of that is very intriguing to me. So it made sense that like that was something I'd want to write about kind of to your point because like you find the things

you're like really obsessively into like you probably could write a story about them because you're so interested in them totally and I think that like so many I have no I'm going to say this as if I know anything and I don't like I don't know anything in terms of the like what this is on a brain level but like for me my feeling about creativity is that so much of it is this weird like mulch of stuff you've inputted and stuff that you admire it's like I want to write something like X and I'm also obsessed with Y and like eventually something comes out of it. And so like I am always a big fan of like when you find something that lights you up, just like keep following it because like your brain is going to do something with it. Even if it's not like for this story or this moment, like eventually

it'll come out in a weird way. And like that's what I keep doing with wrestling. And I think that like it's so interesting you mentioned that about like the false selves and presentation because I think that is what I'm obsessed with in wrestling is the idea that they like create a persona and then they like live that persona and like how the lines get blurred. And I think that's so similar to things we've talked about with your book too about like, yeah, you know, the presentation of self and fame and like, especially on like a reality show where you're like constructing something. But then like at which when do you stop realizing that you've constructed this? When is it you? You know? Right. Yeah. That kind of along those lines what in terms of like, uh, in terms of following things that you're

already interested in. So I was actually listening to a podcast that I listened to every day earlier this morning. And one of the guests was talking about a book that she just read called You Didn't Hear This From Me. And the subtitle is mostly True Notes on Gossip. So it's like here's the one sentence. A delightfully insightful exploration of our obsession with gossip that It weaves together journalism, cultural criticism, and memoir from the host of the massively popular normal gossip podcast. Oh, yeah. Have you listened to normal gossip at all?

I have not listened to this podcast either. I was like, how have I not heard of this? Check it out. It's really interesting. Like, somebody will come on and tell a story and be like, my friend Kate has a friend who this happened to. And then they like analyze it. And it's something really interesting, how satisfying it is to hear this like normal

gospel about people you don't know, you know? like it's like hearing celebrity gossip but this is just like I don't know these people like let's hear this weird little story that okay so I do need to listen to this yeah but basically I heard her talking about this and I like immediately downloaded it on audible because I'm like that's even right in line with what I'm wanting what I'm writing right now and this almost sounds like a sociological view of gossip and I'm like I am going to eat this up and so that it reminded me of you saying it in your imposter hour episode that it's like, yeah, like consume the things that are like inherently interesting or attractive to you. Totally. Totally. And I think that there's like a weird magic that

happens sometimes when you're in the process of writing something and all of a sudden you become obsessed with something else or something else shows up that you're really like, I don't know if it's a Wikipedia entry or whatever it is that you're just like, I have to stop and read this right now. Sometimes and it's probably that you're just like in a state where you're primed to see connections between stuff, which is what I think creativity really is, is like connecting different things. But like sometimes you'll like find the thing that you're missing in your project by doing that. And you're like, I have no idea why like this story about this woman from the 1300s is the thing that I need. But like this one weird detail actually solves this other thing in my project that's

really different. Like I have found that that has happened a bunch of times. And I don't know what that is. It's probably more that like my brain is looking for that than it's like something magical handed. but it has a feeling of like, I don't know, magic. Well, it's interesting you say the word magical because that was reminding me a couple of years ago. I listened to Big Magic. And she kind of talks about that idea of like how ideas will even almost like present themselves to different people until someone like grabs it and writes it. But like butterclicking examples. Yes, she did.

And she has one with like herself and Ann Patchett, who is a writer. That's the exact one that came to mind where I was like, oh my God, because was it Tomlake? Is that, was that even what it? I can't remember. I can't remember which one was. The one of the Amazon, because that's what I just remember was that it was like, Liz Gilbert was working on a book about the Amazon or something and she like couldn't get a question about it.

And then she was like talking to Anne Patchett about it like six months later. And she's like, I just started working on this book about the Amazon. And it was like the same book that she had been writing, but that she had stopped writing. And it was like this idea that like if you don't, if you don't use the idea, it will go to someone else. Like that the ideas are out there in this collective unconscious way and like looking to be born. I know. It's such a fun idea, fun concept. I still like think about it like pollinating different people was kind of like the visual in my head. But that book was like it just is magical. You're like, hmm, what if creativity is a little more magical?

Totally, totally. And I love that. I feel like we can trust her. Right. Yeah. At this point. Kind of, but along the same lines of consuming stuff, it's the same thing with reading stuff, watching stuff. Those are the two things.

I was thinking TV and film separate, but I'm like, oh, you watch both of those. But like, there are things. that like I just ever since I read uh save the cat writes a novel um I just I love trying to find even if it's not all of those plot points but like uh oh we're breaking into two oh we're at the midpoint like oh we're breaking into three or we're uh rallying the troops or whatever um so like it's fun for me to watch watch movies I and then I annotate with like books but it's fun watching and reading them from that perspective because for me it's just like learning different ways to use like those structures or like even how they talk about you have to

like know the rules so that you can know how to break them so then even seeing how some people like shuffle around the midpoints and stuff um I feel like it's also like so inspiring coincidentally I was just talking about look closer earlier this week with another reader and Tyler was there and I was like that's the one that like I read a couple years ago and I told you I was like I just want to pull off a con thriller that complicated sometime in my life so it's like tends to be complicated books that give me that feeling is the thing I'm picking up on but it is like it is inspiring and I think sometimes that's what also then reminds me it's like hey you you want to

finished your own story too like maybe you should get back to it totally totally and i think that that's like a smart thing to observe about yourself too of like i'm really drawn to these like complicated intricate thoughts and like that that may be something to work on down the line even if it's like daunting or whatever and i totally do i do the same thing that was like one thing i have on my list too is like when i'm trying to stay in touch with a project or like foster my creativity i do think i watch or read things differently like there's so much that that happens with me and Netflix or like streaming. And I'm sure this is true of a lot of people where you're sort of like numbing out,

you know, like maybe watch before something that's not that engaging and you're not really bringing like a critical thinking brain to it. You're just sort of like, their long week. The horror for real unplugged. And I think that like that's great. I have no notes about that.

But I think that like there is like a different, it does feel like a creative exercise if you're like watching a film or a TV show or reading a book and you're really trying to like, deconstruct it and be like, what is it about this that's working for me? Where are the beats hitting? What is this like making me feel or not feel and why? You know, like, and I think that it's like valuable to be like using our creative brain in that way. Even if you're not specifically thinking, like, how does this translate exactly to my project? I think like engaging with media in that way, it's like using your creative brain and like getting things turning in a way that like will ultimately

benefit your project and like your creativity overall. yeah yeah and it that was making me think of um oh oh it's it it's made me think more frequently to about like the very stark differences in the mediums of having a visual yeah like versus what you write so it's like um you think like broadly like you don't have to work with a budget when you're writing a novel like you can write whatever your imagination can come up with then like with with visuals there's like a lot of budgeting that you're going to have to think about but then there are like I had this I've started finally just like writing down things that don't apply to like what I am currently writing but it's like if it does pop into my head I'm like oh

but um Tyler Tyler Faves big big a big spoiler alert or something big podcast yeah and he had been, I thought he was upstairs. And I like walked back in and saw like smoke where like the sun was coming in. And I was like, oh, that would be such a cool way to like drop a hint of something to the audience. Like if they caught on, but not everyone might catch on, but you can have like smoke linger. And that could mean so much. But you couldn't do that necessarily in a book because the only way to draw attention to it is to be like very direct. So it's either like your characters noticing it.

or you can't just like sneak it in. So I don't know that, I mean, I'm not against writing TV or movies in general. I don't know if that's where I'm going to end up. But it's kind of fun to think about the different mediums too, just in general. Totally, totally. I have so much to say about that. And I, but first I want to say like at first of all, that image is like beautiful and great. And I do the same thing too.

Like I always have a notebook with me, always forever. Right now I have this little guy who were in a. fight, but that's okay. That's adorable. He's falling apart and I keep gluing him back together and it's just not working. But I am also a person who like, I have to finish the notebook once I start it so I can't just move to another notebook. So like for his disagreement about his utility.

And like I'm disrespecting him so much. I'm calling him a man. That's where I'm out. I know. I know. I was like it's because he's a man. Exactly. And but I always like love jotting that stuff down because you never know when you're

going to use it. Right? Like you might use it in some future thing or the same with like if there's like a really well planted clue in something I watch or read or something. I always steal it even if I'm not going to use it, even if I'm not going to plagiarize it and use it like exactly the way they did. Like how do they do that? You know, there's this one movie called, I think it's called reversal of fortune. And it's about a real life murder case. And about whether the wife is diabetic. And because that's how she's died is like an overdose of insulin. And she says, says something along the lines of like, what for insulin? My lady was not a diabetic. But like the clue you're supposed to get under that is that she has needles around. So the lady is actually a drug addict. She's not, but she's not a diabetic. But there are needles. And really interesting scaffolding of something that's like underneath. And I always like write stuff like that down because it's so like, oh, that's really well done. But to go back to your point too about the like, the. The. cinema of it all. I think that's so interesting and you're so on the money with that. And I feel

like something that I read a lot in people's manuscripts where I can tell that they're chasing something cinematic rather than like adhering to the rules of writing a book is like head hopping POVs. Like they're literally imagining a book as a camera, which I think is bad. I think that there's like smart things you can do with that. But they're turning the like they're, it's like we're zooming in on a shot and we're in a person's head and that person has no bearing on the story and then we're like pivoting to something else. And it's like that actually isn't the convention of how you write a book. It might be the convention of how you watch a movie or a TV show and we've like gotten that ingrained. But like it is disorienting for the reader. And it's like not working within the conventions of POV. Although you can't

have a third person omniscient of POV, but then you have to have rules around it, blah, blah, all this stuff in a way that's like it's so interesting to see because filmmaking is like the dominant language of narrative at this point. It's not books in many ways, you know? Right. Well, yeah. Well, and it's funny you bring it up because I'm trying to do third person omniscient for my reality TV family, but I think I think we even talked about it here. What finally clicked to those, because like for their story, it worked to feel like you're almost watching. Yeah. Like that you're like a a god above them or whatever um experiencing it but it's also like really only two characters and most of the time you're still just with one right um but it was interesting because like i never would

have thought that i would have done that and then when we did our first writing sprint which i can't remember which month that was that was when i was like oh i just need to do it like this and who knows maybe it won't stay like that and maybe it would like totally go into more divided chapters But yeah, sometimes when you're reading a book like that, you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're just like all over the place. Yeah. Or like, again, I'm also like a huge fan of like whatever works to get stuff down, I think is the way you should do it. And then you can figure out what you're doing later.

Like I think that is just like part of the creative process. And then I think I think anything can work if it's done well. But like I almost always feel like for something like that you have to have certain rules around it. You know what I mean? Where it's like or or not. sometimes people can pull it off too but like it is thing i feel like you can see that influence of like filmmaking on the way we tell stories even though they are very different mediums yeah and it sometimes i also then notice it so we started watching paradise i don't know if you've seen any of paradise i

haven't but i do know it and i actually do know what the twist from the first which is which sucks i'm really glad that i saw a tic talk early enough on that was like that whatever we're dancing around it that it just felt like a secret service protecting the president show essentially is what I'll say and so thankfully I saw it early enough that I didn't get the spoiler and so as I've heard a lot of people say pilot is one of the best episodes one of the best pilot episodes I've ever seen then we kind of we kind of veer into some like cW-esque dialogue in a few moments after the fact it's very entertaining though like you cannot argue with the fact that it's extremely entertaining anyway with the first episode though um i think because i had just oh i just finished this book

will bury me um which does such a great job of having like multiple like an ensemble cast even though you're really just with jane but i think because i was so in that mindset that when we were watching it I was so aware of how much like you're like with this person. And then all of a sudden you're like across town with someone else for such short scenes. And I was like you really, I was so aware of like how you can't you can't do it that way with a book. Like not not the way this this pilot works because they do it that many ways. But like if you tried to read it, you'd be like, what is happening? Totally.

Or like you could do that and like that feeling of disorientation is what you're trying to promote. True, true. You know, like, I think that there, I think it just is being aware of, like, the effect it has on your reader and whether or not that's, like, actually what you want for that moment in your book, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's such a fascinating show. I think it is also, which, one, I am not saying it's a bad show. I hope that's, like, very clear. It's there were just some moments where, like, there's dialogue. I looked at Tyler, and I was like, well, now I'm out of it a little bit. just a little yeah yeah but um i also think it's it's suffering because i'm watching at the same time as severance and it's just like they're not the same things yeah um so it's like that that's also what's happening where like all of the dialogue is so intentional and like insane world building um which that's another show that's been really had that's really had me um like noticing and thinking about how much more you can do with one

frame you can like give so much information to the audience that you couldn't just with one sentence always in a book it's it's they can like the episode that aired last night i won't even like say anything slightly spoilery but like even like uh the town that it was taking place in there were so many things that i didn't even write down in my notes and i wrote extensive notes um like there are logo logos all over the place that like they're not zooming in on the logo it's just like when they're driving through town it's like kind of faded on the back of something so there's there's so much information you can pack in that you have to do differently totally totally like right you're right in like one glance you can get all of this even if you're not reading every logo but like you understand how that plays

into the story in a certain way you're right and like that's much harder to do on like a one sentence level in a book. But on the flip side, you get to like really be in somebody's interiority in a book and the way you never really can. That's, that's what I end up really loving with books is it does, I remember really specifically the Hunger Games, like that stood out to me about it because I didn't read them. I think I was like, I don't, I don't know. I didn't read them when, like when it was coming out, like the series initially was coming out. And, So I ended up watching the movie first. And then I loved the movie so much.

I was like, I think I'd like the books. So I read the books. And I was just like, oh, you get, you get so much more that like then when I rewatch the movie with Tyler because like the ballad of snakes and songbirds. I'm not a hyper Hunger Games fan, clearly. When that was coming out, I rewatched the movie with him. And I remember being like, there's so much missing. Like you don't know all the things she's stressed out about.

And like, this is why she's acting that way. I was like, oh, yeah. Like, you just get that huge benefit of just like being way closer to the character's mind. And you're like the way I think of books that are a little bit different too. And it's like, this is maybe not fair to movies or TV because I think we do, especially if you're like watching it kind of like bringing something to it. But like books really do require the reader to be like co-creating it with the author. Like you're reading what the author says, but you're reading what the author says,

but you're playing it in your mind. And like, that's why everybody gets mad when they, you know, put a certain person in as the role for a TV or film adaptation. That's not who I pictured because, like, you have such a specific, like, it lives in you in a different way. Where you're just presented with something where you're like, this is it. But like with the book, you're bringing your own part to it to some degree too. Yeah. That part has tripped me out before, especially, especially if I've ever had edibles and I'm reading. Every now and then, like, I'm so aware that what's in my head isn't what the author had in their head.

Like, there's no way that the actual, like, the events, the feelings that described, like, all of that, technically the same. But it trips me out that, like, the visual in the author's head is not the visual in my head. And then it's not for tons of other people. And there was a book, gosh, what is it? Why can't? I'm thinking of ending things. That kind of like references that part because like it's a very like kind of dense psychological thought experiment-esque book. That kind of like steps outside of it.

Because it's kind of kind of epistolary to you. It's kind of being told to you a little bit. And the main character talks about like I am an. I imagine my high school when I'm reading this because like high, that is the image that stuck in my mind is high school. Totally. And so then like, but then when I was reading it, I was having the experience that it was taking place in my high school.

Yeah. And I'm like, that's happening for everyone. It's so trippy. Isn't that crazy? It really is crazy. Also, I love that you are able to take an edible and read. Like I. Oh, totally.

I cannot. I'm like purely visual medium when I got a little bit high watching the office. Oscar's. Oh my gosh, you were alone. I had a full meltdown about Conan O'Brien's jacket coming to a perfect bee. And I was like, the white of his shirt is like a separate shirt and they're all shapes. And my friend who was watching with him was like, what happened? Oh, that's amazing. What is this? I will say like for me, it really, really, as long as my dogs aren't annoying me, which is true whether I guess I've had an edible or not. Normally I can get into it.

And so then my funny experience, I'm like looking back at it. Like I'm going to be able to like grab the book immediately. But one time Tyler was traveling for work and I'd had my edible and I was reading and I was in bed. But I was reading almost surely dead by Amina Oktar. And it got to a point though where like, because it has some scary, it just has scary supernatural elements. So it's like the easiest way to say it. Yeah. Yes. And there was like a scene where she was just like describing everything. So in depth that like I realized I was like I need to stop reading this right now because there's

also like 1130 at night. And I was like I'm actually a little creeped out by the darkness of the hallway right now. So that's the only time it's like failed me. But normally, normally I can. But I'm not having like I'm not having enough of a dose of what you just said. Like I technically am microdosing. It's like five milligram five to five. Like. sure cb and whatever but i've i've had the moments where i am like i think that jacket is made out of separate pieces of whatever all put together and then yeah then i just need to be watching tv totally kate would it shock you to know that that was after a five too i am shocked go ahead that's amazing the reason i was saying it like that is recently so i always if anyone wants a

20% off code to CBDMD, let me know. But I always buy from them and I have for years. And like, it's legal in Indiana. So if anyone's listening to this and was like, oh, my God, Kate. It's legal. Yes. So I'd been using that forever. And then we had, I don't know if it happened anywhere else, but in Indianapolis,

we started having tons of USPS packages not processed for a while. So I ran out. So I had to go to like a random CBD store here. And this dude was like, yeah, like we really, we got these really cool 200 milligram brownies. Like you can split them into two. And I was like, two. Yeah. And I'm like, so like you've had 100 milligrams.

He's like, yeah. And he was like, I just don't get anxious as much. It probably just like makes me so high. I fall asleep. And I'm like, well, I guess that's not what I'm going for either, though. I would be like, or make me so high I would fall asleep for the next. year. 30 days.

Like that would be like one of those where you just sleep forever. So I recently had that experience and I was like, damn, maybe I'm like micro-microdosing. But that's hilarious that you're like, that was five, Kate. Yeah. I had not. It might have been a stronger five since mine is Delta and yours might be real. It might, it probably was. And I also multiple things.

Like I don't do that very often. And so it like maybe hit harder. But it was, that was. That was special. My friend was just like, you need to get it together. And I was like, the shirts are different. Like, I don't know. It was like a whole moment.

Dude, they were, they were just boring to me, which I think they are every year. They're not, they're not like the fun award show necessarily. This year was particularly boring, I would say. And also, like, do the men get unlimited time to talk? Is that what we're doing now? That's what Adrian Brody says. Okay, cool. He's like, I've been here before.

I'm like, then you should know what to do. Right. And he also, like, didn't even say, like, he kind of gestured at some sort of, like, solidarity thing. But like, honestly, whatever. I have heard better speeches out of like, smart card, you know? Like, we did not need the five, the almost six minute speech. No. No.

And it was mostly about himself. Like, just a little bit weird. Did you see a real pain? I did see a real pain. Yeah. I watched that, like, actually the day before the Academy Awards. I liked it too. I watched it, like, three or four days.

before it and I was like so he kept telling me about it and how good it was and I really I really did enjoy it like a lot of a lot of like angles on mental health and grief yeah in like a slice of life type movie I agree I liked it a lot too I thought it was beautifully shot I thought the performances were really good in particular Kieran Fulkin of course but also Jesse Eisenberg was great and I also like found both of them have this kind of frenetic energy that I found really like a anxiety producing and I just kept being like that poor tour guide like must just be like Jesus, Jesus, France. You're so right.

That poor man. Yeah. What's amazing is that as you were about, you found it so and then you said anxiety producing. I was about to say relatable. Oh. I almost said it at the same time as you too. And I was like, that would have been hilarious if I just went ahead and said it.

I was the end of the spectrum there. I was just like, you need to stop vibrating at this like intense. I get a little more similar to Jesse if I'm not medicated. I don't know if he is. I know that he also actually has OCD in real life and he talks about it. When I was watching it, I was texting Sagi, and I was like, okay, what does it mean that this is just reminding me of me and Tyler? I was like, I am so Jesse. And Tyler is also, he's very much.

I'm giving their actor's names, but whatever, Kieran's character. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, oh my gosh. Like, even down to the, he wouldn't care that I said it, but even down to the, like, very vibrant with other people. And then once he's alone, you're like, you don't understand how depressed he can get. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was just, like, texting soggy.

I was like, this just reminds me of Tyler and I traveling together. I mean, I get it. And I think it's like, it's not that I'm not an anxious person either. I think I go in the opposite direction, though. Like I often try to like when I'm feeling anxious, I'll either try to like go on a long walk to like get it out or like I kind of like try to like physiologically like slow my body down in the hopes that like my mental processes will follow. So being two men on the screen who are just kind of like this, I was like no, no, no. It's doing it. It is some high strong energy. Totally. Yeah. I liked it more. Did you see the Brutalist? That's where all of this was kind of headed. back to it. I didn't want to watch it. The Vertalist, no. And I've heard

what I've heard is that the first half is great and then the second half is not quite as, and I've heard it's somehow I feel like Adrian Brody's six minute speech was also a nod to how long that movie is. That's what I've been seeing paired up together. It hasn't made me want to watch

it. Yeah. It had an intermission in theaters. It's so long. I'm just, it's not my subject matter. No, no, no, no. And I have just so many other movies I wish showed up there, but that's okay. I know, I know. Challenger's, it's fine.

Challenger's, monkey man, you know, whatever. Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to bring us back to the writing of it all for a minute, as much as I love talking about just about everything with you. So where are you with your project right now? Do you want to like share an update? Yeah. So I guess how to even really. So I'm at like 60,000, 65,000 words, I think.

So there's stuff there. And it's kind of nice because I do notice that like, there's already less in my head that's like, oh, you don't know how to do this when I do sit. Because I'm like, well, I have been doing it. So that part has helped a lot without trying to give away too much of my story. I have like my main character who knows that this reality. TV star's daughter killed her friends when they were in college, but she didn't have proof. So she just kind of had to move on and let it go because they're a massively wealthy family. So then a few years later, she's working as a journalist who writes a column that kind of is snarky and makes fun of celebrities. Anonymously, she writes it anonymously. And this reality TV star's daughter, Kaya,

she has like never had any bad press ever like she just doesn't have bad press moments and she has like two in a row and so then they reach out to the column and they're like we would love for you to do a profile on us because they think it will make them look cool and like they can take a joke and like it's okay like everything's fine so she agrees to do it and goes there um but secretly is going to see if she can finally find some proof or figure something out um and so So I finally at this point have like her storyline, like her childhood being really good friends with her friend who dies in college. I have like that built out now. And then I have like the lore of the reality family built out.

And so now it's I have to write the face off part essentially, which I'm not even writing. I think it will, it'll go in a different, and the book will go in a different order than what I'm writing. But it's kind of like that other third of like now these people's like stuff clashes even more, essentially. So that's what I have left. I finally got some like sticky note index card type ones. Because I do know that I'm going to want to weave the past and present together.

and there were areas that where it was obvious, like that this was how, that was how I was going to do like these two chapters, but I don't know all of them. So I need to like see it. Now I feel like I'm to the point where I want to like see all of it and can move it around. And then that might help me write the rest of it as well. Yeah, for sure. So that was going to be one of my questions. Like if we're talking about things that we're doing that aren't sitting down in writing, like do you know what you're going to write next? Is that part of your process when you're thinking about writing or are you kind of discover it as you go or like how are you?

Normally. So like I know it's yeah, I'm trying to think through because what I haven't written is isn't like how the story will come out. I know the people there have been authors recently on the podcast who talk about like the tent pull method or so like approaching it like oh I know these major things. And so that's like, that's what I know at this point. So I haven't written my midpoint because it's going to happen when they're together and I haven't written that part yet. But I know what my midpoint is. And then I'm not entirely sure how they're going to defeat the bad guy like in the true like very climactic ending part. but I know like who it is and like what they're up against. So then lately, typically when I go to write then like I'm thinking like what is the next thing I need to get to? And so like what kind of scenes do I need to have to keep like emotionally and externally getting there is what I'm doing at the moment. Smart. That's super smart. That's great. And like I think a lot of that work. is kind of done. I mean, some of that work is done on the page, but like, I'm sure some of it is

done in mind and like jotting things out. I think so too. Yeah. And like you're talking about the sticky notes. I did that with the lady upstairs. I actually got a great piece of advice, which I might have shared with you before I mentioned again in grad school. This was like, you know, we'd have a whole conversation about grad school for writers to an episode. But I got this great piece of craft advice from my advisor, really practical. One of the few like truly practical pieces of craft advice. I got out of grad school, which was solve your conflicts in, like, order of least important to most important. And that really helped me clearly for the third act, figure out how it needs to hit, where it's like, okay, we've had this little thing going on, but it's like kind of the least

important. So it'll get solved first. We've had this thing going on where it's more the emotional arc. It'll get solved next. And then like the ultimate reveal of like what's happened here will be, should be the last thing. And like, so that's the, that's a way to like do those kind of tent tent poles and scaffolding that I think, I don't even know that like save the cat necessarily said, but like I think that is true in terms of like reader satisfaction is like you're starting to get people answers, but you want to hold the big ones for the last, you know? Yes. Yeah. I like that a lot. Yeah. What, what about your new idea? So I am putting aside an idea that I struggled with for the last year and a half and I hope that I come back to it. There are pieces of that book that

I'm still like very invested in. But I was also tired of like banging my head against it for a while and other things happen. But so I have a new idea that I'm going to share pieces of, but maybe not all of online, although I'm having to talk to you about it all of. But it's going to be kind of, I don't know that I would say more domestic, but like it definitely is sort of like has a, I'm kind of obsessed with gray gardens. Do you know gray gardens? Yes. Yes. So it's going to have a great garden. I mean, I haven't recently, but yes. Kind of a gray gardensy feel of like this mother and daughter living together in this house that's like sort of crumbling around them. Also shades of one of my all time favorite books, which is we have always lived in the castle by Shirley Jackson, which if you have

And it's like just like this great Gothic novel, almost even no novella. It's like either a really short novel or a long novella and it's just like perfect. And years before there's been a tragedy in the house that's been unsolved. And it's kind of a John Bonnet-esque Ramsey's crime of like a little pageant girl who was murdered in the house. And it's never been solved. And they're still living in the house where it happened. And the house is kind of crumbling around them. Like at one point they had let a plumber in to work on something years after the girl died.

But he like took pictures of the house and sold it to TMZ. So like they're not fixing anything else anymore. So it's just kind of like dissolving around them in this really intense way. And it's just kind of these like two women who have created this sort of like female horrorscape paradise. Like pink carpet, pink silk on the walls. there's this like life size, life size, but for a child doll that looks exactly like the girl who was murdered and they like talk to her and incorporate her in the household and she will in fact have a POV in the book. And at some point our main characters, a half brother is going to come stay with

him after he has done time in prison. And part of why he's been in prison is part of the mystery. And he comes in and he kind of interrupts what's been going on in the house and like leads to secrets and things coming out and like sets off a chain reaction of different things. So I'm calling it John Bonnet Ramsey meets we have always lived in the castle. And if somebody steals that idea, I will find you. And we'll hunt you down. And so that's, so I'm very much still in the ideating and getting to know my characters phase. So I have a lot of ideas about some of those tent poles and where things may go.

And I've written a little bit of it. I wrote a first draft of a chapter that is going to get like totally changed because I've decided to do something else with it, which is sort of my process. Like I feel like I'll start on something and I'll be like the kernel of this is good and I do a version of it. And then my brain is like, that's not it. This is it. And it's like, but I kind of have to go through those different things for it to like start to a place where I'm like, yep, that's it. Where do we go next and kind of build on it from there? And so for me, when I'm writing but not writing in terms of like not putting down words on a page, something that's really helpful is like talking it out, like talking out ideas that I have with different people. How could this function in the book? Like what is this going to do? Why do I have the POV of like a creepy doll? What is that going to do for the book? How will that function? What happens? Why does this happen? And I have a group that I meet with every week and we talk about that, which is with Lane Fargo.

and Wendy Hurd, we kind of like talk about a project at all times. I have a friend from grad school. Shout out to Olivia. And I meet with her pretty regularly and we like talk out what's going on with our books. And I like just sort of even just talking about it and living in it is like really helpful, I think to like getting it. I don't, people who like don't have people that they bounce ideas off of for books. I'm like, what's happening? How lonely is that? Like how do you even just lives in your head, I guess? But like for me, there's something about talking about it that like makes it more real and makes me like connect with it better too if that makes sense but yeah that's what I was about to say is like

the real part where like um even when I talk about it I'm like oh yeah I am writing this story and like this world and like when you do when you talk about it like with other people you're like oh I did create that that is a real thing totally and it like starts to like I think the more you talk about it too like you said the more real it feels the more things click into place kind of unexpectedly um I also find that like for a project like this like I'm not really trying to write exactly the John Bonnet Ramsey's story but like as a way to get ideas to kind of pop in my head I've been like researching that crime which is so interesting that like I am two years older than she would have been like I mean than she was um so I

remember like pictures of her in the supermarket and all of that. And like my understanding of the crime, as it turns out is like my cultural understanding of the crime as it turns out is like very different than the facts of the crime as I've discovered since I've been like watching the John Bonae Ramsey most recent documentary and like listening to a podcast. Like I was like for sure that family killed her. They had something to do with it. And they still might have. But like in my research it's been like, oh no. Actually there's like a very valid intruder theory, which almost is never true, but like in this case might have been. And right, yeah.

And so like just different things that may not necessarily lead exactly into the book, but like spark thoughts. Like the house that I'm thinking about that my characters live in, looking at the Ramsey house and how crazy that the layout of that house was, has like, you know, like just different stuff like that. I love those vibes, though. I'm excited to see where it goes. Thank you.

Thank you. you, whatever. Yeah. Another thing that I do, I was going to mention a thing that I do, struggling to write, I am like, I love somebody who I feel like you can always learn more about the world and about writing. And so something that I do when I'm trying to stay in touch with my creativity or struggling to write for various reasons, whether it's because I'm busy or like it's just not flowing. I subscribe to a lot of different like substacks that are about like the craft writing and try to stay in touch with them in that way. So like one, I have like a little list I brought, which is MLO has a great substack. She is the author of If We Were Villains and the

upcoming Hot Wax. And then she had a little novella out that I can't remember what it was called. Great Yard shift. Yeah, that's right. And she has a great newsletter that goes out that has a lot of craft stuff in there that I find really useful to read. Lee Stein has a great one about kind of the state of publishing. It's more kind of like the business of publishing, but it's like really useful. Countercraft by Lincoln Mitchell has some great stuff in there too. Carmen Maria Machado's substack, always top notch. Sometimes it's about craft and sometimes it's not, but I just like her in the writer. And then there's one that I love what she does here because I don't see a lot of people talk about it. But Nina Schuyler in stunning sentences deconstructs why sentences.

make us feel the way they do. And it is so, like, useful. It's very academic, but, like, she'll, like, point out she'll be, like, the way that the sentence mirrors itself makes you feel content. And, like, that's why. And, like, it's so useful on, like, a prose level that I, like, could swim in the archives of that one forever. That sounds fun because this is one of those random things that, like, I loved syntax and

diagramming sentences in. high school like it was my jam it all made sense to me it was like fun to see the way you can use like a positive like all of it like I was such a nerd about that so this sounds so intriguing it's gonna be right up your alley then because that's exactly what she's doing is she's like deconstructing like on a grammatical level why a sentence like works in the way that it does and it's just something that I'm like damn like I wish I wish I had spent more time like grad school doing this, being like, yeah, sentences affect somebody.

And like that is really cool. Yeah. There is also, when you were saying that, it was reminding me, there's a podcast I listen to every now and then the shit no one tells you about writing. They have just like all kinds of cool discussions. Sometimes like it is like when they're, sometimes it's hard for me to get into their episodes, but like they're really good.

Yeah. Totally. I, I've listened to them too and I like them too. And I like podcasts are another place I go to. when I kind of want to engage. Like I love the you're wrong about podcast, which is basically like a deep dive onto different topics.

And then I also struggle sometimes with podcasts because I feel like a lot of writing is like listening to the voice in your head. And if I'm filling that with a podcaster, I start to struggle to connect with my own voice. And so it's like a delicate balance of like, I always want to be listening to a podcast. And yet if I am, I stop writing.

Yes. I know what you mean. Yeah, I definitely couldn't listen. while writing. No. But like even like I'll just have it on in the background sometimes when I'm just like really about my day and it's like right. Okay, Holly.

Get comfortable with yourself again, you know. That whole part. I saw a TikTok a couple days ago that was like I think I'm one podcast subscription away from never having to have here a single one of my own thoughts. I was like, thank you to talk. Fuck you. I identify with this. Yes.

I know. I was like this is not cool. I feel like that. I know what you mean. You do have to kind of like have quiet times for your brain to totally connect things. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I feel like it'd be really meta to end this on a note of us saying everyone shouldn't listen to podcasts all the time. But thank you guys for listening to this first episode. And if you have, if you're a writer, if you want to write and you have things that help you stay close to writing, DM us about it. We might talk about it. Or ideas for like topics that you want to. Or ideas for topics.

Yep. Yeah. For sure. So everyone can go back to their own thoughts now.