Bookwild - Kristen L. Berry's We Don't Talk About Carol: 6 Missing Black Girls, Intergenerational Family Drama and Messy Motherhood

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

This week, I got to talk with Kristen L. Berry about her debut mystery thriller We Don't Talk About Carol! We dive into Kristen's writing process, the inspiration for the story, and how one person can still make little differences against systemic oppressors.We Don't Talk About Carol SynopsisA dedicated journalist unearths a generations-old family secret—and a connection to a string of missing girls that hits way too close to home—in this gripping debut novel.In the wake of her grandmother's passing, Sydney Singleton finds a hidden photograph of a little girl who looks more like Sydney than her own sister, or mother. She soon discovers the mystery girl in the photograph is her aunt, Carol, who was one of six local North Carolina Black girls to go missing in the 1960s. For the last several decades, not a soul has talked about Carol or what really happened to her. With her grandmother gone and Sydney looking to start a family of her own, she is determined to unravel the truth behind her long-lost aunt and the sinister silence surrounding her.Unfortunately, this is familiar territory for Sydney. Several years prior, working the crime beat as a journalist on the case of another missing girl, her obsession eventually led to a psychotic break. And now, in the suffocating grip of fertility treatments and a marriage that's beginning to crumble, Sydney’s relentless pursuit might just lead her down the same path of destruction. As she delves deeper into Carol's fate, her own troubled past resurfaces, clawing its way to the surface with a vengeance. The web of secrets and lies entangling her family leaves Sydney questioning everything—her fixation on the missing girls, her future as a mom, and everyone she’s come to trust.Delving into family, community, secrets, and motherhood, We Don’t Talk About Carol is a gripping and deeply emotional story about overcoming the rotten roots of your family tree—and what we’ll do for those we love. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk with Kristen Elberry about her debut mystery thriller. We Don't Talk About Carol. I was so sucked into this book. I could not put it down. I had to a few times, and I hated every moment that I wasn't reading it. And it just consumed my mind. The characters feel so real. The family dynamics are so complicated.

And the mystery is intergenerational. Here is what it's about. In the wake of her grandmother's passing, Sidney Singleton finds a hidden photograph of a little girl who looks more like Sydney than her own sister or mother. She soon discovers the mystery girl in the photograph is her Aunt Carol, who was one of six local North Carolina black girls to go missing in the 1960s. For the last several decades,

not a soul has talked about Carol or what really happened to her. With her grandmother gone and Sydney looking to start a family of her own, She's determined to unravel the truth behind her long-lost aunt and the sinister silence surrounding her. Unfortunately, this is familiar territory for Sydney. Several years prior, working the crime beat as a journalist on the case of another missing girl, her obsession eventually led to a psychotic break. And now, in the suffocating grip of fertility treatments and a marriage that's beginning to crumble, Sydney's relentless pursuit might just lead her down the same path of destruction.

As she delves deeper into Carol's fate, her own. trouble with past resurfaces, clawing its way to the surface with a vengeance. The web of secrets and lies entangling her family leaves Sydney questioning everything. Her fixation on the missing girls, her future as a mom, and everyone she's come to trust. Delving into family, community, secrets, and motherhood, we don't talk about Carol, is a gripping and deeply emotional story about overcoming the rotten roots of your family tree and what we'll do for those we love. If you've been listening for a while, you know this story is like right up my alley. I just loved it.

I cannot believe this is her debut. I was so immersed in the writing and in the characters. It is just fantastic. And the ending, what I'm going to say is DM me when you read this and we can talk about that ending. That being said, let's hear from Kristen. I am here with Kristen L. Berry this week. And I am so excited to talk about, we don't talk about Carol, which is actually kind of funny when you say it. But thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

It's an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, Kate. Yeah. So I started to see this book like, I don't know, a few weeks ago, because I feel like I read it recently. Yeah. Three or four weeks ago, I think you're doing an event with Lauren Lang Brown is where I think I saw it because I love Society of Lies. same um and then i saw her post about it and i was like oh i need to check this one out so i like immediately requested on net galley got it and was like oh my gosh i can read this immediately and i

just burned through it i loved it so much so yay oh that's music to my ears i'm sure it's oh it's just so good um but before we get into the book i do always want to like get to know you a little bit um just before we dive in so when did you know that you want to do you want to be you want to wanted to be an author or what was your like, I think I want to write fiction moment? Ooh, it's so funny. I, um, I've been listening to a lot of author interviews lately in particular. And I get jealous of the people who have a very specific memory. Um, for me, it's like asking me to describe the experience of taking my first steps.

Oh, yeah. It's like it's been so ingrained in me for so long. I mean, I've, um, I've been a voracious reader my entire life. I have these really fond memories of going to libraries and to Barnes & Noble with my mom and my younger sister and, you know, just reading all the books I could, I could and from a very young age looking to see where my name would be on the fiction shelves. I always just pictured myself being an author. So it's just been a part of my life forever. I think I started to take it more seriously, I guess right after college, I wrote my very first, very first very, very,

bad practice novel. And then like that. Yeah, yeah. It's good. It's like, you know, it was my own personal MFA program was writing that novel. And then took a very long gap before trying to write, trying to write another novel. I practiced writing a lot of short stories. Just getting a lot better at Kraft. And then took a class at the UCLA Extension Program when I was ready to really. give it a little bit more structure, ready to get a little bit more instruction for professional, and then started working on my next novel, which became We Don't Talk About Carol,

in May of 2020, when a lot of us were making lots of pandemic driven decisions about our lives. The one thing for me that was, well, I mean, I'm sure there's more than one, but one of the great, great things I say with quotation marks about the pandemic, was all these books that I have now talked to people about where they're like, this was actually my pandemic book or like I started because I had the time. And I'm like, I mean, I wouldn't wish it on the world, but I'm glad that we got more books. It was one of those moments. It definitely forced a reset, I think, for a lot of us.

And so it was just a time to kind of reevaluate, reprioritize, especially because it was such a dark time, you know, what really matters to us. So it also forced me to think like, okay, these short stories I'm working on are great, but I'm sort of half-heartedly submitting them to literary magazines. You know, like my true passion is novels. It's what I tend to read the most. So it just felt like, okay, if you're going to do it, now is a wonderful time to start. Yeah, I think it really was.

It sounds like, so you kind of took a class right before you started writing this book. What did that inform your writing process or kind of like, what has been your writing process? Do you plot? Do you go off vibes? What does it look like? Excellent question. So I actually wound, I took this class several years before I started working on this book, but it was very beneficial in that some of the, some of my classmates have become my longest standing writing group partners. Yes. So that writing group read every chapter as I wrote, we don't talk about Carol and gave me feedback in real time, which was super helpful. So this book was fully panced. If you want to go with the plotter versus. this pantser style. So definitely wrote this by the seat of my pants. I had no idea how it was going to end, honestly, for a very long time. It actually caught me by surprise. And it's a great ending,

but it would catch me by surprise too. Thank you. Yeah, so I basically had the initial idea of the premise. I knew I wanted it to center on a woman who discovered that she had an honest. who went missing back in the 1960s, that her family never talked about her, that she was one of six black girls to go missing from the same neighborhood, and that in addition to that mystery, she has, you know, an already kind of full and complicated life that she's trying to navigate with her marriage and there, her and her husband's IVF journey. And then a lot of things that she's trying to unpack from her own childhood. So I knew I wanted all those elements to be in, in play, but I didn't quite know how they were all going to intersect and play out throughout

the rest of the novel until I kind of, I like the analogy that's not, it's definitely not something I've coined. I don't know which author did, but the idea of writing is though you're driving in fog and you can only see, you know, a few feet in front of your car. That's sort of the writing process I took with, uh, with, we don't talk about Carol. Yeah. I've heard that where people talk about like, you can drive from New York to California only seeing like 100 feet ahead of you. And it is such a good analogy because it does like,

especially like that coast to coast analogy is like, oh, that's a really long way. And like really does help you visualize that if you just get started on something like you probably, you can do it if you want to. Yeah, exactly. I think it makes it less daunting to be honest. I think if I thought that I needed to have the book fully plotted out in advance, it might have felt like a scary thing to to begin. But the idea of just like, hey, let's start. You have an idea for how the story opens, you know? Yeah.

Why don't you just try writing that and see where it takes you? And then it was also fun because, you know, as a big reader, I was able to ask myself, like, okay, if I were reading this book, what would be the most interesting or satisfying thing that could happen next? Yes. And that's sort of like how all the different aspects of the plot unfolded from that question. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

You mentioned, like, the core idea was, like, this woman who kind of discovers she had family that she didn't know about and that care went missing along with, well, along with five other black girls, if there are six in total. Yes. And your dedication said for the tens of thousands of black Americans reported missing every year and for the thousands more who never stopped looking. So obviously that was a really big inspiration. point as well for the story. Did that that kind of shape, I'm assuming that probably shaped a lot of the plot and like how you chose to handle it? It did.

Definitely. Yeah, it was, I've listened to lots of true crime podcasts over the years. I was listening to lots of them during my socially distanced pandemic walks. And it was during one of those podcasts that I learned about the discrepancies when it comes to missing people of color in America that, you know, when it comes to black Americans, for example, our cases are less likely to be covered by the press. Our cases are less likely to be solved. And, you know, thinking about that as a black woman, you know, when I think about these stats, I'm thinking about myself. I'm thinking about my sisters and thinking about my

my nephews and niece. And so it felt very personal. So I thought that there was an interesting opportunity to maybe shed light on that issue through kind of a suspenseful story. Yeah. Because I think, I don't know, fiction to me is such a great way of gaining empathy for different people in situations and learning about things that you might not have been aware of before. And so I thought there was a really great opportunity to sort of tell that story and to make it personal by tying it back to a missing person in my mind. main character's own life.

I feel like one of the things I kind of noticed, like, as I was reading, and I remember being, like, 20 years old, and, like, watching Mad Men. And that was the moment that I realized that, like, the education system did not make me aware of how recent, like, both civil rights, the civil rights movement, but also still just, like, Jim Grossed out. Like, we were not really talking. about how recent it is and that like there are people related just like one generation behind them that we're having to I mean fight that fight go through all of the things that were happening

there and you have a couple of moments in the books where you kind of talk about that where like Sydney is also realizing like I can't believe it was actually this bad this recent but then she's kind of like but also I can because it's not like things are great either and and so I I feel like it made it more it was another reading experience where I was like yes this is like so much more recent than we actually think it is to have someone whose aunt went missing at that time and then really no one cared about this trend of black girls going missing so I really I really found that was effective and kind of to your point it does make it more personal and it does make you realize like we're not we're not far away from it no absolutely I mean

And so this work is completely fictional, except there were a few pieces that were very much inspired by sort of my own family story, just that my mom, for example, helped to desegregate her school in North Carolina growing up. And I also asked for her permission to use. It's an aside, sort of an anecdote in the story, but there is the moment when I believe Barbara

is talking about a memory of being at a lunch, a segregated lunch counter at Raleigh in North Carolina where the part of the book takes place and going up to the lunch counter not realizing, not understanding, being too young to realize what segregation is and Jim Crow laws are and being told in a very disparaging manner that she's not welcome there.

That entire aside, an anecdote was something that my mom experienced herself. And it is, it gives me chills even talking about it, that, you know, it's just one generation, Beyond that. And then yes, though, how it's also still very much something that's present, you know, maybe in different ways today. I mean, I wrote this, you know, much of the book at the, you know, beginning of 20, the summer of 2020. So as, you know, we were, you know, having a racial justice reckoning in America related to the murders of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor and so many others. So it was very, these things were very top of mind for me as I wrote. Yeah. I have. had it all just kind of came together, but I had this strange confluence of I was listening to matriarch by Tina Knowles. And then I requested this book and got it.

So it was really interesting that I was like listening to an autobi art or a memoir where like that's, that was what stood out to me the most when I even got to the end of it is like the generation before her like still like segregated, still being treated so horribly her parents are. and then there's her and then her daughter is Beyonce. It's like, those are two such different things to have on either side. But like, I mean, obviously it's great that her daughter's Beyonce

and was able to become who Beyonce is at this point, but I was listening to that at the same time that I was reading this. And I was like, wow, some of these are like hugely similar parallels as well because they were in South, or sorry, in Texas, not North Carolina. Yeah. But where else was I going with that?

Oh. But it is interesting. I do. Yeah. I think it is those things really contextual. Those examples of specific examples are people that you are familiar with. It just really contextualizes the issue and the recency, you know? Yeah.

Totally. Some of these pieces of history that are not that historical. Right. Still so steeped in the present in so many ways. Yes. That other thing that was happening was. the plantation in Louisiana was burning down. Oh, yeah. That was the other fascinating thing that was happening while I was reading this.

And so there was this line in the book that she's like talking about the houses in the area of Raleigh that they are. And it says like color blocked, you're saying, I guess, not she. Color blocked siding and dark pictures gave them a modern look, but something about the columns and porches whispered hauntingly of plantation homes, which like I saw was a beautiful sentence in general. But it was like, I like read that and then like got on threads and all of a sudden it's like it won't stop burning. And I was like, oh my goodness. All of this is just coming together. But I feel like that that was another example was it kind of like important to you to like even show that like passing stuff like that is going to be kind of like triggering your generational

trauma still. Definitely. Definitely. And it was also, you know, the Sydney. the main character. She lives in L.A. A lot of these things that happened to Kurt and Raleigh, it's a place that is, you know, it's a really important part of her family's history, but it's not a place that she has a really strong familiarity with or her own personal connections to. And that's also familiar for me. My mom was born and raised in Raleigh. I visited Raleigh in the past growing up, but I also did a little research trip while I was writing the book. And it's just also interesting to notice some of those

differences, I think, if you are not from a place that was steeped in some of those histories. So, you know, just driving through and seeing some of these historical places and the placards and understanding, you know, what occurred there was really, you know, does stir up some difficult memories and feelings. And so I did want to weave that into the book where I could. If you're an author, chances are high that you just want to spend your time writing. and maybe reading, not thinking about social media, what to create, and what to post. And the good news is, I have a solution for you. With just three hours of in-person filming, you can receive 90 days or three months' worth

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you also so their family dynamic is very complex between Sydney and her sister but also Sydney and her mom and also all three of them and like every variation is um it's complicated um and there's I really appreciated because like I love thrillers and mystery but like I also just love when there's like character work too so like when both of them come together I love it and I felt like we really got to understand like why Sydney reacted the way she did, why Sasha reacted the way she did. But something they grew up with a lot. There was, without getting a disclosure, so there was a lot of emotional and sometimes physical turmoil in their house. And they were very much taught the belief or whatever, the, I don't know, like platitude of like what happens in this family, stays in this family.

And that was like something that was very directly said to me growing up as well. And it does make it, it makes it hard for you to connect with people when you are stressed out about something that's happening. But it was also making me as I was reading it. And I think you kind of bring that point back near the end is like the added, sorry, my dog just jumped up behind me and I didn't know she was in here. I was like, I thought I was alone in here. the fact that like in the situation of a black family especially in that time period it's also that

like you can't trust that telling people is going to do anything or it might end up hurting all of you because they're just not going to receive it as well so did that kind of come to you as you were writing it or like how how did that part kind of come about no definitely i mean i also grew up in a what happens in this house stays in this house family i think it's a very generational sort of mentality, you know. I think a lot of us now are more of a, you know, we embrace therapy and, you know, being vulnerable and speaking about the things that have, you know,

the difficult experience we've had. But I was really interested in exploring that dynamic. But I think in writing this, it also, in writing the novel, it also gave me a chance to think about why that, phrase sort of in family mantra came about and why it's so prevalent and how in a situation where you know if you are for example living in the gym crow south and you know maybe the the thing that you your strongest currency is your reputation your family's reputation your family's good name how damaging it could be for certain things to come out about your family and that it can

be sort of a double-edged sword, though, of like, yes, it protects you, your family's reputation, but it can also make it really difficult for you as individuals to move on or to process the things you've gone through and to really deal with them. And so I was really interested in that idea of, you know, if you want to break generational curses, first you have to be willing to acknowledge them. Yeah. And so that was something that, yeah, it was very interested in exploring in the book. Yeah. There's, I kind of touched on a little bit earlier, but there's also basically Sydney experienced her childhood and Sasha experienced her childhood. And we're mostly in Sydney's mind at first, obviously. So that's like the version that we are getting as well. But I thought it was cool how

you also ended up showing like you still can have very different experiences growing up in the same house and then the way that they were able to kind of talk to each other later in life to kind of reconcile that was cool and then the relationship with their mom is very difficult too so was there anything about like sister and mother dynamics that was like stood out to you yeah definitely i mean i I know you've mentioned really enjoying suspenseful stories that also do a lot of character work. I mean, I think family dramas are also like suspense is my favorite genre probably, but I think family drama is a close second. And so, yeah, I really am interested in the fact that two people can grow up in the same house,

having the same experiences, and have completely different takeaways from those experiences and see them through two very different lenses. And also just sort of, you know, you know, I think sibling relationships can be very challenging because, yes, you may share, you know, DNA and certain experiences, but you can be completely different people who look at the world in in totally different ways, but there's sort of an expectation of closeness. And it's not a given, especially once you grow up and leave the house, it's not a given that you will maintain, you know, a strong relationship. And if you have some of those, you know, difficult

things that you haven't worked through or challenged you haven't worked through, things like that, it can really make it hard to have a healthy relationship as adults. And it's also very difficult, I think, to step out of old roles. So if you grew up as an older sibling and, you know, you always thought that you knew best. And I mean, I'm very much older sister energy. So I have an older sister. I definitely bring that to my own sibling relationship. It can be difficult to step outside of that and think, okay, when this person is now an adult,

they have the ability to make their own decisions with their lives. They can look at the world how they, you know, how they naturally look at it. It's not necessarily wrong or right. So, yeah, I think that that's rife, I think, for lots of opportunities to explore challenges in terms of how that can, you know, you know, make a, make a relationship difficult, but can also make it rewarding if you're able

to navigate your way through that. Yeah. You can gain, like, other people's perspective, which kind of to your point about books, too, like the way books help you have empathy, it's like the same thing. We end up having more empathy the more we learn about Sasha as well and kind of like her perspective. the other thing you were mentioning how you wanted sidney to like be interested in this but also have like a very full life of things going on and boy does she at this point in her life um the other big thing she's tackling is that she is going through IVF treatments she's they've had she and her husband have had trouble getting pregnant and have not just not having it work for them um and so throughout the whole book you the way the amount of things you

tackled about what is scary about motherhood was like I really appreciated you you dive into like even the way that um kind of no matter what even with a supportive partner women tend to take on more even if it's just the fact that your body has to do all of the work um the kind of like fear of losing your freedom or your identity but also she's felt kind of apathetic about it her whole life. She doesn't know how she feels about it. So what was that like just like mining all of that kind of part of her life? Yeah, it's interesting. So Sydney and I are both the same age when I started the book. So we were both in our late 30s when I started writing this. And at that age, I feel like you're being bombarded with questions about whether you're planning on having

children from your friends, from your family, from your doctors. from strangers on social media. Like everyone has a question and an opinion. And I think it can be really tough, especially if you aren't sure how you feel. I think that attitudes are starting to come around when it comes to people who are definitively certain that they don't want to have children.

But I think that it can be difficult if you fall in the gray area where you're not sure where you're still sort of in the place of, oh, if the circumstances are right, And yet, unfortunately, if you have a uterus, your biological clock is ticking. And so if you want to try to have children, you know, yourself without medical intervention or even with medical intervention, you know, you do have limited time. And also, like, at that point, a lot of my friends were either having children or struggling with being parents or struggling to become parents. And so it was very top of mind for me.

But it also seemed very tied to everything that Sydney was going through and sort of all of the unresolved issues that she had with her family. And I was aware that, you know, people with childhood traumas, especially ones that have been unprocessed can can lead to people feeling apathetic about the idea of becoming parents themselves out of like, you know, whether it's a deep-seated fear of perpetuating certain traumas or, or, you know, other things. So I was, I was interested in exploring that. I did feel deeply connected. I always get frustrated if I'm reading a book and suddenly they're able to drop everything to pursue a mystery because I'm like, I have a complicated life. I have thought about that.

Yes. Yes. I'm like, well, who's doing your job? Who's taking your job? Who's taking care of the house. Like, how are you able to just get off and it not be a problem for your life? And so I did think about, okay, well, how can she have this very kind of full life where that's also a bit of the challenge of the story and the suspense of the stories? Like, yes, how can she solve this mystery, but also, like, will she be able to keep her marriage and her job and all these other pieces? Totally. We were watching poker phase last week, actually. which is like a really fun. It's like a 70s mystery.

Why done it almost? But we were watching it. And that's what happened. At one point I turned to my husband. I'm like, wait, how is she making money? Because the idea she just like drives around in every new town.

I mean, we know it's fantastical for the sake of this, whatever. Totally. But she just like arrives in different towns where something, some crazy murder has happened. And I'm like, wait a second.

Where's the money coming from? Right. She's not like a gas for. car. Yes. It is like, it's like, that's one of the things you have to suspend your disbelief about so much is that someone could just get obsessed and like not have to do anything else. Totally. So that probably is why she felt, Sidney felt realer because I had answers to those questions.

Another thing you kind of touched on there at the end. I don't know why my allergies are coming for me right now. Because she also kind of gets, there's a point where she talks about how she's scared that she might be all of the worst parts of both parents. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I feel like, I'm sure lots of people feel that way, no matter what the severity of something that happened in their childhood was. But like, was that to kind of, I mean, that ramped up the suspense for me, at least. Was that kind of where you were headed with that? Totally. And I think like when you mentioned to all the different fears that she had around having children, I think that's a common one too, especially if you grew up in an imperfect, you know, upbringing, I think that it's a common fear. And even just as an adult, you know, I think it's, you look at your parents through so many different lenses and you see, you see them more clearly as people. And so of course,

I think it's natural to, you know, hope that maybe you emulate the best in them, but you might also have fears about perpetuating the not great things that they brought to the table as well. And so, yeah, I thought that was an interesting piece to kind of explore too. Yeah, totally. So there's also this point where she is, like, obsessed with kind of figuring this out. and her husband says like if this is such a systemic problem like why do you think you're going to be the one to solve it which is like a really good question but we're all like because we she wants to know the answer like whatever but it's like you still i'm trying not to give anything away but i feel like part of the story too though is like there can be some forward movement if like even just one person cares and was that kind of also

what you wanted to do like thematically. Absolutely. I think because it's a really slippery slope between saying that you can't solve an entire problem and becoming completely empathetic to the problem.

I also appreciate it that she kind of turns it right back to him and is like, well, I love that. She was like, he has this company that is helping you know to black Americans in particular, with becoming more financially literate and secure through a variety of tools.

And so she's like, well, why do you think you could solve the financial literacy program? I loved that part. I had the whole thing, highlight. I was like, yeah, girl, remind him. Remind him, like, why is it okay for you to try to solve these big problems and it's not okay for her? But I think something that was also top of mind for me is, like, in researching for the book, I also learned about organizations like the Black and Missing Foundation, which does, it's a nonprofit that does really incredible work to help people of color, missing people of color and their families kind of help to find justice, help to, you know, put the proper amount of attention on these stories that are often overlooked by traditional press. Yeah.

And so it was really meaningful to me to show that like, no, you can make a difference as an individual. especially when you come together with a community to try and solve a problem. I think that's really powerful. And, you know, otherwise, too, you're just looking at these stats and feeling defeated and depressed. And you could do that or you could try to do something about it, do your part. Yeah, or how small. So I thought that was, yeah, something that I wanted to come across. I was also really interested in exploring, you know, when is it okay to be passionate?

about something and like where's the line between passion and obsession. Our girl Sidney does tow that line quite a bit. But I was wanted to explore that too because, you know, also her husband Malik, you know, she references that he was able to, you know, get really intense when he was building his business and turning their walls into whiteboards. And so why is it okay for him with this one interest? But it's not okay for her to kind of put the same level of, you know, work and passion into solving what happened to these missing girls. Yeah.

I'm not going to lie. There are a few times where I was not a Malik fan, which I am overall, but there are a few times where I was like, get away from him. Because I was feeling the same way. I was like, he gets to have this full life, though. Like, why does she get questioned? I like that. I like for every character to be complicated. You know, like, they did do that so well.

Because there were. There were times I was pretty frustrated with Sasha, too, where I'm like, why can't you, like, see this perspective? But then when you learn about her, you're like, okay, that's why she's, like, coping this way. Yeah. And you just, we all have our weird coping strategies. We do. And I think that it also came back to some lesson that I learned in a creative writing class at some point, just about the idea that, In fiction and in life, there are few true heroes and few true villains.

And so I really like that idea of kind of complicating every character. Because most villains don't see themselves as villains, for example. So I think it's like interesting just to think about, you know, having these people be multifaceted as well. Yeah. I think that's something cool. it works so well in like thriller, suspense, mystery or whatever, because sometimes it is like you're so into one perspective. And then like knowing that there's extra information, you're like, oh, okay. So I feel like I like it in like mysteries kind of probably for that reason. It probably

fits the genre well too. I agree. I completely agree. Because it also, you're kind of questioning everybody in a mystery too. And so I think like when they are a little bit complicated, you know, you're like, Oh, this person could go in a lot of different directions. Yeah. Just makes it for a more interesting read. It does. The setting, though, felt like very, like, atmospheric and immersive as well. I know you said your mom grew up in Raleigh or at least in North Carolina.

Yeah. Did you grow up there ever at all? Or was it kind of like just that research trip and talking to your mom? No, it was really, I grew up in right outside of Detroit in the suburbs of Detroit. Oh, okay. And I do live in Los Angeles now. So the Los Angeles scenes are easy to write. Yes.

Yes. And I was in the Bay Area for a while, which is also kind of has a cameo appearance in the book. But I never lived in Raleigh. So it was really just a lot of Google Maps and, you know, Street View research. And then the research trip, which is really helpful to kind of really feel, you know, what, what Raleigh feels like, especially if you're someone who is not from there. And so, you know, even just from like a climate perspective and weather perspective, if you, you know, live in Southern California, things are pretty mild, pretty dry. And so it's just sort of

interesting to just kind of bring the experience of being in that, that location to life from an outsider's perspective. Yeah. That makes sense. I do love that all the cities, though, we're words you said that. I was like, oh, these are all the places that we go. It made it slightly easier to write, especially the, particularly the places that I've lived in before. I was like, oh, yeah, I can talk about Detroit in the fall. Absolutely. Let's go. I wanted to interrupt this episode really quickly. I have a goal of monetizing Book Wild, but I would love to do it without having to have ads in the podcast. And one way that I can do that is through my Patreon community. For those who don't know, Patreon is a community platform that allows creators

to share what they're creating behind a paywall. And so that means exclusive content or early releases. The book Wild Patreon has two tiers. The first tier is the bookish tier. And at that tier, you get all of the episodes out a day early and you get access to our private community chat where we can talk about anything book-related or TV shows or movies. The second tier is the Book Wilde tier, and it includes everything from the first tier, but also Book Wild's Backlist Book Club. So this year, I've been wanting to also still read more backlist, even though I read plenty of arcs. And Book Wilde's Backlist Book Club felt like the perfect way to do that. We meet on Sundays. We are international right now. So Sundays are the best way

to do it. And we meet on Zoom and we all pick a book and we talk about it. And then we talk about everything else we read during the month. And then we pick another book for the next month. So it's been so much fun so far. And we'd love to have you join the book club. So if you'd like to support the book Wild podcast, you can go to the Patreon link and the show notes and you can sign up for whichever to your interest you. And if you're looking for a free way to support the show, if you can like and review it on whichever platform you listen to, that helps so much. It was like dawning on me because my, like we went to Detroit a few times growing up basically. So I live in Indiana, so it's really close.

Yeah. But I was like very young. And it was like I could look across and see Canada. I was like, wait, I was like Detroit, is that close to Canada? So I was like pulling it. This is one of those books where I was like learning about maps essentially or like what's, what's actually located. And I was like, oh, okay, cool.

I didn't realize that for some reason. I always pictured it like very landlocks. Yeah, it always tripped me out as a child. I definitely remember going to the riverfront in Detroit and, you know, looking across. And you can read some of the signs on the buildings and that's a different country. It just was such a. And at the time, too, it was really easy to go back and forth over the border. And so, yeah, you could just decide on a whim to go to a different country.

I just loved that. It's very unusual in America, obviously, in other parts of the world. They're like, yeah, it's very, what are you talking about? Why is that unique? But America's so huge that. I know their countries are more like state sizes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I'm one of my friends and co-host Gare. He lives in upstate New York. So he's also, but he's right by Canada. And I think I always forget, too, how many states are like right by Canada. Like, it's, it's, it's, it's, everything up there. I always just think of like New York and I'm like, no, it's, it's everything. There are a lot of them. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Totally. Well, I, I just loved it so much. I'm sure I'm sure that is apparent. And so for everyone, especially who really loves that same combo, I know I've had conversations with people of like character depth and plot still happening. You guys need to go read this one. Do you read? Do you read? Do you have any books that you've read recently that you loved? I am a huge reader. And yes, I think, yeah.

You read was not the right way to ask you. I know you're going with it. I got it. I got it. Yes, I read a lot. I read pretty widely, though this year I've been really focused on other 2025 debuts. Yeah. Which has been really lovely because I'm connecting with them too as people. And so there's something I nerd out on getting to know the people who have. have written books I've really love. So some of the ones that I've really enjoyed recently from my, from my fellow debut class in 2025, Julie Chan is dead.

And I know you spoke with Leanne Zang. And I also love her. She's a delightful human. Yeah, very cool. Loved that book. Oh, it's so good. So good. So good.

Yeah, I hope it gets adapted into something. Because I think it would make for great. It's so interesting. adaptation. It's so entertaining. I've heard people describe it as sort of yellow face meets bunny. And I think that really hits it. Yeah. Yeah, I love that one. I also really love bearer of bad news by Elizabeth Dini. It's wonderful. It's about a woman. She's like a down on her look, Las Vegas hairstylist. And she winds up taking a job to be someone's bearer of bad news. So to go track down this person's siftor to deliver some bad news.

And so it's like it's wonderful combination of being a fun romp. But it also has a lot of kind of character depth. And I don't want to give anything away. But it has, yeah, a lot like a deeper meaning as well. Yeah. So, yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed that. Yes, really, really fun. That was great.

And then Tilt by Emma Patti. I don't know if you're feeling about that one. I just started seeing that everywhere. Oh, my gosh. I read it. Excellent. It's about a woman. She's nine months pregnant in shopping for a crib and IKEA in Portland, Oregon, when the big

earthquake hits. And she has to try to walk home through a destroyed city. So it's fascinating. It's sort of a survival story, but then she's also really thinking about her marriage, her feelings about motherhood and also her feelings

about, I think she's a failed playwright essentially, the main character is a failed playwright. And so she's also kind of struggling with when do you give up your art for real, you know, for quote, unquote real life responsibilities. So it's, it's fascinating. Such a great read. I loved that one.

That sounds really good. I was coincidentally, and she thinks you guys have the same agent, but I was recording with Hallie Sutton last night. And I, because I mentioned your book, she's like, wait, I think we have the same agent. I was like, oh, nice. So she was saying, she's like, I was telling her the whole story that I saw Lauren Ling Brown's post. And she was like, Are you kidding me? She's like, well, I have to go because she lives like right there. So I think she'll be there too. But we were just talking. We did a whole episode on like creativity versus like commerce or like the commercial part of it. So we were kind of just talking about that. So now I'm going to have to text her and be like, now we need to read this book. You should read it. It's also just really fascinating, very propulsive, very immersive.

As somebody who lives, you know, I live in California also very quick. And it was very terrifying to make me think a lot about my, my emergency plan. I get that. That's like I, I've lived in Indiana my whole life. And I had never seen like a, I don't really watch like weather tragedy. I can't think of why I'm trying to think of a different word. But when we saw Twisters last summer, I was like, oh, this is actually terrifying. And I'm just so used to like getting a tornado watch and being like, oh, it's like 10 miles away.

Right. I've just never seen one in person. But when I was sitting in the theater, I was like, oh, this is terrifying. Terrifying. Terrifying. I also grew up in the Midwest. So, yeah. I was also familiar with, yeah, you know, I've seen the sky turn weird colors.

And you're like, oh, okay, that's, why is it green? Yes. Oh, my gosh. I had this other hilarious thing happen because basically I posted a story of me that's just like, taking stuff into the post office. But are, you grew up of them too. I'm sure they do the practice or like the they practice the storm the tornado siren. Yes. Every other Friday, I think. And so I basically in my story, I'm like ignore the tornado

siren. Of course, it started right now. And I had people who like had never lived near tornadoes responding. They're like, you're just walking around while that's going on. And I'm like, can't see like the sky behind me. Like it's beautiful outside. So like people didn't know that we had to trial them and everyone's like why were you bringing the merch then you didn't have to i was like oh my gosh just a drill think of those things when you don't like live near them no it's so true i honestly forgot about that every every time it happens my dog has howl with it so it is just so much noise on fridays here a surround sound experience yes it really is um well everyone needs to go read we don't talk about Carol and where can people follow you to stay up today?

Sure. I am at Kristen L. Berry on all the platforms that I'm on. So that's really Instagram, TikTok, a substack. And my website is also Kristenelberry.com. That's easy. I tried, you know, I really tried to brand that. Totally. Well, I will put those links in the show notes.

And thank you so much for talking with me today. It's been a real pleasure. you ask very excellent questions. Okay, I have to say. It's very clear that you are a true reader. So this was Joy. Yeah, I had so much fun.