Bookwild - Layne Fargo's The Favorites: Wuthering Heights Meets Figure Skating

Episode Date: January 14, 2025

This week, Halley Sutton, Steph Lauer and I talk with Layne Fargo about her new book The Favorites! We dive into her inspiration for the book, trips Halley and Layne took to research the book, how she used character names from Wuthering Heights in The Favorites, and her lifelong love for figure skating!The Favorites SynopsisShe might not have a famous name, funding, or her family’s support, but Katarina Shaw has always known that she was destined to become an Olympic skater. When she meets Heath Rocha, a lonely kid stuck in the foster care system, their instant connection makes them a formidable duo on the ice. Clinging to skating—and each other—to escape their turbulent lives, Kat and Heath go from childhood sweethearts to champion ice dancers, captivating the world with their scorching chemistry, rebellious style, and rollercoaster relationship. Until a shocking incident at the Olympic Games brings their partnership to a sudden end.As the ten-year anniversary of their final skate approaches, an unauthorized documentary reignites the public obsession with Shaw and Rocha, claiming to uncover the "real story" through interviews with their closest friends and fiercest rivals. Kat wants nothing to do with the documentary. But she can't stand the thought of someone else defining her legacy either. So, after a decade of silence, she's telling her story: from the childhood tragedies that created her all-consuming bond with Heath to the clash of desires that tore them apart. Sensational rumors have haunted their every step for years, but the truth may be even more shocking than the headlines.Inspired by the powerful love and hate that fuel Emily Bronte’s classic, Wuthering Heights, The Favorites is an exhilarating dance between passion, ambition, and what it truly means to win. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

I am with a bunch of lovely ladies today. I'm with Lane Fargo, Steph Lauer, and Hallie Sutton. And we're going to talk about Lane Fargo's The Favorite. But I was thinking about this a little bit before we started. Ooh, there it is. Look at her. She's so pretty. I know, like sometimes when I'm listening to a podcast,

and it's like, I don't know everybody's voices from the get-go. So it takes me a second. So if you can kind of just be like, hey, I'm Hallie. like just like introduce with your voices so people know who's talking good idea this is hallie good idea this is lane and i just wrote and i just held up a copy of the favorites that if you're listening to this on audio you'll have no idea what just happened yeah this is step and i just gasped when she held up the copy of the favorites there we go so now that everyone knows who's here and kind of what they sound like. So Steph and I happened to read our arcs of the favorites about at the same time.

She finished a little bit before me. And so we were like obsessively talking about it while we were reading. And prior to that, there's been, Hallie has mentioned it multiple times as well. And we all just loved it so much that I thought we just all needed to talk about it. And it would just be fun that way. So we're a group discussion today. Yeah, I have to say, Hallie has been with this book since the very beginning. She's one of my critique partners. And so she has been through all the phases of this project. Like, it's changed so many times.

I'm sure she can tell you. She's been there for all the nervous breakdowns. Yeah, just the whole thing. So thank you, Hallie. Of course. I mean, it has been such a pleasure to be on this journey with you, Lane, to see, I mean, really in the backseat, like, you know, you're, but see all the different iterations of this book. I mean, I remember distinctly, and we've talked about this before, you and I went on a very romantic date at Boucher Khan, which was

our first time meeting in person. Lane and I met through pitch wars where she was my pitch wars mentor and really helped me like change and figure out how to write my first book, The Lady Upstairs and like has been hugely influential to my career. But I remember being on this like glorious date with you in Houston before COVID was even a whisper in the air. And you were telling me about your idea to one day write this like ice dancing thriller and it was going to be romantic and it was going to be, you know, edgy and about athleticism and about like ambition. And it was just, and I remember being like, wow. And you described that you wanted a cover that had gold sequins on it, which we now have. And so that was like my very first hearing about that.

Then we watched, you sent me a couple of videos of this is Scott Moyer and Tessa Virtue. And there is one that I still watch when I need a little perk me up. And then watching you kind of put this together through COVID was such a journey. And that was one of the questions that I wanted to ask you about because I know I got to see it. But can you tell us a little bit about the journey of writing the favorites because it was a process. It was a process. I was to say we were in Dallas, not Houston before the Texans come for us. You're absolutely right.

And I should have known that because we were like right across from the grassy knoll was like where we were. It was crazy. But it was like truly the most, I've been married for almost like 20 years and it was truly the most romantic night of my life. Like we had to be. And until we went to a spa together and got a couple's massage in Chicago a few years later, which we also did.

My partner needs to slap it up. You're going to steal this girl. So this book, yeah, I first had the idea during the 2018 Winter Olympics when everyone was all obsessed with Tessa Virtue and Scott Moyer and their incredible chemistry. I think we were all like, what's going on there? They say they're just friends. I don't know if I buy it. And so I became very obsessed with not them specifically so much, but like finding out what was behind that dynamic. And I really wanted to write, I thought, a thriller about ice dancers.

and I pitched it to my editor at the time, and she was not into it. She was like sports books don't sell, do something else. So I really tried to do something else. I actually ended up turning down a book deal with that publisher because I pitched a project to them. And it's long story, but it turned out well in the end. So I had no publisher. I tried writing the thriller version of this. I got through a whole like zero draft of it.

And it just wasn't working. Like I thought it would. It was like two rival teams that trained together and share a coach and their coach is murdered right before the Olympics. And sorry, if you can hear my dog digging in his bed. He wants to be part of this. I was okay. And but it just didn't, it felt like off.

It felt kind of like soulless or something. I don't know. So I kept trying to write that and write other projects and going back and forth and back and forth. The other project that I was working on at the time was like a modern Gothic about a woman with chronic pain who was trapped in a house, which was super fun to write during COVID. Great idea. Me. So I was really struggling with that one.

And one day I was like, well, I'm going to reread Wuthering Heights because that's one of my favorite Gothic novels. I loved it as a teenager. Maybe it'll spark something. And so I reread that book. And then I started thinking, now for context, this was like December 2021. So we were like pretty deep in the pandemic at that point. We were all like pretty unhinged. And I had this idea of like,

what if I combined Withering Heights and like the Gothic vibes with the ice dancing project? And then I thought I lost my mind. And Hallie was no one I went to actually. We had, I remember having this FaceTime with her where I was like, what if Wuthering Heights but on ice? And she was like, that's a great idea. And I was like, is it or have my family lost my mind? And she kept encouraging me.

So I have all these notes from that time. where I am like telling myself, I'm like brainstorming, I'm like, I'm not writing this book, this like Wuthering Heights on Ice book, but if I was, here's how it would go. And like after a few weeks of that, finally, I'm like, okay, I guess I'm already in this book. I think if Hallie had not given me that encouragement at that time, I probably would have dropped it because it really felt insane to me. I was like, no one will want to read this. This is so unhinged. Well, that is so cool that, like, Hallie feels like you hope. so much with her debut. And then now it feels like she kind of helped you, like, believe in this

idea that we all love now. Yeah. You can do without you, Halley. Wow. That's so sweet. And I feel the exact same way about you. And I also remember a little backscenes look. You came out to, I mean, something that I love so much about the favorites is how ambitious and sprawling and wide a scope this book is that we're going through various different Olympics. We're on different continents, we're in different countries. And I, you know, had such a fun memory of you coming out to California because various parts of the book are set in California. And we did like a location scouting trip. And so we like went, we found this like obscure part of L.A. that Laine wanted to like set the book in. And I like, I'm just curious, too, if you want to talk it all about like,

kind of like the world building and like how large that was because it's such a big part of the book. Yeah. This was the first book where I really let my name. go to town on doing research, which I have a library science background. Like, that's something I really love to do, but I always told myself I was procrastinating and I needed to get back to writing. What I found is the more research I do and the more detail I find, the more it sparks ideas for me. So finding these real places, I mean, obviously the book is fictional, but everything that happens, like all the skating competitions they go to, all the places they go to, they're all real. It's like that competition happened on that date and that city in real life. You can go look it up.

I even found the like time that the event took place if I if I could. I had a bunch of like interrelated databases and notion to figure all this out. It was super nerdy. But so much of it I couldn't go in person because it was COVID. So they go to I mean they're in you know Russia, Japan, Paris. I mean, all these places. And so I was relying a lot on research, Google Maps, things like that. So it was so great to get to go to L.A. and actually see some things in person, especially, Hal, you gave me the whole idea for that. There's a big sequence of chapters that sat at the Hotel Del Coronado in San Diego. And he were the one who told me about, like, that they have ice rink there every winter and everything. So, yeah, we went there and I took a lot of pictures. We walked.

down and like found the sexiest places for cat and heath to like almost but not quite kiss we did we got in this like rickety old so the hotel del coronado is this old beautiful definitely haunted hotel down in san diego right on the beach and it's got this like crazy victorian vibe and every year they do um like they have an ice skating rink basically right on the beach almost like it's just like right across the like walk away from it and so i remember lane was looking for a place and i had suggested that because i had just stayed there um for for work for my day job. And so we got into this like rickety old elevator. Again, this podcast might just be like times Lane and I almost made out, which is like, I guess like more than you think. And I remember we're in the elevator and Lane's like, oh my God, wouldn't it be great of like

Heath and Katter in this elevator together and they like almost kiss me like backs her up against it, not quite. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know of you in the elevator, like, grabbing one of the bars to, like, see if it would... I love the attention to detail. That is so cool. It really, it takes place in a lot of places, is almost not the plot, but almost remind me of spy thrillers, because you end up, like, all over the place. The globe-treading adventure, but, like, just hoardiness and mess. Just angst, just angst in competition.

Well, so it sounds like, for what I'm hearing, you knew you wanted to do an ice, ice dance story. And then Wuthering Heights was kind of what helped you, like, find the context of, like, the plot that you really liked. So how did you go about picking, like, which themes from Wuthering Heights were going to, work well in the story that you were wanting to tell. Yeah. I mean, really all came down to the characters. I thought a lot about, like, which characters I wanted to include and what they would look like.

I mean, Catherine and Heathcliff are obvious, but then you've got the Linton siblings who I turned into Bella and Garrett Lynn, who are their main rivals and who are, I would say, in my book, a much bigger part of the story than in the original. And then probably the most fun I had was when I came up with my Nelly Dean character, because in the original, Nellie Dean is telling most of the story. And I don't think Nellie Dean is a reliable narrator. I'm always like, Nellie is a messy bitch who loves drama. She is like, she doesn't like Kathy and Heathcliff.

And so she's like saying all this stuff about them. We don't know exactly what's true and what's not. And so making that character like mean gay gossip blogger. was as soon as I came up with that, I was like, yes, okay, I understand what I'm doing with this. So that was so much fun, like, kind of figuring out the little nods to it, because I wanted to use, like, some of the signposts and the story, but then kind of go my own way with it and have a lot of, like, have it so that somebody who either has never read Wuthering Heights or who hates Wuthering Heights, and there are a lot of them, including my agent, who's also

Halle's agent, hates Wuthering Heights, but really enjoyed this book. So I wanted it to do something you could enjoy totally separate from the original. But if you do know the original, there's tons of little Easter eggs, like all the character names, even some of the programs they do. Like, there's just little stuff in there for you to find if you are familiar. Yeah. Well, yeah, sorry, this is Halligan. Well, even the way that you posit the frame story, right? Because you have like the two parts of the favorites, which is like the frame story of a documentary and then Kat, like, I'm going to tell her own story. And, like, I'm going to tell her own story. And like that, I think, was such an elegant nod till, as you put at Nelly Dean, like the way that Wuthering Heights is itself a story within a story.

And also makes me think of I Tanya and all the sports documentaries that have come out and like the way that people craft stories around particularly like messy women. Yeah, I wanted it to be like a bunch of different voices and not just cat telling her story or like one person or two people telling stories about her and Heath as it is in the original. all, but I wanted that chorus of voices so the reader can sort of decide. Because, you know, Kat's biased as well towards herself. And there's some truth in some of the things that the people in the documentary say, even when they're being really harsh towards her, you're kind of like, yeah, they got a point. Yes, totally. One of the kind of, one of the differences is I feel like Kat is a lot more ambitious and maybe

she's even more well-rounded than like Kathy is. in Wuthering Heights. But particularly, I loved this when it was the sentence that said, everyone thinks Heath Roco was my first love. He wasn't. My first love was figure skating. And I love that she has something that she is also just obsessed with in this book. It's not just like his obsession, I guess, too.

And also I have to bring it up because Hallie is on here. It also is giving me challengers vibes. So hardcore. I was like, this is Dozen Day as Care. character. So how did you go about like crafting Cat in all her fieryness? Yeah, I was so

psyched when I saw Challengers because I was like Tashi Duncan is exactly the kind of character that I was trying to write with Kat where she's so single-minded. And I get like people will write these reviews and think pieces about challengers and they're like, what is her motivation? Why does she do these things? And I'm like, she wants to watch

some good fucking tennis. She said it. That's literally it. That's all she wants. Like, how would she be? So, yeah, Cat is, I don't know, I'm always really interested in, like, the sacrifices you have to make as someone who's really ambitious and also maybe wants, like, love and relationships in your life. Like, it's not an easy balance all the time. And I think I'm pretty known at this point for writing unlikable, quote unquote, female characters. So I wanted her to be really uncompromising in that way. and like have it be he's just yeah like he's obsessed with her he's only obsessed with the sport in that

it's something that she likes like if she was into tennis like he would play tennis it's not about the skating for him and just to have her be so straightforward about what she wants and so clear about it even when so many people are telling her she can't do it and also so much of developing and Kat was also developing the two Lynn women, Sheila Lynn, who's the coach and Kat's idol that she grew up watching. And then Sheila's daughter, Bella, who's also incredibly ambitious. And I just really wanted to write this relationship between these two ambitious cutthroat women where they still love each other and respect each other. There's obviously betrayal and drama and all of that stuff, but they're kind of the only two who understand each other and how much they want this thing. but they can't both have the gold medal.

So it's like faked in conflict. I just wanted that friendship to be just as kind of detailed and resonant and everything as the love story was. That was literally my next question because I also thought that was such a complex relationship with them or get to it later. But I also think it's so cool how much the dynamics changed between all of the ensemble in each parts and how like I even felt different ways. the whole time. But when, when, with, so Kat says with Bella, I didn't have to explain. She felt

the exact same ache. And that meant she knew me in a way that Heath, despite all our history, never could. And that was so, it's so cool to have two women, like you're saying, they're equally ambitious. They both want it. But then they also do respect each other because they kind of see themselves in each other. And then they still just have this friendship. I thought that was awesome, I'm having two females like that. Yeah. And I base that a lot on my relationships with other writers because you're just, like, as a writer, we're not in direct competition the way that like Olympic athletes are.

There's only one gold medal every four years or whatever, but you do have to navigate feeling jealous, being friends with someone who's like getting the things that you want in your career and still supporting them, all that stuff. it's really complicated, but I think I know I'm a much stronger writer and better person and happier and all those things for my friendships with other writers. Like we push each other the way that Kat and Bella do, but hopefully with less drama. Yeah. So far, so good.

Totally. I love that. Go for it. I was curious, Steph. Sorry, did I cut you off? Oh, that's okay. You can go. Maybe it'll lead it.

I have like some things I want to talk about, but we're not. like naturally there yet. So I'm kind of like, so obviously Catherine Heathcliff or Catherine Earnshaw is one of the models for for Kat. But I'm curious because I know there are who are some of the like real life

people you drew inspiration from. So I named her after and the book is dedicated to Katarina Vitt, the Germans gaiter from the 80s and 90s. She won the gold medal in the ladies. singles twice in a row. She's a badass. And she was an athlete who like just did not, I don't know,

like, in skating, there's sometimes this expectation that the champions are supposed to be these like pretty princesses and like, you know, spinning around like ballerinas and so polite and so smiley and like all this stuff. And Katerina Vitt didn't really play like that. Like, she was very sexy, very like owned her, her body and her expression of her sexuality. She posed for Playboy. She had an affair with the guy played McGiver, fun fact. She was also just known

for being a hardcore competitor. She kind of tries to deny this in her memoir, but I'm like, I don't know. She would, like, during practice sessions, improvised to other people's music to, like, pull focus from them.

Amazing. And next to the range and just, like, stare down her competition. Yeah, I don't know. I love all the contradictions at the heart of a woman like that. And I just grew up being very obsessed with her in a way that I now realize was super gay, but I didn't know at the time. Happened to the rest of us.

And then the other person that was a huge influence on Kat is Madison Hubble, who's a more recent U.S. ice dancer. She retired after the last Olympics in Beijing. And what I took from her was she, We have never had the sort of like expected skater body type. Like she's muscular and powerful. And earlier in her career, she was afraid that was going to hold her back and make it impossible for her to be competitive. But she found a partner that was a better match for her.

And then like they were both really known for their power and athleticism and sexual tension. And I could go on forever about this pair because they have quite the romantic history too. but Madison especially, like she's just, yeah, again, like such a badass, so powerful, such a great athlete, a great role model for women. And I wanted to express that in Kat as well. That's really interesting that you say this because even as you're describing it, like one of the things I noticed, and I think people that know you from like they never learn is that this has such a thriller pacing. And like it still has like that intrigue.

the what's going to happen like a thriller does. So, and maybe that's just your writing style, but can you talk a little bit about how, like, yes, it's a drama. Maybe it's not really a thriller. But like, if you like thrillers, you're going to like this book. I know there's been some, I've definitely gotten some reviews that people were like, I thought this would be a thriller. And then it wasn't.

What I always say is I never really intended to be a thriller writer. I wrote my first book, Temper is about like drama at a Chicago theater company. And it's very like psychological mind games. And at the time I wrote it, I didn't really know what it was. And then the publisher was like, it's a psychological thriller because that's what was really hot at the time. And so they marketed it that way. And I got a lot of reviews where people are like, this isn't a psychological thriller. I don't know what this is.

And I was like, well, me either. So after that, I was like, okay, I better write an actual thriller. So that was, they never learn. And I've been so, like, it's incredible how much people love that book. I hear from people all the time about it. Like, it's really taken off, like, purely through word of mouth and is still selling well four years after it came out just because people tell their friends about it. And I'm so, so appreciative of that.

But to be honest, and how can back me up here, I had a miserable time writing that book. Like, I hated writing it. And the reason I hated writing it was I just, like, the thriller plotting of, like, needing to have twists and figure out the end and outs of like the crime and the forensics and like all that stuff. I just, that's not how my brain works. Like our other critique partner, Wendy Heard, she had to help me a lot with that because I would like send her something and she's like, uh, Scarlett's going to get caught instantly. You can't do this.

So she helped me figure out the crime and kind of like the various murders and whatever and kind of try and make that more airtight. But I just like, like, she'd be like, you have to do this and this and this and research this. And I'm like, I don't want to. I just want drama. I just want like the interpersonal stuff and like all the eyes. Yeah. And so when I was trying to figure out what to write next, I realized like, I don't think I really am a thriller writer. I like things that are that are pacey and propulsive and all of that.

But I'm so much more interested in the psychological stakes and relationships and things like that. So I think this is more the direction I'm going to go in and still use all those tricks and tips I learned as the thriller writer to keep the pages turning. But yeah, I don't ever want to have to think about like twists and police work or anything like that again. Like, no, thank you. I very completely constructed this, so like the police would not really be so much a part of it. Yes. That makes me think about too how like as a reader as well, like obviously I read a lot of thrillers, but then kind of like voice will carry me through will make it feel fast-paced. Like if I like really love the like characters world that I'm living in. So it's like sometimes every now and then like

just an action plot works for me. But at the same time like I will read a voice just because I love like a really voicy character. Like and it'll carry me through all kinds of stuff that's not a thriller. So it is it is like there are just so many different ways to like write and be attracted to different books. Yeah. When you talk about voice Kate, I felt like the favorites had like my favorite parts of the thriller because like I don't necessarily need the police stuff or the bloody stuff or whatever like I want the is it isn't it like what's going to happen and there's definitely what's going to happen because you're like will they won't they I don't know it was great so I felt like it had like that like sweet spot X factor I don't know that like that like

kind of meets it yeah you put this like ticking clock of like we know something bad habit. We know that there's, I mean, even just the idea of setting up a documentary tells us that there's something that's like we're reading towards. And like, I think that goes a long way towards, including all your other things, which is like you do write such pacey books and you have such great command of voice that just keeps you more, more, more. I mean, I read the favorites, which is a brick of a book, right? And like, I also want you to share how long it was originally because I know it was at one point. But I mean, I took it with me to Egypt when I, I'm seeing stuff every day that's commanding my attention.

And I was having a wonderful time. And then also every evening I was like, yes, I can get back to the favorites. And I read it like a day and a half, you know. Nice. Yeah, it is long. It is so much longer than, I think it, I think we got it down to like 114,000 words. But it was way longer than that at one point. And I cut all sorts of stuff.

And just, yeah, I had a lot to say about this, I guess. And it just span a large period of time. So it was like, what do I include and do I not include? Right. Yeah, because you need it too. And kind of when you were talking about the stakes, like there's the will they won't leave their relationship. But then it's also like this reminder that like women feel their expiration date, like early

in their 20s is something. It really dives into too. And so that's like a, that's definitely a big thing that's motivating cat. But there's also a sentence at one point where she's like, I want to. wanted so much skill and fame and money that we'd never have to worry about anything ever again. And I thought that was kind of interesting too because obviously in Wuthering Heights, Catherine is wealthy. But I think another theme you kind of were getting into in this case, like she and Heath both kind of were lower class than everyone that they wanted to compete with.

And did you kind of want to include that in your like, in her character ambition that like, she's also had to worry about stuff all the time and like this is a way for her to like get out of that place. So in the original Wuthering Heights, actually the Earnshaws are more like middle class really. Like they're land owners.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the perception is that they're wealthy because there's so much more privileged than Heathcliff. Yeah, you're right. Linton's are there like the really like richy rich, like old money and there's so much conflict for Catherine in the original. She has

many fewer choices at that time that she's basically choosing between like love or kind of security and social acceptance because her family is sort of amassed like their parents or dad and her brother's an alcoholic and all this stuff so yeah i definitely wanted to get the kind of class consciousness in there especially because skating is such an elite and expensive sport so you kind of have to i mean not always there's always exceptions right but like Like in general, people who make it far in the sport, they have support from their family. They need to be either like kind of like upper middle class to be able to afford all the training and the travel and the equipment and all of that stuff.

And so it also tends to be an incredibly white sport. It's, yeah, like if you watch competitions, it is not very diverse. It's getting a little bit better. But not as much as I'd like to see. And a lot of that is, it's just like the, it's like the, it's like the, the. socioeconomic issues and systemic racism and all that stuff, like you just see it in this sport. Yeah. That was also reminding me, and I know we've had conversations about this, but when I was researching this last night, I didn't know how many movie adaptations have been made.

And I did not realize that even amongst all of them, we only have one where Heathcliff is black or brown. I did not realize that we had this many white Heathcliff. I know you and I talked about it with this emerald fennel casting and I was like, what is happening right now? Like, it is crazy that we've just whitewashed the story for this long. Yeah, because in the original, it's not clear what ethnicity is. Like, he doesn't know. He's an orphan. And so that's what I wanted to do in the favorites as well.

Like, he doesn't know what his ethnicity is, but he's not white. And growing up in a small town in the Midwest. And then in this very white sport, like, he's ostracized for that in various ways. subtle and not so subtle. But yeah, the casting is wild to me. And unfortunately, that one movie adaptation with the black actor James Housen playing Heathcliff, he's great. The cast is great. I don't love that adaptation. It's like very dourer. I watched it once and I was like, I'm so depressed. It's dark, but it has this kind of like wit at the center of it. I don't think Brown to get enough credit for. So yeah. And then when Emerald Fennell was doing

her version, I was like, finally we'll have like a, maybe like a fun kind of campy with her high. Yeah. And then she cast a tall Australian white guy. So, um, I'm pissed. I'm just, I'm, I'm confused. I'm like, I did and I just did not expect her to continue that tradition. But here we are. he's not on Heathcliff anyway like I'll die on my hell. Who is who is your favorite Heathcliff that portrayed him and then Heathcliff and Kathy and then like if you were casting the Emerald Fennell movie who would you have picked? Those are good questions. So my favorite Heathcliff, just because I love this performance, I don't think he's like

cast correctly, but the Timothy Dalton version from the 70s is probably my favorite because even though he is like a handsome white man, they all were at that point, like playing this character. He plays Heathcliff, like, he knows he's hot and he's going to make it everyone's problem. Like when he comes back from his mysterious three years away, he's just like, I fucking everyone in the vicinity. And like just being a really, yeah, I don't know. Like I love how much fun he's having. There's a scene where he and Kathy get in like an argument in the stable and he like, an argument in the stable. erotically smears mud all over her.

Like, it's so extra. I really... I don't know who my favorite Kathy is. I grew up watching the Juliet Benoche-Rath-Fines one, and I do like her portrayal of Kathy. And as far as casting the Emerald Fennell one,

like, Dev Patel is right there. Like, I don't understand. That's so much picturing, Stephanie. Yeah, and I would always say, like, Florence Pugh would be the most incredible Kathy. like she's got that fire.

She would just be, yeah, I don't know. Kathy has a very much of the future. Mm-hmm. I love that. Now I'm trying to pretend we're living. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Oh, I just said I'm watching it in my head and love me. Yeah.

Me too. I was just like, I just like got this far away a look of like, oh, what is, you know, can we live in a world in which that one happens? And it's like deeply R-rated? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I thought, I would have thought,

Debt Patel was like maybe a little too sweet to be Heathcliff until I saw a monkey man and then I was like, oh no, he's got it. Oh my gosh. I have loved that movie so much. Is in the top five of the year. Yeah. And of all time, maybe probably too. I don't know. But you did mention Heath kind of goes away for Heathcliff and the, and the fluttering heights book goes away for a little while.

And then he comes back and like you're saying, he's a little bit angry and he's on a rampage. We have a similar thing happened with Heath. where he disappears for like three years and then all of a sudden nope I can't go there this is the spoiler section okay well we'll pick this up later I mean I don't think the fact that he goes away like it would be weird if I had a Wuthering Heights adaptation where there wasn't that right well I guess here I'll I'll say this and if I just need to move it I marked it um so I can move it to the end too but where I was headed with it is I loved that sentence when he comes back and And Kat is shocked and it ends with his love for me.

Hadn't been motivation enough to reach his full potential, his hatred, though. That made him capable of anything. So I just wanted to hear about the way, because you do it with multiple characters, that really thin line between love and hate and the different ways we treat each other through all that. Yeah, I mean, it's just intensity, right? Like intensity of emotion. It's either like, I love you so much.

I'll never let you go. or I hate you so much, I'm going to destroy you. And that's what Wuthering Heights is all about. That really is. He comes back was one of the first things I wrote, and I wrote it like a bunch of different ways. That was kind of like my way into the book at first. It felt so dramatic to me. Like, he's such a, like the way he looks at her in that scene.

Yes. You're awful, but you're so hot. Can I read one about? Speaking of intensity, maybe that's the best for you to use because I was almost thinking like brutal, but in a good way, was when you wrote, Sheila looked like she'd already won, like she had the gold medal around her neck and blade firmly planted on the still twitching corpse of her competition. And I was just like, I could see it. It almost seemed documentaryish to me, like so real. But also I'm like, damn, she can go there in the best way.

because even in that one sentence, I knew exactly what the attitude was and what was happening. And so I just like, so maybe it speaks to like, that's how you write, you like to write intensely, maybe. Yeah, and that's just the kind of women that I like to write. I don't know. Like, is a bisexual who's very attracted to women who could kill me? Like, I was trying to put that in my books. Like that's your new bio. Yeah.

Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. Can I ask about the documentary portion? To me, this was one of my favorite. Like, there's so many books right now that have podcast elements and things. And so many of them are done well, but they might be like, wow, that podcast was like 10 seconds long or something. You know, it's like three pages. And this was, it had so many characters in the mix. I'm curious how you were able to, how you chose to.

write it because, like, for example, there's one journalist who has a very short scene. It's an amazing scene, but she's kind of in it throughout. So to me, I kind of had, like, to keep track of a few people. So what was that experience, like writing it, including so many of the characters, even the smaller ones? Yeah, it was, it was a challenge to figure out how many people to include and, like, who to include and when to include them and, like, how much documentary was too much or not enough. Like there was a lot of experimentation there. So I have a playwriting background and I love writing dialogue. In fact, sometimes for temper especially, I guess I did this for they never learned to. I would write a first draft that was basically just dialogue and stage directions. Like that's how

I start out writing a lot of the time. So those parts are really fun to write because I could just focus on the dialogue and I tried really hard to make everyone's voice distinct even in terms of like Veronica, the Russian coach, she doesn't use contractions ever. Or Garrett Lynn does a lot of, he'll like trail off. It'll be like dot, dot, dot this. You know, because he's kind of less forceful in the way that he speaks. Yeah, so I just, and then, you know, Ellis, he's just, the genfotidates all the best lines.

And yeah, I was just sort of experimenting, seeing like what their voice sounded like. And once I felt like I had it, then I just would write all sorts of dialogue and then kind of like pair it back and pair it back until it was like just what was essential. Because I think it was almost like in a documentary you would have people talking for a long time, probably, and then you edit together those the best sound bites. So I was thinking of it that way. Like I would write a lot more and then pare it down until it was just exactly what was needed. That's cool.

You almost wrote it like it was them like you were filming them. and then cut it like almost like editing video. Yeah, that was sort of what it felt like. It was, those parts were a lot faster to write the first draft of in the regular chapter than editing them sometimes took a long time. I can be really obsessive about how things look on the page too. Like, like, I don't want it to like run onto the next line. I did a lot of weird stuff like that with the documentary. Yeah.

It worked. In your mind, like I'm kind of learning like a different. book that I read that had a podcast element. Someone said to me like, oh, don't you think that that piece of the podcast was introducing the next chapter? And I was like, I guess I never thought of it that way. So did you intentionally place it like to introduce something or to wrap things up or how did you play with that? I felt like it was more, I mean, obviously sometimes the documentary is commenting on what's happening or like showing us things that cat can't show us because she was not there or unconscious or yeah um spoilers but it almost feels like like music to me like there's

like a rhythm to it where um where there's like a pause like i want a bigger pause between these two chapters to show time has passed so i'd have a longer documentary portion and like cover like it let me cover a lot of time very quickly. It let me introduce some details about the sport of ice dance that like people need to know, but I didn't want to like info dump. So it was like a voice way to do that. But it was as far as where I put them, it often was, I had kind of a rule that I wouldn't go more than two chapters without having a documentary interstitial, but sometimes there's, they're more often. And it'll be like at moments where things are really exciting. There's lot happening and I'll have like really short chapters from cat and a really short snippet of the

documentary and that just feels like a thriller writer trick to keep the pages turning but it did feel like like the tempo speeding up and then slowing down and yeah yeah that makes awesome um so also I mentioned it a little bit earlier but the there are five parts five correct yeah yeah all of a sudden I was like are there four um but like the dynamics between like everyone in the group kind of shifts pretty drastically between the parts. Was that how you were approaching it? Or like how did you kind of like approach the parts you knew you wanted? Um, the parts shifted a lot. Like I always knew that there would be like the last part is like their last Olympics and I kind of knew there'd be. It was like where there were those big

time gaps. But some of them moved around like where that break actually was. I don't know. I think it was just because I felt like the book was getting so long and I needed a way to organize it for myself, like, at first. Yeah. No, that makes sense. That's why it makes sense. The other thing I was going to mention was, I know Heath and Cat danced or whatever, did their routines to Kate Bush songs, like they loved them growing up. Was that a nod to the fact that Kay Bush has a song called Weathering Heights? Absolutely. That was one of my little fun Easter eggs. I was like, it's too obvious if I put like the actual song Wuthering Heights but I can mention Kate Bush

and on the playlist I have the song that they skate to is under ice which is like another Cape Bush banger so yeah I loved it and you picked so many artists that like spanned their like decades were those like some of your favorites? Yeah some of my favorites

I was like going back to my because a lot of this takes place in the early 2000s I was going back to my like college and grad school era playlists. I did have a couple things that snuck through until copy edits where it was like the wrong Beyonce album because I'd moved that scene. Like I checked it at the time, but then I moved the scene to another year and there were a lot of things to keep track of like that. But yeah, it was like just like music that made me feel something. Like one of their first programs that we see is to Frozen by Madonna, which is one of my very favorite songs in high school and I would just like listen to it

over and over and over again. And it just has, I don't know, it still makes me feel this like swell of emotion. So I was thinking things based on that. That's so cool. If you had to encapsulate the book in a Taylor Swift song, because I know she was an inspiration, which one would you pick? Oh my God. Wait, you asked me this and I gave you an answer and I don't remember what I told you. I can tell you what started coming to mind while I was reading was exile is so similar to their relationship. I just like felt like that was them. And so then when we got to the last time at the end, I was like, oh, okay, there's some Taylor there. Yeah, I think Excel is the one I told you, Hallie, because it's very like love triangle, like drama. And I mean, honestly, the only reason

X-Ileism is not in the book is because it came out after the time that the book is set. Like, that's why it's last time and read because that was, like, historically accurate. Yeah. And they would not have been skating to Taylor's version, but like my playlist has Taylor's version for obvious reasons. Staying safe from the Swifties. Well, and I asked you that for two reasons, because I know that was a big inspiration for you in the book, but also Kate slid into my DMs like a week or so ago and was like, do you think she was writing it to exile?

And I was like, let's find out. I think that that gothic book that I was trying to write before this that I like failed to write, that exile was like in heavy rotation for that one. and is like even more fitting for for that like that one had a true love triangle between stepbrothers and the stepbrothers were by so it was like everyone was yeah that honestly i still want you to write that i know i still want to read this yeah i need to put the stepbrothers in like a different plot that's not so depressing that's what i need to do they were hot they were based on adam driver and riz Ahmed and

and I can read that. I love like the moments that we just have. We all like exhale and we're like, yeah, that sounds like. And we're like, call up Emerald Finnell. Get her to get those two in a room and do something. Okay. Please read your.

Yes, that's true. You're right. Speaking of this, I did notice in your author's notes, acknowledgments at the end, you thanked a film agent. And so I couldn't help but wonder, like, if something's happening here because you said you're maybe sworn to secrecy but I couldn't help but notice. Yeah, I'm sworn to some secrecy. I can tell you more when we're not recording because Hallaghan is more. But it's been optioned and there's a showrunner attached and they're

going to take it out to buyers in the new year. So exciting. Fingers cry. Oh my gosh. That's exciting. That tease up a question that I wanted to ask too, Steph, which is this book has been having so much success. And it has been so fun to see you on this like rise that like every writer dreams of. And this book is so deserving because it's so special. You've had like just so many cool things happen with it. I'm curious if there have been any like highlights that you can tell us about in this process. Oh my God. So many.

It's been so wild because like I said, when I came up with the idea, I felt like I had lost it. and this was such a niche thing that no one would be interested in. But I think, like, I've seen this happen over and over with other writers where you just get fed up and you're like, I'm writing this one for me. And then, like, that's the one that resonates with people because you put so much of yourself into it and it's like authentic and you put all your passion in there. And so, like, yeah, that's what seems to be what's happened with this book. Like, it was, it sold really quickly and like it's sold in, I think we're up to 15 translation deals now. and like it's wild, like beyond anything I would have expected, but probably the two things that are like highlights that I can talk about. So I went over to London a few months ago to see my

UK publisher and they, well, two things happened there that were like life highlights. So first of all, they took me to the Bronte Parsonage Museum to film social media content. And we went on a day when it was closed. So we got like a private tour. They let us go and behind the ropes to film, like showed us all this stuff. I was like trying not to cry. It was like one of those things when I was first writing this, I was like, well, it would be so cool. Maybe I'll sell this and not have enough money to like take a little vacation to England and I could go see the Bronte carcinage because I like an aunt that lives near there and whatever.

And then like to be taken there by my publisher and like private tour like incredible, like way beyond what I ever would have thought. And similarly, they threw this little like influencer. party while I was there and they made an ice sculpture of the book cover. Oh my gosh. It was like, I just couldn't even process it. It was like, you know, as an author, you have all these, these dreams and these things that you hope for and you're like, oh, I want to be a best seller. I want this and with that.

But you don't dream of an ice sculpture of your book. That's so crazy. And then the other one was more recent when they were in the audio book, the producer emailed me to introduce yourself and I wrote back and was like, hey, I'm so excited. I just work with you. It's now the time to mention my delusional author dream that Johnny Weir is the voice of Ellis Dean in the audiobook. And she was like, well, I don't think that's going to happen, but like, we'll try and find

someone who sounds like him. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I was totally joking. I just thought I'd like put it out there and you can find someone who sounds like him and great. And then a few days later, she emails me and she's like, you know what? I'm going to shoot my shot. I'm going to send him like an offer and see what happens. And then he said, yes. And he's Ellis Dean on the audio.

book. It was like, so like if you have delusional dreams, just just save them. Like, why not? You never know what might happen. That's what I wanted to do as well. Just put it out there and you never know. That is an energy to be bringing into 2025 for sure. Yeah. Yes. I mean, the whole world insane right. You want. Delusional. And like if you hadn't mentioned it, they weren't going to ask, you know, like that is something that I've learned from you is like, and there's a difference, I think, sometimes like it's a weird balance you want to be a writer that like your publisher is excited to work with so you don't want to be like too quote unquote difficult which is a box when it gets shoved into all the time but like truly like why not just ask and you did and then Johnny Weir is

doing it. Oh my gosh. So cool. Yeah I was remembering some stuff from the book that I haven't listen to the audio book yet, but last night, I just started like almost crying, laughing because I remembered the part where Ellis reads the like fake, the like fan fiction about Cat and Heath. And I was like, I was saying to my partner, I'm like, I made US Olympian Johnny Weir. But also it's amazing. Yeah, I think it's just like have the delusional dreams, ask for what you want, but don't get like upset if you don't get it. Like that's. I put that out there and then was totally like, like they said they were approaching him. And I wasn't even thinking, like, I thought there was no way in the world he would say yes.

So I was just like, isn't it cool that Johnny Ware, like, knows my book exists? Like, that's incredible. So I was happy with just that. And then, yeah, you never know. Oh, my God. Christine Lakin's so good too. Is she the main narrator? Yeah, she's cat.

For us millennials who watched step by step, she's one of the daughters. I was reading, I was listening to another book by her. I'm like, how do I know this? And then I was like, oh my gosh, because I'm, that's my prime. GIF, baby. Which, Steph, to that point, I was like, the Gen Zers aren't necessarily going to know Johnny Weir, but all of us are just like, Johnny Weir! I know. I don't know because he still does commentary for all the events.

So I feel like, yeah, I've been surprised how many people immediately know who he is, because Sometimes I don't know if I'm in this weird little skating fan bubble. But yeah, he's like a cultural icon. Like not having cable growing up on the weekends in the winter. It was like one of the things that was on all the time. So that that group like the Katerina Witt, the Tanya Harding, the Nancy, like that group, Scott Hamilton. Like those as the announcer, like that's what I think of. The newer ones, I'm like, I'm going to have to look that up.

Lane, did I ever tell you I was Nancy Kerrigan for Halloween? one year as a kid. I was like seven. And I was like, I'm not a figure skater. I'm Nancy Kerrigan. And my mom was like, all right. I love that story. Did you have the bandaged knee or you weren't? I should have. I think honestly, it must have just been that I'd heard her name in the news a lot. So I guess I like just associated like, you know, because I don't even remember like particularly being a fan of hers. But I was just like, I am Nancy Kerrigan. I am not a generic skater. I am this one. I love that. Well, actually with that, that reminds me one of my other questions.

There's, you mentioned, like, razor blades in people's skates. So obviously there's like all the dirty stuff that happens as well when people get super competitive. Did you do any research or is that just because you've been following it for so long? I did a lot of research. So I'm a lifelong skating fan, but I've also been a very casual skating fan. Like I would watch the Olympics and sometimes watch nationals and follow it a little bit. But I didn't know anything about the sort of like behind the scenes like beefs between people of which there are many um and like even the technical aspects of ice dance and all of that i had to do a lot of research to make sure i was getting the details right because it's been so nice to hear from people who are skaters whether

like like it's a hobby or more professionally and i've heard from a lot of them that i did get the details right i was really nervous about it because i tried really hard there's just there's a lot skating books out there where it's more of a backdrop for like romance or another story, which is like totally fine. But I as a lifelong fan wanted to make sure I was getting those details right. And as a librarian, I mean, come on. I just wanted to be right. I mean, I think that's admirable. But yeah, it is, it is cut throat and messy. So I have a couple of spoilery questions. Okay. Are we doing, is it spoiler

spoiler time officially? We're into spoiler time. If you have not read, you can, you could stop and then you could come back. So, oh, that's what I asked earlier, so I'll cut that in. Oh, okay.

So there's a moment at the end where Kat kind of like sees Sheila Lynn as like a very miserable, like shell of a woman essentially. And she realizes like, oh, maybe this isn't who I wanted to model my life after. One, it made me think of the Devil Wears Prada. I was totally imagining like that moment where she's like dressed down and totally different. But did you always want that to be cats like character arc to end in that place kind of? Yeah. First of all, love Devil Wears Prada. I have my, that's all

Miranda Priestley. Yeah, I see it. That's amazing. So as I was writing this book, what I was going through as a writer was kind of trying to figure out what my own definition of success was and finding more satisfaction in the process of writing. And then obviously this book has turned out to be very successful so far, like in all the ways that I could not have expected. but what I was really trying to do as I was writing it was learn that lesson that Kat has to learn, which is like, yeah, winning is great and it's good to strive for something and be ambitious, but it's not going to, like, so the whole inside you, you need to, like, find satisfaction in the process

and in your relationships and, like, things that are real and sustainable. So that was, I don't know if that was my idea from the beginning, but, like, that was sort of what I was going through that ended up being infused into the book. Like, I learned it as cat learned it. That's cool. because the ending line really like I started crying at the end and I was not expecting to cry in this book

but it is the way that she like gets to the point of like happiness being something she can create just like with people around her and the way she lives her life was... I see that with writers and other kinds of artists where it's like you're chasing

you know being a New York Times bestseller getting a movie deal whatever it is and then if you haven't done that inner work or whatever gone to therapy like all that stuff then you're still not happy and it's just you want the next thing and the next thing. So like how do you become happy while you're still striving for things? It doesn't mean giving up your ambition at all.

Yeah. We talk about that all the time in our little like writers coven, which is like the goal post constantly move. Like five years ago, if you'd ask me, my goal would have been like publish a book. And now that that's happened, it like constantly shifts. And you're right, it can just become like an endless chase of external markers that never really, it never ends, you know. Yeah, the hedonistic treadmill or whatever they call it. Yeah. So also, I lost it.

Where did it go? Oh, how did you make the choice to have them living as like a pseudo-thruple type vibe at the end? Because I was so relieved by the end. I could not tell where I was going. I don't know if Heath was going to die. I was like, oh, my gosh, how was this going to go? I thought it was kind of cool the way that it kind of almost made sense for them all to end up that way. So how did you figure that out?

Well, I went through a lot of different iterations. There were versions where people died. I decided ultimately, like I went through versions where Keith died, Heath and Bella died, where like Keith and Bella ended. up together and Cat was alone. And like, the longer I was writing it, I was just like, I really want Cat and Heath to be together. Like, I think other people will too. Like, I just really want that for them. But I don't want it to be this cookie cutter perfect. Like, everything's all fine. So, like, what kind of complications could we have in here? And I ended up

digging a lot into, like, his desire to be a father and Kat's total disinterest in being a mother, which, like, I have no kids and no desire to have kids. And that's always been a big deal for me and something I want to put into the book. So I liked this idea of like he gets what he wants and she gets what she wants, but not exactly, but they're all really happy. Like I've heard it to be kind of bittersweet and complicated and like a queer found family sort of vibe, even though they're all straight. Yeah, I don't know. It just felt right. I've been surprised by some people's responses, actually. Like, some people seem very, like, they can't imagine how Kat could be okay with this situation.

Totally obvious how she could. I know. I'm like, it feels very wholesome to me. Like, they're all this nice family. They're all, like, there for May, the daughter. Cat has, like, a role in her life that she's not a mother, which she never wanted to be. And they all just support each other. I don't know.

It seems nice to me. Plus, what I'm always saying about this is if Kat could forgive, he. for skating with Bella, then she can free of him for sleeping with Bella. Like that's my idea. I'll give her to skating with Bella. She cares so much more about skating than sex. You're right. Yeah, I think it's fine.

I don't know. I liked it. It's a really nice and nuanced. Yeah, like, life happens. And then also, like, as a child free by choice, but also a stepmom, like, thank you for not making an evil stepmom. Like, that was, like, really kind of unusual to see sometimes. Mm-hmm.

So that's nice. Yeah, I was trying to reflect, too, like, I have never wanted children, but the older I've gotten, like, my friends have kids and nieces and nephews, and I still don't know how to, like, handle, like, little kids and babies and stuff. Like, as they get older, I feel like I, like, I love them and I have, like, a relationship with them, but it doesn't make me want kids. It's totally separate things. I wanted them for cat, too, where it's, like, she has this relationship with her, and she's, like, a bad influence, cool aunt. Like that's what I would be. Yeah. I also thought it was of a piece with like Kat's journey, which is sort of accepting that like competition is not going to be the only thing that makes her happy.

And like it shows this kind of like grown up nuanced love of like Heath does want to be a father. And so like I want the person I love to have the things that will make them happy, even if it isn't like my child. You know, like it just shows this kind of way of being like loving somebody, being able to love somebody in such a way. where you want what's best for them, even if it's not necessarily like your picture of yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so much of Heath's journey is learning to even like recognize what he does want because

so much of his life and he has this incredible childhood trauma and really latches on to Kat as his family and like puts all his hopes and dreams and energy into her. And they can't be together in any real way until he figures out who he is and what he likes and what he wants. And part of that is, like, his relationship with Bella, the different sides of him that brings out and, like, their kid together. So, yeah, I don't think, like, he could have been a good partner to Kat without that journey. Well, and it kind of felt, like, true to their relationship, too.

Like, you make, I don't have the exact sentence on this one, but you make a reference to, like, they were never, they weren't married. They weren't whatever. They didn't, they weren't anything. They just, like, live together. and the relationship, I'm sure, morphed a lot as things went on. So it also felt true to them that it wasn't just like, oh, and then they got married, but she was okay with his kid.

Like, even that felt true to them. Yeah, they're like family, but it's not simple. And they're never going to just be, like, they're always going to butt heads. They're always, they're both really intense personalities. And I keep talking about them as, you know, that whole thing about, like, the black cat and golden retriever in a relationship. need one of each. They're both black cats. So like they're all and Bella is too. It's like three black cats. You're right. Is it, was it Garrett? Yeah. Yeah, Garrett's the only golden retriever.

Yeah. Well, that's why we all loves this book so much. I think we might be black cats. I don't think any of us are golden retrievers. I'm a little bit. I'm a little bit. Yeah. I'm a golden retriever who like likes to dig up bones that are dead and be like what are these yeah like that distinction that's amazing um i think those are all my questions kate you had a question that i'm like if this is the spoiler section truly is um lane did you intend us to think that he killed lee or was it truly no no we weren't sure and i was like I don't think she'll pay her even if he did because she hated him too, but I don't know.

No, he just, he like really did dive and overdose. I think it's more like that cat would originally, like that her first instinct would be to be like, what did you do? Yeah. She's kind of troubled by that and like what it says about their relationship. But yeah, I did consider it. But yeah, he didn't, he didn't do anything. He just walked around and was emo in the rain. Yeah, she's just emo.

Like my chemical romance fling. the background. Yeah, exactly. I love one actually with like picking out. That was something that came out in revisions with my editors, picking out the songs that Heath is listening to at various points because he's not someone who's going to like, this is how I'm feeling. Like he's just not, he doesn't have the language. So the music he's listening to is like a real insight into his psyche a lot of time. I did have one other part that was pulled. because like at the end he they're basically when they're in some fight at some point he says like

you had to be a winner and all you care about was winning so I became a winner and she says that's what you think of me and he says that's who you've always been cat and I've always loved you anyway I loved the like they both see each other for who they are really hardcore and that carries through their whole relationship. So it's not like a dynamic you're even keeping in mind as you were writing them. Yeah, I mean, I think like they know each other better than anyone, better than they know themselves in some ways. Certainly he's, like I think he knows Kat so much better than he knows himself through most

of the book. Like he knows what she's thinking and feeling, but he doesn't have a good handle on his own emotions. And Kat just takes for granted that he'll keep following. her and doing what she wants and that's not healthy. I actually had a lot of my partner as a therapist and he recommended some books on like attachment styles and childhood trauma and all this stuff that helped me a lot in developing their dynamic

because they are little trauma babies. So he's an interest. Oh, for sure. Yeah, I'm assuming is her, was she kind of avoidant leaning? Is that where we're doing? Oh, yeah. Very avoidant. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I've been both because I'm spicy like that. We call that well-rounded. Yeah. I've never a little person myself, like, took my partner a long time to get me to, like, accept his love. He's very much the golden retrievers. Yeah, same. I feel you.

Well, obviously we loved it. I'm sure we could talk about it forever and ever and ever, too. but do you and also have any other questions? I have a thing that I noticed and was wondering if there's any more information on is shortly after the election, a lot of us were feeling kind of a certain way. And I noticed a post that from Eulane that said something like maybe your next book is going to be like really ragey. And I was like, ooh, is there like a one sentence like theme that you're thinking? Or is it not even close to being started?

Or because I was like, oh, that is such a light that I needed right at this moment. That's gone through. Hallie will attest that right after the election, I was like, I don't want to think about a man. I don't want to have any men in my books. I'm going to like, like, it was funny because I thought maybe it would make me finally want to write more about Scarlett from they never learned. But instead I was like, I want to think about these terrible men and the bad things they've done. But I've been through. it's still pretty early days with this project.

It's going through a lot of changes that seems to be my process. It's just to think about something a long time before I actually execute it. But it's about a Broadway musical and like several women who are involved in various stages of its development from like the original production

to a revival that's happening in 2020. And ultimately it's going to be about the fear of feminine power, both like how the patriarchy fears it, men fear it but how women fear their own power and like how to embrace that so oh my gosh i'm kind of learning right now so my characters are going to learn it too and we are that sounds amazing yeah i'm super excited for that i can't wait to read it you take me to worlds that i'm like i never thought i was going to be into a book about ice skating or ice standing and i'm like here i am obsessed with it and then

And I'm like, I probably wouldn't pick up a book that takes place in the theater, but I'm going to love it. Like, you know what I mean? I love that you, like, take us into worlds we wouldn't normally go into. Yeah. And we end up loving it there. Yeah. I mean, the favorites is all like a long con to make people obsessed with ice dance. It works.

My TikTok algorithm has ice dance in it now. Lanes in the pocket of big ice. Yes. I also just finished Shiver by Allie Reynolds, and I know Cates read it before, but I, like, saw some parallels with the main characters in that book of, like, the competitive snowboarder drive of like, I'm, I'll hook up with you, but I'm not in a relationship with you. I'm here to, I'm here to snowboard. And I'm like, man, I think I love these kind of characters. So if anyone's looking for a comp, I think that would be like similar characters and relationships. Yeah. I loved Shiver, and that was one I read during the time period where I was trying to figure out how to write this book. And I just remember seeing it and be like, sports books do sell. Like, shut up, editor.

Yeah. Well, and the other thing that reminded me so much of, and so then it was cool, I saw you think Taylor Jenkins reads in your acknowledgments. It so reminded me of Carrie Soto, too, like the just like ruthlessly ambitious does not care. care about people. So all the tennis, she's Tashi Duncan and she's Carrie Soto. Carrie Soto was another one where I was like still trying to work on this book. That came out and I was like, yeah, the fourth book, New York Times bestseller. What I loved about that one, too, and the impact that it had on the favorites was I was really

struggling with like how much kind of ice dance terminology I could use. And I loved the way that Taylor in that book used the tennis terminology. like even when I didn't understand what it was because I don't really follow tennis, it had this poetry and kind of like rhythm to it that added something to the prose. So that sort of reading that gave me permission to like use more of the kind of figure skating specific terminology. Because I was like, well, T.JR did it. Yeah. That's cool.

Because it also reminded me how like when the rising action into the tennis matches would be so intense. tense and then you're in it and all the emotion of everything gets tightened and that was kind of the same thing with this like every time they were like competing the stakes have like become really high again and then the way they're dancing is also like explaining the emotional plot as well so it is cool what you can do with sports we're team sports over here sports ball yeah yeah i don't know if i'm going to read a book about a male MBA player, but maybe you could convince me, but I don't think you would write it. No, I'm like all the sports books by like women. Women. I mean, why are we still allowing men to write books? It's always my question. Great question. There was some op-ed in the New York

Times today that was like, men aren't writing novels anymore and it's a problem. And I was like, is it? I don't know. And like they are, you know. Oh, my very very very. last thing. I know I keep coming up with this stuff. Your cover is beautiful, but I have seen a couple different covers. Like one looks like a lot of, like, it's kind of got like a quote on it on the front with a lot of colored sequins. So like were those just for the arcs or are there going to be different additions? Um, so the cover for the U.S. one is, yeah, like, like that. The other one for the UK. Um, so they did, if you're watching the video, everyone can see behind it. Definitely rainbowy one.

Oh, yeah. That's the main UK cover. And then they did a special edition, advanced reader copy that was covered in sequence. The designer did like four different finishes to make it all shiny. It's insane. And then they did, it was the book box pick for Goldsboro, which is a subscription service in the UK.

And they did like a sequin covered one where it's like, there's sequins on the end papers and sequence sprayed edges. It's like the most sequins that have ever been on a book. it's like all shiny and insane. I want that one. I've been trying to find it. There's only, to my knowledge, 15,000 copies.

Yeah. I signed them all. Some of them only have El Fargo because my hand got tired. My best. Yeah. Some of the international editions are coming out. I know in Brazil they're doing this like holographic cover that's going to be really cool.

Oh my gosh. It's fun to see all the different versions. It's a cover queen. This one's my favorite. I got a lot of him into it. I wanted it to be really sexy, but not like, you know, two romance. And the mask on top. It's gorgeous.

Yeah. I pre-ordered the hardcover, so that's the one I'm getting, right? Yeah. Sweet. And thank you for pre-ordering.