Bookwild - Lucinda Berry’s This is a Safe Space: Writing for Audio and Balancing Trauma and Twists

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

This week, Gare and I talk with THE Lucinda Berry about her new audiobook This Is a Safe Space!  We dive into her inspiration for this story, how writing for audio changes her process, and how she balances twists and trauma.This Is A Safe Space SynopsisJenna, who runs a successful private therapy practice, still struggles with trust issues of her own. She’s made a promise to stop snooping in her husband Colten’s phone, but sometimes she can’t help herself. One night, she discovers a troubling exchange between him and his cousin Bodie, who’s one of his closest friends. A dancer from a bachelor party they both recently attended is threatening Bodie, claiming they crossed a line sexually and that she’ll expose the truth to his family if she doesn’t get what she wants. They don’t know much about this woman, or how far she’s willing to go. But Jenna might.Lexus Chardonnay, the stage name of the dancer from the party, is one you don’t forget. And Jenna’s heard it before—from one of her clients.Kaitlyn is a medical school student who dances on weekends to put herself through school. Jenna’s been her therapist for years, except she hasn’t seen her for three months. Not since Kaitlyn stopped showing up for treatment, without explanation. As Jenna begins to listen back to their past sessions, desperate for answers, a more complicated picture emerges, and she must decide who to trust as her career and her family hang in the balance. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week, Gare and I got to talk with the Lucinda Berry about her new made for audible story. This is a safe space. It is so good. You know how much we love Lucinda here. So we just look like we're falling in love with her the whole episode. So prepare yourself. But this is what it's about. Jenna, who runs a successful private therapy practice, still struggles with trust issues of her own.

She's made a promise to stop snooping in her husband Colton's phone, but sometimes she can't help herself. One night, she discovers a troubling exchange between him and his cousin Bodie, who's one of his closest friends. A dancer from a bachelor party they both recently attended is threatening Bodie, claiming they cross the line sexually and that she'll expose the truth to his family if she doesn't get what she wants. They don't know much about this woman or how far she's willing to go, but Jenna might. Lexis Chardonnay, the stage name of the dancer from the party, is one you don't forget, and Jenna's heard it before from one of her clients. Caitlin is a medical school student who dances on weekends to put herself through school.

Jen has been her therapist for years, except she hasn't seen her for three months. Not since Caitlin stopped showing up for treatment without explanation. As Jenna begins to listen back to their past sessions, desperate for answers, a more complicated picture emerges, and she must decide who, to trust as her career and her family hang in the balance. For audiobook fans, this one is very produced. It has a full cast when you're listening in on the therapy sessions. It really sounds like you're listening to something on a tape. It's super voyeuristic. And Lucinda talks about how that was on purpose and what it's like writing a story with audio specifically in

mind. So let's hear from Lucinda. So this week I am here with Lucinda Berry and Gare. As you all know, there's no way Gare could. I mean, Gare's actually the one who set this up. But if Lucinda's here, so is Gare. So I am super excited. We're going to kind of mostly be talking about this is a safe space. A new audiobook. Is it called an audio novella when it's shorter or is it audiobook? I mean, we still call it an audio book, but it is a novella. So it is a novella. So it's a shorter length. I think the running time is like right around like two and a half, three hours. So it's much shorter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we're going to be kind of talking about that. And then all of our other burning questions for you that I know Gare is just like ready to get into. Yes. I am. I am. I'm calling it an audio book because it was my first audio book. And oh my goodness. Well, now the bar, but see, it's not a regular audio book, right?

So like now your bar is set so high. I know. That's where I was telling him. You know what I mean? It's like you have like celebrity talent doing the voices. It's fully produced. So you have all the sounds. Like we've set your bar for audiobooks very high now, Gare.

Yes. I honestly though, like I am a physical reader. I think the only person that I will. trust with an audiobook now is you though. You know, like... Thank you. So what did you think?

Have it be your first experience with an audio book? I want to know. She's interviewing us. It was sorry. I'm like, I talk about me enough. I let her do whatever she wants. You're right.

She's my queen. Like for you? It was very exciting as an experience because I'm used to like true crime podcast. Right? But my attention span when I'm listening to anything is very short because I'm like, what do I have to do next? Like I have to take my dog out. I have to feed him.

I have to like, you know, I have three jobs. So I'm like, my mind's always like going in different directions. But with this, it just kind of felt like this like very dark and disturbing soothing blanket that like helped me relax. And I loved like the full production. Like I was like texting Kate all of these like, I was like even the tape. tapes, like when you hear these tapes from this therapy session, they have this like little crackle to them that you almost like feel like you're listening to the tape. It was just so exciting and so much fun. I absolutely love that. Well, I'm glad you say that because the

therapy sessions are actually like my favorite parts of the entire thing, right? Because you have that that you can do. Like you hear the little nuance. Like you actually feel like you're listening in on somebody's therapy session, which is exactly what I wanted to happen with the audiobook and I feel like it did. Do you know what I mean? Because you do like you feel those the pauses and like the actual therapy room space if that makes sense. Yeah. Did you write it differently than like other books no with that in mind? Like was it kind of a different process were you? Yes. Absolutely. So this you know like I was saying it's a it's a fully produced audiobook, right? And so most, you know, traditional audio books are, you know, the narrator is

reading the text, right? But in a fully produced audio, it's, you know, there's sound effects, there's scores, like there's really good, like, voice actors and actresses. And so it's just a different experience. And this is actually my second one that I've done. So I did one of her own last year, which was the first time I had done one that was fully produced. So when I knew that I was going to do another one, I was very, very, I took basically everything that I had learned that worked well in the first one and everything that didn't, you know, worked so well and like built on, I went into very differently. And so I knew sort of from the jump, that the therapy sessions would be a great way to play up both sort of the

domestic dispense angle within the audiobook setting. Right. So, and it did that and then the text messages between Bodie and Colton were also, you know, like I loved that because you could hear the text sounds, right? It has, you know, every now and then you hear. you hear the actual texting. So yeah, it was, I wrote it very, very differently, knowing that this is how it was going to be produced and come out.

And because I had done one before. So I was like, okay. Right. How do I want to make it, you know, because I'm always trying to make my work better and level up every time. So I'm like, how can we make this more entertaining? Yeah, totally. I, yeah, the, your bar is.

set very high gear. Most audiobooks aren't like this. And there are some that still incorporate a little bit more. But that was a little bit like for anyone who has listened to Project Hail Mary. That was like the third or fourth audio book I listened to. And I was like, oh, I've been so spoiled.

Right. Yeah. I mean, it is. It's like if this is, yeah. Because it's really like listening to a movie, right? It's at that level. Yeah. Yeah. How did you? How did you come up with the idea for this story?

Did you, and kind of like, did you fit it for this project or did you kind of know you had a short story in mind? I really did fit it for this project. So as soon as I knew that I was going to do another audiobook like this, I looked at, I actually have a notebook that I keep like a running list of ideas and various stories and things like that. So when I knew I was doing an audiobook, I pulled that out and I was just looking through like, what are my different ideas that I've had of different things that I want to do? And where in this could I make this work? Because I'm also one of the writer, one, a kind of writer that like I actually never really run out of ideas. And now that I'm saying that I'm like knocking on everything of wood in my office. Like, she never wrote again.

Always this like backlist other messed up storylines, right? So then I went into there and was like, okay, what could I do? Right. And then part of it was I, I love the idea of sort of the secret lives of our phones, right? And that was actually what the original, it's called This is a Safe Space, which the title of it is. But when I was going through my list of ideas, it was sort of under the secret lives of our phone, right? And so I knew that I wanted to do a story that looked into that and, you know, the life that people live like when they're behind a screen versus in real life and all of, you know,

the many ways that that plays itself up. And so I was like, oh, that would be a really great way to do this and work this story, you know? And then how could I do it? And then that's when I stumbled on the therapist idea. And I wanted to have male characters. I wanted to have like a cast of characters, again, because I knew that I'd done it before and I was like, okay, what, you know, so that was also a piece of it was I wanted different voices,

male and female voices. So it was just a very different process going into it. I love how it turned out. I'm really happy with it. Oh, it was so good. It was so good. I'm just so shocked because you can take a full-length novel

by Lucinda Berry and you have these little like nooks and crannies of these like reveals and like things that you don't want to happen in this whole like wild adventure that you have psychologically with your books. So the fact that you jammed it into this like short story and I still had that same feel

it was amazing. This is probably one of my top five of your stories. Really? Oh, good. Because I know you've read my entire catalog so that means a lot coming. You know, I love hearing that from, you know, people out of stuff.

I think I really, this was, this is one of my favorites as well, too. I really, I really had a good time with it. I really had a good time with it. I was on the edge of my seat and I was like listening. I was like, I can't even cheat and like skip ahead a couple of pages to like calm my anxieties because there's this like, you know that something bad's going to happen in a Lucinda Barry book. And then you know that it's going to like get dark and twisty and you're going to have these

characters and you're going to be like, no, I don't want you to be the bad guy. Oh, you are the bad guy. No, I don't want you to be like devastated emotionally, but I'm going to be devastated emotionally. And then there is the Lucinda Barry twist that has never failed. once and this is easily one of my favorite twists one of my favorite twists because there's so many I know it's also why it's hard to talk about this one yes yes right it's like anytime we get into my books it's like you can talk about the beginning and we get to talk about it in a vague way but it's like yeah it's like this is yeah but I love I love the twist in this one too I will say that I love the twist there are a lot of tropes in this one that I'm not going to talk about on like here because it's a

spoiler. But there are so many tropes that I love in a thriller that you combined in this one. And my DMs are always open for anybody when they finally listen to it because it was just so harrowing. And I was like so sad. And then I was like flabbergasted. And then the twist came. And then I was like, oh my God, she did it again. Yeah. It was one of my favorite one so far. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yeah. Yeah. So go ahead. You go ahead. You go ahead. I just rambled. I just rambled about... No, look. Ask a question. Go for it. I am just curious on when you're writing a story like this or any of your other stories,

is there any point where you're like, I have to reel back a little bit with like how... Yes. Because like they do get dark. Well, like, the thing is that I always respect about you is that your stories do deal with very dark subject matter. But I don't think that they're ever like overly violent or like, to like in your face with like a lot of people who write things that are similar like do for shock value. Like yours is done in a very like elegant way where like it's dark and disturbing but it's not like, oh, I can't read something like that because it's like too violent or in your face.

So like I just think like how do you walk that line between like dealing with dark and disturbing subject matter but not making it too like grotesque. Well, I'm always very, very conscious of that in like everything that. I do, right? And it's always something that's in the back of my mind. And I, because I don't ever want to use something that's really traumatic as like a plot twist, if you know what I mean, just because it's the thing that would shock you the most, right? And there is, so I really try to shock. away from that. And then one of the things that I try to do is to keep as much so if there's any sort of like trying to be delicate with my words, like sexual violence or domestic, you know, graphic, a graphic fight scene or something like that that might be very, very traumatic. I try to keep a lot of the actual action part of it off the page and only enough on the page to give you an idea of that experience,

right? Because most of the time, and I'm trying to think of there, but I mean, most of the time, it's all about the internal experience of that person anyways, right? Because my stories are usually so character driven, right? So it's like I try to show. show and tell enough where you understand what that character is going through and experiencing at the same time that's in a way that's not too shocking and vulgar. Like it's always walking the line between I'm trying to shock people, not horrify them. Right. Right.

So, yeah. And I do go way off sometimes. Like, you know, I mean, like, I do. that's why I have editors, right? That's why you have other people that are always like, hey, and even in this one, right, there were a couple different scenes. The bathroom scene. That was much more graphic and grotesque initially.

And it was like, oh, let's pull out this sentence. And that's why I have, you know, editors that can have another set of eyes that look at it because they're always, you know, often you have the same goal in mind, right? And so they're trying to shape the story in the same way that I am too. So that's really helpful in keeping me from, you know, crossing over that line and within certain parameters. Well, still telling a good story. Yes. Amazing stories.

All of those things. I remember when one and four came out, a lot of people were in my DMs and they were like, I read like some dark and disturbing books, you know, like I read like Pretty Girls by Karen Slaughter, which was like, pretty graphic. I read a book called Burner by Robert Ford, which is like the darkest thing I've ever read. What did you call? I'm like writing it down.

What did you call it? It's called burner? Like a burner phone. Oh, I've never. Robert Ford. You just introduced me to a new title burner. Okay. I'm writing.

I think you will love it. I honestly think you'll love it. Yeah. Once I finish. You're welcome in my DMs anytime. Even if you're just like hey with Jeff for lunch today. It's like everybody. Everybody team here.

It's like a little like Christmas letter every time it was in a very dandy um but like when people like when one and four came out like people were like how dark and disturbing is it and i was like i'm going to tell you something about lucinabary book is it's not like graphic disturbing and dark it's a story that is going to like break your heart put it back together a little bit but stick with you for the rest of your life and i think that's what like people like don't really understand a lot about your stories and like why i think that you stick out so much as an author because it's not so much of about like the violence or like the subject matter.

It's the fact that like your stories like really stick with people. Do you know what I mean? Like nobody's forget Janie. Right. Nobody's going to like you can like list a character and I'm like, oh yeah, like they went through it. Yeah. So but yeah.

Like I just think that that's something that like I really commend you for because that makes you stick out to me as an author and a storyteller. Thank you. I bet most people. who listened to this podcast, no, you, you're also Dr. Lucinda Berry, correct? Yes. I thought so, but like, as I was saying, I'm like, what if I was wrong? You're like, hold on. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I have teaching clinical psychology. Yeah. So how, how did that shape, like, your whole approach to writing and, like, starting to write? Yeah, just like, just how does that affect it? Well, I mean, it is kind of funny. I started

talking about this more and more because I always make it sound like I was going along in my life as a psychologist and then all of a sudden decided one day like, hey, I'm going to write these really messed up stories, right? And take people on these rides. And it didn't exactly happen that way. Like, I've always been a writer. Writing's always been a part of my psychology journey as well. My actual, my research while I was in doing my master's and my PhD actually looks at the role of writing in recovering from traumatic events. Wow. So writing's always been central and core to sort of like every, the two worlds. Yeah. And one of the things is that this sort of the same skills that made me an effective psychologist are the same skills that make me a good writer

in the sense that, you know, being a good psychologist requires you to have the ability to like step outside of yourself and into somebody else's skin and world point of view and see the world through somebody else's eyes other than your own, right? To be a good, you know, you have to be able to do that to be a good psychologist, right? And in the same way with being a writer. You know, part of being a writer is being able to create a character and put yourself in another character's shoes, sort of speak, right? In almost the same way, right? So those skills are very transferable, right? Very, very transferable. But like the leap really happened. that I actually, during grad school, is when I wrote my first thriller, which was Phantom Lim.

And because I read what I write, when I finished it, I was like, oh, this is good. And so that was when I started the journey of maybe, like, I'd written a good thriller and I was like, I'd done a lot of like academic writing and non-fiction writing at the time, but I'd never stepped into the fiction world. I'd written a ton of stories and stuff when I was younger and all of that. but I'd never but so I wrote Phantom Lim and I was like hmm this is pretty good and uh because I also love the twists in that one too

and that's like my first one baby so she's very close to me um and so yeah that was then what started the trajectory of then maybe I'll share this story with the world so that's where it started that's so cool here I am yeah it wasn't such it wasn't quite the dramatic like was going this way and then all of a sudden made a dramatic left. I do make it sound that way because I'm a little bit dramatic, but it was, you know, it's like intertined, you know, so. That's so cool.

I was going to ask, that was going to maybe be my follow-up question was if it felt therapeutic sometimes. So that's kind of cool that it's always come from an understanding of how writing can be therapeutic. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And I'll tell you from my research. all of my research always demonstrated significant differences between people that wrote about their traumatic events and people that didn't.

Wow. That's cool. Yeah. Cool. Yes, yes. And I'm always, there's also like, right? So I mean, y'all have read most of my catalog. And so there's always these psychological themes and elements that are in all, you know, and all of that just pulls from that experience, you know.

and it's the reason that I'm able to do that, the way that I do. And then I'm always bringing in, what's the word I'm looking for? Like social issues that are actually happening in society at, you know, the same time. Yeah. Because I am still sort of like a teacher at heart. Like there is that piece of, you know, opening people's eyes to like a different perspective, right? That you can do in psychology and then you can also do. in writing. You know, I just do it a little more sneakily in writing. Yeah. But, you know, I'm in, you know,

it's one of the reasons that I write queer characters, you know, it's because you're like, um, you know, my book might be like the only queer person somebody ever meets, you know, so. Yeah. That's my favorite TikTok in the world, by the way. Uh-huh. That's my favorite TikTok. I love you so much here. You could like literally like part-time choreographer. crushed it. Yes. It's my favorite. I love it so much. I love you. Um, I do not have a choreographer, but I live in a house full of-no. I think you are the part-time choreographer. I literally live in a world of teenagers, so I'm it. Yeah. Yeah. Here I am. No, you could be the choreographer because

you're crushing it. I love it so much. Um, but that's like something that I always really respected about your books too is that like, I think that there are so many people and how do I say this politically correct, but like there are so many people that like don't believe in trauma of certain things or they, you know, are on different sides politically and they might not believe certain things. And I think like when you read one of your books that has like social issues in it or something and like people are like, oh, it's dark. And I'm like, well, yeah, they have deal with like dark experiences. But like, this is kind of eye opening to people who like think that like assault on any level is like something that people can get over in a week or you know like there's not like

traumatic things that can happen or have lasting effect so then when you read a book by you and you like see what these characters are going through it's kind of like oh like maybe i'm in the wrong and like you know now you can kind of like see what people actually really go through yeah yeah in a different way right because you're partially removed from it when it's fiction right so it's like like if you go into something I'm trying to be so careful with my words we can also get stuff if we need to but yeah

so yeah like you can do things there that you can do sort of like in the real world like on the page of introducing people to different themes and topics you know and I get lots of positive feedback that way too. Yeah.

Like, oh, I had never actually, I mean, especially with like saving no undifferent, you know, just of way people are like, I had never actually thought about that before. Right. Or, you know, thought about, you know, people that way before or, you know, all of those, you know, all of those topics that are heavily laden in my books. So. Yeah. I talk a lot about, well, we all do on the podcast, but like, you.

can learn from fiction. It's not just nonfiction that you learn from. I was just at a, I was Rachel Harrison's book event for Play Nice. And I was sitting next to someone and she was like, what genres do you read? And so I was like saying them. And then she was like, I kind of read everything. I just don't read nonfiction because I don't want to learn. And I was like, I was like, you learn when you read fiction too. It's okay. But it's like, it's a different kind of empathy when you can like live in a character who's experiencing something that maybe you've never experienced. Well, and that's the thing. You can have empathy.

And I think that that's what shocks people, right? I mean, you see what comes to mind, of course, right? People are just, like, shocked when they have the slightest piece of empathy for a character that's done something horrible, right? Yeah. So there's lots of, you know, instances like that. Mm-hmm. But then once you've had that empathy, it opens up that human part of yourself versus that, like, stanch. argument of part of yourself.

It's, yeah, you know? Yeah. This is like one question that I know is not a spoiler because it's in the synopsis. But like I think one of the things that like social wise that you kind of deal with in this one is people's misconceptions and judgments of sex work. So what was it like writing a character like that in this, you know, day and age where people are so judgmental about like any. sex work whatsoever and having that character in your mind. Well, she was one of my favorite characters to write in this. So she was my favorite.

Let's say Chardonnay. I think that's in the description. Okay. I was like, that's in the description, right? I'm not getting out of anything away. And again, I chose her role very specifically as well, too, because she does demonstrate a very down-to-earth practical woman that has chosen to be an adult entertainer as a way to make legitimate money, right? She's putting herself through school that way.

And there's, you know, again, I think that we, you know, people can have a very limited view. and judgments of what that looks like. And so this is a delicate way of showing the sort of like the whole piece of that person, right? This is one part of their life that they do, but there's all of this other parts and pieces about them. So it makes you see them as a whole person versus just this one thing that they're doing that you have so much judgment about. you know and I know and know a lot of people that make a very good living in adult entertainment and that's a legitimate choice if that's something that you've picked for yourself. Yeah, yeah.

You handle it so delicately and like, like I love, I love her so much. I almost used it to her. Like she is just so, she's just such a good character. Like every time she came on the page, I was like, oh, here she is. And her name, I was like Lexa Chardonnay And I did that one too, by the way, that's my name. I had to like ask anyone for it. I was like, that is a great

That was fantastic. And I am using it. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, she was so fun to write. She was my funnest, like, funnest. Is that real more? I don't know.

But you know what it means. The best. Yes. I can make up words. I'm a writer. Yes. Yes. So yeah.

She was, she was. This is a safe space. You can do whatever you want. I was amazing. Yeah, I will say that you have never written a stereotypical character, a day, and all of your characters are so different, and, like, they're so, like, least what you expect. And she is, yeah, she's going to stick with me for a very long time. Because I didn't read the synopsis with this.

I love what you said. They're a good guy. Oh, no, they're a bad guy. You know? Yes. Oh, you're attached to my character. You're like, oh, they're good. Oh, no, they're bad.

Oh, they're bad. Yeah. You never know. You never know. I read like, I've read so many of your books and like you always have like a really like fantastic cast. Like whether it's like a small like tight knit cast or you have like, you know, like a lot of like side characters. And even like some of your books in the past like I'm not going to say which ones. But like I'm like she can't even write like a white bitchy housewife without like avoiding stereotypes.

Because there's always like so many like layers to peel back with like everybody. Yeah. But I didn't read the synops. to this one. Like, I was just like... Ooh, you went in totally blind? I have been going in totally blind since, um, if you tell a lie. Okay. So like when I finished if you tell a lie, I was like, there are so many things that like, if I just would have went into this blind, that like would have shocked me even more. And so

when I decided to go through your back list, like, I just did eating, me, me, me, mighty mo. Like, I didn't read the synopsis for anything. Oh, that's so fun. And it was the, like, that is how I, suggest everybody. That is so fun. No wonder. No, it was the best experience. Like, that is my advice if you go into Listen to Beery Buck is like you just for like your birthday, a holiday, whatever you want to do, you just buy a copy of every single one and

you eat me, me, my, me, mo or like whatever you need to do to just go in blindly. But like I went in blindly with this one. So when Lexus Chardonnay popped up in my earbuds, I was like, she's just a genius. I absolutely loved that name and then her character was like one of the ones that's going to stick with me the most. I was actually really sad because when we had to actually start titling the document by its actual title. Now, I mean, this is a safe space. It's a good title. I actually like the title of it.

But the working drafts back and forth was Lexus Chardonnay. So it was like, it was like, here's Lexus. The Chardonnay back, right? You know, it was my favorite. So when we actually had to, like, switch to calling it what it really was, I was a little bit sad. With, since we are kind of talking about your characters, and I agree, they all feel, like, so distinct. And what Gare said, like, they're not really ever archetypes even. how much planning do you do ahead of time kind of wraps in the question of like do you plot do you get to know your characters or do you kind of like get going and that's how you meet your characters and learn the plot well i so it depends i am basically a pancer when it comes to the plot and the story and all of that and where that's going but a lot of

of times what I will do once I know the basic parameters of the story and where I'm going in the characters because I tend to have multiple characters in my books and most of the time I'm writing in multiple points of view. I will, like I have a big whiteboard in my office and then a mirror that I actually write on that too. But I will do like characters. like basically family trees almost right i will set out all of my characters so i'm i'm very much i don't know if you'd call it like a plotter that way but i do give a lot of tension to my characters once i know who they are right um i think the heart like i literally the best of friends has so many characters and i really do feel a little bad for that one i'm like that was a big

cast of characters and I should have given everybody my tree for that because I literally had this elaborate thing and at that time I was in my old house and I had a huge whiteboard in my kitchen. I still have a whiteboard in my kitchen. It's just smaller. But that one was huge and so on that the whole time I was writing that I had made an actual tree of all of the families because there's three families and three families with three sets of So three families of three couples and then three couples that also have children, right? And so that was in my kitchen forever.

So I do because, again, because most of myself is so character driven, I do really get into my characters once I know who they are. And they're usually living around my house. I love them as you all. Yeah. They're usually living around my house. I just sometimes I'll, you know, I'll do things too where like if it, you know, if it's like, if I, if they're like, remind me of a certain celebrity or if I'm like,

you know, I'll even like cut out pictures and smack them up. I mean, it really is like, the characters are live in my house. My poor child. I wonder what he'll tell his therapist. You know, like, Gerard Butler's on our refrigerator. Right. Yeah. There's worse things. There's worse things. Oh, yeah. I just, yeah. I love how we're like circling back to like the fact that you're like, I never, run out of ideas. So, like, I can imagine, like, I don't know what your sleep schedule is like, but I can just imagine it's very hard for you to fall asleep because, like, the wheels are always turning. But, like, I just have this visual of you, like, writing down on the marker

board in your, like, kitchen and then, like, stirring your pasta with the other hand as you're writing down these, like, ideas. That's pretty much how it goes. Or I'm, like, on this side and I run over. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, you know, you spend a lot of time in your kitchen. It's, you know, I'm like, I do anyway. because I'm feeding a ravenous child that never stops eating, right? So I'm like always in there. It feels like, you know, and so it's like when I'm thinking, and I think, I think through like pens of paper.

So it just, yeah, it has to come out. It's exactly what I'm doing in my kitchen. Are you ever working on multiple projects at the same time? Because you released multiple books last year. Was that right? Or there was like the audiobook and a book? Yeah, I'm always, I'm always working on things multiple projects at one time. Like I can't actually remember the last time that there was just one thing that I was working on.

But things are often like in various stages of development too, right? So it's like one book, one project I might be like writing the first draft for, right? And then like another one I'm doing like the proofread. on or something like that, right? Which is very, which is very different. So it's, it's not usual that I'm first draft writing multiple things at the same time, you know, usually. And my team is like pretty good at setting things up of my schedule, you know, of when things are being delivered and worked on when. So it's not so much like all of the heavy first draft writing happening at the same time. Yeah. I'm like always juggling multiple projects.

But it's good. I mean, I write best under pressure, quite honestly. Like, I like having lots of things happening. Yeah. I know. Like, when you, I just can't believe you're a panther. We're still shot. We're still back here.

Yeah, I know. Well, because, like, Kate always asked that question whenever we talk to an author. And I always think that I'm going to have it right. And I don't. I don't. I'm like Lucinda Mary is a plotter Like there's no way I'm not I'm trying to look

I'll show you Let's see I love this Like this is one of Wow Like I just end up fuck wild I mean this is actually very structured For me

Wow Yeah Yeah yeah yeah that's I don't even know which Oh this is Janey This is Janie's stuff going down Oh Don't even tell me. Don't.

I'm going to spiral. That one I had, we all know how much I love dating. We all love Janie. But so like the pretext is like it's, it's good. I mean, yeah,

I mean, but it's like you could, I mean, this is actually organized. Like I tell people most of the time it's not this organized. Like if somebody found one of my notebooks, they would like literally never be able to steal my ideas

because they'd be like, this makes absolutely no sense. You're your own encryption. But to me it does. It's like just arranging like all of the, all of the pieces and parts and how they're coming out. And I'm writing this side at the same time that I'm writing that side. I don't really know how to explain that. I know I love it.

This is my like, this is my like mat. Like people want to go to like the mat in New York and like they want to go to all these museums. Like your office would be like my like dream tour to like flip through the books. We need to do those like architectural digest like Lucinda Berry's crib. I would laminate every page. I would laminate every single page. I need to do a little like shelf tour, bookshelf tour again. Yeah.

Because I just rearranged it all again. I have to remain going to. It's always very neat behind me because it's like this is the part that I'm off and on, you know. Yes. I'm not in here when it's like full chaos. This part is always organized. Yeah. That's not wall for me.

As we know, right? Yeah. Yeah, there are cords everywhere, but you guys are looking that way. This is absolute chaos. Don't go in the closet. Stay out of my closet. My closet looks a lot like that notebook. I can't shut this closet door because there are too many packages at the bottom and it won't shut.

Too many what is at the bottom? There's too many packages of like stuff that I've ordered. So I like, I get packages and I'm like, I can't open them right now or I like just choose not to so I like throw them at like the bottom of my closet and I just like worry about it another time and then like when I'm like oh I have like a Zoom or something and I'm like oh I can't shut that so there is like one section that's kind of clean but um when you um I was thinking about that too with um this is a safe space like with your character

relationships you explore so many like even in a short story that I just like am curious like is that something that you kind of even if it's like in your mind where you like plot ahead of how like you think that they're going to like go in different directions or yes so there's pieces um there's pieces that I map out once I have an idea of where we're going so I mean I'm not like a total um pancer I am when it first starts. starts flowing and coming, right? But then I do have to organize it some, right? Because what happens is, and again, because I write on such a fast schedule. Like, I've done, you know, you can write yourself up into a corner, right? Where you're like, oh, this, I didn't think this through. And now I've just lost 15,000 words that I have to chop and get rid of, right?

So I am much more structured and intentional in my writing now than I ever have been before when I started out, right? Particularly because I don't have as much time and sort of like have to be. But yeah, so I, I, there's times though where there's like in under her care, right? that book as I was like halfway into doing it all of a sudden um there needed to be a whole new character in it so I was like halfway through writing it and it was like um the daughter that was in that book she hadn't existed in any of the original drafts or idea or anything and then it was like oh and so then that changed so much of the entire book right right things like that happen um were it but it's constantly moving

pieces that I'm moving around constantly. So you just generally have, yeah, like a genuine, like, or a general idea is like where every relationship is going to go. Yeah. And it's like and it, but and again, like every book is different. So like some books I start with like I know what the twist is going to be, right? Like I get an idea and the idea is the twist, right? Other books come to me in a scene, right?

So like, so like saving Noah. I knew the twist. Like I knew the twist from the jump, right? Right. And that was one of the things that propelled that book. Other ones, like, appetite for innocence. The very first line and seen in that is how it came to me, like, initially, right? So the way that they come to me is, like, always different to of how they're going to be done.

But then once I'm in it. then it is much more structured and organized in where I'm going and what I'm doing. Because there's always multiple things happening. As you know, right? So it has to get organized in some way. And it does. I just don't think anyone else would ever understand my organized madness. But yeah, there comes a point when it's like all of the, you know,

I do have to sort of structure it. so I don't get lost. Yeah. That makes sense, though. Like, the saving Noah twist still gets me to this day. That makes sense that that was one that, like, you thought of right from the jump. Yes. Yeah, that makes sense, though.

Well, if we're going to talk about the loose and a very twist, do you have any that you think really surprised you when you were writing them? Well, under her care did. Because that was, I didn't know that that's how it was going to end. I don't know how to say that any other way without giving away that book, right? So that surprised me. I was like, oh, that's how this is going to go and that's how this is going to end. So that one I would say was the most surprised. for me.

I'm trying to think any other ways. Nothing else really comes to me off the top of my head of how I've like shocked myself. I don't think so. Most of my. Yeah. Yeah. Most of it is like I'm shocking you. I'm like, I don't know if I've ever.

I mean, I haven't shocked myself, but I've definitely like written stuff that was like really dark. that I was like, oh, that was a little bit too much. Like, you know, even for me, you know, like, oh, that was, you know, let's reel that back in. So that's definitely happened. Yeah. I think the perfect child and if you tell a lie and say we know, we're the one like the biggest, like shocking twist. Like those are the ones where I like threw the book. Yeah.

I'm hoping. So it's her first lie is the prequel. to the perfect child and I'm hoping that like you want to throw the book against the wall for that one too so because I think it's

I don't know it's got another good twist the whole yeah I'm so excited I'm so excited for people to read that one too that one comes out when does that come out

April that's my next full link my next full link so this is a safe space is next week because it's the 21st yes which seems

is unreal that it's almost the end of October. But so, yeah, so this is a safe space, October 21st. And then her first lie is April, April something, maybe even April 21st, which would be weird, but very synchronous if it was. But her first lie comes out April 20 something. That's crazy. I'm so excited. I'm so excited.

Well, Goodreads thinks it's March 31st, but that could be wrong, obviously. That's what it was. Is it still 31st on good dates? Oh, no. That's interesting. You know how sometimes there's two expected publications? But that was the old date. Yeah.

So it has March 31st and then lower it has April 21st. So is it, what is it now? April 21st is the other date that it lists. Is it really? What does that mean that both my books are the 21st? Something. Someone knows. One of the astrology or numerology people will have to say it.

What is that? That means the 21st both releases. Come on Taylor Swift. Come on the pod. Answer your question. Right? She would get at. We know it means something.

Somebody let us know. Yeah. That's your lucky number for. I guess so. I'm going to fuck now. Mm-hmm. One in four was, was that May 13th, I think? I can't believe.

Yes, it was. It was May 13th. Yeah. You just remember the things. One and four. And that's why you, one and four, I, I, one in four, I didn't think that they did the best job marketing it. And that's why you liked it so much, just because you went in blind to it, I bet, as well.

Because a lot of people thought that they were going into that book reading about a reality TV show. I remember seeing that. Like, one in four is, what do you say? It's probably one of my darkest. We were just talking about it earlier. I was like, I think it was darkest in you know. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, yeah, it's one of my darkest.

And so a lot of people had a very strong reaction to it negatively, but I actually completely understand why. Because if I went into a book thinking that I was going to get sort of a behind the scenes of reality TV and then it was. I think they thought like pop-torn thriller like a bop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and so yeah. So anyways. But I think that that's one of the things that happened with that. that book was like the the like a lock through and all of that was it was very reality TV focused yeah which was probably not the best move sorry any of my publishing team it might be

I mean the reviews saying you're not saying anything like I've I've seen reviews that said that too right yeah and it said that was a lot of what it was is like wait this wasn't reality TV and is like oh no this was this was not you know it was like it was like the setting that kicked it off. But yeah, at the end of it's really, you know, it's probably one of my darkest. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah.

It's easy in my top three, like, of the darkest. But it's also, it's also my number one. Yeah. That's my number one. Yeah. But I also, like, this is why I swear, if you guys follow your favorite authors, the way that you follow Taylor Swift, you will not be disappointed. Right.

Because the only hint that I had with one in four. was one of your TikTok lies. And you were like, I'm working on something right now. It's called one in four. If you know anything about statistics, you already know what it's going to be about. But that's all I'm saying. And you're not,

you were like, I'm not saying anymore. So like I kind of knew what to expect with that. But I also was like, it's a listen to Barry book. I'm going in blind. I don't care. Like, I know I'm going to love it. And then also your, because I love your sense of humor, you sent me an arc of it.

on Valentine's Day. Oh, that's right. And you were like, Happy Valentine's Day or whatever. That's probably his best Valentine's Day ever. That was the best. Yeah. Yeah.

No man will live up to that. I don't care if I marry, like, Jacob Allorty. Like, he will never live up to listen to Barry dropping an arc in my, in my. Happy Valentine's Day or whatever. It wasn't even Happy Valentine's Day. It was happy Valentine's Day. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That was like the best. I forgot I did that on Valentine's Day. That was the best Valentine's Day of that hour. Oh, it's amazing. I was like, this is when you know you've made on books to Instagram. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

When it got to the, like, producing the audiobook, like the narrators, was that something where you were, like, kind of still part of it at that point, since you had kind of written it with a voice acting in mind? Yes. So I'm very much a part of it. like picking the narrators. Oh, nice. Which is hard.

It's so hard. It's very hard because it's hard to go from hearing them in your head to somebody else, right? And, but yeah, so it's actually a really fun process, though. So they, you know, they, you have a list of people that are possibilities. And so you sort of say, oh, I think they would be great or they would work. And then they really do because it's, you know, because it's audio, they really do then. They'll read like an excerpt or read something and then, you know, you listen and here and there's like a back and forth of like, oh, I think they would work or, you know, I like them or I don't like them. So yeah, I do have a lot of say.

And that's something that's changed over the years too is just my sort of ear for the narrators. and putting my own again, back to the old, like, getting out of yourself part, but like putting, you know, putting my own sort of like writer, author, creative self, and then just listening as like a listener, right? You know, which has then made it easier to like pick, okay, they would be good, them not, you know, them maybe not so much. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's fun choosing.

And then hearing it come together is also a, lot of fun too, especially, again, with this as a safe space, because it is such a different audiobook than traditional audiobooks. It's even, you know, funner to hear what they've done with it when it's finished. Yeah. I bet. It would be so cool. Yeah. Yeah. Every time I read your books, I can hear your voice when I'm like reading them with like all the dialogue. So it was like very interesting to have this be my first audiobook. Yeah. Oh, right? Yeah. Yeah. That it's me in it. Well, and that's one of the things. I'll tell you one of the things that's changed for me, having done a couple of these fully produced ones, is I read all of my dialogue out loud now, which is even in my actual novels, which is something I've never done before.

And it's something that they tell you in, like, writing classes or writing schools or whatever, which I've never really taken. But they do, like, they're like, read your dialogue out loud. and I never had done that up until one of our own, which was the first one that I did like this. And ever since then, I'm like, oh, this is why you should read your dialogue out loud because it really does change it and shift it. And so that's something that I'm sure, like going forward,

no matter what I will be like implementing in all of my stuff. So I feel like my dialogue's going to get even better. Somehow. It is like dialogue can be so tricky because sometimes you are reading something and you're like, this is not how like, not just like, oh, this is like someone from a different country than me. It's just like I don't think people talk like this or like sometimes that happens in exposition, especially in movies where you're like nobody walks up and is like, so how have you been since your wife died a year ago? Is it getting better? Like no one's like giving you all of that in dialogue. in real life. I love that Reese Witherspoon speech where she's like, what woman looks at a man and says like, now what do we do?

She's like never. Literally never. Oh, that's amazing. You have any, do you have any more questions, Gare? I have my one very last question. Good. Well, I mean, I could have thousands of them. We'll do this again.

Yeah. Yeah. I'll always just DM her with my questions too. With all of these adaptations of different books, are there any of yours that like you would love to see on the big screen or like as a mini series? Yes. And so one that I think would be great as a series is keep your friends close.

Especially after. like how well people responded to the hunting wives, right? This is like a West Hollywood sort of version of that almost. Yes. But Lucinda Barry's brain. Honestly, I think that a bunch of mine would do really well on screen. I think this is a safe space would be a great one. It would be so bad.

For film, right? Yes. That you can, you know, do really like, I don't know, like the, Like, you could do really interesting things with it. I almost just gave away a big spoilers. But we've made it through this whole talk with no spoilers. You did. I'm so proud of us.

Any of my books, which is, but yeah, I mean, honestly, like, I would just be happy with any of them making, like, actually making it to screen. And, you know, it's so different. But, yeah, the one at the top of my head is, like, keep your friends close because it works so well, like, in an actual, like, series. But then you could continue with the characters and all of that, right? And that was sort of how we always kind of pitch that one anyways was like desperate housewives meets, you know,

real housewives meets Lucinda Bairie's brain, you know, so. Yeah. But yeah, it's I think they all would. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Perfect child would be great. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we want to see them all. I want to see them all. Whoever's listening, make it happen. All 14, right? Yes. I want to cast them all.

Yes. I would be so picky. I would be so picky with the cast. Yeah. Yeah. I want to cast them all. That'd be hard. That would be hard.

I would take care of all of your babies if I could cast them all. I know you would. I know you would. You do such a good job. You do such a good job. I can't wait for this is a safe space. because I have everything already and like ramped up and ready to go and I'm just like waiting for pub day. Yes.

Next week. Next week. So cool. Tuesday. Tuesday, Tuesday. Yeah. Do you do you have any time left in your schedule to read? We always ask if you read anything that you love.

I wish I had, you know, I do a lot of audiobooks now. Yeah. It's like there are so much easier. Yeah. I listen to a lot of audiobooks. I wish I had more time to sit on the beach and read or sit anywhere and read. But I do like when I, so I binge read. Shocking.

Because I don't do, when I'm like first draft writing, I don't read, I read like other things, but I don't read any thrillers, misread like any of that when I'm first draft writing. because I just don't want anybody else's stuff in my head. So like when I have a break where I'm not or I'm just like editing or proofing or whatever, then I like literally binge read thrillers, right? So then it's like I, you know, and I have so much to honestly get caught up on because it's just like there's so many. Oh, yeah.

Good books and so little time. But yes, I when I have a minute, I am like a, you know, like how people are like binge drinkers. I'm like a binge reader. I'm like, plow through all the books that I haven't been able to read while I've been writing. Yeah. Yeah.

That makes sense. I will say when you read Burner by Robert Ford, when you get to that twist, when you get to that twist. When you get to that twist. Oh, you will hear for me. That's my next one. You are going to know what all of your readers have felt like reading a loose and very twist. Because that twist, I never saw it coming. And it was like the book was just like so dark.

crazy but I never saw the twist coming and then um right after was when I read if you tell a lie I'm so excited it was very it was like two back to back very dark and disturbing twist yeah sometimes you have some heavy weeks of reading I do it happens and then like that's when I'm like at my like happiest yeah right I mean what's wrong with us be same I know. It's like, I guess like it could also be like, well, these bad things are happening to these characters and not me. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, the other night I like was on the couch and I fell asleep watching the BTK killer documentary and had like the best like nap in the entire world. And I was like, what is wrong? Like I, you know, it's the middle like that's what puts me to sleep right is the documentary and serial killers. Yeah. It's so peaceful. I'm so relaxed.

Yeah. I fell asleep. other night listening to crime junkie and it was like an unsolved case. Oh boy. I was like, it was like the lover, lover's lane murders or something and I was like, just trying to think of like what I thought happened and then I just like had a very good night's sleep. I don't know what that says about us. Yeah, me too. I was like, oh, I had like the best. I wake up like a Disney princess, like little birds floating around. Oh, yeah. No, it would be. That would be your vibe. for sure.

That's why we belong together. I know, right? I was like the only person that could be my perfect roommate is Lucent. Yes. Well, if you ever make it to L.A. Oh, I would need to. Yeah. We all, we need to go out.

It's been raining all day today. The sun just came out. We got nothing but rain. I'm okay with rain. I love rain and reading. I do love Ruth. I can do one. I can do one.

I'm raining here too. Yeah. Yeah. It's been rainy here too. Well, obviously we loved it. Gair had his first audiobook experience. I think you might be the only author that could have, like, well, there might be, you know, but you're one of you that could convince him to listen to an audiobook.

So hopefully now I can convert him to more. Yeah. Yeah. Because one of our own. Anyway, this is so much fun. Yeah. It was so much fun. One of our own was the audio.

original that I really wanted to try. And then it came out in ebook. Yeah. Ebook format. So I read that one. But this, I was like, I'm not waiting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just read this one. Five star review. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I will put a link to it in the show notes because as of the time that you listeners are listening, you can go buy it and listen to it. And like Gare said, you can pop up into any of our DMs about it.

Yes, yes, yes. Hop into any of my DMs about anything, listen to Barry, and I will answer right away. And I'll see you on Valentine's Day. Yeah.