Bookwild - MacKenzie Green is the Global Head of Social for Audible!

Episode Date: May 29, 2026

MacKenzie Green is back, and she's now the Global Head of Social for Audible! Listen to hear about: How MacKenzie grew up dyslexic, relied heavily on audiobooks to keep up in school, and never imagined she would one day become Head of Global Social at Audible. Why people should read what they actually enjoy, DNF books that aren't working, and use whatever format—audio, ebook, or print—helps them engage with stories. How asking people what they were reading helped her build relationships, conduct informational interviews, and create meaningful follow-up conversations throughout her career, which all culminated in her new job at Audible. How reading is a way to understand other perspectives, strengthen listening skills, and connect with people through shared stories, and how audiobooks are a return to the oldest form of storytelling: oral tradition. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

So McKinsey Green is back with us, but I don't know if you keep your middle name secret. It is McKinsey Ann Green, just like I am a Catherine Ann. But she is now McKinsey Audible Green to me because she has some pretty exciting job news. Yes. So I always get to come on here as like a bookish girlie and a content creator. But now I get to come on here as McKenzie Green, the head of global social for Audible, because you and I are huge audiobook nerds. Yes.

We are constantly fighting the good fight about what constitutes is reading. Yes. And so, yeah, now I'm excited to be on here today as like a person in the literary world. Yeah. Like officially, professionally. Right. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

It's really nuts. And it's funny because at Audible, we do these like intros where ultimately like your manager kind of introduces you to the entire company. Okay. And you also write like about yourself in your own work. And I talked about in mind that I was like, I studied sociolinguistics because I love words so deeply that I just wanted to better understand how we use words. I talked about how I was a content creator around books in my five to nine. So long before anybody was paying me to talk about books, I was already talking about them.

And it's really fascinating, like being a bookish person at a brand like that. Like for people that don't understand or that might sound kind of crazy, when I worked at Paramount Pictures, I had. an incredible boss there. Karen Hermelin, shout out to Karen Hermanlin. She like kind of sat myself in my co-intern down and she was like, what are you guys, what's the last movie saw in theaters? And I know I've talked about this like before in so many places. So to everybody, sorry for repeating myself. I don't think you have here. Okay. So Karen basically was kind of like, hey, you know, what's the last thing you guys saw in theaters? And, you know, my co-intern who was an undergrad. I was in grad school at the time. She was like, oh, I don't really like see movies

in theaters. Like I can't really remember. And then I was like, yeah, I saw it with this weekend. And so she was like, great, what were the trailers? And I was like, oh, I wasn't really paying attention. And she genuinely like stopped. And she looked at both of us. And she goes, so if you guys want to work in the business of story, you better fall in love with story. She was like, specifically, we work in theatrical film.

That means you guys need to see every film in theaters that you possibly can to understand all the nuance. And then she turned to me and she was like, you live in New York. You should be seeing every musical, every play. you should be at every museum, understanding the art, all this stuff. She was like, you should be reading every book. She should be watching as many shows as humanly possible. And I was kind of like, wow, that's crazy to like expect somebody to know so much. And her thing was, you cannot be a custodian of storytelling and not care deeply about

and immerse yourself in stories. So honestly, when we talk about like my reading journey, I was not a big reader. I did not care about books. I grew up dyslexic. The only time I really got into books was like the Harry Potter era. And that was like, and we've talked about that too, like offline. This whole thing of like when you have those proof points in like the world of manifesting, it was like when I would tell myself I wasn't a reader as an adult, I would have to sit

with like, but you did read like a thousand pages of deathly hollows. Right. In like, oh, like less than a week. And it was like. And so I had like evidence that I obviously was a reader in their. somewhere. And so, yeah, I came back to New York after that summer and started being one of those cool pretentious girls who's reading a physical book on the subway. And yeah, it went from like, you know, a handful of books to now like over a hundred a year. And yeah, now I work in books.

And it's funny because like if somebody were to get in a time machine meet me as an undergrad, they would not be like, that girl one day is going to be the book person. And so to get this job and people associate me with books. Yeah. It's like, oh, they're like, oh, it makes all the sense in the world. Duh, you're that girl. And I'm like, it's not. Like, I would say my relationship with books would be like if, and you'll get this,

it would be like if tomorrow you became like a Christian influencer. Oh, gosh. You get what I'm saying? Like, my relationship with books was very like, I don't like them. I don't want them. This is not for me. Like, get out of here. So like the, so like that I use that example because that would be like people meeting you in the future and being like, oh, of course you're this creator around like, you know, deconstructing Christianity but coming back home to to spirituality. Yeah. You would be like, oh, if you knew me from like however many years ago, you'd understand that that sentence makes sense to you. Yeah. But to me. It is like, what are you talking about? Or it's like, I'm sure it's the way people feel. You think so.

of it was related to being dyslexic? It really was. What probably convinced you. It was deeply related to dyslexia and feeling stupid. And, you know, again, I don't, I can talk about this on this show. It's like I was growing up in these predominantly white spaces and schools where the idea of intelligence is through a very specific binary lens of what intelligence looks like. So like my physical knowledge, my proprioception, my ability to figure out how to use my body

to do things was not considered intellect. like my my ability to kind of like listen and synthesize that wasn't it it was did you read three chapters of jane air last night and it was kind of like you feel about that that beef started soon and it will never stop but it's like that's the thing it's like here i am dyslexic somebody is like here's 50 pages of a book yeah read it tonight i'm like read it tonight right and like have something to say about it Yeah, like what? And to a very circuituitous. Wow, I almost said it the wrong way.

We're with you. We know what I meant. Wow. In a very circuitous way of how I even ended up where I am now, it's like my mom immediately was like, oh, oh shit, she's struggling to like read and keep up. And so she was going and getting, this is how old I am, going and getting the physical cassettes of books on tape to put in the car. So it was kind of like, okay.

It was like if we're driving to swimming. if we're driving to horseback riding, if she has all this time in the car, let's listen to the book. And then maybe at least she'll be like a chapter ahead before she gets home tonight and tries to get through this homework before the alarm goes off at five for her to get to swimming again, even though we walked in the door at like 9 p.m. from the barn. And so, yeah. And so like that was kind of my first foray into audiobooks and also this idea of listening comprehension. because, you know, as an ADHD monster.

That's the other part. That's the other part. It's like the ability to sit and listen and comprehend those words and like try to digest them was like such a, it was another way to work my brain. And it's why I think I became such a good yapper. Yeah. Because part of me was like, you know, because it's coupling it with I don't have annotation in my book because I'm listening to the book. But everybody's acting like that's not reading. So now I'm sitting there.

with my book. I know what we're talking about because I listen to it. Yeah. And now I have to pull a Billy Flynn and tap dance my way through this discussion because I can't reference direct quotes. I'm not able to be like on page 82. Like, you know, the concept of how we approach

audiobooks now is so different. But at the time, I very much was like, I'm just listening on tape. Right. This is how I keep up. And so that also bookmarks. Literally, we didn't have the bookmark feature where you could be like and remember this. Oh, and remember this. and come back. It really was this thing of like, I had to listen. I had to figure out how to like kind of

bullshit my way through the conversation without having to directly make quotes. But I was, I'm the one now, here we are all these years later, because I will have beef with Charlotte Bronte till I die. But it's like, because of the care and attention and what the extent to what I had to do to be able to read and follow, it, you know, it encoded a lot of books in me, but like, boy, was it a challenge. And so, it is a very it's a very full circle thing to now be in this place that is hopefully helping like a new generation of neurodivergent kids be able to enjoy story and then honestly adults who need to read more my god in heaven at least something every now and this yeah like most people could probably find some book um but what you were talking about too though uh like it sounds like you in your early 20s when she was telling you like consume story Yeah. That was reminding me. I remember because like I read a lot as a kid growing up, but also I just had a choice over what I was reading. Yeah. But I did. I still read as much as I possibly could. I remember I did finally found like a Christian action series one time. And I was like this like pacing is so much fun. But I couldn't find any other ones. We had one of my friends, her grandfather was our bishop. I grew up in the Ami Church. So y'all, I always. I have the same stories Kate has about how religion works. But her grandfather was our bishop.

And so, like, churchy down. And so her mom would make us listen to these, like, again, it's all things leading back to audible, these almost like, these almost like serialized, like biblical stories through tape. But it was like kind of modern. It was so war of the world's unnecessary. But now that I'm thinking about it, I'm like, that would be an audible original now. is like come immerse yourself in the stories of the Bible with full sound design and because my mom let me legit read read I would be sitting in the car like okay yeah cool but that story sounds like this story and then it would be like child I'm like I'm sorry my family lets me also read and like science and do all the things yes yeah yeah I when I it was reminding me of when I was probably I'm assuming I was 19

because it was like my freshman year of college. But I remember being like, how do I find more books to read? And so, um, basically like I remember it. The other thing that was like, it was all dawning on me now is like bookstagram.

Instagram itself wasn't as huge as it was yet. This would be 2013 and 2014. Um, so like that wasn't established. And I remember just being like, how do you find more books to read? Because like ones that would get what, what now I would consider like,

like the industry darlings each year like those permeate everything and you end up seeing them everywhere and then I'd be like okay that was great I want to read something else and I remember be like how do you even like yeah figure this out because it was like I had the appetite but I didn't know where to find it yet my gateway drug was the belitris book club so that came that started around the same year I was kind of coming back into reading yeah and I was like you I'm like how do people decide what they yeah like how next what is this even? mean. And so then you have Bellatrist and they're like

the first book club pick is Joan Didion's you know, east west. And I'm like, who the fuck is Joan Didion? Like in my head it was and I know this sounds crazy but it really was like, who is Joan Didion? Because I slowly was getting. I've got a lot of readers still don't know. Well, and the funny thing and

in terms of the timing and her being like you have to read everything, I did start to slowly have a curiosity around like books and story. Like to give people additional context, I had one point did have a very devilware's product job. My first year of business school, I was the third assistant of four to Glinda Bailey, the editor-in-chief. And I know some of you are like, third, I bet you wanted to be one.

No, I didn't. One has the hardest job. Yeah, one goes everywhere. She does everything. Two was like logistics. Two had the worst job. I was always like, help you. Me being three, I had, I was basically like chief of staff.

So I was the one that handled business meetings, cross-functional, going to get notes, all this stuff. Well, when your assistant three, though, you don't sit out in the bullpen outside of the EIC's room. So where I was sat was next to the literary editor. Everybody at Harper's would scramble to get like the beauty stuff, the clothes. In the fashion of Denzel Washington, I was like, I'm leaving out of here with something. Because everybody would scoop up everything else from the health editor. all you know it's like ball of weights would be over there somebody would be like you know at the time it was like that goop like 10,000 marble weight somebody was like it's in the kitchen and like everybody

like damn near had like a foot race to get to it and I really was like I'm getting something I'm not leaving here empty handed and so I genuinely started asking the literary editor because she had this huge stack of all these arcs that I was like can I just can I have some of these? Yeah. And she was like sure okay what she was like fine nobody ever wants these and I was like oh cool how many can I take and she goes as many as you want oh that's awesome and so literally every day i would just take a handful of books now if you're thinking yourself what kind of books i didn't care again i just wanted to have especially when you're very new to books like all it's kind of like

all the storylines yeah and i wanted something to show for this job that was kicking my ass because you know it's like again it was very double-worse product so i would show up to campus and girls would be like oh my god did you get like the new mark jaco's bag and i'd be like ha ha ha no No. And so eventually I was able to at least come to campus with like 20 books on my hour and I was like, well, you know, the literary editor gave this to me. And the first book I read in the group that really like snapped me back into it is this incredible book called Perfect Days by Raphael Montez. It is one of those books I keep saying I need to reread because it left such an impression on me. It was a translation of a Portuguese author.

It was such a wild ride. It's a psychological thriller. It's like, it's like obsession and fatal attraction. And then the twist at the end, I genuinely didn't see coming. It was very, the best way I could describe this book is that joke about if you kidnapped me, that's not the issue. You're in the car with me. You're going to get tired of me?

Yeah, it's like, that's the best way I can describe it. It's very like, no, I'm not trapped in here with you. you, you're trapped in here with me. And it is, I love that. Yeah. It was a why. And so that really kind of, it came out 2014. So we're like right in the same. Yeah. And so it like, it blew my mind. I'm like reading. I'm like books are like this. And so that really kind of messed my brain up. Because now I'm like, like you said, I'm like, how do I find more of this? Like what even is this? Yeah.

Like this isn't this isn't a classic in school. This isn't me right. Fighting my way through Dante's Inferno. however, I did write an incredible paper about how IKEA is the representation of the seven circles of hell. Ooh. I was really proud of myself because I hate IKEA. Have you read horror store? No. Okay.

You know, you know I love me from Grady Hendricks. Everybody, I love him so much. I have so many feelings and opinions and critiques for him. But if he dropped a new book right now in the middle of this recording, I would have to go order it immediately. I haven't read it either, but that's kind of the gist of it. Okay. I might need to read it. It's even formatted like an IKEA catalog.

You know what? So I've had people tell me it's one that you like really have to read not even on your Kindle, like an actual physical copy. That's the thing is I've had people tell me I have to do it as a physical. And so I'm like, all right. I got to be in the right head space. I know. That's how I got to be ready. I got like pay attention.

You said Ikea is the seven. Yeah. Now that you've revived me, I'm like, well, I know what I'm doing this long weekend. because what is my doing? But like, and I think that was such a transformative experience because then I had the next part of that that opened up was this like Bellatrice book club, these very, you know, these lit, thick books that feel so that kind of like blow your mind. And so it was next up for that was The Immortalist by Chloe Benjamin.

I know people have feelings about this book. I know people think it's so saturn and trite. I love this book. It truly. is the book that I reread every year. It makes me emotional every time I read it. It is about four siblings who go to a fortune teller and they find out, each of them finds out the day they will die. And I know it's so cheesy, but I love it.

And maybe it's because of like how much I've been going through with my dad's health, all this stuff. Just so many things. And especially at that time period, because even you pay attention, it's like, it's around that time where I'm already struggling and at school, all this stuff. Oh, yes. I thought you missed the time. And then the other place. Yeah.

And then I find myself going to the other place. It's that it is this beautiful meditation, at least in my opinion, on like, what do you do with this life that you have? Yeah. Because I always feel, I mean, Jesse and I have talked about this before on, on manifestation Monday. But it is this idea of like, how would you live your life if somebody told you, you had 20 days to live?

Yeah. Or if somebody told you, you have 50 more years. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like what do you do with that information? What like, do you live this big life with what little time you have? Or if somebody tells you you have 50 years, from where you are right now, are you like, well, now I'm just going to like, you know, I'm going to be super afraid to do anything. Like, I'm going to try to see if I can live longer.

Like just so many, it's such an interesting just book in this idea of like, what do you, what do we do with time? Yeah. And how easily do we waste it? Yes. And it's like and it's just so wonderful and it like it deals with like a queer story, all this stuff. But it that was another one where light and perfect days. I'm like people are writing books like this.

Yeah. Like this is what books are. They're not these like sad, annoying things, you know, or whatever. And then, you know, again, as part of my reader journey, it's like I grew up with the Harry Potter audiobooks. Some of the greatest. I thought every audiobook was like that. I went into audiobook listening being like, oh, so every book is like this where you do voices and all this stuff.

Yeah. Not the case. No. But I got lucky that I listened to a book called The Favorite Sister, which I think you would like that too. It's like housewives, but there are, there's a murder. Oh, yes. Yeah. Yes, Jessica Knowles.

Yeah. Yes, Jessica Knowles. And so like that was, so, you know, eventually I realize like, oh, I have to, you know, I don't always have a free hand to hold a book on the subway and all this stuff. So then that's the start of me being like, what is this thing that's called Ottawa? let me listen to it and let me download books and oh i can listen to the perfect the favorite sister as i'm commuting back and forth and walking around and getting my groceries and so it just it's like my return back to reading is very much like a slow burn romance but like yeah now that

we're here we're here and it and it truly yeah but it really was this thing of and whenever i'm talking to people and they're like how do i read more i'm like read the stuff you like don't get caught up in what is the hot new pick what's on the new york times best i'm like genuinely what do you like and i'm like and if you start a book and you don't like it stop yes like just get out of it many books it is okay to d enough yes and i think that's the beautiful part and i think part of what i again like all roads lead back to audiobooks it's the reason i also like audiobooks that there's some books that start so slow yes that i have that i I'm like, somebody needs to speak this to me and keep this party moving.

Because if I have to go through, I'm like, I am bored by your words immediately. What are we doing? This is so long-winded. And so that's also been like another thing that has helped me now push myself into new genres is that I'm like, we're going to listen to it. That was the same for me. My genre is expanded. Because I was just talking to one of my friends.

I think for me, too, it works really well for me. with fantasy or anything that is a slow burn. It helps me get through the exposition and kind of to your point about I don't have ADHD, but it's similar to that. It's like, oh, I can get myself through the exposition while I'm doing the dishes or like I had like an hour long drive. And I was like, okay, I can start this book and I'll be like into it on my way back. I'll have gotten through two hours of it.

I'll be like into the book now. It helped a lot. There was a book I read it like last year, Playworld. Ooh, baby. That is a hefty character-driven narrative. And ladies and gents, last year was the first time I pushed myself to read character-driven stories rather than plot-driven. Ooh, baby, they are challenging because the whole time your brain is going, something's

going to happen. And then you realize, no, literally nothing's going to happen. We're just hanging out with a person. We're not going anywhere. There's not a surprise twist of like, and then Harold came back. Right. And on top of it, Playworld is like 700 plus pages or something. It's a chunky boy.

It's a hefty read. And I got it because it was the hot, buzzy book. And I said, this is about to be a DNF. And then I went, you know what? Let me switch over to the audiobook so that this reads that I'm more in like a play. and I can listen to the character go and then it became enjoyable. It was fun. And honestly, I was a little mad at myself

that I didn't just go back and relisten to everything from the beginning, but I was like, nope. I've put too much to chime in to the portions that I did read. But like, I think for me, like similar to yourself, it's like, it is the thing that helps me try new genres. Yeah. Find new authors I like get into new

just like narratives that might have been harder because like I'm not used to their writing style. I'm not used to how they like start. I mean, I will say the only person I'm definitively right now, I'm like never try to listen to them on audio because I've done it and it was hubris. That's what I learned. My ego knocked me back down. Tony Morrison, don't ever try to do. Don't ever try to listen.

It's also one we've kind of talked about. Like, if you are, you can't do it while you're doing. No, you can't do. Yeah. So you genuinely have to be in a meditative state. Yeah. You have to just put your headphones on and be like, I'm just going to. sit on this couch and let or like immersive reading like truly yeah and I think that's like

the cool part is like we are I'm joining this place at a time where we are in this renaissance where people are talking about stuff like immersive reading yeah you know we're we're you know different not context switching but like switching between different ways of enjoying the yeah mediums of how we partake in it you know there's so many multi-narrator versions now that it's like in the wake of you not having the new season of heated rivalry. You can listen to the two guys narrate the second book. You know, it's like there's just, there's so much to this world. And I think as somebody who's come from like media and entertainment for so long, it's, I think everybody's like congratulating me because they're like, oh my God, you're the book early. And I'm like, yes, but we are at this

cool space and time where now entertainment IP is looking to books and literature and all of of this to like move everything forward and give us original stories and give us tested content. And yeah, it's just a really cool time to like be in this world of just oral storytelling. Yes. Yeah. Well, with both of us talking about how it was harder to find to find books a while ago. Now I'm assuming a large part of your job is like getting to promote books and get them in front of people. So what does it feel like to get to do that now? It is the most exciting thing. Because you know, you and I are on the same page. We both are just like, we just want people to read more. Yes. We want people to push their empathy muscles. And so there is something so delightful.

I had a coworker from BET who said like the sweetest thing to me. And I shared it on Instagram what had happened. It was the kindest message ever. And I later talked to him, but he was like, this is so wonderful. You love books so deeply. Now they love you. And I was like, and when we were talking, I was like, later I said, I said, Renee, that was the kind of thing anybody's ever said to me. Like, that is so sweet. And I was like, what, how the hell did you say something so observant? And he goes, yeah, because you would start every Monday meeting by trying to talk us through

like a book that had come out that we should maybe option to make into a B2 Plus original, all this stuff. And I think what I love is I am now in this space that I get to. And I don't know how to say this. as a marketer, there is a level of science that you know around, at least for me, I will speak about myself as a marketer. I study behavioral science. Hopefully you do know this if you're marketers. Yes. Yeah. I'm like, God help us. But I think what, and we all learn this from Mad Men. There is a level of manipulation and moving people in a way that they don't even realize they're

being moved that I love about marketing. But what I really love is that I'm using my powers for good. Yes. And not evil. And so like, and I think that is a thing that I love about this. Like, I love that I am putting the full force of my brain and my evil geniusness as a marketer into what we're talking about, what we're thinking, or bringing it forward. But I get to do it in a medium that I would be proud to show my niece, that I'm proud to show my godchildren, that I'm not sitting there being like, oh no, you know, I sell cigarettes. It's like, no, I, I, I'm, I'm so lucky that the thing I do is, yeah, I'm just constantly trying to tell people like read stories, step into somebody else's shoes.

And so, yeah, it is like, it is the dopest thing. It's, you know, I was just on set the other day. And I was like watching an exchange between talent and this influencer we bought on. And it was like such a genuine, pure moment where this person was trying to offer encouragement to this couple because they kind of revealed something about them. themselves that if you follow them, people might follow them. This is a couple Alex and John. They were on TikTok and they would do all the stuff about like going to the parent office. And they ultimately lost their son in a miscarriage. And so did some really like, you know,

really shared that with people, a lot of dark humor. Now they have their rainbow baby. And this came up in the piece that we were filming with this talent. And it was this moment where this person, have been working my nerves. Now when people see the video, when it comes out, like, next month, they're going to be like, there we go. Even though talent had been working my nerves, it came very late. They were not difficult,

but they were not letting us put them in glam, all this stuff. But in this moment, this book that they were discussing allowed them to have a really off-camera because the only reason I know the extent of this conversation, which people are like, bitch, you were so creepy. We were in earpieces to hear what's happening on set. I forgot to turn my hot mic moment.

Yeah, it was a hot mic. Yes, more than people. For that reason. Yes. So I was, I happened to hear this really beautiful exchange. And to your thing, it's like, would this conversation have happened doing this couple and this very famous man? Had it not been for this book? Yeah.

Or, you know, we shut. Because the book is about this person being a parent. and we were like, they were interacting with kids. And it was like in this moment, my opinion about them. Yeah. Because of a book got transformed because in real time, I got to see them not switch or code switch, but I got to see them, one, talking about something they were really passionate about. But it was like, to that thing, it's like, it seems so silly.

But it's like, I've been on editorial fashion shoots where everybody is truly talking like, we are in the ER. and you're like, a dress from Scaparelli is late to set. Yeah. I think we'll all be okay. Yeah. I think we can survive. I think if we have one less look, we'll be fine.

It's very, I would compare it to like the way people probably feel when they watch White Lotus and people are complaining about like, this, this trend count is lower than I thought. It's like that sometimes where you are like, this feels a little ludicrous. Like the, and at the time, I would also joke with people and they would say like, oh, this trend is so hot. And I would go, that trend's not hot. That trend has a strong affiliate number tied to it. So the reason we're all trying to get you to buy this like Gap swayed bag is because Gap has the best affiliate commission. You know, it was like I very much got to see how the sausage got made.

And again, more things professors told me. I had an undergrad professor. I was a sports broadcasting double major. And I remember she said to one of my buddies and we were like, we loved it. Like, we would lose our minds. Like, and part of the classes, they would take you. We have every major sport in Miami at the time. So they would take you to games.

You'd be in the press room, all this stuff. My buddy, Dylan, and I would just be, like, losing our minds in the press box. We'd be having the time of our lives. We'd be eating the chicken fingers. And finally one day, Dr. Scott came over and she said, no, it was actually Michelle Kaufman. That's who it was. This woman was a writer for the Miami Herald, all this stuff. Sports writer, huge career.

Married to Dave Barry, actually. Oh, wow. Yeah. And so she comes up to my buddy, Dylan, and I, and she goes, how much do you guys love this? And we were like, this? Like, we love doing it. And she goes, no, how much do you guys love sports? Mm.

And we were like, oh, we love it. It's like the great. And, you know, I'm like, it's human interest. It's story. It's all this stuff. And Dylan's like, I love the Yankees. Like, I want to be a Yankees beat reporter. All this stuff.

And she goes, I'm going to tell you something that might be hard to hear. And she goes, if you genuinely love this, you might not want to do it as your job. I know. And we were like, what? And she goes, because one day, you're going to be in Australia at the Australian Open covering Sabayanka and Serena Williams. And we were like, okay, sweet. And she goes, and your only thought will be, they just need to hurry up.

Somebody needs to win this game. I know. It'll become. Because I'm ready. And she was like, that's the thing. And I will say, as somebody who loves fashion, there did get to be a point where you get to see how much the sausage. is made that you're like, oh, this is making me not like it now. Yeah.

This is making me kind of not care about this now. Like, oh, no, this is taking a, I was very geeked about this. And now I do not care. And I think what's funny, and if people are listening to being like, uh-oh, but you love books, I think what makes this work is because we medium switch. Yeah. So for me, I'm like, if at any point I get tired of audiobooks and talk, I'm like, guess what? Kindle's coming out.

The physical book is coming out. There are other ways for me to enjoy story. If at any point, I'm like, I'm so sick of hearing the, this is audible guy. I'm telling me. I don't want to hear them. I don't want to hear them anymore. Get them on face.

Go home. But it's like, I think that's the interesting part about books is if I get tired of, there's no way I'll get tired of books because maybe it's a genre switch. Maybe it's the medium switch. Yeah, like maybe it's a, maybe it's a cadence switch. Maybe it's sitting down with, you know, re-reading some childhood favorites from the beginning. You know, it's like, I think that is the part that never made me nervous walking into this. Because it was the same way when I worked in film.

When I worked in film, never got. Like, I'd be having one of the worst days and, you know, having to pitch something to Tyler Perry and just knowing I'm whiffing it the whole time. Or like, walking around the lot, just having the worst day of my life professionally. trying to like give notes to Merrill Street for Florence Foster Jenkins. That is a real thing I had to do. I was mortified. I literally opened that call. And I said, Miss Street, I don't have no business giving you these notes.

Oh my God. But I'm going to read them from the studio. I apologize in advance. And I want you to know this. Yeah, I said, I want you to know that I know. None of this matters. I'm going to say these words. Ignore everything I'm saying.

Because these are by people who've never acted a day in their lives. Yeah. Be blessed, ma'am. It's like I used to have some of the heart, but it really was. I never had a moment where I walked down in the lot and didn't think, wow, this is a thing that I love. You know, I watched the studio and I'm like, Seth Rogen has nailed the way that feels. And that's the way I compare this. It's like I very much get to be in the thing that I love. I mean, hell, I'm about to next week I have to work on a microdrama for a really big celebrity.

And when I thought initially going into it, Issa Rae just did. Yeah. And I went into it being like, oh, it's like a promo for it. And everybody was like, no, you're, you're going to be on set helping to direct it. And I was like, oh, my God. And aside from books, like Kate knows this. If you guys haven't listed in the manifestation Monday, it was basically Jesse and I meeting up and just daydreaming on microphones.

And both of you guys. And here we are. And that is why I cite that, because when Jesse and I would talk and I would say, like, I want to produce things. I want to make stuff. I want to make, like, film. Like, one day I want to make, like, a film. I want to do huge shit.

I want to, like, I dreams bigger than I could bound. And honestly, again, I blame books for teaching me about, like, quantum physics and how to, you know, dream bigger and want more. And so, yeah, it's also those things where, like, I am, yeah, this is one of those weeks where as exhausted as I am, I'm very much like, oh, I'm sitting inside of a blessing that I, I prayed for so hard that it is almost wild to me to like, yeah, because to be on set yesterday, and for the first time to hear somebody to be like, Miss Green, would you like some water? I was like, what is this? What is happening? Yeah, it was also weird because one of the kids that,

I mean, I say kids, even though they're not that much younger than me, but like one of the kids that works for me, he was on set and he made a mistake. And it was just also this beautiful moment where I was like, oh my God, I get to be the non-toxic boss. Yes. And so like in that moment when he was like having a bug out, I was like, hey, hey, hey, eyes on me. Calm down. And I was like, first of all, we fail fast. We fail quickly around here. I said second of all, the only way this is an actual failure is if you learn nothing from this. If you stop. Yeah. I said if you stop, if you take nothing away from this, it was a failure. I said also we all learned a valuable lesson today. We all got we all got a lot of information and I said and also like and so I even told him before I left I said you have till the end of today to mope to feel sorry for yourself to beat yourself up all the things and I said I need you when you wake up tomorrow yeah to pull it together and we live to fight another day but it's like it's all it's it's it's very much the embodiment of the yeah of so many things that I I wished for and hoped for and it just also happens to be wrapped up in a bookish bow

So for most people, they're like, oh, this makes all the sense in the world. Of course is what you're doing. But like, I really don't think people understand. It's like, yeah, it's a combination of so many things I wished and hoped for. Yeah. It makes me that quote that's like, how lucky you might be tired from the things I, like, wished and prayed for. Truly. And I also, you love it.

You can be tired. And I also, I think having a company that, at least for me, and I'm sure people are like, it's an Amazon company. Yeah. Guys, I would be very clear with you. Amazon provides great technical foundation. Yeah. Audible is very audible. Like, I knew what was up when the founder of our company.

Amazon bought it, right? Yes, Amazon acquired it. Now, what's nuts is Don Katz. This should tell you everything you need to know. He was his big mentor during his time at Syracuse, I believe, was Ellison. Ralph Ellison. Wow. Yeah. I said on my tour, I go, what is it about, what is it about white people that got taught by great black luminaries? And they just keep being menaces to Jeff Bezos. What's going on around here? And I was like, because McKenzie Scott was under Tony Morrison. Yeah. Don Katz learned under Ralph Ellison. I mean, we have like a whole initiative where we're giving back to the city of Newark. I mean, you walk around the office and conference rooms are named after famous black people.

from Newark, New Jersey. So you're walking into the Lauren Hill conference room. You're walking into the like, I mean, it's just, I mean, we have a dedication, a whole thing called Black 365, listen Black 365, which is about like listening to black authors. We have a whole indigenous authors, uh, fellowship that we're about to start running. We're bringing in first time indigenous authors who otherwise wouldn't get an opportunity with publishers to like publish their first book with us, whole thing.

Incredible underpinning under all of that. Yeah. And I think also as someone who cares about showing up places fully as myself, yeah. There is something very empowering about being somewhere where I can lead professionally and live by that Sula quote, which is when they decided they could be neither white nor male, they decided to be something else.

And the sheer fact that I am at a place where I can fully be something else. Yeah. And that is actually expected of me, encouraged, necessary for us to make any kind of of progress it's yeah it's hands down like yeah it's just a perfect fit across the board yeah is there anything that surprised you or something you weren't expecting that you can talk about yeah i was shocked how few people read books at all i was i was so yeah i was wondering about that when you were saying something about like that you do i was like i bet not everyone does yeah and and that's why I talked about the Karen thing because I think for me, I am like, oh, this is what we do.

You got stubby in this. And so I very much thought everybody is this voracious reader. Independent stores. Like you think like everyone there. And on top of it, guys. One of the perks of this job is unlimited audible credits. I was going to bring that up. So like in my mind.

Because of an unlimited account now, guys. I'm back being assistant number three. I'm leaving out of here with something. I got a handful of books every day. You post a book, add it to library. I see it someplace else. Add it to library. Oh, the Booker Prize has their short list.

Add them all to my library. Like, I'm out here like Pokemon. I'm like, got to catch them all. I'm like, I can read everything. I'm not even kidding. I turn to my partner and I go, oh my God, I can finally listen to Emily Henry's translation of the Odyssey before the movie. Like, I'm just like, how is everybody not engaging with this?

That's a great idea. You're welcome. Everybody's welcome. I've also heard she has the more interesting translation. She's the first woman, I think, also to ever do the translation. Probably. You know, my beloved Ryan Holiday featured her on the pod, on his pod. Yeah. And then again, also shout out to Ryan Holiday for being another reason I got into reading, because yeah, Homeboy would quote ancient text in his, like, you know, his friggin' YouTube videos or Instagram shorts. And I was like, to me, that's the height of intelligence. Yes. It's not just the, and listen, we know Russell Brandy, like a big word. But like, I always thought like Tim Gunn and his like incredible vocabulary was just so sexy. Yes. And then like to watch Ryan Holiday and he'd be like, well, Epic T just once said that I was like, that is, that is so fucking cool to be able to. Sorry. Oh, no, go ahead. One of my favorite things about. I, of course, don't have a book on my desk right now.

is when he does his like bookwrecks in like is that his bookstore that he's yes his book store the painted porch like someone's like calling him with the camera it's also yeah and he's like he's like this right here you got to read this yeah he's like this is really good because blah blah blah and then he like he like doesn't look at the camera it's so casual like right for somebody who yeah i've always like sir these are videos for the internet what are we doing he's just like here i love what people are like can you slow down i'm like this is also how book people talk they're just more friends. Like, this is good.

You should read this. This is incredible. So anyway, you want something on eco-terrorism? Yes. But, like, I always thought. His setup, one day I'm going to have, like, this is one of anyone who doesn't know when he does his podcast, it's like in the back of his bookstore.

And it's just books. It's spectacular. It's like, literally books on all of the walls. It is. He is living. I, you know, I'm, I would say friendly. I was going to say I'm friends with Ryan. I'm friendly with Ryan.

Nice. Nothing makes me happier than when I give him a book recommendation. He's like, I'll have to check that out. And I'm like, oh, that's so cool. Because my dad did his podcast and I did his read to lead course in lockdown. Yeah. Oh my gosh.

I did his read to lead course. Both of those. It's incredible. His read to lead course, incredible. Okay. It is better than people think. I think you would love it too. I do that.

And then I tell him about how much the course meant to me, how much I enjoyed it and about my dad, which then leads to him being like, we should have your dad on my podcast. I'm like, you know what me on your podcast. I love you. I'm like, please help me. I'm way more interesting. So, but like, I just think there, I think that is like the height of intelligence. So I'm always shocked when I'm talking to my coworkers.

And I'm like, well, you know. And then also I'm intentionally talking about like the hottest, busiest releases because I'm like, okay, if you don't have time to like listen to, you know, one night in Brooklyn by Zocci Gomez. It was so good. I'm literally listening to that now. That's a whole other thing. That was recommended. She does setting. Here's the thing.

It was recommended to me by one of our story tenders. I will explain that later. She did a fantastic job and recommended that. But I'm always shocked when I'm in a meeting and I'm like, oh, has anybody else started yesterday year? Even though I finished it. And people are like, I don't have time to listen. I'm like, what are you talking about?

What are you talking about? I'm like, now I know for a fact people have lost their damn minds. Because what do you mean you can't listen to an audio book? You get it for free. you have time one of the again this is i'm not going to say her name but there was a girl i met during my intros with my team uh-huh and this girl said i wish we had like set aside time to read i can i said and so she had been talking and her dog was in the background i said you have a dog you don't want you don't listen while you walk your dog exactly and she was like yeah but i mean like just

more time i'm the worst boss to have on shit like that because they're all like you know i'm like working this job and I'm like I just like have no time to read I'm like okay let me break it down for you you're like I know you're not here 24 hours yeah I'm like I got this job I got I'm a co-host on a podcast I do other people's podcast I'm on two boards I have one giant Shetland pony dog and I got a little badass tiny gremlin dog I love that he seems so huge because he seems tiny dog and he is but see you have big dogs so you'll be like oh that's that's where it keeps me I have aging parents. I have all these things. And I said, girl, I am the worst person to tell you have no time to read. And I said, even with all of that, yes, I'm still putting these numbers up.

Yes. So that was like, that has been. I have to be careful about that myself with people who say they don't have time for stuff. Because one, there's two things. She's saying she wants more time. So in that case, it's like, okay, well, how about I show you some ways? But I have to be careful. Oh, I go full black mother. where I'm like, I don't want to be mean to people, but I am judgmental sometimes. Oh, I know I am. I'm like, do you know how much I get done? You know how much how much I fit?

I am my mother's child. The way I will hit people, like, because it is. It's so black mom of me to be like, well, you got time to watch Bridgeton, don't you? Yes. Yes. You got time. And I think we also are the worst people to say that too because then it's met. Like, if you're like, really?

Like, I find time. Then people are like, well, you know, I just love watching TV. I'm like, I know exactly what's happening on Housewives of Atlanta. Right. I know exactly what's happening in Rhode Island. I know what's happening on 90-day Fiance and not just one season. I've been following one couple

from before the 90 days into 90-day fiancé after the 90 days. So the TV ain't the problem. And that's where then my thing is it comes back to maybe you haven't found something you like. I agree. Because you're hooked.

You want to pick it back up as soon as you can. You never want to stop. But the thing I mentioned about the storytender, So during the entire month of May, we had a, yes, we had a bookless bookstore. It was called Audubus Storyhouse. And so we had storytenders in our bookless bookstore where they were like bartenders, where you would tell them what your taste was, what you're into. And then they would make book recommendations.

Because I'm the bookish person, this is where it really came through. My manager was like, hey, we one day were like on FaceTime or on Zoom talking. and he goes, I want to see if these people are any good. He was like, everybody keeps saying they're good. And he was like, I want to see if she's really as good as I think she is. And I was like, oh, okay. And he goes, you actually read. That's how little people read around here that people are like, wild.

We have a whole editorial team and people are like, well, the editorial team reads. And I'm like, the rest of us can also read the books. What is happening? Do you all think they are the only people? Many genres and tropes. And so literally this girl. I gave her like some things I was into. I said I love lit-fix satire.

I love women behaving badly. And I really loved because I had just finished Imani Thompson's honey. Oh, what a what a fun psychotic ride. Right. And from the get-dow.

It's so unique, even though it's a good for her story for the most part. It's a good for her. And it's like, it's also very catathing. It's always so, I've been very into like academia, but not dark academia.

It's, I compared to like girly academia because like girl dinner was like that. Yep. I would even argue catapysis is a little bit of in my opinion, like pastel academia because you're like, girl, what? You're in hell talking about school? Like, what are we doing? Yes. But it was, I had told her all of that and she suggested, people are going to be like,

you know of these. She suggested one night in Brooklyn, beloved, and Margot's got money. problems. So what I want people to understand is, although these were not three books I had never heard of, they were three books I haven't read, but they've been on my TBR. So I told my manager, I'm actually genuinely impressed because she did manage to identify three books that I've been, that have been sitting on my TVR that I wasn't sure if I wanted to start yet. I was like, you know, and you know, when you're a mood reader, you really are like, what I'm in the five for today? And so, yeah, I was really impressed by that.

But yeah, it's, yeah, reading has been my superpower. And it was, it's funny to now be at this place. I mean, I have a, when we finish recording this, I'm guest lecturing for my undergrad alma mater. Mm-hmm. Wild. And like, the professor was like, I would love for you to give advice. And it seems so trite.

And it feels like I'm saying it because of my job. But I really am going to be like reading is the thing that helps also. with a lot of these informationals. Like I said, when I got back into reading, here I was interning at Paramount. And I'm asking to meet with the CFO, the CMO, this woman, Alana Mayo, who's now going on to run Michael B. Jordan's production company.

Oh, wow. And I would sit across from them, stole this from Ron Holiday, and I'd say, what are you reading? Like, what's a book that you absolutely love? Fiction, nonfiction, it doesn't matter that, like, truly changed your life. Alana Mayo is the person that got me into James Baldwin.

And then what that allowed me to do is then, Two weeks later, when I finally read the fire next time, or the fire this time, I then was able to follow up with this woman with an email. Same thing through my entire, like, when people are like, how did you meet the CMO of Riot? I'm like, first of all, I'm a sweaty ass try hard. I'm so damn shalant. I've never been nonchalant about my professional ambition a day in my life. When people were shitting on emigreed, I said, I'm sorry, guys, I fear I am her target audience. I fear I am a girl boss through and through.

I was like, I don't know what to tell you guys. And so. And again, it's all about balance and everyone can be where they want to be. Exactly. I'm like, that's feminism, guys. I think you missed the point of Mona Lisa's smile. It's like some of us want to be the most ambitious, crazy psychos ever. Some of us want to stay home and enjoy our kids.

Some of us want no kids, no jobs. And we want to be a feral gremlin in the woods and have a coven. I love that too. Hopefully your name is Agatha Harkness. But like that has also been my superpower. And I plan on even saying that today in the lecture of like it has. And I again, intuitive things that seem so obvious to me. I said this not too long ago to a girlfriend.

And she was like, oh my God, that's brilliant. Where I said, yeah, I would always ask people. My go-to question at the end of every information, no matter who it was, was like, what's a book you're reading? And I said sometimes I would name a book I read. So I would write a note to myself, put a reminder in my calendar, follow up this person and tell them that you loved, you know, think again by Adam Grant, what you're got out of it. You know, I would reread it sometimes through the lens of like, oh, I have read, what did they,

what do I think they maybe potentially gained from this? And that's how I got cool Ryan Holiday. Is that I reached out after the course to just say, this is what the, I read one of the books in the list. This is what it did for me. Is this why you included it? Yeah. It is truly my superpower. It is the thing that let me, and I thought it was super normal to do that of like to reengage people, to have authentic and real conversations. And so if yeah, it's it really is like reading has been my superpower for so long and now it is literally my job. Yeah. That's why I always tell people with bookish events, like a huge amount of those people are introverts too. But literally in the context of a bookish event, you can ask anyone what they're reading right now, what they just finished. Like it's actually

so easy to have conversations with other bookish people, even if you're all introverts. Yeah. And it's and it's so beautiful. But it really is like a beautiful thing when you realize the power of what story holds. And I think especially when it comes to, at least for me, audiobooks, it's like the origin of story is oral storytelling. And there's that part. Yeah. And at a time where we don't listen to each other, we're not taking in what the other person's saying. I'm like, it would actually behoove everyone to take some time in their reading stack to push their listening comprehension. Like I am now here. Kate and I are part of the big, big book agenda. We are part of a big book. It is what we are pushing. And I think everybody needs to put at least one audio book in their like reading so that you can push your listening comprehension, push yourself to be able to sit and be and just have to listen to someone else talk to you. Mm-hmm. I remember, um, I know we need to wrap it up, but there was, I remember who I don't even know who it was I guess this is funny I keep saying I remember and I'm No story of my life imagine how I feel when you're a friggin memory athlete people are like you're like I don't know the name of that thing and people are like somebody yeah yeah you're like I wasn't using my athletics in this one case exactly I'm like okay calm down yeah like it's a regular Thursday chill out yeah I saw a ticot a couple of

years ago where someone was talking about how when books are read to you. It's also the only time that you hear like completely grammatically correct like sentences. And I hadn't thought about it. And then when she said it, then I was like, oh, I do know what that's like though. Because if you have ever edited content for social media or pulled a clip for social and then you have to do the captions, you start to realize that conversational speech, there are things that like you say that are not grammatically correct or you'll even like jump thoughts and it makes sense if you're hearing someone speak. But if you just read the captions, you'd be like, wait, this doesn't actually totally make sense.

So it is like I always thought that was a fascinating thing that she pointed out too is it's the only time that you hear perfect, I mean perfect quote unquote. Language is flexible. But it's also the only time you're hearing. like really correctly, uh, created sentences. I love that. Yeah. So fascinating.

This is also the world's great, the cool emerge. Listen, you know I'm going to try to convince you to join ACX now since you've done audio narration. Oh, yeah. Well, I am. I did, I produced it through there. So I am signed up through there. I should have known.

It's okay. I feel like I had one other question, but maybe not. I mean, also the comedy for this audience. if people are like, and now I've listened, I have questions. Guess what, guys? I'm always here. Yeah. I'll always come on this show.

That's the difference. She's, makes me, basically. NBA. You can also ask her. Yeah. Send me all your bookish questions, guys. Find me on the interwebs and just DM them to me. Because who knows, you might end up, unfortunately, having this person that is me on your podcast all

the time because you sent a DM. Yes.