Bookwild - Manifestation, Murder, and the Cults of the 1920s: Olesya Lyuzna's Liars in Paradise

Episode Date: August 4, 2026

In this episode, I talk with Olesya Lyuzna about the second book in her Ginny Dugan series Liars in Paradise. Listen to hear all about: The roots of modern self-help, manifestation, and MLM-style thinking stretch back to the 1920s. Olesya shares how historical figures like Napoleon Hill and the era's get-rich-quick culture inspired the novel's sinister organization, Echelon.  Sometimes throwing away an entire draft is the best writing decision. Olesya discusses scrapping a nearly finished manuscript, rebuilding the story from the ground up, and how the rewrite created a much stronger mystery centered on Jack being framed. Historical fiction can feel incredibly relevant because human behavior doesn't change. We discuss how periods of uncertainty—after war, during economic booms, or amid social upheaval—create fertile ground for cults, scams, conspiracy thinking, and charismatic leaders. Real places often make the best fictional settings. Olesya shares how a supposedly haunted Long Island mansion, Winfield Hall, became the inspiration for Echelon's headquarters, complete with strange history, ghost stories, and Gilded Age excess. Great mystery series let their characters carry emotional scars. Rather than resetting Ginny after each case, Olesya discusses intentionally letting previous losses and evolving relationships shape every investigation, making the series feel more emotionally authentic. All the Bookwild Links:Check Out the Bookwild SubstackSubscribe to Bookwild on YouTubeGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramCheck Out Author Social Media Packages Follow Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mbaErin Ashley @bellametaphor 

This week I got to talk with Alessia Leuzna about the second in her Ginny Duggan series. It's called Liars in Paradise. It is oddly, timely, even though it does take place about 100 years ago. So this is what it's about. When a deadly massacre at a New York gambling club leaves Detective Jack Crawford framed for murder, he and his partner, Jenny Duggan, race to uncover the real killers before Jack is executed for the crime. Their investigation leads them into a sinister secret society where masks. rituals, hidden agendas, and Jack's own mysterious past, blur the line between truth and manipulation.

This one is such a fun historical thriller. I am such a Ginny fan. I'm such an Alessia fan. And I think that you will be too. So that being said, let's hear from Alessia. I am super excited to talk about Liars in Paradise. And I'm just excited that there is a second book with Ginny. So thank you for writing it. And thank you for coming back on. Alessia. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having me. So crazy this year kind of flew by. I think last year I was sort of teasing the concept of book two and then here we are. Yeah. I mean, I'm here for it. Especially with series, something I'm always interested in is like, was there anything that surprised you about writing this one or was there anything that was just like different and you weren't

expecting it to be different? Yeah. Well, I'd always intended for Ginny to have a series. So, I wrote book one with that in mind, even though I didn't have the second one really plotted at that time. One thing I was really surprised by was what a time jump it was in my personal life. Because I wrote the first book when I was 25. This was, you know, peak pandemic. And it wasn't published until I turned 30, which is, you know, just five years. But I think there was a lot of change in many different life experiences in those five years. And so I was writing the second book five years later. And I think that sort of ended up being reflected in liars because glitter is kind of an endless party.

It was very much, you know, wish fulfillment during the pandemic. And then with liars, I think it maybe got a lit a little bit deeper, more emotional, maybe a bit more sad, I guess, in some words. Because, you know, I'd also changed and developed in those five years. So a bit of a change there. I also, I would say I was surprised by how difficult it was. Because many authors have told me, you know, the sophomore slump will hit you, get ready, book two is the worst thing that will ever happen to you. And I thought, you know, they're exaggerating. It's fine.

Right. But yeah, you know, I'm usually a pretty quick drafter. But with the second book, I don't know. I feel like I was very aware of, you know, the attention and how the first book was being received. I was reading reviews. I was getting in my head about it. And then I reached a point with the liars where I had a full draft ready. It was a couple months until it was due. And I just totally scrapped it because I'm like, oh my gosh, it's all wrong. I have to change it. So everyone thought I was crazy, my friends in particular, but I think it was probably the best thing that happened

because I made many changes that were really useful to the plot. Yeah. So yeah, a lot has happened in this year but I feel like I'm a better writer for it and a better person maybe but yeah so did you change like major structural things oh my gosh so it really was like quite a rewrite yeah yeah there were there were some things that I kind of miss from the first draft there was this one um apothecary themed speak easy in particular where they would ask like what ails you and the alcohol was the cure like the various cocktails so yeah that got cut but many other pieces changed for the better and like the whole setup around you know jack being framed and jenny having to prove as innocence that came in the new draft oh wow okay so one of my biggest fears of all time

is being framed for something and put in jail for something i didn't do i don't know like that specifically is the one but like i have nightmares about it if i'm not keeping up with my oCD i get frees out by it. So what drew you? Like what had you kind of wanting to write from that perspective? Like especially since it sounds like it was kind of a change to switch to that. Yeah. I think with my first draft,

I realized it didn't feel quite as personal to Ginny. And that's always my goal. Because I don't know. I like to put my characters through a lot of suffering, I guess, for the reader's benefit. And it just felt like a good setup because, you know, Jack had this whole dark past that he said he'd moved on from, but, you know, Ginny doesn't really know him that well. So I thought that was the perfect event to sort of shake Ginny's confidence in

Jack and maybe also Jack's confidence in himself because it would bring back all these memories and his past. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, attention was there from the get-go. That's what I think when I interviewed you last year, I was like, I was coming to the realization of like, historical fiction can be just as like thrilling there was like people were still being people back then like just because it was forever ago didn't mean they weren't getting into shit um and so then like as i was reading the second one i was like oh yeah you kind of gave me the like in entry into like oh there can be so much intrigue just because it's historical fiction so i was having a lot of fun with it um the other thing that was so fascinating to me is i just so happened

to have been reading like a nonfiction book that was talking about how really how like pyramid schemes and new thought networks have have been around for a really long time like way longer than people realize um and so i thought it was even more fascinating that you kind of brought an organization like that into this story so what drew you to writing about those did you have to do any other research like what got you going there Yeah, I would love to get that book recommendation, by the way. Yes. So it's called, it's called Live, Laugh, Love by, oh, I know, it's fantastic.

I want to make sure I get the subtitle right, but it's by Kristen Kobiz Dumay, who wrote Jesus and John Wayne. And so Live, Laugh, Love is much more focused on the secret history of white Christian women and the world they made and it like legit talks about like a lot of evangelical Christianity was modeled around these systems as well where it's like if you don't believe in yourself enough that's why you're failing and you need to bring people you need to convert people to the church and if you're good and perfect and churchly you will have wealth so like prosperity gospel so the book like love the title live laugh love but what she does a really fantastic job of is um

really showing how Christian evangelical Christianity and capitalism, like, grew up together in the U.S. So I had just been reading that. I love that. Oh, my gosh. That's my next thing right away. It's fantastic. It comes out September 15th. I had an arc, but there will be an interview with her that will come out on September 22nd, I think.

Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's your fictional world, though. Yes. Yes. It's definitely a topic that has intrigued me for a while.

I think it started with a personal angle. So I like to pick themes that I'm not 100% certain about because the last thing I want to do is, you know, get kind of preachy and tell people this is what I believe and this is what you should be able to. So with me, there's a bit of an inner tension, I guess, because I think of myself as a, you know, lifelong skeptic. I am fairly agnostic, et cetera. but at the same time, I have definitely dabbled in the world of manifestation, law of attraction, probably listened to many hours of, you know, like positive affirmations on

YouTube. And there was also time in my life where I spent quite a bit of money on psychics and terror readers. Yeah. So I'm constantly kind of, you know, like wrestling between those two elements. And so this book gave me a way to investigate that further. And yeah, you're right. I mean, manifestation, all of that feels very, very modern, but it's been around for so long. And I was really curious to see, you know, what it was like in the 1920s and maybe early 30s.

It really flourished then. And a couple, couple reasons that I can kind of see. So you had the Great War right before. You had soldiers coming back, lots of trauma there and maybe, you know, not as many jobs, not as many opportunities, a need to, like, believe in something. Yes. At the same time, it is an age of prosperity. The market's going to keep going up forever, you know. And so that, you know, there are some genuinely good opportunities there,

but also a natural opening for grifters and, you know, all kinds of get rich quick schemes. You know, this is around the time when Charles Ponzi was selling his fake land investments in Florida. And we know what we call those schemes nowadays. So, yeah, it's an. age of like anything goes, anything feels possible. You can be famous for a day through Hollywood or by, you know, killing someone or going on trial. So a lot of that. So it felt like a really

interesting environment to explore these like self-help and positive thinking movements. I think there were two points of direct inspiration for echelon, the organization in my book. One of them is historical. The other is more modern. So the first is kind of that world of 20s self-help. In particular, I read a lot about Napoleon Hill. I don't know if you know, there's this book Think and Grow Rich. It's all over the place still. Yes, it is. And not many people know, but he got his start as a bit of a con artist in the 20s, actually. So some examples of his business ventures are there was a lumber company that was charged with mail fraud. He launched an MLM at an automobile college.

where students were asked to sell courses for a commission and kind of to move up in the structure. He had a magazine that he used to launder funds that were intended for a veterans charity. Allegedly got his first job by covering up a murder that was committed by the guy who previously had the job. Now, hard to confirm, but an interesting character. Yeah, yeah. In 1925, he takes all of those learnings from his various business ventures, and he publishers an eight-volume self-help book called The Law of Success, which brings him lots of money. He buys property. He buys a Rolls-Royce, which was the thing to do at the time.

And he basically makes it, loses all the money, but then picks himself back up again by the 30s, and that's when he comes out with Think and Grow Rich, which kind of takes the concepts from the first eight-volume self-help book, condenses them and sort of leans into a more, I wouldn't say like maybe mystical or religious angle to a tiny bit. He focused on like you need to have unwavering faith in success, a burning desire to get it. There's also a bit of an element of auto suggestion. So you can kind of see those elements coming into play. So I like the idea of someone with that kind of background becoming this cult figure, this influencer and still influencing people a hundred years later. I went on Goodreads. All the reviews are like, wow, you know, save your life.

Yeah, we work with a lot of like what you would kind of think of as like podcast bros or business bros when I'm not getting to do this wonderful other version with book people. They talk, I mean, and how to win friends and influence people. Like these books that are over 100 years old, they like swear by as kind of like their Bibles for business essentially. Yeah. Yeah. It's wild.

It's insane. And nobody really looks into the history. And I mean, the other question here is maybe a grifter is the right person to teach you about business because there is a grift in the business world. So yes. To say. Yeah. Had another really interesting thing happened when you were talking about how war creates. I think it's also like it creates uncertainty and like in all kinds in like the obvious ways.

And then there's just the way that like even once the war is over but then like the men are coming back, that's even like. that's even like changing the status quo and making things feel different, essentially. And I coincidentally interviewed someone named Alessia Salnikova Gilmore, who wrote a book called The Fortune Tellers of Rue de Rue. And it's 1920s Paris, but she was saying the same thing that like people got even more interested in fortune tellers or like doing seances and stuff because, there had been so much death, there had been so much uncertainty, people had been displaced. And so like when there's a lot of that happening in history, it's kind of the perfect time for that kind of

stuff to come in. But then it just matters if the person has like good or evil intentions, essentially, which is life. Yeah, true, true. It's a bit of a toss up there. Yeah, so it is fascinating, the way that kind of shows up. Yeah, yeah. Um, you clearly show you. Clearly show you. off or happening in Paris at the same time. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, there was a lot of really rich historical material to pull on.

But then the second influence is a bit more modern. And if you're kind of familiar with this scandal, you might have recognized some elements. So I got pretty deep into the nexium rabbit hole a couple years back. And so there are quite a few parallels here. What fascinated me about that was that the leader, Keith Reneery, was so. ordinary. He was just some guy if you look at him, but there were all these stories that, you know, he's the smartest person in the world. He can sense your energy field. So, you know, that was the argument where if his lover cheated on him, he would know that happened that would impair his energy.

So all that was interesting. I also borrowed the show business angle because many of the people who signed up for Nexium were, you know, actors or people in the entertainment field in the arts. And I think that's not an accident because working in the arts is so unpredictable. I know that really well as an author. You know, things can go up. They can to go down. You can get an email that changes your life, all that. So I feel like it's very easier to sort of prey on people in that community where you can, you know, sell the idea of attracting success through self-mastery. And so, yeah, I wanted to bring that in. I also brought in some of the elements of control that were used in the nexium cult. And it was really interesting to show how someone might get seduced by that kind of organization and also what might

make it difficult to get out once you're in there yes yeah that the HBO doc that they did and I think they came back into a second season wasn't that what it was for nexium I think yeah was wild like it just it is fascinating it's fascinating how even like that was making me think of like scientology similarly like attracts a lot of people in in Hollywood but probably arts elsewhere as well but it's kind of like anywhere there's this like attempt to accumulate power you're going to kind of get like famous people pulled over as well I think I think that does tend to just happen yeah yeah it's also the most convenient too because you know someone with some level of exposure um right also be a really good spokesperson.

So it's dual purpose there. Yeah, it really is. So you do have like most of echelon or like most of the stuff that is like a part of that plot is happening in a town in Long Island. So we're not in Harlem for this one. So was there something about like research that made you think it needed to take place there or did you have like any other reason that you were like, let's kind of explore? Yeah.

So two reasons for that shift. Because again, first draft had them staying on Manhattan. But I really wanted to make, so place the cult in a more secluded area, very insular, kind of very cut off from the rest of the world. So I felt that a smaller town would work better than, you know, Harlem, there's nightlife, there are people walking around. It's kind of easier to get out or, you know, get help. And then I was also inspired by this one particular story. actually, sort of a ghost story in Long Island. So Eschelon's headquarters are actually grounded in a real place that exists today.

It's this Long Island mansion called Winfield Hall. It was initially built for Frank Woolworth. You might know him as the guy who created Woolworths, which was a chain of five and dime stores across the country back in the 20s. He got very rich. He built the whole mansion in like six months, which I think is incredible. And it's massive. You can do that nowadays. No, no. It's just a chateau. And the way I found out about it, it was kind of a happy accident.

I found this book by Monica Randall. So she was a lady who was really interested in kind of history. And she lived in Long Island in the 60s, actually. And that was around the time when they were bulldozing many of these mansions built in the 20s. So with artwork inside, furniture, et cetera, it's crazy. Like so much character was getting lost. And she wanted to save it. So she got especially, you know, kind of obsessed with Winfield Hall. And she would smuggle out the furniture from that building at night and just kind of save it. And then she ended up marrying this guy who bought the property and then moving much of that back in.

And it was, it's a very interesting book. I mean, it's kind of, I don't know how much I would trust the narrator because there are, you know, ghost stories and all that, but just the way she described the building, the hauntings, and sort of the history made me really want to set a book there. Some fun facts about Woolworth during his lifetime in the 20s. He thought he was the living reincarnation of Napoleon, which seems kind of common, actually. So his bedroom was a reproduction of Napoleon's bedroom. He had all, you know, the furniture imported. He, his daughter, one of his three daughters, Edna, fell in love, allegedly, with one of his business associates who wasn't a very nice guy.

And she died under mysterious circumstances. This was at the Plaza Hotel back in New York, but many people think it was a suicide. But the sort of myth that took place was that very same night. Woolworth was having a party on Long Island. There was a storm out of nowhere. And a bolt of lightning came through the open window, struck the mantelpiece. And so the one with him and his family's portraits. And it spared the mantelpiece.

Everyone was fine except for a crack through his daughter, Edna's face. Oh my gosh. So really, really spooky. And then in the 60s, you know, the place, traded hands a lot. It was made into like a charm school for models. There were rumors of strange hauntings, whispering and empty rooms. Some students died tragically apparently. Now, most of this is not fully confirmed, so, you know, take it with a grain of salt. But I thought it was interesting to, you know, set the organization in this already sort of haunted building. And that would make all the

other strange occurrences have this additional, you know, flavor. Yeah. That is, it's so cool that you can like find those like real things to kind of to place your story. Does it make it, does it end up making it easier for you to like write it since you can even have like the visual, not that there's tons of photos as I'm looking here, but does it make like the visual part of it easier to write? Oh, definitely. Yeah. Because I think with with glitter, much of it kind of came from my own imagination. There was, you know, certain things were based on elements I saw at the time. And, you know, it all had roots in some research. Right. Here it made it a bit easier, especially because, especially with the Monica Randall book, the descriptions are so lush. She's so in love with the place. And she got to see the interior a bit more. So I was able to borrow from that account. Again, we don't know how accurate it is, but it gave me a sort of baseline. Yeah, that makes sense. The kind of along the those same lines you have so many like pop culture references within it in terms of like what would have been pop culture then so it's like i i didn't finish my list but i know like you you would

mention like baseball players you're mentioning things that were like happening at the time which i think ends up immersing the reader or at least me even more in the story um and i know that you've also always been interested in 1920s new york did you do any like extra research to include those or do they just kind of like come to you now that you've kind of spent so much time quote unquote in the in the 1920s yeah i mean honestly i think i'm just so obsessed with the 1920s that the problem i have is starting to sound like someone from the 20s to my like modern day friends so i do think that most of it comes naturally through all the research and the reading but i will also say a lot of editing goes into it so some metaphors or slang come naturally but

sometimes I slip up. So speaking of baseball, I am not a sports girl, so I don't really don't really know my baseball. There was that one line where someone was fast and they were compared to, in this current version, Ty Cobb, a baseball player. In my original, I just put Babe Ruth because that was, you know, he's the guy. And my editor, I'm actually, you know, very lucky because she always catches these things. He's like, Babe Ruth was not very fast. Like, let's make a little switch here. So, yeah, I am very lucky. I'd say most of it comes from my head, but I definitely flip up and Louisa saves me. That's awesome. It's got to be such a detailed job. That's what I was thinking about, like editors who, especially who need to catch like anachronisms or like any historical detail. There's like so much more to be paying attention to.

I need to interview an editor because I'm starting to have questions for them. I don't know how they do it, the whole process. I mean, I think it's also maybe a bit easier because there aren't that many living people from the 20s who would be able to catch some of these things. I mean, I fly awake at night sometimes worried about a reader, you know, pointing something out. I mean, it's still possible with the various geographical locations. So I'm open to that. But yeah, I think that makes it a bit easier.

There are probably things that I haven't caught, you know, even materials or slang or things like that. It's hard to catch everything. But I would watch an interview with an editor because I'm curious. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to have to start reaching out to some. Another thing to kind of talking about the culture of the time is it somewhat seems like like Jenny is able to kind of be effective as a detective or as a PI because she's a woman. and there are definitely places where she's getting underestimated. Was that something you were kind of always thinking about for Ginny?

Or did it develop as you started to write it just as a circumstance of the time period? Yeah, I think it was always at the back of my mind, although I don't know if it was a conscious choice necessarily. I think the types of cases that Ginny investigates, she is especially well placed to investigate. because, you know, she's young, she's a party girl. Most people won't take her seriously. I think much of it comes from my own life experience as a woman. I think, especially when I was younger in college going to parties, you know, I'd always feel sort of underestimated.

And I would get that, especially from men, that they would, you know, definitely feel like they have more power. Me and my girlfriends would joke around that, you know, some of these guys trust women or trust strangers too much to take them home without knowing anything about them and maybe someone ought to, you know, steal a little something. Yeah, right. I assume it as a joke, so nobody come for me. But yeah, so I think in that sense, it was really cathartic writing those types of scenes

about Ginny. And I think I will continue to do it, and especially in the time period, right? Yeah. A lady PI who's going to take her seriously. Right. Yeah. The other thing we have, like you mentioned, the tension. of like she's known jack for a little bit um but not not super long and obviously they're both like

somewhat people who could be shady if they need to so it it's very hard for her to even be completely sure that she can trust him essentially and so then we feel that throughout the whole book where it's like is he maybe involves like is he a part of the problem is he not i'm not to say what the answer is, but did you know the answer going into it as you were writing? I can't remember how much you plot it, but were you in suspense too as you were writing it? Or did you always know kind of where it was going to go? I think I was always leaning more in one direction than the other, but there were certain elements as I was sort of thinking about Jack's history, where I thought maybe we could lean a bit more in this direction or in that direction. I think it

also helped create that suspense a bit more. But yeah, it was it was interesting to me. I wanted to explore. So I was I was actively dating at the time. And much of this book is also about relationships, I think, sometimes. And exes in particular. That was kind of an accident. But I think as I was dating, I was sort of struck by, especially in modern dating, but also in the past, you know, you could meet someone and have a fleeting connection and, you know, have a couple of dates, but, you know, you'd be sleeping together or you'd be falling for them. But really, how much can you really know about a person at that point? And, you know, they can just disappear and leave you wondering what happened or they can stick around and also leave you wondering, you know, who they are.

So that was what I wanted to illustrate here through a couple of the relationships actually, you know, with Jack, with Gloria, with Jack's ex coming into the picture and having her own version. So I wanted to kind of see how that would impact Ginny and, again, make the investigation a bit more complicated for her. Also, because, you know, Jack is the only person she can really trust after Book 1. Taking that away really kind of unmoored her. So I wanted to see what would happen there. Yeah.

And you do carry the trauma of her, like, losing. being her roommate in the first book. Like it does actually really stick with her, which I thought was, I think sometimes there's like, especially with series and especially if they're like mystery or action related, it'll just be like, oh, that happened. And then this main character moved on and she's just living her life, doing her things now. Was that, were you like, no, we're going to like, she's going to still be shaped by the experiences that happened to her, to your point about relationships. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think that what that's what makes it a bit harder to write this series.

Because, I mean, I've known and loved many series that are sort of, you know, each book is its own thing. You can kind of leap in and the main character doesn't really change that much. They're great. But I really want to show kind of Ginny's growth or progression or disillusionment because I think that's what makes it interesting. And I think readers can still hop in at any point, but, you know, the experiences we have do change us. someone's death will carry through. So I wanted to make sure that that was reflected. Yeah, I agree.

I prefer that. It tends, I understand there's like all kinds of pros and cons to series and how you approach them. And maybe if you have like 20 books in a series, you want it to be that like a new reader wouldn't need to feel obligated to read them all. But I prefer the character growth to continue on through the series. So I liked that a lot. Was there any like secondary character or basically even just like a character you hadn't written in the first book that you had the most fun with in this one? That's a good question. So I mean, the most fun character I think was Margo in this one.

I really like her. She's unpredictable. I mean, to be fair, I always like to write a showgirl or a dancer or that kind of character. So I like that she was sort of this age. into chaos in Ginny's life. Yes. And constantly just like bringing up interesting new facts and another person she couldn't really trust.

So I'd say she was probably the most fun to write. Yeah. Her scenes were fun. I liked her a lot too. And she's kind of, she's a decent part of like the inciting incident or the kind of the catalyst that gets things going. Yeah.

My other new favorite questions ask, especially people who write historical fiction, is if you could be transported into 1920s New York City, what are like three places or if there's just one to three places that you know you would want to immediately like visit? I think there are more than three, but we can do three for sure. Maybe I'll start with the ones that are sort of fresh in my mind. So if I had to make a day out of it, I would probably start with. this is so mundane but I would want to get a meal at an automat so it was I don't think there are any

still left in in America but it was a type of sort of fast food restaurant that was between a cafeteria and a vending machine they show up a lot in old movies so you'd go in and you'd have the meals behind like in these little boxes and you'd put a few nickels in the slot and the door would open and you could grab your hot meal so I think that would be really fun to explain experience and honestly also just paying a few nickels for a meal would be great. And then I would definitely go to, so one of the old movie palaces, I think, because movie theaters were so sumptuous back in the day. Or if I wanted to really max out the spectacle, I'd go to the hippodrome theater in New York. So it closed down pretty quickly. It wasn't a very business

a savvy venture, but there's this massive kind of like cross between a theater and a circus and an amusement park where you could go to see like vaudeville circus shows on a very, very grand scale. The stage was like 10 or 12 times larger than any regular Broadway house and it could hold up to a thousand performers, which I can't even imagine. Like how, what would that even look like? They had this like 8,000 gallon tank that they could fill with water, for swimming and diving shows. So it's really, you know, entertainment on a grand scale. But I think it's torn down and turned into like a mid-century office building and parking

garage. So yeah. Classic. Yeah. Usually. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think for my third piece, it would have to be some kind of nightlife.

I'd either go to a speakeasy or I would love to time my little time travel trip to attend the Hamilton Lodge drag ball in Harlem. It was really cool. So it was actually started, I think, by a black fraternity in the mid-19th century. It was really popular by the sort of tens, 20s, and early 30s. They had thousands of people in attendance by the end of the decade. It was very, like, surprisingly mainstream. I mean, of course, you know, a big spot for the queer community, but you know, they have famous people attending, you're rich people, it's kind of showing up to watch the ball. And so few pictures survive, but I bet the outfits were amazing. And it just be so, so special to witness this very early moment in queer culture. So I'd love to see it.

Yes. Now I want to go back in time with you. I think those stories are so cool, especially your point that it was mainstream. Because I think a lot of people do not realize, like there was not so much animosity toward the queer community even like like we've had even pockets of history in the U.S. where that is not what people were obsessed with like it has been mainstream before it has been just people living their lives before it's also obviously been the opposite at many times and unsafe but I do love hearing those stories because it's like hey guys we don't this isn't something that's been around forever and like like we could also just all choose to not be hateful now.

Exactly. Yeah. That's my soapbox moment. No, very fair. And I think, yeah, history is so nonlinear. And I think it really sort of ruins any argument for, oh, let's do things like they were in the good old days. Well, which good old days are you referring to, you know, because here are some examples.

Yeah. Yeah. It's an exhausting, it's an exhausting phrase to keep hearing, basically. But obviously I've really loved Liars in Paradise. I love the title. I know you're not typically, authors aren't typically like super involved in it, but I feel like it really encapsulated a lot. Was it kind of like kind of where you were wanting to go title-wise?

Yeah, actually. So the working title was Paradise. Oh, nice. And the only sort of point of feedback I got from my, publisher was, you know, Paradise. It doesn't really call out the darker elements. And can we make something more similar to, you know, glitter in the dark? There's, like, light and there's dark.

Yeah. And so I actually am the one who came up with Liars in Paradise and they liked it. So I'm very happy. That's perfect. And it goes so well with, like, the opening sentence is about cheaters, basically. Yeah. And I was like, okay, her first sentence is telling us some themes, the title's telling us the themes it all fits yeah so anyone who is a fan of of PI novels even if you've not read

historical versions i think you would really love this especially if you love um female led stories as well uh and again i think people are like historical fiction more than they realize so that is me pushing it as of the time that it's airing right now you can go get your copy so go do that. But I do also always ask at the end, I can't remember if I warns you about this, but if there are any books that you've read recently that you really loved, or if you have books you recommend all the time. Well, some evergreen recommendations. I would say anything written by Nekessa Afea. So she writes the Harlem Renaissance Mysteries. I think there's another coming out soon. And she also has a wonderful standalone thriller.

mystery set in the 30s. So lots of great kind of historical detail there and tons of suspense. Yes. And then for a recent book I read, well, okay, it's not historical. It's not really a mystery, but it is bonkers, and I just have to talk about it. So Sky Daddy. Yes, I keep hearing about this. Fantastic. So it's a woman who is sexually attracted to planes, and she wants a plane to marry her by going down in a plane crash with her. And it sounds insane, but it's actually so touching and tender at parts and like life affirming. It's strange to say it, but I really recommend it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm going to have to check that one out because so many people say a lot of what you just said, that it's also like very moving and you wouldn't expect it to be.

So you have me intrigued. Also for anyone who was intrigued by Nick Kessa, Afia, she, I did have her on for as long as you're mine, the standalone you're talking about. So, yeah. So if anyone wants to read some more Harlem, well, I don't know if that one is in Harlem. I can't totally remember. That one's the 30s. Yes, it's Hollywood. You're right.

You're completely right. But yeah, you can go check those out too. And where can people follow you to stay up to stay with everything? I'd say Instagram. Olesia is online. Yes, very easy to remember. But I will also put it in the show notes. And thank you for talking with me about it today.