Bookwild - Murder, Secrets & Halloween in the Thousand Islands: Tessa Wegert's This River Runs Black

Episode Date: October 6, 2026

In this episode, Gare and I chat with Tessa Wegert about her new thrill The River Runs Black!Listen to hear about:How the Thousand Islands and North Country become characters themselves, creating the perfect mix of cozy fall atmosphere, isolation, and underlying dread.Why Tessa set The River Runs Black around Halloween and how trick-or-treating, pumpkin festivals, orchards, and other seasonal details actually play into the mystery.How she uses multiple POVs, secrets, cliffhangers, and carefully timed reveals to keep readers guessing—and why she changed one major character’s perspective while writing.The real-life inspiration behind the novel’s drug trafficking storyline, including a late-night police encounter on the St. Lawrence River and the uniquely porous U.S.–Canada border.How the novel explores the impact of drugs, boredom, isolation, and vulnerability among teenagers in a small community, plus what’s next for Tessa’s North Country series and her hopes to eventually publish a standalone thriller.  All the Bookwild Links:Check Out the Bookwild SubstackSubscribe to Bookwild on YouTubeGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramCheck Out Author Social Media Packages Follow Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mbaErin Ashley @bellametaphor

In this episode, Gare and I are back with Tessa Weigert, who has been on the podcast before, and she has her second book in the North Country series coming out called The River Runs Black, where a teenager's fatal overdose and a massive drug seizure along the Canadian border expose a larger, more elusive drug network operating throughout New York's North Country. As investigator Tim Wellington and his team hunt the criminals behind it, They race to stop the violence before more young people in the Thousand Islands become victims or targets. I can't believe how complex this mystery was. There were so many things going on, so many different reveals,

and Gare and I had so much fun talking to her about the North Country. I basically need to move to New York, but we already knew that. So that being said, let's hear from Tessa. Gare and I are back with Tessa Weirt to talk about the river runs black. There's like so much to talk about. This one was very complex. I have all the questions. So I'm excited that you're back.

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's always a treat. I shouldn't say treat because it's so punny considering this is such a Halloween themed book. But it is a treat to hang out with you guys always. So thank you. Well, I know we love Halloween. and fall in October. So I'm good with calling it a treat.

All right. Perfect. Perfect. So I know, I know we've talked to you before, but for anyone who doesn't know your reading journey, your writing journey, can you just like briefly give us like an overview? Did you always want to write? Like, how did that all work out for you? Yeah, definitely. So, so I have the two series, the Shana Merchant series, which has six books, and then this book, The River Runs Black, is the second in the North Country series, but they can really be read as standalones. I feel like even more than the Shana Merchant books, but it all started with Death in the Family, which was the very first Cheyna book. I wrote it after having visited the Thousand Islands for years

and years. Like, I have family up there, so I spent a lot of time in that area, you know, in upstate New York, right on the border of Ontario, Canada. I had always felt like that would be a really good place to set a mystery in particular, a mystery or a thriller. And I grew up reading a lot of crime fiction and, you know, the classic detective fiction of the, you know, golden age, Agatha Christie type of stuff. And then later on, the Louise Penny and all of that really resonated with me, especially the stuff that was really atmospheric. And when it came time to sit down and try to write a mystery myself, I figured there's no better place to set it. So all of the books that I've written to date, all eight of them, this is the

eighth, all take place in that area. And yet I still don't ever feel like I run out of ways to describe it or things to say about it. It's just really like a really lush and rich area, rich in history, rich in like a sense of place. It's just, it's amazing. Yeah. Every time I your books, I'm like Googling the places because like it is so important to the story. I've never been there. But I want to. We have to fix that, Kate. I know. Right there. Right. Yeah. We all need to meet up. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's so wild because I always read like I always like try to envision the places and the people and everything in books when I read. But like Tessa's books are like a little like reading vacation, if you will, because I'm like I don't have to like, spend as much time trying to envision what I'm reading because I know all of these places that

she's like writing about. So that's like a little extra bonus treat for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I try to make it as authentic as I can to the area because I know a lot of locals read the books, but also just because I enjoy reading about places that I've visited or learning about places that I haven't been. So even though the stories are obviously, all the books are completely, you know, all the crimes are completely fictional. Definitely the locations,

I try to render them as realistically as I possibly can, with the exception of business names and stuff, if I have a crime occurring there. But if you know the area well, you can absolutely spot the places that I've used as inspiration for some of those businesses. So yeah, it's like a little Easter egg hunt for anyone who knows that area, I think.

that's even cooler. I love that. It's so much fun. I always like that too, like, even like growing up that this would be like the perfect like location for like movies and stuff like that because I think that when you visit the North Country, there's something like all year round, but especially in the fall and Halloween, there's something where it's so beautiful during the day, but it can be a very spooky, isolating feeling place at night. and I feel like your books always capture that so well. You know, even when there's a crime that's been committed, you know, anything that takes place in the day,

like you're very good at capturing like the beauty of the location, even if they're like investigating a murder, you know. But then like you're really good at that isolated and like kind of terrifying feeling that like, okay, well, I am out in the woods, you know, in the dark at night. So. Yeah, right. And it's super remote.

right that's the thing and I grew up in a very similar small town in Quebec like very remote very heavily wooded area and so and I used to go to parties in the woods like some of these characters in this particular book do around the same time of year and it's just super eerie and I love the like the juxtaposition of the the cozy you know sitting around by the fire and drinking your pumpkin spice or whatever during the day at this time of year in these small little towns and then at night it just feels like I don't know so chilling to be out there like you just have this sense of I don't know this like underlying sense of dread at least I always did just because it's so isolated and you're out there

and you know anything can happen yeah John Fram when I interviewed him for the midnight knock he talked about because it takes place in the middle of like the desert. Yes. And it's also snowy, which doesn't matter to what I'm about to say, but it felt like it did. But he talked about how when he was driving through like nowhere, Texas and like stayed at a motel, that was when he learned about the term. I think it's called like open, open air claustrophobia. And so it's like because there's like infinite amount of stuff all around you, you, you also feel scared in a like similar way to claustrophobia. I get that and I,

Gare likes to remind me that I live in like a cute little suburb or my neighborhood is. But we're basically like fields of corn, fields of soybean and then a neighborhood and then more fields. And where I was growing up in high school, it was even more like spread out. So like a lot of like what gear and i think kind of what you're talking about too in like that those areas of new york um are it's it's at least a little bit similar here so when you were talking about or in the book when they're when the kids are all like partying on like remote farmland i'm like that is like i didn't i didn't get to because i was not allowed to but everyone would talk about like passing out in a cornfield so like i was feeling it happens yeah yeah

Yeah. And you feel so grown up when the parties go from like the woods or cornfield to someone's garage. Right. Yeah. Exactly. That's like the ultimate. Yeah.

And all that isolation plays such a big part in this book because of everything that's going on with drugs, kind of this influx of drugs in the area and, you know, these teenagers who are getting hold of these drugs and the police trying to figure out how that's happening and where. So, yeah, I was channeling like all of my memories of living in remote places like this when I was writing this one. But we were talking before we started recording about the fact that it's set at Halloween. That was something I've been wanting to do with a book for so long because death in the family is the only other one that I've set in October. But it didn't really have too many references to Halloween.

But this takes place like, you know, you get the, you're right, you know, in the middle of the trick-or-treating at one point. there's this apple orchard that they visit like it's a lot of there's a pumpkin festival there's a lot of just Halloween traditions and um Halloween vibes that were fun to incorporate into this one too yes and without getting into spoilers you use it thematically in a lot of cool ways and that's all I'm going to say but it plays into it plays into a lot of things that you're almost not thinking it will play into is what I can say well I always think it's fun. Like if you're going to, and again, going back to our conversation about setting, if you're going to really play up the setting and the locale in a crime story,

it's fun to give it some extra layer of relevance to the crime itself or to the investigation. I always try to do that, like incorporate it in more ways than just having it be background scenery, right? So it plays more of an active role in what's happening in the narrative itself. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. The other thing I was thinking about with this one is because we actually have Shana in it as well. So that's like kind of the other fun thing.

Like this is a new, quote, like a new series. It is a new series. But we still have her. And it was also reminding me of like Karen Slaughterers that go from Grant County or no. Grant County to Will Trent. Yes, Grant to Will Trent. I couldn't remember if I got you, girl. counties. So like how has that been? Like what how was that like kind of like being with

Shana so much? And then still getting to keep her but also like expand on it. Yeah. Honestly, some of the decision to do that was selfish on my part because I didn't want to totally stop writing about her. Like I wasn't totally done telling her story. But I got into the point where I'd written six books completely like first person narrate or completely from her point of view. And I do have this big, pretty big cast of characters like her colleagues and family members that pop in and out of the books. So I was, I guess, like kind of intrigued by the idea of giving them the stage and putting, you know, the reader in their perspective for a little while. And then that allowed me to have them all see Shana from a different point of view.

you that the reader had never gotten to see before because now you're not in her head, but you are seeing her through Tim's eyes. Tim, who is a colleague of hers, really like an underling of hers technically, but also they're married now. So that's been fun because I didn't have a chance to spend time in Tim's head before. And he's become such a key character in this new series in the North Country books. But yeah, sheena's there. And so the challenge is always to like back to what I said about the background seniority.

I don't want her to ever just be like an aside or a cameo. Like when she appears, there's a reason for it. And she contributes something to the investigation or she has something clever to say because I wanted her to still be an active participant in books. So, yeah, I mean, that's kind of like an Easter egg situation too, because people who have read any of the Shana books will recognize some references and some characters that are recurring. but then I have a lot of new characters too

that you've never even heard about up until these new books and sometimes they get their own perspective too. Yes. I interrupt me if you need to, Gere, I'm just on a rampage here, but it's a huge cast in terms of POVs even.

This one is. Yeah, yeah. And the Shana series was also still very cinematic, but sometimes when we have these like when we get so many POVs, that then sometimes that means like the reader has information that like the detectives don't have. And that always really reminds me of movies as well because that's especially in like thrillers or especially like political thrillers.

And this one is like in scope, it's almost similar to a political thriller even. But with movies, they have to tell you the information so much faster. So sometimes there's more of that POV switching. how did you like decide everyone that you wanted to include and like literally did you have like as I was reading it I was like did she have like one of those like murder boards that like police has there. Yes there are a lot of moving parts there are I wish I was organized enough and patient enough to create something like that and instead I'm just so eager to start writing that the board exists just in my head and

I can just, I don't know, like it's the weirdest thing. I can't remember, you know, people's names that I made. I can't remember what I ate for dinner two days ago. But I have this, like, complex web of book character information in my head. And that, for whatever reason, I can retain. So that helps. But yeah, it was, it was interesting with this book in particular, because when I first started out, one of the points of view was going to be Valerie, who's one of the state police investigators and it's heard at one point heard she's a detective and at one point her daughter goes missing teenage daughter goes missing and you know i'm a mom of teenagers and i started writing it and it just felt like i didn't want to spend that much time like absorbing her grief because if i was

in her point of view for those scenes that's all it was going to be was just like the profound grief of losing this child and the you know the worry and Am I going to ever see her again and all of that? And it felt like way too heavy. So I switched it and then had the perspective of the girl, Bobby, who goes missing instead. And I have seen some scenes with her mother, Valerie, where, you know, they're talking about the situation and you get some of her emotional reaction to the abduction. But it was way better to do it this way because now I was in Bobby's head. And so you get to actually see, you know, to a point because I don't want to give everything.

way, but you got to be there in those tense moments with the victim understanding, like, the stakes and how dangerous the situation was for her. And it worked way better. So sometimes I think I have a plan for what I'm going to do with the points of view and who gets a point of view in this next book. And then I start writing it and realize now that it doesn't, it doesn't feel right. It doesn't make sense this way. Yeah. I think it's also like emotionally like hard hitting for your readers too, because like Valerie is a character that like, your readers already know. Right.

So when you're showing her grief through another character's perspective and like you know like Valerie's a badass, like she's a tough cookie and you already know her as like a person in this book, like you know her characteristics. And then you see her falling apart through somebody else's eyes or you see her reaction of things through someone else's eyes. It almost like hits harder and is a little bit more like emotionally gut wrenching because you don't know 100% and sometimes that's a little bit more

like impactful. Yeah, that's such a good point. Yeah, I never really, I never really stopped to think about that, but it's true. And it does probably hit harder when it's a character who, if you've read any of the Shana books,

you've gotten to know really well and you know some of her backstory and history. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, because I don't read the synopsis to any of your books. Like, after the second or third, like Shana book,

I just knew that like when you had a book coming out like I'm going to pick it up and going blind. So when I read in the bones and I was like, oh Tim, like I know him. Oh, Tim, like what are you doing here? And then when it was like from Tim's perspective and I was like Tim's our new main character in this like spin off updated new series. And Shana was kind of like the Sydney Prescott from Scream of like. Like she her role's not as big, but when she comes in, it's like you said, it's like for a purpose. So I thought that was really interesting the way that you did that. And I think it always is impactful to the reader when you decide who's P-O-B you have because the way that you've built this series is, I think, incredible, especially that it's in your head and there's no murder board anywhere hidden. incredible or incredibly reckless to do it that way.

Who knows? Sometimes that's the best way to do things, honestly. It's worked out for you. That's what I'm always saying. Like, you've written eight books. Like, clearly that works for you. Yeah. I do feel like if I, I feel a little too locked in if I, if I outlined too much too.

And mood, like, you know, the mood boarding and the like murder boarding sometimes makes me feel a little bit trapped. So I like the flexibility of just being able to come up with a totally new character on the fly somewhere along the way, you know, halfway through the book that I wasn't planning on. And I feel like if I had it like a, you know, a roadmap staring at me while I was working on it, that might, I don't know, like, hinder my creativity or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I will say the other thing about the multiple point of view that, I have really enjoyed that I wasn't expecting to enjoy as much as it, it creates these kind of built-in cliffhangers, right?

Which I never had stopped to really think about that before. But whenever you switch a perspective, you leave that character behind and everything that was going on in that particular thread of the plot. And you're just waiting as a reader to find out what happens next. So I always lean into that as much as I can. So there's something really exciting happening at the end of each of those. point of view scenes and then you don't get to find out what happens next for several more chapters because I'm switching around the points of view. So that has been fun to just like be strategic

about the structure in that way to keep readers invested. Especially the last like 30% where because like everything has culminated. And you're like, oh, I think I know what's happening here. And then you like move to a totally different location with a totally different person. You're like, oh my God, when am I going to go back there? Yeah, it is cool. It comes together. Especially like in your books because like there's not, I love you so much, but there's not a lot of peaceful moments in your books. You know, right. It's not like you get like 50 pages of like Tim and Shana like making pancakes and like walking along the beach. You know, like so usually when your books start, like they really kick off and, you know, that's that's your like your comfort zone is to like kick off a book and be like, hey, listen, like here's your first.

chapter something dark and disturbing is happening and you're going to want to stay invested until you finish it but like i think with you like pacing has always been one of your strongest points and like at the last like 30 percent the shit really hits the fan in all of your books like 30 percent so i think that that's something too that like really amps up pacing that you already have like down path. Well, you know what tends to happen is at the point at which I have 30% of the book left to write is usually the point at which I feel like the deadline is looming and I need to really step it up. So I tend to write that last section really, really fast. And I think that that I did it kind of by accident once or twice and went, oh, this actually works. Like I feel the urgency on the page more

when I'm feeling the urgency to write it because otherwise I'm not going to make my deadline. So that has now be that and that's kind of fun because I can procrastinate all the way up until like get to the point where I'm like, okay, this is this is it now. I've got this much left to write. Like I'm going to do it all in three days or whatever it is. Yeah. And like I'm glad to hear that it's working because I feel the energy. Like I feel energized when I reach that point for sure.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's kind of like that energy like also goes into. your reader too because like you're fever feverishly like finishing the last 30% and like we are feverishly like trying to get through the last 30% to like find out what's going on. So it's really interesting that that's like a huge parallel with you too. Yeah. Yeah. With this one too, like I know all mysteries and thrillers have secrets. Like that's definitely a part of it. But I feel like this one, it's like everyone is keeping.

stuff from someone like even the I think everyone almost everyone even the good guys have something that they're maybe not sharing with the people in their lives and I also think it's interesting how like it's not inherently bad to have secrets sometimes and especially with teenagers like it's actually kind of normal to have some secrets at some points in your life but sometimes it turns out really poorly so like you definitely like different people's secrets have different consequences throughout this one. So was that, like, did you just kind of discover that as you were writing? Or did you like kind of think about having people withholding, like everyone withholding stuff when you started it? Yeah, the withholding piece, like you nailed it.

I think that's so important, especially when you're doing multiple points of you because you can only withhold so much when you're doing a first person narrator, right? Without cheating the reader, without the reader, feeling cheated like, oh, you were the killer this whole entire time and you didn't think to mention it, you know what I mean? So, but with multiple points of view, I do try to give every character, even to your point, the, the good guys, the detectives, the ones who are, you know, like going to solve the case, they all have something always that they're withholding from the people around them or some people in their lives that then I withhold from the reader up until, You know, as long as I can, but up until the point where it feels like, like, they need to know a little bit more now or else they're going to get frustrated.

Like, I don't want to withhold so much that I'm annoying the readers. Like, what is the secret already? You've mentioned it a hundred times. Right. But I do think it helps to, it's just like dropping the breadcrumbs, you know? It's the same concept as when you're writing the traditional mystery, I think, where you're dropping those clues along the way. And nobody knows, well, some people know. but the reader doesn't know exactly what they mean yet and you reveal what they mean to the case at just that

the most opportune moment it's like that with the secrets too yeah i appreciate the way that you like space them out a little bit too because like as a reader like nothing is more frustrating than like somebody like you said like dropping those hints and like you know kind of frustrating the reader and saying like okay what is it already but like sometimes like there are so many things that are like hinted at in a book and then you get to like the last like 20 pages and it's like almost too many reveals you know yeah i think that that is something that like is very much like in your pocket as like you know exactly when to like drop things you know it's not like uh 40 secret reveal in the last like 10 pages so yeah um the way that you space them out is fantastic our friend

stuff has started talking about like the thrillers that just try to do too much at the in the last five percent and i'm like yes like you don't want that much happening all at the end i also think it makes sense like if you think about the pacing toward the end is when you want there to be more physical action typically too right so to to kind of bog that down which is also it's already a lot. Like you, you have a lot of just, like, action going on in that sense

in the last 30%, but then to bog that down with a whole bunch of reveals to, like, all these things that you've been keeping from the reader all this time. I do feel like sometimes it can, like I've definitely gotten to the point

where I've had to pull back on some of that in my own work because it does feel kind of natural to want to pack those last pages with as much, like, intrigue and excitement and surprises that you possibly can. But I've definitely looked back on some of my stuff during the revision and editing process and been like, all right, it might be a little, might be a little much.

Like, let's rearrange some things. And I don't need to hit everybody over the head with all of this at this point, right? Yeah, that's a good point. It really is like, especially with your structuring normally, it's like you're trying to figure out all the info until about 80%. And then, yeah, once you like move into the like action of it all, you kind of need most of the characters to know what's happening and like what they're going after or saving or trying to figure out. And I wasn't going to ask this at the very end, but it just, it fits better at this point. No spoilers. There is an interesting reveal at the end.

I'm not even going to call it a twist because that's like just too much. sometimes but there's very like dark interesting little tidbit at the end and all i want to know is did you surprise yourself with that or did you know you were headed that direction i know exactly what you're talking about it's the very last chapter and also the very last line of the book totally not planned or anticipated wow i that chapter wasn't even going to exist like i was going to wrap up that character's earlier. Yeah. Plot like just a little bit earlier.

And then I was sitting there kind of doing my final pass and I went, you know, it would be maybe a little bit risky, but also kind of cool. And I love the sensation as a reader myself of getting to that final page and being like hold the phone. What just happened? Yeah.

So that was, I saw an opportunity to do that with this particular character and did it and it's funny because I did an event the other day and somebody said we need to talk about that last chapter and I'm starting to hear you know from early readers like I have questions for you about that last chapter and that last line and also I've been getting a lot of questions about if that character is going to be in the next book so I don't know if I'll say anything about that right now maybe I'll just keep everyone in suspense you should however yeah to answer your question totally not planned totally just like like a like a crime of opportunity let's call

it and it ends up like fitting the character's motivation so like another version of this conversation of like it it's not that you just totally threw something and that didn't fit you like then think back on it and you're like hmm yeah okay okay that's interesting and it is I think because there are so characters too. It's like having this this little one with this character doesn't feel like oh my god, this came out of nowhere basically. But it is, it is a special ending. Yeah. Well, I texted yeah. I was like, this is bleak. I know. I can't wait to finish now. I'm like, what's going to happen? Yes. You don't have to tell me what you think. Yeah. Yeah. I like I love those moments,

especially toward the end of a book, like I said, where it like something happens or something is said that reframes the way that you were looking at some aspect of the story or a particular character. And I think that like when I decided to do that, that was my goal, was to have you really thinking about that character, like really revisiting all of the interactions that you saw and like kind of reassessing. Were they the person that you thought they were all along? Yes. Yes. It also like sets up like so much. anticipation for the next one right yeah yeah which i'm working on now so that'll be out in fall of twenty twenty seven and actually i just signed a deal so there will be at least three more books in

this series coming so that's exciting congratulations congratulations yeah yeah i'm really excited you're on a streak yeah it's i'm sure more to come i have no i have no doubt that like we're going to see a lot more from you. Oh, thanks. It's nice. It's nice to know, like, especially when you're writing a series, it's nice to know what lies ahead, at least for, you know, a book or two usually is even, even two books feels like a gift because I can think to, you know, I can start to plan like a larger kind of series arc, which I wouldn't necessarily be able to do if I didn't know how many more books there would be. But yeah, I have lots of ideas for the, for the books that are coming up. That's for sure. That is so fun.

That's amazing. Yeah, and I'm sure there's less pressure because you're also, you're like, I'm writing this one and I know I have another one. I'm going to be paid to write. So you're also not thinking about like selling the next one. So it probably feels kind of nice writing that like first one in a multi-book deal. Yeah, definitely. There's some comfort in that. And like I said, like I can plan ahead and get attached to some ideas without worrying that I'm not going to have a chance to pursue, you know, those plots or those narratives. That makes sense. too. Yeah. Do you think that you would like, because now you're on your second series and your eight books into your writing career. So like, do you think that a series is something that like works

best for you that you would stick with? Or like do you have you ever had like any ideas for like a standalone that you? Or do you fantasize about it? Yeah. Like do you have like an idea for like a standalone and you're like, oh wow. Like I would love to write this standalone. But like right now I'm, you know, in the middle of this series. So like, have you ever had one that like, you're still dying to write or have you ever had one that you have had to reconfigure to fit into a series that's existing already? Oh, yeah. That's a good question. No, I've never had a standalone idea or any part of a standalone manuscript that I like, you know, reconfigured to make it a series book. But I have several standalones in the works at various stages of

being finished. And so what I tend to do, and the reason why it takes a long time is because I have hard time working on two, like especially drafting two different projects at the same time. Like, because they're both in the mystery and thriller space, I just, like, there's too much going on and I have a lot of characters. And so I get confused really easily. And then, like, I don't feel as invested in one or the other. It's just, like, kind of all diluted. So what I tend to do is write these books. And then when I have that break where I'm waiting for developmental edits or I'm waiting for copy edits, then I'll switch back to the standalone and start chipping away at the standalone again. So I have a couple that I have been doing that with over the years that hopefully

one of them I'm going to finish like in the spring and take it out, you know, on snitchin and see if there's any interest. But yes, I would love to do standalones in addition to doing the series books because I do sometimes, like to your point gear, I do sometimes have ideas for standalones that don't fit into that universe of the Shana books or the North Country books. Like, it's just not, it doesn't really make sense that I would like to pursue as a standalone. So we'll see what happens. Well, and I think, too, like, that's what, like, I've always admired about you and your career and the way that you write is none of your books have ever felt like, and not to like insult any other authors. I don't have anyone in specific mind what I'm saying this.

So I don't want to offend anybody. but like sometimes you read like a book series and you're like this could have ended on book three but like you can tell that they were in a deal for like four and five you know and the thing that I've always admired about you is that like your books don't feel like when the next one came it was a plot idea your books always feel like it's where are these characters now right so like when book three ends you can tell that you are putting into focus when you start writing book for where are these characters and that kind of feels like that's how it takes you there instead of just coming up with a plot and sticking Tim here and Shana here and you know what I mean

like kind of putting the characters in so that's something that I've always like really admired is it just seems like they're always like a natural progress into like where the characters are and then like the crime almost isn't always the forefront you know what I mean because you're following along the character so like even if there's like a drug related crime or a murder on an island even if you're not like into that plot device with other authors like you really want to read it because you're so invested in the characters as well like it just seems like it's a natural progression into where their lives are headed with each book well you just cued me up perfectly for one of my other questions it it is very much about like it this there's there's murder there's also a lot

revolving around cocaine. And then like the scope gets really interesting with that as well. And I was wondering, like, was that like the idea that came to you? Was there something that you, like, read that made you want to go that route? Because it is. It's one that like, I'm not always super interested in like a cocaine thriller, but this doesn't feel like a cocaine thriller kind of because of what you just said. Yeah. The drug seizure, like the story, the book kicks off with this, like, record drug bust on the St. Lawrence River right on the border of the U.S. and Canada. And yeah, I mean, it wasn't so much about, it wasn't like the drug bust that interested me so much as what happens to a small,

remote community, a tight-knit community when drugs kind of infiltrate the area's youth and how, and like what are the consequences of that and how would people respond to that and would there be opportunists who maybe wanted to be part of that and you know what about the more vulnerable people in the population like how does that affect them so what happened was i obviously spend a lot of time up there and one night i was like where i stay when i'm up there is it's my parents-in-law's house and it's actually on an island it's a cottage on a little three acre island and it's right on the channel in the St. Lawrence River. And so you're like on the channel where the big freighter boats and tankers and stuff go through. And there's a lot of boating activity there all the time, even at night.

And once I was there and I looked out the when it was dark, it was night already, like quite late. And I looked out the window and I saw a police boat with the blue lights going. So essentially in my front yard, you know, this was happening. And this police boat pulled over another boater. And I watched this all. I actually took a video of it. And the whole time I was thinking, like, speculating what could be going on here. And the first thing that came to mind, I'm sure it was just like, you know, you forgot to turn on your running light or whatever, like some totally normal, like harmless situation. But that's boring when you're writing crime fiction. So my mind went to like, oh, maybe this has something to do with the fact that the river has always felt like the river is the border in a lot of

places along that stretch and it's so indistinct like you're in Canada and now you're in the US and you just boat like back and forth from one to the other and when we go a lot to Canada for lunch or whatever we'll go there like to pick up groceries and when you go by boat you're supposed to call you're supposed to voluntarily like well by law you're supposed to call a phone number and say like we're here in Canada here is our purpose here's my past port number you you're supposed to do that by law and i'm sure a lot of people don't do that because who's going to know you're you're you're like docking at this restaurant you came by boat like no one's paying attention to that so it felt very like a vulnerable border yeah and there is drug activity

along that border for that exact reason so that was kind of what got me interested in that as a theme which i had not really explored before um but like you like I'm not that into writing a whole entire book about like a hardcore narco thriller is just not really my style necessarily. So then it was more about, okay, what happens next? Like, what do these drugs mean for the community? And what kind of, like, how could that all snowball into other situations and other, you know, dynamics between these characters that you wouldn't expect? And that couldn't exist if it wasn't for this particular event. right yeah and i think the thing is too is like going back to the isolation with the north country

is like you hit that on the head too because even when i've traveled there are excuse me there are these sticks that you can put in your drink to make sure that nobody's drugged it yeah and like i've never seen anybody up here with them um in the cities people have like narcan everywhere and there are, I think there are even tests now to strip or to test your drugs to make sure there's no fentanyl in them. Yeah. And there's nothing like that up here. So that's like, that's so confidently. Like I've used it. Yeah. Kate's like all the time. All the time. Yeah. Cates like I read about cocaine and now I know everything about it. But like there's it's like strange here because like this drugs like you said have always been an issue because of the.

the St. Lawrence River along the border and how easy it is to like traffic drugs and money and humans and everything. So there are there is a lot more crime up here that like small town law enforcement isn't used to dealing with. And it is something that's a little isolating and a little scary because like I don't do drugs. Like I can barely handle caffeine at this point in my life. But like if I, but like in my wild days when I was in my early 20s, like that would have been a terrible time to be experiencing something like this because some people do drugs all the time and some people like just, you know, maybe when they're like drinking every now and then or like if they just try something and it could be laced with fentanyl and you could die.

Yeah, it's terrifying. And there's like you don't see a lot of the same, you know, things up here that you see in like larger areas, even though fentanyl and dangerous things are coming into the area now, there aren't those strips around. Like, there are places that just started doing like Narcan training around here within like the last year or so. But like even still, like, it probably could have started five years ago, you know?

Right. Yeah. So I think you like, the way that you write that and include it in your stories is like something that will resonate with people that are like in small towns and even in this like smaller North Country area. Yeah, I mean, I think the other piece of it, going back to my own youth too, like access is a big issue, right? That's one thing.

But also the boredom that comes from living, being a young person living in a community where it's like especially a seasonal community like what exists up in the Thousand Islands area, there's just not a lot to do in the winter months in the oxy. season. So that feels like such a dangerous temptation. So that, and I ended up exploring quite a bit too with these, especially with, you know, the teenage characters in the book. And there's an overdose death at the high school. And yeah, I mean, that's like it's, it's really sad and it's scary. And I tend to write about stuff that scares me so that I can be a little bit in control of that narrative. And then maybe it doesn't scare me so much when I'm done with

it, you know, because I've put like it on the page and felt like I had some kind of resolution to it. So, yeah, I think this was, this was on my mind a lot when I was working on the book. Yeah. I've heard that helps readers too. Like, also like reading, reading a book where the situation is controlled, basically, but it could be something you're scared about, but you know that ultimately you're safe. That's why I read all the dark disturbing stuff, I think. Yeah. Because I'm such like a little chicken at the end of the day. Like, I really am. I hate taking Murphy outside at night. And, like, there are, there are, like, so many things, especially, like, in the North country up here that, like, you know, it's the same area that takes place in these books. Like, a lot of people, like,

their source or what they believe to be, their source of news is, like, social media and Facebook. Yeah. You know, so, like, there have been times where, like, trafficking is really bad up here. along the Canadian border because it's very easy to toss somebody in a boat and get them into Canada and then like you don't have jurisdiction and it's it gets very tricky so like there have been a lot of warnings on social media about like trafficking and what to watch out for and like don't go to the Walmart in the city at night because I saw these people doing this and this happened to me or my sister. And so there's like that boredom, but then there's also like also that, it's almost like the satanic panic.

Yeah. Everybody's afraid to do anything, you know, like people are putting fentanyl under door handles and their, or car, you know, car door handles and things like that. And it's like, is this true or is this like people like that are like having like just panic over everything in the world right now? Right. So that's why I love. understandable. That's why I love Tessa's book because I'm like, if anything ever happens to me, I know Tim and Shana are just like a 45 minute, 45 minute drive away. I will tell you. And I trust my life with them. At the beginning of the summer, you know, I spent a lot of time up there like doing book events in the summer and I always do a summer tour and signings and stuff like that.

The beginning of the summer, the very first day that I got there, the very minute that I pulled into town, I went to the liquor store. because it's not always the very first thing that I do, by the way, but it just so happened that that was the very first thing I did. And I was in there buying wine. And this woman that I'd never seen before, didn't recognize. I saw her, like, looking at me and, like, checking me out. And I thought it was kind of weird. And I didn't say anything to her.

And she didn't say anything to me. And then I went to check out, you know, to pay. And on my way out the door, she tapped me on the shoulder. She said, I just want you to know that I still look for Tim and Shana, everywhere I go whenever I'm here for the summer I come every summer and they feel so real to me and I'm always like watching for them and honestly I was so touched that somebody would feel like these characters were so real to them the way that they feel real to me. I couldn't believe it. Yeah, it was so nice. Oh, that's such a cool story. Yeah, I know. Especially when like you're like kind

of trying to be like aware of your surroundings and like vigilant and then like you're like, oh no, like is she going to pull life on me? And she's like, I love Tim and Shana. It's that like, it's that thriller author, brain of yours, right? By the way, I write crime fiction and I'm like acutely aware of everything that's going on, like hypervigilant. And then someone's like, tap, tap.

Oh, my gosh. I love your characters. Yeah. I feel that way too. I'm so jumpy. Thanks. I do. I like, especially now that like this one takes place in like Halloween because one of my

favorite things to do, that's like, creepy when you think about it, but like in real life is like fun is, um, outside of Cornwall, Ontario, there's a thing called Pumpkin Inferno. Have you ever been to this or heard of it? Did you take pumpkin inferno? Yeah. Do they set the pumpkins on fire? No, it is what I was assuming. Amazing, amazing opportunity. I have not, but it is like you are driving in like the city of Cornwall and then like you are all of a sudden in this like deserted road for like probably 10 to 15 miles. and there is a little sign that tells you to like turn left and it is like this little Halloween theme park but what it is is they have like a couple of food trucks and they work all I think like

all summer on this they carve pumpkins and make statues out of them and there's different things you send me pictures yes so it's like it's like um they'll do like the Eiffel Tower and then they'll do like famous like musicians and characters like that but like at the end of the day like you're out in the middle of the woods with all of these pumpkins that are like lit up and creating these statues because you typically only go at night and it's just like the creepiest thing but like it's also like the most fun thing and now I'm going to be like I hope Tim and Shane are here because I love to go every year but then I'm like you are literally out in the middle of the woods with complete strangers just looking at pumpkins. It sounds extra spooky which I'm

all for. You know, Gary, you must know, you must know about the pumpkin chunkin that takes place in Clayton. I was going to ask if that was real. That is real. So the very first scene in the book takes place at this like pumpkin festival where they, people build homemade catapults. And they catapult giant pumpkins into the river and, you know, whoever goes the farthest wins and there are prizes. And it's like, might be a fundraiser component to it. So anyway, that is a real thing. and I'm actually going to be doing a book signing at it on October 17th. So if anyone's around, Oh my gosh,

that is so perfect, gear. Can you take me for my birthday? Yes. This is literally my birthday. Is the 17th your birthday? Yes. No way.

Yeah. Yeah. We could chuck. That would be fun. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh, that sounds cool gear. I'm definitely going to go to that.

Yeah. You get your tickets online. So. I just found. I just found it online and the promos are cracking me up. It is the, it is one of the most fun things I have been to. I love going every single year and they have like different themes and stuff and it's just like you said earlier like it's hard to find things to do that are fun and interesting up here.

So like right. It's worth it to travel to Clayton to see people like Chuck Perkins and it's worth it to like drive to Cornwall, Ontario to like go look at like lit up pumpkin statues. But yeah, it's always, it's always fun to like something like that. Because then it almost becomes like an annual activity. So it's something like you look forward to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if anybody wants to join me to Pumpkin Inferno, it's a tradition at this point. And I'm definitely going like in a couple of weeks. It sounds amazing. You had a garlic festival near you too, right? He has cool. He does have some cool. festivals of the fallish time. They have a Poutine festival in the summer. They have a rib fest

and then they just had the garlic festival. It's one of the parks in Cornwall. Right when you are the place to be apparently. Cornwall is so much fun. I go every weekend and like I'm I just feel like I'm in a completely different place when I go. Like I don't feel like I'm in the North Country anymore. But yeah, they just had a garlic festival. It was so much fun. I tried black garlic. for the first time. Yeah. I'm sure you was telling me. And it's very sweet. Like they put it in cookies. I didn't know the cookies part.

Yeah. Yeah. So they put it in cookies. I have one on my counter right now. My aunt left one in my car because I couldn't find the garlic guy. But there, yeah, they had fresh garlic and different garlic bulbs. And they had like all of these like food truck vendors and it was really fun. Yeah. So Cornwall Ontario. Yep. Cornwall. I'll meet in Cornwall. I'll meet you and Clayton. Deal. It's going on my bucket list for sure. Kate, you're coming.

I was, I know. I'm like, what am I doing in Indiana? Like, literally, because he was like, surely there's a garlic fest sometime near you. And I looked and there's not, there's not. This is the first year I've heard of it. Oh, okay. This is the first year I've heard of it. I think that they do it often. But yeah, I found and I found some vendors that like I will, I had the best wood fired pizza of my entire life with like hollas. and hot honey and onion and I found a sourdough company that like is like a man and a woman sourdough and I will like follow them wherever they are in cornwall now because bread was just the best but yeah nice you never know what you're going to find I'm currently saving black garlic cookies to my Pinterest right now so that I can circle back to that me too I'm still hung up on the black garlic cookies I know I that it's sweet yeah yeah you posted that a rabbit hole later for sure yeah you posted that pizza and that was what actually that was how

i found out because i was like your story makes me want pizza and then you told me about a garlic fest and then i was like well now i want a garlic fest so and it kind of like counteracts what i said earlier about some people in the north country who like get all of their information and believe it from facebook but like that was what happened it was like a friday night and i looked on facebook and they were like the cornwall garlic festival like in the dates and i was like wait it starts tomorrow. And so like I like last minute like nine o'clock at night like texted my aunt. And I was like, you want to go to a garlic festival? And she was like, what time are you picking me up? It's amazing. I love it that she's like so ready to be your ride or die to the garlic festival.

She is like the coolest. I want to hang out with his mom and his aunt so much. Yeah. My aunt is like you were both Gemini's. But she is like the. youngest acting Gemini, like down for whatever, like you want to go shopping all day, she'll do it. Like she will go here. She'll go there. And like she just like is a ride or die. And she's so much fun.

Yeah. I was like you want to, I could have been like, do you want to go to like a cranberry chutney festival? And she'd be like, hell yeah. Let's go. Like I don't even like cranberries, but let's go. Yeah. She's so much fun.

And then my mom was upset because she couldn't go. So. Poor mom. I know. Yeah. Yep. Well, now maybe a garlic festival will show up in one of her next three books. You never know.

Never know. Yeah. Then I would have to come visit you. I can take Tessa to the garlic festival for research. Yeah. Right. Exactly. That's exactly the kind of like local flavor that I'm looking for. For real, always.

Yeah. That's perfect. And like you said, it's always like a treat to people who like live in the area and like, or like surrounding areas that like know that these things are like real and that like you know this does happen up here in the north country so I just I think that like your book's taking place up here like always just feel like so special to me for like reasons like that. So I just read John Green's new book, Hollywood ending and it takes like most of his books or all. I can't remember which one take place in Indiana because he's from Indiana. Right. I don't know. I can't think of a book I've read that

took place in Indiana. There was one recently where like they passed through Indianapolis, like it was a reference. But I was like, this is so trippy because like, I'm sure it doesn't happen tons for you either, Garrett, where I'm like, I'm like never reading stuff that takes place in Indiana. I can't think of much either. Tess is it for me. Yeah. I think there's a Dia Poira book that might take place in Plattsburgh. Okay. But I say like, like, Like, yes. But yeah. I remember even, like, I was reading, I don't remember which Shana Merchant book it was,

but she had driven through Plattsburgh. And then she drove through Messina. And I, like, texted Tessa, like, on Instagram. I was like, oh, my God, I just saw Messina on there. And, like, because I'm, I'm still, like, 20 minutes away from Messina. But I'm like, like, I know no book is going to take place in Bombay, New York. No, nobody's talking about. Nobody's talking about Mesa.

But they should be. I had a physical. therapist who was from Messina. Like I found it. We were just chatting and she was like, oh, I'm from Messina. And I said, oh, okay, I have like something that you need to read. And I brought that. It was the, I think it was the kind to kill that talks about Messina. There's like a couple scenes that take place there. And I brought it for her. And she after, she read it. And she was like, I can never, like, I would never have imagined that I could find a book that had a scene.

Like, actually in this, you know, this is not a place that you often see depicted in fiction or anything else. Right. Right. Yeah. And even like my fall comfort show right now is Gilmore Girls. And like, oh yeah, I have a lot of Gilmore Girls references in this book. Oh, and like downtown Messina, like right now, like they turned an old bar into like a coffee shop. Yeah. And they reopened the theater. And like it's right near my hair salon. So like there's people going in and out of the theater. And like you can see a coffee shop. And like when I go to the hair salon to get my hair cut, I'm like, you know what? Like this is a lot of people are missing out on the opportunity to write about. seen in New York. Yeah. Yeah. It's got a lot going for it. It's fun. It's fun place. I think every single time we record, I say that I'm going to make it up there. But I'm just saying it again, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. We have to make it happen. Yeah. Yeah. Because the Harbor Hotel

and Clayton is like one of them like best spots to visit, especially in the fall. Yeah. Yeah. It's also fun to go. It has like a bit of a, like the hotel from the shining vibe. If you go in the winter, I've stayed a couple times, like, in December when there isn't a lot going on, like, there'll be, you know, like a corporate party or something like that, but it's pretty quiet. It's, it's very beautiful around that time of year, so. Yeah, I stayed in the winter before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But, like, mostly, like, we, like, walked down to, like, a couple of restaurants to, like, have, have drinks and dinner. And then, like, that was kind of, like, what we were there for. Yeah. But, yeah, staying in the winter is, like, definitely, like, a different, especially, like, the water, like seeing the water in the winter from like your hotel room is just like a little different experience. Totally. Yeah.

The Harbor Hotel and Clayton is very fun. Are we selling it, Kate? I was going to say we're turning this into a commercial for the North country. I know. North country. I was a joke that I should work for like the travel authority or whoever. You kind of should. I feel like you should.

Or you should like have an honorary like key to the city or something. Yeah. Yeah. it just like all the cities though because like yeah everybody thinks it's like so wild and crazy when i'm like oh like i go to canada every saturday to get my groceries and to go out for lunch like everybody thinks it's like so wild and crazy but then like having somebody like you who's like so familiar with the area you're like no this is like everybody does this you know yeah it's totally normal it's just it's just like we're into another state really yeah exactly yeah

No, exactly. In a physical sense. Yeah. It's that simple. I mean, it really is. Like, I just, like, drive across to bridge and I tell them I'm going to Cornwall for activities and then I cross over, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And no one bats an eye. And that, and that actually is part of the story, too. Yes, it is. We pulled it right back around here. But, yeah, look at that. Full circle. Yes.

Yeah. So it's good to know that we've had this conversation and everybody can listen to it because then they can know that you are not pulling any tricks out of your hat as to what goes on in the North Country. And that is all 100% authentic. And I can I can sign off on that that. Yes. Tessa's not fibbing with anything. You brought that. You brought that around full circle even better than I did.

Yeah. Back to where it's true comment. It's perfect. At the very beginning, yeah, that is perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we have now raved about the book. Well, the series, the book, the setting.

Tessa. Everybody gets Tessa. I think it's clear you guys need to all go read it. Oh, we do always ask normally at the end if there are any books you've read recently that you've loved or books you always recommend. Yeah. So you guys mentioned Karen Slaughter earlier. I am so, so into this new. North Falls series that she's been writing. And so I just read the new one, the Secrets We Hide, I believe

it's called. And it is just as good as the first one, which was truly mind-blowing. Like, she does something with structure and perspective in the first book that honestly, I called a writer friend and said, are we even allowed to do this? Like, this is wild. And she totally, like, if anyone can do what she can do it. And she totally pulls it off. And it's just like a mind-blowing moment. So I really enjoyed this. those books. Oh, and I'm listening to so Leah Rowan's Marion, which came out in the summer, but I've been saving it for now because it's got like, it's kind of based on Alfred Hitchcock's psycho. Like there are a lot of, so it's Mary, you know, Marian is the reference to that character. And then there's like an actual guy named Norm and the creepy hotel. And there are a lot of,

it's like very much inspired by that movie. Yeah. So I've been saving it for the spooky season, and it is excellent. I'm listening to it on an audiobook. I listened to it as well. I loved that. The audio book is amazing. It's very good. Yeah.

So I would recommend all of those. Yeah. When she wrote that book, it went from Norman Bates to Norm Billings. Yep. And part of her PR package team was to send you this pink keychain that said the Billings motel on it. and my last name is Billings. So now I have this like really cool keychain that says the Billings,

the Billings Motel. Yeah. Oh, that is so cool. Pink keychain. I wish I could. It's in my bedroom, but it's like it looks like the old like motel keychains that you would get. Yeah.

It's about like this big and it's got it got the hell. The plastic. Yeah. And it says like the Billings Motel on it and this like cursive writing. And I was like, oh my God. Like now I have my own bookish merge. that kind of feels like it was me. I have nothing like norm bellings, though.

No. Nothing like norm bellings. Definitely not. No. Thank God. Except for the good hair. I would argue you have the good, like the very good hair like him. Thank you.

Oh. Oh. Thank you. That's okay. You can have that in common. I can have that. I'll take that. Yeah.

Yeah. The head of hair is always a good compliment shake. Yeah. Especially as a male in his almost 40s. There's that. Well, as of this day, this is airing, you can all go buy the book. You can listen to the book. You can read the book.

They're both reading. But yeah, I mean, if we haven't sold you on it in an hour, I don't know what will. So go get it. Yes. And thanks for coming back. It is. Yeah, thank you guys for having me. I feel like I like strong-armed my way into this because I was like,

guys, guys, do you want to talk? Do you want to talk again? You also reached out. appropriately far enough ahead that it was easy to plan. So you did not strong arm it. I very much appreciate it. It's always so much fun. And yeah,

all 2027, we'll be back. The tripod will be back in fall 2027. I'm book and Tessa now.