Bookwild - NoirCon, Feminist Horror and Monstrous Men with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: November 7, 2025

This week, Halley is back and she shares her experiences at NoirCon, I share my new obsession with Scream With Me, a non-fiction book that draws parallels between popular horror movies from 1968-1980 and feminism, and then we must dive into the monstrous men who star in and/or create some of said films. Because how could we not end up talking about that??We also do a brief bit on Lily Allen's new album West End Girl, Kayla Nicole's Halloween clapback, and the continuing conflict of Ms. Swift. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

So I'm super excited because Hallie just keeps doing cool stuff, cool bookish stuff. Not that you're not cool in general, but Hallie is back and we have lots to talk about. Yeah, I'm excited. It's so good to see you back. Good to be back on the pod. Thank you for having me. I know. I had a few people that were like, where is Hallie? And I was like, she's out doing things. She's traveling. She's going to morgue. But yeah. So, well, I feel like in a catching up since it probably makes sense to talk about NoirCon that you were at here recently.

Yeah, sure. Yeah. How was that? A couple weeks ago, I went to NoirCon, which is, as you might have guessed, from the title, is a convention or conference all about all things noir. And it's run by this great guy Lou Boxer, who's a big noir fan and big part of the community. and it's often sort of evenly split between panels on like noir literature, which can be throwbacky,

but also incorporates a lot of like, you know, a lot of who your favorite authors would be. And then noir film. And this year I would say it was a little heavier on the film than the year before. I didn't know that that was part of it. That's kind of cool. Yeah.

So they'll be, they'll have like movie screenings. Like Kate, they pack in so much. Like the first year I went was last year. Last two years it's been in Palm Springs, which like I don't need an excuse to go to Palm Springs. I love it.

Little desert town two and a half hours outside of Los Angeles that's like, where the stars of yesterday used to go, you know? So they'll go from like panels will start at like eight or nine in the morning and go till midnight. Like that's the conference packs it in like all the day. The first year I went, which was last year, I was just like exhausted. I do remember like going to even like. seven with Thriller Fest.

I was like, that's a lot, but that's not, I'm sure it's longer than that. It's a lot. I mean, part of it is they are showing movies in there. So you'll have like, you know, two, two and a half hour chunk where it's a movie. And then somebody doing like a presentation after the movie, maybe about the history or talking about the themes or different things. And so like, I'll not go to the movies you didn't want to go to. And I skipped one or two this year.

But it was great. I watched. So this year I would say it was more focus on movies. And I watched kind of three things that were standouts for me. One is a film called Detour from the 1940s. I think it's 1945. So it looks different now because we are on Zoom. So if you are watching on YouTube, my internet failed me.

But Hallie has tried to tell me about detour. This will be her third time, maybe fourth. So go for it. It's going to happen. Okay. Detour is a film that came out in 1945-ish, I think, adjacent to that, starring Tom Neal. And it's a very classic noir short, I think it's like 68 minutes, told 95% of the way through flashback. And it's, and in voiceover flashback.

So you get this kind of bookend of this guy at the beginning and he's at a diner and you can tell something's gone wrong, but you don't totally know what. and then he does a flashback. And basically he's kind of going through the story of his life recently. He was a piano player. He's in love with this girl. She decides not to marry him. She's going to move to Los Angeles, make her big break. He's like, I'm going to join her.

And he hitches a ride with somebody across country. And midway through the ride, this guy kind of just dies. of like they don't tell you what it's after you find out he's very well they're riding along together he's like driving our main character and he looks over and the guy is not responsive and he pulls over to the side of the road

and he opens the door and the guy falls out and he's like oh he fell out and he hit his head and he died and so from there the story takes a couple of twists and turns I won't fully ruin it for you but the coolest piece of the story is that you become aware as you're watching it that you're so deeply inside this man's subjective POV, you know, because he's

doing this first person voiceover and he's really telling you what's happening. But he and the movie are an unreliable narrator and that things cannot possibly have happened the way that you have seen them on the screen because it just doesn't make sense that they would have happened that way. Oh my God. For example, this opening thing, I'm watching it and he's like, he just died. Nobody would believe me. Da-da-da-da. And you're like, well, but how did he die? And So you become aware as you're watching it that like he's telling you a version of this thing, but it couldn't possibly be what happened. But it's, it's very interesting because it's like it's the camera line to you too.

And it's just, it's very well done. And so I highly recommend if you get a chance to watch it. It's a short, brutal ride. And it's like a very cool POV thing they're doing within this like crazy. It's a lot of story. Yeah. That sounds amazing and it kind of reminds me of the fun of strange darling. Yeah.

Yes. But yeah, that one doesn't have voiceover, but the structure. Right. The structure is receiving. Totally. You know I love a deceiving structure to figure out. I know. You got to watch it.

And it's like what's very subtle about it is that like, so we had this whole discussion about it afterwards. And the person who was giving this discussion about it basically said this thing, which I, this is going to sound, I'm tuning my own horn, but like I had started to realize that watching it. Like, oh, this couldn't possibly be like how. And then I'm also just being like such a man, just being like, I couldn't help, but these people just keep dying. Like, but what's interesting is the movie doesn't explicitly say that. Like, you don't get to the end and there's a reveal where somebody says, like, you've been lying to us.

They kind of leave it. So, like, we're having this discussion about it and the person who's talking about it and the impact of the film. is saying, you know, you're in this subjective experience and you're realizing it couldn't possibly have happened that way. There were multiple men in the theater that I was watching it with who were just like, this poor guy just can't get a break. And I was like, that's not the movie at all. Like, you had missed it.

It's very interesting. Oh, my gosh. Media literacy is a whole thing. A whole thing. A whole thing lately. Highly recommend. And then the crazy story associated with it. So Tom Neal was this.

kind of infamous oh, infamous Hollywood actor. He'd been involved in some big leg love triangles back in the day,

which like, happy to geek out about, but I'll do the Cliff Notes version. So he's married multiple times, eventually has kind of like Flamed out of Hollywood

is never quite as big a star as he wanted to be. And he goes and lives in Palm Springs and he marries a much younger woman who wouldn't you know, they have a very tumultuous, turbulent relationship

to the point where she even tells friends, if something happens to me, he killed me. So she tries to leave him. He comes back into town. They kind of reunite for a little bit. They're having this kind of bender weekend and she turns up dead. And he says that she pulled out a gun and they struggled for the gun and it just went off. But forensically, that could not have happened either.

like she was shot she was like lying on a couch shot like through the top of her head like that's not a struggle that doesn't make sense so he he uh gets indicted for it goes to a um trial he does a bunch of crazy PR stuff including having this like huge um photo shoot at her grave uh only it's not actually her grave he just picked the most photogenic grave and so there's the whole photo shoot spread of him at this grave being like, my poor dead wife, I loved her so, but it's not even her grave. Like, it's so crazy. Oh, my gosh. Getting off. He doesn't go to jail for it. Oh, my God. Yeah. Bruce is really mad about it too. For everyone who was like, Kate really isn't reacting that much. No, I was just being barked at that entire time. Oh, no, I'm so sorry.

It's okay. I was still like invested. I can tell. You were doing. you're doing a really good job of striking between like I'm listening and also you're like a dog down just like, come on, buddy. He's so loud and forcefully that like his breath was hitting me. Oh my God. That was the kind of bark. Oh my gosh. Anyway.

He's very mad about the internet foibles. He's really mad about the way that that all came together. But it does make it a really interesting story. Doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Damn.

I know. I know. I need to watch this movie. You're going to convince me, you convinced me to watch black and white movie. I don't know that I can't think of a time that I do. I'm telling you, 68 minutes. It's not the greatest movie that's ever happened, but it is an incredible. I know.

And it's kind of cool seeing like the origins, origin stories of like a genre. Totally. Totally. And like it very much is, you know, I feel like the unreliable narrator is something we see a lot in fiction. And you even see it in movies too, but you generally, I would say in a movie, we take a camera to be a reliable narrator, right? Like, you might have a character lying to you. But, like, in order for the audience to play along, the camera is showing you what's happening to some degree. But this one is just like, screw that.

Right. Totally. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I love narratives that flip. I haven't watched one in a while. So that'll be I haven't watched like a mind bendy thing, but I also haven't been watching much TV either. So there's that.

Did you see him in theaters? It's literally just called him H.I.M. No, I didn't. Remind me what that one's about. Why do I, I feel like I could live. Did you ever read Chang Gang All Stars? No, I did not. Well, it is horror. the metaphor of football. Right. Right. And then like how populations of people have had to use their bodies as a way to get out of difficult situations. And then what that means when like you have all of that pressure to be like go be great.

It's really good. I couldn't remember if we talked about it. previously or not, but I don't think we did. No, I need to check that out. That sounds great. I do remember reading a few reviews of it at the time and it sounded really interesting. Like, is it Damon Waynes or Marlon Waynes or yes? Yeah. Yes.

Marlon. Yeah. And Tyreek Withers who Gare and I are collectively obsessed with right now. Like, amazing. It just went for that. We did see it in theaters, which it's just amazing. The imagery is, the imagery is so cool. And I haven't talked with anyone long form about it.

I need to watch it. Then we can. Yeah. Yeah. But that's kind of a good segue into horror technically. Yes. Which was one of the other things we were going to, you know, I can't help myself anymore. But it's all I talk about.

I love it. But I read this book called Screen With Me by Eleanor Johnson. And I always forget like the subtitle, so I had to look it up. But the like subtitle is horror films and the Rise of American Feminism, 1968 to 1980. Very specific. But she basically talks about, I can't remember if it's four or five films, Rosemary's Baby, the Exorcist, The Shining, and there are more.

So it doesn't have the number in the synopsis because alien will. one of them. Classic movies that I had not thought about in depth in a while. And I probably should go and rewatch them now because a lot of them like I watched before I was obsessed with stories. So like I'm sure it would be a different experience now. But she wrote, of course, I'm just like losing my voice as I go into this. But she wrote a whole nonfiction book about.

how these horror films, whether they intended to even or not, were reflecting how we were talking about women's bodies and rights and like all of that. That's what I was saying when you were. That time period, I'm thinking the passage of Roe and I'm thinking, you know, like even 1968, I'm curious. I mean, Rosemary's baby, you can't get away from also Polanski, whose wife is murdered in I know. And, you know, like, there's so much. And she talks about then the weirdness that she talks about what you're saying. There's like a whole chapter.

I think it's like right in the middle. And it's, I listened to it. And the narrator was even like kind of funny about it. Because there's something that's almost like, imagine like record scratch. Like, okay. So now I'm going to talk about like some of the men who were telling me story. Exactly. But then like I didn't realize.

that I didn't realize that Stepford wives and Rosemary's baby were by the same author too. Yeah. Ira Levin.

Yes, Ira Levin who wrote a bunch of different things that were turning. Then there's this like other fascinating part that there was like a Jewish man who was actually writing these stories.

So even these like kind of questionable directors totally up. Then there's like this really feminist man writing it as books first. So it's like really fascinating she definitely goes into separate wives um and rosemary's baby but it was like i have so many things i need to rewatch now yeah totally but what i got really obsessed with this was literally i think

it's the intro like it's not we're like not even in chapter one um but she basically exactly what you're saying it like opens up when she said like she basically says when the u.s supreme court leaked its intention to reverse Roe versus Wade, she started crying basically in class. She's a professor. And she saw it, like, when she was teaching class at the time. And that, but then, like, this is like within the first couple paragraphs. It says, and then I did what I always do when I get alarms about a social or political situation. I turn to art.

This time I turned specifically to horror. And then I love this part, too. It says now this turn to art may seem avoidant or a political. For me, it's anything but I have long believed and long argued both in my teaching and my writing that art is where the most complex social problems and traumas get worked through and process sometimes long before a culture is fully prepared to grapple with those problems and traumas in mainstream public discourse. And I was like, well, I'm going to love this book.

You're like, yes. I'm like, you found the right audience. Yes. And I, like, the way that I hadn't even thought of, like, the problematic directors behind these, because, like, at first she's just kind of, like, going through the stories and, like, teasing out and pointing all of these, like, social things out, um, throughout the stories. but then it's like they it's but like technically those men are part of why those stories reached the masses and that's such a tricky totally it really is it like they're telling these

stories that are like getting a point across a viewpoint that I think is important in the moment but also with them comes all the baggage I mean Polanski is somebody I could talk about for forever because I have such a complicated feel like I really love a lot of his work And he himself has like the most fucked up life story of all time. You know, like survives the Holocaust and his family doesn't. His wife is murdered. His wife and baby are murdered in this like seminal tragedy. And then he also did drug and rape, like a 13 year old girl.

Like there's like no getting away from like all the pieces of it. And yeah, it's so complicated and interesting. I know. And like even she kind of, I don't think she's very directly at any point. like says this but kind of touches on the fact that like even if those men were kind of attracted to the stories

because there was like abuse to women in those stories it doesn't detract from the fact that other people interpreting the art and seeing like the like the horror differently maybe

that's such a good point that's such a good point and it actually makes me think of a thing I thought of at noir con sorry I'm going to just bring this in a Oh, that's like awesome. I was listening to this panel of male writers, all male writers. And I was like, noir con, like, noir people who love noir tend to be like jaded hippies. And so like often I find myself very like politically aligned with them. Yes.

Also like the older white man of it all. And like there was last year when I went, a man walked by me and just kissed my shoulder and like kept on going. Like it's just some stuff from, oh yeah, that's in here too. And so I was sitting on this panel listening to the. these three men talk and they were talking about using real life crimes as inspiration. And one of the men could not stop talking about different sexual assaults that like he was writing about like, oh, because my friend was sexually assaulted or like, I know this thing happened in Hollywood, all these different things. And he just kept using it for all the women in his, uh, stories. And I just

had this feeling. And I, I don't usually feel this way. Like, I feel like there are some things writers shouldn't do, but I don't really believe in being like saying like, writers can't write it outside their own experience. Right. I think if you do it, your fair game to get called out if you do it wrong. You know what I mean? But I don't tend to be, but I don't tend to be somebody who's like, you should never write about an experience that you haven't had. But I was like, you know what? I'm not interested in men writing about sexual assault to women anymore. Like I guess I'm not, you know, like if you want to write about that, why not write about a man getting sexually assaulted? Like, that happens too. Like it's the question there, the thing that you said that made me think about

that is this sort of like how much of this is titillation and how much of this is sort of like, this is the only way I can like comprehend a woman's experience is that she's been stigmatized in a certain way. And so I think with like all of the movies that you're talking about, it's this interesting thing where it's like there are very feminine parts of it. But then there's parts of it too where you're like, is Polanski Duranda talking about this because it's like vaguely titillating to him or like, is Deptford Wives? That's the. only way we can conceive of women. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's uncomfortable. I know. And like, so impactful. Yeah. Even like you see, um, well, kind of like what you were

talking about with, with detour when I was saying it's kind of cool to see the beginning, beginnings of genres or like things that contribute to it. I hadn't thought of how much these movies are like stories that are even being kind of retold now. Totally. Which is always the case in genres technically. Before I forget, I keep forgetting. So noir and the narrator, that episode, I feel like we even probably talked about it when we talked about the studio, but they have that hilarious episode that is like a noir episode that

has like the like really intense um or the constant narration basically totally but then but that was reminding me of his have you seen the uh martin martin scorzzi oh the doc yes i haven't but i've documentary just leave my mind okay um it's amazing too but he is someone who also that you kind of notice it as they're going through his career he has used narration kind of the entire time and so then i was like this is making me appreciate the studio episode even more yeah because they're like showing these clips that were so much like it and then he was in the show so in an odd very matrixy way Apple produce a documentary that will make you want to rewatch episodes of the studio. Amazing.

I know. It is really good. I did see that episode of the studio. It is great where it's got the like, yeah, and he's like looking for the McGuffin and like all the ropes of like a noir. And then I will never not find it hilarious, that pilot episode of the studio where he's like,

we have to make a Kool-Aid movie. And then he's like, I want to do my Jim Jones thing. you just, my cold go in his head of like, that's the Kool-Aid movie. Yes. Oh, no.

Yes. And like literally the, um, seeing this documentary was making it like even, I had a greater appreciation for so many of the things that they were referencing with Martin for like so long throughout it. It was like, it was crazy.

And then like like the way that of course that's like what the direction he would want go with like. Totally. Which also like I came out of that also being like but now I do want a Martin Scorsese Jim Jones project. Like he would do it well. I would love that. Yeah. He really would.

But yeah. So anyone who, anyone who likes documentaries in general, it's a really good documentary. But then if you're also interested in film and actually like what was what stood out to me so much, seeing his career back to back was how much he really was like observing toxic masculinity from like a really long time. Totally. Before we were had the, I don't think that word was in the zeitgeist when he started in the 70s.

I don't think. Like taxi driver and all of like really early stuff that were like in taxi driver. It was re-learning about like the plot and everything. I was like, this is the Joker. like it was so much what like the walking phoenix joker was so fascinating seeing the i think he's i think the walking phoenix joker if i understand correctly directly is referencing the scorsese film um king of comedy that there's like like real like and there's that one yes making about that you're right yeah i kept because it's like a six-part documentary and i just

i think i think that's what it was later i was like this one is like the joker too Totally. And I think that that's like a like a, I forget who the director of Joker is, but I think he was like sort of homageing. Yeah. Okay. Well, then checks out. It checks out. But yeah, good for him. Like there weren't too many men actually like I think what I was noticing through a lot of his movies is like he's not flinching away from like no bad people like do really bad shit. Like it doesn't seem like it was gratuitous. It did feel like he was trying to understand. that basically. And not like valorizing them. Although I do feel like there have been responses to his films that do like Laura for violence. But like I think he is pretty clearly critiquing it. Yes. In the movies. Yeah. They do cover that. Like there are like there's been people of people like staged scenes. It's wild. I got to watch this. It's really, it's really, really good. But yeah, I had also just read this book recently. And it is interesting some of the how horror and noir have some similar stuff, which is probably why that's like crossing over for me.

But the other part that I thought was so cool that she talks about. Oh, I'm going to find it. Here we go. So she talks about like tragedy and horror as well. And so like how Aristotle defined tragedy by saying that it makes. viewers feel fear and pity so that they can experience a catharsis at the end. And she breaks down that the Greek words for fear and pity are phobos, cognate with phobia, and alias, which means compassion, mercy, and clemency. So it's not just straight pity with like the condescending

frating of that term in modern English, which made me laugh. No one wants to be pity, but everyone wants to experience compassion, mercy, and clemency. So then she has this, I have this bolded because I loved it so much. But she says that alios is a social and interpersonal good because it teaches people to feel empathic about and merciful toward one's fellow citizens. Tragedy makes you a better person. Tragedy is pro-social. And I was like, wow. And so then she talks about like the way that you feel it so strongly, like the genre itself tends to be putting you into the mind of someone up against something. Yeah. Terrible. And so like kind of by its nature, it almost is, you can force, I say that lovingly, empathy because people are like, oh my God, that would be

terrible. Totally. And with like different themes and different stories, you're actually helping people be like, oh, wow. Isn't that so interesting? I mean, I totally agree. And that is like blowing my mind too. But isn't it so interesting? But like the way that we can like get into that empathetic state is almost through like something terrible happening.

Like you couldn't really have a movie where you're like and all these good things happen to this person. They deserved it. And people would have the same emotional experience. You'd be kind of like. Okay. Yeah. You know what I mean?

It's like it's interesting. A vehicle for like expanding empathy kind of. needs to be horror. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then she basically breaks down how that time period for about 12 years, the amount of domestic horror that was coming out is what she labels all of these films. And we just, again, another situation where you didn't have the word for it, but it was starting to happen where a lot of these films, even Alien, the way that she broke it. Like, yes, it's like impregnating people. So like it, the metaphor is. right there but like also the way like it made me like how did I not how have I not noticed all of

this totally something I love to do to myself and I'm like because you're just like learning it right right now but go ahead and so interesting of like a sociopolitical time in which like yeah home space was starting to become like horrifying to women and or like women are in the workforce more and like you know like it is it's like very much meeting the moment too yeah It's fascinating. So I have so many notes from this one, but I just feel like especially right now, everyone needs some more empathy. And so that's where I'm probably obsessed with horror at the moment, too, where I'm like, literally helps us understand what other people are going through, which also we're recording this after Prop 50 got passed. and there was there were a lot of Democrats that want a lot of stuff.

I know. So when I knew when I knew that you were coming on, I was like, oh my gosh, my California girl. I know, right? It is, it is a happy day. I feel like without leading in, I mean, I'll lean into politics all the time. And I don't think like, I mean, thrilled to see Virginia and New Jersey. Thrill about New York. I screamed.

Detroit. Yes, Detroit. I mean. And then, yeah, California passes Prop 50, which I was like, all of it. We got all of it? It feels like a pretty clear referendum that people are not happy with the administration. And it was, I mean, that's a complicated thing for me to be saying it this time. Fair enough.

But I, oh, what was I going to say about that? Oh, I have been saying that I hoped that it was that a lot of people were ignorant and not that everyone was cruel. And that's been like the big turning point for me where I was like okay. And I think people once they saw what was

actually happening, like they were actually upset and that's relieving for me. And I think that there's, I still think like, not to turn book wilds into politics wild, but like I still worry that I don't know that the Democrats in general have like a great

like who's the person we're rallying around? Is it Newsome? Like, you know what I mean? Whereas I think the New York City mayor election, if it shows us anything, it shows us that like when there is a candidate that somebody that people are excited about, they turn out. Yes. I think that we-

And kindness actually works. Yeah. And so I think that there's, but I was so excited. I'm with you though. I loved one of the tweets that was like, I just want to say I have zero faith in the two-party system. Yeah, but at least this happened. That's pretty much how I feel by. Like, I, I agree. I don't think the Democrats are our saviors either. No, no run, though. No, but it is encouraging to be like everywhere leaned more blue. Like, you know what I mean?

The fact that, yeah, that's what made me feel so relieved because I was just like, oh, my God, how many people are scary out there that I didn't know about. And now it feels like they're at least less. Yeah, totally. could we all see this coming yes um but i'm glad that i'm glad that it took less than a year for people to be like oh no this isn't good totally totally and hope we ride that way through the midterms and into beyond uh also just because it's relevant and where we're at here um the great gatsby is about the perils of wealth. Just for my bookish people who already know that. But it, my friend McKinsey posted about it too, but I thought it was a perfect time to shout out. There's a book called The Great

Man by, sometimes I get her last, her two last names flipped by Kyra Davis Yuri. That is a retelling of it with the main characters, I think his name is Charlie, is a black man. man who comes back from serving in World War two. Yes. Yeah. It would be the time period. All of a sudden, I doubted myself. Oh, for Greg Gatsby, I think it might be World War I, right? Because they're roaring 20s. Yes, you're right. It's the 20s. Yes. Yeah. So it's a really great retelling, basically, that almost, in my opinion, actually speaks to the themes even better because it's told, from such a different perspective.

Okay, I got to read that. It's fantastic. And it's insane that there was a great Gatsby party the night before Snap Benefits stopped. So. Yeah, feels intentional. That's not the point. Feels like, feels very literacy. You know, yeah. Little, none of them have read the book.

That's the better great Gatsby recommendation in my opinion. Fair enough. I mean, I kind of, I stroke, the great Gatsby is one of those ones. Like, speaking of the Scorsese, right? Like, I think Fitzgerald is critiquing. Like, we all agree that, right? Like, he's critiquing this ostentatious wealth. He's critiquing, like, the American striver system, like, and yet.

The American dream. Like, the American dream, right, as accessible. And yet people throw Great Gatsby parties, let alone a fucking government that's shut down that's like depriving people of their food and the things they survive. Like, I mean, that is like a height of insane casual cruelty and just as crazy to me. That's what it is to me. Cruelty is what I like keep saying about it. Like, are you kidding me?

And the fact that, yeah, the judges are ordering it to happen and it's not happening. And I'm like, oh, my God. I know. We're really running up against like what happens if they keep ruling against him and he just doesn't listen. Which was, yeah. When I first saw the news, I was basically telling Tyler, I was like that the judge ordered. I was like, I was like judges have ordered things in the last couple months that he hasn't cared about.

Like it, the checks and balances are not checking and bouncing at all anymore. Yeah. But the voters, the voters came out. Voters came out. There's no hope. So. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. we'll see how much of that i mean i will keep in a decent amount of it but obviously i got sidetracked by barking and lane's mom fair enough um i'm just saying did i have i do have so many i have like four pages oh yeah tell more get me with more where is oh i do okay this is what i like to um where does it start okay so then she also talks about it says there's a crucial difference between tragedy and horror. So she kind of like bounces off of the Aristotle talking about tragedy. And so she says tragedies actually tend to end neatly.

Sure, everyone dies and there's often quite a lot of blood on the floor at the end. But there's usually an accompanying sense that the violence is done now. The social order will be restored, maybe even improved upon because of the tragic events. tragedy is defined by its creation of catharsis, purification, cleansing, or purging in the audience. We have our catharsis and we move on. Order is restored. We can release a hard-earned sigh of relief at the end of the play. But in horror by sharp contrast, we do not get catharsis. Instead, we get what I call a horror hangover.

This is so fascinating to me. She says things end messy and chaotic with a sense that the horror has. ended and that maybe it never will when we leave the theater after seeing a horror film we feel nervous as we walk out the steps to our house we wonder if someone's lurking in our apartment the unease lingers horror stays with you keeps you hypervigilant against threats keeps you in a state of activation and vulnerability for some period after the film is over and in some cases the activation and vigilance and vulnerability stay with you a long time that's the point in fact of horror And that's why horror and tragedy, although analogous, in so many ways, are radically different in ultimate effect.

And I was like, wow, that's like so many cool things about horror and tragedy. Totally. I never, like, looked at it that way. But like, wow, how incredible. Like, this is, like, all in the intro. I'm not into any of the chapters. And I don't have any more. So I really don't worry.

I won't just keep reading from it. But this was all in the intro. And I was like, this is amazing. Yeah. Have you revisited any of the movies that she talks about since you've read it? I have not. I need to. I have been listening to audiobooks until I fell asleep, which is dangerous because

you don't know where you actually fell asleep. But I need to. I need to rewatch that. I need to watch Detour. I've got stuff to watch, basically. That sounds incredible. I love. theory like this like it makes me think they have two things that i really likes that i think we've talked about

on the this before monsters by claire deterre where she basically kind of takes the and she like polansky is one of her starting yeah Woody allen and like well how do you take what do you do with like the good art of bad people mostly bad men but not just bad men but she basically talks about like the thing for a man that's like the worst thing is like rape or murder or like you know and then for women it's like being a bad mother. And she's like, you know, like she cites certain examples of people that are like held up as like the art monsters for women. And it's, you know, not that women aren't also capable of very dark things, but like it tends to be like, she was a bad mother. She abandoned her child, you know, and you're like, okay.

Yeah. Yeah, that's, dad wasn't there at all, but we don't care. Right. I know. Yeah, I need to listen to that one still. And then there's another one. Bloomhouse just put out a book about horror over the last 15 years like now that one. Horror's new wave 15 years of Bloomhouse.

So I want to listen to that one too. I have so many nonfiction to listen to. Did you watch or read or listen to any like spectacular spooky content in October? Okay. So in October, yes. Yeah, that was October. I don't think it's out yet, but it's called I'll make a spectacle of you by Beatrice Winnifred Iker. So, okay, November 18th is when this one comes out, but I got to listen to it through Netgalley.

It is really, really, really, really good. I will say. And it was like so hard to say this honestly in my review because I've now narrated an audiobook. She does. The narrator is a little bit nasal and sometimes feels like she's yelling at you. It's a little bit the truth. So listen to the sample.

I am not necessarily saying the audiobook was the best version. I get it. However, the story was so fantastic. And I couldn't buy the text. text because it doesn't exist yet, that I was still just like, I was like, it's okay. Like thankfully I've listened to enough audiobooks that I could handle a little bit better. The story was so good that I was still listening. So that's how good the story is.

But it's about a woman who, like, she's in her late 20. She's in grad school for history. She's basically a historian. Zora is her name. And she is like in her dream program, the Appalachian. studies at Brixbury University, which is like a fictional HBCU basically. And there are strange things happening in the woods outside her, where her grad school is. And basically she starts having visions of things that were happening in the 1920s and 30s, I think.

And then there's like also this diary of a woman from that time period. that she's working through for like her thesis. So you get like some historical fiction, but it's only like 15 or 20%. Yeah, yeah. And then it picks up as it goes on because like the timelines start to converge. But basically it's very witchy. There's like folklore. There's all kinds of spooky vibes that are really, really good.

So November 8th. That's incredible. Okay. It was so good. And then I started following the author. And she shared a whole post about how it was. like sinners and sometimes I don't want to be like a white person just saying every good black horror is about sinners but then I was kind of happy when she shared it because then I

you're like yeah stories yeah totally you saw sinners it's very Annie vibes like who do is how she's like connected to her ancestors love it love it it is really really good did you read anything horrory I did and I also have like a couple movies that I watched that were really good. The one that I read that was horrory, it's been out for a minute, but play nice by Rachel Harrison. Yes. I love that book.

Right behind my shoulder. Nice. I just love her. You know, I feel like she's such a good writer. I know I'm always going to have a good time. And she's like maybe the level of like reading horror that I really like, which is to say like, I'm not going to have nightmares.

Yes. Pink horror is what I saw her. post about too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was great. And then I had a scary movie marathon with another writer, Stephanie Roble, who wrote Darlene Gold in the Hitchcock Hotel. That is, okay, I've been wanting to listen to Hitchhawk. Oh, it's good. It's really good. It's really good. Yes. And so we, I'm part of this, this group of L.A. writers and I get together and like go to dinner once a month and hang out. And the other two writers in our group were like, we will not be engaging in the scary movie marathon. So we sat and we watched five, which was maybe.

It was great. I had a great time. But like the standouts for me were, we watched this movie. This was the one that I went to bat for called The Vanishing, which I would say is really more horror than thriller, although it has a truly horrifying ending. But it's about this like man and woman, they're Belgian. It's in the 80s. and they're like going on a road trip to France to like this home that she has. And they stop at a gas station.

She goes missing. And like something that really struck me, which like of course is true and you see it and other things. But like 1980, I think it was filmed in 88, which is when I was born. So it doesn't feel like that long ago. But like nobody has cell phones.

There's no internet. Like you're truly like part of the horror of it was like you, yeah, how would you find this person? Is isolation is very different. Yeah. Like you're truly like this person's gone. on and I'll just never see them again and I'll never know why.

And like it's, it was a good one. Ooh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I need to add that one to my DB watch list as well. And then another standout we watched was called host.

And it was a pandemic film and I think it's British. And it's like a group of so. It's both I think was filmed during the pandemic but also is set in the pandemic. And it's like an indie film. It's like a group of friends who get together for like a, Zoom chat on a Friday night, but they do a seance over Zoom, and then they unlock something that comes to all of them. But you're seeing it all through like Zoom boxes on the screen. It's really good. Have we talked about the movie searching that's like all through a computer

screen? Oh, I think you've told me about this, but tell me again. Well, the gist of it is like it's in present time, but like a single dad's daughter goes. missing and it's told all through him like looking through her computer his computer photos like you they paid for i think even the apple ui like you feel like you're like watching what someone's doing on a macbook basically wow wow wow wow and it was such a creative way to like then like when he had somewhere to go he's on his phone and so you're seeing it through that totally so that that production styles always i love that production style so i love that production style now I need to watch host. Yeah, you should definitely watch host. It's also really short. I think it's

like only an hour long. That's the thing where it's like you don't want the gimmick to outlast. You know what I'm like? And so they kind of get in, get out. It was, it was good. It was scary. I screamed. Oh, it's not kind of scary. I mean, not, it's not scarier than oddity, which I know we both watched and loved last. I was just thinking about oddity. It's because in my book club a couple weeks ago, we were talking. or she, one of the book club members had just watched Audity. And we were talking about the scene that's like the scariest scene. And we all, everyone who's seen it knows what we're talking about is so scary.

It's there's, I actually feel like I don't know what you're talking about because I remember several scenes. Okay, that's a good point. So the tent. Yes, the tent. That was the way that I brought it up to her too. I was like the tent scene. Oh, my God. Yeah, that is tense.

And I even rewind. it because I interviewed the director. So I rewatched it once he was on streaming and I knew what was going to happen. And it was still terrifying. Still so scary. And it's like such a smart, like the open premise of that guy coming and being like you have to get out of the house. And at first you're like, fuck no. Like don't even been talking to this guy.

And then the way it flipped, it starts to like change. And you're just like, oh, God, I don't know what to believe now. It was so good. Yes. So there's another. That's a horror movie. movie if anyone is still do you I'm assuming some people still feel like watching horror in no longer I think there's people who do it year round call them so not a seasonal

really like I'm just not like it's like it's whatever the whatever story I'm in the mood for I hear you and I like a colder setting but I mean yeah on the flip side I got so obsessed with essay cosby this year and it's like all in the humid so totally totally very different vibe yeah yeah man we have so many good horror and noir recommendations i know we really do what are you what are you consuming and enjoying right now i actually like am like second chapter into i was a teenage slasher by stephen graham jones yeah yeah how is that it is i mean the i'm listening to it and the narrator is like he's he really is bringing a a vibe to it that I think you wouldn't get if you were just reading it yeah um kind of like the nonchalant but scared

angst of being a teenager he's 17 years old like the main character um so basically what I'm saying is the two chapters I've listened to have really established a very strong voice yeah and I like that the synopsis doesn't say much. And I've heard that like it's just so unlike what you think it's going to be. So I have no clue what's it's fine. I literally like started it this morning. So I kind of love that. Yeah.

Are you reading anything now? Yeah. I'm reading, I'm reading a couple of things. One of one thing I just finished was a collection of short stories by Patricia Highsmith. she of talented Mr. Ripley and all the others, which also actually they showed the

1996 or 1998 Matt Damon version of talented Mr. Ripley and I hadn't seen that movie at Norcon I hadn't seen that movie in years. Yeah. It's so good. If you haven't watched it lately, I haven't.

It's like a rewatch. It's so good. I mean, it's like young Jude Law, young Gwyneth Poutre. Like people have never been so beautiful. in Italy and like it was crazy. And then we had like a little, I can't stop talking about Norcon, I guess. Sorry, we had like a little afterwards with Megan Abbott, my queen. And one of the producers of the film who actually like told us this really interesting tidbit.

And I mentioned it because it's interesting for writing, which is that like the first half of the movie is so like, we're in beautiful Italy and we're like having this like hedonistic time and like, I'm in love what you'd love. but he's in love with quiddotos and blah, blah, blah. And then you get to the midpoint twist, which is a murder. Mm-hmm. And they were like, when we first showed it to test audiences, they hated it. And it was because they hadn't signposted that darkness was coming.

Oh. A framing device that's in the movie now where it kind of like starts with an short voiceover by Matt Damon, basically talking about like, I didn't know how bad things were going to get, yada, yada, yada. So you kind of signpost that something bad is having. happening and then that lets you like get darker later which i think is an interesting like craft trick to think about so fascinating because he was basically like people would come out of it and be like fuck you what movie was this like we're in italy having the best time of our lives and now suddenly people are dead like i don't know what to do here that makes sense which is fascinating

because again you think about um like the affair was one of the first tv shows of where i experienced the you like front load tragedy and in that case really mysterious unsolved tragedy and then jump back and so you're like oh this isn't a pretty Montauk vacation show. Totally totally. And I do think like that is something like for anybody interested in creating any kind of art to think about is like what expectations are you setting up and what and like how do you how can you play with those but then also when do you need. to be like, hey, audiences, we're going to get murdery.

So if you think this is a rom-com in Italy, you are wrong. This is not what's going to happen. Right. It is fascinating to, because then you get into, like, you do need to establish vibes, but I've been talking a little bit more lately about how, like, sometimes you don't, I don't want to know, like, a lengthy synopsis. Totally. And so then the vibes end up mattering.

But where was I going with that? Was there one that was deceptive here recently? It has disappeared from my mind. I don't know. I don't know. It was something about vibes. But then my next point was that I didn't want to forget was with the talented Mr. Ripley.

That is one that like I don't want you to tell me that it's a cop. Yeah. So that's like I have, I don't know why that was sticking out to me. I think I was thinking about it. No, I saw it on a book. I'm like, I don't want to know that because I was so glad that I didn't hear it. If you haven't seen saltburn by now, I mean, we're so far out. But I was so happy that I didn't see that comparison until like a week after I saw it. Because I was like, I don't want to know.

Yeah, totally. It's a, it's a big spoiler. It's like, it's like when you read the back of a book and it's like, you won't believe the twist. And you're like, so now all I'm doing is thinking about what the twist could be. And it's a. It's a. It's a. It's a. It's a. It's a story. It's a story. It's a same with uh, Ripley, I think, and also like, gone girl. I think, yes, totally. I think Highsmith is a little overcompt in general, even though she's a pillar of the crime right. Like, I understand it, but like, I feel like it's sort of a shorthand to signify like highbrow. Yeah. Pretty much very throwback to, you know, and it's like, okay. Yeah. I know. It's so hard to. Sometimes even when I'm writing reviews where I'm like,

you need to know this, but it's better if you don't know it. Like there are a couple books where I'm like, sometimes I'll say that in my post, though, where I'll be like, if hearing a really specific comp might make you want to read it, I can tell you more specific comps, but. Because some people do like it. But then like I'm thinking of one specifically that I'm now talking around. That's why I sound weird. But yeah, like one of my favorite books.

ever. I can't actually really talk about what's happening. Totally. To convince someone to read it because it's better to not know. Totally. Have you, when was the last time you went into something like truly blind? Like I didn't look up anything about what this is and I'm just like here doing it. Because I feel like that's a unique experience too. In some ways, the one I just listened to was like that. I'll make a spectacle of you because I just kind of skimmed the like, you know, like the bolded that sometimes just up top on net galley. So like I hadn't seen anyone post about it. I didn't like read the synopsis very much. And so I was even kind of learning like, oh, she is connected to her ancestors in the 1920s and 30s. So like some of the layers I didn't know.

Yeah, totally. That I've now told everyone. But that was probably the last. Do you ever go completely blind into a book? Sometimes I am. I don't know. I don't know. know that I've done it with a book lately. I mean, I feel like I would do it with something like Rachel Harrison, somebody where it's like, I know I'm going to have a good time. So like whatever you're going to throw in front of me, like I don't need to go to it. And like sometimes that can be nice. I think I did that with a couple of the movies I watched with Stephanie when we did our like, I didn't pull up beforehand. So I was just like, I'm just sitting here ready for whatever's going to happen to me. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. With movies especially that you're, that's where I probably

have I told you that actually Tron was like pretty fucking decent I don't know this no okay yeah around my birthday we were like I was like can we just try to go to movies so we saw a two or three back then but Tron I had seen got decent reviews like was actually kind of again

sometimes I will save my favorite like film content makers to watch it after I've seen it. But I'd seen enough people saying like, it's pretty good. And I was like, let's go see it. Especially in theaters. It's like one of those like visual ones that like it's going to be better in theater.

But it had some like really smart parallels to Frankenstein, which was fascinating since that was about to come out. Yeah. And it has like these book references hidden throughout it. Interesting. But that was one that I went into kind of. of blind and I remember like sitting there and being like this is a lot better than I expected like if it was a six that would have been okay with me and it was like closer to a night okay I kind of love that and I feel like I think sometimes it can be good to not have expectations and like

go in not knowing anything and you're like we'll see you know and then I had the moral quandary because Jared Lutto also not a great man as far as we're finding out. I'm like, yeah. Damn it. I know. I know. We were like 20 minutes in and I was like, I literally like turned to Tyler.

I was like, I think he had his candle. And I googled it. And it was like July of this year. And I was like, yeah, I was right. Okay, cool.

And I think he's somebody that there's also been other like rumblings about like, because they're all like him playing the joker. He did some like really weird stuff. where he was like what the Joker would do like being method but you're sort of like yeah but you're like a human man on a set with other people who are just here doing their job. I know. You'd not be a jerk. Yeah.

I know. And it is crazy how he looks like white baby girl Jesus. I couldn't escape it. I typed it out. I'm like I'm loving this storyline but also there's like what she's like his hair is long. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. Oh, my gosh. White baby, oh, Jesus. It's just hard to, it's hard to enjoy media sometimes lately. I know. Excuse me. It's okay. It are. I know. Never, like, okay. I'm going to just get into it. Are you listening to the new Lily Allen album? Oh, yes. Okay. So I have not listened

long form, but I have definitely had snippets and I have read up on it. Yeah. So I mean, that's the... Your thoughts. So my thoughts is you got to listen to the whole album all the way through because it is like a movie. Like she like through it and like

granted it's her perception of what happened and I think she has come out and said it's not all like there's truth and fiction mixed in there but she paints a pretty clear portrait of it. But that is also the case of somebody who like a lot of my, I have one like group chat lighting up where they're like so don't trust any man, huh?

Like we like David Harbour from Tranger Things is now like a piece of shit. Got it. Got it, got it, got it, got it. I know. That's what I was thinking because I was like, I thought the general perception of him was very positive. It was. And now not so much. And then they're like come out the thing about Millie Bobby Brown allegedly like filed a suit against him for like bullying on set. Like and it's like this man is not having a good week. I know, I saw that headline last night, I think, too. And I was like, oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've read some of the very specific lines that she did write, which it's so fascinating

when anyone, I mean, obviously we, the society sees it even differently with women who do it. But anytime anyone is like, this is my art, some of it's true and some of it's not. Yeah. It's also such messy territory because it's making us think of us. certain way about a certain thing and we have no way of knowing 100% 100% part is real it's so it's so like pop culture fascinating it really is you're you're very right like I mean this man's reputation is now in the mud and like and Taylor does it a lot and she did it with tortured poets where it was

like it's truth and fiction and it's like it is like I don't even know if there's a place to stand in judgment of anyone doing it or consuming it, but we don't know. It means we don't know. It means we don't know, despite the fact that like, I feel like a lot of the discourse I'm seeing online about it is like Taylor Swift is sort of like, you know, she's writing these very like references that people are Easter egging onto and oh, we talk about a typewriter and we know so-and-so uses a typewriter, so it's probably him, blah, blah, blah, blah. Lily Allen is like, on January 3rd he that's women in our own you know and you're just like like and there was a bag with sex toys it was tied off like it's exactly how I was done dirty and in which manners and like

everybody is just like yes this is like x-rated totally it's not bg 13 it is not and it's like oh my god incredible and I would say sorry to Taylor Swift just okay tortured poets depart had a few songs I like on it. And to be fair, I'm not a full Taylor Swift stand, so I haven't listened to the album with the same thing. Well, it has like 30 songs. So. Right. The general consensus, I feel like critically and even from fans is like it's a little over long. It's a little bloated. Lily Allen gets in. She gets out and every single song on that album is a banger. Every single song. Okay. I've got to listen all the way through. It's so good. This is a this is a put the noise canceling ones and like check in. Yeah, totally. And it's, uh, upsetting in the best way that like the best earworm out of it is the song that you've probably seen on the social media which is pussy palace which is like no wish a pussy palest I've had song in my head nonstop for like a week now and like I find myself humming it in meetings

at a meeting and then be like you can't sing it you can't say that so specific that you just said that because I was just talking to gear before this and I was like are you a doji fan too I was like because like all of her concert footage on TikTok is just iconic right now. And then I told him, I was like, I just keep saying parts of Nissan Ultima out loud. And I'm like, why am I just saying like four lines of this song? Totally. You're just wondering. People are like, wow, she's really a car fan.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, she's amazing too. But yeah, I need to listen to this whole. I need to listen to more of Dochi, but like, yeah. Lillian, it's a, it's like a play. Yeah. Yeah.

Are there visuals? Is it like YouTube visuals like a play or just like the lyricism is like a play? It's like the lyricism of it, really. Like you start. It's like lemonade. No, no, I think she's doing a visualizer album for it, but she didn't do it like lemonade, like didn't do that sort of thing. I mean, she really is just sort of like, we set the scene. She's like, oh.

we're at this like high point in our marriage and I get called for a play and then he starts to have a weird reaction to it. And then it immediately like the thing that she does in a couple of different songs is like at the end of the first song, there's like only half of a face time that you're hearing. And it's her half of the face time and you know that something devastating has happened in their relationship but you don't know what it is. And then find out what it is. And then she gets to a song where she's like playing, she's reading out one of his mistress's texts back to her. and like it is just she really is she putting it out there yeah there's there's there's there's exhibit a exhibit B like it's a full workup it's so impressive when people yeah i mean it's something i it always reminds me that like i i love uh revengy anything like this like i love

experiencing it totally i think we all but but me i would never let someone know they mattered that much to me. Oh, for sure. For sure. Mine would be like, I'm done and no one's ever going to even know. But I love experiencing it through women who are just like, here. I'm like, oh, good for you. It's so interesting because it's like to your point a little bit too, like I saw this one

TikTok comment that really made me laugh where it was like Lily Allen's new album is getting me through my divorce and I've never even been married. But like, which I think is like a common experience. I feel like it's like resonating for people where it's like even if you can't identify with this particular experience, there's some way in which the sort of revenge of it all, we're all just like. Yes. Yeah, the vibes. Like revenge upon my many enemies. Yes.

Again, I'm conflicted on Taylor Shlifcliffe lately. But I remember seeing a TikTok comment when I was like learning all of the lore that was like any of her. breakup albums can be about your parents if they were bad enough and truly some of the songs that connect with me the most where I'm like I felt that way but just not about a breakup totally totally yeah which I think it's the power of like good songwriting is you can connect to it even if you haven't had that personal experience yeah okay but like speaking of like revenge power moves did you also see way too online these days uh I am too Travis Kelsey's X says Oh, Kayla Nicole.

Yeah. Her Halloween costume. Mm-hmm. Did he ain't man? He wasn't man enough for me. Right. And the outfit looks like the showgirl outfit too somehow. Yeah.

And she looks incredible. Oh, she looked incredible. So then are you seeing the TikToks of everyone like Travis in the bathroom and it's just the song playing over and over and over and over? No, that's really funny. I saw that a couple of days ago. I was like, it's funny. It's like.

Like, why did she, why did she need to mention her? Yeah. I didn't know that I didn't realize that she did because I haven't spent time with this album. Yeah. And then I learned through the clap back. And I was like, oh. Yeah. She has like at least one throwaway line in there where she's like, basically, you were in it for real and she was just on her phone, like, for the length and stuff.

And I did find it kind of immaculate that Kaylon Nicole clapped back in like the exact way that Taylor Swift would have with these sort of like Easter eggs. let me recreate this iconic thing. I'm going to give a response without giving a response. You know, like Halloween, like chef's kiss. Like, I know, well done. Just all of the, yes, because in my, since we're talking about it, my stance with it, I had a couple of people ask, is like, write about your ex is all you want. Sure. Right. Don't write about someone else's experience that you didn't have the experience. Like, I would, I agree. And I think there's like, especially. when you are this big because with great power does come great responsibility. I totally agree. And like I'm not trying to get the Swifties mad at me. And I think that there's

much, much wonderful talent to Taylor Swift. But she also seems to really like to be in an underdog position. And like there is nowhere for her to punch up at this point except for like maybe the president. You know what I mean? So like, I know. I was so hoping canceled was going to be about his tweet. I was like, Can we at least have this song be a... No, it was not. Totally. And so it's like she, when she takes swipes at people, even like Kim and Kanye of it all still again, I'm sort of like, but you're more famous. Like you are more famous.

Yeah. I know. That's the hard part. It might be time to let it go, you know? I know. That was what this album started to make me feel. I do love father figure. I can't help it.

I mean, we were just talking about plenty of men's films that we also like the men. So. Sure. Father figure, just the, it's because it's a story telling one. That's the other part. And it flips at the end. That's like, that's what I love when she does that. But I had not really listened to any of the others. And then I was like, why? And I can't get on board with canceled. I don't, I don't like. I don't know that I've listened to it enough. I, but I, it wasn't my favorite. And you know what I don't. It's like all about good thing. I like my friends canceled. which like okay is that about like lively or is that like I also think Taylor Swift does not actually understand what the word canceled means I think she might be the bad and it's like that's not what canceled is canceled is more than like a little bad press it is I know and mine was like it was like the people I was thinking about I'm like I don't if it's about Blake and if it I do not like

Brittany Mahomes or her brother. And it, I, they, I, I, I, I listened to it once. I couldn't go back to it. Yeah. I don't, I don't want that to be true. I know. I know. I know.

Uh, I also don't need. I don't need to hear her saying about. Oh, yeah. We did, we did cover that too, actually. We've kind of been from the beginning. Like, come on. I just, like, she's not. She's not Sabrina Carpenter.

Who's like so nimble and funny around sexual lyrics. It's giving, this might have been even what we said, but it's like giving an answer like, I fuck. And we're like, we don't want that from you. You know, like, I'm happy for you, girl. Go get railed. But like, I actually don't need to hear about it from you. Thank you. I know.

I know. He's also not. I think the other thing that happens is if he's not attractive to you. Yeah. It's even worse. You don't want to know that it's about him. And or my feeling is, okay, I don't know enough about the Travis Kelsey, Taylor Swift lore. I kind of have stayed out of it.

What I like about him is that he seems genuinely not threatened by her success. I think that is beautiful. That's what I agree with. And that's great. What the fuck do they talk about? So I assumed he was railing her a lot because I'm like, I don't think you all are just having conversations. Like, I assume that this was like a sex forward. Like, you know.

know like why is it even surprised right like yeah man that's that's what i thought was happening like it almost you would almost now that you're even saying it well and i agree with all it's not like i hadn't had that thought but i'm like is this that traditional like i have gotten burned so many times that i'm just swinging right to the like everyone calls him orange cat behavior or golden retriever like is it like oh he's really safe and midwestern and family comes from good family. Yeah, probably. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. It is a strange. I've been confused by it the whole time. I think we all have, you know, like, yeah, yeah. I don't get it. But I said, if it's so funny, I literally said that same thing about her announcing it on his

podcast where like, I was like, at first I was like, and I was like, but then I did like put it on a couple days like after it happened or whatever um while i was working and um i kind of had to like unroll my eyes because the way that they both hyped her up i was like very aware of the fact that like 10 years ago no men no football bros would have hyped uh brittany spears up that way even if it's like slightly performative i mean that's what you're doing on a podcast uh that still wasn't going to happen culturally so at least i i had that that same experience that you led with where I was sitting there. And I was like, he is not threatened by it. He actually thinks it's a good thing. And they actually are like, look at you.

Like, this is awesome. And I was like, that's at least nice, I guess. But I, I agree. I think that is a great quality. We love to see it in him. We love to see it modeled for men, like, especially from, like, such a traditionally masculine corner of like, you know, the populace. And also I'm like, I don't think they're, like, having great debates about, like, literature and philosophy. And like, I think so. It's, yeah, I don't think so, which. Which is fine. That may not be a good. I'm also not trying to be anti, uh, or elect intellectual elitists or anything. No. Just an observation. Just an observation. Just an observation that we didn't really need to write the song about like him railing you. We all kind of assumed that was what

was up. Yeah. We didn't need direct references. You know, I'm, I'm good. You can. You can't. keep your wood over there i i did i have not re listened to it a single same i'm i'm fine well um horror noir are safer than the fate of ophelia right now is what we're saying yeah