Bookwild - Olesya Lyuzna's Glitter in the Dark: 1920s Harlem, Prohibition, Showgirls and Noir

Episode Date: April 1, 2025

This week I got to talk with Olesya Lyuzna about her historical noir Glitter in the Dark! We dive into Olesya's lifelong obsession with the 1920s, some wild facts she learned while researching, and how humans have always been chasing really similar feelings, even 100 years ago.Glitter in the Dark SynopsisThe search for a kidnapped singer in Prohibition-era New York leads an intrepid reporter from Harlem speakeasies to the dazzling world of the theater, all while grappling with her warring passions.Ambitious advice columnist Ginny Dugan knows she’s capable of more than solving other people’s beauty problems, but her boss at Photoplay magazine thinks she's only fit for fluff pieces. When she witnesses the kidnapping of a famous singer at Harlem’s hottest speakeasy, nobody takes her seriously, but Ginny knows what she saw―and what she saw haunts her.Guilt-ridden over her failure to stop the kidnappers and hard-pressed for cash to finally move out of her uptight showgirl sister’s apartment, Ginny resolves to chase down the truth that will clear her conscience and maybe win her a promotion in the process. When private detective Jack Crawford starts interfering with her case, Ginny ropes him into a reluctant partnership but soon finds herself drawn to the kind heart she glimpses beneath his brooding exterior. Equally as alluring is Gloria Gardner, the star dancer of the Ziegfeld Follies who treats life like one unending party. Yet as Ginny delves deeper into the criminal underworld, the sinister plot she uncovers seems to lead right back to the theater.Then a brutal murder strikes someone close to her, and Ginny realizes the stakes are higher than she ever imagined. This glamorous world has a deadly edge, and Ginny must shatter her every illusion to catch the shadowy killer before they strike again. Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I got to talk with Alessia Liuzna about her debut thriller Glitter in the Dark, which is a super fun noir that takes place in 1920s Harlem. Ambitious advice columnist Jenny Duggan knows she's capable of more than solving other people's beauty problems, but her boss at PhotoPlay Magazine thinks she's only fit for fluff pieces. When she witnesses the kidnapping of a famous singer at Harlem's hottest speakeasy, nobody takes her seriously. but Ginny knows what she saw and what she saw haunts her. Guilt ridden over her failure to stop the kidnappers and hard-pressed for cash to finally move out of her uptight showgirls sister's apartment.

Jenny resolves to chase down the truth that will clear her conscious and maybe when her promotion in the process. When private detective Jack Crawford starts interfering with her case, Jenny ropes him into a reluctant partnership, but soon finds herself drawn to the kind heart she glimpses beneath his brooding exterior. Equally as alluring is Gloria Gardner, the star dancer of the Zygfeld Follies, who treats life like one unending party. Yet as Ginny dives deeper into the criminal underworld, the sinister plot she uncovers seems to lead right back to the theater. Then a brutal murder strikes someone close to her, and Ginny realizes the stakes are higher than she ever imagined. This glamorous world has a deadly edge, and Jenny must shatter her every illusion to catch the shadowy killer before they strike again. This is definitely some of my favorite historical fiction that I've ever read. I love noir. I loved

having noir in the 1920s. And I also really felt like a big takeaway I had was that we've kind of always been similar as humans even in the 1920s to now. And so that was really cool. And then it was awesome to talk with Alessia about how she has been hyperfixated on the 1920s. since she was a kid. So I am with Alessia Liuzna today, and we're going to talk about glitter in the dark. But I did want to get to know a little bit about you first before you dive into the book.

So when did you know you wanted to write? What was your moment of like, I think I'm a writer or your first book idea? How did that happen for you? Yeah. So it's definitely something that I have been interested in from a very young age, which I think is kind of a common,

thread amongst writers. So ever since I was little, first of all, first 13 years of my life, I was an only child, and then my brother was born, so it wasn't as lonely anymore. But first 13 years and lots of, you know, long afternoons, just kind of occupying myself. So became a big reader, a big library kid. And I think writing was sort of the other side of the coin for me, because, you know, the books, you could read them, you could kind of immerse yourself in a world or a story, but with writing you kind of craft your own. And I loved kind of exploring both sides. The first, well, I called it a novel at age,

but I think it was more like a picture book. But my first was maybe when I was six or seven. And it was about a girl detective, kind of Nancy Drew inspired investigating a stolen artifact at a museum, took it very seriously, asked my parents for, like, naming inspo. And for like the bad guy, my dad supplied his boss's name who is in like a toxic works.

That's amazing. At the time. With now, back, I'm like, okay, I love that. Yes. Yeah. He's like, I'm going to have a cathartic release through your writing. So that's what fiction is for anyway.

But, yeah, so, you know, wrote stories here and there as a kid. In my preteen or teen years, I got really into, like, text-based RPGs. There was one around the world of Harry Potter that I was deeply invested into along with my friend. Yeah. And I think it became sort of my first almost like writing course, because they took it very seriously. You had to like submit a character sheet and they'd like judge the prose and so on. So it's very intense, but very fun. And yeah, just to kind of explore different worlds.

So yeah, I guess, you know, lifelong dream. I didn't get serious into writing until the pandemic. Oh, yeah. Yeah, because in my sort of earlier years, I was very focused on, like, building a corporate career. I went into consulting. I studied econ and kind of forgot about the writing for a while. Then the pandemic hit. The world started falling apart.

Yeah. I turned 25, and that felt very old. Yes. Fame. You know, like a quarter-life crisis. So I thought, you know what? Yeah. I'm stuck at home.

There's no real career to be made anyway. way and this is the importance to kind of get into this. And so that's actually when I wrote Glitter in the Dark and the rest is history. Yeah. That is so cool. That was reminding me, like I remember when the pandemic was happening, someone, some podcast I listened to was talking about like how it was going to be cool to look back on the time and see the people who like never had time for creative endeavors or never had time to even like realize that they were artistic in some certain way that like it would be cool to look back on that and see those so I was kind of having like deja vu as you were saying that because I was like oh yeah like I remember hearing that and thinking like

oh that does make sense but I think you might be the second or third author who has said something like that now where it's like they had time to try it out yeah that's really interesting and I almost feel bad telling people that the pandemic was like the peak of my life right highlight like I had a great time, I think, especially as like it. Same overall. Yeah. Yeah, like as an introvert too and like not having to come to an office and all that stuff. We were made for this. Those parts of it. Yeah. And I think it's okay, especially at this point to talk about the fact that there were good and bad things about the pandemic. So I don't think it's, I don't think it's that crazy to talk about the good stuff. But so your writing process, how did you develop that? during the pandemic. Did it have anything in common with how you wrote as a kid? Yeah, that's a great question, actually.

I think definitely did a lot more research than I did as a kid, where my research was just my subconscious. And it kind of started out, so like the writing was definitely a big draw and a big passion for me, but it started with my just like deep obsession with the 1920s. I don't know if you can relate to just kind of developing like a rounder. it whole or like a niche and just going all in. Oh yeah. Yeah.

I can relate a little bit. So yeah, and after a while, like I spent like a couple months, you just have beenching old films, looking up, newspaper scans, tracking like random crime stories from like 1921 and like seeing what happened. And so it just kind of, you know, it made sense to turn that into a book, especially since I love writing. And then, you know, people would stop asking me questions like, what are you doing here exactly. So it's all research. Yeah. So that was kind of where it started. And I think that was

very helpful because just, you know, reading biographies, watching movies, there are so many things that you end up absorbing and so many ideas kind of come up naturally. In terms of like process, I'm definitely a bit of a plotter. So yeah, especially with mysteries, like I do kind of need to understand where we're going. But I also like I don't always know, final answer. So I'm kind of like a mix of the two where I find that my best work and like glitter for sure, it started more as a question and like a hypothetical situation. Yeah. And then kind of like the plot followed. Yeah. That's really cool. I would assume as well with like writing historical fiction, it helps to have some outlining because the thing that like would stress me out about

trying to write historical fiction is like there's there's no. There's no. way for you to even like go to immerse yourself in it like if someone if i wrote a book in l.A i could fly out to l.A and be like okay so now i get the vibe you can't do that unless you have a secret time travel machine that i don't want to out you if you do so um that's the part that would trust me out so like without outlining do you feel like you probably had to like and like do it even just to make sure that that part was correct. Yeah, definitely. I mean, especially I would say, there are certain details that, like, you know, move the pot further or not. And I had to, like, admit because, you know, certain things hadn't been invented and so on. That, it did stress me out

as, like, a bit of a perfectionist. Yeah. I think my one sort of saving grace, and I don't know if this was, like, a conscious choice or not, is that there are very few people who, like, lived through the 20s or present today to kind of fact-check me. So there's that. And yeah, and also, like, I thought I'd done a good job researching things, but even, like, through the final edits, my editor was still matching things here and then. For example, did you know that the expression missionary sex was first recorded in the 1940s? And so it was a little iffy to use in the 1920s novel. Did not know that. Yeah. Well, the more you know that's wild. I know. Editors just must have so much, so much random knowledge about like all kinds of things.

Yeah. So it's crazy. A bit of a safety net there, thankfully. But yeah. Yeah. Definitely a lot of research had to go into it. And that's why, I mean, it helped that I was so obsessed with the 20s to begin with. It made it easier. Do you think you know, because you don't always know with hyperfixations, but do you think you know what about the 1920s like peaks your interest so much? much. Hard to say. I think I can trace it back to my teens maybe. And maybe like the great Gatsby might have been sort of the first. Right. I still have somewhere on YouTube.

There's a video of me at like age 16 dressing up in like a flapper costume. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's always been there. That's cool.

I think sometimes like the things like especially when your brain and your personality are developing, like, it's like you read something at the right time. Like, maybe you're saying with the Great Gatsby and all of a sudden you're like, oh, this is so fascinating. And it's reminding me that like I was so into Greek mythology in middle school and I don't think I've ever gone back to it. But maybe I should. Yeah. Yeah. You never know when it kind of comes back to you. Yeah. Was there something that made you want to write a mystery, a thriller, it's very noir as well? Was there something that drew you to writing that story, kind of then within the blanket of historical fiction?

Yeah, I mean, I've always been into mysteries and crime. You know, my mom raised me on a lot of like Agatha Christie. Also, I watched a lot of CSI, New York when it was made up early for me, but definitely left its imprint. So I've always just been fascinated by, you know, the darker side of human nature, both, I think, in a way to, like, Like, you know, the more you know, the more you can kind of protect yourself against these things. Yes.

And then also just, you know, curiosity, like what makes people take people who commit all kinds of crimes. So there's that. I think with noir, too, it just something about that genre has always fascinated me. I think it's perfect, actually, for like any kind of turbulent times, which probably applies to the 2020s as well as the 1920s for various reasons. And I think there's something comforting about it. When I tell this to my friends, they're like, oh, let's see it like that. You're being just a downer. But I find that happy endings don't always do it for me because when you're going through

something or when the world seems kind of bleak, noir is comforting because, you know, you have some kind of like cynical detective at the center of it all and things go horribly. Like they get solutioned. Their like dream girl betrays them. Everything is awful. But still at the end of it, they kind of. solve the case and they have their drink at the end of the day and it's all good. So I really like that. I find that comforting where it's like even if everything's going terribly, terribly wrong,

Christine, okay. Yeah. That's a good point. And it was interesting. I don't read tons of historical fiction, but it's always the mystery thriller noir ones that I'm like, all right, well, I know it'll keep my attention then. And so even as I was reading it, I was kind of having somewhat of an experience where like I think sometimes it's really easy to think like people from the past like weren't as dark as us or something like that's what I was realizing as I read it where like I loved some of the elements you had in it um without talking about spoilers but like some of the it's a mystery thriller like the listeners can assume some of what I'm saying but I thought it was so cool because I was like I don't think about like uh

like women from the 1920s still wanting versions of uppers and downers. Like that was the other interesting part. You kind of dive into all kinds of drug use. It's also prohibition era, which we can get into too. But it's funny because it's like even though some of the things we look back on and we're like, that was basically meth or something like that, you can't deny that our society still is like, here's the new best upper. Here's the new best downer.

like the fact that that's been going on for 100 years was even for me like oh yeah like just because they were in flapper dresses. It didn't mean like there weren't some really core human things that we've always had. Yeah. No, and I love that. I feel like it's really easy to kind of create a barrier between, you know, the present and the past and you look at all the photos and you almost, you know, that's why like colorized footage is so fascinating because it kind of brings the past into the present. And I think, you know, like reading maybe some books from the time or articles or just the ones that don't have that heavier moralistic censorship really opens your eyes to, you know, how people lived. And again, like the drug use and, you know, sexual practices and stuff,

things were different. Right. In some ways, they were very similar. Yeah. That was kind of what I was noticing this time around. And it was cool because then it is like I read so many contemporary or books that take place in the present. That's the word I couldn't find. I could find contemporary, but not present. It's cool because it kind of refreshes the genre. I think that might have been what I said in my review too, is like it still felt like the things I like about noir, but the time is literally like a whole other setting. So I liked that part too. There's more to think about. Okay. So you said you did some research. You read like some articles.

It specifically takes place in Harlem during the prohibition era. So was there any specific research you did to kind of understand what it was like there and then? Yeah. Yeah. No, it was really fascinating to learn, like all these things that I had kind of missed throughout high school. I always start in my research process with cultural history books, the two that I really

loved and recommend to anyone who's interested in the 20s. in terms of pop culture and also like psychology would be terrible honesty and modern temper because they kind of really show you, you know, how culture was evolving different influences. Harlem in particular was interesting to me because it felt like almost a city within a city. So it contains so many contradictions because on the one hand, it was the sort of dreamland and like cultural mecca for black people moving out from the south. there were more opportunities, you know, the first self-made female millionaire, Madam C.J. Walker with her beauty empire. That started in Harlem, too. I had authors of the Harlem Renaissance.

I read a few books I really enjoyed. Jesse Fawcett, Nella Larson, Paul McKay, Lansing Hughes, his poetry. So it was really, really fascinating to kind of read that perspective. But at the same time, while, you know, the arts were booming and business was great and, you know, moving to Harlem was such a dream. There was also the flip side where so many, you know, white people and like, white gangsters mostly were buying up the most popular clubs along Lennox. Yeah. Especially, like the Cotton Club is a great example. Um, because like, you know, you would move to Harlem and you'd expect liberation and equality and, you know, opportunities, but then at the Cotton Club, the audience was still all white and performer was impacted to the paper bag test. So really, really kind of,

I feel like Harlem was a great cross-section of society. And I think I also was just, you know, outraged and just really it piqued my attention that the way that, you know, black culture was having a huge moment, jazz, dance, and so on. But then, again, like the people who, the white people who visited Harlem to kind of go there and dance and have fun, they would go back to their sort of segregated parts of the city. And would kind of think about it. So it was really interesting to kind of read about it, also to read about the differences in some class differences within Harlem. Like there's Sugar Hill neighborhood where the Hurston's residence is was very like scale and Fuji. And I actually based their house on a photo I found. There was a bit of creative license.

I really liked that one of the houses was painted this like bright electric blue. I think that probably came later. But I wanted to keep it in such a fun detail. Totally. Yeah, it is such a, I, like New York has so many feelings of cities within cities. Like you're saying at the beginning, it is so fascinating the way that they developed. And then, like you're saying, it was almost like, it's not even totally like gingerification because they weren't even moving in there. But like in a business sense, that's what it was. Like they're like, oh, we'll come be here for a little while and then we'll leave and you guys can stay here. So yeah. Yeah. It's a super. fascinating about that area. The other part I wondered about is like, did you research anything about like women's lives specifically in the 20s? Because like that's the other thing that's hard for me to wrap my head around like what that experience would be like. Yeah. No, definitely. Here I like also started with the cultural history books because I wanted to understand the numbers and kind of

the stats. And what was interesting? to me is that when we think about the 20s, you know, we have this image of this liberated woman, she bulbs her hair, goes out dancing, drinking, smoking. But that was definitely not the norm across America. Yeah. Largely rural. Most women, you know, women were entering the workforce more than in previous decades. Yeah. They're getting the vote and so on. But most women still, like, once they were married, they would stop working. And then still, like, there were many, like, bars or other establishments where unschaparowned women were really allowed inside. So that was still a big thing.

But I would say like there's a contrast between maybe like the average woman's experience versus certain like millions within cities. And at the same time it was a time of like great change. One thing that especially fascinated me was in the 20s because of prohibition. If you were an adult woman going out to party, you would be like brushing shoulders with criminals. And if you wanted to get a drink, you would go to a supplier. And so I think that created so many interesting opportunities to explore, like, as a crime writer.

Yeah. Because, you know, the previous decade, your hair's long, your skirts long, you're in the home, and then in the 20s, you can hypothetically go out and go dancing and so on. So that was interesting to me. I also, like, really love certain individual stories that just kind of stayed with me. I love reading, I'm blanking on the author, but it's called Madam. It's about the life of Polly Adler. She was the most successful Madam in the 1920s, and her brothel was right across from Columbia

University, which helped with business apparently. Wow. And yeah, she was extremely successful, but what was interesting was that while her main business was a brothel, it was also like a center of like cultural discussion and you know you'd have artists. and writers coming together. So that was an interesting thing. And another one I really liked was Celia Cooney,

also known as the bobbed-haired bandit. I am obsessed with this woman. This is amazing. Very like 1920s. One thing that I really noticed kind of like links the 1920s to our era is this fascination with like criminals. Yeah, you're right. this like sexualization of them because with her she um she and her husband robbed i think like 10

grocery stores or convenience stores at gunpoint and there were two of them but newspapers focused on her like they kind of they're like yeah this is the bobbed hair bandit wow yeah and there were like it got to kind of a very unsurious point where i remember reading this like newspaper spread that had an illustration where it's like, get the look, the Bob-Hare Bandit, and they have like a picture. It's like you have like a striped outfit and like glittery. Amazing. Crazy. So it's like, I mean, it's like Luigi.

Like, so similar to that. And that was like a big thing for the 20s too, especially like I think back then the focus on women. Like if you are a woman and a criminal, ideally like a murderer, like that really kind of gets you clout. but as a robber, it's already good enough. You're going to get so much space and papers and you're going to get like a cool nickname, like, I don't know, the jazz baby killer or whatever. Yeah.

We're going to be famous. But then the funny thing is, like, I read some kind of like interviews with her and, like, her motivation for the crimes was that she wanted to buy furniture for their home. And she really saw her as just like, you know, herself as a dutiful wife who wanted to furnish their place. I love that. I mean, well, and there's a whole dynamic there, like, in my mind, at play, that's, like, the pressure to be the perfect wife.

Like, what if she really did just feel like she needed to do it? Now I'm going to write historical fiction. He inspired me. Yeah. That's awesome, though. We do. We do get so... It's true crime is what it is. Like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, even for probably, you're, probably. centuries. We've been obsessed with true crime, even if it wasn't what we were calling it, kind of.

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And if you're looking for a free way to support the show, if you can like and review it on whichever platform you listen to, that helps so much. Were there any secret clubs that, like, inspired the ace in this book? Yeah. So, first of all, was fascinated to learn that in the 20s, in New York alone, there were like about 30,000 speakeasies. Wow. Crazy number.

I was reading somewhere, like, for reference today, there's like maybe 250 Starbucks locations in New York City. So just like, think about the magnitude. Yeah, and the inspiration for Ace came. So, you know, an Ace, you need a playing card to get in. And that was very loosely based on an actual tradition from the 20s where they would have these like special speakeasy cards. with like the logo and the name and they'd be handed out to trusted people and then you'd get in

with that. There were also quite a few that kind of interested me. The 21 Club was around for quite a while and they were raided very often, but they had a special system of like shoots and levers where when there was a raid, the alcohol would just kind of slide down and into like the sewers. So that was pretty cool. That is fascinating. Like all the, of course they had to figure out whatever they could to keep it going.

That is cool. Yeah, totally. Also, there's like a very, there's almost like a backdrop throughout the whole book of musicians as well during that time period. And it made me wonder if you have kind of like always been interested in musicians and music or if that kind of came along with this book. Yeah, it's definitely been like a long-term interest, but I think this book like really sparked it. I wanted the prose almost to reflect the rhythm of jazz music. Like I kind of wanted that to be to really come across for the reader because so much of it is set in speakies and, you know, Jimmy's all this partying. And also, you know, sent to all this crime is a missing torch singer.

So I want to feel like a party. Yeah, it was really an interesting piece of the research, too. So when I went into it, I thought that 1920s songs were a bit, I don't know, a bit silly, some of them, a bit, you know, saccharids like, oh, you know, love songs and so on. And for the more popular ones, yes. But I also came across a few gems. One of my favorites is Lucille Bogan. She started out in the 20s. she really kind of rose to prominence in the 30s.

And you can find a few of her recordings on YouTube, which is honestly a treasure. And her lyrics are filthy. She's like, like I would compare, I would say like the 1920s Cardi B maybe. Wow. She sings about sex. There's this one line where she's like,

I've got something between my legs that would make a dead man come. Oh my gosh. In 1920s going. So highly recommend. Wow. This is not my great grandmother's music, but yeah, it's really surprising, you know? Yeah.

You are just, I'm learning all kinds of things today. That is awesome. I'm definitely going to be listening after this. So then the plot wise, we get into Ginny and Jack working together. and he's he's a PI, but they have like a bunch of tension. Their worldviews are different, but they also have some sexual tension going on. So how did you craft their relationship? Yeah.

So I personally am a huge fan of like will they, won't they dynamics. Yeah. I just, I love kind of, you know, teasing it out and getting very close to some kind of resolution, but then just kind of going along. what I found interesting about their dynamic is that they are so different when they meet. You know, Ginny's this reckless, chaotic party girl. Jack is a teetotaler and like very cynical. Like Ginny has ambitions and he's so hopeful and Jack is just like, oh, they're all, you know,

all the husbands are cheating, whatever. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, they clash because the way they meet is that Jack is investigating Ginny's friend and she's like naturally protective. Like, what the hell are you doing? But then, you know, they're forced to work together on the same case. And I think that sort of forces them to get to know each other and to recognize that they have more in common than they thought. And so I think the attention really comes from that, you know, these like perceived differences and like all arguments and whatever. But at the same time, they're like very, very similar at their core. Right. They definitely are. I didn't include this question, but it just came to mind. I read in your bio that, um, that you want to write, like, queer characters in the 1920s as well.

And so without getting into spoilers, there are, there are bisexual women that they exist in this book. I just try not to give anything away. And that's something that we, I feel like we also think didn't exist as much because people think it happens more now where really it just wasn't as safe to, or is acceptable back then too. So what kind of made you passionate about including those characters as well in this time period? Yeah.

So I love this question. I mean, it definitely started with my research because the more I was reading, especially about, you know, the entertainment scene and, you know, the nightclubs. And there's another wonderful book actually right here. It's called Sappho Goes to Hollywood or The Girls. and it talks about Greta Garbo and Marleney Dietrich's like fling and kind of

how that led to their fallout. So the more I was reading about the entertainment industry and just like the 1920s, the more I realized how much more of a almost like a queer community there was at the time. And I think it's kind of interesting because 100%

it was more dangerous to be a queer woman or man at the time and like this criminal officer. and so on. But in certain circles, it was almost okay and almost, I would say, fashionable. So there's this kind of dichotomy between, like, especially it was a bit easier for women because I think that's a common sort of thread where, you know, gay men get prosecuted and then it's like, oh, women can't be queer, you know, it's just whatever. So blessing and a curse, I guess. But yeah, I thought that was very interesting that, you know, it was acceptable. And, you know, if you were among showgirls or

actors and Hollywood, very common. But then, you know, social opinions and then the law kind of set a different thing. Yeah. It was very interesting to explore that and imagine how a character would feel, you know, exploring their desires and confronting, you know, society's views. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I can't remember when it happens then, too, because that's where we have, like, the term lavender marriages. But I can't remember if that was happening the term. We would need your editor to tell us. She would know.

Or he. So yeah, I thought it was cool including that as well because, like, it did exist, even if we don't hear about it as much. The other, another really important relationship is Jenny and Dottie and their sisters. And there's all kinds of tension going on. and circumstances that I'll be very vague about. But also, there's also one of the woman who goes missing. Her relationship with her sister is a really important part of it too.

So what kind of drew you to writing those complicated sister relationships? Yeah. So many people ask me if I have a sister, and this is my way of releasing some unresolved tension, but no, I don't. I guess. Yeah. I kind of have two answers to this. The first is I was really, so if you look through the book, there are many, many mirrors

and mirrors kind of play a role. And so there's like a reason why Ginny's relationship with her sister is kind of similar to Josephine and Ruby's relationship because it makes it harder for Ginny to stay objective about the case when she sees kind of yourself in Ruby. So there's that. And I wanted to kind of explore, you know, the idea of you have a sister. who was either your age or maybe a little older, you look very similar. You're raised in similar circumstances.

But for some reason, your sister is famous and successful and has all these things that you maybe wish you had. And what does that feel like? So it's almost like it's a relationship with your sister, but also kind of your relationship with yourself and your own identity. And then the second sort of, you know, funny or I guess answer is that all of my friends who have sisters, the way they talk about them is like, oh my god like she tried to kill me twice as children and like she'd always steal my clothes but then

she's my right or die like i love her so much yeah so i just i love that kind of thing where it's like you can hate your sister but you also just like yeah yeah it did and then from a plot perspective like you're saying it really did keep both sisters like very uh persistent on figuring out what happened and like they're so motivated because it's their sisters so that hard honest sense too. We talked a little bit about the drug use in the prohibition era, but I don't think it's a spoiler to say that you're using like pep powder is something that comes through in the circles that that Jenny is in. I almost said Gemma because I'm watching so much severance stuff. Jenny. So was there any research you did about that specifically? You kind of said like you did a lot in

general, but what was like researching the drug scene like? This is really interesting to kind of research because when we think about the prohibition, you know, alcohol is the number one drug of choice associated with it, which is still the case and, you know, people were mostly drinking. But the 20s are kind of an interesting time where there is already some legislation. Like I think in 1914 there was an act to ban the legal sale of cocaine, but before 1914 you could get it legal. within like your meds. Yeah. And then the same with like opiates.

Like there was kind of an opiate crisis in the late 19th century leading into the Euro 20th where it was like prescribed for menstrual cramps. And so like an average like addict was a middle like a middle class white woman, I think. And so very interesting to learn about that. What surprised me too and we did talk about it. But the fact that weed was was. was not criminalized yet. That kind of thing was in the 30s.

And so it was very popular among especially like musician circles. There were these like spots called tea pads where you could get some weed for 25 cents. What a time. Take me back. It was just kind of funny to kind of write about Ginny or other characters just you know,

rolling a reefer cigarette and just going with it. But one area that is sort of like drug-adjacent. and I found really interesting about this time was patent medications. So in the early 20th century and like into the 20s, you could often, like if you look through old ads, you'd see ads for different tonics and tinketures and they look a little sauce to us because sometimes it's like they do include, you know, either unclear ingredients or like something kind of semi-toxic. And like we know now, but back in the day it was like the moment to just order something

from a catalog. and one that I found that was terrifying and fascinating, something called Jamaica Ginger. So it was known as Jake. And it was this like ginger tonic with a very high like ethanol percentage. I think like 70 to 80% ethanol. Whoa. And it was harmless in like the late 19th century.

It was prescribed. I think menstrual cramps was also on the list of things it was prescribed. I mean, they do suck. So I understand. I don't know how it would help. It was literally just like ginger and alcohol. But yeah, once prohibition hit, people were looking for, you know, other sources of alcohol. And so this was sold over the counter.

After a while, they made it, you know, prescription only, but it was still, you know, of interest to people. And so the manufacturer had the bright idea of making it taste better because that was sort of a deterrent. The ginger was like very bitter and you had to like mix it in, whatever. So, yeah, that was a bit of a bit of a bit of. of a slippery slope. He added something called like a phosphate plasticizer or something, which was later determined to be a neurotoxin. Oh my God. And it would like paralyze people, especially like their nerves and their spine to the point where their muscles and their feet would atrophy. And they came up with like a funny term for it called Jake Walk or Jake Dance because people had to go like toe like heel

heel first or something. It was like clicking or whatever, which is very morbid to me because people are getting parallel. That is. Look at Johnny doing the Jake walk. Oh my God. Yeah, it ended kind of, it was kind of a sad ending. They only, you know, connected the two in 1930 and most of the people, like 30 to 50,000 people were affected. But they mostly came from, you know, poor or like less politically connected background, so they didn't really get anything out of it. And then the two co-owners were fined, like, I think, $1,000 each. But, yeah, that was just crazy to me because, again, this is something you could just buy over the counter.

And nobody really knew about the consequences. So I feel like the drugs, like the recreational drugs were interesting to learn about, but even more stuff, like all the little roundabout ways people were finding and the consequences. Yeah. And, well, so much of what you were talking about. about is like reminding me again how similar we just still are because we're all humans. But like when you were saying that like the opiates were prescribed to so many like middle class white women because of period cramps will make you want an opiate.

I'm not going to lie. But it was reminding me because I, the first time I ever heard about quailudes was in Wolf on Wall Street, which may not be that unique of an experience. But that was like 70s, 80s. a little bit. And then I'm even thinking of like Madman covers some of that same thing where it was like whoever Dawn at January Jones plays, I can't remember the names of the characters anymore. But it's like, it's that same thing. It's like, oh, my wife is moody at home. Like probably because she has nothing she can do all day or whatever. And it's just like basically like the men at that time period are like

calling these other men shrinks and being like, can you just listen to my wife and give her this? So she like chills out. So it's like, it sounds like we've kind of, we've just, we've been doing it forever. This whole, like, can you just give, can you just sedate her? Yeah. Yeah, there's just no way around it. So there are, all of the relationships are very complicated in this book. And I was impressed by how many, it's not an ensemble cast necessarily, but it kind of is.

Like, you really are sticking with a lot of the. characters throughout it all. But kind of each of them in one way or another where all of them are dealing with like ambition and jealousy and like very complicated relationships, especially in the context of showbiz, which is another thing very similar to present day. But what kind of drew you to writing about those topics or themes? No, it definitely came out of the research because the more I read about the entertainment culture back in the day and the relationships between people kind of onstage and backstage, the more fascinated I agree with it. I think especially when it came to, well, I guess first of all, like the old Hollywood

celebrities, you know, Hollywood was still very new. I think the sign still said in Hollywood land. Right. So very early days. But reading through old like photoplay magazines, it was interesting to see how kind of fake the stories were. because they were all, you know, planted by their agents and made to sound, you know, very, very cute and very, you know, moral and so on. Whereas, you know, reading some behind the scenes memoirs, you'd see there was a different story.

And I really wanted to explore the tension between the personal and professional where you have to play this very artificial role. That was, you know, true for people who had a bit more fame. And then on the flip side, I watched a lot of footage of showgirls and, like, chorus lines. And it was kind of fascinating and also haunting to see because the precision is there and they all look so similar that when they're, you know, kicking their feet or whatever, they're all just kind of identical. And so it's fascinating, but I also tried to imagine what it would be like as one of those forest girls. And, you know, once you go behind the curtain, they're all individuals with their own hopes and dreams. And also, I think dreams of breaking out of the course. forest line because who wants to be just like 20, you know, glorified girls.

So, yeah, that was really interesting to explore. And I think just, you know, peeling back the curtain and seeing what they were talking about and what they truly. That reminds me of how we, not all, how many, how Instagram face has become a thing. We're like, everyone does like the same makeup approach. Everyone's like, oh, I have no upper lip. So I've been the girl before who's been like maybe one day like if I had the money I would like want to get injections in my upper lip which and I'm not coming down on it either way. But there is kind of like a common tendency to be like, okay, for this time period, this is what we're all supposed to look like.

Kind of like those videos you see that show the way the trends change like every 10 years. And it's like real thin, curvy, real thick. Like, we can't even make up our minds. But the whole, now I'm going to think of all the Instagram face girlies is like Corpus girlies just standing next to each other. Oh, my God. Yeah. No, that's so real.

And, like, also a funny thing when I was researching the beauty advice column and just, like, reading a bunch of old ones for photoplay, some of the advice is, like, very mild, which does a lot of, like, color theory and stuff, whatever. Some of it is very brutal. Like, there was one that I, in question. incorporated in the book because I just couldn't stop thinking about it because someone writes to her about, you know, not loving her nose or something. And the advice columnist says, oh, you know, a good plastic surgeon can help you. Oh my gosh. In 1920s, which is like, you know, plastic

surgery was kind of evolving because, you know, all the men coming back from the war. And so they had to go up with that. But it was nowhere near where it is today. And I personally would not want to go under the knife in the 1920s. But that was like, no. it in a magazine. Like go fix yourself, girl. Oh my gosh. No, it's not. It's not. I don't. And I'm even like, obviously I'm mentioning that I've thought about, it's so silly when you actually have to say it out loud having a prettier top lip. But like that would, you don't have to go into surgery. That's like what I don't

want to do a surgery if I don't have to. That's just even now, even in the 2020s, I don't feel If I don't have to, but they're just like, just go fix your nose. Like, just go deal with it. They needed to learn about contour. So I saw in your bio that this is going to be a series, most likely. And it had me wondering if it's going to follow Jenny or if you want to just kind of be in the time period, but like maybe with other characters. Yeah. So it will follow Ginny.

So far, I know for sure that there will be a sequel, TBD on the rest. I'm working on it right now, actually. Yeah, so it'll follow Ginny and Jack. The crimes will change, but the backdrop for now will be the same, and it'll start a couple months after the end of Glitter in the Dark. There will also be, without giving too much away. It will kind of continue some of the questions that might seem unanswered at the end of book one. So there'll be like a through line.

Nice. And yeah, little sneak peek book two is going to be about a self-help coach who gets a little toxic. And there's a bit of like a cult around him. Oh my gosh. Something I've wanted to write about for ages because I love cult media. And I think there's like an interesting thing to explore in the 1920s because there's a huge sort of like, pull yourself up by the bootstraps. You know, Dale Carnegie was just starting his thing about winning friends and influencing people. And I think it's like a very kind of creepy element to that that also resonates with my culture today where it's like

station and like hustle and like be a girl back and so on. So that is fascinating. Of course there were self-help cults in the 1920s. That's amazing. Now I'm excited to read it like I was saying again, it will feel very different, but it will like remind me of the present. Yeah. Do you read a lot? Do you read? Have you read anything recently that you loved? Yeah. I'm really focusing on cults and one that I'm halfway through is Kelsey Beaker's Godshot. I'm loving it so much.

Oh my gosh. I love her. I need to read that one still. I read Mad Woman and loved it so much. But my friend read Godshot. She said it was fantastic. It's amazing. And the cover's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited. I bought it. It's on my TBR. She needs to fit it in with all the arcs. It must be very long. Like, what do you know? Yeah.

It's like, it's always, it's just always growing. Where can people follow you to stay up to date with everything, especially since we've got a series going? Yeah. Instagram, the best place. Olesia is online. I post all my stuff there. Nice. Awesome.

Well, I will put that in the show notes. And otherwise, thanks for chatting with me about your book. Yeah, thank so much. This was so fun.