Bookwild - Oscars Reactions (Some Choices Were… Interesting) with MacKenzie Green

Episode Date: March 16, 2026

As promised, MacKenzie Green and I share our Oscars reactions, and thoughts on just about everything:  - Awards season and Oscar campaigning  - Timothée Chalamet discourse  - Misty Copeland’s performance  - Sinners on Broadway??  - Criticism of Sean Penn winning Best Supporting Actor  - The historical context of Black Oscar winners, and why Michael B. Jordan's win is so HUGE - Comparisons to past controversial Oscar wins (think Green Book vs Black Panther)  - Distinctions between authentic cultural storytelling (like Sinners) and films by those outside the culture for performative or superficial benefit  Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

We, we, did we prophecy this? We said that we would do an episode, kind of no matter what happened with Ward season. So I guess it's not really a prophecy. Yeah. But we're here to deliver on our World Season thoughts. Oh, our Oscars thoughts, really. Yeah. Here we go.

With McKinsey. You guys know. Oh, yeah. No. It's here. I'm with McKinsey. It's everybody's favorite loudmouth. I'm back.

Yes. Both of us can just yell for a little while. Yeah. No. That was. I will say, first off, I want to give mad respect to Conan O'Brien. I was very skeptical of his hosting. I am not a Conan girl.

Right. Me neither. I never really got his humor. I never really got his thing. Like, I didn't even fully appreciate the whole Conan J. Leno issue on late night because I truly was like, why would anybody want a Conan O'Brien tonight show? Like, I truly did not get it. And I, over these last few, like, months over this last year, have really enjoyed his podcast more.

Oh, yeah. Conan O'Brien needs a friend. And so I have grown to enjoy his brand of humor. I enjoy his level of, I didn't realize how self-aware he was. That's what I had always heard about his podcast. Yeah. And I, because I took his humor, because I consider him to be very, like, frat boy in the same kind of vein as a Jimmy Kimmel. Yeah.

where it's like it's a very narrow lane and I don't know why I was like Conan is not for me. Yeah. He is for like the finance bros. He's a little zany kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like and so I very much was like that.

And so in listening to the podcast, I have gotten to realize that he is very self-aware. Yeah. That this is like an intentionally crafted character that he is very smart. Because like for people who don't know, it's like we got Jimmy Kimmel from The Man show. Right. It's like this is a man who got famous off of a show where the opening was women bouncing on a trampoline in slow motion. And now it's like, thanks to the world of like, because most people don't realize it's like with late night, they have teams of writers and all this stuff. So like, I never look at Kimmel and go like, oh, my God, he's so smart.

I'm like, oh, Kimmel's crafted a great team and he's a very charming man who delivers their words well. And so like when it comes to Conan now, I'm like, oh, he's a very self-aware, clever man who probably could write some good. stuff and knows how to put a good team together. So I genuinely love the way he hosts. I love that kind of Billy Crystal style opening monologue where it's like, hey, I'm going to insert myself in the projects from this year. I think that's really cute and really clever and I just will never not enjoy it. I know. I do love those. And even the way he's able to run from, run onto the stage from it. It also was reminding me somewhat of the Grammy. It was the Grammys when Eminem did that. Like, all of the Slim Shadies appeared. I was sold on it when he was in K-pop Demon Hunters.

Because I thought he was just going to like run in as a human in this cartoon world. And for some reason, I don't know why. That like little attention to detail just made me so like, oh, okay, Coden. That's really sweet. That like you obviously worked with Sony animation too. insert yourself in this in a way that still respected like what y'all made totally so yeah it was just really cute and then having amy madigan win for that character what i mean it was i wanted it to be her or wound me like obviously it would have been great but i was okay with her winning too i so as someone who is a big old scaredy cat i'm not seen weapons i am fully aware of weapons i am aware of the themes and weapons. It is one of those movies that I need on streaming in the middle of the day. I have to

watch it. I have to be able to pause it. I also, I know people who've listened to me on this pod before know that I hate second screen viewing. But when it comes to horror movies, I need to be able to have my phone out to keep me distracted when it gets too spooky oaky. Yes. I don't like it. It's too much. I have to look down and be like, oh my God, I'm playing chess on my phone. And then I look up after the jump scare happens. I'm like, okay. But I, from like what I know of weapons, I love the commentary around like, you know, things happening to children.

And it's like at what point do we start to pay attention? Yeah, I just, I, you know, I, I really was on my Issa Ray. I was like, I'm rooting for everybody black, aka sinners. And then it was kind of like, then my second priority became, I just didn't want Timothy Shaloney to have a good night. and I feel so bad that I really was like actively rooting against him. Oh yeah. And then the next after that was I just-

The movie was not great either. So like, yeah. It's also like a fair thing to not want it to win stuff. Exactly. And it wasn't even so much that I'm like, oh my God, I hate what he said about like opera. I think he's, I very much am like, and somebody like put it the best way. Like he is very much having an ego death. he is fighting his ego death.

So tooth and nail. Because I do believe, and I fully support that monologue he gave at the actors awards. Yeah. SAG awards like a couple years ago. He was like, I want to be one of the greats. I want to be remembered. And I was like, I think that's so baller.

I think there's something so. Because it was like try hard. Yeah. You're working hard or something. Yeah. And I love that. Like I love the idea of somebody being like, one, I'm going to call my shot. But two, I'm going to make it very clear of like I'm about to put the work in to be

deserving of this kind of space in this acting Mount Rushmore. Love that. Live for it. I like it. Where he lost me. Exactly. As a person. And where he lost me was the entire press run of Marty Supreme made no sense to me.

I don't understand where we're rapping. I don't know why we're on Hot 97. I don't know why we have a black scent. I don't know why we're like I don't understand what any of this press run. press run. Yeah, that seemed to be so largely built on, like, it was almost like he was positioning this movie as though Marty Supreme was about like a young kid who tried to break into the hip hop industry. And I was like, but that's not what this is. This is about a dude trying to make a name for himself as a ping pong player. At the cost of everyone else in his life. Yes. And I'm with Nathan Lane.

If you think people don't care about the ballet and the opera, I have news for you, buddy. They definitely don't care about the sport of ping pong. So it's like I just and so truly and I don't think people understand and I think we talked about this a little bit like Oscar campaign season is like political campaigning. Right. We're talking billboards everywhere, commercials, ads taken out in the entertainment trades. We're, you know, geo tagged for your considerations, talkbacks, you know, town halls. Like it is a political campaign.

And so truly when I knew, and also I already know because of institutional knowledge, having new work in entertainment, pretty much any movie coming out between October and December and Christmas Day is vying for a look for award season. So the moment I knew, there was a movie called Marty Supreme coming out like a week before Christmas starring Timothy Shalame, directed by a safty brother. I was like, oh, this is, this is prestige bait. Yeah. This is awards bait.

Got it. It's got Gwyneth Paltrow. It's got everything you need to signal we're going for the award season. Yeah. So then I could not figure out if this was the start of the campaign. Yeah. Why? And what it had to do with anything.

And that was where he lost me. Yeah. It was not his comments about ballet and opera. It was truly, sir. That just confirmed some things we thought about it already. It was, it really was. It was like, sir. what is why are we white vacationing or black vacationing to promote and his mom and sister are

our ballerinas and yeah that was a separate thing where i'm like buddy you literally went to lauradia high school the school of fame is based off of like you lived in housing that was basically subsidized by your mother being an artist at the met like what are my friend pointing out she was like guys it's really simple some really hot ballerina dumped him okay truly they were pointing out he went to school with them someone hurt him yeah and it was true it's really one of those things and i very i talked about this on ticot it's like i had a boss at paramount who really was a believer in if you work in this world of storytelling you study all story and so my thing to timothy chalbay is like you are in the world of being a storyteller you should be studying every storyteller

You should be studying how ballerinas physically tell the story. You should be studying how opera singers use their voice. It's like, to me, it was just such a lazy take to not see the value in other storytellers' methods of telling stories. And so, like, that's why I loved, like, Scorsese and Spielberg and all these people doing. Because, again, it's four-year consideration season. So if people are wondering why there seemed like there was such an abundance of people talking about Timothy Shalameh and shitting on him, is because literally directors, actors, not even associated with projects, are out on the campaign trail on behalf of their other writers, directors, you know, actors. And so it's like these men are out here doing all these talk bags in FYP season and of course, in FYC season.

And that's why, of course, now you have Martin Scorsese's these thoughts on Timothy Shalb. And like all these people. It's just because the timing was perfect. for him to say something so dumb and all of these very smart people to be out in the world talking about film. Yeah. And I don't think that's what cost him his Oscar either to be fair. No.

Like it's hilarious and it was very fun watching Misty Copeland dance right in front of him. Yeah. But I don't think it had anything to do it. I think like that was a perfect example. That performance was one where people were like, oh my God, I love how sinners clapped back. And it's like, no, they didn't. I knew from the second the juke joint scene started. And I saw a woman in a red ballet outfit.

I was like, oh, that's Misty Cope, a nod to Missy Copeland and the Firebird. Yeah. And because it was so quick, I had a brief moment where I was like, oh, I wish they could have gotten Misty. And then I said, you know what, Missy is too famous and too important. Yeah. To come to work for a 30 second cameo in a movie where we wouldn't even fully know if it was her.

I was like, this probably would have changed the whole layout of the scene. They would have had to spend more time on her, all this stuff. Mm-hmm. So when it was announced that they were doing a. performance and they said and Misty Copeland is coming. I was like, oh, we're finally honoring. Yeah. Like the Supreme who is like, in my opinion, is a griot. It's like when you think about it, it's like it is Misty moving through Alvin Ailey Dan's to American Ballet Theater. It's doing Judith Jamison's Revelations and, you know, doing Swan Lake or it's her doing, you know,

dance theater of Harlem, which is where I saw her was Dance Theater of Harlem's version. of the Firebird versus American Ballet Theater, which I've also seen her do that version as well. So it was like, it was just, that part was cool, but it was just really funny to me. Again, it felt like the theme of the night was, is blackness centering whiteness? Because the fact that people were like,

oh my God, they totally did that to stick it to Timmy. And it was like, again, that is a presumed assumption that the focus was clapping back at this white dude. I agree. rather than fully honoring and bringing together the people who truly inspired that scene. Exactly. That was the point of the scene. Yeah.

All the different kinds of artwork and related to music, obviously, too. But just all the different kinds of artwork that has been created by Black people. And we had Asian and Native American in the movie. Yeah. In the movie. And they had it on stage too. I don't know if you noticed they had the woman who did like the, the draper like she had the drapey sleeve dance yeah i did i did get a good old teahee-he

out of jack o'connell coming and the fact that he still couldn't get on stage like that they walked up and he was like can we go and they were like no and i love that he wore his vampire tea that's what i was going to bring up too i love it so much also but this thing i did love is i And I don't even think this was intentional, but it just visually was brilliant. Yeah. Is that they came from stage right. And if people paid attention, stage right was the side of the stage that Kylie and Timmy were sitting on. So the vampires were standing in the aisle next to, I don't know if people even caught this.

They were literally standing and you can see Kylie Jenner in the background of the shot. And there's just something so again, it's like, I'm like whether or not it's intentional, but I'm like, it's Ryan Coogler. Like he saw the seat layouts when he was they were blocking the performance. I'm like there was just something so satisfying about like one of the children of the queen culture vultures being in the background of the shot of these vampires that people have been misinterpreting all season. Because I love the discourse where people are like, Remick wasn't racist. And I'm like, this is why I say I love this movie. Because I'm like, that's the problem is people think racism is just the slur. and I'm like what they miss

and I still teahee-he about it is that scene when Homegirl goes once we kill Ali y'all we can be happy and it's like oh my God and so I just I thought like the layout of that performance was spectacular and I just yeah

it is one of those Broadway that's the thing is like now people are like we want centers on Broadway and like my thing about centers on Broadway and I've seen some incredible castings where people are like, I want Leslie Odom Jr. and Joshua Henry to play

Smoke and Stack. Like, I'm like, there are some incredible people that could pull this off. I also, though, am like, I don't know. It's like, part of me, I wanted to get that color purple moment where it's like,

color purple, the movie, brilliant. Was the movie first or the... Movie was first. Cool. Beautiful. Brilliant. Steven Spielberg creates a world. this is the thing it's like it's it's beautifully done okay good when you watch it you're like holy cow this is gorgeous yeah and then fast forward years later and yes there was an adaptation done with fantasia brino all this stuff but when you fast forward to the version i got to witness with

cynthia all the sudden that very great movie became exponentially better so for me sinners is like that where i'm like i only wanted on stage, if the stage adaptation expands it into an even more kind of like, holy shit, this is incredible. Right. Because that's the color purple on stage. It's a good, it's a damn good generational film. Like, it's got some of the best quotes.

And you don't know. My mom and I still do the, you show is ugly and all that, like, everything you done done to me, come back to you. Everything is iconic. Yeah. And then you sit in a theater and they build a song around, all is my life I had to fight. And you're like, oh, my God, this song.

Yeah. Rises to the occasion of how phenomenal that line is. Or you're like, or the introduction of Shug Avery right comes. It matches how well done it's done in the movie. And so like that's my thing. It's like, I want centers on Broadway. Okay. But I only want it that if like we can truly build a song.

around like all of it yeah like Delta Slim's monologue or I only want it if we can build a song around that opening and we're flashing back between Sammy the you know the night before and the day like I want it yeah like truly people are like we're going to put everything behind this to make this like visually stunning like the music be incredible now I'm like if Warner Brothers is just going oh my God people love sinners let's like like let's adapt it. Please don't give it to me. I don't want it. Right. Yeah. But like, yeah, I didn't, I don't know enough about Broadway. So I was like, I will. Oh my God. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a musical theater nerd. You know that. I'm like right now I'm on a one person campaign to get Ryan Coogler to

adapt Hadesown. I've put it out into the internet and I'm just going to keep talking about it until it happens. Yes. I mean, I think you can make it happen. Listen, because at the end, because you'd also appreciate it. It's like for Ryan Coogler, it's a music. It's a, it's a, it's a I'm about to momentary tangent. It's a modern interpretation of the story of Persephone and Hades, but it's told through like jazz, like New Orleans style jazz and Zydego music. Wow. Yeah. That's cool. So like if anybody could figure out this kind of like swamp low country vibe and feel to a retelling of a Greek mythology story, I'm like, it's Ryan Coogler. And I will not stop until I get Ryan Cougler's Hades down.

Yes. I'm obsessed with the retellings. Like, I feel like there are more happening again right now. And I'm like, give me them all. I have actually, I Medusa's right here with its beautiful, great edges. But I also saw there's a, there's a Cleopatra fiction retelling that this came out. And I'm like, okay, I need to listen to that too. Yeah.

I love what you can do with resellings. Exactly. But yeah, no, the night was, oh, I mean, I did spend a lot of time crying about K-pop Demon Hunters. That was embarrassing. I was really happy for them. I'm a cryer over here, so. See, I, okay, so I fell in love with K-pop Demon Hunters. First listen. I did not want to listen. I did not want to watch it.

I'm very anti-sincere cartoons. And I know some people are going to be surprised as a Disney adult. People are going to be like, you don't like sincere cartoon. No, I hate them. Like I will not watch like studio Jibble films. I get really weird about cartoons in the sense of like I do this is such a dumb rule I have if the movie could be done with humans I don't want to see it in cartoon I get that so like you can give me a Pixar movie because I can't imagine people dress as water or fire right or I don't want to see practical versions of cars it's like and also if people are like you hate sincere cartoon I like a Pixar cartoon because I think I'm going to see a silly movie and then midway through they like hit me with like

oh you thought you were watching a movie about bugs it's about class warfare and I'm like what oh god why so I was very anti k-pop demon hunters and I was like I don't want to watch it and my boyfriend oh really my boyfriend waited until I mean I can say that on this on this show I had had had an edible and he was like what do you want to watch and I was like I don't know I don't know I want to watch and he was like hey I'm going to put on k-pop demon hunters and I was like I didn't know he put it on Okay. I was like, I don't want to watch this. It started.

And I was kind of like, this is lame. And then the first song began. And I was like, this might be the greatest rapping I've ever heard in my life. This is the greatest movie I've ever been privy to. So I immediately fell in love with the whole thing. My whole personality became like, which member of Huntrix was my bias? I have like a friend who is, this is such a name drop. She's Lizzo's older sister.

and she's like super involved in k-pop so i'm like messaging vanessa being like i need to know everything i need to know about k-pop who sounds like huntricks who sounds like saja boys like i love all the i was obsessed yeah so in my last job we had interviewed a k-pop group and i like got on the call this is like the week after the movie it happened i was like guys i've just seen what i think is going to be the biggest movie of the year. And we have like some content with K-pop stars. We really need to prioritize it. My whole team, I'm not kidding you. Everybody at the company was like, let's K-pop demon hunters. And I was like, I was like, you're all about to see it's the biggest movie in the planet. And so my tears last night won because I'm like, I knew it. I knew this was going to be

the biggest movie ever. But I'm deeply in love with the story of the women who sang. So all of them or like the main one who wrote all the music, E.J. People are probably right now being like, man, why are we deep diving into this? But I don't hear. You guys are going to hear this story. So E.J. is a reject of the K-pop Academy. So like if people ever watch the Cats Eye show, like music there is not just there's a label.

It's like the label has like an academy. They train you. It's years of training. And then they decide. It's basically making the band. Right. As your everyday life. Okay.

And so this woman, E.J. was rejected from the K-pop Academy because I believe they were like, you're too tall and you're too old to be a K-pop star. She's beautiful. Right? But she was ultimately,

she never got to make her to debut and she instead goes on to become a songwriter in the K-pop space. And it's kind of like, maybe, you know, it's kind of like, this is as far as it'll go for me. So I was having a very like emotional manifestation moment where I was like, this is so beautiful. Yes.

That this woman thought, like more so because I was like oh how beautiful that this is such a lesson in like gratitude for where you are that like she could have been angry and resentful and been like oh my god I know but instead she was like I'm gonna be this is this is obviously where my steps have been ordered is to be this songwriter and I'm gonna be the best damn songwriter they can find for this and so then she said she gets approached about an untitled k-pop movie for like some for Sony and they're like we need songs we need this and she was like and I gave it my best. She was like, I demoed every song. I wrote it. And she was like,

and then they were like, okay, we can't find people who can sing it like what we want. So like, do you want to be the person that sings it? And she's kind of like, okay. And now here we are that like she really was leaning into her gratitude and like really and not acceptance in the sense of like let this dream die, but kind of like acceptance in this level. Yeah, of like, okay, I'm going to bring the same level of like joy and dedication. and thought to this. And I'm like, now look at her. She's got Grammys.

She's got a damn Oscar. I'm like, if they take it to Broadway, it probably will win a Tony. True. I'm like, so then Homegirl, all she's got to do is come up with like a cute made for TV movie. And she said and she's done. Yes. And it just made me so excited because I'm like, all three of them are like these women

that couldn't find a place or a voice for themselves like in the traditional system. and they all said yes to a seemingly weird thing. And now look at them. Oh, that makes me. The same thing with like the voice actors as they talked about that, that they were like, the guy who plays the main dude, he's another one where he was going to make his debut. And they were like, you're too tall to be a K-pop star.

Because they were like, he's too tall to put in any groups. And now here this man is literally the only thing I know. In K-pop. I'm like, my whole knowledge is BTS. My whole knowledge is La Seraphim, BTS, twice,

because they sing on the K-pop Demon Hunter's album. And then all three of the Saja Girl of the Huntrix Ways. And that's it. I'm like, outside of that, everybody, feel free to wow me. Right.

I don't know who anyone is. Yes. Yeah. But yeah, it just made me very... It's so that a simple of, like, stupid system rules.

Yeah. And it just... missed out on this talent. And it just also warms my heart because to me, sinners and K-pop demon hunters are like spiritual siblings where they're both like movies that are about like, hey, be your authentic self, stand 10 toes down and what your thing is and it will save you. It will protect you and it will like light the way for other people to follow. Yes. And it's like, Yeah, and I just love, I love that the two most undeniably successful films of the season were two movies that really were like, oh, no, we're not just for our cultures. We are so definitively for the culture that you might have to Google stuff while you're watching if you're not part of the culture.

Because, like, there's a moment where Rumi meets, like, her love interest. And I had to Google that, like, the song they play is, like, a quintessential. K-drama song that they play when two characters meet. Yeah. Miss me or whatever that song is that plays in. Exactly. But like the idea that that movie is so definitively made for Korean people that it's like, hey, if you don't know what a bias is, if you don't know what they're talking about when they're like mirrors the visual of the group. Like if you don't get these, Google. Yeah.

You're going to have to look it up. Same thing with centers. It's like if you're watching it and you're like, I don't understand who that makes. is who's doing the really fast feet with the with the with the scary witch doctor mask look it up yes I know we will not be explaining anything to and I love art like that yes I do and we've talked about that it's like that is so deeply rooted in it is made for me and my people that it's like you're going to have to look it up like I loved even in barrier gays like the running joke about asexuality yes to a point that I had to be like is this a huge joke of

months like LGBTQIA plus people and then I was like and then in that deep dive I was like oh so this is like a barn burner of a joke yes like this is like this is the move that like this would be the moment if I was sitting in a theater full of gay people yes watching this as a movie that they'd be like and then laughing and this would be like always forget the as actually yeah I was like this would be the line that would shut it down the same as for me the amount of giggles I got out of of y'all clan sir not because i'm like oh wow rimic proved he's not racist i'm like that is so definitively black that eventually would just be like hey okay you are talking in riddles are you are you part of the clan yes or no just answer the question yeah so we can figure out

what we're dealing with people being proud proud to say yes so you're like i'm just gonna yeah you're like i'm just gonna ask or when ryan was like i've watched an interview where ryan was like yeah i was like smoke is absolutely the kind of guy that would just straight up ask this yeah he was like there is no subtlety involved for him he was like he would just be like i'm just gonna ask yeah y'all clan what's going on just tell it to me play had it written in the notes that it was like obviously offended yeah no it was just it was one of those nights where it was like yes there were things like i i i could rage out for a thousand years about sean pen winning supporting actor and i don't think people and i don't even think people understand yeah and i and i

there's layers to understand the what you are told especially as a black artist of how much you have to work and campaign and keep your foot on the gas and don't let up if you want to even be noticed by the academy all this stuff yeah and then for sean penn who did not attend a single award all year. He didn't go to a single. He didn't try. He didn't campaign. He did nothing. I didn't realize he didn't even go to the others. And literally won the big, like, that's the part where I'm like, well, that's frustrating.

Because like, I always think back to Forrest Whitaker's win. He won for Last King of Scotland, I think it was. And if I remember correctly, it was like pretty much Colin Firth. and pretty much all the white actors that were in that movie were like Boris Whitaker did such a good job it's the dude who plays I don't know why I'm blanking on his name he's in um he's in that beast movie and he uh he plays the professor Xavier in the new versions of the X-Men oh is that really hot and he's British not British he's Scottish what is his name his name is James something right again right now somebody is screaming the last name.

We know who it is. James McAvoy. Yeah, James McAvoy. James McAvoy talked about he will never do another four-year consideration campaign because he said they were all so committed to Forrest Whitaker winning that Oscar that they campaigned

so hard on his behalf and they talked about how exhausted they were doing it and that when he finally won the Oscar they were like, okay, this was all worth it. So like, to see Sean Penn not do any of it. It was kind of like, wow, Forrest Whitaker had to campaign for himself. His cast had to campaign for him.

All of that for him to be what number four to ever win the Oscar in that category. And it's like, okay, buddy. Like, you know, here we go. I have not paid much attention to Sean Penn in my lifetime either. Like, I don't know if I could have told you another movie he had been in. like I know I know he has but uh all of that to say I didn't know until recently that like he is a he's been convicted as an abuser as well oh yeah I mean doesn't surprise me it seems to be a trend in in old white male hot yeah male man Hollywood uh but so that was what was

dawning on me too as I'm like wait because what I told Tyler he hadn't seen many of these movies. Most of these movies. We don't blame him. Like, I went to most of the ones alone, actually, that were, um, it for, for consideration. Um, and so when that happened, I was like, I was like, he was repulsive. I was like, like the character was disgusting. It, like, every time he was on the screen, I was grossed out. And I was like, but then like, I also learned that, like, he might not have even been acting for that to have been the case. And I, think what I was grossed out with the role and I thought my friend Tracy nailed this on the vibe check podcast really well because I initially too was like I hate the characterization of like

Tiana Taylor I hate all like I hate the relationship between Sean Penn's character and hers and then I was like oh am I being a prude and then Tracy nailed this on vibe check where she was like no sinners have sex it has a lot of sex it has a lot of women taking agency and ownership over their bodies in relationship to sex. It was like the reason the Tiana Taylor character feels so gross is because she's not a person. And it felt like Sean Penn's character

is a person. Oh, you're right, yeah. And it felt like she was just a vehicle to move he and Leo's story along. And I think what I found really gross about his character, it's basically my main overview complaint about one of battle

after another, which is the whole movie feels like the kind of kind of movie a well-meaning white person makes to prove that they get it. So they're like, I get the struggle you guys are against. Look at these scary white men who meet in a room secretly. And it's like, okay. But we don't, but it's like, and that is the, and that movie coupled with, I saw a threads coast for the person, it was like a white guy.

He was like, I feel like the scene at the end with the clan is tacked on. He was like, it would have been better place. in the middle of the night having them come by and then like the black people and the vampires team up and i was like no because that is that character's that layout of the movie to me is one battle after another it is these like gonzo over the top versions of bad white people because i look at the sean pen character and i'm like that is absolutely when white people think of a racist they think of sean pen's character right saying the n-word doing repugnant things being And then like incredibly

attracted to her, but yeah. And then secretly right. It's like it's the same caricature we make of a Republican where it's like they're they're super buttoned up. They're super this and then they're on grinder on their phone. And I'm like that's the problem. It's not as big and obvious as that all the time. It is small and insidious. It's tiny.

It's Mary thinking that she has the ability to know how to talk to the people outside. When Annie has just told her, don't go out there. You know, it's the subtlety of we're doing something. It's the ability to let Remick into your house but keep the Native Americans out. I'm trying to remember what the quote is because this is very similar to it. Whose quote is it about fascism that talks about how it's not, like the insidious part of fascism is not the evil people?

It's the good, quote unquote, good people who stand by. Yes. And that's why I found one battle after another to be very exhausting because there was no there was no fully formed characterization outside of the evil people. Right. Yes. That was your fully formed so quickly with Tia. Yeah. Like there was a part of me that I was like, I resonate with like a woman who's like, I'm not pregnant like even some of that. Like I was like, I could kind of get that but we're not we're not learning why she felt that way. Exactly. Like what was the inciting incident? It's like, oh no, you know, perfidia Beverly Hills just woke up and it's ready. Gotta deal with the fun of now I got to put my phone on. Do not disturb. But it's like that's the part that always gets me is that there is this major lack of, yeah, of just an ability to be. Because if we only cartoonize it, it's what helps people not catch it. Exactly. And it's like it is. And it's that chaos of like Leo Jones. jumping off a building 60, you know, six stories up and all the, you know, it's like, you and I

have talked about this. I thought one battle after another was a parody. I did too. Well-meaning white people trying to be activist. And I, I made a post after I saw it and tagged a bunch of wonderful black and Native American authors. And if you were one of them, I'm sorry, I did not know enough yet. But your stories would have been better anyway for people. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying is like I immediately was like oh this must be a parody of like when a when you talk to like most white folks who go to you know it's like a perfect example and how uh useless Leo's care was like I thought that I really thought oh we are spoofing and this is commentary on the people who are like like I immediately think about when it was like we're doing a general strike and how

you had people in line being like I didn't have enough notice for the strike let's instead do a March. We'll do a protest in March. And I was like, oh, y'all want six weeks lead time to prepare for a protest. Okay. Okay. I thought that's who this movie was for. Yes. When I discovered that this was a dead honest, sincere film, I said, oh no. I fear. I fear I now may need to revise my initial assessment of this movie and of Paul Thomas Anderson. Because it's, Again, when I hear that Regina Hall, a comedian is in the movie, when I hear that Tiana Taylor, who is like, I immediately was like, oh, we're doing, like, this is satire. I was like, oh, we are doing a Percival Everett novel. That's exactly what I thought it was.

As a film where, like, I thought we were doing, like, a reverse James. Like, you know how James starts with, like, slave speak? And you're kind of like, uh-oh, how long are we going to do this? And then the turn is like, surprise. We just talked like this to make white people feel comfortable. I thought when that sucker started and perfidio was like, I'm Pafidio Beverly Hills. And all this like, you know, she was giving real. I'm Foxy Berne.

I'm Foxy Cleopatra and I'm a whole lot of woman. So I was like, oh, we're doing James. Yeah. And then when Sean Penn is like, different behind closed doors. Yeah. And then when Sean Penn is like, I was reversed raped. I'm like, oh, we're doing that. Because like that line to me is very insightful.

So I'm in a different context. So I'm like, ah, ha, ha, ha. We're doing James. I thought so too. And then I started to dig into every interview and everything. I don't think you ever loved it either. Like, I wasn't like this was the best thing and I was like this should have been shorter. But like I was like, oh, this is a good piece.

Yeah. I was like, but for the most part, this is a good piece of social commentary satire. Okay. Yeah. All right. Congrats. And then I found out that PTA was dead serious. And I said, oh, okay.

So if we're doing sincerity versus. versus sincerity, it centers all day every day. Yeah. Because to the point of that person that was like, no, it should have been the black people and the vampires versus the clan. No, because that's the point of the movie. It is what my sweet boyfriend said to me when we left, which was, oh my God, I know how to fight vampires. I have no, I'm realizing I would not have known what to do with the clan the next morning. Because what do you mean?

And I was like, that's the movie is, yes, the supernatural, the fantastical, the other world they could happen. But there are still horrors to be dealt with when the sun comes up. Yes. And so like for that reason. I would have fought with them either, by the way. So for that reason, I was very like, when they're like, best director and best movie. And it's like, it all was very like the same year as when it was like Green Book versus Black. clansmen and Black Panther, you're like, we could award the actual stories or we could award

this made up thing. And for people who don't know and this is your first time hearing me on here, Green Book, as many of you know, is the story of this white man that was a show for her for this black man. Well, for those of y'all that don't know me, your girl has a father who technically has an Eot because of his place. Some credibility. Some credibility. And I, also my dad is friends with the family of the gentleman that was portrayed by Myrtle Ali. And my favorite thing in the world was when they called my dad to say, how do we stop this? He only knew this man for a day.

One day? Lord of mercy. He barely remembered and spoke to him. How has this family built a whole story that he was this like advisor, like, trusted confident person that taught him how to live. So was the piano player, is he also gay or not? Was that something? Yes, that is true.

But the issue was like the relationship. I was just wondering how far they were. No, the relationship they had, non-existent. Like the whole con. And so like that's why for me that year was a perfect example of like, here are two people telling the real, here's Black Panther, Afro Futurism. Here's Black Klansman.

a true story about a black person that infiltrated the clan and both lose to a fantasy tale of black and white solidarity that never happened. And so then this year it felt very like a real legitimate piece of black storytelling versus a like trauma porn fantasy of black struggle as it exists. And it matters who it's coming from. is that other point because it's like I try to make sure I'm not only reading like black horror basically but it works when it's still like Tananarivu and Octavia Butler I think are like my top faves is what I'm yeah they're the ghosts but it's like there are other there anyway my

my real point being but if a white woman wrote the reformatory One, it probably wouldn't be the reformatory as it is. But, like, that would, it's, it's just not the same. It is, I, that's a whole conversation that I don't even know how creatives completely approach it. Because, well, we kind of, we were talking about Ludwig a little bit, too, where I've even heard Ryan Cougler talk about, like, there's a difference between appreciation for art and appropriation of art. And it seems like Ludwig is, like, across culture. He really does. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's like obviously there's somewhat room for creatives to work outside of their lived experience. But like it's I don't know how to, I don't even know how to have a conversation about that sometimes is like, what do you do? Like should a person be telling certain stories? And I think what's, and I think that's the interesting part about one battle after another is like, I think if PTA had given us more and even had more commentary on like, who thinks he's this great revolutionary, but in reality, like, hasn't really done anything outside of have a kid with this woman,

you know, or, like, for us to dig into Sean Penn's character, where it's like, where did this fetatization come from? How is he able to square off, like, his incredibly racist views with the fact that he prefers and like sleeping with black women? You know, it's like, there was so much there where I'm like, you didn't have to tell perfidia's story. You didn't have to tell jungle pussy's story. You didn't have to dig into it.

to chase infinity's story. You could have literally used your lived experience as a white man with a biracial black wife and you could have dug into how, because I'm watching it with my partner. Like the way people

will talk to him until they, until then he will reveal like, my dog's name is Beyonce. And then all of a sudden you can tell the person's like uh-oh. I thought I was talking to a fellow brother. did not know that you are a sympathizer for the other side.

Like we had, there was a situation that happened downtown where we live. And one of his coworkers in checking on him said, oh my God, did you see these animals attached to your building? We both thought this person meant actual animals. Like, yeah,

like a coyote was downtown. Yeah. When he finally sent the video of what he was talking about, it was a group of black kids during a street takeover. but to my point of what PTA could have played with is that moment of like Leo could have had that same role of my boyfriend had which is oh my god this person thought I was a safe place to say this really fucked up thing in front of huh and so in that moment when he was really upset I was like hey that's your superpower like you get to walk like very black clansmanie I'm like you get to walk into this room and you get to hear the things that people don't wouldn't say to me wouldn't say in polite. Like you get to come back. You are the spy on the inside.

You know and hear things that I will never be privy to. People will never say these things in front of me. Because they are to what I thought the movie was getting at, well-meaning white people. They would never say to a black woman. They would never call a group of black kids like a group of animals. Yeah. And to my face.

No. And so like that I wanted to see. Paul Thomas Anderson play with is like, okay, then fine. If you're going to like center the story around these people, then I want to see like some of the misinformation Sean Penn's character gets. Yeah. How he, truly, how he is hearing about black women that makes him think this is totally acceptable. I know. You know, it's like, I'm curious.

How has Leo navigated raising this biracial black girl? Right. As this white man who considers himself a revolutionary. like what if oh okay how have you been doing it or i want to see his lack of understanding i want to see him thinking that just telling her your mother was really strong was enough right yeah like it's like there was so much more there he could have done that leaned into his POV that i didn't need to see his interpretation of what he thinks black women talk about when nobody's in the room oh my god yeah then there's that you know it's like great fantastic we passed the bechdel test but also like

really this is what you think we're talking about when nobody's around it's just yeah it was just i think between timmy pta sean penn i think the theme of the night and some of the teasing that people did to like you know stella and sars guard and all these people i think the theme of last night when it came to the teasing was like white dudes that think they get it and just need to close their mouths and stop talking just please stop talking shut shut up shut your shut your mouth Go away. Yeah, because all roads right now lead back to him. Not all roads.

But for like, but for the night, it's like the true to me embodiment of so much of what, at least for me, with the rub of last night, was this thing that was embodied to Timothy Shalabay, which is the like, the art I make is the most important art. And as much as I rolled my eyes about one battle after another winning, I do appreciate in his. his speech that Paul Thomas Anderson was like, I can't even remember it. He was like the year this particular movie won, it was nominated with these other movies. Yeah, he kind of called them his class of directors. But like, I appreciated that he acknowledged like, hey. Yeah. I am fully aware that when history looks back on tonight, this will be no different. I mean, hell, because I'm reading the damn Bernie Gets book. It's like this will be no different than 84 where it's do the right thing versus driving Miss Daisy.

And now you've got all these years and decades later, people are like, wow, Spike was robbed. Yes. Like, holy cow. Yeah. It was just, yeah. And then the other one we talked about even before we started recording was when Michael B. Jordan won. And for people that don't know, typically black actors and actresses win supporting actor and actress. They do not win lead actor and actress.

Only six people total have done that. one is Hallie Barry and the other five were Sydney Poitier, Denzel Washington, Forrest Whitaker, Jamie Fox, and Will Smith. So when Michael started giving his speech, when he started giving his speech and he forgot and he was like, I want to say thank you to Sidney Poitier. I said out loud, oh God, I hope you remember the names of everybody has to say. And then I stopped and I said, McKenzie, he only has to remember six names. Yeah. That is it. And like I also think it's it's one of those things when I started just consuming more history about everything about America that I that I wasn't learning in school.

So those things were at first you're like learning like all this new stuff. And then once you've kind of like sat in it, then you start knowing like the key players especially when we're talking about black people in America because there's. such small amount of recognition. You're like, oh, I remember that. Oh, I remember that. So it's like, it's also one of those things we're like, of course he remember the six people. Because it's like, that's, that's, that's all he's had for like, that's all he's had. And that was the thing. It's like, even I had to take a moment. Because I remember once at BET, this was my, when I was at BT Plus, it was the year Cynthia was nominated for Harriet. And I made, and I was like live memeing the show.

And I'd made like some memes before that. And one of the. memes I made because she was nominated for Best Actress was, it was an empty stadium. Like, the meme was like an empty stadium with one person sitting in this massive stadium. And I was like, oh, look, it's all the winners of best actress, all the

black women who won Best Actress from one place. And it was like one person in Giant Stadium. And immediately the comments you get are like, no, you're forgetting Viola Davis, you're forgetting Hattie McDaniels. And when you have to remind people, that is best supporting actress. Yeah. Only one person

has won best actress and it's Hallie Barry her Monsters Ball. And that was the other funny part is like walking my boyfriend through like this is typically the thing. It's like Hallie wins for playing a drug addict opposite Billy Bob Thornton. You know, it's like I'm like it's always some like

Denzel wins for playing a crooked cop not for playing Malcolm X which is an incredible performance but for playing a crooked cop. You know it's like you know and so I was saying to him. I said, you know, you look at this list and I was like, and it's like, oh, wow, that's cool. And I go, but I also see like the roles they had to take the things that had to be sacrificed, all this stuff. And I said, so there's also something so beautiful about Michael has really not.

I mean, you want to talk about the Beyonce of acting. It's he and Ryan Coogler have not compromised who their content is for, who they make movies for, what messages they put in the movie, like I even laughed at one point when they showed the Delroy. Like you know how they do the clips. And I was out. I kept saying like, oh God, who decided all these clips? Because like the clip for Delroy is, oh, white people love the blues. They just don't love the people that sing it.

And I said, I was like, oh, my God, these clips are reminding people of how black this movie is. Right. And how unrelenting it is. And I even texted you and I was like, Ludwig's going to win because he's the one white man involved with this film who's not the bad guy. Yes. And I think that one.

Yeah. And I think there was truly something about Michael winning and his film, his filmography and his content for the most part, because like he's told these stories of Chad, because of Chadwick's guidance have definitively been things. I think that have very much moved culture. Because like, yes, there's the handful of Zach Efron level rom-coms in there. But for the most part, it's been the why. Fruithvale Station, Black Panther, Creed, you know, it's like he has really intentionally

made movies that speak to a specific group of people and do not relent on what they're about. I cannot tell people. I obviously love sinners. I don't feel like I have to keep saying. I probably didn't need to qualify that. but what's crazy to me and I'm not saying this to sound like a well-meaning white woman some movies I see and I'm like you really thought that was coming at you that hard like yeah that was just like a movie that had correct cultural context that's same same blows my mind sometimes

I'm like that movie didn't hate on white people but it did hate on the clan like kind of here legit dog taller thing I'm like why are you offended by that Or my favorite thing I ever learned from my boss at Paramount, this was when we were working on Spenses. So I worked in the worldwide domestic market research team. That's the team that is largely doing everything from like, do we want to green light this film based on like the data and the appetite from an audience down to like what's in the trailer? Like or even hell, what pull quotes get put on a trailer. You know, like how you'll watch a trailer and they're like, Rolling Stone says it's the greatest film of all time. That is the department.

Like, as you're, everybody seeing Project Haldry Press. Yeah. There was a department that had to look at numbers to decide what quotes go on the screen at what time. I believe it. My boss, I remember we were working on fences and she taught me the funniest lesson. She said, if you want, and this was a white lady. Her name was Karen. Oh, she said, if you want white people to see a black film, you cannot use eye words.

it makes them not want to go to the movie. She said so if you call a movie important, impactful. No, like literally, no, meaning like, no, like you can't say this is an important film. This is impact. It's informative. Like, none of that. You can't deal with books either. Like, don't, it fits.

You can't tell somebody, oh, my God, this is such an important book. You have to read it. Exactly. Yeah. And so, like, when I think about Fruitvale Station, that was a. powerful film that's so few people like if people want to see the early genesis of how we got to hear with sinners that being Ryan and Michael's like and Ludwig the whole team yes that being their first kind of go at a movie it is one of the most powerful films I've ever seen yeah but it was

marketed as it's a really important film that we think everybody should see I feel like nobody saw it. Yeah. So truly, again, back in theaters. I don't know if they're still doing it. I almost was able to go see it again in theaters, but I was sick. But like, that's the thing is like when I am watching like Scorsese and Spielberg and all these people say, they're like, Ryan Coogler is going to be on this Mount Rushmore with us one day. You guys better start paying it. Truly, truly. But it's like, but you guys better start paying attention to him. And I think to what we said in the

first conversation where I was like, sinners is either going to get everything it deserves or they're going to play in its face. And for the most part, I'll be honest. I feel like they played in their face last night. Yeah. There's no reason that it shouldn't have won best director. Just for the fact that Ryan was able to explain to all of us what the different film aspect ratios were and why they mattered to the movie. Yeah. And made me care about all the crazy magic they use to shoot both twins. I don't. And I saw someone point out, you mean this film that got, was it 14 or 16, nominations across all of these departments that worked so well together. Yeah. How do you get nominated for all of that? And the director is not the best director. And I was like, that's my thing.

Like, how are you going to tell me the cinematography was great? The costumes are great. The makeup was great. The music. The sound was great. The music was great. The editing was great. So you're going to tell me all of that just happened to be fantastic. Nobody was in charge. And it was the director was okay. There was no captain on this ship. What are you talking about? What? That's crazy.

What? No. We don't know anything. Well, and then the other thing that to me is like take race out of it, which you can't. But for the sake of people who say that and what they mean by it. So sinners had like four theatrical releases, I think at this point. We have our initial one. then a couple months later it went all out into imaxes again so i even went and saw it a second

time i've loved michael b jordan thanking everyone who went multiple times i was like i was like yeah i was like thank you so much for acknowledging my hard work but it's like then it was in theaters again around Halloween was that what it was see that is but to me that is a reflection of campaign season is because if you think about it movie came out in february right yeah I think that is where they park your important films they yeah they park your black movies in February they parked black panther there because the assumption is it's not going to do numbers but it will get an audience yeah a black audience who wants to see it and maybe because I know people are going to think this this is literally how it is discussed and maybe you'll catch white people that feel like they have to go see one black movie during because it's black history month so like When that movie, when I sat in that theater and I watched it with my mom the first time, I genuinely was like, oh, no, they're about to be on the campaign trail for like a year. Yeah. Yeah, I was like, they're going to have to maintain the frenzy around this film until next Christmas.

Yeah. I was like, they're going to have to get people to care about this film until Christmas. And then they get to start their four-year consideration campaign. And that's also what. The fourth time was early this year in 2020. Exactly. It went back into theaters. But the demand was still there too.

So I think like everything you're saying, but then the point to me, I'm like the fact that people kept going to see a movie like that, even with multiple releases. Yeah. That logically to me, that that's why I was saying like the people who say keep race out of it, it's impossible. But to the people saying that, I'm like, look at like those literal numbers. should tell like one battle after another didn't go back into theaters. No. And and I think I think what's going to be interesting and I want to see how the Academy deals with it because this has been a critique since Black Panther especially from no, this has been a critique from black audiences. I'd say since like forever. But I feel like it's most prominent that I remember around Dreamgirls. And it's kept going is this thing of like do not nominate black films. or by, or BIPOC films that bring people in so that you can get the viewership for the night of, but then not actually as an academy voting body, vote for these films.

Because that's what creates this push and pull where you always hear this thing about like, viewership is down. People don't care. It's because literally people tune in. It's why they've now organized the show the way they do is because they know these, audiences like for example black audiences you could have black folks who never cared about film but because they cared about centers they went to see all the Oscar films they wanted to engage in the discourse around it they wanted to be educated viewers they wanted to be able to answer whether or not they really thought Timothy shallame was better than Michael B Jordan so it's like they use the

they use it as bait to bring in the audience to have the numbers from an ad sales ad support like profitability standpoint but then when it comes time for the actual academy members, they're like, sorry. I love PTA and it's really crazy. He hasn't won yet. You know, this was the first year that they required voting members to watch all of the films.

And that should tell everybody something. That is insane. It's like the Good Reads Awards, which like, happy for. Don't even get me started on those good reads. And my girl, Aaron, with Junie, got, no, she still didn't even win.

She was just not made it. So. I lost my mind. But that's the same thing. Like, I'm just like, you're just looking, like,

all it is is people being like, oh, I read this one. Like, I really tried not to vote on ones that I had. I don't vote in a single category. I know nothing about. That's my thing.

And I want to have read more than two if I'm going to vote at all. Like, if I open up a category and I've only got one book. I'm like, Mackenzie, you don't know enough about this. Like, yeah.

It's, it's nothingness because, and I didn't realize, like, I don't know how you force the Academy. me to watch and I'm sure that probably means there are still some people who just press play and like well because think about it think about how surprise everybody was when s jp was like yeah i'm one of the

booker prize nominees and she was like i read like 150 books they were shocked and people were like there's no way and she was like this is my job this is all i'm doing right now if that's all you're doing 150 is not much and i say that positively but truly if like if somebody said my whole job was to sit down pommodoro timers nothing Yeah, I'm like, that was not an impossible number. When she said that, I said, that's not impossible. No. When I have Sundays where I have key in audio books, like, it's very possible.

I truly was like, it's so possible. I'm like, because when I think about books like hunchback, I'm like, I read that in a day. Yeah. I'm like, I could have absolutely have started like, what's his face, David Salazar's book later the same day. You know, it's like, I'm like flesh. I could have started flesh later that day after finishing hunchback. But that's my thing where when people were like, oh my God, how is you reading all of these? I'm like, if you agree to be a judge in these things that are determining the best thing,

you should have to involve all the things. The same thing happens to the Tony. So you have to see every show. I saw an epic thread that said something about needing sinners to be on Broadway because they're like you can rig an Oscar, but you can't rig a Tony. You can't rig a Tony. No. That is the gods on his truth. I have been to many of a performance where you're like, the Tonys, you really do go to

like a show where like somebody's been nominated for better. And you're like, okay, I see why he won. Yeah. I see why this won. Like you're never, I've never sat in a Tony winning show and been like, how did this win? Yeah. I've sat there and been like, okay. I've seen.

I can see it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the part that I'm just like, okay, we got to step up. Like the academy is still the academy. Y'all are still getting on my nerves. This is still lame as hell the way you guys are approaching this stuff, you know, kind of thing. Well, and we even talked about it.

Like, I wouldn't have been mad of Jacob Allorty one supporting. Because, like, it's the other thing that I think that movie specifically is making me think about how much sometimes, like, I would say he was a co-star, you know? It's almost like Frankenstein Ian Frankenstein's monster. My boyfriend did say that when it's when they started reading the nominees, he goes, how is Frankenstein supporting? I said, first of all, that's Frankenstein's monster. Yeah. So that's why he's supported.

That's why. And he was like, fine. I know. But it was making me think there are some movies where you're like or like, I mean, I don't know a buddy cop movie, but that's what comes to mind that would be. See, my first thought of a buddy cop movie is Wicked. Wicked was a perfect example. Oh, yes.

Cynthia is actress and Ariana was supporting actress. Yeah. Yeah. Like it does feel like there are some that maybe we should share. But yeah, that was I literally, I told Tyler, I was like, I think I was like, I think it could be. I wasn't thinking Sean Penn was even going to get it. I'm to be completely honest. In my head.

I was like, I think it's going to be Jacob Allerty. Like I want it to be Michael, but I'm okay with. I truly was like, I want Delroy, Delroy Lindo to win supporting actor. I was like, he has been at this. Sorry, Delroy, not Michael. Yeah, no, I knew exactly. I was like, he's been at this for so long. He's killer.

Mm-hmm. It was very Stephanie Shoe versus, uh, was, uh, Angela Bassett for me. Oh, yes. Where I'm like, well, it's Stephanie Shue or Angela Bassett. Yeah. It never occurred to me that Jamie Lee Curtis would pull up the rear because the voting academy is like, oh my God, she's been, we love her. I know her.

I met her at a party because that's literally what it is. And to me, this was a perfect example of like, okay, I guess negging can get you an Oscar because the fact that Sean Penn's like, I don't want to come. I don't like you guys. I loved that Karen was like, he's not here because he has something else or he doesn't want to be here. He didn't want to come. I was like, oh. But she said or he just didn't want to come. I was like, thank God. Somebody finally said it. I was like, I'm so glad one of you said it. Yeah. Or it was like, let's just be really real. And I love the Shirley Ralph was like, that was a choice. Like that was all she published. closed it on threads. She was like, wow, so interesting that the, the winner is someone who has not at all done any of the stuff we've been told we have to do to get these awards. The comment on Timitay was hilarious too. Like, I saw it on TikTok, but it was on some carpet.

And like, so many people thought she even was, it was another one where like, people thought she was being sincere and she was being sarcastic and hilarious. Yeah. And I just, that was like, of course she is. And I was like, because she is a literal train. stage actor. Yeah. Because all I can think about in that moment, too, about the Timothy of all is when they did the actors on actors with

Ethan Hawke and Sidney Yes. And that moment when she's like, oh, I get so nervous. And he's like, oh, have you ever performed on the stage? And she's like, oh, my God, no, I get so nervous. And he's like, that's not nerves. That's laziness. And she's like, ha, ha, ha.

And he's like, no, really. Yeah, he's literally like, no, you're not a real actor if you've never like tested yourself and done stage. And she's like, well, you know, I just get so nervous. And Densbell is like always saying that too. Like he's like, you can't leave the stage. Yeah.

And I love the way he explains it where he's like, a movie is the director's vehicle. Yes. Which again, takes me back to why Ryan Cougler is so impressive because it is at the end of the day, a movie is the director's vision. When Denzel said that thing about he was like, you could give the most striking monologue of your whole life. He was like, you're crying, you're snotting. Everything happening. He was like, and the director has been slowly zooming in. Yes.

On like a can of beer. Yes. He was like, you just have to go, okay, all right. This was not about my face or anything. And when he was like, but on the stage, it's you and that monologue. You have to sell that monologue. And so like to me, when I think about a Ryan Coogler, he really did let everyone shine. Like when Delroy Lindo told that story about how that whole monologue in the car did not exist.

And that Delroy went to Ryan after a screening and literally said, hey, I think you need to leave this in. He was like, I'm not trying to be selfish or trying to be like, I deserve a monologue. He was like, I just think otherwise Delta Slim is just like, he's just there. Right. He doesn't serve anything. Yeah, he was like, you can't think. Especially to people who would not know the depth, a man that ate. had experienced. Exactly. Had experience and been through and like why he would be the way he is.

Like, because let's be honest, without that monologue, he's just some random drunk that they pick up at the station. So like, again, to me, it is so reflective of him as a director that everybody gets a chance to shine and his vision comes through. Yes. That every single actor gets their moment that you're like, oh my God, I get to know. know like when people talk about the first part of the movie being slow no you get to meet everyone you understand grace and beau chow yeah get what motivates them and moves them so when she's screaming come in you're not surprised you're not like where did that come from you're like oh this woman has opinions she has been she is not just you know a delicate flower yeah she's she's not

the model minority she's not been she's not being a good quiet Asian woman right she has this whole time given opinion she's the one negotiating the money Got it. Mm-hmm. Like, he gives everybody their moment. Yeah. As we're like, yeah, you could argue, you know, I see you call Thomas Anderson. Actually, more so the Safty brother.

It's like more Josh Safty that you're kind of like, I don't know what I'm supposed to care about here. Mm-mm. I don't, you know, it's like, I did have moments where I was like, we didn't need Gwenith Palo. I'm like, I think we just did this so that people would care about this movie, my guy. I'm like, Tyler the creator doesn't need to be in here. why is Kevin O'Leary from Shark Tank in here? Oh my gosh. Did you see his outfit last night?

I mean, I don't know how I'm sure you did. That dude is. I would not want to be in a room alone with that. He's really Canadian Donald Trump and I just refuse. That is the perfect way to say. I refuse with him. I just. People, Mark Cuban, like, staying as far as we know, a pretty fucking decent guy.

And here's the thing, because you and I both have read Apprentice in Wonderland. I'm like, Mark Burnett, you. You will pay for your crimes. Yes. You will pay for the rich men you put on TV and platform. When I see you, it's on site, my friend. We are going to have a debate. Whether he wants to or not.

Whether he wants to or not. Yeah. It was something. And now it's going to be interesting to see what this next season looks like. Because I'm like, all I can attest. a test so far as it looks like. No. Right now it's looking. That was the first. That's true. I truly right now I think like the way it's stacking up it's looking like if you were to like do a fantasy draft for a wood season. The only two films I can make sense of right now are Project Hill Mary and the Odyssey.

The Odyssey is what I thought. Oh my gosh. And that's the part that sucks. An eight minute preview when we saw Project Hill Mary in 70 millimeter. I will be seeing the Odyssey in 70 million. I will be seeing the Odyssey in 70 For sure. See, I'm jealous because every 70 millimeter IMAX theater here sold out the day they did the ticket for us. I saw it. I saw it an hour after it had posted and there were like six seats left. Yeah. And I was like, by it. Tyler's gone. I was like, I'm buying it. If he doesn't want to go, he doesn't have to. Truly. I was like if I, I love that it got sold out here and then people were like reselling. There were like $200. I'm like, I don't care that much. I'm like, you guys are idiots. I Like, now, if you bought these tickets thinking there are cinephiles that care this much, you miss the part of the AMC stubs where it's broke people, myself included, that are like, hey, I want a $2 ticket.

Yes. Who do you think you're selling a $200 ticket to, my guy? Yes, I know. I know. Like, these are the people who actually care about being able to see. Yeah. I'm like, obviously, you miss the memo. I'm like, you've missed the part on Letterbox where we're all over here watching stuff for free 99.

Yes. It's one of my favorite subscriptions. I'm like, especially if anyone has dogs who, I say this, I'm slandering them. They're being great right now. But if you're ever like, I just can't, I just can't do this. I can't be in this house by myself and keep getting barked at. You can go see a C-list movie and like, that's okay. It's kind of nice too.

Like, sometimes Crime 101 was good. Like, I'm not going to be talking about it next. year. No, but still. I had like dropped Tyler off at the, why is their motion in my garage? Oh, I know. I was, windy that it was just there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. I was like, no one's supposed to be here for like seven hours and I don't like that notification. But, uh, yeah, I had like dropped Tyler off. They had been crazy all day. I came home and they started barking at me and I'm like, I'm going to go see a decent movie. I know. That's my thing. It's like, it's so interesting because last.

really felt so deeply like this renaissance not just of like film but like original story and so i think it's going to be interesting that like right now even on animated because like think about the animated movie was like it was like elio which is about like a like a neurodivergent kid with the disability talking to aliens came up like already it's shaving up to be like oh super mario two toy story four you know i'm like no i'm like no oh boo you know i'm excited but i'm just like damn we had a really good year last year and i'm like we're gonna have to wait i know and the year before was really really good too because that was like challengers yeah tons of movies uh strange darling i love strange darling yeah there's so many

and there were some this past year like him i'm still mad that more people i'm still mad yeah I'm still I him to me is one of those movies that like it should have done well it's a lot like blink twice I feel like it'll catch on right when something that happens in the zeitgeist makes people realize like oh this movie wasn't that gonzo and far out because I feel like blink twice it I say this as somebody who went to see American Psycho the musical in 2016 no 2015 a musical version of that oh yeah I had never seen the the movie. This is 2015. This is pre this man coming down the escalator, all this stuff. And I remember they invited all the business schools in New York to this show. And the reason this stands out to me, and it makes me think of him and of blink twice, I remember sitting next to this girl. Again, keep in mind, this is 2015. This is when everybody's like, nobody would ever elect that man as president. I remember the girl next to me goes, this show is disgusting. And I was like, what do you mean? She goes, I'm supposed to believe this man is so consumed by what?

that he's willing to like kill his enemies. He's willing to kill his own competition. He treats women like disposable objects. That is disgusting and we should not be platforming men like that. If that show were to come out today, people would be like, this show is so deep. This show is commentary on the manosphere. Yeah, they would understand more.

Same thing when I went to see Groundhog Day the musical. I remember hearing this dad go, yeah, right, because we're all going to be stuck in the same thing. the same day forever. Okay. This was in 2019. In 2020, all I could think about was if this show hadn't closed and it came out in 20 and it comes out next year, we all survived this. People would flock to that show. Same thing with blink twice. Blink twice happens and people are like, what a insane movie about an island where billionaires kidnap women and children and use them and maybe even kill them, potentially eat them

in some cases. What a silly movie Zoe Cravitz has made. What a insane film. I'm supposed to believe that people were being drugged on a sex island and taken advantage of and either disposed of or sent back into the real world and never to discuss it. That's crazy.

If Zoe had just waited. You've been really new then too. Literally. When that movie came out. If Zoe had just waited two, three years, people would have been like, oh my God, Zoe crap, it's basically, now everybody's like, oh my God, Zoe knew. She knew it.

I think that's going to be him. I think him will be one of those movies that when we have another Aaron Hernandez situation and we see all that football takes from someone, I think then people will go, oh, my God, this reminds me of that crazy movie, him. It's like they're selling their soul. It's probably going to have to be a white football player too. Oh, yeah. It's going to take, like, Patrick Mahomes, getting hurt, and then, like, abandoning.

everything pulling a Tom Brady that people will be like oh my God he gave up everything so that he could be on he could be one of the goats he really is him he really is that guy you really have to take the money oh my God you got to give up everything to be the best oh my God and then people will be like oh my God that's like that movie him yeah they're going to be like that was a good movie gladiator

literally oh yeah really is it wow it's almost like It was exactly like that, you dummy. That one should have gotten. I love that one so much. I don't care that it. It's horror. That's the thing, too. Like, yes, the end is campy.

But that's horror. But it's horror. That's the deep dive. You and I keep joking we want to do more of. It is. It's all of that stuff. It's like it's making sure that people understand. Like, there's deeper connectivity to like what's happening in culture when it comes to horror films.

Yes. And psychological horror is just as scary. Yeah. I mean, that was physical, too. But it's like, I think people aren't picking up on the psychological horror. Exactly. In these movies. No, literally.

Well, have you read anything recently that you liked? Oh. I'm, so I am right now, I'm on an interesting deep dive. So I just read my favorite productivity book. It's called Make Time. I love that book so much. I cannot recommend it enough. for other people that have like a real life and can't like turn their phone off all the time.

I'm also finally digging into the last book in Ryan Holiday's Four Virtue series. Wisdom takes work. I've had it for a minute and not been able to focus. And then I'm finally reading Razor Blade tears in the evening. Oh. Yeah. The library had it. You know, the usual Libby Hold where they're like, you have seven days.

I'm like jokes on you guys. I'm going to get this done in seven days. Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah. You're going to love that one. Yeah, I can't wait. I have a huge essay Cosby girl over here. So I started one for anyone who is on YouTube right now. But this one is called the hospital at the end of the world. I've heard about this. Justin C. Key. Yeah. This is like if artificial wisdom and I had a great comp for it just recently. Well, it might have left. Oh, yeah, because artificial wisdom is one that you got me hooked on. Yes.

The concepts in general is, there is, and you know what, I'm just going to pull it up because this is when I was just having a conversation with someone about how sometimes you don't want to know much. Like, I, if I don't have to read the whole synopsis and I know that there are enough elements to it that I like, then I will just skip it. So, okay. From the author of the acclaimed, The World Wasn't Ready for You comes a thrilling first novel, set in a near future where artificial intelligence runs the world, specifically hospitals,

involving a young medical student who must unravel family secrets to uncover the truth of his father's mysterious death. It is blowing my mind with the things that this author is incorporating into it. And I think I'm going to get to interview him because it was one of these wild things where I started listening to it. It came out in February. Yeah. I started listening to it a little while ago.

And then I got an email from a publicist and was like, are you interested in any of these? And his was on there. And I was like, yes, I'm listening to this right now. So hopefully I'm going to talk to him. But it's like it's Afrofuturism for sure. Oh, nice. And I think we've, I think you and I've even talked about it.

There are good uses of AI. There are uses of technology that people call AI and then they get scared. It's not even AI. It's not even AI. Yeah. And then there are bad uses of AI. There's all of that. And I feel like this is doing a fantastic job.

Oh, good. I love those kind of books. Not demonizing either side. Yeah. Because, I mean, it's like at the end of the day, all technological advances can be bad. I mean, hell, there are people that read who think, there are people who read stoicism and think it gives them the right to be a sociopath. So, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, um, it's really fantastic. I'm really enjoying it. And then I'm also listening. to because I saw you post about it listening to cults like us why do thinking drives America and having the same experience where I'm like I know I'm so now as an adult so removed from what my childhood was like where I still have moments sometimes I read something and I'm like holy shit for me it's such a fascinating conversation because I'm like what do you mean you're waiting on the Lord

to return and you need Armageddon. Because again, I grew up in black church. Yeah. So I didn't grow up hearing I'm apparently worthless. I need God to be complete. I'm like, so I have been shocked over these last few. I mean, I told you the story of me going to the evangelical church in college and not knowing that's what it was.

And I was like, how fun! I was like, what fun. This music is so wild. Mind you, I'm not even putting together. Like, it was real Dugger style. Because your girl, I'm always two seconds from being an occult. I'm always two seconds. My buddy James is the same way.

The way the two of us have Forrest Gumped our way out of some horrible cults. I mean, we're talking. You're curious about experiences. That's where it ends up like. Oh, let me tell you, your girl was at the hotel in L.A. during the inciting incident of the Beekrum scandal. I was staying there for something separate. And I at the time was taking Beekram yoga.

And I remember even saying when I saw somebody with the Beekrum side, I was like, oh, cool. you guys doing like a class? Oh, sweet. Can anybody join? And then my mom told me I couldn't go because she was like, you just got your hair done. And I was like, oh, you're right. So yeah, I'm always two seconds from ending up in a cult.

I'm always inches away. And so that church was like my first real, I was in college and that was my first real introduction to that kind of like evangelical Christianity because, you know, you're sitting in a room where everybody's like, this is my person. we're going to get married. And I'm like, oh my God, that's amazing. How long have you guys known each other? And they're like, oh, we just started courting like a month ago. And I'm like, what? I have to drop war because it's fun lore.

And I try not to make this my whole personality. So I don't always talk about it. But then when I do share stories, people are like, oh, my God. Yeah. We moved. So like when you're a pastor's kid, it's actually pretty common to move every couple years. It is. White churches. I don't know if that's other churches as well. And we somehow stayed in our first church for 10 years. And then when I was basically when I was 10 years old,

we moved to an even smaller, more rural town. And so when we got there, the, I can't remember what the word is, because it's not deacons like the like other churches, but one of the, the biggest donor to this church. Yeah. Um, was, had a son who had two sons. One was four years older than me and one was seven years older than me. And they started joking, I'm 10. They started joking that I would marry the younger son one day. And then when I was 15 and he was 19, we did start dating. Oh, God. And while we were dating, his dad would come and tell me about the dreams he had where God was revealing his grandchildren to him. that I was going to give birth to

and he would come tell me this this stuff. Knowing you now, it's so funny whenever you drop like pre-deconstruction lore. I'm like, I'm like, can't even reconcile this person's even listening to that.

Like the person I know now, I'm like, would absolutely be like, the fuck? What are you talking about money? The idea that there was a version of you that was like, thank you so much for that information. How exciting. I was like, thank you. I do love your son very much. The extra kicker is he and my mom had been sleeping together for years at that point. And he played in the band and our families did everything together. We did stuff all week on together. It's always fun for me because I have insane lore that I will say things. People are like, what? Yeah. And then it's always funny to me because you have insane lore, in my opinion, that is actual.

lore like you'll say things and I'm like like I said I'm like this person and that person I cannot believe that they've existed inside the same human form that's crazy I was showing during my book club one of our girls is from Spain and I actually that was my that was my graduation gifts when I was 18 years old I got to I got to go to Spain with my mom the whole time I was just like I don't know how I'm going to survive being alone with her international it was scary but I was showing them pictures and I'm blonde and I'm skinnier is the other part. The blonde is the one that more so gets me. I don't know what you're talking about with skinnier. I'm more so at every event of old pictures. I'm like, who is this blonde woman? And I'm probably

two shades lighter than what I have now. But yeah, it just both my parents were blonde and by college, it turned brunette and that was the same thing for me. So I was bleaching by the time I was in college. but they're like, I can't even like connect that person with like who you are. And I'm like, I understand that. But for me, it's not even, it's not the physical part. The thing for me is the, to me it's the mental. Like I said, you telling me that somebody would be like, oh, I'm having dreams about my grandchildren being born from you that I'm like, that would never happen in a world of you being around.

No, no, which is why. And I texted you about it. But shout out to wild geese. We got to do some coverage. of Marcus Zusak's The Book Thief, which, oh, my God, if you want to talk about fascism is when the good people don't do anything. That is what that book embodies. So it was really special to get to hear him talk about it. But they asked if Tyler would do some coverage of it. And they came up to me after it. And they were like, oh my gosh, can you apologize to your husband? Because

we realized we didn't know what his name was. So we kept calling him Mr. Book Wild. my heart just almost like soared and elevated out of my chest and it was exactly what you just said because it was me remembering i was like i grew up somewhere where i was expecting to be i'm not going to say the dude's name but like but like you were supposed to be mrs so-and-so yeah i was supposed to lose my name i was supposed to lose my agency i was supposed to have kids immediately it wasn't supposed to be about me and so when they said they called him mr book wild i was like i have healed everything we have done it i haven't but it felt like it I mean, I think that's perfect timing because I'm getting client text.

Ooh. Well, if anyone has any anything they want to say to us, well, yeah, broad statement. But you can DM if you're nice. Yeah, DM us. Let us know what more rambling deep dives you guys want us to get into.