Bookwild - Our Favorite Book Buzzwords and Outlier Books We've Read with Halley

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

This week, Halley Sutton is back and we talk about buzzwords that grab our attention in synopses and some of our favorite books that are outliers compared to what we normally read.Books Kate Talked AboutMade For LoveAce of SpadesLast Night at the Hollywood CanteenDid You Hear About Kitty Karr?Carrie Soto is Back Books Halley Talked AboutHeating and CoolingMr. FoxThursday Next SeriesGet in TroubleHow to Be EatenFrankissstein  Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

This week I am back with Hallie Sutton. Sutton. I don't know why I said your name is so pronounced like that or enunciated, but I did. So I'm super excited. We always have fun. We do. And I feel like we just have an infinite amount of things we could talk about, really. Totally.

Totally. I want to start off. Can I ask you, how are things going with your book? That's a great question. Things with the podcast got. like very busy. I booked a bunch of interviews all of a sudden, and so I was reading a lot, which is very fun. But I have not made a ton of progress on the book because of that. So I think I kind of, I don't know, I was just talking to someone else about this. I might need to switch it to

like that I need to write in the morning, like when I first wake up, because kind of like working out too, like if I just do it in the morning, it'll get done. So I'm kind of, I'm kind of thinking about that. But I've, I've been psyched to have the people on that I had on and I love reading. So I'm not completely too much, but I need to figure out where to fit writing in. Isn't that such a nice feeling when you like get bookmail or you get to read a book before other people do? It's just, I don't know, I feel very cool to get to do that. Yes, it is. It's really fun, honestly. Yeah. For me, it's been good. It's been kind of all over the point.

place. I'm trying to do, this book is my weirdest book so far, and it's kind of a different swing for me than the last two books. Like it has noir roots. It definitely has like crime and thriller in there, but it's also a little more surreal and like I'm thinking of it as like a dark noir fairy tale. And so I'm trying to do some interesting stuff with POV in there. And I, I'm struggling with that. So I, it's going well and yet I also feel like I'm running my head into a wall. But I am committing to doing something in June, which is called the Thousand Words of Summer. Have you heard of this? Ooh, I haven't heard of this one.

So it's this community run by a writer named Jamie Attenborough. And she does it every summer. She does it actually, she does many versions of this throughout the year. But it's in the summer starting June 1st. you commit to writing a thousand words a day for two weeks. So at the end of those two weeks, you have 14,000 words. And so I have been gearing up to do that. I don't know when this will drop, but currently we're at the end of May.

And so for the last couple of weeks, I'm coming out tomorrow. Oh, okay. So perfect. I was like, when in time are we? And you're like now, actually. I'm like, okay. Yeah. Pretty pleasant.

So I'm committing to, for the last couple of weeks to help myself, I have been, jotting down all these different scenes that I have ideas for on note cards. Like everything that I think I know about the scene, what's in the scene, who's in the scene, what I want to happen. Even like if I have like strange details that have popped into my mind about the scene. So just writing them down. So then during this thousand words of summer, I will be able to at least like if I get stuck, if words aren't flowing, I can say like, okay, well I have these scenes.

I know I want to write. So I'm trying to give myself, trying to set myself up for success in that way, trying with with this little project and see how far I can get. Oh my gosh. You're tempting me to want to do this. I'm just saying. Get me back in a good flow and kind of get me to do it in the mornings. I feel like I kind of have podcast as scheduled out.

So it's like I don't necessarily have to read a ton right now. Totally. And even if you like, I mean, the way I'm looking at it is 1,000 words a day is great. If I can do that, that's my goal. But even if I were only to do 500 words a day, that's still 7,000 words at the end of of two weeks, which is a lot, you know? So yeah, it's a win. When I think a lot of mine, a lot, I don't think I know, a lot of my stuff is perfectionism. And I don't know how many times I've heard different variations of like write a bad first draft. Like I think you may have

said it. Possibly. I don't know. I've heard it in so many different places in the last few months. And then I still though, I'm like, but are they a thousand good words? If I did it, a challenge it would just be like just write the words for two weeks so totally you may have might have convinced me to do it ah well i'm always around if you want like we could like check in with each other and do different stuff like that would be um i boy do i know that struggle with you where it's like i think we have talked about this and what always like comes to my mind is like okay they say write a crappy first draft but like they don't mean this crappy there's limits you know that's what it was yeah and it's like no no no

No, there are no limits. However bad it is, that's just, you could always make it better. Nobody is ever going to see that first draft, you know? Yeah. It can be bad. It can be real bad. Right. I think it still feels so mystical to me, too, because I haven't finished one ever.

And so I'm also just like, I think we talked about that a little while ago, I'm in the middle of it. So then it's just like, how many scenes do I need to plan out? And it's like, I probably just need to write the scenes I know I need to write. and then other ideas will probably come up too if I'm just in it. Are you using any sort of plotting framework? Like, Save the Cat or? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Because that at least gives you some. Where I'm like, how many scenes? I know, right? Right? Yeah. Yeah, that can be hard. How many scenes?

Because you, you know, the thing about fun and games, I always try to ask myself, and maybe you're already doing this, but I always try to ask myself, like, if I were picking this book up in a bookstore, what would I be hoping would happen based on the premise? And a lot of those things are what should be in your fun and games. Like the, um, with your book that's about like, like, reality TV stars, like I would hope that the, I would maybe be like, well, maybe the main character goes on to a reality TV set or maybe she's on camera or maybe she has like a boozy brunch with, you know what I mean? Just trying to think of all the like fun premises that would come out of that, that's all like your fun and game stuff.

Yeah. I'm so glad you said that because that's what was bouncing around in my mind last week where I was like, I need to think of my favorite reality tropes and then build in like her getting the information that she wants. Totally. Like scenes where she's like in a, like you were saying a boozy brunch or like getting facials like all of the tropes of reality TV. So I was thinking about it that way.

where I was like, how could I use those tropes to be the like setting for or setting for where she's figuring stuff out. So totally. Which I think it's like, you're like, that's exactly right. I think you're doing like the exact right thing with that. It's just trying to like use those because it's really elegant when you can do multiple things with one scene. Right.

So it's like you're hitting on all the expected tropes, but you're also moving the story forward. So like that's perfect. Like I feel like she needs to get a drink thrown in her face for sure. I think you're right. There definitely needs to be some drunk drinks. Yes. Oh, gosh, those are, those are the iconic scenes. Right? You know what you did. You know what you did at a nightclub. Yeah, totally. Well, you got me, you got my interest piqued. Maybe I'll finally. I mean, if I do it in the morning, I think it would be so much more possible. So I probably need to just do that. I keep waking up earlier, like at 5.30, like, not. on purpose, not trying to be that person who's like, wake up and do stuff. I'm like, good for you. Wow. Teach me. Well, I mean, the problem is I fall asleep before Ted. So it's like he's not like, I'm doing anything too amazing. But I'm like, maybe I need to just like get out of bed and start writing or not. Who was it that I was, it might have been Ryan Holiday possibly was saying,

I can't remember. I don't know. I heard something here recently. Clearly I'm hearing so many things. and just not cataloging where I heard them. But he was saying that like every day he's like, I will write for two hours. And it was Jerry Seinfeld, not Ryan Holiday. And he told himself that even if he doesn't type anything, he just can't do anything else for those two hours. So it's like if he's even just going to stare at one paragraph for two hours

and nothing else comes out, that's fine. But like he can't like get his phone out and start scrolling or whatever. It's like you have to sit here or you can write or you can just sit here. And I was like, it's probably, I feel like if I did that in the morning, that would work. And then I'm not like at the end of the day. I've heard that advice before too. And I do think there's something to it, right? Like eventually you'll get so stir crazy that you're like, well, I might as well right.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Two hours is a long time to do that off the bat. Maybe I need to start trying like 30 minutes. Also, good for Jerry Seinfeld. He's a gazillionaire. Like that makes it a little easier to do that at this point in his life. Yeah.

Yeah. It really is. Well, I kind of have, like, a la my episodes with Gare and Icebreaker a little bit here at the top. So I want to make sure I get her Instagram correct. So Aaron at Thriller Mama Books, it's Thriller and then M-A-M-A books, if anyone wants to go follow her. She was saying she listens to the podcast and she notices that, like, for her, especially the books she says, saves or like what stands out to her are buzzwords that like are the words they get her excited about a book. And so her example was that her interest is really piqued if she hears the word

cult. And I was like, that's a good one because I definitely am too. I'm with you on that one. But she was like, that might be a fun thing to do on a podcast. And I was like, that's kind of a perfect like icebreaker top of the episode thing. So do you have buzzwords that? for you, you're like automatically add to the TBR. Yeah, for sure. Mine definitely has reality TV in it. Revenge would be another one that's pretty much going to get me sucked in. What else?

Anytime someone's like taking down a large system, which is not a buzzword, now I'm getting into big words, but churches especially, like, I'm sucked in with that buzzword as well. I love that. Yeah, that's a good one. Colts for me, for sure. And like sometimes with buzzwords, it's like it gets my foot in the door. It's not necessarily like I'm going to read it,

but I'll pick it up off the shelf, right? Like, and that's cults because I feel like sometimes culty stuff doesn't always hit me, but like for sure, that's one. I like a good caper. I like a heist. Those are words that excite. me because I like when it's crimey but the stakes aren't necessarily um protagonist in peril um

you know when somebody can do something really strong without that I like that um I like female rage I'm gonna pick it up yes yes for sure that's the one I was looking for yeah revenge too in there too, but like female rage specifically. Yeah. Just like, is she eating somebody? Let's go. Like, I'll do it. Right now, I'm also like, maybe this is part of, because of I'm trying to do something

a little bit different with my third book, but like things that are more surreal or women in sports too, actually is one that I'll pick up. Less, not to denigrate these books, I just haven't read a bunch of them because it isn't exactly my cup of tea, less like the romances around women in sports and more like Carrie Soto is Back or Lane Fargo's the favorites that's coming out next year. There's also one, I know we have another topic we're going to get into, but I'll preview this a little bit. There's this book, We Write Upon Sticks by Kwan Berry, which is about a girls hockey team that goes from being a losing team to a winning team by committing dark magic in the name of

Emilio Estevez. And like, that's not a buzzword because you can't distill it into one word, but a premise that's something like that, I'm like, yes, the same with like yellow jackets on TV, right? Like, girls sports, darkness, I'm in. Like those things together, I'm like, let's go. which also is challengers. I know we've talked about challengers, but like, I'll continue to talk about challengers, anything. Me too.

Yeah. Yeah. So those are kind of my ones right now. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. I'm, what was the other one that I've been? I don't know.

I've been more into like, almost like Erie, which is still not quite. But I've read The Hunter's Daughter here recently. And then these were both. recommendations from Pierre, the hunter's daughter, and the man on the train I just finished today. And they're both, they have this like, eerie suspense underneath them, just the whole time. Like, things just feel dark and off, basically, the whole time. And the man on the train was, like, it's even in the description and her acknowledgments that she loves Hitchcockian thrillers. So it's also probably that buzzword actually so like hitchcockian's like i love it i am glued to the pages on some of those

like darker really suspenseful ones lately i agree hitchcockian would definitely do it for me because there's this sort of um psychological aspect to that i always like there's like a sort of elegance around it too there you know it's like a little um somehow like i don't know i don't know the word I was thinking of is icy, which I'm probably getting from Hitchcock's icy blondes, but like, I don't know. That's definitely one that'll do it for me, Hitchcockian. Yeah. Or like oftentimes, and I know this is not quite what Thriller Mama suggested, which I do love that idea,

but like also just vibes. You know what I mean? Like I started reading or I started watching a TV show that's about the Yorkshire Ripper in England, like notorious serial killer from the north of England to, committed these like really deep atrocities and then I started like craving like books written in London and like the 1960s 70s 80s and so it's like sometimes I'll like fall into a vibe and so I'm just like looking for something that fits that vibe so those can become buzzwords too yeah I have to quickly plug something then just because you said

like notorious serial killer in London so I had an author on the podcast a couple once ago for a book called the Nightside. And she wrote under the name M.M. Deluca for that. But she actually sent me a copy of this book. I just haven't read it yet. But when she was writing under her name Marjorie DeLuca, she has a book called The Savage Instinct. And it's like, it's about the, it's related to the imprisonment of Marianne Cotton, who is England's first female serial killer.

Yes, I am aware of Mary Ann Cotton. Yes. Yeah. So she has like a book where I remember she said the authors, mom's, grandma or her grandma. I can't remember how many generations back it had to be lived around the corner from Marianne Cotton. So or Marianne Cotton, yeah, that's right. Yeah. And so she was like super intrigued by it. So then she like writes a book with someone about a character who. basically she gets really fascinated with Marianne Cotton's case and yeah I can't I'm trying to sum it up really quickly but it's like it's it's called a historical fiction thriller and I don't always do historical fiction but she told me about it and I was like you have me intrigued I'm very intrigued the savage instinct you said okay I just wrote that savage instinct okay yeah so I I need to get to it

I'm glad you mentioned that because I was like, oh yeah, I have that one too. Yeah, totally. Not just all my Net Galley book. Oh, neck alley. Yeah. So yeah, you might like that one too. Oh, yeah, I'm sure. I was.

I'm watching anything lately. So I've been watching, I started watching the, it's called The Long Shadow, and it's about the Yorkshire Ripper, who's in, I think, north of England, outside London. But it's like, it's a really interesting, I mean, the TV show, was good. I watched a documentary about this before too and like really law enforcement screwed it up. Like he was allowed to commit a lot more murders than he should have been because they didn't follow the right leads and all this different stuff. And I think the show does a good job of showing that partially because a lot of the women were involved in sex work. Like it was also a depression in England and so a lot of the women who were involved in sex work were doing

so they you know it like increased the number of sex workers out there and um basically the cops were kind of like they had it come in so they weren't taking it perhaps as seriously and it like it does a really good job of showing like that that's the culture that these women are living in when yeah so that's it's good it's a heavy watch but it's good um i've also been watching the jinx season two are you did you watch that i haven't no i haven't okay so did you watch the jinks season one No. Okay, so the Jinks documentary series that came out, I want to say, 2015, where the filmmaker Andrew Jurecki was working with Robert Durst, who definitely murdered three people.

And it would take like a lifetime of armchair analyzing why he agreed to participate in a documentary that's about his murders, but he does. And like infamously, they wind up finding this really insane. piece of evidence in the first season where they can match the note that somebody sent to the police alerting them to where one of the bodies were to his handwriting and then they catch him on audio saying killed them all of course is like the infamous line that he goes to the bathroom and it's like talking himself in the mirror and says killed them all of course so that came out and I want to

say 2015 and there's a lot more there's like that's been out so long that they There's like theories upon theories about different stuff in there and go into the audio was a little bit manipulated. He did say it, but blah, blah, blah. Anyway, so season two comes out and it's about the trial. And it has some of the wildest characters who are real life people that I have ever seen captured on camera like this guy. And it really is this kind of crazy study and like how much you can get away with when you're rich. that like all of his friends had to know on some level that he killed these three people, one of whom was his first wife.

And kind of don't care because he's buying them Lexuses or can kind of like rationalize it in their mind. It's a wild run. Highly recommend. It's some great. Yeah. I know you're not, you don't love the true crime documentaries as much, if I recall. Not as much, but yeah. I do every now and then.

The first season is worth a watch because it's just so crazy. Like, it's so crazy that this guy would agree to do this. And then the second season is, um, really kind of focuses more on the culpability of the people around him as well as the trial. And so it's not necessarily super gory or violent. It just is kind of, you're like, these people exist. You know, like it's really weird. It's really crazy. So I've been really loving that.

Yeah. What about you? What are you watching? I haven't been watching a ton. We went and saw Furiosa Mad Max. It's, I don't want to like say it's, okay, it's not the first. It's not like Fury Road, basically, I guess. So, and I guess like my main critique is just that it could have been shorter.

Like it didn't necessarily need to be two and a half hours. I'm not against movie being that long either. Like, I'm not one of those people that just like hates that idea. but I think it could have been shorter, but it's still so fun to see in the movie theater is still what I would say. The visuals are like so cool, just like, oh, am I frozen?

Well, it might be. There were you're back. Yeah, the visuals are amazing. Like the scenes where there is the, what is it called? It's not war driving. Oh, yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about. what they call it. Totally. But like the scenes where they're fighting in vehicles are like wild and

awesome and crazy. But it's it is just like very different. It's also like more of a, it's not saga because saga necessarily. I mean, it starts when Furios is like very young, like six or seven. And then follows her probably into her early 20s. So it is more of like a hero's journey, I guess is kind of some of what it is. Totally. But it was still really fun. It's just, I think after seeing all these other movies where I was like, this was perfection.

Totally, totally. I was like, okay, well, it was still fun. And I think it's still worth seeing in theater. So I'm not saying that it wasn't good. It's just, it's different, which he, I know the director always wants the movies to be very different. So they just were, I guess. Yeah.

Okay. Good to know. I yeah, I definitely want to see it. I really loved Fury Road, which like, I'm going to be a lame millennial and say that that was actually my introduction to the Mad Mac saga. Like I knew of it, but I hadn't watched it. And then they put Tom Hardy in it and I was like, well, obviously,

I'm going to go see it. But like, the, right? Like, yeah, we'll go. I'm good. And I really loved it. And so I do want to see Furiosa, but it's always, hard to capture lightning in a bottle twice, you know. So yeah. Yeah. And I mean, part of what made it Fury Road too cool too, which Tyler pointed out after we got out of the theater and I was like,

oh yeah, I didn't think of that. There were like music scenes with like there. There's like none of that. So like that was another really cool trademark of Fury Road and that's not in Furiosa. So they just they just are very different books movies but it is also a tale of revenge and you know i'm a sucker for that so totally i was down with and ania taylor joy is great like i'm there to see it for sure she's amazing yeah yeah she's great my dogs even think so yeah they're piping up they're like you didn't take this but i think it was good exactly amazing yeah Well, we talked about talking a little bit about some outlier books. Actually, we talked about at the end of our last podcast we did together.

And when I started looking through mine, it made me realize, which I know this about myself, I don't, I'm still a pretty narrow path of books that I read. So I feel like you're going to have some even like, I don't know, cooler or more outlier-e. than me, but it'll, these aren't like textbook thrillers, the ones that I came up with. That was like the best I could review. I can't wait to hear yours. I'm excited

about them. I do have, I picked some, some ones that kind of go in different directions. I had the opposite experience. I was looking at my bookshelves and going like, yeah, I tend to read all over the place. Like, I do read probably more crime mystery thrillers than anything

else, particularly now because I'm like trying to, you know, make sure I'm up to date on my industry, but like, I was picking out stuff and I was like, oh yeah, that one. I loved that book and like this one. And yeah. Yeah. It is cool when you like relook over what you've read. Totally. I love that. Do you have a system for shelving? Like do you shelve like ones you've read separately than or like how do you? Well, I use good reads and so that's where all of my red are. And otherwise everything is digital for me. So. Got it.

There's no physical shelving, but I have my red shelf on Goodreads. How about you? That's perfect. Yeah, I definitely keep up on Goodreads. And then I'm trying to do a thing where I, like, have a shelf in my bedroom that's only books that I haven't read. So once I pick one out, then I, like, take one from these shelves that I haven't read and I add it so that eventually these shelves will always just be the books that I've already

read. Nice. Maybe. Eventually, I'll get to that one day, but probably not. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know of any of us will. Totally.

It's on your as long. Never ending, too. Never ending. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can talk about my first one. Yeah, let's do it.

Cool. So this one I actually kind of talked about at the end of the last episode, which was what kind of made us think about outliers, but it's made for love by Alyssa Nutting. Definitely the most outliery. book that I've read. It is just so super unique, but I loved it so much. So it's about a girl, woman. I think she's in her 20s, a woman named Hazel, who basically moves in with her father, who lives in a trailer park, with his extremely life-like sex doll that he has a relationship with. Like he loves her.

But she's basically having to live with him because she just, quote unquote, escaped her marriage to the head of Google, not very thinly veiled, large tech company like Google, because he was basically demanding that they would like wirelessly connect their brains so that he could always know like what she was feeling and thinking. I don't know if it's just all thinking, but feeling for sure. And she's like, I don't know that I think that's the best idea. So she escapes and is living with her dad,

and you kind of learn what led her to marrying Byron, what her marriage was like as she is trying to stay away from him because he's still coming after her. But then there's also, like, I don't see it in the synopsis, so I'm struggling to put it all together without giving spoilers, but there is also some random stuff, like a character who falls in love with the dolphin. Yes.

Because they can communicate with that same mind-mail technology, I think. And it's just very unique, and it's very satirical, and has a lot of commentary on our relationship with technology and where it's headed. And it was just, like, very quirky and fun. And there's a TV series, and the TV series is so good, and I wish there were more seasons. I know.

I love that book, too. I think Alyssa Nudding goes so hard, and I love her as a writer. She, like, does really out-of-the-box things. Have you read Tampa by her? No, I haven't. Okay. Tampa is a very divisive book for good reason. Yeah.

Yeah, it's about a female pedophile who becomes a teacher to, like, feed her desires. I loved it, which is a vulnerable thing to say about that type of book. Like, I really appreciate that she took a concept and was like, I'm going all in. And she's commenting on how we treat people in the media, like, how we treat, like, women who do this in the media versus men and, like, that she's this pretty woman. So people are like, oh, how exciting for the boy. And you're like, no. Like, but she, I love, she takes big risks.

And I felt like Made for Love is very much the same. And I really love that and admire that as a writer. I know. I do want to read it because I'm sure she does it in such. a cool way because it's even about it was a teacher in Tampa right yeah it was somebody she went to high school with that it was somebody she went to high school yeah and so she was like was kind of like like what do I do with knowing this and like having known this person I don't know that they were close I think it's possible this person was a couple years behind her in school but like she yeah so

it's interesting ooh yeah it's on Kindle Unlimited now There you go. Because it got banned everywhere else. I don't laugh at that, but. I know. She's very cool. She is. She's really, she's rad. I think she lives in L.A. too. I'm like always low-key hoping all run into her. Not that I, I mean, I actually think I might recognize her, but I don't know.

Yeah. I would love to see her at something. Yeah. Yeah. I know. It would be cool. It would be cool. okay my first one that I grabbed is heating and cooling by Beth Ann Fennelly it is the subtitle is 52 micromanuars Beth Ann Fennelly is a poet I actually think she's like the poet laureate of Mississippi is what it is she's the poet laureate of Mississippi and she so this book is just full of some of it is like flash like some of it is that long some of it is like three pages long and it's just the here's one one is I'll read this one because it's so short the title of it is longer than the thing returning from spring break

comma junior year at Notre Dame that's the title of this segment and the the whole part of the segment is swapped the rosary on my bedpost for Marty Girl beads which I think is just so like funny and she's just so funny and sharp and poignant I've read this book a couple of times because it's so you can read it in a day and I love it. I think what she does with language is just like vibrant and shocking and amazing. That is so cool. Some people really can just distill something.

Yes. Into like just a few words. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. She's got a real talent for that. Yeah. I love that.

Yeah. You're going to, you and I follow Mandy McHugh. She shares poetry. You and Mandy are going to slowly get me in. It's more poetry. I am, I'm not a great, I don't read all poetry. I should. Yeah.

But like the ones that really connect with me, like Bethann Fennelie is like, she's just, yeah. She's, she's great. Yeah. It sounds like it. Yeah. Well, I do not have a segue from that. Okay.

But this was an outlier for me just because it was YA and I just don't typically read YA. but Ace of Spades by Farida Abike Iemide and I apologize if I pronounce that incorrectly is so good, it's very dark which is probably why it like didn't totally feel like YAA to me but it's about two students at a prep school and they are the only black students I believe

if not just one of very or two of very few I think they're the only ones, though. And it's Devon and Shiamaka. And basically, someone named Ace is texting everyone in the school with secrets, shady secrets about people. Very gossip girl, but, like, more devious, the things that they're sharing. and so it's basically for Devon and Shyamaka, the secrets that are coming out about them are like making their chances of getting into the colleges they want

not look very high anymore. And they're not necessarily friends either. They're very separate people. So basically both of them are trying to figure out who is sending the text messages, why they're doing it, and how to stop them. And it is like, it's so emotional. It's heartbreaking and multiple times.

And the ending is like such a like explosive climax of an ending. Okay. It's very, very, very good. You sold me. That sounds great. Yeah. She's very talented. And I know she wrote this.

I know it took her while in her acknowledgement. She talks about how long it took her to write it because so much of it was about her experience being in wealthy. I think it was more when she was in college, but wealthy academic circles where she was one of few black people in those circles, so it's very emotional, but very good. Okay, that's going on my list. That sounds great.

Yeah, it is. And it's creepy, like thinking of someone like taking pictures of like you and your life where you're like, I didn't know anyone was around me then. Oh, yeah, that's super creepy. What a nightmare. Yeah, totally. I mean, I'm always in my house, but I live the more interesting life. People might catch me.

I get it. I mean, somebody could also be taking pictures of you in your house. That's creepy. That's true. Oh, yeah, that's even creepier. Yeah. Not to instill that fear. I know.

I'm like, I'm not going to sleep tonight now. Right. That's a great one. I don't have a great segue from that either, but I will share. So the next one I have is a book that I actually think I'm due to reread. And, God, this poor cover, this book has been through a lot with me. So it doesn't look great. That's cool, though.

Yeah, it's Mr. Fox by Helen Oya-Yemi, who, she's a British author. And she does kind of these speculative, literary, often kind of like fractured fairy tale type stuff. She has a devastating personal history, which is to say, I think there's actually like devastating things in her stuff. But like for me, her first book she wrote when she was 18 years old, like in between finals. Like that's like the story is she was like, oh, she had downtime in between finals. So she wrote her first book. And I'm like, cool. Okay.

All right. So you're just a genius. Got it. Yeah. So Mr. Fox is a retelling of the blue beard myth of the like man who marries multiple women and keeps killing. them. But it's this really interesting way where it's like Mr. Fox is a writer and he's married to a woman and he keeps killing all of his female protagonists until one of like his muse and like one of the women on the page like come alive and are like, hey, stop it. And so it becomes this kind of like

fairy tale that's this like intertextual thing where it's like he's a writer speaking to his creation and we're reading it and it goes into his history and it's it's really well done and she's just like legitimately a genius and sometimes I come out of her books and I'm like I'm not sure I know what happened but I know I enjoyed it and like she yeah yeah this is this is what I need to reread I really I really love this book that is such a I like that concept yeah very uh unique like your character coming out into the real world to talk to you totally totally It's really cool. Have you read, that makes me think of it. I should have grabbed this book, but did you ever read the Thursday Next series? Mm-mm.

Okay, it's by Jasper Ford and it's F-F-F-O-R-D-E. And these books came out, I want to say maybe the early aughts. And Thursday Next is his creation. She is a literary detective. So, like, she lives in a world in which books are things that can be entered and altered. And so I think the first book is like, she has to go into pride and prejudice and like, I might be getting this wrong. I'm sure I am. But like, as I remember, it's something like Elizabeth Bennett is refusing to marry Mr. Darcy. And she has to like go into the book and figure out what's gone wrong and set it right. So it's like a very interesting thriller, but like sci-fi, but also just kind of like bookish.

Those books are great. Yes. Love them. That is such the air. affair is the air affair yes yes okay so i'm wrong so it's jane air i think it's refusing yeah yeah that is such a creative idea yeah like especially for everyone who has read all of like lots of the classic books totally that is such a cool idea i love that yeah so those are those are great too so sorry i had to sneak another one in because i kind of forgot about that until i was talking about mr fox that is very cool that is very

Yeah. I know. Now I'm intrigued by these for sure. Oh my gosh. Pride and Prejudice, though. I know. So sweet. Yeah.

So sweet. Well, my next one is an outlier for me because it is historical fiction as well, which is funny since I really had a historical fiction plug earlier. Yeah. But it's not what I typically read. Just for all kinds of reasons. but the last night at the Hollywood Canteen by Sarah James came out in 2023. I want to read this one. Yeah, the cover is really cool.

It is. I love the cover. And it is, it's about a, she's a screenwriter named Annie, who basically her, she in, I can't remember, is it in New York. I think it is. She used to write specifically. for these two, this actor and actress. And so, like, they were all kind of, like, a trio that wrote and performed. And basically, the actor and the actress get roles in a movie in L.A.

And they move, and she's like, like, what am I going to do? And so then she gets, she gets pulled into the Hollywood scene as well. and she starts spending time at this place called the Hollywood Canteen, which is where a lot of the stars and servicemen, this is 1943, they all go and hang out at night. So when she is there, I'm trying to make sure I don't give away any spoilers. Basically someone, oh, a film critic is found dead in the canteen kitchen. So yeah, that is like in the synopsis.

Got it. So a really famous film critic is killed there. And she, so Annie starts to think like, who are these new people I've been spending my time with? Because there's probably someone here who killed her. And so she goes from writing murder plays or whatever to solving one in real life with this like group of friends that were friends with Fiona, the critic who died. And they call themselves the ambassadors club because they're so cool. I love that.

And so she makes friends with them and they tried to solve what happened to their friends. And it is the dialogue is really fun. I think sometimes that's what keeps me, like it makes it harder for me to enjoy historical fiction sometimes. But like the dialogue's very fun. The characters are super fun. And there are other murders. I don't feel like that is really.

really a spoiler. So it has like some of the really fun mystery thriller pacing that I love, but it's in 1943. Love that. Love that. I remember that cover. It is a really cool cover. And like, you know, anything old Hollywood is so at my alley. I need to pick that up. I know. That's so good. Yeah. That's probably another buzzword for me then. Hollywood. Yeah. Actually, you're right. Same here. Old Hollywood. I'm like, let's do it, you know? Or even just Hollywood. Yeah. That book, Where'd You Go? Where Are You Echo Blue is coming out. And I am so excited about that by Haley Kreischer about like the missing child star. I can't wait to read it. Yes. The cover is so cool on that one too. It's so cool. Yeah, for sure. Okay, my next one is one of my all-time faves.

If I could write like anyone in the world, I would probably try to write like Kelly Link, but my brain does not work like this. Get in Trouble by Kelly Link. This is a collection of short stories, which are also often not my jam. Because I have a relationship with short stories sometimes where I'm like, I have a lot of collections of them I love,

but like sometimes I feel both like I can't get invested in it the way that I would get invested in a novel and then also like on the flip side it ends. And I'm like, oh, it's over and I'm not going to see these people, you know um yeah kelly Kelly Link is perfect and uh this is just an just such an odd collection of amazing stories with weird setups everything ranging from like somebody who's the like house sitter for a group of fairies who have gone away on a summer vacation to the second story in the

collection is called I can see right through you and it's oh doggy um And it's about these two actors who are kind of like essentially a Robert Pattinson, Kristen Stewart, stand in. Like when they were young adults, they were in a film like Twilight and they were like in love and it was very public and then they broke up. And so this is like years later, she has become a ghost hunter and has like moved to Florida and hunts ghosts with a television show. And he's had like a big scandal. and so he goes down to visit her and gets caught up in like a ghost hunt this one night. She just does these kind of like,

like so even the way that I'm telling these stories, like that's a plot you can follow. But then what happens in them is almost this sort of alchemy where it doesn't always make logical sense, but the end of the story makes deep emotional sense if that was like a way to, like you come out of it and you're sort of like, well, there might be things, hanging, but all of it feels emotionally resolved. And she's just so good. This book was

shortlisted for the Pulitzer Prize. That's how good it was. And she's just like, yeah, I can't, like, if I could put this book into everyone's hands, I would. It really is, like, it's a, it slaps, as the kids say. That, the kids do say. They do say it. So my next one, I am probably as much of a fan of hers as you were of your last author. Did You Hear About Kitty Carr by Crystal Smith Paul? Yes. Have you read it? I haven't actually, but I have it and I'm excited to read it.

Yeah, the cover is so cool. But this one I heard about because I signed up for my true outlier, like author, Taylor Jenkins Reed, who is the only author I'm so thoroughly obsessed with outside of the thriller genre. So I was on her, or I am on her email list and she was promoting, she was like talking about this book as one to pay attention to and how it's kind of similar to Evelyn Hugo. It definitely is. And so I like requested it on that galley immediately and I got it that day and I'm so excited. So it, now I have hiccups. Oh no. Sorry guys. it is a multi-generational saga that deals with old Hollywood our favorite buzzwords of this episode

and so it follows the story of kitty car who is a white icon of the silver screen and she dies in present day like i'm assuming it's 2020 something and basically in her will writes all of it to the St. John's sisters who are three young, wealthy black women who are kind of her neighbors, basically.

But basically everyone's like, where did that come from? So we follow Elise St. John, who's one of those sisters, and she's going through everything in Kitty's house

and learning more about her. She's trying to figure out what happened and at the same time we start following the story of another family way back in time and how this family's story intersects with both Elise and Kitty. So there's like so much more I want to say about it but it is one of those ones where like just like how Evelyn Hugo is kind of paced like a thriller which is something I've talked about. you have all these questions about why did she marry seven men and like

just like all the questions that you have and then you're going back in time and getting answers it's a lot like that where you're like how is this connected how is this connected so it feels like a thriller as you're learning about both kitty and Elise St. John and it is just so good

it's very moving very emotional and has old Hollywood and just brings up a lot of questions. I really can't say, I want to say more, but I really can't. Totally.

But it's fantastic. I got to read it, and then you and I can have like an offline conversation about it. Yes. Yes. And I interviewed her too, so that's out there

for anyone who has read it. Or just wants to hear more about it before they read it. So it's very good. When you read it, we can definitely have a long discussion about it because there's so much to talk about. Okay.

I can't wait. I'm excited. Yeah. That's so up my alley. It's like, okay, that's moving up my list. Yes. Okay, I have another one that for somebody who is like, I don't love short stories. I have brought out a lot of things.

I guess that's why it's an outliers. This, how to, right? How to be eaten by Maria Edelman is a essentially, interconnected version of short stories and they are all fairy tale retelling. So the like meta plot is like what if the heroines of fairy tales went to like a therapy support group to deal with like the trauma of what's happened to them. But it's also really updated. So so within that you have this story of and it does deal with reality TV which is like actually incredible the way that they thread it through here. Yeah. So, so they have these narrative about the support groups and everyone tells their

different stories. So the, the, one of the early ones is about Bluebeard, except the Bluebeard character is like an Elon Musk character, like, you know, wealthier tech guy, has all these things, basically has a house that's like engineered to kill the women who live in it. And so it's somebody who's like dealing with the fact that like that happened to her. And then there's another one, the one who's kind of like probably like the Cinderella story is a woman who wound up marrying the man who created this like really famous franchise like The Bachelor. And so like he's created The Bachelor and she's married to him. So she's kind of like queen of Bachelor Nation.

And then there's somebody else who like was one of the winners of the of the Bachelor franchise. But her story is kind of like a Sleeping Beauty story. Like, there's all, it's just, it's so good and so funny and well done. Yeah, it's, I would highly recommend it. I wound up reviewing this book last year for Ms. Magazine or two years ago, actually. And I really, I loved it. I really loved it.

Like, it's, it's really unique. It's fun. It just feels like a book. I always love it when you can read a book. And who knows if this is the reality behind the experience, but it feels like the author was having a lot of fun writing. and that's what this feels like. She brings up weighty questions of misogyny and complicity and different stuff.

But like, it's just really fun. It's a really fun book. Yes. Yeah. So speaking of books where it feels like the author had a lot of fun and definitely covers misogyny. Sure. You interviewed her for your too many tabs and I just, it's not out yet at this time that

you guys would be listening to it. But Lori Brand's Bodies to Die for. Yes. I can tell how much he was having writing that book. Totally. Totally. So fun. So incredibly fun. Have you read it too? I did. I got to blurb it actually. So I got to read it early. And it was great. Yeah. It's so good. Like that was how I felt reading that whole book. And then getting to talk to her. I probably could have talked to her for like two or three hours, honestly. Like totally. She's so great. And like, such an interest. I'm sorry, go ahead. the first death I was like the way that it happens is so incredible for a fitness world thriller

and I was like she was just having fun with this totally and you can feel that and I loved that like we're in this world of female bodybuilding that I like did not know anything about and getting this inside look at it like it is definitely fun and unique and I love it takes on diet culture in a very direct way like I'm into it yes yeah Yes, and it is, there is no fat shaming. There is no skinny shaming. There's no shaming. There's no shaming in this book.

Steph and I were talking about, like, both of us feel like this need to tell everyone. Like, if you think the book is this way, it's not. Like, it could not be a more overall positive book to read while also being like a really classically fun thriller. Totally. Totally. That's my blurb about bodies to die for. But this, how to be eaten sounds so unique.

you have so many unique books. That's what I love hearing all of the unique ones you've write. But this one is short stories too? It's kind of both. Or is it kind of like, person's respectful. Yeah, that's what it is. So it's like, so you've got this like, um, metanarrative going through of all of them coming to the support group and it's run by a man and you're kind of like, what's going on with him? And then they all start kind of like, within that support group, they're like, okay, who wants to tell their story first? And so then you get into like every person gets to tell their story individually. So those are kind of like almost short stories within it, but you're also kind of trying to understand, like,

who is this man who's brought them together, to what end? There start to be similarities. Like, you'll start to see certain people that pop up in different people's stories, and you're like, oh, I know who that is. And so you're kind of piecing together this larger narrative as you're, as you're doing it. So it gets to be kind of both. It gets to be both, like, short stories, but also a novel. And it's just a lot of fun.

Highly recommend. That is so cool. Yeah. I am adding it to my list. still fighting my hiccups. Yeah. Oh, no. I would try to scare you if I were there in person, but the best, can I tell you the best time I ever scared hiccups out of a friend? Yes. Okay. If this is too much of a weird detour for the podcast, no, we don't need to keep it in. But so my, my best friend, Tara, we became friends because we were assigned to live together in

college. And I just got extremely lucky that, like, I got assigned to live with somebody who's, like, so amazing. And so I had a college boyfriend and we were living to, I wasn't living with the college boyfriend. I was living with Tara and she had this bad batch of hiccups and just could not get rid of him. And finally I was like, I got to talk to you about something. And she was like, I think I'm pregnant and like, I haven't told my boyfriend yet. I don't know what I'm going to do. And she was just like, oh my God, really? Like, what are you thinking? How are you feeling? And like, so I was like, I don't know. I'm just like, I'm really worried. Da-da-da-da. And then she's like, oh my god, Hallie, are you serious?

And I was like, no, but your hiccups are gone. And she just, like, almost started crying. She was like, what? And I was like, you can only do it once, but that one time was super effective. I know, I know. And I feel like now I'm in my 30. Like, no one would be scared if I'd totally. They were like, yeah, it's different when you're like 20, you know?

Like, yeah. He's like, congratulations. And I'd be like, no. Yeah. You're like, no, I was trying to scare you. I was not being serious. Totally. I love that.

It was good. She was so just like, oh, my God, what? Like, I thought we were. And I was like, yeah, no, I'm, everything's good. But your hiccups are gone, so that's good. Maybe the laughter worked because I'm not hiccuping anymore. So maybe the story worked. The story got two.

The story got two. Yeah. It's two for two. Yes. Mixing hiccups. Undefeated. I mean, I am, I think I'm, I think they're gone. I'll take that win.

That's rad. Well, look at us. We've created a new pickups cure. I know. Solving hiccups. Yeah. Not in time for poor Meredith Gray's mother, RIP, but. Oh, I haven't watched that show forever.

I know me either. I can't believe it's still on. I know. It's kind of crazy. But, I mean, keep doing it if you can. Totally. Are you a Bridgeton person? I'm not, but I know.

everyone's going crazy for it. Yes, I am a Bridgeton person with the caveat that I'm not, like, obsessed with the show. But I do, but like as soon as it was out, I did watch it. You know what I mean? I was like, I mean, it's here. So I'm going to watch it. And so, yeah, I enjoyed it a lot. And TikTok has been serving me, like, a lot of slutty Bridgeton content since.

That's what I've been getting. Like, even though I don't watch it, I've seen all the sluggiest clips. Totally. And you're just like, all right, thanks. You know. it's a Wednesday at 10 a.m. But thank you. Yeah.

Yeah. Totally. Well, my last one, you actually talked about earlier, and I just talked about Taylor Jenkins Reed, but Carrie Soto's back is probably totally an outlier for me and that I've never read, never read sports fiction. I don't think I have. And it's not a thriller, but I trust Taylor Jenkins read so much that I was like, I bet I'm still going to like it.

And I mean, a lot of the story is in the title, but basically, Carrie Soto was really, a really, really, really successful tennis star in her teens, early 20s. I can't remember how many years it's been. 10 or so. But basically, she decides that she wants to come back and basically, basically, try to win. Is it the Grand Slam? Is she trying to win all of it,

or is she just trying to win one? I can't remember. She basically wants to come back to tennis, though. And so it's really chronicling a couple things. She was known for how cold and calculating she was on the court. So there's a lot of commentary, which is common to Taylor Jenkins read, about women in fame and the way that everyone else talks about. them. So there's that going on, as well as her journey of training again with her father,

who was her trainer and coach when she got really successful. And then he's also helping her as she comes back to the sport. So it's also about their very complex relationship as well. But I sobbed at the end of that book, too. It's one of few. And I think it's all. only Taylor Jenkins read that has made me like cry, cry in a book. And it's all of them. But that one, I was crying so hard at the end. It's very emotionally. The emotional development is amazing as well as like the external plot being so fun. So I really liked it. Some people said that it still felt like there was too much tennis in it. And I'm like, I mean, that was kind of the point, but I didn't feel like it was like overly like just watching a tennis match in each chapter.

Like it doesn't necessarily feel that way. So it's good. It's good and it's worth it. And I love Carrie Soto. Totally. I actually feel the same. It might actually be my favorite Taylor Jenkins readbook, which I feel like is blasphemy. Yeah, given like Evelyn Hugo and Daisy Jones and all of which I loved. I've loved all of her books that I've loved. I've loved all of her books that I've read. I haven't read. The ones that I haven't read are her early ones. Like one true loves. I was going to ask. I haven't either. Yeah, I haven't read those, but I read her successive ones Malibu Rising. And I think Carrie Jones is, or Carrie Soto is my favorite. And I actually felt like she pulled off the tennis masterfully where it's like, that's what the whole book is

about, but it doesn't feel. It's also like tennis is her relationship to herself and her relationship to her dad and this burgeoning relationship she has with this man whose name I forget. And like, it just is, I thought it was so well done. And I thought like on a technical level, to me, that's her, my favorite, like her writing in that book is my favorite too, I think. Like the way that she's able to like immerse us. Like the same way, you know, like you come out of challengers feeling like somehow you're juiced up like you just played a tennis match. I felt that way with Carrie Soto too, you know, like, yeah, you know. Yes. Yeah, I did too. I was invested in that book.

It's really good. Bo Huntley is her love interest. Yes. Yeah, I had to pull it up. I was like, I'm missing so many names. Totally. And he, that was great. All of it was great.

And I loved Carrie Soto as a character, too. She's rough around the edges and ambitious and ruthless and all the things we don't like our female characters to be. And I loved her. Exactly. Exactly. Tennis. I'm a lot of his fan. I know.

I don't love like. it in real life, but I guess in media, I'm like, yes, let's do it. Yes, me too. Yeah. Yeah, I can't remember the last time I watched a tennis match. No. And it's, I've actually, like, I've enjoyed it, but like, yeah, it's not, um, yeah, I played golf growing up. So, you know, obviously the sport everybody loves. Um, but like weirdly, I felt like golf and tennis are kind of in competition in this weird sort of like country club way. And so I was always more about the golf than tennis. I mean, both have many problems built into their structures, but like, yeah. I tried to golf and I just, I don't have finesse. It was like, it was like, don't use your

brute strength and I'm just like, like smacking the ground over and over and over again. It is. I just could not figure it out. It's, it's a golf is, I mean, golf some, like, you're playing, against yourself. You're out there, like when I was playing, I played on my college team and like, you're out there for six hours trying not to like, like, lose your shit. Like, you know, like that's the whole goal is like, don't absolutely collapse mentally. Like, and it's, I did a lot of times, you know, it's really, it's interesting. I, I keep threatening my agent that I'm going to write a golf thriller one day and she's like, literally no one wants that. And I'm like, I want it. I want it. There's so much you could do like psychologically with it.

So yes. One day maybe. Yeah. I think it's, I think those are that that's the other thing it has in common with tennis though too is like golf is even more. It's you against yourself. But like tennis you get in your head after your first serve, you could be fucked. Totally.

You don't have a team to help you. It's like, I feel like both of those. It's the psychological part would be good for thrillers. I agree. I agree for it. Good. Thank you. Then I will be like, Sharon, Kate wants it. I have to write it. You're like, book wild wants it. Exactly. Come on.

Yeah, totally. Like the way you're playing against yourself mentally. And with golf, too, like, I used to do things to psych other girls out that's like not the nicest self I've ever been. But like it's, it was interesting. You know, like there's one day I'll write it is what I'm telling you. One day it'll happen. Yes. Also, before I forget, have we talked? yet about how not only is challengers like a tennis match in its structure, it also starts with love and ends with them at 40.

They're 40 at the end. How did I not catch that? That's so smart. And it ends in their 40s. And I was like, oh, my God. I didn't even think of that. That's crazy. Oh, my God.

Well done. I told me. Yeah. I know. So I saw it in theaters a second time and I was struck by all. You should. It's so worth it because like there's all these little things that I didn't catch the first time.

Like the. Yeah. At one point, Josh O'Connor, like when they've, when you first see them when they're young, he's talking about like anybody who wins juniors goes on and doesn't have a career. And then like which winds up being true for a couple of people in the thing. And then there's also they talk about. in that infamous hotel room scene they talk about that girl that they liked and that like she got hurt and never played tennis again and you're like foreshadow you know so it's just so there the writer just built in a lot of really clever little like mirror parallel pieces within it that I thought was like oh well done well gosh yeah I know well and in that scene her leaning back and watching them is exactly like her watching them play tennis at the end Totally.

Totally. And in like that moment, I saw somebody on TikTok say it, and I really think it's true, that moment is the movie. It's like she's like pitting them against each other. She wants to watch good tennis. She wants to watch some good fucking tennis. Yeah. Whether that's actual tennis or emotional tennis, like, yeah, it's so good.

Yeah. Yes. I'm going to have to see if it's still in theaters. Maybe I will go see it again. Do it. I'm not against it. Yeah. I have one more book, too.

Should I share? Cool. Okay. Yeah. So this one is called Frank Kiss Stein by Jeanette Winterson. Ooh. And it is, right? This cover is iconic.

And this is such a good book. And it's so heady, but also so enjoyable. And so it's like, it tells two different storylines. It tells the infamous story. of Mary Shelley writing Frankenstein back in 1817, which is this like, you know, the original goth myth that she's invited to Lord Byron's castle with her sister and her, like, boyfriend, who's married to another woman, Percy Shelley, and, and they have a contest to see who can write the scariest story, and she's 17 and she writes Frankenstein. It's like fucking crazy.

And so, so it's like a fictionalized, like historical fiction, look at that, but it's also about this young transgender doctor who falls in love with, like is living in a world that might be slightly futuristic from ours, but is very similar. Like one of the early scenes is this young doctor goes to a conference where they're selling like female AI sex dolls to men that are basically like, here's the perfect girlfriend. So like kind of hearkening to what you talked about with Made for Love, but like stuff that's maybe not totally happening, but like could be and might be about to happen. So she falls in love with this AI specialist, Professor Victor Stein. And then she finds out, I'm sorry, they, they find out that he's trying to create like this perfect AI human hybrid being. So Dr. Stein is like a modern Dr. Frankenstein and the doctor is kind of grappling with like their own gender and like what what body am I in. And then you also have the story of Mary Shelley of like somebody creating a body out of a court. Like it's just so well done. But it's like so all of that is like you sit there. Like I remember having this experience reading this book and just being like, God, it's just spurring all these thoughts and I'm writing them down. And then at the same time, it's just such a good read, too. So, and it was like long listed for the Booker Prize.

Like, it's, it's a great book. It's like smart and funny and dark. It's really good. Yeah. Yeah. It is like a good medium to explore how you feel in your own body and like what that all means. Yeah. Right.

And like who constructs bodies and gender and consciousness. And like, it's so, it's very. really, but it doesn't feel like it's hitting you over the head with it. It's just like all of, she puts all of these things into conversation with each other and creates this like weird, wonderful story out of it. That's so cool. Yeah. Kind of like Frankenstein. Exactly. Exactly. So those are, those are my outlier wrecks. I love it. We had, yours are like so, so unique. Not that mine aren't unique, but I always very unique too. Yeah. They're, yeah, they're not thrillers.

Yeah, totally, which is like, but I love, I feel like, with yours, I can also see all the pieces of other books that I know you're obsessed with, too. And, like, I see why you like them. And, like, definitely I've picked up a few that I'm like, gotta read this and got to move this higher up on my TBR. And, like, I'm excited.