Bookwild - Our Favorite Bookish Characters with Halley Sutton

Episode Date: June 28, 2024

This week, Halley Sutton is back and we talk about some of our favorite bookish characters!Books We Talked AboutWhere Are You Echo Blue?It Will Only Hurt for a MomentNo Road HomeLay Your Body DownHow Can I Help YouWe Have Always Lived in the CastleThe Man on the TrainFollow Her HomeMidnight is the Darkest HourThursday Next SeriesOver Her Dead BodyMust Love BooksI Didn’t Do ItVladimirThe OutlierKill for LoveEight Perfect Murders Get Bookwild MerchCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackCheck Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck out the Imposter Hour Podcast with Liz and GregFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrian 

So this week, I'm back with Hallie Sutton again, which I always get so excited for, like, all day. I'm like, ooh, Hallie and I get to talk. So welcome back. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I always feel the same way. It's such a highlight to get to speak with you. And like I come out of our conversations, like, so excited about books and like energized.

And it's so nice. Totally. Me too. Well, you were saying that you have had some really good reviews recently. And I actually finished one this morning that, like, I will make it my mission to make sure that more people read this book. So I figured we should talk about some of the things we've been reading here at the beginning. Yes.

Yes, I have a couple of galley brags. And so full disclosure, I haven't yet started these, but I just got them in the mail like in the last week. And I am going to be starting them. And they're both, I'm so excited about. So the first one is, where are you Echo Blue by Haley Kreacher? And I have been like so excited about this book. since it was announced. It's about a child star who goes missing, which is like right up my alley. And I know she did a lot of research around child stars that I did for my book, The Hurricane

Blonde. And like, I'm so excited to be reading this one. So I'm like, I've been like lying hanging around my house. I know. Isn't the cover great? It's like she's so arresting. It's sort of giving a little Taylor Jenkins read vibes to me too. And it's kind of like straight on gaze and like the pink. It's just like it's so good. So that's my first one. I'm excited for that one too. And then I just got this one yesterday and I am so excited to read it. It will only hurt for a moment by Delilah S. Dawson who's, you know, like the queen. And it's about a woman shows up and she's an artist and she's like gone through some personal tragedies and she shows up at an artist's retreat. But like everybody's acting weird and there's like a dark secret in the midst of it.

And it's like, sew up my alley. That's like, yes. A lot. I'm doing some stuff around like artist retreats. Yeah, I know. That face. Exactly. That cover.

That cover. The cover is so good. The title is so good. It will only go for a moment. I'm like so ominous. Yeah, I know. So I'm so excited to get to read it. It's one of those where, you know, you get asked to read books to blurb as a writer,

which is like such a beautiful, lovely thing. And, but they're always kind of like, well, I don't know. I don't know if you have the time. I don't know if you're interested in reading this. And I was like, put it in my hot hands. Like right now, give it to me. So I just wanted to share about those books. When like people would like tap their credit cards, do you, are you there?

And it was like, just give it to me. Just give it to me. Yeah, totally. I will pay whatever. Exactly. Like if you, now if you don't give it to me, I'll be mad. Like send it to me, please. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, oh, this dovetails really well with the one that I just finished. Because now I really want to read this one for all kinds of reasons. Like everything you were just saying about it. But the one I just, I'm frozen again, aren't I? Oh, I see you. Oh, okay. Okay. Maybe it was just frozen on my screen. So the one that I just finished is called No Road Home by John Fram. and it is about a single father who has a queer, younger seven-year-old son, and he kind of in a whirlwind gets married to this woman named Alyssa Wright, and they have to go back to her family's

massive estate for her 30th birthday. and Toby the dad is very worried for Luca, his son, because her family is descended from, like, her great-grandfather, is a televangelist, a very fire and brimstone televangelist. And the family has made fortunes from church on TV, basically. Yes, I'm so into this premise. This is going to be interesting. So he's very nervous to bring his kid there and doesn't know how they're going to really accept him, but he's like, well, I've got to go meet her family. And when he gets there, their interest in his son is not what he thought it would be. And it's very strange.

And then the patriarch, the head of the family, who's the televangelist, is murdered on the roof on the first night that they're there. Oh. So now it feels like the family. this is all in the synopsis. Now it feels like the family is going to try to put the blame on Toby, but it also seems like they have some ulterior agenda for his son, Luca. And then Luca starts seeing a spectral figure in a tall, a tall spectral figure in a black suit who starts talking to him. And basically, Toby and Luca are having to figure out how they're going to survive being around this family. because also there's a huge storm that flooded the roads.

So they're all stuck there. That sounds great. That sounds great. It is really good. And it is, this is me saying on the record that this book made me realize I can't be such a pacing snob because there is definitely stuff happening in this book, but I would describe it as a slow burn. And it is one of the best payoffs I've ever read from a slow burn. Oh, that's great.

It was stunning. It's gothic. It's paranormal. There's there is the paranormal. There's religious commentary. It was so good. Like I like I can't wait for more people to read it because there's also like the way he uses like religious symbolism in it almost as foreshadowing was so clever. I love what authors do that. Yeah. Okay. That's on my reading list. That sounds great. Yeah. It's going to be. I, Seth Lauer and I got this way about bodies to die for. It's going to be another one where I'm like, no, you have to read it. Totally. Just trust me, you have to read this one.

Like, I want to be this book's advocate so like more people find it. Okay. I'm going to check it out. When is it? So you got a galley of it. So it's not out yet. Yes. It comes out July 23rd, I believe.

Two days before my birthday, which is information you obviously needed to know. Of course. I did. July 23rd. Yep. Okay. I'll have to check it out. It also a little, that sounds a little bit like, do you know the author Sarah Sliger?

She wrote the book, Take Me A Part that came out in 2020, which is great. It's like this beautiful thriller, but it's kind of, it's like an upmarket, definitely. This woman becomes like an archivist for an artist who like died under mysterious circumstances and then like falls in love with her son and is like trying to get to the. bottom of it. Anyway, it's a great book. Highly recommend. But she has her second book coming out in January, and it's called, I believe, Vantage Point. And it's, um, it's not quite the same in the sense of the religious aspect, like the televangelism that you're talking about. But it is kind of like a wealthy, disturbing family kind of like, um, I think kind of like almost like the Murdoz, you know, that whole thing that took. And it's about like deep. And I'm like so excited to read that book. So it's going to be

great. When you said vantage point, I was like, wait a second. I do know her because this is on my neck galley shelf. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And she's just a beautiful writer. She's so smart. Her writing is so good.

Like, I'm really excited for this book. Oh, yeah. It's like because it says Succession meets Meg Abbott with Gothic assistance. Oh, my gosh. That sounds amazing. Right. I want to read that tagline. I was just like, yes, give it to me, Sarah.

Please. Yes. Okay. I have to read that because I thought you were going to say, what did I think you're going to say? Oh, it reminded me a little bit, but there's not paranormal elements. It reminded me, Amy Suter-Clark has a book called Lay Your Body Down. And it's similar to that where, like, you are talking about like someone being very corrupt, but saying they're the church. So totally.

It definitely has those vibes, but it's so much more Gothic and paranormal. Totally. Oh. Sounds so good. Also, yes, Lay-Body down is great. and I love Amy Souter Clark. She's such a great writer. We were agent sisters for a while, and she's like, I go.

Nice. Yeah. The ending of that book, like, I know. I'll just cut this. I'm just going to cut this part out because I have to say it to you. So anyway, if you read, if you read No Road Home, you might like lay your body down is the summation. Without spoilers. Yes.

Have you, have you read anything? I know you were just mentioning. galleys you got. Have you read anything? I did just read something and this actually transitions perfectly into what we wanted to talk about today, which was I think kind of like bookish characters and the way that that like plays with things. So Putnam was kind enough to send me a paperback copy of how can I help you by Laura Sims, which came out in 2023 and was like, I think did really pretty well. It was like very well reviewed and like got a lot of exposure and I totally get why. It is a thriller set in a library.

Yeah. And so it's kind of like, have you read it? No, I haven't read it. I knew it was in a library though. Yes. So it's like dueling POVs of librarians. And one of them isn't who she says she is. And then the other one kind of is like a writer and she starts to like kind of become obsessed with this other woman and wants to use her as like a framework of a novel. Like I don't think I'm giving anything away by that. But like it's so good. And it's. It's so, it's small. It's like a slim book, but it's really satisfying to me. And it's, it really, it kind of obliquely, or that's not the word I meant, excuse me, it like directly

references one of my all-time favorite books, which is, we have always lived in the castle by Shirley Jackson. Have you read that book? Wow. No. Okay. It's so good. It's like these two sisters are living in this kind of mansion, Gothic mansion, like speaking of Gothic mansions on the hill. And all of their family has died in this arsenic poisoning incident years before. And so everybody assumes that like one of them has done it. And then the older sister starts to like come under law enforcement pressure. And it's like it's very just spooky and creepy and has this.

The narrator is the younger sister who goes by the name Maricat. And she's like off. You know what I mean? But like, but in a way that I love, like personally, sometimes I'll read stuff like this and be like, yeah, why wouldn't you want to just murder everybody who's done you wrong? Like obviously, obviously I don't want to do that in real life, but it's so satisfying to read that as a character. That like sometimes it takes me a while. And maybe this is what they're kind of banking on is like, it takes me a while to register that as wrong because I'm like, we're reading to like escape a fantasy. And so it's this creepy atmospheric, gorgeous book.

I think it's Shirley Jackson's masterpiece, all due respect to, you know, the haunting of Hillhouse. But like, they talk about that in this book and it's very well referenced. And it's like this book that kind of like has touchstones within this book. And it's so good. It's so good. You had just made multiple things full circle because in my no road home review, I said fans of haunting of Hill House will love this. Perfect. So we are just bringing

everything together. I mean, Shirley Jackson is like one of those writers who has contributed so much to like certain tropes of genres that we understand today. Like, you know, and she was working with

tropes. It's not like she invented the haunted house but like so much of like our understanding of the haunted house also comes from like her worker. We've always lived on the castle. And like, just is like so good you know the lottery that iconic one that basically is what the hunger games took to become the hunger games and like it's just so good i need to get up on my shirley jackson info she's she's an icon man like she's great yeah we have always lived in the castle is i think

my favorite of hers by far so okay yeah nice yeah well now i'm intrigued by the lottery too the lottery is great. Like the lottery is like, I feel like it's one of those, I think about this with certain authors where it's like, even if you don't know that story, you know the story where it's like there's a village and every year they draw a lottery and they get to like stone one person to death and it's what keeps the village like operating smoothly and keeps everyone's purges at bay. So it's like the purge. It's like the purge. It's kind of like the foundational backbone of like Hunger Games, the purge, a bunch of different stories that we know culturally, but like it comes. from this. Nice. Yeah. Man, I learn I learned stuff every time I talk to you. Anyway, this one's a great one. Yeah. Now I need to read that one. Yes. That sounds so good. It's really good. It's really good and it's a really fast read and she does these alternating chapters between the two librarians and you really get the feel of the library. I think Laura Sims was actually a librarian and then the title, How Can I Help You? Which is so good is like, you know, obviously a reference to like what librarians say, but then as you read the book, it takes on this deeper resonance. It's so good.

Oh my gosh. I have to read it. I am so intrigued now. It's great. Add it to my growing list. I know. That's my problem is every time I talk to you, I'm like, well, now I have 50 more books I have to read. I know. I know. Like work is really getting in the way. It really is. But that one is a really good example of something we're going to talk about a little bit is bookish characters. So kind of just the joy and the fun when you encounter a character in a book and they're bookish too. And you're like, ooh, that's like me. Totally. Like I don't need it in every book, but it is always fun.

Totally. Go for it. Oh, I was going to say, and I think part of the fun too can be like if you know the books they're talking about, like it adds this whole other layer to the text sort of where you're sort of like it's almost like you get to play in both fields. Like you're reading this book, but you're also thinking about like, how does that tie into this Shirley Jackson novel and like how does it? And it just like it's this kind of, I don't know, like lights up my brain in a fun way. Yeah, me too. Very much. Well, when I was thinking about this, one of the really funny things that came up for me first, or at least it's really funny to me, was I was thinking of like the OG bookish character, Bell and Beauty and the Beast.

Oh, yeah. So, like, all of a sudden, Belle just came to mind because that scene where she's, like, walking through the town, like, reading, like, doing errands, but just, like, keeps whatever. And they're, like, singing something about how she just reads all the time. Totally. Everyone, like, used to joke around that that was me growing up because I just literally took books everywhere. I would take them to the movie theater and I would read them until the trailers were done. Yeah, totally. Same here.

Yeah. There were people that were just like, you literally always have a book. And then we moved when I was 10. And I took my books to lunch too, obviously. Obviously. Like the break time that I can read at school. And like, not in a mean way. Like, it's not like they were bullying me.

But like, people are like, why are you always reading? Like, what are you doing? They're like, it's the girl who brings books to lunch. And I was like, yes. So I've always identified with Bell. I feel like she's one of the, she's one of the OG bookish characters that we all met. Totally. Totally agree.

And then she has that iconic scene of like being on the library, um, ladder and like swinging around it. Which first of all is like for some of us was very sexual to see that as a child. Just like, absolutely this is going to be my life. Um, and like, yeah, I love it. And like, obviously my bookshelves back here are my attempt to recreate. Yeah. So, okay, so you saying that made me remember something a couple of years ago. I don't know, I just like fired off like what I thought was a funny tweet, but was also true where I was like, I really miss sustained silent reading after lunch, you know, where you could like read for 20 minutes

what we had to do in school. And somebody wrote back that was like, you're an adult. You could do that now. You could just do that. And I was like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of feel like maybe I should just build that into part of my like workday is like yeah after lunch i read for 20 minutes every day there's no argument yeah i like always carried it with me too because it's like if we got done with class early i'm like i'm opening my book back up if i finished a test early i was like nice i can finish my book same i was the exact same i would be like racing through stuff so that you would have a few minutes to read at the end and like teachers i found out genuine i don't know if you had the same experience but like they genuinely did not care if you were just sitting quietly and reading they were like

that's fine. You're one less to worry about. That's an educational activity. Just like, do what you will. Just do it. Yeah. Yeah. So we were bookish characters ourselves. Yes, we were. Yeah. What about you? Do you have any bookish characters to share? I do. So the one, this was the one that technically inspired this idea or made me think it could be a fun podcast idea. But the man on the train by Debbie Babbitt, it just came out here recently. But, it is it's sold from two perspectives a husband and a wife but the husband is like a failed writer basically he like works for a publishing company but like hasn't finished a book um but he's so into books and so there are tons of references like as the title says he does get on a train multiple times in the book and so he'll be reading on the train but another cool thing that I loved about this, the way this book used a bookish character was the books that are referenced help you kind of understand the direction the story is going. Oh, I love that.

Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. So it's kind of a nod to some of the things that are going on that you're suspicious of. I love when writers find cool ways to like weave stuff like that. Like, so it's about a character who loves books, but it's also the author showing how much they love books and like that they're using that. It's like it's so good. Yes. It's very meta. For sure. I love it. Yeah. So yeah, he's my first one. Nice. Other than that one. I have another. I have a couple more actually. So my next one is follow her home by Steph Cha. So Steph Cha. So Steph Cha is a fantastic. writer. And she writes kind of like L.A. Noir. Her last book came out, I want to say maybe 2019, and it's called Your House Will Pay. And it's this incredible book. I like, that's still a book I think of as like unbelievably wonderful about, I don't know if you're familiar with some of the racial history and uprising history in Los Angeles. But there's this infamous murder that happened in LA in the 1990s. I think it was 1992. It was a young woman, young black woman,

named Latasha Harlins, who was accused of stealing orange juice and basically like a bodega and was shot in the back of the head by the store owner who was a Korean woman. And there's like a long history of the tensions between the black community in L.A. and the Korean American community in L.A., mostly fostered by the like the terribleness that is white supremacy. But like this book kind of deals with that incident. And like it's she does, it's so good. Anyway, that's that book. That's not even the book I'm talking about today. That book is great. This book is, Follow Her Helm, is I think the first of her three book series starring this Korean-American private investigator Juniper Song, who is very much in the tradition of Philip Marlowe and is like,

talks about how much she loves Philip Marlowe and Raymond Chandler's novels, which are like such a touchstone of my own work and like the like LA noir, you know, he was like the king. Yes. Debatively. And so it's like she does such an interesting job. of kind of like you said with the man on the train where she's like very consciously signposting the tradition that she's working in and kind of using those tropes and those things to thread throughout the book and to signal where the plot is going and the characters and it's just it's so well done these and I think these books are criminally underrated like I do not see them out as much as I would love to they are so good they're like just a really interesting fresh

noir but also just like dark mysteries they're so good yeah yeah this sounds really good i had not heard of her yeah step chosh she's great she's an icon and that the cover for your house will pay is so cool it's so cool it's a great title again it's just like i loved that book like that book i think is her masterpiece so far but all of the juniper song books are wonderful and deserve like a huge readership like they're really really really great oh well i want to read these now too for sure that's awesome well my next one is midnight is the darkest hour from ashley winstead our queen are definitely the queen of this podcast yes um so it's main character ruth is a librarian a librarian? Yes.

Yeah, she is. You're right. Yeah, she is. All of a sudden, I doubted myself. I'm like, you picked it for this reason. Why are you doubting yourself? So she's a librarian herself in her small town. And the gist of the book is that a skull comes up out of one of the lakes in her small town. And she and kind of like a childhood friend, because she is 19 in this book are kind of like the only ones who could maybe figure out what's going on in the town because clearly there are some murderous stuff happening. So that's like the gist of the book. But the other really bookish part of it is Ruth is like obsessed with Twilight, like loved slash loves Twilight so much.

And so Ashley, the genius that she is manages to work in, like, conversations on, like, the way we kind of look down on fan girl culture, even though men are allowed to, like, paint their faces and look like mascots for sports. But, like, fan girls are just dumb. Totally. So she does some really cool stuff there with a bookish character, where it's like, who cares if there's a book that you really like? like really got attached to the characters and like what's the actual problem there. So it's a love to all this all us bookish people. Love letter. Wow. It is. It totally is a love letter. And I and she does something so cool.

I mean, I could talk about Ashley. This like we joke about this. This might as well be like the Ashley Winstead Appreciation podcast. And I don't see that ending anytime soon because she just announced two new projects today on Instagram. I was going to say it too. Yeah. She does such a cool, and I heard her talk about it and her relationship to Twilight and how that informed this book and like that essentially she had at one point kind of been like looking down on Twilight of like whatever and then kind of had an aha moment about like the impact that book has had and like revisited it. And like and she does such a cool job with Ruth's journey in that of like. she never, it never feels like she's looking down on Ruth's interest in Twilight, but there's also ways in which like Ruth maybe misreads or misunderstand situations because she's like

trying to live in her own version of Twilight and it's like so good. And also, I don't know if you're aware of this. Ashley shared it and I'm going to share it too because I think I'm sure she's told other people. I'm not going to tell you what it is, but I will tell you. Yes. if you have read this book, there was originally a different ending to this book that is like even more bonkers than the ending there is now. And if you ask her nicely, she will tell you what it was. And it's, remind me, are we cool what swearing on this? Oh, yeah. Fuck yeah. It's fucking amazing. When she told me that, I was like, okay, the book is perfect as it is and I wouldn't change anything, but also the ending that you have is like the ending that she didn't get to use,

you need to use it for something else because it's amazing. I know. So she on her podcast with us about midnight is the darkest hour. She was with Gare and I. She was saying how there was a different ending. And so this is out there already. Okay. And I wish she was because she just kind of willingly told us.

What the ending was though. Okay. But she told us there was another ending and that she. she what she said was that her publicist was like or her agent was like this is going to put it in SFF for like sci-fi fantasy and is that something you want to do? Yeah. And so given those hints, I never went back and asked her to tell me the ending, but given those hints, I told her when we were recording, I was like, I'm pretty sure that's where I thought

it was going. So keep it all mysterious to keep it all mysterious to everyone here. but when she said that, I was like, I think I know where it was going. That would have been just as cool because I thought there was some stuff going on too. I, when we stop recording you and I should compare notes, because I think you're right about part of it, at least. And maybe you got the whole part, but probably not all of it. Yeah, it like blew my face off. Okay.

Well, yeah, we'll go talk about it. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's so good. And I love that you picked that book. I loved that book. I loved it so much. That's another one actually that has, same thing.

There is a moment at the end that just I almost jumped out of my skin completely when she said something to her father. That's what I'll say. Oh, God. Yes. Yes. And I was like, I've got to stop not really stop reading books like these, but I get so excited when they're a little turd.

of power, like the power shifts, and then there's a beautiful line that, like, shows you how much the power has shifted. It makes me want to, like, go run a marathon when I get lines like that. I love that. I love that. Yeah. Amazing. Such a good book. Such a good book. Yeah. Okay. My next one is not, okay, so I wouldn't recommend starting with this one, but I didn't have the first book in the series, so I'm just going to hold this one. Yeah. And I've talked about it. it before. And I love these books so much that I'm recommending a book by a man, which is not a thing I do very often, to be honest. That's amazing. But it's the Thursday Next series by Jasper Ford. And it's F-F-F-O-R-D-E. Sorry, I might still have an old sticker on there. But so Thursday next,

so it's set in this kind of like steam punkish futuristic 1980scape in like London. And Thursday Next is the main character. And she's a literary detective. So in this world, you can like jump into books and live in them. But her job is to go into books when things are going wrong. So the first one is called The Air Affair and it's about Jane Eyre. And it's like, I think it's like Jane Eyre does not want to marry Mr. Rochester. If I remember correctly, she's like, fuck this guy. I'm not doing it.

He's got a wife in the closet. Like, we're not doing it. And it's her job to like go in and like sort out what's gone wrong. Oh my gosh. And it's just there's such a delight. And so, like, and they're so filled with like bookish references and bookish love and like, who amongst us hasn't wanted to actually like go in and live in a book? And so they are so good. They're just like, I really honestly want to reread the series from the beginning because like I just

enjoyed them so much. They're so delightful and weird and just fun, especially if you're a book lover. Yeah. And it feels like it's kind of like a nice like break outside of like, like, strictly thriller or mystery genre. Totally. But like it's still kind of it is. Totally. And they still have mysteries that you follow through, you know, like what, but it's not a, it's not a straight thriller. It's, and it's, it is, um, sci-fi fantasy sort or sci-fi, I guess a little bit in that, like, it's an alternate history, but it's not fully like, it's not like cyborg sci-fi. It's just like, we live in a different world.

She can travel into a book. Yeah. Exactly. And it's her job's like. sort out literature. It's so good. Oh my gosh. It's such a unique concept too. I love when people just really think of something so creative. I know. Me too. I'm intrigued. Yes. Very intrigued. Well, I don't have a good segue for my next one. But this one wasn't necessarily a totally bookish character, but the book Over Her Dead Body by Susan Walter. Have you read that one?

I haven't. No, but it's on my TVR. She, I got obsessed with her like at the beginning of the year and then just like read all of all three of her books at the time. And I'm super excited for her running cold comes out in October. And I have that one too. And I'm very excited. I'm seeing a lot of people love that one. So good for her. But over her dead body is about kind of like this woman who's been.

kind of a legend in Hollywood as a casting director. She's in her 70s or 80s. And basically there is so many points of view. She is so good at writing like five points of view and like giving closure to all of them. But we're in one point of view. It's this girl whose dog like gets loose and she ends up by chance meeting this woman because the dog gets on her property. And then she just kind of goes back to her life.

And then like two days later, the woman, the 80-year-old woman goes missing. Go missing. Yeah, she goes missing. But she's left a will. And so everyone was like, hmm, okay. And the will gives all of her, like everything in her estate to this young, woman that she just met the day before. So her, the siblings are like, what the fuck? And, uh, basically just all kinds of drama ensues because this girl's like brought into this family and

they're all mad at her and she's like, I don't even know what's happening here. Um, and so then a bunch of family secrets and the reason that they, the reason that she wanted to spitefully keep her kids out of the will, you start to figure it out. But at the beginning, of the book that woman is reading something in her study reading a book and the book that she's reading also informs you about the book that you're about to read. I just think that's so cool. It's like a book in stuff. Yes. I love that. That's great. Also, that sounds really cool. It sounds like thriller sort of like Evelyn Hugo vibes. Yeah. Like, why this woman, why not? Yeah. Yeah. It's a little bit It doesn't focus as much on her life as Evelyn does.

But yeah, same things. Like someone who'd been in Hollywood for a while and how her family treated her and got used to everything. So it is so good. There's so many twists at the end. I did not see them coming. I thought I did. I love that. Especially like with a seasoned thriller reader.

Like, you know, like it's, yeah. It's, it's, it can be hard to like, um, So many twists are, you know, I think, I mean, we can have a whole separate conversation about the way that I think like Gone Girl has changed the field of thrillers and now people like want twists everywhere and like they're actually not that easy to write and or easy to like make authentic to the story. But like when somebody pulled it off and like you don't know what's going to happen, like, I know a lot of the things that are going to happen because like it's our job to like taking apart plot. So when somebody really like surprises you, you're like. Yes. That's how I follow. this one, but that is like even more like to the nth degree. That's how I felt with no road home that I just finished. The way, like there were so many things that I was even aware of. I was like, okay, so this detail means something. Right. And I would like think it meant something. But like to me, like the way I thought when I finished reading it was just like, how did he keep track of? Like it's so complex.

There were so many details to keep track of. Yeah. And I was even picking up on some of them. But I wasn't right. I still wasn't right. Amazing. amazing. Yeah, that's how I felt with this one. Like, you should have them on the podcast and just be like, I'm going to reach out to him. How? Yeah. Yes. I'm totally reaching out to him. I might have to do a spoiler section with him because like, totally. That's the other part. Like when I went to even type my review, I was like literally typing. I was like, there's so much about this book that I want to praise that I can't tell you about without spoiling it. So here's what I can tell you. Because there's so much going on. So maybe that won't have a spoiler section. Yeah, for sure. for sure we'll see that's great well i got to pick up that susan walter book that's right up my alley too she's yeah i think that one's my favorite of hers okay okay so far nice yeah um okay i don't have a segue for my next one either um and it is not a thriller um it is must love books by shana robinson i would say it's more like um women's fiction and it's not this woman nora who works as an editorial assistant.

But she's not making any money, which is like so true for having, having been an editorial assistant in an expensive place like San Francisco. Yeah. So she starts moonlighting, working for a different company. And then she like winds up getting involved and falling in love with like the, her OG company has this author who's like their big author and like they get involved in like professional entanglements ensue. And it's also about like coming into your own and your 20.

and dealing with depression and it's just a very thoughtful, beautiful book. And so this one came out in 2022. And since then, Shawna has published two other books. And I also have to say, full disclosure, I know, Shauna, we are friends.

We used to work together at Wiley. We used to joke that like every, yeah, every job I left, she took. So it was like, I was the editorial assistant. And then when I left that job,

she became the editorial assistant, like on and on. And she's just like, like, we're here to talk about the literary. merits of her book, which are like, this is a great book. She's a great writer. All of her books are so thoughtful and complex and interesting. But also, Shauna herself is just like thoughtful and complex and interesting. And like one of the funniest people I know, like she also is somebody who we're on a work trip together taught me the art of reheating pizza from the night before using a blow dryer.

And it's just like just a wonderful human being and a great writer. And so must love books is her first one. And the second one is also a bookish title. And I can't remember what it is. I'm sorry, it's long. It's like Maggie Banks's dream bookstore or something like that. But she writes a lot of her books are kind of threaded through with like her love of books and like just so good. So good. So rich.

Not a thriller, but like deeply well crafted, thoughtful women's fiction. Yeah. The band bookshop of Maggie Banks. That's what it is. Yes. Sounds bookish. And then she has another one called The Secret Book Club. Yep.

Coming out. So she's just a bookish author for us. She definitely is. And I know she's like drawn on her own experience. And that's cool. In publishing and stuff. And I know that I partially inspired a character and must love books. My gosh.

That's so cool. Yeah. Now I really do it. It's great. It's great. She's great. Shauna is just like, yeah. If like I would highly recommend

reaching out for her for your podcast too sometime if you're ever interested because she's like just so deadpan funny like she's just hilarious. I love that. Yeah. I was literally at lunch with a friend. I know it's shocking. I left the house a couple weeks ago. So I've been in the house recovering since then.

But he was saying something and I was just like I was saying something and I was like, yeah, this person like told me this. and then just forgot when they then told me this part. He was like, well, they probably didn't forget. And he, like, didn't realize that I was being sarcastic. Nice. And he was like, I'm sorry. Sometimes your sarcasm is like just so dry that I don't catch it.

Just like, what? So she was right up my alley. Oh, totally, totally. She's like, yeah, one of like the funniest, um, wisest humans. Just like, she's a good time. I love that. So my next one has a ton of bookish character. and it's because it's, I didn't do it by Jamie Lynn Hendricks, which is literally a thriller

that takes place at something like Thriller Fest. I can't remember what she calls it in the book now. And I don't have it pulled up. But it's basically you're in four different authors' perspectives throughout the book. And so there's like all this funny like publishing commentary to like one of her characters even corrects the grammar in her thoughts. There's like too many ad groups, get rid of it or like, you don't need that. That's not a helping word.

And so like it's really meta in how bookish it is. And then so your authors are your main characters and an author is murdered at Thriller Fest or at whatever thriller, whatever she calls it in the book. So it's a bunch of thriller authors trying to solve a murder. So there's just there's so much meta bookish stuff going on throughout the whole book. I love that. I so, okay, that book has been on my radar for a long time. I have it. I just haven't read it yet.

I tend to be a weird moody reader who goes all over the place. But I have been obsessed with that idea. Like that's so good that she capitalized on that. That like all and all the weird like I love writing conferences. I always get a lot out of them. I think they're really cool. But there are often like very strange dynamics. mix of them too about like people who were kind of the superstars and then the like you and I talk about

the parissocial nature of fans and like yeah how weird some of that can be and like for myself somebody who like was a fan in the crime writing and thriller community long before I was a published author in it like it's a weird transition to go from like oh I'm in the audience seeing Megan Abbott to like oh I'm like at a mixer with Megan Abbott and like how do I not vomit on her shoes because I'm like so obsessed with her, you know? Like, and I love that she took that, like, atmosphere and created a thriller out of it. I think it's so cool. Yes. I know. I would feel the same way. I'd be like, but I'm a fan. Like, even if I had a book published, I'd be like, but I'm just fans of these people. Yeah, exactly. And that's how I always feel like. And I still get like a little thrill out of,

I'm going to like name drop for a second. But like, you know, I have text threads going this morning. I was texting Lane Fargo and Megan Collins. And there's a part of me that always is just like, oh my God, I'm texting the Enfireo and making calls. But like we're also legit friends. Like so it's, but it's, I don't know. It's like a cool thing. No, I totally get that. That's how I felt when I was texting you.

Harley just came in and yonderly loud. She was like, you're boring me. I'm like, this is an important story. Yeah, come on. That's funny. That's cute. It is a really fun, fun, twisty little book. I love that.

I love that. Yeah. That's moving up higher on my TBR. Yeah. Do you have another one? I do. I have one more. Okay. Nice. It is, it's a thriller-ish. It's a thriller. It has thriller elements, but it's more on the literary side of thriller. And I always try to choose books that don't get as much coverage because I like to shout those books out. Yeah. Because my books are like that. But this one did get a fair amount of coverage at the time when it came out.

but it is Vladimir by Julia May Jonas. And it is, I mean, first of all, look at this cover. Like, female gaze. Like, I mean, iconic. So it's about a woman who's an English professor. And she's at this kind of like small liberal arts college. And she's married to a man who I think is a writer. And he's also a professor.

And he's kind of had, he does that kind of stereotypical middle-aged man thing. of like, oh, no, all these young girls just are obsessed with me, blah, blah, blah. And then he gets into kind of a me-to situation where, like, some woman is saying, like, he's acted inappropriately. And his wife becomes obsessed with another professor who's a much younger man than her. And I don't think I'm giving anything away because I'm pretty sure this happens. Like, you get a hint of this in, like, the very first pages. but she winds up

doing some very unhinged things to this man to to kind of scratch the itch she's feeling of her like sexual obsession with him and it's... This book was great. It sounds hot.

It's hot, it's unhinged, it's disturbing. it's beautifully written and I remember there being a lot of literary fiction. Yeah and there's a lot of stuff in there that really like made me think but it definitely it is literary fiction but it definitely has I mean I'm just going to come out and say it because I think it's she kidnaps this guy and so and like keeps him in a cap and so like it's it's literally but like you're playing with the tropes of like crime novels and thrillers and stuff but she's kind of slipping it on her head of this sort of like my husband has this like whole house

hunting ground of women that he's treating inappropriately and like I just have this one man that I'm obsessed with. Oh yeah. See what better. It's great. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Kind of and like flipping. So interestingly when I typed in Vladimir, the other thing that came up, it was it, Lolita was what it brought up underneath it. Yeah. And I was like, so this is kind of the feminist flip on that maybe if we, I guess we can call it feminist. Yeah, exactly. We can have a whole debate about whether it's feminist or not. But I think, I mean, to me, I think feminist doesn't have to be a book that, like,

necessarily has a message that I think is a perfect feminist message. I think any book that, like, eliminates, like, the interiority of a woman in a way that's, like, really about her is feminist, even if it's an interiority where you're like, well, I don't, I don't know that I think that's my feminist manifesto, but, like, the point is that you don't have to be one perfect thing to be a woman. And so in that way, I would call it feminist for sure. And it's also just like really fun this book. It looks fun.

Yeah. But yeah, to what you're saying, I do think it's that because sometimes it's like women didn't get to be villains or anti-heroes for forever. So it's like there is the part where like even just women, women getting to be villains was them getting to play the same roles that men play too. So even from that perspective, sometimes just flipping it. Because what is, there's one that I'm really excited about that was compared to a feminist American Psycho. Ooh. It's called The Outlier with Elizabeth from Elizabeth Eves. Oh, interesting.

That was one recently that I heard as a feminist take on American Psycho. So very intrigued. That also makes me think of. So a female take on American Psycho, too, would also be a book called Kill for Love by Laura. Laura Picklesmeyer. Yes. Yes. And that's like, she goes there, man.

She really goes there. She definitely goes there. Yeah. She definitely does. That book is, it's unique. Like, again, it's like, it's not like many other books. It really isn't. And she, it's like a sat.

and it's a bunch of different things. And like I did an event with her and we talked about and I thought this was so interesting. I've never seen a female writer do this with like, you know, we have the trope of like men being obsessed with blondes. Like hashtag not all men, of course, but like there's, you know, Hitchcock famously and there's like the trope of the blonde, like, which is sort of what I was getting at with the Hurricane blonde. But like she flips it and kill for love. And it's a woman who's obsessed with blonde men and is like hunting them down. And it's like, I was like, she. Chef's Kiss.

This is perfect. No, no. On that part. I know. I know. Yeah, that book was wild. Totally wild. It's a ride for sure.

Yeah. It's for it will, yeah. There's really, there's almost no cops for it. Like there are, but. Totally. American Psycho is really like the closest, I would say. It really is. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully the outlier is similarly good. This says on Goodreads, American Psycho and Stilettos. Oh, what a great tagline. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. Yeah.

That's so good. Okay. I'm excited for that one. I got to read that too. Yeah. So my last one, I can't spell. Where did it go? I lost this.

And there are some specific things I know. Okay, perfectly remember. So my last. very bookish character is A Perfect Murders by Peter Swanson. And so it's basically about a bookseller who is like really into like old school mysteries. And so he wrote like an article where he compiled a list of the genre's most unsolvable, unsolvable murders. I'm having trouble saying L's and ours today.

So there's a hire you. But so he includes Agatha Christie's ABC murders, Patricia Highsmith, Strangers on a Train, Ira Levens, Death Trap, A.A. Milnes. My voice. Red House Mystery. Anthony Berkeley's Cox's Malice Afterthought. James M. Cain's double indemnity. John D. McDonald's The Drowner and Donna Tarts, A Secret History.

So that's all in the synopsis. These are all ones that he considers in this article. He writes to be perfect murders. And then people start getting murdered in order of that list. And the murders are like the books. Amazing. That he listed. Yeah. And so then like he's going through like, then I think the police end up, I read it a long time ago. The police end up being like, did you do this? Because he wrote this list and now all this is happening. So he's trying to keep the police from basically arresting him by figuring out what's actually happening. Love it.

That's so good. That's such a good premise. And like it allows you to like lean on and like use the tropes and like examples of these like iconic works of literature. Yeah. Like didn't A.A. Milne? I'm pretty sure that's the author of Winnie the Pooh too. Like as I remember when I was reading it. Yeah, I think he was like, Winnie the Pooh on one hand, and then my other brand is murder.

And I sort of love that. I guess. I know. That was one that I was like, I actually don't know what he's talking about there. But I thought they, I definitely thought it was, okay, so here's his Red House mystery. Yeah, Winnie the Pooh. Love it. What range. Childhood. Yeah, exactly. That's deep range there, really. A whole other kind of range. I thought Ashley writing romance and thrillers was right. which it is.

I still, I don't think I could. Wow, that's crazy. Yeah. The things you learn. So yeah, that was Peter Swanson's contribution. He can,

I think he has bookish characters in his other books though, too. Actually, now that I think of it. I think his books often kind of like play off of tropes of, like I know he's often, I've read several of his books and I think he's a great writer. And he's also often like writing kind of in the tradition of Patricia Highsmith, or Agatha Christie, like using those really iconic classic mystery writers.

And I think it's such a cool thing when people do that and do it well. And he really does. Yeah, because the kind worth killing is basic. It's strangers on a train. It's that trope. Totally. Amazing. That might be a book that I'll reread, maybe.

I just don't reread unless, like, unless there's a series and I really just need to remember. I'll skim. and then read, but otherwise I just don't. But the kind worth killing, like, it's been like 10 years since I read it too. And it was like, I've been on just like, I was on Thrillers by the Book Club podcast and something else. We're like just very sequentially, I was asked the question of like what book got you into thrillers. So I've been talking about this in general. So I think that's why it's been making me think about it again.

Like it was that book. I read The Kind Worth Killing and Gone Girl. in like the same two months or something when I was in college. And I was like, wow, like when I can choose the books I read, there are some great books. Yeah. Yeah. I started off with like top tier ones.

But I haven't like, it's been that long. And now like I'm a different person and I read books a little bit differently just because I've like learned about writing. So. And it just being influential. I'm like, it might just be fun to read it again. yeah totally i know what you mean i think that it's so interesting the way that like books can hit us at different times of our lives yeah the different impact it can have when you read it like one moment

and then another um and i'm with you it's always hard because like there's so many good books out there to read yeah i do reread books occasionally but it's always that kind of struggle of like but there's so many books i have that i haven't read and that like even books they don't have you know like and i'm really in denial that i'm not going to read all the books i want to in my lifetime i'm like I'm pretty sure I will. I know. It's hard to accept. It really is.

Last year I was even like, I'm going to request less on net galley and like, so I can just kind of read anything. But then it was like, I enjoy podcasting with offers. And so on the, it's, it wasn't like I forced myself like, oh, no, no, no, you do have to use arcs or whatever. It was just more that I was like, I do enjoy. getting to interview authors about it. So now I am reading mostly front lists, but I break it up every now and then.

But it is worth it when I can like, especially like this John Fram one. Like I don't know that I would have even really heard about it if they hadn't emailed me about it. And now I'm like really hoping I talk to him about it. So yeah. That's where I'm at kind of right now. Yeah. I hope you do too. And like, yeah, it is hard.

I think about that too. like from the author side it can be like there's so many books coming out all the time and so it's kind of crazy that you write a book and then like your pub week comes and like it's all exciting and big and like it's always exciting right like it's it's exciting to have written two books no matter what but like there can be such an emphasis on front list all the time and so that's part of sometimes why I like to try to bring in backlist when I talk to you or like even in my author newsletter because I'm like those books didn't go away they still need audience. you know, like it's hard.

I know, I think about that too, especially because I'm writing. And I'm always like, there are so many books that come out. Totally. Just an avalanche of books every week, which I think is great. You know, I think that we should have more voices and more like books out there and like more people can find the books that they like. But then it's also like, well, let's not forget about the published guys that are still good, you know. I know.

I know. Yeah. I don't want to miss out on those either because there are just sometimes you. hear one and you're like, oh, that sounds like something I'd like. I know. I know. The eternal struggle. You know, like the other thing that I liked that my brain likes to do is then turn that into something that I need to think forever about. Like, is it a bad thing that I'm not? I know right now. Just do what you're doing for right now. It's okay. There's no, in my opinion, there's no wrong way to read. You know, like, I don't know if it's on

TikTok or like, you know, whether you're reading front list or backlist or like, I don't know whatever silly narrative we've gotten in where people are like listening to books as a reading. And you're like, of course it is. Of course it is. Like how could that be, how could that be a question that we're having? Like to me, that's, I know. It's just a different mode of reading, you know? Yes, it is. I, that's weird. It, you feel like you run in every community, you run into the weird things where you're like, this is the thing you guys judge each other on. And it's one of those things where I'm like, there's just a faction of people that decided like, oh, you're not reading. You're like, Yes, they are.

Which is so silly. It's just an audio form. Right. And like I'm a person who I genuinely prefer to read like a book in my hands just because I process it better, I think. Like oftentimes when I'm listening to something, I like all of a sudden I'll like dip out. I'll like follow a thought and then be like, oh, I didn't hear what just happened for the last five minutes. You know what I mean?

So like for me reading on the page. But like I think it's incredibly silly that like my preference would dictate like what reading is or isn't. That's so silly. Exactly. Anyone who judges anyone for what they read, I'm like, your life just must be really sad for you to be picking this hill to die on. I know. I know. It's very silly. People get so territorial about certain things in ways that I'm just like... They do. Okay. They really do.

Yeah. Have you been watching anything recently? I watched a documentary on Netflix called Tell Them You Love Me. Dude, I've been hearing about this. It's a weird one. Everyone's like, this is whack. Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot to unpack. So it's about, I don't even know.

I'm going to do my best to represent this if you don't know what it's about, which is that it's about a white woman who's a faculty member at Rutgers. and she gets involved with this family, a black family, and with two sons. One of them is her student. He's a PhD student. And the other one is his younger brother who has cerebral palsy. And so she is a big proponent of a very controversial method of communication, which is essentially assisted using a keyboard to type out, but it's assisted.

And so she. she's like he can do it. I'll train him in it. Da-da-da-da. And then she says that over this keyboard communication, they fall in love and begin a sexual relationship. And other experts evaluate him and says he doesn't have the intellectual capacity to actually be typing to her. And I think the documentary

is yeah does a very even-handed job of presenting all of this um and i came out of it feeling a certain way which is essentially like i don't know there's so much to unpack there so much about like race and class and oh wow disability and it's it's it's a lot and um it's a weird one but it's i thought it was a really well-done documentary. I thought I spent a lot of time thinking about it. Not easy to watch. If some of those things are triggering, I would stay away from it. But it's, I thought it was like a really interesting conversation in there about sort of a lot of it. Like, was this woman basically talking to herself? I believe that she believes what she says is true and also like how does like I don't know it's it's it's yeah it's interesting yeah

not provoking yeah what about you would oh guard sorry you're talking off of that interestingly there was it's kind of like it's it when I read it I would describe it more as a family drama with a mystery that's there um but like it is not thriller pacing I'll just like say that from the get go. Yeah. But it's called Happiness Falls by Angie Kim. Yes. Did you read that?

Okay. I haven't read it yet. I've read Marable Creek by Angie Kent. She's a great writer. Yes. I had so many, like I think it'll, oh no, I got an early copy so it doesn't show my highlights. I had so many highlights in this book.

So many great things to think about. And to like sum it up really quickly for people. Basically, Eugene. This, it's mostly told from a sister's perspective, Mia, and her younger brother, Eugene and their dad don't come back from the park. And then later, Eugene shows up, but dad doesn't. And so the mystery is like, where's dad? Yeah. The pacing is like a family drama, in my opinion, because you're just learning little bits about how this family has grown because

Eugene has Angelman syndrome and he can't speak. And then he also has some, what is the motor skills, problems or difficulties as well. But there's like, it examines that because there's something similar to that, because there are therapists within, especially with like Angelman syndrome, that feel like they can assist their, clients or their patients. That's the word I was looking for. Their patience with movement by just like stabilizing it with them. But like it caused a big divide in the family because this isn't giving tons away for the book.

Because like the mom is like can't believe that her son is actually talking to or basically one of them wants it to be true because they want to be able to communicate with their son. The other one is like how could that be real and like she's guiding him to certain things so that she can say she's doing therapy with him. So right when you started

talking about that, I was like, oh yeah, that was, I remember reading a story like that and a you are, you're just like, you want to help people with disabilities. You want it to be true that there could be away from them to speak, but it's like hard to really say it's them when someone else is pushing their hand. Totally, totally. Yeah. And the, yeah, I had that thought too in the documentary of like, which side do you land on? Do you land on, like, this woman is maybe trying, in her mind, think she's doing something good and is helping him communicate, but is, in fact, perhaps over interpreting or his ability or different things?

Or do you land on the side of, like, but what if it is true? I don't know that I came out of the documentary thinking that it was, but, like, What if it is true? And then that person wants to communicate but is like, yeah, and cannot, you know, like,

and either side, there's really horrible and painful realities to confront. Yeah. Like, it's, I don't know. I know. It makes me,

like, I'm so grateful that I can communicate with my mouth, I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah, totally the value of, yeah, things that are easy to take for granted and so easy. That's like when we get anxious,

or are like feeling lack of things or scarcity. It's always like you can combat it with gratefulness. And like then when you're being purposeful about it, you're like, oh, I have air conditioning. Like I can just be grateful for that. And then like reading this book, I was like, I can literally just be grateful that I can walk and talk.

And like I'm not like trapped because that's like, it sounds terrifying being trapped in like, because it touches on that too. You could be trapped in a really intelligent brain. Like you could be aware of everything that's going on, but because your motor function keeps you from being able to communicate, like we just don't even know what's happening in their brains. And that would be scary.

Totally. Totally. That's like a living hell situation. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. I know. Well,

what about you? Are you watching anything? So I saw Inside Out two, two nights ago. I bawled like a baby, which I knew it happened inside out. It makes me cry quite a bit at the end. The first one did. This one, Riley is a teen, and so they introduced new emotions, which are embarrassment, envy, on we, and anxiety. And so a lot of the book is about anxiety and what it does to our brains.

and if you have, I mean, even if you haven't been in therapy, but if you've ever been any kind of therapy, this book is just going, or book, used to books. This movie is just going to mean a lot to you, basically. And you're going to see so that the stuff they managed to fit into a children's movie, like it will never cease to amaze me how well with these ones with Inside Out and Inside Out too. They entertain kids.

And then my sister-in-law and I were just, she was handing me tissues for like 10 straight minutes. There's like, there's like a sequence at the end that like they get you and then they get you and then they get you. And then it lets up and things are better. And then they get you with the happy tears then. And so she just like kept passing napkins over to me because she could just see the tears just falling. And we were there with her 13 year old. daughter and her 10-year-old son.

And, like, we got out and they're like, you guys are weird. And I was like, this is one of those times that adults tell you, you'll get it when you're older and you are all your eyes with me and say that you're not going to get it, but you will. And also, like, Pixar movies are literally engineered to make you cry. Like, there have been, like, things done about that. Like, they are the master of that. Like, yes, I totally get it. Waterwork City. Oh, it was powerful. It was so powerful. And I don't want to give anything away for anyone who

does want to go see it. But I was even taking notes because like, I don't know if I've said this before, but I love sitting in the back of the movie theater so that I can like make notes. But like, I just do it on dark mode. Like, and no one's behind me. So I like being able to take notes, especially literally it picked up after I read Save the Cap because now I like to like catch the moments and like see different ways people do stuff. Totally.

And the way they did the exposition was like I was like I could write a whole like I could write a whole article about like just these first like five minutes. You should. They're just so good at storytelling. I know I want to when they get it on DVD I'm going to or when it's like available for rent.

Yeah. I want to rewatch it and like write about it. basically. You absolutely should. I feel like there's like for sure a market for that article. Yeah. Translating. And I love that you do that. I'll often do that when I'm at home to or like, you can you can do the thing where if you're watching it like on your home computer or TV and you like pause it when you think you're like, okay, I think this is the midpoint and you pause it and see if you're right. You know what I mean? Like you can like look at where the beats are hitting. It's great. Yep. Yeah. I started doing that too. even with like kind of not serial uh no it is serialized instead of episodic so tv shows where like the arc

is the full like six to eight episodes yeah i started paying attention to that too like when i watched donald glover's mr and mrs smith here recently like i was like paying attention and all that and then you do notice it in like in the series that are good totally like you do do catch like, oh, this midpoint. But then it's really interesting to me to be able to see midpoints in like an episode and how it still works on the episode level. But then even in the whole season arc, you can see a midpoint too. It's so cool.

I always think that when about like writing for TV that like you're having to actually create to save the cat arcs or like plot works, right? You're having to do it for the whole season and then you're having to do it individually in an episode. And like how hard must it be to get those things to align? you know like i don't know i think about that too yeah for sure because like with the really really like just the well-produced miniseries that i don't know i'm not thinking of specific ones right now they do do that where you're like wow you had this to think about and you had this to think

about totally totally i think like there are i think tv especially there are there are times when you it feels like you can read it like a book you know what i mean where they're kind of like Like if you think about breaking bad or something, like the way that sometimes they would start like a season with like a flashboard into what was going to come and build it back and forth. And like it feels very literary in a way too. It does. The way that people build TV shows. It's, I love that. I know.

I think that's what I end up loving about it. Bad sisters just came to mind on Apple TV. They do it so well. So good. So well. Yeah. Totally feels like you're reading a book. Yeah.

absolutely and I would even like the female revenge of it all feels like so many of my favorite books totally I would I would read the hell out of that book for sure yeah yeah well we've given the people books read we've given the movies to watch and TV shows to watch so I think we've had a complete episode I think so too I think we really did this was great it's always so lovely to chat with you my friend it's so fun