Bookwild - Pop Culture, Gossip and Revenge: Ashley Winstead's Hot Girl Murder Club

Episode Date: July 10, 2026

Ashley Winstead IS BACK!  Gare and I ask all our burning questions about Hot Girl Murder Club. Listen to hear about: How Ashley Winstead wrote Hot Girl Murder Club as an act of creative defiance. Ashley shares the publishing and Hollywood conversations that told her feminist revenge stories were "over"—and why that made her determined to write one anyway.  The surprising inspiration behind the novel's unique structure. Ashley discusses how Dune, historical dissertations, Patty Hearst, and mythic storytelling shaped the book, including an early version that was set decades in the future. A deep dive into celebrity culture, parasocial relationships, and internet outrage. The conversation explores why public opinion swings so dramatically, the complexity of figures like Lena Dunham, and how social media has changed the way we judge people. Why stories about women's anger, friendship, and justice are resonating right now. We discuss sisterhood, feminist thrillers, revenge narratives, and why readers still crave these conversations despite industry assumptions. How gossip, pop culture, and "frothy" entertainment can be surprisingly political. From celebrity scandals to folklore and urban legends, Ashley explains why seemingly light stories often become powerful vehicles for social commentary. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week, Gare and I got to talk with the Ashley Winstead again, this time about Hot Girl Murder Club. You guys know what we love about Ashley. You know what we love about her books. But here's the synopsis for this one. When a string of high-profile murders raises suspicions about rising pop star Scout Sage, she's forced to clear her name while uncovering the truth behind her sister's suspicious death a decade later. As the investigation exposes long-buried crimes and corruption in Hollywood, Scout realizes the answer. she's been chasing could bring down some of the industry's most powerful people.

If you love Ashley Winstead books, you're going to love this. If you love rage, if you love female rage, if you love Hollywood, if you love kind of, you know, smashing the patriarchy as much as you can, you will love this and you will love even more the inspiration behind this book. So that being said, let's hear about it from Ashley. Well, it's time for, I was going to say, our annual amazing episode, but there are two this year. So it's not even annual anymore. So twice in one year, Gair and I are- Bless you guys for having me twice. Thank you. Oh, my God. I will always make time for my girl. I love you so much. Oh, yes. Yeah, I mean, if you, you keep putting two out, we'll keep reading and talking about two every year. Thank you. But this one,

I mean, everyone who's listening probably knows is called Hot Girl Murder Club. I mean, how does it get any of her? Stunning. And so fun, fun little tidbit for you, Ashley. Yesterday, we interviewed VA Vasquez, who is very much a part of the Ashley Winstead Stan Club. And so I think we just have lots of club things going on, Death Row Club, Hocker Murder Club, Ashley Winstead Fan Club.

There's a lot going on for July 14th. But she loves you so much. I've been talked about. So that was fun too. Thank you. Oh my God. You guys, I think, I'm sure I've told you before, that is my pitch wars mentee from years ago. Like, she is, I, the fact that she's blowing up in such a big way and debuting this year, I literally, I'm so emotional. Just thinking about it. I'm so proud of her. Yes. And she, like, I remember picking her first manuscript out of a slush pile of my pitch wars.

email and just her voice on the page. And this was a different book. But she has such a distinctive style. And it just was heads and shoulders above everyone else. Yeah. So she's, she's killing it. I love her. That's my baby. We're all interconnected. It was so cool. Yeah. I should probably stop saying, that's my baby or like that's my little, you know, because of like, she's a fully grown, she is. Adult woman. She's also. Actually, she kept calling herself a a baby writer. So it actually can't hear it. Yeah. She actually said it multiple times. Okay. Good. Then it's allowed. And I think that's this kind of friend you are too. Like, when we were in Montreal, I felt like Ashley Winstead's baby because like Ashley was like,

do you need water? Do you have to do? And she was like making sure that there were places that I could like eat wherever we were going. And I was like, oh my God. It was the best. It was the best. Well, with Hot Girl Murder Club. what like what got you going on this one like what was your info and also i feel like saying from the beginning i know like in your uh author's note or acknowledgments you were like hey y'all i wrote this before some of this was in the like actual site guys yeah so yeah yeah you want to talk about where where it started for you yeah it started um quite frankly out of some And, Gare, I apologize if you heard me talk about this in Montreal, but it started for me out of some pretty challenging discussions that I had with two entertainment executives, one from the film and TV world and one from publishing.

So I was working on a different kind of book. You know, it was honestly, Gary, you and I've talked about this over the years, but it was going to be my sorority vigilante book. Like I had this vision of a group of women who'd been in a sorority taken down a campus, rapist, like, years ago, got heralded as heroes for it, like, feminist icons, and then only to find out that they got the wrong guy and, like, all the aftermath of that. So I was working on that. And then I got the news in winter 2024, so that's where this all starts, that the last housewife. had been it had previously been greenlit to be a limited series at Netflix

and then it got yanked. It got cancelled. It disrupted a lot of people's lives like all the writers on the show the showrunner, people who had devoted years to this. And so everyone thought it was a sure thing.

So it was very jarring to kind of get the news that oh no, all of a sudden it's gone. and the showrunner called me and we had this like very long discussion about what happened and and essentially what it boiled down to she was telling me is that the you know the election had happened in November Trump had been reelected the political and cultural headwinds had shifted at least Netflix felt. They had cleaned the slate of executives,

cleaned a lot of executives out, which they are wants to do often. That's a place known for a lot of high turnover. And all the champions for Housewife had been let go. And the new executives who'd come in had a new mandate, which was people want escapism, people want to ostrich-like,

bury their heads in the sand, wait out four years, you know, live in a different place. And so, I mean, and so, like, things that confront reality in very hard reality, like sexual assault, like, you know, women, the terrible things that happen to women, there's no more appetite for that right now. And it was really interesting because that started to line up with other things I was seeing, like people saying, like, oh, me too, is over, you know? we're past that. There's huge push back to cancel culture. And then in the marketplace with publishing, the skyrocketing rise of romanty and romance and like this, this kind of desire in art and books to just be out of where we are, you know, to be in literally a different land. Or at least in a story where it's going to be safe and we can just concentrate on romance. Kind of predictable. Yeah. And I get all of that. I was feeling the exact same impulses. And part of the beautiful thing about books is they do let you escape. You know, like that that's one of their chief benefits. Yeah. So I'm still reeling from this. And I had this meeting with a publishing executive. And I won't name them to protect, you know, myself mostly.

I'll just say yourself. Yeah, myself mostly, but this editor was really interested in my work. And she ended up telling me, like, look, I really like you as a writer, but this thing that you're doing with, like, you know, feminist revenge stories or focusing really on women and justice, there's just no more appetite for that. So here I was hearing it again, that, like, this is. now the market's oversaturated, people have had enough. And so I really took it to heart. I think I had probably a week or so of this kind of like profound sorrow that we were in the

place that we were in, but also understanding, it was very hard to kind of parse how I was feeling. Right. And then out of that profound sadness emerged just like spite and defiance. Like I was like, okay, there's absolutely no way that we are done having this conversation. This is not where we have not solved this. This is not, you know, so we are not done telling stories like about this. So my challenge then for myself, because I like to set a new challenge with every book, was to write the exact kind of story that no one wants right now, which is this like feminist, revenge, retaliation.

call it post me to whatever um but do it in a way that is so escapist and compelling and frothy that people are sucked in anyway and so hollwood became my answer to that this is why you are I love that you're like fuck you I will yeah exactly both right and I feel like 2026 is the year I just wrote about this for a piece that I think is going to be in People magazine next week. I don't know if they say yes to it.

But 2026 is the year bucking everything that I was told from those executives where books, our books are like obsessed with women's place in the world right now. Yesterday year, all the trad wife

books. Just think about... Even like strangers, the memoir? Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And all these like badass deadly women in thrillers and mysteries and horror, you know. So I feel like artists and readers and writers are not done with this. Maybe tastemakers and people like in the political and commerce world are ready to move on. Yeah. Yeah. So that was the weird origin story of Hot Girl and Ritter Club. a very defiant kind of stake in the ground sort of book for me. Because both can exist. You can enjoy escapism and you can also have a big appetite for revenge.

Thank you. And for seeing the kind of cathartic justice and accountability, at least in fiction, that we're not getting in real life. Exactly. I also like love how you used your craft. to write your, like, your revenge against those conversations was writing about female revenge. Yeah. And that's like, I did not think about that. That is such an Ashley Winstead thing to do. I was about to, like, hop up out of my seat. I was like, are we in church?

Like, praise Ashley. I was like, take me to church, Ashley. Oh, I love you guys. No, I did not put those two things together. And then Gere and I are just like, oh my God. I'm like, this is why she's a fucking icon. like yeah that's amazing that is amazing to be like

because the thing is too is that like this oh my god it's so hard to talk about one of your books without spoiling anything but it's like trust me I get it at every book event I'm just like oh yeah but like it's so like

visually when you're reading it like it is dark and it is gritty but there's so much like beautiful Los Angeles weather and these like like, you know, beautiful outfits and like glamour and everything that's like kind of like, yeah, like candy coating all of this like darkness and stuff in it. So like you can definitely like, now that I've heard you like say that and like really like let it set in, it's kind of like,

okay, that was like a really good way to be like here's this like fun summer thriller about like these badass women. And then like the farther you get in the book like the darker it gets, but it's still like candy-coated horror at the end of the day. Thank you because it's like in the middle of it you're like oh fun stars and fame

and paparazzi and margaritas and then it's like it's just as possible are all like do our straight men like genetically corrupt do we have to get rid of all of them and then it's like whoa girl

I know it's not all men but always a man so yeah sorry to all this straight men A boy and a woman carrying water for the patriarchy if we want to really get into the asterisk of it. That's exactly it. Yeah. So how did you land on like your characters for it?

Obviously it was coming from like an emotional place. How did you decide on the characters? Where did it come to you? Well, the character architecture kind of I took from that the sorority thriller that I was working on. Oh, yeah. Because I knew that I wanted to write a kind of a big group. Like I wanted another ensemble cast the way that in my dreams had gone. I really like doing that.

Or I guess I should say I like changing it up. I've done some very like intense single person focus inward looking books recently. Like this book will bury me and midnight is the darkest hour. so I was ready for camp. I was ready for a return to a kind of larger ensemble cast. And I am someone for better or worse, a girl

who was shaped by books like babysitters clubs, Sweet Valley High, like Christopher Pike books with like groups of girls getting into danger. I love a found family of

girlfriends and just that sort of trope in books and film. Anytime it's like the craft, any coven, you know, it's like anytime there's a group of women who are doing something, I'm like, ooh, tell me more. Which ones? Yeah, which one's a sporty one?

Who's sporty spice? Who's baby? You know, I'm like, I want that. So clearly I'm a product of like the 90s and early 2000s, but I wanted to write characters that felt like that. like they they were separate and individuals but like together more than the sum of their parts and so I knew even though many years ago I promised myself I would never write a police procedural because you know I just I don't need to be like doing that thing I have no business doing that I knew that I wanted a law enforcement character and so I want because I wanted like the

investigator, the accused, and the interlobors. Like, I had these, I was thinking of the characters almost in an, no, not, I conographic way. Did I say that? You know, almost like tarot card figures. Right. Like playing, and I was thinking of them that way, because the way that I frame this book, Hawk Girl Murder Club, the way that I was thinking about it, that really excited me was like almost as a myth or a history with a really like bird's eye view. And I will admit that the first few drafts of Hot Girl Murder Club were, are even more pronounced. Like those parts are more pronounced. So I was deeply, are you talking about the historian who's kind of like explaining it?

There's more of that. In the first few drafts, and this is a creative battle that I lost between me and my editor. I would have read more of it. Well, thank you. The book was set in like 2075. Okay. So the present was set in 2075. The listeners are probably like already like, yeah, your editor made a great.

I mean, I know why. I can't, I grab my head around it. I would love it. And the history, because the book is framed with excerpts, interstitials from a history dissertation. It was originally a book. And the book was published in 2105. Oh, I love that. It was very Handmaid's Tale where, you know, at the end, you find out that you've just read

history. And I really liked that. And it was also very inspired by Dune. Oh, yeah. Because I love the mythic feel of Dune, the way that when you read the book Dune, every chapter starts with an excerpt of the princess's history books. If you, that's a deep cut, but just setting. I got very obsessed with Dune, so I'm with you. I, yes.

And I just, from a craft perspective. Yeah. The way that that allows you to set the stakes in such a fast economical way for your reader is so attractive. Because it's like, you know, you understand that what you're about to read in present time is going to have all these reverberations for a larger story. So anyway, I was thinking about the characters as players and chess pieces in a history. So, you know, like the, I guess the instigator, the rising star, the whatever. Yeah. And so that's kind of how what informed.

Oh, yeah. And that's kind of how you named them. Name them in the story. In the chapter kind of titles. The characters, it's like you said, like it'll say a character neighbor, the rising star. So you really did put it in there. Yeah. Yeah.

Because I, I, then that's that like, take. a step back, who are they to history more than as individual. It does read like narrative nonfiction was one of the things that I I love to go that. There's obviously more dialogue and description probably than most. But

it reminded, I mean like Isabel Wilkerson is like one of my new faves. I'm listening to the warmth of other sons right now. So that's probably why. I'm thinking of that. But she does such a good job of stuff like that. But also I squeeze in two random, random things. You were talking, not even

random two things you were talking about females like and women coming together in sisterhood and how powerful that is and that was what when i saw sally hepworth about mad mabel she was talking about a really similar thing where she went through her divorce and it was like oh my girlfriends are my best friends in life and they do know me the best and like wow how did i like kind of not notice that there is this deep love over here too that's like its own thing so to your point that there are more books that are centering the rage and also how women need each other to get through it. It is happening in 2026 because that obviously came out in April. And then I just interviewed Molly Fader yesterday. I'm so excited for Lady X. It's so good. It's so good. You're

going to love that. Yeah. Okay. She is hilarious and just cute and fun. And she was amazing. but she also was talking about sisterhood it's the same thing there's a vigilance nature to that story as well she might need to do something together i feel like you should so much in conversation your book covers both have like kind of pink and purple incorporated with it too it would be fun well you will both be on the book wild i guess that's my yes that's my contribution but our connective tissue yeah but it's i'm it's because i'm having a lot of interviews. This is why I just have like so much to also now say. But she was talking about sisterhood. It made me think, I don't know, Bell Hooks in communion are all about love. I can't

remember which one. She talks about how some of the most romantic love that women and girls can have in their lifetime is with other women. And like that's why sometimes it's so intoxicating at the beginning of a relationship because you're like, oh my gosh, like you understand this about me. you understand this and there's like the whole they don't need anything from you in the way that like a marriage works okay to kind of need different things so that was in lady x so it's like that's our that's like another book where where we're proving your 2026 like no the hunger is there for this book um and then coincidentally she uses interstitials and was talking about how fun they were for info dumps so like we're just having all of the same page and I wrote about I name checked her and

lady X in my people piece oh nice yeah shout out you will love her yeah she has a podcast that I just learned called day drinking with authors and I'm like excuse me what how did I not know about this wait did you guys ever see the Andy Sandberg playing Nick Cage on Saturday Night Live where he, do you remember this? It feels like I do. Oh my God. He was like one of his most famous impersonations of Nicholas. It was like this recurring bit.

He'd go on Seth Meyer's weekend update as Nicholas Cage. And he would look ridiculous and have like the hair missing from the middle of his head. Yes. And he would just be like, yeah, I'm in every movie. Blah, blah, you know. I like making fun of Nicholas Cage. But his tagline was always like, how am I not in this movie? And I just feel like I channeled Andy Sandberg.

Wow. Am I old? No. I loved Andy Samberg. I knew once you started explaining my brain just had to catch up. Yeah. There's a lot. I think it's cool that you were so angry that you wrote this book as a way to be like,

hey, it exists. And then it's like calming or uplifting or whatever to be like, there were some other women that were like, no, I think I'm going to write this. Oh, yeah. No, so many of us. We are all just like. And they're all very different for the record. Like having read all very different mentioned.

Yeah. I mean, I would even put helpless, which I'm starting to read now, kind of in the category of a book that is at the very least interested in women's dark proclivities and complicated desires. And like the ugliness of women that bucks, you know, kind of. traditional stereotypes. And I think we're interested this year in particular in seeing ugly, dark, sharp-toothed, sharp-clod women, you know, in a way that maybe, you know, we haven't been in the past. So I would even lump Jessica Knowles book, you know, in with this.

I'm not going to get started. I'm just driving everyone in putting it in my category with me. I won't say anything about it because I will get a most. emotional, but Supergirl falls into this in a really beautiful way. And that's all I'm saying. I'm going to stop my house. Also, I'm asking all the questions. So I need to pull back. No, this is fantastic. Okay. I didn't want to keep talking over you. No, no. I was going to say, too, that I think the thing that you probably don't realize that you did this is all of the like the one of the big words of 2026. is lore, right? And, like, exploring, like, urban legends and things like that. And, like, you and I growing up in the same time of, like, every urban legend, every, like, folklore, everything was always about women being put in positions where they were

afraid of men, right? Like, the man who had the hook in the door when the couple was making out or the guy that keeps calling the babysitter. And, like, all of these urban legends. And the thing that I loved about Hot Girl Murder Club is, you know, you know, you know, you're creating in your own universe this folklore of these women that were making men afraid. So like you kind of in your own way in this universe, like created the first urban legend where the women were the ones to be afraid of.

And I think that's like on top of like why you came up with the idea for this and what, you know, generated the spark to create such like an amazing world is like just the cherry on top to be like these, not only is this just like a, like, what was the rumor about like Richard gear in a gerbil? Do you remember this? Is he, is his the juror? I was just saying, is his the gerbil? Yeah. Everybody. How do I not know this? There was a rumor like this huge Hollywood thing in like the 90s where like Richard gear put a gerbil up his butt. Uh-huh. There's nothing. There's nothing to it. There's like literally like I just think somebody like was drunk or high and was like I bet Richard Gear has put a gerval of his button and like everybody's it just took off right and it was this huge

rumor and like it's just insane to me that like there's always that weird celebrity gossip that's in that sense right like Richard Gear allegedly did this or like this person's bad to work with or this person was blacklisted for this reason and like you weren't just like Here's the singer who, like, has a shady past and, like, people think this about her. You were like, these are women to actually be fucking afraid of. Like, if you are a toxic straight male, you're hiding out of the covers. You're hiding out of the covers. Yeah.

Like, the ladies are coming. It was, like, a witch hunt for problematic men, and I fucking devoured it. Thank you. Pop culture coven is what I'm. taking you on my book tour with me because you have made me in my book sound so cool. You are so cool. I'd fucking quit. I'd fucking quit.

I would be the cheapest assistant ever. I would be like, all I need is a nap and Taco Bell. And it would mean the company. Oh, well, it will happen. Yes. Not me just reliving my phone over here. Because it was,

because it was. I know. Okay, so then, so then like the rest, okay, my brain was glitching there. So the book is about Scout, but we are never in Scouts, POV. And I have, that is another thing that I am like eating up. I really enjoy it. And I think authors use that device for multiple different reasons. What was the reason for you, though? Thank you for noticing. that and because that was really big for me. I really wanted to write a book that's centered around a star and you never get inside of her head. So I was thinking about scout sage um for listeners who is the star who is accused of of murder who you're wondering about a lot of things throughout the

course of this book, you never really know what she's going to do. So there was that, the utility of keeping the reader outside of her interiority, her point of use, so that she could retain like a certain level of unpredictability. So just from a craft level that let me do that. But I came into this book thinking about Scout as a modern-day Pattyhurst. So this, this, you know, beautiful young heiress for anyone unfamiliar with Patty's story who was kidnapped by the SLA, a terrorist group, and everyone was so afraid for her. And then she showed up in bank footage from robberies, holding guns and firing guns and participating with her captors. And it became this huge scandal about how she'd been turned to the counterculture, blah, blah, blah.

And so I, and I studied Patty Hurst in school as part and parcel of this like white, this, this course on narratives about like, saviors and white saviors and the fragility of young white women. and how so much of American myth-making is strangely wrapped, well, not strangely, very obviously, wrapped up in issues of race and gender, and how in the tropic, like, myth of the innocent white woman. Pure, white, girl. Pure, unsullied, you know, virginal, all the things, is really rooted and tied in so much.

of like the myths that we've built about like who Americans are and how we came to be as a country and what makes Americans, you know, inherently superior and all these things, like all these myths. Anyway. Excellent myths. Yeah, all of these, yeah, American exceptionalist myths. And so I've been fascinated by Patty Hearst and like how she fucked these things up for a lot of people. It is a really great. Yeah, she's a great example. And I think the thing that is so also interesting about Patty Hurst is she later testified that, you know, she was like terrible things did happen to her.

And she was kind of like going along with what she was doing. They're kind of, you know, what's calling it Stockholm syndrome, right? A little bit Stockholm syndrome. But then there was conflicting evidence later. And so there's like very little settled on what exactly was going through Patty's mind. And I don't ever want there to be like more clarity. I love the fact that maybe it's a lot of things and it's more complicated than, you know, victim aggressor. And so I really wanted Scout to have that sort of. inscrutability, have the question be open for the reader, martyr or villain?

You know, like in making these decisions of her own free will because she's some brilliant strategist with a bigger agenda or, you know, pawn in other people's games. So I think that was one of the central mysteries that I was excited about creating for the leader alongside like who killed you know who killed Georgia who killed the you know various other murder victims yeah it's this ongoing question mark of like what does she scout up to and why can't I pin her down yeah it also when you were talking about how like you kind of like that the patty her stuff like we can't know there are things that like drive me nuts because because we want to know which is kind of like Some of the this book will bury me theming to like those of us who struggle with not being able to know.

It kind of brings up how weird, how conflicted. I feel about Lena Dunham and I'm not like going to like drift all the way there. But like she's been controversial. I would say that there's one very obvious thing where she didn't handle a PR situation well and did kind of. doubt a woman who is complaining of sexual assault. That's not a great look. Her PR firm put out the statement and she kind of maintains that she didn't see it before it went out. I don't know how I feel about it.

I don't know what I think. But I don't think it's great that that came from her PR. So that's like the main one. And then some people get hung up on like she didn't include enough other races in girls. And so that's not representative of New York City. that's another one she has these like weird things that people are like is she a um is she a really like uh out of touch white feminist yep or is she just a person who sometimes says things and like none of us would get all of our feminist takes right if we were trying so that is a lot

of the zeitguists about her and it was making me think of that when you said that because i listened to fame sick. I cried so much. There were so many things that like I was like, I've never seen someone write about this. And which is crazy. My life is nothing like hers. But women like having to overwork and working through like chronic illness and stuff. Like deeply moved me in ways I was not expecting and I finish it. And I'm like, but also it's done them. And then I'm like, it's okay.

I don't have to like have all of the answers about it to be fascinated by. someone and like in the in your book we have that same remove from um scout because we can't we're never going to have access to like all of the information and i do think it's i think it's a cool story-telling approach i i love that and a you've made me now want to go read fame sick or listen to it yeah yeah i was driving wow okay that's a huge i feel like that's a huge i feel like that's a wreck from you. Yeah. And also, I too have conflicted feelings about Lena for all the reasons.

But I do feel like she's having quite a renaissance right now. I think fame sick did better than anyone expected. I think so, too. I think that all of the people that she's had beef with who she historically has not said the greatest things about, things are slowly coming out. like maybe prove her narrative a little more relatable and true. Yeah, I think so. Interesting. She also has really intense OCD and really intrusive thoughts. Like that was something I connected with. And so I'm not trying to say I'm not as weird as her. She will say some really weird

stuff that's uncomfortable for people. And mine doesn't work that way. But I do know what it's like to just have like a lot to have OCD making you so anxious that you're overthinking things. And then I understand how that can progress into like really saying some weird shit. I'm not we're not here to glorify her or anything. Like it's just it's messy. Well, it's just, it's fascinating because that's another thing that I was really interested in with the book. It's just like how these ideas about people, I know you and I, Kate, are obsessed with parisocial relationships and all the weirdness and psychology of them. but these like strangers or figures in the news or or in Hollywood that we all feel like we know so much about and have like an intimacy with and yet have never met.

Like the way that they shape shift over time and go from being, you know, like persona non grata like Lena to like overlooked, you know, muse to like truth teller. who is now vindicated, just all of that. And really what has changed other than different kinds of storytelling. And, you know, I don't know. It reminds me of reality TV, too, where like any time you're in a villain edit, villain edit, you'll hear, like, the veteran reality stars saying, like, just wait a season. Like, just wait a season. Like, it'll be totally different because someone else will do something.

And then like some people will forget about these like really specific details. So the parasycial part, yes, you and I could talk about it forever. I think it also like brings in the really strong conversation of like celebrity cancel culture especially. Because like there are, which is another thing that I loved about Hot Girl Murder Club is because two of the things that annoy me the most when it comes to like cancel culture and celebrities is like people want to. cancel Lena Dunham or start a conversation with her about their, you know, not being enough people of color in her show. Whereas if she would have had them, some of those characters would have been very problematic to have a person of color play. But also, like, there are so many other shows that are getting their Renaissance moments where they have like a strong, mostly white

cast and not that it's, you know, not that they couldn't use some diversity. But, like those shows aren't being talked about, right? Like right now, people are, some people get a pass on. Yes, like people want to, people want to have a conversation and like talk shit about Lena Dunham, but like they don't do it with this show because like this show is like America sweetheart or, you know, they're not as. Yes, exactly.

Like, everybody loves friends and they talk about it all the time. And. You're getting to the point of how she's someone who, she is a magnet for this kind of hate. I think is what you're pointing at. Yeah. But it's like, and women are, young women especially. And women who are,

are considered to be like, oh, they're genius beyond their years or, or, you know, they're getting gifted something, like an opportunity that is undeserved or something like that. And it's also like...

Those are going to be lightning rods. Yeah. And it's also like people have been, like, criticizing her of her weight and the things that she said and things like, and that she's not like conventionally pretty. But then there are women who have six foot tall legs and are like blonde and beautiful. And they have all white friends and like people just kind of give them that pass as well. And my other thing that I hate with celebrity cancel culture is like when people call out celebrities.

And instead of like being like like there's examples about a popular singer that I'm not even going to mention her name. but like she didn't speak out against ice or she hasn't spoken up against Trump or she hasn't said anything about her political stance really and instead of people being like oh you know I wish she would speak out because you can still like somebody and not necessarily agree with everything that they do right right oh yeah but instead of being like this person I wish this person would speak out against this I wish she would et cetera et cetera it's well your favorite doesn't right so like then you bring in the other female singer that's very popular and you're like, well, she doesn't talk about politics either.

And it's like, you're, now you're pointing to. Are you here for the common good or are you just being mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like, now you're pinning two women against each other.

Right. That don't need to be that are very supportive of one another. And it's like in that book, you didn't do that with Scout. And that was like something that I like love so much. Like a lot of like the commentary about her as a celebrity wasn't like, oh, like, because there were people that were like scouts a fucking murderer. Like she's not a good person.

She's like X, Y, and Z. But there was no conversation of being like, well, your favorite did this or like, you know, this person did this. Because that's what's really exhausting. So I thought it was very interesting that you showed the people who had their very strong opinions and the keyboard warriors who don't care what they say without necessarily like pinning other women against each other. I think that was done. That was a rule for myself. when I was writing this book, is that all the people who are going to end up, this might be a spoiler for anyone listening,

but all the people who are going to end up, like, being villainous or were the ones who were comfortable pitting women against women or, you know, like attacking other women. And my heroes, like the women who were going to be consistent heroes throughout the book, I refuse to let them do that except for in like historical moments where it was very obvious that they were being shitty and that they were gonna like grow and experience the consequences of that

but the people who are villains throughout the whole thing just never have that growth period and can I just say to the to what you said Gere about Lena I strongly suspect that so much of the disdain and contempt for Lena is the fact that she is a woman in a larger body who isn't conventionally beautiful and had the gall and the audacity to be naked on television to be seen as well when this came out like I think she made people lose their ever-loving minds because, you know, us women, you know, if you're not perfect in every way, how dare you be

comfortable? You know, and I keep saying us women, though, I pay your penance if you're ugly. Right. Yeah. Experience your shame. Good Lord, woman. You should be ashamed. Hide yourself. Yeah. And I do think this, you know, men experience this too. I don't mean to keep being like, oh, this is a woman only problem. Um, but just. people are just so comfortable talking about it when it comes to women that it ends up kind of dominating the discourse. It does. Yeah. I think that men do experience it.

I agree with you on that. But I don't think that a lot of men are shamed for it. No. That's interesting. My dad bod became a. Yeah, that is true. Like, I don't have abs. I technically have a dad bodd still at this point.

But like, also. It doesn't work for a girl. If you're watching a show or a movie and. there is a man who's like stockier or whatever the case may be has like a dad bod. If he comes on, it's a laughable moment, right? To see like a man that doesn't have six pack to be, it's a comedic relief, right? And when you have a character that Lena plays that is a bigger body and it's not the plot line of I'm trying to lose weight, I'm, you know, trying to get comfortable in my

skin. It's just she is. And you know she is. She's not ashamed of it. she's not trying to hide anything. And I think that's what pissed people off. I do. That's what piss people off.

I think that's so much of it. It's so fascinating. So whenever I feel squeamish about her, and obviously she has done things, like you said, she's done some legitimately weird stuff where you want to be like, girl, no, bad. That was not great. Yeah. But still, I always come back when I feel squeamish about her to try to interrogate what. What's the root of that?

Is it because I swallowed so much of that, like, misogyny or what people were saying about her in the past? Yeah. And it's also okay to just have things that are uncomfortable about her, but you don't have to just completely be done with her. That's like, yeah. It's just so weird. Like, there are things I've done there, like, there are memes about waking up at 3 a.m. remembering that really embarrassing thing you did, like, five years ago. I mean, I thought it was a human experience that everyone has.

Yes. We just aren't. That's the other thing is people forget, I think, through parisocial relationships, forget that our lives, even me and however many podcasts I put out this month, that is not really an invasion on my privacy. Like, I am not actually living publicly just because I do have a mic. microphone in front of me. So it's like if it if there's a meme that we all wake up with things we're embarrassed about there's going to be embarrassing things about other people too.

Yeah. Because everybody's under the microscope in Hollywood and like we are yeah. I just come here and yell about books. I know and like I'm very selective about what I put out too. Obviously I take years to craft like my messages and then I'm like far beat for me to be like oh, was that knee-jerk response this person gave to a paparazzi so terrible. It's like they didn't even spend a year editing it and it's like okay girl. Right. But this is not a groundbreaking thing to say, but I, it's just the level of like elementary school childish dynamics that exist on the internet. Yeah. Which unfortunately has come to be the bulk of so, many of our like connections with other people.

Right. This is like where the bulk of our conversation is happening now in this elementary school playground where you were right like, Gare, when you were saying, well, your favorite doesn't do this or your, in mind. Yeah. It's like that just sounds like little kids arguing. And I don't know how everything I read about where we're going as a people. And this was also in my head with Hot Girl Murder Club.

There's a lot. There's an interesting evolutionary anxiety thread through Hot Girl Murder Club, like Easter eggs for people. But everything I read is like, oh, people's attention spans increasingly short or now down to 5.2 seconds. I know. It's in the single digits. Or like more kids reporting.

no interest in reading and lack of reading literacy or you know i'm just saying the things that i encountered recently but just all these things that make me are our evidence that we are just kind of doubling down on where we are now and the kind of trends that were and it just makes me worried and as a creator of media long form content long form content And I understand that all of this has consequences for what I create and how it's going to be received and my livelihood and, you know, all these things. And so I just, I don't have like an answer or anything for just that I'm wrestling with it. Yeah. Yeah.

And I don't know. Yeah, I don't know how much longer we're going to be able to have like nuanced. long form conversations. I know. I don't mean to be like an alarm. No, I know what you mean. I think it's why it's important to still do it. I think it's like in terms of you reading or you writing stuff and readers reading. So like obviously we feel like we are in a bubble of readers and writers because of like you write and we talk about books that we read. Yeah. So we do know. that those people are there. And I do think if we could,

the ones of us who do love reading already are proof that we do have long attention spans. Like I have days where I'm like, oh yeah, I don't have a great attention span. But like I do find hope in the amount of friends and people I have been able to find that do seem to be able to read still. Which is like, how are, how am I saying that? So it's like, I do think we could,

I wonder, I wonder if there are more women. to find the right book for some other people who don't realize that there are so many different things you could read about. And like, maybe we can get some more people that way by being like, no, you don't have to read nonfiction to like be smart. You don't have to. Right. You get like some of that dumb genre war stuff. And so like one of my solutions is like maybe we can help more people find like the really subgenre that all of a sudden they do enjoy because reading will expand your attention span so that's my thank you for playing the optimist with an action plan to my alarmist with existential dread it's okay like i'm alternating between them you know it's one of the

one of the assumptions that i approached hawk girl murder club with um was that and i actually say this in a line in one of the dissertation interstitials where is that the possibility for political action is dead

you know that it's over that's like one of the one of the like operating assumptions that I came to the book and the the question was then well then how do you resuscitate or you know a dead thing

and is there anything possible out there that could restart this or or inspire something that seems like there's no will or interest in it anymore? Right. Which is like political action or social outcry or whatever you want to throw in there. Mutual aid is like as a concept. Beautiful. It gives you hope. And this, my answer. which I think a lot, you know, it's problematic is that the only people capable of inspiring high levels of passion in people anymore are like the people who populate Hollywood or the people who sit at the top of the attention empire.

Yes. like the attention pyramid because those, I mean, that's like the economy we live in right now is an attention economy. And I know that it's really deflating to think like, you know, a politician maybe couldn't muster this level, you know, whatever level of action. And then I'm like, no, this can't possibly be true. I'm too pessimistic. And I'm like, oh, my God, Donald Trump.

was a celebrity. You know, like all these other people who people are like pitching as potential candidates. It's like we're kind of just folding and accepting that this is true. And I don't know. This is just like a thought experiment. Hawk Girl Murder Club is a thought is a thought experiment. Yeah. What would have.

It is not useful for the people. There are other things have to arise essentially. You should, I have the rest of the dissertation that I wrote from, Franny's point of view in my draft wonder there's a lot more of those stuff in there I could tell because I of course I love those parts I'm like

yes this was in those parts I yeah no there was I had I did recounts of political rallies I did all sorts of things okay I will read them if you ever like the slogans that like became big in 2017 oh girl I see

The vision. I feel the vision. It was this whole revolution. And I had to even take out the word revolution. Well, you know, that's... You did it. You got the book out that, like, you thought someone's told you wouldn't work. But you got it out because you did the frothy parts too. So that's subversive and wonderful. Which I do genuinely love. So not to say that, like,

the delicious Charles Dickens very famously his adage about writing because he used to release stories serially in magazines back in the 19th century

and he would say you have to give people pieces of bacon so there's the meat and the fat and then the meat and the fat and you have to like you can't just shove a bunch of meat in people

and things we have to weave it together with the fat to make it delicious and have people. But I'm not saying that the froth is just pure fat because I actually think I mean fat but I also think that like

unsurious frothy soapy things can do a lot of important work. Oh yeah. Do like I'm a big proponent of gossip and the fact that gossip is important cultural work. Yes. And it serves the sociological.

Gossip was branded as gossip because men didn't want other women talking about the bad men and what they were doing. There was like a point in history. And there's an audiobook people to listen to called Did You Hear? Or something like, did she tell you? And it's a whole nonfiction book about the way that we decided on gossip and like we're safer when we gossip. Bring in the receipts. I love it. Now, I need to find that in a much drier, more boring version of that.

In literary theory and, like, language studies. Yeah. There's a scholar named Mikhail Bakhtin. I name check him in Hot Girl America Club. But he's very famous for studying Russian Revolution and the role that gossip and and satire and parody play because the underclass, like, peasants. Yes. first started to gain like the kind of cognitive like the ability their like their art

expressed what they were what was they were and and creating parody of the aristocratic class yes and their habits was a way to get some intellectual you know an emotional distance and yeah and be able to be subversive with one another it's like it's like the root of revolution It was the argument of this really famous study and so that has always like to believe so into all of this. Yeah, large my heart.

Everything about that is very dry tomes. There's no cool. Someone needs to write like a cool digestible version. Maybe I will. Yes. This all fascinates me.

Yeah. That's where you get the real stories. But Ashley's a very busy lady. I just realized what time it is we're just you guys i could talk to you forever i know that is just the lesson of every time that i hang out with you yes i know it's so fun i mean so fun you just keep writing books that lend themselves to good discussions yeah i i will do my best and i will also say my next book um won't be out until summer 2028 because of you know we're pushing skit publishing skit publishing skis

schedules back a little bit. So, and my next, sorry, 2027 next summer. And my next thriller won't be out until 2028. So I basically, I will have to find other excuses to come talk to you. Multiple times a year and, I mean, I will do an episode about FAMSIC with you. So, ooh, okay. We'll find things. I love it. I will give a little nugget of information that I know what the next book is and you guys are not going to want to miss out on this. Yeah, of course. Thank you. I feel like it was written for me. Summer 20207 is going to be hot gear.

I just feel like I need to send it to you so you can like punch it up and make it even sharper and messier than I can even dream and think. If you ever need any help being messy or. or toxic or anything that you need. Are those the most fun things to think about? Nessie, toxic or bitchy? I'm here for you. Yeah. I love it.

Those are my favorite elements of the books to write too. But sometimes I'm like, I think it could be better. How do I figure this out? Use the one for that. Yeah. I love it. Before I go to bed at night, I watch about a half hour to an hour of TikTok of like how men, or I'm sorry, how women rage bait men.

or like some of the revenge things that women have done to men. And I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God. That's so good. And then I like, how do I incorporate this in my life? And then I, well, but I'm like thinking to myself, I'm like, okay, so if I started a TikTok account and I said like some of the things that I've done to men or said to them, like, would I be canceled or would I be praised?

Praise. A thousand percent. Yes. I would spend time on TikTok for that. TikTok scares me I don't do that a lot because I just like feels overwhelming because anytime I'm on TikTok

I'm like should I be doing book stuff on TikTok no we're here to watch video you know it's just like that I would I would spend time watching that yeah okay well I'll think about well everybody go by hot girl murder club okay yes and you can talk to us about it love you guys so much Thank you for amazing questions and conversation always.

And I will talk to you again soon.