Bookwild - Power, Greed, and the Dark Side of Utopia: Zac Canon's Stillwater Trace

Episode Date: July 7, 2026

In this episode, I chat with Zac Cannon about his new speculative thriller Stillwater Trace! Listen to hear about: How a "dad action movie" premise transformed into a layered thriller exploring faith, power, surveillance, and belonging—and why Zac let the story evolve far beyond his original concept. The real-world inspirations behind Stillwater Trace, from corporate master-planned communities and culture wars to religious deconstruction, and how current events shaped the novel without making it feel tied to one moment in time. The craft of writing cinematic suspense, including how Zac's screenwriting background influences his novels, why he physically acts out action scenes, and how character—not spectacle—ultimately drives the story. Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with Zach Cannon about his speculative thriller Stillwater Trace. If you love books about seemingly utopian places that are absolutely not utopian, this one is going to be for you. Our main character, Mack, who has been separated from his wife, goes to this town where she's living or this community where she's living to reconnect with his family. And once he's there, he starts to realize there are some really strange things. about this seemingly utopian community. This book dives into modern surveillance, politics, religion,

what happens when those two joined forces for control and for greed, and really is quite timely. And even some of the things that happen in the book, he wrote before very similar events happened at present. So if you love social thrillers, if you love thrillers that really examine power structures, then I think you're really, really going to enjoy Stillwater Trace. That being said, let's hear from Zach.

I am super excited to dive into Stillwater Trace, but I do love to get to know a little bit about the author before we dive into the book. So I know you have, you went to film school, you've been involved in all kinds of different like storytelling mediums even, but did you always know you wanted to write or how, what was that journey like for you? Yeah, I think it comes down to like, I was on a walk a couple of days ago and thinking about how I used to play with action figures. And I would write the story that I was going to then so it wasn't so much that I was acting it out in real time. I would like prepare the backstories and stuff and so much so that like I remember my brother and my friends being like they would just disappear because I would write all these intricate little things.

And I think stories have just been a part of my life. And I talk to myself all the time also. I used to. Yeah. But telling myself stories about like what's going on and everything. So yeah, I think stories have always been a way for me to both process reality and disassociate and kind of keep those things in tension. And I think that as I've looked over my work the past couple of years, I feel like I

I can see that even in in the work that I've produced. So yeah, stories of they're just they're just old friends at this point. And I love reading. I love movies. And that's both my escape and by just kind of a comfort zone as well. Yeah. I think it's a good point because it does, I'm the same where like books and movies and TV shows help me process stuff. But it also does have there's also like, but if you need to escape stuff,

you can escape stuff too even if like it's obviously still water trace even deals with some very like heavy and timely topics but you're still like in another world's version of it so it's kind of nice to not be like literally in your own sometimes um with with like film school and movies and films versus writing novels how do you think how do you think like how do you think those kind of intertwine for you. Yeah. So I feel like I'm learning how to write as I write and I started this, you know, I've written my whole life and I write something every single week for some reason, but that's going to be in front of people and to be read, that's a different type of creative process. As much as we don't want to talk about it, there is a part of like, well,

someone will read this. And with that will come assess. call that judgment or not. So when I first started writing, again, during the pandemic, with the goal of, I'm going to do something with this. It was a script. And scripts are not documents that are supposed to be read for fun, but I try to make it as fun as I could. And that script got some traction. And I was like, oh, well, maybe I, maybe I could lean into this. So the learning process from translating that script into a novella and these two novels have been, okay, what are the techniques from screenwriting that I enjoy and that I employ? But how do I better understand myself as a writer for the page and to internalize some of that stuff? And so that's been the learning that and seeing that trajectory and that growth has been really, really fun actually.

Yeah, that's awesome. But I have all the same old, you know, all the skills, all the, all the plotting stuff is all the same. But finding deeper ways into characters has been, you know, you can't, you can only see and hear in screen versus, you know, what are you thinking? And what's, what's the backstory? And that's been really fun. Yeah, unless you go like full, like, almost like noir where you have them narrating everything in their head. I just started season one of sugar on Apple TV, so I'm like in the noir headspace as well. Yeah.

But I also, I interviewed someone a couple days ago. His name is Arvind, Ethan David, and he wrote The Great Game. And it comes out, I think, a week after years. But he wrote basically historical fiction where like there's a character in 1905 London who starts like, who gets pulled into, I'm like over-experienced. it but who gets pulled into like investigating a case and like cross his past with Sherlock Holmes. So it has all these fun like elements to it. But he came from mostly like being a playwright or screenwriting as well. And he was talking about that how like he like really loves one of these scenes. And he was like they're like at lunch and like everyone's kind of like sparring with each other verbally.

And it's like really fantastic. And he was like super proud of it and send it to his editor. And his editor was like, what are they doing? though. And he was like, what do you mean? And she was like, what are they doing like in between talking and like what are they eating? Like you need to like remind us where we are. And like, it's directing. It's yeah. All right. Well, the things that you're not supposed to do in a screenplay, you're actually encouraged to do in an office. Yeah. It's so fascinating hearing those differences because they obviously make sense. But if you've never tried writing either of them, you don't think of like what those differences are. But the interiority,

in novels that's i've talked about a couple of times on here like it's it's really hard to reach the same level of interiority which i think is kind of what you were saying with film or tv shows yeah i just still from myself like i'm just like well this character's not me but like what where can i go inside to find this stuff and yeah a lot of that is just cribbing from my own trauma but i get that well with this one i saw in your acknowledgments that that you or your yeah there's an acknowledgments or an author's known at the end um afterward that's what it is um you talked about how like you started writing this and you kind of thought it was going to be like die hard in the suburbs and then it kind of evolved into its own thing so

i guess that was your initial inspiration point but like how did the story kind of move toward what it became yeah so that you know i was in a bit of a writing slump uh with about a thousand works in progress. Like, you know, I have so many first acts, so many first 3,000 words. And I couldn't get one to stick. And my dad had visited, and we had watched some dad movie, right? Like some Jason Statham, something or another.

And I just remember going like, you know what? Like, I'm just going to shoot for that. Like, if I can do that for fun, maybe break this writing slump. And so it was just, divorced dad sees something crazy happening and he has to choose between family and this mystery that he gets

that was the initial like pitch in my head but it was just going to be as straight down the line dad movie was the working title and so there wasn't going to be this depth to the extent that it went with some of the themes and ideas so I started writing

and, you know, first couple of chapters just laying out backstory, figuring out who these characters were, didn't have the neighborhood yet, didn't have Bethany Barnes yet. And so those two things came, and then pieces started clicking into place. So I was on TikTok because I'm always on TikTok, and I saw this really weird ad for this independent, like, school district

slash town in Texas. And it was like, come here where we teach history the right way. And it was, I was like, okay, that's, I'm going to, let's lead into that. And then, so that started to kind of create the world of Stillwater Trace. And then once I got to chapter six, and I really started to figure out, like Bethany Barnes in my head started out as one type of character that was going to fulfill a certain role in the story, but once I, once she told me who she was, I actually had to sit with the book for a second and go, am I going to go to this place with these characters? And I was like, yeah, let's see what happened. And then from there, the book kind of just became, it told me what it wanted to be. And I just kept saying, okay. And went for the

ride. And there's still a few of those action movie things I wanted to hit along the way, but it really isn't, it lost that DNA, but that was the beginning. It, it, I mean, it has the, it's, it has that DNA, especially more in like the third act, I would say. But yeah, it is a little more, there's like more emotional character work than they're typically, then they're typically, then you typically get with like Jason State the movies like you were referencing. Um, did you ever watch the good place? Yeah, I have seen probably all of season one and then clips here and there. Yeah.

Because I, I loved that show so much. But it was, oh, and now I can't even think of what her name is. It's not the same thing because Bethany Barnes is much, much more dark in some ways. Janet, that's what I'm thinking of. But like the, the woman who's kind of behind everything happening at the good place, she was like, who came to mine for? for me when we like meet Bethany even though it's not exactly the same. But that's kind of how she started in my head and then she just, she evolved and I was like, I don't like you at all.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gina has a little more like humor to her and I won't spoil anything about the good place in case people haven't seen that as well because it's also very exciting for season to watch with, um, I guess, I guess speaking of Bethany, so the, the town that Rachel, Rachel lives in, who is his, well, they're separated. They're not divorced yet, correct?

Right. But he goes to visit his family who's living in this new, this new town that seems really utopian. But then there's like this guest services element, which is kind of where like Bethany's a big, part of that. And there's like an eerie. I'm trying not, we, we know there's something eerie going on in the town. I'm trying not to spoil anything, but we know there's something going on. And the whole guest services thing and how they kind of like new things that were happening also really reminded me of like Panopticon kind of stuff like always watching you. So what was it like developing that? I thought the, I thought the name was really cool too, like calling it guest services. It sounds so

helpful, but it's actually kind of invasive surveillance. So what was that like developing it? Yeah, again, it took on its own flavor, but like it was supposed to be kind of benign and weird, but I didn't know like, was it going to be more of like a lynchian kind of thing or like when it started? It obviously gets a lot more malevolent and salient to what's going on. with our world. But yeah, it was just, it made me laugh. And that's really what it was, was how do you take something that's supposed to just, you know, any other person that visited Stillwater Trace,

like just acknowledging, okay, well, Bethany's job is XYZ, but like they also coordinate lodging. And they court. And so like it's part of the same job for them is like the, there's, their surveillance type things is goes hand in hand with making sure there's, fresh towels. I mean, I just thought that was funny to me. Yeah. Yeah, I liked it a lot. So there's obviously like the family story that's like a big emotional part of it at the beginning. Was there something that drew you to writing about like kind of like the separation and some of the like pain within the family unit? Yeah, so I think the whatever trauma has affected Mac, our protagonist and his family, I have, you know, kind of sat with like this kind of

spiritual or religious deconstruction and the weight that it has. And so for me, it was always, well, what, what causes these two people to come apart? And it's like, well, one of them just can't figure out who he is anymore because everything that he's kind of built his identity around has fallen apart. And the other is just, you know, sometimes it's hard to relate to to Rachel, especially in the beginning, but I just think she's looking for safety. She's looking for some type of security. Yes. And she gets to a point where there's something about it that's just this is more appealing

than what we're currently living with. And I come from, you know, my parents divorced when I was young and I've been through a bunch of, you know, I think I've had three sets of step siblings. So there's something actually, I'm empathetic towards broken families and towards parents who are trying to hold things together. And also, as a writer, I've been married for 20 plus years. And so, okay, well, if I'm going to write about something, I need to write about something that's the opposite of what I'm experiencing.

There's so much of Mac's story, at least from a religious background, that mirrors a lot of what I've experienced, that what are the things that I can dig into that are not me, so that it's not just a mirror image of me. So that was that was it really and to give him a goal, you know, to give him a goal. That makes sense. Then you kind of brought up though to like part of what was appealing to Rachel because she she kind of like moves to this town to be a teacher. But you mentioned like safety is what is really kind of compelling to her about this location.

And I feel like the book also, even outside of her story, kind of broadly examines, like, when there's a lot of fear pumped into kind of the zeitgeist. And then, like, what you're kind of willing to, like, look away from if you can at least feel comfortable and safe. And how that's kind of, it can be really perilous if, like, the wrong people are using that against you. So was that another thing that kind of just developed as you wrote it? or was it like, I mean, I think it's pretty timely. Was it kind of like your thoughts about that? Yeah, I mean, that was one of the things that is pulled straight out of the air and was like, well, what's the version of this? A lot of the first draft was a lot more direct.

And so I had to go through and like make some things more evergreen. But to be honest with you, I started writing this right at the tail end of 2024 and going into 2025 and just kind of seeing the reactions to what. was happening. And so without giving any spoilers away, like in my mind, Rachel and Bethany were two sides of a coin, which were, you know, when you lean into safety for for these reasons that you might think are right, what decisions are you willing to make that you just can't see versus on the other end if you fully engage like with what, you know, so they were they were kind of these foils to me as I was writing about what what we believe shapes how we show up in the world and what we're willing to do and or ignore and that's what those two kind of played with

as I was writing yeah and there's kind of like who are you loyal to is kind of like with the question that comes up a little bit with that too so there's kind of like your loyalty to your family what we what would be willing to do for that your loyalty to your faith what would you be willing to do for that and your country as well kind of all three of those were those things you were similarly just kind of like chewing on yourself because of like what was happening in 2024 25 yeah for sure and um i don't have a military background like mike mac does so i didn't want to say anything necessarily disparaging as much as just talk about like what what is the cost of of being loyal to these these kind of things things

and how they shape us. Again, it goes back to each of those things, in my opinion, is just another story that this person is telling. And then when those stories fall apart, what happens when those stories ask things of us that we normally wouldn't say yes to what happens. And so, yeah, it was very much just looking at it from those lenses of what are the things that right now are big things that are,

we're talking about them, but we're not always talking about them. And how can I explore them with genre and have a little fun with it as well. Yeah. You mentioned Max military experience. And it's something that I think has made it has made his life more difficult. Again, like I think without disparaging anyone in the military, I think plenty of people would tell you like their life changed from the things that happened when they were in service.

and it even is sometimes hard for them to come back and transition into like daily life. And so I think, I think it caused it, I think on like, what am I trying to look at? Like irrevocably like changes your family life too as well. But again, without giving away spoilers, it turns into something where his military experience is really useful. and it kind of makes him the right hero for this story. And I always love stories where, like, your trauma, you can choose to make it useful. Some people, I know there's sometimes like, well, but the trauma made me stronger. It made me who I am.

And that may be sometimes like rose-colored glasses, the trauma. But I like thinking of it as like, you could choose to be like, oh, because I have these skills, I can be useful in this way. So was that kind of like a character arc you thought about or was that just kind of where he took you, where Mac was headed? No, I knew a couple of big beats towards that I, or at least an idea of where I needed to go. And I couldn't just have him be a disillusioned pastor. He needed to have some skill set.

And so I talked to some of my friends that are in the military and I was like, how does chaplaincy work? How do these things work? but more than anything, it was, it was, you know, again, to go back to the initial, like, dad movie premise, it's like, well, he needs to be somewhat capable. Yeah. And that's completely not me. And so that was, do a little bit of research into what that will look like.

And then, like, research into, you know, if he was this age, these things, how would they impact him and things like that? but the idea was never he needs to be capable he needs to know he needs to kind of have a better grip of who he is by the end of the story but he's not he's not 100% whole or healed from all of this and there's still a lot of consequences that come from all these things but definitely there's a couple of conversations that he has throughout the books which make him realize like oh yeah maybe maybe i know myself more than than i i i think that i do maybe there's there's my identity is actually still intact even though all these things that i've put on them uh have have given me reason to doubt myself yeah yeah that makes a lot of sense the other thing it kind of

focuses on is it's almost it's almost a corporate community so like it it to residents who first move there it probably doesn't necessarily seem that way. But then maybe the longer you're there, if you're kind of paying attention to like what the signage, the verbiage, like what is around the community, it's kind it becomes clear that it's actually more corporate than just like a community that happened. And I think there's there's a lot of basically I was I was doing an interview of a couple months ago where I said our company instead of our country. And then I was like, well, maybe that's a Freud slip because our country is kind of owned by companies. So yeah, what was it like kind of writing about

that? Strange thing that's kind of happening now, even though it's not this level. It's 100% happening all around. And I think like I live in an area. Part of the inspiration for that was I live in an area where there's a ton of new development, but it's all these little, communities. So they have pools, they have office buildings, they have, and then there's a gym that I go to, which is literally I stole all of what the buildings in Stillwater Trace are from just going to the gym, because there's these tall brick buildings with all this landscaping, but there's all these like corporate offices in there, and I have no idea what they're doing. And so I just have my brain's like, what are they doing upstairs? But it is, it is like, this, well, do we build houses to house people or do we build houses because we need people that are going to work in these places to live? And it's always, we know factory towns have always existed, but like I think there's a, we don't see it. Like, we're building factory towns. And then we're going to put a data center in the middle of them. But, oh, yes. Yeah, there's,

there's a ton of that that was. And then like in the first couple of chapters, kind of just hitting on, like what does it cost the local community when these new places come in and you know ideas of didn't go there all the way but ideas of gentrification and and that kind of stuff just for the sake of this new thing that's hiding something yeah we have a couple of those I'm in Indiana but we might not even have more than one but there's one in like the wealthiest city here in Indiana where like there's a school like what you're saying there's a school there's a dentist there's a doctor there's a gym there's like and it's a gated community too yeah so i was thinking of that even while i was reading it where it's like in some ways it is great and in some ways that was kind of how community would

naturally develop like it would be like oh there are a lot of people here so now we need all of these resources but then it's like very different when it's very different when it's very not like naturally occurring i guess is kind of what i'm trying to say where you're like why are the wealthy people in a gated community and they're not like all of their resources are like just for that just locked in yeah it's it's it's a little bit crazy um with some of so there are some like action related scenes um especially near the end and i always wonder how writers like visualize that and write it. One of my writer friends, it was like my second or third interview, like five years ago. She said that her family always laughs because she'll be like in her office,

but it has like, I think she said I had like French doors so you could see her in there. And she would like actually be physically blocking it out herself. And they're like, oh, mom's writing again. But how do you visualize those and then kind of translate them into words? most of the time that yeah nice you know and i think borrowing from uh you know there's a couple beats here and there but for the most part um either borrowing from how i've seen people not not word for word but like okay there's a couple of people that i like to read and how do they write action beads um and that helps out a little bit but then again sometimes you have to pretend you're in a car park and you're or you're in a fist fight and to me that helps me to get like

the beyond just he punched him like the what is what is the what are you feeling and I've you know I've never been in a in combat like that so like I need to kind of pretend a little bit be in my body a little bit more so yeah I 100% in both my books have different scenes where I have found myself in my living room. Yeah. Being a 13 year old kid again. So it's helpful. I mean, that's good. Yeah. And sometimes it's just, yeah, and sometimes it's just referencing other, I, I, shorthand for me would be go watch a scene from a movie. And then, okay, well, I'm not going to dictate that scene, but like how that scene make me feel, what worked in that scene and then

try to incorporate that. So yeah, that's kind of, it's just osmosis. It just saw it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, anytime you can feel like a kid again is good, especially in a creative sense. Yeah. Big fan of sound effects. So like I just, I love just like, where can I put a sound effect in here? Yeah. You can't overdo it, but. Yeah. I know it probably translates kind of cool into audio, I would assume as well, actually. Well, hopefully we'll see by the end of the year. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You should get an audiobook soon. That'll be cool. there's also kind of this question of like following orders and that which is just a really complex subject in general so it's like even when when you're raising kids like obedience is important in a lot of

situations and then there are other situations where you're like who is giving this order and does it align with my values and like you're sometimes also considering other people like your family and how how am I going to make that choice? So with that kind of like control and orders and all of that, what kind of made you want to write about those things too? It kind of fits with his military background, but then now it also fits in this like very forced utopia. And kind of a hierarchy of power.

Yeah. And also recognizing, even within a hierarchies of power, there's always someone above you that's whether you like it or not. And what are you going to, for, okay, for instance, like, part of it is like, how can I climb this hierarchy? Yeah. And in power dynamics, sometimes that means exerting dominance, exerting power versus how I feel, which is like actually powers best served in self-sacrifice. and I hope that, you know, that comes through a little bit in the book as well. But it was really just also just examining who's in power and how they wield their power.

And how so much of it is a caricature of power. And how do you let powerful people have so much power, but yet not be able to wield it in a way that it has any good or just completely inept. And there's a character in the book where I just wanted to give him more power than he. He wants all this power, but he's just a minion. And how does that play out? And so, yeah, I think that's the kind of the back and forth I was going with, with how does power even work and who gets to, who gets to have it. And normally it's the people that shouldn't. It's hard to feel like that's not the case currently. And it has been historically, too.

It's not, what we're experiencing is not necessarily anything new in the course of, like, humanity. But I also know you kind of had, you kind of had like a deconstruction moment in your life with your faith and then kind of reconstructed it to reflect what, I mean, what matters to you. And then I would also kind of say like more of what Jesus was actually. asking us to do. But the book also really, it does explore some of the like extremism. And to be clear, I always, I talk a lot about these subjects. Any religion pushed to its extreme or a really fundamentalist version ends up hurting people typically, no matter whether it's Christian, Muslim, like Jewish, like all of it when it's pushed to the extreme, it's tending to hurt people more than it helps and loves people. So was, was writing this also some kind of processing

some of that for you? Because even reading it, it was like I was processing some of that too. Yeah. And it was, you know, I say in the afterwards, like this is an angry book. But it was a way for me to say all the things that I can't say out loud in some venues and to express myself that way. And so, yeah, it was a way to say, I see these things. I see where they're connected. And it's, I think, bad religion in any form, it hurts and it ultimately, it kills, it dehumanizes, it strips people of dignity. And it was never my goal to make this a book that redeemed religion or even give

redeemed, you know, you know, people asked me at the, while I was writing it that knew what it was you know is mac gonna find his faith at the end or whatever and i said i don't know i don't know how it's going to play out yeah but that's not really the that's not where that's not that's not the point of the book is it's not a book about faith as much as it is a book about belief um and how what how those things impact us and and make us do or or try things for good and bad and so that was kind of the conversation i was having was um I want to be able to say all the things I see that are wrong and not very subtly at all. Like the least subtle ways that sometimes on purpose.

Like there's two big images in the book that I was like, how can I just make sure this is as clear? You can't miss it on purpose. But then also sprinkling in through the other characters. I think there's hints of what real faith looks like. Yes. And even through a character that is a, I love him to death, but like he's, he's not really, that's not part of his conversation, but like even he has some ideas of, of there's something going on here. And so that was kind of the conversation I wanted to have was, let's say the things I want to say out loud.

And then everything else I want it to be quiet because I think that's what real spiritual practice is. It's the thing you kind of feel on the inside. And I hope people will put those things. Kind of in that same conversation of like also whether like faith and belief is totally external or internal. I think the story also kind of covers how when there are these like really extreme circumstances like outside of ourselves, it can feel.

easy to just be defeated and like oh what can we even do um and i don't i don't think it gives a spoiler to say there's there's like there is a version of resolution where it's like no individually there are things that you can do and maybe maybe you're not going to change the entire world by doing them but kind of like rediscovering your own agency is still worthwhile no matter what and I felt I I'm trying not to say spoilers but I like I appreciated that arc that it's like kind of what we talked about his trauma ends up like kind of helping him be the right person to do some things about what was happening and was that kind of like important for you as well yeah 1,000 percent like it really is supposed to be a story about if I think solely like if you can impact if you can have one positive interaction

during your day if you can have one positive influence like if someone leaves a conversation feeling more human then that's enough I think there's a lot of work to be done in the world and sometimes that can become so overwhelming and you know in the in the case of the story there's a lot of things going on. And there's no way that you could wrap up everything in this world that's happening right now with one life. You know, if I, you know, I have, you know, and so how does that play out in a story where there's all these big things happening?

Well, I'm going to, I'm going to do this thing or I'm going to live this way. Yeah. And that was a really important for, and I think for those characters, too, is to say, you know, what's the lasting impact of this story for them? It is really hard not to talk about things. I know, it is because it's like, it's like these are themes that like if I vaguely heard then, they would make me interested in a book. So it's like worth talking about, but we don't want to talk about exactly how it happens.

And I also feel like it does, like it is there, like you said, there's anger in the book. There's frustration with the way things are. But I think what we're kind of talking about too is like you can find your little. moments of hope and it is worth like holding on to those if you can find them or create them. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I don't think it's a spoiler, but I also had to ask there there is a character whose cadence and the way he talks. Okay, I'll just say it. President Truitt, like his cadence feels very, very, very similar to our current president. Was that all? purpose or was it just kind of like that's how you write a character that's like that's like that's like

that's like that I'll give the the BS answer was I don't know I just must have pulled it from somewhere no I'll be honest with you and like originally it was just him and but I also wanted to make sure like you know 10 years from now yeah like I wanted the book to have an evergreen kind of quality so I readdressed it. But I did want to just like, yeah, this is what I'm talking about. Yes. It was reminding me of. And it was fun.

Yeah, I'm sure it is. It was reminding me of knives out. The most recent one, was it dead man? I can't remember what the most recent one was, but it takes place like mostly in a church setting. And some people thought that the main pastor at the beginning, they're like, it's so cartooned. and it's so overdone. And I remember leaving that movie. And I'm like, yeah, because it, like, that's what it's turned into here.

Like, saying stuff like that. Yeah, like the little, like there's something at the end where he's like, they tell, they're telling me it's the greatest one that's ever been made. I was like, this is just so, this is so dead on. Yeah. And then, you know, something happens and all of a sudden, you know, we need, we need a ballroom. And so, like, that's very. similar like I know the further I get away from writing this the further I go is it still going to

have like be able to say things and like every day I turn on the news and I'm like yeah we're good that's what's crazy about it because I saw that you wrote your afterward in August of 2025 and I was like oh okay so like some of the stuff that was like dead on hadn't even happened yet this was wild and I've been having to have that conversation with people as we approach it and I'm like trust me like this was written well in advance and was always was always the ending um wow and so or you know an idea for it at least yes oh my goodness well i'm going to have to ask you something off air but there is something that happens in the book where i was like well this is um very similar and it happened in september of 2025 so there's there's no way that you were directly writing it not at all yeah

I have the receipts in case anybody asked. You're like, I swear. Was there anything that surprised you writing this one? I mean, it sounds like it was kind of the fact that like you thought you were writing one thing and it became another. But was there anything else that really like surprised you as you were writing it? Besides the, you know, the more provocative stuff, which is fun to write and to come up with that world, I have just, okay, well, I once asked my wife, I said, what do you've read everything?

Like even before I started putting, what do I write about? She said, you write about relationships. And try to keep that at the forefront of my mind. So digging into, you know, exploring matched relationships with his family, how that sets on top of this world. And at times,

he gets pulled in different directions, but I think at the core, like his his desire to be to be a good dad to be to be a decent husband whether it works out or not like those things are really those are the things i can resonate with so exploring that and then also just in writing the kid um i have i have two kids and so borrowing from my kids that sometimes and and and so just that was that was the Those were the parts that I could connect with emotionally where I didn't have to go to the same places that I had to go to when I was writing other scenes. Right. And then, of course, you put people in trouble and you care even more about them. So I enjoyed discovering who Mack was as a character beyond just the superhero that he started out as in my imagination, you know, a long time ago.

Mm-hmm. Well, I know you said, like, generally the ending you had written, or you knew what the ending was going to be. And again, without spoiling it entirely, did you, in terms of Max character arc, did you know, like, the choice that you thought he was going to make at the end? I didn't know how we were going to get there. Okay. And so very, regardless of some of the stuff that happens at the end. the Max

Max kind of a big decision at the end that was all I know I want to do this I know that's where I want to get him and so finding him allowing him to become a character

and also finding a way to that was like the work of writing the book and so you would have to let him be more he needs more agency as a character. You need to let him say things and do things and become. And at certain times, you know, I feel like he's leading from a place of anger. And sometimes I feel like he's leading from a place of humility. And that made him more interesting to me than just like I'm an action hero.

And he's a real person. And so, yeah, I just needed to let him become who he was. was but also no like somehow i got to get him to this this point right and uh and that that was the that was the that was the journey of i'm excited out who mac was yeah yeah but it was pretty early on there was a few things i wanted to do or i knew i i needed to say early on and those were the breadcrumbs along the way yeah you're kind of like your signposts or whatever to get to that makes sense well i obviously enjoyed it a lot i think anyone who really enjoyed it speculative thrillers or like psychosocial thrillers as well will really love this. I also think

if you like the show Paradise, you'll really love this as well. And that's all I'll say about it. So yeah, as of the day that it's airing, everyone can go get a copy of it right now. And then I do always ask at the end if there are any books that you've read recently that you really loved or if you just have books that you recommend all the time. Yeah, I knew you were going to ask that question. You knew. So I was thinking like what books I've read that didn't necessarily influence this, but I would point people to say, if you like this, go check this out.

And there's a book by Ben Winters called Underground Airlines, which is a, what would have happened if the South had won the war and slavery had been kept legal. and now we live in the north and the south and the main character is a black slave hunter essentially and it is a wonderful book and as a as a white author I'd also gave me some permission to be able to write a black character without trying to pretend that I was a black man so I I wonder wonderful excellent book the audio book's great too um so that would be my recommendation if you like if you like this book it's called underground airline yeah um and then i've just been pitching watching widow's bay wherever i go so uh yes yes it's nothing to do with this but

it's it was wonderful so i loved it so much that combo of horror and comedy is just impeccable really Well, where can people follow you to stay up to date on everything? Yeah, so my website is just Zach Cannon.com. And you can send me emails from there. I also have a Facebook, Zach Cannon writes. Other than that, my other socials are just me being dumb as a human being. So, you know, if you're interested in that, that's fine.

But Zachcanon.com is the first step along the way. Yeah. That's where I would just head there. And then you can get the book on Amazon. And you can also buy. it from me on the website perfect well thank you for coming on and talking about