Bookwild - Privilege, Payback, and Pay-to-Stay Prison: Elizabeth Rose Quinn's Payback

Episode Date: May 5, 2026

This week, I talk with repeat guest and friend Elizabeth Rose Quinn about her new, somewhat locked room thriller Payback! Listen to hear us discuss: Payback’s fascinating “weekend prison” premise and how it critiques privilege within the carceral system Balancing social commentary with a genuinely fun, propulsive thriller Crafting a large cast of distinct, memorable characters The psychological implications of our current judicial and carceral systems How Quinn's work as a therapist informs how she creates character arcs Check Out Author Social Media PackagesCheck out the Bookwild Community on PatreonCheck Out My Stories Are My Religion SubstackGet Bookwild MerchFollow @imbookwild on InstagramOther Co-hosts On Instagram:Gare Billings @gareindeedreadsSteph Lauer @books.in.badgerlandHalley Sutton @halleysutton25Brian Watson @readingwithbrianMacKenzie Green @missusa2mba 

This week I got to talk with my friend and author Elizabeth Rose Quinn about her new thriller payback. She was on the show a year ago for her first book, Follow Me. So good. And then we actually crossed past at Thriller Fest last year too and hung out quite a bit. So it was so fun getting to talk to her again. Here is a short gist of the book. For seven inmates, their luxury weekend prison sentence comes with concierge service and complementary homicide. So this is about some inmates who are in a pay-to-stay prison where they are able to pay and check in only on the weekends to serve their sentences so that they can mostly go about the rest of their lives

and have it not be very interrupted, which is a fascinating concept in general. But then the warden is found murdered and they need to figure out what happened before they are all blamed for it, essentially. Elizabeth did some really cool things talking about the car. system and you'll hear about that in our conversation but I thought it was really cool how she fit some social commentary into something. It was also an extremely fun thriller. So there's

thunder happening as I record this. You guys are getting to hear Bruce in the background. That being said, let's hear from Elizabeth. If you guys were around last year with this podcast, you heard me talk with Elizabeth Rose Quinn about follow me and we had a lot of fun. And then since then, we met at Thriller Fest. We did. And then now she has written Payback, which I think I liked even more. Not that I dislike follow me. But I'm super excited to talk about it.

And I'm happy we get to talk to each other in general again. I know. Meeting at Thriller Fest was the best. But listeners, what you need to know listeners was I met Kate and then made her be my friend and kind of follow up. I find her to everybody like hi it's me again what do you want to do oh no it's helpful though because some of it is there are a lot of people there sometimes it is nice to just have like a duo or a trio walking around so we're like I feel tired and I need water and everything awkward and someone goes oh my god seems I could go sit in my room right now and I'd be happy I think we were both

texting each other that at one point I was like I'm just sitting in the dark you're like me too There was a lot of like, let's meet up later and then like 20 minutes are like, I got I'm not leaving again. I don't think I'm going to go and I'm like, I'm not going to go. It's like, oh, I love this mutual veil. Yes. That's like the Jomo, the joy of missing out. We both participate heavily in that.

Sweetest nectar of the gods of like, it's so loud where they are. Exactly. There's no artists. It'd be terrible. Oh, I know. Oh, darn. Well, when people listen to the intro, then they know, like, payback is basically taking place in a pay to stay prison, which from the get-go is so fun. And I remember when you posted about it, I responded to you.

I was like, this is such a, this is totally what rich people would do. And you were like, oh, they do. They do do it. And then you got to learn that I have a fear of not knowing everything in the world. And I was like, oh, my God, I didn't even know it was real. But can you talk about that concept? Because, I mean, it fits something that wealthy people would do. Yeah.

So pay to stay is a totally real separate kind of system of prisons that exist all over the United States. And basically, if you commit a crime and can afford it, you can appeal. you can appeal to like the judge or the DA and say, I'd like to go to pay to stay, where you pay probably around like 200, 250 a day and go to jail on the weekends. So it's very costly, but it allows people to like keep their jobs and stay engaged in their communities. And I am very much for that and very much why is this only available to the people who can afford it? Right. With the pay model. Yeah. that I think having alternatives to incarceration are crucial and necessary to like our very broken

carcoral system. But those options should be available to everyone, just not the wealthy. So it felt like this amazing setting to set a story where I could, you know, poke at the problems of the carceral system and ask these tidal questions about something that's so damaging to so many people, but still have it be something that feels fun to read and is a popcorn thriller and has like all the really awful jokes that I enjoy. But like there's a little bit of medicine in that sugar. Yes. Yes, there is. As I was reading it, I was like, this is more satire than people will assume kind of because of what you were just saying. Like it has popcorn

vibe like or popcorn thriller like pacing kind of um but you are definitely saying some other things too so how did you how did you approach it it's kind of a murder mystery it's kind of a locked room since it's in a prison and then there's like social commentary as well were you approaching it as one thing or how did you do it i mean this is an annoying answer but i think they all kind of intersect at the same time for me. High sizes are all equal because if it's no fun to read, what are we doing, right? And it's a murder mystery with no murder. What are we doing? And if it's not funny, then I'm not writing in my natural voice. But if I'm not, if I'm just setting something in prison for funnies, that doesn't feel like in line with what I want to do, which is like I love to

write thrillers that have that for me get to poke at and stress tests and explore like societal failings that we have. So to me, it's like they all have to be working in tandem. And I think to like mean one direction too much becomes heavy. I think the hardest part with this book was just finding that balance. Yeah. That makes sense. Because it does. It really has all of the elements together and I loved how they came together. With your, so it's an ensemble cast. We have seven prisoners and we have a very, very scary, creepy, like prison warden, basically. So how did you build out this cast?

When did you know, like, I have enough people. Did anyone surprise you? I mean, I think when it comes to. the prisoners themselves, it's like, okay, well, let's ground this in reality, right? Like pay to stay is real. Personal system is real. Who are the people who would be here? Who could afford it?

What crimes, like, would be ones that wouldn't like automatically disqualify people from this, right? And then when it came to Bard, it's like, I wanted it to be a question of like, there's so much harm that happens in the system because what happens is people get incarcerated. And then as like a lawyer once said to me, he goes, well, the problem with people who are incarcerated is there's no, excuse me, there's no constituency for them. That's what he said. Meaning they can't advocate for themselves because they've been thrown away. And, you know, often they don't have the right to vote.

So they can't even like represent themselves or what they want. and when they leave prison, like, to just reenter society as its own full-time job. And so I kind of wanted to feel like, okay, so if I want to distill all of that, like, power and manipulation and this, like, ongoing inescapable harm that carcels systems create, what does that look like in a person? And that was where bargaining from. I love that. He is. He is the, that system distilled in a person because I don't think it's totally spoilers to say, like, He basically is getting off on having power over powerless people and getting to be sadistic. If he feels like it, getting to be entertained by them if he feels like it. I did not put those two together that he is basically just everything wrong about it in one person, which would make sense because that's who they're going to hire.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's who would thrive in that environment, right? And so what was also hard was, and I'm curious how people respond to this book because in some ways, and I'm glad that you said, like, you might even like this more than follow me because it didn't feel as big risk. Like, follow me is so so shiny and pretty and social filters and Target and everything. And to kind of in some ways follow like the cozy mystery model of like, this is a bad person. Who'd very.

You know, it deserves to die as strong, but like, you're not sad when he's murdered. No. It was a challenge of how do I really explore who he is, what he is, but not have readers get through the prologue and just be like, I hate this guy, did not finish. Right. So I want everyone to know when you start reading and you hate him, don't worry, he's dead very soon. He's gone or he, we're not getting contributions from him. pretty early in. Yes.

And by design. That's not a spoiler that he, that he does not. So. It's in the synopsis. Yes. They asked like, do you want us to put that in synopsis that he's the victim? I was like,

for the love of all that is holy, put it in. Please make sure they know. A brilliant development editor, Selena McLean was actually the one who said, what if we make chapter one, log because then it kind of tips to the viewer that this is not the rest of the book. And I thought, oh, you're so smart. Selina. You're so smart. She's so smart. I love her. Yeah. What? I don't know if you

said it, but what was, was it just thinking about our carceral system that made you want to write it? Or was there something else that gave you the initial idea? I mean, so I'm also a practicing psychotherapist. And in grad school, I did several papers on the harm of the carceral system and the harm of carceral systems also on juveniles.

And it's just wild to me when you even start to scratch the surface, you know, looking at the Marshall Project or the prison policy websites that go through all these studies, that the system is so

huge. It's huge. Millions and millions and millions of people. But we just don't talk about it because we've decided those people don't count anymore. And so for me, it felt like, you know, people are like, what a random thing to write about? And I'm like, well, it wouldn't be that random if I wrote about people going to college, but that's a lot less people than people who are impacted by the system. So like, why does one seem so front and center and fine? and ones like disappeared into the corner.

Oh boy. Well, with your psychotherapy part two. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. This is as much of a bummer as I mean. No, it's really not. If you like dark comedy, if you like social commentary, satire, all of that, like you're going to enjoy those elements of it.

With your psychotherapy background, though, does that, do you use anything from that that, that like helps you build characters like there's is there some stuff that's like easier to do yeah i mean i think i have a lot of clients now who either are directly or indirectly impacted by the system so it's something that i'm still thinking about talking about all the time um but also just like what is character development right it's like you think of a person and you think what do they want and why can't they get it And is something structurally in the way for them? Are they in their own way? Are they, is there a pattern of behavior that's keeping them trapped from what they want?

Like, this is what I'm doing with my clients when they walk into my office. And it's also what I do with my characters, right? It's like, what are the patterns that are showing up that you need to disrupt in this moment to change? And that's what we want to look, right? We want to see people kind of confront something that has been troubling them and grow. Yeah. So when I interviewed Ashley Winstead, years ago for my first one. She mentioned the book Story Genius and I will write a book at some point.

I decided to go all in on Book Wild. But I did read that book and I do think what's interesting about that book because I did like eight or nine years of therapy in my 20s. Then when I was reading this book, I was like, oh, this is kind of like what you do in therapy where like that book recommends coming up with like two or three big moments earlier on in their life, whether that means childhood or maybe like new adulthood and be that that help describe why they're making, why they make decisions the way they do now. And I remember reading and I was like, oh, so you really kind of are like just doing a psychological profile on someone. If you go that route, if you really want to have the she talks about it being the like emotional, I can't think of

the the hot wire on like a on a train track i don't know why i can't maybe live wire is what she called it you're third rail third rail i think that might be it yeah there we go i don't know enough about trains um but anyway i loved that part of the book because i was like you really could even just thinking of like oh what are two moments in their childhood that would have solidified this belief or misbelief about themselves and i was like oh okay i could see how you can get into characters that way. Yeah, and ironically, like, one of the therapy models that I really enjoy is something called narrative therapy.

And so much of it is, like, what is the story of your life? And where can we notice that, like, reality is one thing, but, like, the story you've constructed around it is actually something separate. Can we tell a different story about you? Like, I think, you know, like, the easiest and most reductive version of, are you a victim or are you a survivor? Right. Yes.

Like just having that shift, right? And ironically, one of the papers I wrote in grad school was about using narrative therapy with juveniles in the correctional system because they get this narrative of I'm a bad kid. I'm going to end up here eventually anyway. No one cares about me. So who cares what happens, right? Right. And if you do therapy with them like in adolescence and do narrative therapy specifically and go, what's a different story? Why have you already written these future chapters based on this?

What's a difference of this that we could tell? Right. And it's incredibly effective because it changes their identity within themselves. And so they don't walk into a story that they've kind of preset. I have a friend and we talk a lot about how there's some, if you want to be different than you currently are. if you can see someone who is like doing what it is that you want and then you almost tell yourself I'm going to cosplay being that person like I'm going to do it and she and she loves to talk about that's kind of a version of fake it till you make it is like even if you're not feeling great about

where you are you could be like I'm going to act like I'm already this version of myself that I have chosen that I'm going to be and like eventually it does it shakes up like what you think about yourself and it's so powerful. It's like at a certain point, what's the difference between faking it and making it? Right. Like sometimes it's just mindset. It's opportunities that you maybe will put yourself in the way of if you're acting like,

well, I'm already here. Even if inside, oh my God, I hope no one realizes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's identities. it's so important because it's how you start to make, well, it's just not how you start. It is how you make most of your decisions. So it's also reminding me in therapy how like the like the most integral moment when you were talking about survivor versus victim is like when you first start therapy, especially if you're

there because you're in emotional crisis at this point. It's like they did this to me. They did this to me. And so like the beginning is being like, oh, that was terrible. They shouldn't have treated. I'm speaking from like a parent's perspective. like they shouldn't have treated you that way they shouldn't have done that and then eventually if you have a good therapist one day they're like all right now what are you gonna do with what happened to you because they're not going to come fix it for you and then you have to like step into your agency which for some people is very intimidating and i remember for me being like oh oh so it's all on me also means like i can like do what i want though now moving forward It is so powerful.

That is the point in therapy that is the joke that, like, if people can get over that moment, yes, they're going to do great, but that's when everybody quits. Mm-hmm. It's not the, like, pity party anymore. It's one where it goes from validation and comfort, which is really useful in the beginning, to now let's shift to agency. Mm-hmm. now let's shift to what happened and how are we going to change your view of it even if it's just

even if it's just to say yeah you didn't deserve that end of story yeah and then now what now what do we do information like okay so let's fake it to it make it what do you want to be right but it's a hard point because I think there's there's that yeah that that double-edged sort of it's all on you which is oh my god it's all on me that's terrifying Yeah. But also, it's all on you, meaning it can be where you want it to be. Yep. One of the other populations that I work with a lot is I work with LGBTQIA and trans people.

And one of the things in my office is I'm just like, what if this is just a place where you get to play? Like, come here with like the clothing you're scared to wear or the makeup you're scared to try out or whatever. Come change in the bathroom. That makes me so happy. Yeah, and then come into session as a version of you that you want to try out this week. Like, I'm not going to be mad if you come next week and you're wearing a different outfit. Yeah. Would this be a place of freedom?

Yes. Where you get to decide who am I now. Yeah. And it's really powerful. It makes me, I mean, I love my writing work. It's my joy. And my therapy work is just honestly, like, even with like a lot of the trauma and, sad, hard things that I hear. It's also just like the most life-affirming thing to see somebody go,

I'm going to change my life. And I go, oh, my God, you did it. I'm so proud of you. And then we're goosebumps. Yeah. I just have so much respect for people who do do it because like what we're talking about, it is hard to get to certain points and to kind of take some ownership of like, okay, yeah, they did this, but like I have been choosing this now. And I could, it's hard to get there. It's very hard to get there. It's hard if you live in a family system or a friendship group that is resistant to change. Yeah. People who want you to change.

Find people who want you to grow. Find people who like to make fun of you. If you're like, well, I got bangs. That was a terrible idea. And they go, that's our main clips are in this season. You know. Yes. Hair grows.

I'm going to be chicken for a while. And they're like, cool. Yeah. Let's, what I'll make sure that like next time you come over, like, we'll get a pizza with like vegan cheese like yeah people who want you to explore and find your most authentic self those are your real friends for sure with the concept of um kind of what we're talking about though transforming obviously in most books you want some of your characters to transform as well and i thought it was cool how you're able to use kind of like the locked room nature of a

prison as like a way where like they kind of also don't have I mean there's a murder but they kind of don't have like tons of the distractions that you do in your daily life and so they all kind of learn about themselves as they're in prison and was that something you kind of wanted to explore or just like of course they would change their characters in a book no I really wanted to explore it because I think this idea that like they don't change because they're in prison they change because they're kind of confronted with their own patterns and are realizing, wow, this is really falling short for me in this moment where I really need to grow, right?

Yeah. And sure, that's like ideally what prison does, but most of the time it doesn't, which we see evidence through Russell, right? That it just has reinforced so much for him in a way that's really... Yeah. And so I really wanted to, particularly through our point of view characters, Cammy and Isha have them come in as their old selves and then leave with a very different kind of, I guess, like, relationship to their own choices of how they cope, right? How they engage with people. Are they willing to make connections? Are they willing to be vulnerable? Are they willing to be close? Are they willing to be authentic, right? And to almost have their freedom be, hinging not only on figuring out who did it, but also their freedom is hinging on them growing.

Because if they don't grow in this book, then they don't get free at the end. Yeah. Yeah. And they can't really, to stay vague, they're trying to figure out who killed Bard. So even though they don't totally like each other, they're all kind of having to work together. And then I kind of think what you're saying, at least part of if they don't grow is then they don't like tell each other enough stuff. that they can like trust each other to work together basically. I think that's the vaguest way I can say it. Yeah, it's like, can I actually trust somebody else?

Yeah. Let somebody in and allow them to be in charge of this moment where normally I'm a total control freak or can I authentically show up with myself for the first time? Because if I don't, we're all stuck here. Yeah. But I've never been that. And that's a big risk. And wow, it would have been a lot easier if I had just done this one.

we were like trying to figure out where to go to dinner with my friends. But instead, I guess this is the moment where like I've got to be different. And I really wanted that growth to be a part of this book. Yeah. And I think the characters that don't make it out, it's not a coincidence that they're the ones who are the most resistant to changing. Yeah. And that fits in all kinds of situations in life for sure. you kind of talked about it because we were kind of talking about how like technically a weekend stay version of prison would be great if it was not reserved for only very wealthy people who can pay to stay.

And the other thing that I really noticed was contrasted is like the inmates here are like very obsessed or like very aware of the fact that they are really trying to maintain their innocence. like their goodness. Whereas like when we think of a not wealthy person's prison, like you almost have to appear tough to like survive in a maximum security prison. And I thought even the fact that those two experiences were so vastly different was like very intriguing and very important. So can you kind of talk about those differences even? Yeah. I mean, I think it goes back to like the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, right? And I think as much as Bard is a real pill and no one is on his side, he is right when he realizes, you know, pretty early on, like, oh, what they're paying for is that they don't have to confront what they did. They get to say,

I'm still innocent. I'm still good. I was caught up. This is unfair. I shouldn't be here. Like, that's part of what they're paying for. And on the flip side, like whether they deserve it or not, right? And then on the side, when you have someone who's going to a maximum security system, it's like, those places are not designed for growth. They're designed for, you know, survival if you can. Yeah. And what does that look like? It does not look like, you know, authenticity and vulnerability.

No. And even capitalism for the most part and racism. Yeah. And even the idea that. like there's an incredible documentary that I recommend everybody watch called Feminism on Cell Block Y or the feminist on cell block Y. And it's about a particular person, their name is Richie Rossida. And through a network of other, you know, brilliant educators and abolitionists, he starts

a program within the prison because he himself is incarcerated with other men to say, how do we get here? And breaks down patriarchy. Wow. And capitalism and violence and domination. It's on CNN. It's amazing. It's incredible.

I need to watch this. It's so good. And they just actually released a new documentary with someone that he was incarcerated with a man named JJ 88 who was in solitary confinement and wrote music. And they were able to get JJ80 out. But it's called songs from. the hole. Okay. And so this idea of like the court system, even when you get down to like the most basic stuff like court, your fence fell on my car or divorce or child custody, it's an adversarial

system where it's set up that one person has to lose. And that is the system. There's no incentive to be accountable because if you walk into court and go, I did it. I am, I did harm. I did harm. I heard this. Well, you just said you were guilty and now you automatically go to prison for the maximum sentence. So you have to say, I'm innocent or no contest because to be accountable, like, doesn't actually... You don't get, like, to... You don't get the help to have a good sentence, basically. And to be accountable in that way would maybe actually do a lot more to restore victims and harm that was done to them to have somebody show up in court and go, I am so sorry that I hurt you. I'm so I did that. And like, what do you need from me? Like, what acts can I do to repair?

Mm-hmm. But you can't do that in the criminal system because you've just in the middle and now you're going to prison. And the victim doesn't actually get to have any say in what would restore them, right? So it's like the whole thing is so unbelievably broken. It makes me great. So, yes, it makes me crazy too. And I also hadn't thought until you just phrased it that way about psychologically what that does to you when you're having to say like, oh, no, I'm innocent when you know you aren't. I hadn't thought of the long term, like, effect of that, basically. But it's also reminded me of there's a show out. I don't think this is too much of a spoiler. There's a show out called Bait by Riz Ahmed. It's kind of like a semi autobiographical dark comedy. on Amazon Prime. But he gets into this thing where like, so he offends someone within his same ethnicity.

And so then people are basically saying like, you shouldn't get to work anymore, like the extreme cancel culture. And so he has all these PR people kind of to what you're talking about telling him, like you have to stand strong and act like you didn't do this. Or then there's the other person who's like, you need to do a public apology and like,

I'm going to write it. I'm going to tell you all the parts that you have to hit on. And that public apology is way more trained towards, like, media training and, like, keeping your fans. And then he gets to a point where he's been so stressed out about all of it that he just, like, calls the guy and, like, talks to him face to face. And they have a really great conversation. And the guy was like, I totally do see where you're coming from.

Like, and what he, this guy is shit posting about him all the time, like every few hours now. And so he was like, I really do understand that. Like, I'm sorry I was doing that or whatever. and Riz's characters like, okay, cool, man, like, that's great. I'm really glad we were able to handle it that way. And he says, yeah, now can you re-say everything you said at the beginning so I can record it? Because, like, I'm going to have to show to everyone that you apologize to me if I'm going to stop posting about you. So you, like, get through this whole thing where you think that you're going to have this moment of, like, look, human interaction should be enough, could be enough, especially in some of these, like, low-stakes situations.

but like the system we've all grown up around is like okay now make it public and do something for me and it is yeah how are you ever going to resolve stuff with yourself when that's like the way it works and it's like a very kind of meta media social media version of like a cycle of harm yes yeah and it just keeps going and I think there's a part in the book where Isha talks about like I'm not innocent but I had the money to perform innocence. I had the money to perform reform. I was still doing all the same stuff that I ought to rest there. But I could perform for the court and the court could get the paperwork.

Even when looking at me going, this does not pass the smell test. They're like on paper it looks good so we can all move on now. I know. It's terrible. I mean, wealth inequality, I think you and I could both. talk forever about especially just every week it becomes more and more relevant unfortunately um did you do you write knowing who the killer is like did you know when you were writing it or do you kind of figure find it out as you write i generally know before i start because

a couple reasons that are very glamorous. I have two small children. Yeah. I am their jungle gym and their chef and their carpool line and, you know, their human furniture that they sit on while they watch Bluey. I have 20 minutes while they're like in the tub or something. Yeah. I need to make those 20 minutes count.

Yeah. I'm very impressed. So I don't have time to be like, I'm just going to write for like seven hours today. And the first three hours are just going to be me. My cabin in the woods, like looking at egrits and like. Yeah. A Christmas morning of 2024, because we're in 2020, I was walking down the stairs with my children going, oh, my gosh, look, Santa came. and I slipped and shattered my ankle.

Yes, you had your boot when we were talking, I think. So I had a massive cast and a boot and a scooter. So I was writing this in the living room, like with the Bluey playing or Spider-Man and his amazing friends. And the kids are like, I'm typing and they're like, open this granola bar. And I'm like, yeah, I've got it. So like, I have blown away by moms who can do this. I have many photos of my children, like literally stepping onto me, like trying to like find a place to sit on my lap. And I'm like, my laptop is here.

And they're like, at one point I was like trying to edit my book and my very small son at this point. He was still two. He comes in. I have like my whole book printed out. And I'm like going through all these edits. And he just takes all the pages and starts laying them on top of me and going, shh, mommy, this is sleepy time. And it's putting them over me like a blanket.

did you say you do have a video of that yes that is so author of you that is so cute and i took a little video yeah and it's like he's in a diaper and like a little t-shirt and it's like got all the paper and it's like i help you love me i help you and i'm like yeah this is not helping but it's cute so many so many drafts had footprints on them and like little sticky hair so um That is the very glamorous reason that I absolutely have to outline. Also, I come from TV writing. And so for me, the outline is everything because I can, I now, from those years of doing that, I can see so many story problems before they happen.

I'm not writing like 7,000 words in the wrong direction because I'm not time for that. Right. And you still find story problems like in the draft, but I would say I probably avoid 60% of them by the outline is free and detailed, like a 35-page outline. That's how I feel like I would need. Well, and I have written part of one, but that's how I needed to approach it. I needed to know, like, where things were going to be.

I think also, like, drafts kind of, you know, they build, right? Like, I almost think of it's, you know, you get the cloth and then you have to, like, kind of keep weaving in new threads. And if I know the cloth is structured right and well, then I can go back in and be like, ooh, I think this person should say this little thing here. Because that was off later. Or like, oh, this moment way back here is really good.

It would happen more if there's like, if it's a reversal of something else or if it builds. And so it's like it helps those later drafts be much more productive. Because I'm not fixing giant things. I'm just layering, layering, layering, like little clues, character moment, you know, X, Y, Y, S. Yeah. I could see that.

Oh, well, I have to talk about Nacho. So we have an emotional support iguana named Nacho, which is like Adorbs. He's not on the cover. Is he at one point I was like, I feel like this is one of those things where you would like notice like, oh, there is a tiny iguana in the cover, but I hadn't looked. But what, what is Nacho's origin story? I don't know. Nacho just came to me and I was like, well, you are in the book. And I will say my lovely publisher, they always send me these very long questionnaires, like, what do I want the cover to look like?

And I send them so many ideas and they take literally zero of them. They're like, this is beautiful. And I just like, trade the trash. And I definitely wanted Nacho to be on the cover. Okay. Green. I want there to be nacho. I want there to be the parrots, and I want there to be palm trees, and, like, maybe the Griffith Observatory, and they were like, totally, none of those things happened.

You're like, here are seven sunglasses or six. Okay, well, that cover's also very good, I guess. But, like, it is cool. The covers are good. They're really good. So I'm like, you just let me kind of spin out my idea. And then, like, an actual cover as opposed to something I would make with, like, clip art. Right, right.

Um, yes, I think at first I think it just started out with like, what is the most bizarre stuff that each of could bring in? Because that's the other thing about pay to stay. And this is also real. You get to bring all your own stuff. You got to bring your own food. You get to wear your own clothes. You get to bring in your bedding. Like you could basically bring in anything that you can carry. Yeah. And so what would be the most preposterous thing that each person could bring? Yeah. And so like, um, you could basically bring in anything. Um, and so like, um, Maureen, she works in campaigns. And so in order for her to like work on speeches and kind of do like debate prep and stuff for her candidate, it's like she brings a full cutout, full life size cutout of Mayor Pete Buttigieg every week. Yeah. She's why. Yeah. Or, you know, Dedi brings in a Christmas tree. Like one of those motorized ones that like comes up out of the bag that was inspired by my friends Beth and David because they had a Christmas tree that was artificial.

and they said we just bring it out of the sack and then we press a remote and the whole thing comes out and lights up and I was just like so like I think for Janet it was just like what is the most insane thing that someone like her could bring in I was like well obviously it's an emotional support animal but it's got to be weirder than that yeah not a golden retriever and I think when I also there's a part of me that still thinks like I'm working in TV and movies. So it's like you don't want a dog because like they're expensive. Yeah. And you don't want the dog to have to do anything. Like that's hard. You definitely don't want a cat because cats are impossible to train. Yeah.

Better than CGI cat, you know. Like you never would do it like babies, animals, weather. Like these are the three things that like ruin shoots. Like what's something really still? I was like, maybe. He was going to get-go and I was like, no, it's going to be big. It's got to be big and weird. Yes.

There he is. Nacho, being magical. I love it. You know, sometimes you just need, I'm just pulling up iguanas now. Sometimes you just need one. In the jail. You know, you never know. Never know how I come up.

This is so stupid. Why would you bring an iguana? That's ridiculous. It's right? Yeah. I mean, what a nightmare? he they yeah I don't know what I would do if I saw an iguana in real life like I wouldn't run toward it I don't think they're really big like some of them are yeah that's what I'm noticing yeah like they're they can be up to like

five feet long yeah oh and I do think still again like from TV and film I think like very visually so this idea that like when they find hard's body and you turn around and it's like okay sister Bridget is praying yes Didi's like crying in a way that's bizarre. Like, Maureen's like trying to problem solve it. And then like here's Janet like trying to go into Vinyasana,

but she also has like a six foot long iguana on her. Like that's funny. Sometimes the answer to stuff is it was so stupid I had to put it in. And funny. I mean, I was like, did he start out as as a, as a, oh, what is that comedy palette cleanser basically? I don't know why I can.

can't think of the right word for that comic relief i can't think of my words today um what was i was there anything we talked last time about how you were uh in writer's rooms and you're kind of talking about how some of these decisions you think maybe are coming from your time in tv so was there anything you kind of like directly applied with this one where you were like oh this is some of my like TV writing skills coming through. I mean, so for Follow Me, like, the scale is so huge and there's hundreds of people and so much of it's taking place at night. Like, if the movie gets the green light, which we're waiting on still from the, we're

at the final stage, we're the final green light stage from the president of MGM, Amazon. So like, well, but if that has to go forward and get shot, what a nightmare. people such a long night shoot like they're going to be out at night for three weeks um so this was very different where i was like can i scale it down and i did work on several shows that were multi-cams which are the kinds like friends fraser um you know where it's like you have like three walls and like the audiences here and then about multi-cams is like they have to be all about story and they Yeah. Limited sets and you have limited cast.

Yeah. And the blocking. Yeah. And like you have to make sure that like the majority of the show takes place in Monica's apartment. Yeah. Or it can happen in Jerry's apartment or it can happen in the hallway outside of Kramer's apartment or it can happen at the diner. But like anything beyond like the regular sets like that's a little expense, right? So thinking what does it look like to have a story?

that's that tight and technical. And it was just kind of like a fun, different challenge, which, by the way, was atrocious. And I was very mad at myself. I was like, who pitched this stupid idea? Oh, no. Because we'll move everybody, right? And it's like, well, this person has to have to make sure they leave in the right order.

And like, this needs to happen. So like, where can I put everybody else? Like, what would it make sense for everybody? It's a lot of, like, story math that I was used to from that. and then also was like, why did I do this to myself? Like, I felt like I had a clue board in my head where I had to like move like, okay, the thimble goes here. Oh, right.

Like, like, Janice, I'm like, Janice, I iguana. But like if she moves around the corner and then there's this, like I had to really, like, I kept thinking about the production designers I worked with and you would go into their office and they would have like full, you know, architecture blueprints of the sets. know where everybody was. It's like that was a thing of like having the architecture of exactly what this space looks like because I think also the the tightrope of a locked room is the reader really has to understand where everyone is all the time.

Otherwise, I'm also. Yeah. He's like, is this person just in the ether or something like conveniently right now? Yeah. It is. It's a lot different just in. mostly in one space. Were there, were any of the characters, like, harder to write than the others?

Like, was there one that, like, gave you trouble? Dedy was so annoying. Yeah. And so every time, lovely reader, when you read Aisha being irritated with Diti, that's me. You're the worst, like, just so selfish and so, um, So very much like I do not want to look inward. No, thank you. No.

I just really love my hair extensions. And I just really want to get home and like have a spotty. I'm just like, going. So she was hard to write because you don't want her to feel repetitive. Right. But I also was like, bitch, shut up. So that was that was a little tricky. She was hard. Everybody else was pretty wacky and fun.

Yeah. But I felt like I needed to have someone that really represented that mindset of like, well, I'm rich. So like obviously I don't have any work to do on myself. Totally. Like I'm sorry. You want me to grow? Look, my bank account says I'm fine. I know.

That's like what you run into with people are like when my bank account says this. And I'm like, that does not mean you are a good person to me. I mean, oh, yoy, yoy. Like when you meet really rich people, you're like, oh my God, you're the most boring person I've ever met. And I assume that's probably the case, especially with ones who are like grown in, grow up in it. Like never had any reason to develop a personality or anything. Have you ever seen, this is from so long ago, the Eddie Izard comedy special dress to kill? No.

Oh my God, Kate. Okay, I'm adding this. This is so crucial to watch. I will. I will watch it. But at one point he talks about the British Royal family and how like, because they've been so insulated, he's like, you see them try to talk to regular people and they're like, you know, plumber. What on earth is that? Then they're just like, like, limp and he's like their arms don't. Like, it's just like, oh my good.

You know, plumber. And sometimes, like, you meet really rich people and they're just like, I don't know what to do. And you're like, oh, my God. And they tell you your problem. And you're just like, that's not a problem. It's like, you have all the resources to do this. That's like a arrested development when she's like, what does a banana cost? Like $6.

$12. Yeah. It's total looseal blue. Yeah. She was mean. So she was funny. But like, you're like. So I thought.

Didi was crucial because again, like, what I really wanted to play with was I wanted the reader to start the book being like, I get these people. I see myself on them. This is how I would do. And then as the book goes on to have all of the allegiances flip because then it becomes like, that was your bias, babe. Yes. You know, and the way that she's very much just like, Isha, you're a bad person because you do crime and I don't. And it's like, then what are you doing here, girl? Well, that's an interesting take on your situation. I just like, you're in jail. Like, that's kind of harpooning that whole narrative, right?

Yeah. Do you watch The Pit? Yes. So that, have you watched all of season two? Yes. Okay. So that scene where she's like, it's a wild pregnancy. I don't want medical help.

And he says, so why are you here? And I was like, that was the right response. Like if you're totally against it, don't come to the hospital. Like, what are you talking about? The hypocrisy call is coming from within the house, baby cakes. Yes. So, D.D. And this is also why it was really important for me to have Russell in the story as somebody who's in legit state prison.

And this way that even with somebody like Aisha, who in so many ways we really understand and vibe with, but then you're like, oh, my gosh. you also don't like him. Wow. Like, why do they think he's better than him? Yeah. Yeah. And it's, they're not that, they're not as far from him as they want to believe. Well, sometimes I think about that, even in the sense of like, the literal word criminal

means anyone who ever commits a crime, whether you're, what am I trying to say, indicted or not? And it's like, I have said, like, I have said, like, sometimes I think of all the little things that a lot of us have committed crimes over. And then it comes down to a whole bunch of other socioeconomic, ethnic reasons, whether you like get the full force of punishment for being a criminal for that. But like, I have missed a stop sign before. That's a crime. And it's so easy to just use that term to mean like really, really bad people. I mean, there's that great tweet that, like, went viral and it's like, what something that's, like, considered really bad if you're poor, but is chic if you're rich.

And one of the answers was having a drug problem. Yeah. And the other answer was not paying your taxes. We were just talking about it, that one, not having tax issues and speaking multiple languages. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's ridiculous. Like, ew, gross.

And it's like, well, it's French and I'm rich. Oh, my God, that's so chic. Oh, they're so cool. You're so worldly. Yeah, being a tax dodger, it's like, oh, God, that's so gross. Like, can't you afford it? And it's like, oh, I've got an offshore bank account in the Cayman's. Oh, my God, can you tell me, like, how you do it?

I know. I know. I'm not going to get all the way into it, but our president is about to pay himself $10 billion from the IRS right now. meanwhile we got people struggling I mean not to pump another podcast but I just listened to yeah and's culture study this week and it's about like the history of paying taxes or not paying taxes and I mean I have several friends who aren't paying their taxes this year because

they're like I'm not funding this yeah and what does that look like and like how does that work and what do taxes mean and like who pays them and like what does tax exempt status mean when it's being used by like religious organizations that are also like very profitable it's so complicated right and so yeah like this idea that somebody who was running for president just flat out said i don't pay my taxes i pay as little as possible and that everyone was fine with that it's like you're supposed to be in charge of the tax yes so it's um these were all things that i would love to like my dream is to have these ideas like kind of floating in the ether of this book but without ever needing to be like look over here this is a socio-economic issue trying to find that middle

ground so that people could maybe leave in a way where they think oh I didn't feel shitty for being biased at the beginning but I am interested now why was I biased? Like I don't want people to feel like I'm like scolding them but I do kind of want to be like Any thoughts by the end about like you're in it? Just like circle back on. Okay. Yes. Yeah, I have a friend who we often talk about how fiction is one of the best ways to get some different ideas into other people's hands.

more than nonfiction because if you're like here's this nonfiction about the carceral specifically that actually if you're like here read the color not the color of law the new Jim Crow people are like but they you hear a thriller pitch about some people in a pay to I keep almost saying pay to play pay to stay prison that's going to be a little more accessible and like you're saying hopefully some of those things or it's just left in their minds a little bit when they're done reading it whether it doesn't come back to them until like months later or not yeah it's part of why i don't have to specify russell's race i wondered i wondered about that too because i think that's always fascinating we have a default

where it's like you there when people will be like well they didn't say the character was black and it's like well what what did they say well i guess they didn't say their race okay so what did you see them as well white and you're like Oh, so it's just the default. Like everyone, everyone in a story not specified. But like he's not specified. Did you think he's white? Oh, you didn't.

Why not? Yeah. If your default for every character you read is they're white and then you read this character who's not specified and you didn't default him as white. Why? Why? What do you think about? I know. I mean, like, and I don't need there to be an answer and I don't need people to like feel shitty about it.

but it was more just like, I just kind of wanted to like have interesting points that would allow people to just reflect. Yes. That's when I say I like books that give me stuff to like chew on. Like I like things where it's like even after it, you're like, hmm, and then there is that. I'm like, what does that make me think about that? I love that. Even though I'm yawning.

Everybody, I'm just sleepy. It's not, I'm not bored. I hurt my feelings. I know. Yeah, it was a hard book to write. It was very hard. All for layers. Yeah, and I was mad at me for picking in.

It was my fault. No one made me read this book. But I also just felt like I really hope I can land this plane because if I do, I'll be really proud of it. And I don't, you know, to all of your wonderful listeners, like, I don't know if a lot of people are going to read it. I don't know if a lot of people are going to be put off by the setting. I don't know if people are going to be put off by Bard being the first chapter. Like there's a part of me that is worried, right? Because it's not starting with like cute, sweet Kiara who's just like a mom who's like trying to like wear a jumpsuit and like have fun in a barn and like meet other mommies, right?

Yeah. It's a very different vibe. And I hope that people will stay around. I mean, like, guys, don't worry. There's a weekend of Bernie's joke, like, really early in the book. Yes. But it does feel like a big gamble, but I also was like, well, I have this two-book deal. They already have this pitch. Yeah. I have the security to write this book.

I want to. I want this book to exist, like, a lot. I really wanted it to exist because it's important to me. It was important to me to write this book. And I hope that people like it. I hope. And I'm not like, and I hope it sparks a conversation. It probably won't.

I don't need to spark a conversation. I would just love for like one person to go, huh. Yeah. I think next time there's something like on the ballot about being tough on crime, I might actually look into that a little bit more than I did last midterm election. And if one person thinks that, I'm going to be like, done. Perfect. Oh, yeah.

Oh, well, just a reminder that we can all make a big decision later in November this year. So. I know. Yeah. And like who controls this stuff? The district attorney in your county and your city. So when they're up for reelection, look good to them. Yep.

And tough on crime is not actually something that solves the problem. And like, will one person think that after reading this book? Maybe. Yeah. I think there will be people. You'll also probably have some readers who already believe that, I would assume, too. I love them and they should DME. But yeah, it was a big gamble and I'm really grateful to anybody who is like, I'm down for this.

Yeah. It might kind of expand your reader audience too was the other thing I was thinking as I was sitting here. Because where like follow me, I do think it is like you're saying it's very accessible. And there are thriller elements. there's almost horror elements. I mean, there are really. But very accessible to like people who maybe don't read either of those genres a lot. And then I feel like you're very seasoned.

At least you're very seasoned like thriller reader isn't going to be like, oh, no, I can't do something in a prison. So hopefully you'll get some of like those thriller readers as well. And then some other people who are just like, I like this cover. I should try it out. we were talking about like how to market the book I was just like this is not Oz and this is not even orange as a new black

I was like this is like that episode at the end of every season of housewives where they inexplicably go on vacation together and it always ends in a giant mess I was like that's what this is. I agree. The real housewives of, of New York have gone to, you know, the Bahamas.

Yeah. And now one of the, it's much closer to that. It is. It is an episode of Oz. Like, and so trying to do that kind of silliness is like, what if it was, it's like much closer to survivor guys. Yeah. Yeah. And like, it is dark comedy, but it's not a dark drama or like dark psycho drama, basically.

There's, there's dark humor for sure. Yeah. This is a somebody's throwing a glass of chardonnay and someone else's face and now, oh, sad. Like, yes. Hanseling, your reservation on the post cruise tomorrow. How do you do that me? It results for might be of Salt Lake City. Who is the one that was like literally taken from the sprinter bus?

I can't even think of her name anymore and I'm kind of okay with it. But yeah, they've had their fair share of scandals and I'm sure they're in some pay to stay prisons currently. Yeah. So. I like that. Yeah. I was like, it's that. It's what if your freedom was on the line and you suddenly realized you were in the worst group project of your life?

There we go. I'll put that as the log line in the episode notes. Yeah. It's like that's how we pitch it. Like, remember that time you had to do like a really big report in biology on like mollusks? And you ended up with like two of the stoner kids and like one person. who like has mono and isn't in school and you realize like oh my god this is 70% of my grade like I will do the entire mosque yes that's that's been in the middle of mollus will you see her family again

yeah it is well my last question is the title is kind of cool because they're paying to stay they're technically paying back their debt to society for being criminals there's also a murder that could be considered payback. So was that kind of always on your radar for a title or at least like were you playing with those words kind of intentionally? I definitely wanted it to be a part of like how the murder goes down, which would be a little bit of a fun thing for people to find out when they read the book. I am not going to lie to you.

This was not the title of the book when I titled it. Okay. I titled it pay to stay. okay yeah yeah I'll share um my editor uh mega preck at thomas and mercer they were the ones where like we we want to call it payback and at first i was a little bit like i guess like isn't there like a movie called that like i was a little bit like oh it doesn't it doesn't feel as unique as i as pay to stay was in my mind right yeah my mind like pay to stay is a unique setting and it's a unique thing right i was very much there but then literally within five seconds of reading their suggestion

my mind went exactly where you went. Like they're paying back their debt to society. But like, are they really? They're paying back the harm that's been done to them. Like there's all kinds. And also I think like they're paying it back to each other in kind, whether that in good ways or in bad ways. Yes. Yeah.

Like is someone wreaking havoc and then the payback they get is not great in the course of or are they going to get the payback of you stuck your neck out for me and now I'm going to like stick my neck out for you. So much like the cover, my publisher is very much just like, you wrote a beautiful book. And now the marketing is our job and you will not get a green cover with an iguana on it. And that's okay because I think there's a way that they're not trying. I'm sure if I was like, absolutely not. It must be called pay to stay. They would be fine with it. But I appreciate the support that my publisher has given me.

and when they offer me something like that where I'm like, I could be a brat. Yeah. That's a really good title. So like no. Right. Yeah. Like I'm sure it's hard. Well, I know it's hard for some people to get any feedback.

But if you can think of it as like I want this book to do as well as it can, then I think it's easier to not take it personally maybe. And even within like the writing of the book, their notes. I got two. Oh, wow. on the entire manuscript. That's great. Like they're not futsin around with stuff just to like have their fingerprints all over things. Yes.

And so when they do come with a suggestion that they feel really strongly about, I really try to sit with it. And a lot of times I'm like, yeah, cool, let's do it. Yeah. Because my first book was not as well written as this one because I was so used to writing screenplays that they were like, this is amazing. Can you add five chapters? Oh, yeah. It was like, oh, God. They're like four weeks, five chapters.

And I was like, sure. So I was so traumatized by that that I worked so hard on this book. I also was trapped in the cast and couldn't move. So I had nothing else to do. There's that. And it was my right foot, so I couldn't drive anywhere. I worked so hard on this book because I didn't want to have that happen again. I did that.

So when they come back and go, we have no notes. You're like, oh. And they're like, but can we chase the middle? I'm like, yeah. That is so cool. I loved it. I love the title. I do think it works really well on multiple levels that you understand when you go read it. I'm not going to spoil anything for anybody. I do always ask if there's anything you've read recently that you've loved or if you even just have like books that you always recommend to people. I mean, I'm just going to be a.

annoying and say my friend Lindsay Hunter wrote a book called Hot Springs Drive. That's a thriller. That's amazing. She's a dream and I'm very appreciative to her. She blurted this book for me. And I, she's lovely. She's so smart. She's so talented. I got to see her in conversation with Chelsea Beaker and she was cracking me up. Chelsea Beaker, I don't know personally, but I do follow her on Instagram and I'm like, will you be my friend? She's so cool. So that book is. great. I have a lovely friend Matt Goldman. He has another book that just came out in a kind of, he's like a character, Neil Shapiro that's coming back. But he's written these great books

that take place in Minneapolis, which is so fun. And then I'm excited. There's another Anthony Horowitz coming out of the series. And I just love like a British cozy and those books have been really fun because I love the way that like he's kind of I've just like deconstructed the genre and it's making it something. And so I'm excited for that. Yeah. Yeah. And then in the non-fiction world, I am waiting.

I ordered, I pre-ordered a paperback copy of Girl on Girl by Sophie Gilbert, which is about. So good. It's one of my favorites that I read in 2025. It has a special place on the book, the bookshelf. I ordered it thinking I was just having my bookshop. it and then like three weeks later i was like did my book come they're like oh we ordered you the paperback that's coming out in like three months i was like okay that's fine too so i'm so excited to love it it's fantastic the research she did and and you and i lived through it so you're going to have

multiple moments where you're like oh yeah the internalized misogyny jumps out um yeah and like i have a daughter and so like really trying to think like this is not going to be a house like diet culture is not allowed to cross the threshold of this house but also like how do I create healthy eating habits like all that stuff I realize is because if I see one more box of devil's food snack wells I'm going to burn a car um yes yeah it's a little that a slim fast is enough for breakfast and lunch I'm like no it's not um so yeah you want your brain to work you need some food yes so i those are the books that i'm hyped about either on their way or i'm rereading or people that i love who i want to have endless success yeah i love those

recommendations um where you guys are fine sorry what oh no i'm fine with multiple every time um where should people follow you to stay up to date with everything Instagram is the best. I apologize openly to my publicist because I'm so bad about updating my website. It's okay. This is really on a date. But, yeah, Instagram. And I do like dumb stuff.

My whole personal ad campaign is just me like posting funny memes. Yes. And like tagging. I'm tagging Survivor CBS in my funny meme of Christian, like rocking Joe in the hammock. And I can't believe Survivor doesn't want to, you know, pro with you. CBS, which is why I'm not affiliated at all. But that's been really fun because I just really want people to know that this book is, it's a romp. It's silly.

It's ridiculous. There is, there's a, there's a sentence about somebody who's sanitizing their contact juggling balls. And it's just like, oh, God, like, yes. I enjoy taking these books to. really fun places sometimes. Even when the subject matter is very serious. It's also like, that guy's really

bonkers. That's how we sneak in some of the social commentary. You get me. I do get you, and you get me. Well, as of now that this is airing, everyone can go get their copy. So you guys better go do that.

And then you can DM either of us to talk about it if you do read it. I am so sorry that I cannot stop yawning. You're mad at me. I know I'm so angry at her. But yeah. To your local listeners, if you have a book group and they read my book, I will zoom to your book group. Oh, yeah.

I love zooming into book groups. So something anybody's interested in. Either send me a DM, but I have to make sure I check the request because I don't always do that. or send a message to Megan Beattie Communications, who is my publicist or comment on one of my posts. I would love to zoom into a book group.

I did it for a whole time for Follow Me. And it was just like the funnest. I loved it so much. That's so cool. Yeah. If you can't get to her, you can also DM me and I'll tell her. Like if somehow you're not getting through,

just let me know. Because that's so fun when authors get to do that for the readers too. I love it. It's so fun. It's truly just like I will also bring, I'll have my own snacks on my side and we can like eat hummus and talk about books together. Oh, that is so fun. Well, I'm glad we got to talk again.

We're not going to see each other at Thriller Fest this year, but we're going to find somewhere where we will be in person again sometime. Yes, we will be. And I will be. We're having a launch party at Book Works here in New Mexico on the fifth and I'll be at Books on the Bosque. on May 9th. I don't know if this is going to air after that. But yeah, but DME. I want to come to your book group. That would be so fun. Yeah.